foreign thanks for tuning in to Jin and Tantra spirituality with a Twist you once again have Daniel piloting the ship uh Eric is taking some r r time so I hope that he uh is listening Eric Eric can you hear Eric we are Eric just kidding um but uh you know in my place we have uh one friend of the show Priscilla she has joined us before and uh we're we're we are I say we say I say we as if there's more than one person it's me you know I'm glad I'm glad that I'm glad to have you back on say say hi for the audio hi hi everyone yeah yeah um so you know it's been a little while I think last time you were here too we did like a little I don't even know what you call like a little excerpt from the book The Prophet uh by Khalil Gibran and so again today we have uh a little excerpt from a book uh the book is called the book of Awakening and and Priscilla brought this to me the other day when we were talking about doing the episode so um you know it's nice to be introduced to other things which is one of the lovely Parts about podcasting right is that people are going to listen or watch depending on you know what Medium you're you're checking us out on but you get introduced to different topics different ideas different books different things like this and it influences the way that you might think or might be or whatever the case is so uh thanks for coming on and chatting with me today yeah thanks for having me of course you're always welcome um we have some you know some people who've been coming you know now we've been doing this uh we're creeping up on uh year number three yikes yikes uh I know time goes by really quickly um but you know we've had a few people who've been on here a few times now and so it's nice to be able to have some kind of stable uh I don't know number of people who make it on and chat and get to you know explore deeper conversations with them so um thanks again for coming on and thanks again for tuning in wherever you're watching or listening uh we do appreciate it we again we have a number of our you know most of our audiences within the us but there's about like 25 30 that's International um which is cool that we get to have that kind of connection with people all over the world so um thank you for tuning in and for sharing our work so anyways so we'll get started here uh this book or this passage is from again the book of Awakening the author is Mark nepo n-e-p-o as always I'll put the link I won't put a maybe I'll put a link to his you know book in the description but I'll definitely put his name down and whatever and I'll also type out the uh the passage so that if you're reading it you can also kind of see it as we're talking about it but I'll go ahead and read it now and then we will uh we'll discuss uh so it says the title of this little passage is sugar in the tree as someone sitting beneath a tree can imagine the Earth from the above trees or the Earth from above the trees a heart encumbered by reality can know eternity as a boy I spent many hours at Sea on a 30-foot catch my father had built when the sea would get rough I'd go below where the noise and motion of the deep would pound the hull and every toss and Lurch would feel sudden and pointed finding me there my father would told me how Sailors would when feeling sick have always made their way on the deck to look at the Horizon while that doesn't provide doesn't prevent the pitch and drop of waves in a storm it is somehow less upsetting if the larger context is kept in view I have kept this wisdom close to me when pitched in storm in truth whether facing uh cancer or writing the insecurity of repeated rejection or trying to surmount the most profound moments of loneliness my greatest pains and fears have been lessened when I've managed to keep the largest sense of life before me like a horizon this is a difference between Despair and Faith between the narrow point of doubt and the view long enough to sustain all life-giving possibility it seems we suffer more when huddled below and the Eternal and through the Eternal perspective the uh The Horizon of all time and all life does it remove us from our storms it does make things more bearable during the hardest times keeping my eyes on the horizon has helped me to endure such things as loss of a rib loss of a marriage and a job I loved we're staying where we can keep God in view allows the ups and downs to be somewhat predictable it even shows that suffering has its rhythm keeping a larger view can be the difference between thinking life is cruel and knowing that experience is a powerful ocean in ways that truly matter God is always in the Horizon and faith is making our way on Deck despite our pain so there's a number of things here that are you know really interesting that I think are quite apropos of of where we are at this particular time of the year you know uh Priscilla and I are are both acupuncturists studiers and and dare I say enthusiasts of Chinese medicine and Dallas theory is she's got the yin and yang uh picture right behind her you know uh balance of opposites and it is yin and yang for our you know people listening anyways so the the previous episode that I had posted was with Mary Kay and we talked about the season or the celebrate the Yule celebration right and we talked about the importance of the winter solstice and the winter solstice and the Yule celebration going hand in hand uh you know and then in like in a very condensed uh you know obviously if you want to learn more about it just check the podcast out because it's like an hour-long discussion versus my three seconds breakdown of it right now but you'll is like a celebration of the returning of the Sun right and because of that it's sort of like an interesting juxtaposition so in Chinese medicine this is like the water element time this is the time of like deep reflection storage um going inward like hibernation would you would you agree or say something yes no I totally agree I think it's the most like internal part of the year I think that's why like even the holiday spirit like I feel like you know there's like a warming sensation just like this wanting to slow down wanting to like have connections you know like I definitely love you know just like going over to people's house and having tea or just having like intimate conversations around this time of year and there's like a generosity in my spirit that like you know it's it's a deep feeling like it's different than like whenever I'm just like it's the summer and it's super hot and we're just like super busy and we're just like outwardly expressing ourselves you know there's like a lot of reflection that happened for me personally um in this time of year so and you see that nature too with animals hibernating they're going Inward and they're like slowing down and you know it's a quieter time and I think that that is really reflects in us as humans too you know no it's totally true it's a little bit more difficult to experience if you don't have the full kind of Four Seasons you know um but you know for those of us who are you know living here in the in the temperate climate of the U.S right we or even in Europe too um you know they do have four seasons roughly I mean most people do in some extent uh more wetter or drier depending on where you are you know um but this idea of like being in the darkest part of the year you know and then coming through the other side right is kind of like an important uh observation that I kind of wanted to start with you know and that we had this celebration of the sun right this observing of the return of the warmth Return of the light specifically at like the darkest trough of you know of our time during the year that is and people often experience you know because I'm in the clinic you're in the clinic and I think there's a number of clinicians who you know who listen to this you know but we see this on a regular basis right seasonal affective disorder is totally a thing and yeah we're going to say there's not as much sun and that we should take more vitamin D and the studies are very clear on that and that's a good thing to do you know of course um but that doesn't necessarily like give this sort of I don't know ubiquitous past to all of the feelings that people have during this time of year it's like oh it's only related to the Sun the sun's important but it's not the only thing and so I'm you know as we're talking and as we talked before we started recording um this passage sort of I don't know I guess maybe it's more apropos now that we're going to be getting into it than it was perhaps 12 hours ago you know for me anyways and so we'll start with the beginning right and the sentence reads as someone sitting beneath a tree can imagine the Earth from above the trees a heart encumbered by reality can know eternity so this is a really deep deep passage right one that you had you know brought to my attention I told you I had to reread it like eight times because like I the concept of it like reading it like I really wanted to put it together like there's so much concentrated and just this like sentence that like speaks to so many things I won't expand until you're finished but I can talk a little bit about like what it what like my interpretation like my you know how I like um yeah go ahead kind of see it go ahead just this idea that I think like as humans sometimes we forget that like even though we're limited by our own physical bodies that our mind can go places you know like we like just the concept of daydreaming or like dreaming at night like the Mind does things that are like hard to describe and explain you know even in like you know the brain knows everything but it knows so little about itself kind of way of some sort and so we can like I sometimes in um I teach yoga and sometimes whenever I'm teaching my students I tell them I'm like you can throw your mind places you know like you could easily be on your mat in front of me but also doing your grocery list and barely hearing me like yeah you're going through the movements so there's a difference of like Landing your attention and your mind and awareness and so this idea of like this person that's physically sitting beneath this tree but they're throwing their mind above it and using this like creativity and Imagination that the mind is so good at to give them a different view basically and it doesn't necessarily change their position under the tree but they're able to see it differently and um I and it's I think it's relating it to the heart that like even though sometimes emotions and life can be really hard and way heavy on the heart we can sometimes we can throw our mind and see it differently and it doesn't change the situation but it can lighten the load and this the suffering of the heart I believe and that's the way I was kind of interpreting and seeing it so so that's interesting um because the way that I and so as you so you're talking about it as a um as like a macrocosm or microcosm for altering one's perspective you know using the using the ability of the mind to alter one's perspective which is probably more on you know on target with the the overarch overarching theme of the episode which is perspective um but I think the other part for me is actually the the last piece of the sentence what it said where it says a heart encumbered by reality can know eternity which doesn't have anything to do with mind right so like you you reference like sitting beneath a tree you can imagine the Earth from above a tree right so you use this sort of mental imagery to understand perspective to change your perspective right to sort of flip it um but you know what he's referring to here again this is what I what sits more deeply with me it's a heart encumbered by reality can know eternity well you're taking that same technique right except now you're not using it for uh sort of a visual transformation but you're using it for a con a conscious chronological transformation because when we say react when people think about reality at least this is my my guess my interpretation what do you think about right now right and so reality as it sits today because you we can never truly know reality as it sat 100 years ago 50 years ago a thousand years ago but you know reality as exists right now but the one thing you cannot know is eternity we can't know the future either but we maybe can make some predictions you know but the concept of Eternity is only some like ephemeral thing that we can try to wrap our mind around but we can't really do it and yet like in here he's saying that like that potentiality to no eternity is possible by the same means that we would be able to understand that we can know the Earth from above the tree as we're sitting below it so this idea of like now I've mentioned this before on the podcast of like remaining in the water without getting wet being in reality and understanding that this is there's more than just this finite nature yeah you know what I'm saying yeah I mean like I think about sometimes like I mean what you're saying like this idea of you know whenever we're really young like we put a lot of things in our mouth as babies you know um and basically like as adults you can think of anything like right now think about a Lego think about a piece of velcro you can think about licking it and you know exactly what it feels like like you don't technically have to feel it but like there's there's this connection that our mind there's these connections and I think as Spiritual Beings well I believe as Spiritual Beings that have um come into a body form to live on this Earth we can connect back with that like you know we we could possibly know attorney in like eternity and that that feeling um you know because we came from there you know it's like that like it's it's in there somewhere you know it's like how do we connect it though and um sometimes I think about like the brain the heart and the gut so like you know I feel like the mind has that like part of Consciousness or spiritual aspect like that's our connection piece and I feel like the gut you know like they always say like trust your gut I feel like that's like our more Earth brain that like that's how we kind of like live and move through the Earth and then it's like how do we get these two to like come to the heart center and like merge them and like like live with both in a certain way you know and so I really love that um you know I love that the in sentence is is talking about the heart and like how the heart has to be here in reality um but it can also know it can know both it can know down here and it can know about here because it's the connecting piece of them both you know and a lot of times it's finding you know um finding that connection right there not not being too much of an you know walking on the earth not being too much of your head in the clouds you know it's like how do you how do you live from your heart you know yeah no it's a good uh I mean I been you know Eric and I are you know and you and I are probably gonna we'll just start our we'll we'll start our our debate our fight right now you know by my sword yeah yeah yeah yeah I should have brought my uh where are my nunchucks that I need them no but we had Eric and I had this you know discussion about like you know he was saying and how like you know because he's a um a supervisor you know for for clinic for student clinicians and how they're he's saying okay well was you what do you want to work on with your patient that you want to go treat and they're like oh I want to ground people in their bodies you know and that's just like that drove him nuts you know for a couple weeks it drove him really I mean really nuts you know I'm like I'm crazy yeah but but era crazy so not really that crazy you know just like slightly animated I I love Eric I respect him so much I feel like you know whenever you ask me to come on this podcast I'm like I am not worthy like you know I am not as well read or practiced in some of the things that like you know I love listening to you guys talk and I learn so much but like I have felt it in my own life and my own experiences you know and so like I whenever I come here like I don't really have like a book to quote or an old lineage of something to tell you about I can just tell you from like experiencing it myself and then seeing it in other people um and that's like that's all I have you know um and just like other people validating it a little bit is that all you have I mean because you did study a lot lot I know I did I was a studious student for sure no I did but also yeah like all of these pieces also just basically help bolster up my own my own experiences and Truth living with a vulnerable heart and trying to live from the center is a is a really rewarding place to live from you know right um and so uh you know to Eric's like to Eric's thing about being in the body it's like you know for me like I know I'm spirit and I'm body but like um you know it's there's a large percentage of the population that I would guess that like because they can't see things they don't believe it's hard to believe them you know and so like I am in a like my body means that I get to be real for somebody so my my example like I can talk all day or you could read all day about something but until you can really see it sometimes it doesn't that's that bridging piece so my body gives me the ability to access humans and like lead by exp like example basically um and so um you know just trying to tune myself to a higher level so that I can be an example and hopefully that's a bridging gap for someone that says like oh like you know I have questions now are like I want to learn more um so that's what the that's what my body gives me and so like knowing my body and being in tune with it that's what um and being grounded and it helps me be relatable basically in my own idea and opinion no I listen and so you know it's not I I hear you I understand I mean that was that was much of the argument that I gave him yeah you know not not much of it I'm putting my number checks away now no but that like you know I'm in I'm in this Pro or other program is ending but I was in this program for a year and it really is body Centric you know somatic focused and you know they there's a couple things I took away from it you know you and I have talked about this off off Mike before um and some of them are like quotes right one of which the guy said we're in these bodies not for nothing mm-hmm and it's true like that's the V whether you know we're embodied Spiritual Beings if that's what you believe okay but that means that we're in this thing right and so then how is it that that we are to have that kind of experience well that we have to work through the vehicles of our integration and vehicles of our integration I mean like usually sensory inputs right touch taste smell hear feeling so on and so forth yeah and and so we have to kind of be aware of of that part but I think to his point it's like it's also being mindful of that of that Duality essentially that like the heart can know reality but then on or what does it say yeah it could be encumbered by reality but also knows eternity and that you have to be able to do both right that understand and remember that this vehicle has an expiration date what it is I don't know I don't even want to know please don't tell me I don't know to tell you okay good good like I don't I don't have that skill either yeah that's good that's probably safe for most people you know yeah um but then it it has it has an expiration date but then simultaneously you the real you does not and so we have to kind of take this um perspective of keeping both right keeping both realizing the kind of like limited time that we have here in a body in existence in and around other beings in this form at this time but then knowing that like that is not all of which who we are you know so I think the the one part that I could probably take away from his and my conversation to bring here is that that part gets lost so they'll do the body part okay we'll get in and get you feeling so that you're not thinking about your grocery list or your previous traumas or the next day and anxiousness versus depression or whatever but then they're like okay cool we're done we we put you in your body well you know you were already kind of in it we could certainly do a better job of of integrating all the experiences but then we never continue the conversation to say yes but you're in the body but you know there's there's more to it than that so um I think as we you know go through the rest of this discussion that's probably where I'll be looking from and as it is a good reminder you know yeah I'll let I'll let you continue on and yell we'll keep on going through so go ahead yeah um so you know this kid's talking about like uh the sea you know being out at an Open Sea and the kind of like he's like seasick yeah he's like and he wants to go down below and like hide and like you know just be with himself and his dad's like his dad's like you know really encouraging he's like you know like people that have really weathered the storms they come up to the up to the top of the ship and they look and gaze out to the Horizon so yeah I know that's true and I mean even if people have never really been on a ship before or at least a small enough one that can experience um enough turbulence that they become nauseous from maybe we could think of like maybe being on a plane or being in a car what do they always say look out at the Horizon look at the Horizon that that the length the openness in your field of vision will help to kind of like average the the bumps out in the short term you know it sort of dilates time I guess or dilates your perception of it anyways yeah for sure um and that's what he's kind of talking about here right is it's like quote unquote right you know riding out of the storm um and and yeah go ahead I was just gonna say I think you know his point is that like it doesn't necessarily change the circumstance like it's it's not going to calm the Water by any means but it's it does alleviate a little bit of the um like what you're experiencing and I think that next sentence um that you really like that next sentence it just said like um it's the difference between Despair and Faith between the narrow point of doubt and a view hung through to sustain all life-giving possibilities yeah so I'll read I'll read this part so people can have that as a context so yeah uh so it so he's talking about how people come and and look at the Horizon to give themselves a different perspective and the author says I have kept this wisdom close meaning viewing the Horizon close to me when pitched in storm in truth whether facing cancer or writing the insecurity of repeated rejection or trying to surmount the most profound moments of loneliness my greatest pains and fears have been lessened when I've managed to keep the largest sense of life before me like a horizon this is the difference between Despair and Faith between the narrow point of doubt and a view long enough to sustain all life-giving possibility so I this this was the biggest piece I think that I kind of like took away from this whole passage is that like yes changing one's perspective on on things and and I want to get into this part here too so let's do that part first so he is basically saying change your perspective take the larger View it will help you ride out the storm it didn't say it will help you stop the storm or erase the storm or forget the storm it will help you ride out the storm right survive which in order to be able to look back and process and do whatever you first have to make it through you know then we could talk about how well you're doing it but what he's saying is look at the Horizon right so this there's the there's this short term and you know medium or long-term view of riding out the storm with a larger perspective would you agree I agree definitely and and how would you you know when you try to relate this to some of your people you know or for yourself let's just keep it personal you know how you know how would you relate make it real for you uh I mean I think like life has ebb and flows like you know like you're gonna be on a roll going uphill and you're going to be a role on a roll going downhill and if you're really zoomed in you can spiral into like you know really feeling like you're down on luck and really can't pull yourself out but if you can kind of step back you can see that life does have a rhythm to it you know you can kind of like this idea of Faith like I think of like Faith and Hope kind of together this idea that like you can you know you can a little bit Have Faith and Hope and leaning into that like it's not going to go down forever like there's not a permanence of that you know like just like the waves come in to Shore and then recede back into the ocean you know um life has a way of doing that too and so like that impermanence can kind of like give you a little bit of resolve knowing that like you're not going to be there forever basically and and that and it does make it better you know it's like how much longer um you know can I go and I think also that's like the amazing thing about humans is like when you and like when you can have it in your mind that you can zoom out and you know that like you know that there's going to be an upswing eventually like you can then become conscious of like you can become present with like the lows that you're experiencing and you can come out like it strengthens you as a human being you know like making it through some of these things and being aware of them and like having hope to like hang on to I think sometimes can give you some sort of sort of bolster to know that like we are resilient creatures you know we'll make it make it make it real man like give me something give me give me you you know I you know we we do this thing where we talk large but then we talk you know but then we talk real about like kind of a personal experience like yeah like yeah yeah yeah yeah for me I feel like you're fishing from something I feel like we chatted a little bit so are you looking for um like like an actual story of like for me yeah for you that's what I'm saying for you because like like look I'm I'm aware of of like as we're doing this people are going to be listening you know and these not these philosophical discussions are wonderful right yeah but they're full of you know no offense to you or me because I'm doing the same thing platitudes and large-scale things where there's whatever but like I'm a human being you're a human being we're having embodied experiences you know and that you brought this before discussion and so I want to make it real so when you read this and like how did you use this in your own experience or how how have you used this type of um perspective changing I guess mindset in order to help you in in a time in which you needed it yeah of course like I mean I don't I don't know how many like when I became a mom for sure you know like you have all these ideas of like what life's gonna be like when you have a baby you know you're like oh I'm gonna have this beautiful little thing and then when you become a mom like the first week like throws you for a loop and I remember like I wasn't getting sleep and like you're just tired all the time and you try to get on a schedule and all of a sudden you feel like you get on a schedule and then all of a sudden like the next week you're not on a schedule anymore and you know a lot of people that are close to me or that um know me know that my daughter was born with a congenital heart defect that was undiagnosed at Birth and so you know I like had postpartum depression in a whole different way because she was so sick and nobody could help me like no doctors could help me I would take her in you know and um so for 15 months of my life which is a very long time like when you are on a like that like that's also the thing that I would like to note about like um the ebb and flow of life like sometimes people think like if I change my mindset like I could recoup this terrible time in a week or 24 hours sometimes life hands you these lessons that drag on like this lesson in my life dragged on for 15 months like that's over a year of just like literally not getting any sleep my daughter was having very bizarre episodes going paralyzed in her body looking like she was having a stroke neurologically like looking like she was you know fritzing out of some sort and like neurologists looked at her gastrointestinologist looked at her like we had lots of tests run on her you know nobody could give me any answers and then like finally you know um she was diagnosed with a faulty electrical system in her heart and a little bit of um a little bit of a dilated heart basically and so they put a pacemaker in her and so like at 15 months she had a pacemaker and I thought we're finally on the uphill and so we were kind of good from May until December so I had like a little bit of a break being good but then December she cardiac arrested in my house so I'm like literally giving her CPR she's turning blue the paramedics it took them like four minutes to get here and then all of a sudden I'm in the hospital and she's hooked to life support and I'm like back in the dark again you know and there was just a moment like I I had had such a good break with her like on the pacemaker and I was so thrilled just to be like finally getting some help they finally knew that she had a heart condition even though it wasn't perfect and she was on medicine every day and like I knew that like that the the pacemaker might wear out someday I literally had to see the bigger picture I literally had to live in the day and be like she woke up this morning and she's in a happy mood and I'm healthy and I'm enjoying it and I couldn't just like stay zoned into like what if her pacemaker fails what happens and then one day it did and I was there giving her CPR and I was like ready to hit the ground running and and when I was in the hospital I remember being wanting to crawl back into that cave wanting to just like be stuck on the downhill and see such a tiny like narrow like Despair and loss of Hope but um you know I rounded the corner and all of these nurses and doctors they're putting her on life support and they were taking turns giving her CPR because the basically to put on life support you have to cut a hole in the neck and hook two cannulas to the arterial and the venous side to bypass the heart and lungs basically it's this machine that bypasses the lungs and oxygenates the blood for you and it took you know it took a while to do it because this doctor's working with tiny little tools trying to hook these cannulas into these tiny little vessels in her neck and I remember like it doesn't matter how high the doctor was or how low the nurse was everybody stepped up there was like just rotating 30 seconds giving their best hardest compressions and to see like people come together to help with that kind of thing it was so beautiful and it restored My Hope and I thought you know how can I be in a hole right now when everybody's stepping up and I saw the bigger picture and it was so beautiful and I said you know what I'm not going to be selfish if she needs to go let her go but if she's meant to stay let her stay and so like it has followed me for so long because I know what it's like to be stuck in a position where you think that you just cannot get a good card handed to you but also like to be able to see the beauty and other humans gave me so much whenever I was able to look up from my like thing that I wanted to look at when I could look up there was so much hope that came in just this outpouring and um so for me personally yeah like it sucks to look up sometimes and to come to the top deck but like I promise you it's worth it and it helps and it it did like yeah it didn't change the fact that she was hooked to life support didn't change the fact that she ended up needing a heart transplant but it did change my experience I bet you could call any nurse or doctor in that hospital and they will talk about how I mean I was pregnant at the time with my son too so I was like just like rolling on the floor but like I was happy in the hospital I will talk about it being the best experience of my life I had all of this help and they are professionals and they knew what they were doing and I all of a sudden like was able to see the positive like opal got really really happy like once she got on her Berlin heart and we had we waited for five months for her heart but it was probably one of the best experience experiences in my life and like to talk about that ex people are like how can you talk about with a smile on your face I'm like it was amazing I literally um it was like I said I just like there was so much hope in it and just um it was a really it was and it was just a way of looking at it I just I refused to look at it any other way so well and infinite so just for our audience who doesn't know you you know who don't doesn't know the story yeah finish the finish a little story if you know give us the give us up the up to date you know oh yeah so she was on she waited for five months for ahara super pregnant and um she basically they came in on a Wednesday and they said um you know we found you know opal's been we have a heart for her and um so they basically it happens very fast once they get a heart like within the next couple hours they're taking her down and they're arranging everything and then three days later her brother was born so she got her heart on the 24th and then 27th her brother was born and with this like really amazing experience and um she is three We Came Upon three years post-transplant so she's doing amazing she is um a little she'll be six in January and I mean yeah she's just an amazing human being and like also that's like another reminder every day like that's why I come up that's why I climbed at the top of the ship every day like I you know I want to it doesn't stop me from wanting to crawl into a hole sometimes but you know whenever I see her I remember that it's really powerful to look up and to keep your eye on the bigger picture so thank you for sharing yeah I've definitely mentioned um you know you and and this story a couple times on the podcast before uh but I wanted you know I wanted you to come on and talk about it but in a way that was natural for you and so that's exactly what I wanted you to talk about because yeah yeah so thank you for thank you for doing that you know I didn't tell you and you know but like this is what I did because so why it matters for many reasons one is that like that that move that understanding that like the bottom is only part of the the path to me and then knowing that's faith right the opposite of that is believing that the bottom is the end yeah that's despair yeah no totally like you know what I'm saying so if we're looking at a sine wave or like a you know a sine wave right like a u yeah if you know that it's going to come back up if you believe that it's going to come back up this is your faith in that that it does that the cycle does do that part you know you know so I I had a home birth with opal and um I transferred from like Western care like a little bit late to finding a midwife and because I transferred so late there was no midwives that um birthed out of a hospital that would really transfer me to so I found a lady that um was gonna birth and like would come to my home basically and um anyway uh like there was like this thing of like you know for me I'm always thinking about that I'm always like you know I think we often think about death being the end or whatever but I'm never thinking about an end like that I I definitely am always thinking of an upswing so like you know if Oprah would have left me in the hospital that day I was already prepared to like learn the lessons and move forward to like a new blooming like this idea that like death also brings life of something you know and it doesn't mean that it would have been easy you know right um but like I definitely you know I've had these conversations before that experience in my life happened you know I've had this idea because I remember talking to Tyler who's my husband and I was like you know I just want to let you know like when we're in a home birth situation like I want to talk about all of it you know like what if like if we can't make it to the hospital and we would lose like can we go on together as a unit if we lose a child like with this decision can you go on raising a child without me if I you know like these possibilities like even though there would be like a loss can you think and visualize something new that would become of it and would you be okay with that because I wanted him to be on the same page with this decision this idea because I do think it's a it's a concept that like we don't think about sometimes and um I wanted to make sure that he was like in that kind of like mind thinking that just because an end is here there can be a beginning and can you live with that beginning like are you emotionally prepared to live with that begin that beginning of something so and so um but yeah like um you know I think we even you and I talked about at the table you know like death happens in nature all the time but there's always a rebirth you know like the leaves fall off the tree in the winter but then they bloom again in the spring it doesn't always mean that there's a permanent end of something which I think we think of as humans because it's like for us you know a lot of times we think like once our body's over you know if you're not into the practice of believing that there is an eternity or that something goes on and can transfer somewhere it's kind of the you know it's the end and yeah we've talked about this in like this yeah you know idea they call this biological materialism right yeah yeah materialistic view in that like when it's done it's done but like actually you know not just in Buddhism but like in the laws of thermodynamics energy cannot be created nor destroyed so something can never come from nothing it is not it it is not possible for that to occur something has always come from something so the idea of nothing is still a thing right that that that that an estate itself is still a thing and people do this I'm gonna find the right um uh that definition for this thing but we talk about a lot in the show uh called reification um oh that's ratification not what I'm not exactly what I'm looking for but that the idea of reification and ratification is kind of like making something I'll get the right definition here in a second but reification is making something that is not um solid solid right so somebody I don't want to call it I've idle idolizing because it's not but it's like you take this idea of nothing right I'm going to disappear into nothing well what's nothing exactly nothing isn't anything right you can't make nothing into something unless you do it in your mind and yeah what do we do when we think of nothing everyone's going to do something a little bit different because of their understanding and language and you know um but like we're gonna make it dark empty cold you know what I'm saying something like this that's nothing but you can't have something that is born that's something that is born from that and so the the the sort of like I guess faith that there is something larger right that this is a choice that you made to move forth right when you talked about it with your husband and then through that process of going through it with your daughter is the it's not the realization it's the pre it's the Practical implementation of this kind of belief through and through right and and you know you you had a little bit of uh I I don't want to call it a Christian upbringing uh but a little bit right no I I definitely did I went to for sure I was part of a non-denominational Christian church and I went with my I was very close to my grandparents you know and my mom was very adamant about taking us you know so we would go two times on Sunday and on Wednesdays for you know since I was little you know multiple times a week and I mean I remember like whatever you connect with whether it's God whether it's Source whether it's love whatever your idea of this like higher being that you connect with you know um for me I remember sitting in church and feeling something like it was like interesting because it's like I could hear the sermons and I could understand the lessons but there was like a feeling Sensation that I was like curious about that I could like feel you know and um and so through my through my own Journeys and my own practices and learning you know like I have come to understand it differently than my church upbringing or whatever but um it's very very much the same there's a relief in leaning into something bigger you know and because it can carry it can carry heavy things much more efficiently than we can um and so like whenever you can put your faith and trust in that and it's easy to say like put your faith and trust in that but I remember like literally I remember my daughter got pulled off of the um the life support machine because they thought that her heart was strong enough and they wanted to give her a little break from life support because the kidneys really like a pulsing sensation and the Machine she was on is a continual flow so it just it just pulls the blood and pushes it back in and it's continued flow and so they don't really like to keep kids on it for anybody on it for very long and there's a risk of of having a stroke basically you know there's all these clotting factors because the blood's going through all these plastic tubings so every 30 minutes you know there's like multiple nurses in the room and they have a huge flashlight and they're checking these tubes looking for any kind of like clotting material fibrous material sticking to them it's very intense and um you know everyone when they're if they call it ECMO machine when there's an ECMO machine in the room like everybody's hands on you know and so they pulled my they pulled my daughter off of it and they thought that she could um you know rest and maybe get better and her heart would be okay or whatever so they could figure out the problem and I mean very quickly she started going downhill basically and um she started going downhill where like she was basically losing um heartbeats so she was her heartbeat was getting really slow and they basically had to again come in and start giving her compressions and I just remember watching like I ran to the room and there were so many people rushing in that I couldn't get into the room to be with her and whenever I finally did get next to her her black toe her toe her big toe was as black as my shirt right here she was losing oxygen and her fingers and toes were turning gray and black and I will never forget looking at her toe and just thinking like this is like this is it like this is the end or whatever and um you know like they had they were they had a rush it like the doctor that put on ECMO wasn't in the hospital at the time time so basically like a um not a trainee but like one of the um the intern people basically had that was like trained to do it but also like you know only in these situations would he do it you know like he's rushing in so we all made room or whatever and he started the operation while the other doctor was like racing to the hospital to get there and I just like I remember thinking like there was a moment I was like no like in my head I am absolutely making a pact with the higher source that says like I will not be selfish to keep her here if you want her take her and I was like because I was so conflicted whether to fight for her or the release you know as a mom like it was so it was so much weight and pressure and whenever I released it like the pressure that came off me was so like physically I could feel it come off of me I knew it was out of my hands at that point and um I just I heard a nurse yell like at the top of her lungs backboard which means that they were trying to like give her compressions and they needed a backboard to support her in the soft bed so they could give her efficient compressions and I remember hearing the backboard and I that and it didn't even like it didn't even bother me physically because I just knew it already released it I said if there's just just take it like it's out of my control and um you know I just sat there like in silence and I was just like just sitting there I was like calm and very comfortable and then finally the doctor came out and said you know we didn't lose a heartbeat on her she just got really low so we were giving her supplemental compressions she's stable now she's back on the life support and like at that time I like knew I was like thank you for bearing the weight during this time and then also like letting me know that it's like time to just dig my heels in and go you know like I just have to run downhill as fast as I can to get back uphill and just and just know that bigger perspective was gonna basically we were gonna get to transplant you know and so um yeah I just um I think like I think definitely you know I can say all day like oh you just have to lean into something bigger or whatever but like you just have to know that like even if it means that you might lose something or something's taken away um it's hard to see how that could give you something in return or be a blessing you know down the road um but it can be so but even if you're not like leaning into something bigger as you say like you can certainly take uh a macro view of things yeah you know and like absolutely step out of the intensity of the moment and understand that like if you watch a movie for 10 seconds in the middle of it you're probably gonna think it sucks you know yeah no that's and that's what it is like yeah totally you know if we can condense Our Lives into a movie you know we would see that there's an arc and there's these up and downs but like you know it's not as bad as like you know just zooming in on it and yeah when I say lean into something bigger I just mean like bigger as in like step like bigger as in stepping back and making sure yeah whatever it just yeah like making yourself smaller and understanding that like life goes on you know life is going to go on without me I mean and and so like I I wanted to come from I wanted you to give your experience because we're I I want to make it very clear that like I'm not minimizing people's experiences or their perception of their experiences whether that be you know all the nasties in the world you know the sexual assault victims and all the different kind of physical assault victims and you know poverty you know like I'm not no we're not ignorant you know we're not we're not saying that but you know you giving your story as we talk about like experience as the teacher right so there's various types of teachers that can be in this world I mean we talked earlier about physical beings you know being one version of them we have an episode uh I think it's called like what's your type that different to multiple types of teachers um but the physical being being one of them books and writings and whatnot being another one an experience being another one you know um that you're coming from a real place and that a very real place of literal life and death you know of your of your firstborn your first child you know what I'm saying so um and there's nobody arguing with me you know in terms of like whatever but I but I I understand like if I was listening to this I'd be like yeah but what about people with real well you had real I mean I've had real too everybody's had real and and so what we're saying is coming from people who had real this helps yeah this is this is the thing you know like we're literally in the middle of the season of darkness in the bottom of the water and what do we do we celebrate the return of the light right as yesterday was the the winter equinox and so today was if you know one second longer than even more light than yesterday you know but like it's that again it's that focusing on the the or the remembrance of the full swing of the Ark right and that to me that's Faith right you know that Arc is going to continue regardless of how it's going to look it will it will foreign yeah it like like everybody that's the thing like ever you never know what someone is like indoored or what they're what they're dealing with or like I said like that's what I was also trying to say like you know sometimes you know we don't know how long that downhill is gonna be or how like right what it's going to cost us you know like sometimes I think we can get in our own heads about like oh I mean it was hard for me I was bitter for a long time because I was like you know I practice yoga every single day I eat healthy I went to Chinese preventative medicine school for heaven's sakes like I spent years of my life learning like about the body and how to keep it at its utmost healthiest like of all people like I don't do I don't do drugs I'm not really a big drinker I don't smoke of all people like loser like my like for a long time I was in the mindset like my baby should have been healthy you know like sure like you know and to come out with this undiagnosed heart thing whenever it doesn't run in my family you know it's not like a you know there's like a predisposition to like some sort of genetic thing or whatever or like congenital thing no um and uh it's actually you know I think it's actually the like the number one common defect in babies you know congenital heart defects are um the number one in babies but like um like in just my I couldn't wrap my brain about I was really bitter about it for a long time and that was part of like that 15 that grueling 15 month just like mentally disturbing part of my life you know and to come to the other side from it so like I know sometimes you know it yeah it's not I know you're not trying to minimize for people because sometimes it really does feel like you know life is super unfair and like you know why did this person get two bad cards like literally my entire deck sucks you know like right um and it can and it can feel like that it really does and I think that's like um I also like in a weird jacked up way I really like those times in my life because I'm like oh I was like there's a lesson here and like they're the most beautiful Essence and you you know and like my people that are close to me and my tribe know that like you know whenever whenever that gets like really rough and I'm thinking like this is the worst that's when I'm for sure climbing to the top deck and I'm like ready for the lesson you know because it's so beautiful like some of the most beautiful um things have have I've been I've experienced on the other side and I carry those lessons with me every day and um I'm like super grateful and so I think that yeah this reading just really resonated with me about this idea of like you know sometimes I just want to crawl into a hole and I just want to be like this sucks poor closet or a closet for sure and this like sucks so bad and then but then like I feel like there's so much joy if you come out and um and are uh just like like I said just allow yourself to um to see a bigger picture and a more a more hopeful Horizon you know for sure I want to say thank you for sharing again yeah no problem you know and I'm glad that we made this about you and your story because I've wanted to have that you know here for quite some time and uh it's taken you know numerous episodes and you know it wasn't even on my radar I'm so glad like I mean when you're trying to pull me I was like oh you I'm a cranial sacral therapist too you know I practice and we had talked about talking about like other things about this side I was like are you trying to like I was like no that's not but I don't feel like that's what you're asking for right now so yeah no it feels I feel joyous when I talk about it because like truly like um you know to make it through something like that it um you know and I and I feel like if circumstances were different I I feel like I really could be this joyous in a different way because I really like I said when I released that decision you know I was I was happy to accept whatever came and I was fully able to let it I was ready to let it go you know and um and that kind of Detachment has allowed me to like love so much more in my own life and like um whenever I see her like every day it's really um she if you would ever meet or if people ever meet her you know she's very she's very Joy she's like the embodiment of joy and um excitement and it's really cool to see so but you're still her mom I'm still her mom and she can still be a pain in the ass even oh my God all right so I'm just saying you know like there's that balance right yeah [Laughter] yeah so no I I also yeah there's a fine line of being a mod man because it's like you know I don't think she's Perfect by any means in a way of like being an angel like you know and she's definitely can manipulate and play and I tell all of her teachers and we have a whole team at her school that like really um unites to like help care for her make sure she's safe basically and um I I tell them all the time I'm like you know don't let her get away with anything don't take it easy in her you know she's I used to like I used to have this thing and I was like you know I'd say she's lazy you know because I'm like oh she just gets so tired and she kind of is lazy but I wanted to have like more positive wordage on it so I told every I was at a meeting the other week and I was like you know I was like she's not I was like I want to use the word lazy but I think that's negative so I'm gonna say she is very efficient right like very efficient so if you give her something to crutch onto or use she's gonna be like I could conserve my energy here and I will just lean up against this or not do the work or ask to be carried or wagoned around you know like um she's funny like that and so um anyway yeah she's she's still I'm still her mom they're they're right there's the there's the balance yeah there's a balance so even even though you're still staring at the Horizon giving yourself the the sense of expansiveness the ship is still is Still rocking yeah I'm still like I'm still like whenever I want to stay up till one in the morning doing a weird hobby like hula hooping or painting something I'm just like she's like I gotta get up I must I like it doesn't say it doesn't help me sleep in like I still sleep to five sometimes you know so yeah I still have to live in this world I'm just uh yeah totally awesome well listen I think this was a a great conversation uh I'm glad this is totally unexpected this is not where we talked about going and it's but it's not what we talked about going but you know I was like a little not resistant but you know I had my little things I didn't I was wonder why you see me like a little I was like why don't you send me a little bullet point thing that like you know because that's not that's not that's not Daniel man Daniel likes to have a little bit of structure but he'd be he'd be on that spontaneous type thing because this you know the beautiful part and I don't you know truth be told so sorry audience um I don't listen to a ton of podcasts um I I do mine and then I listen to some bits and pieces here and they're more more audiobook I like a little bit longer form thoughts and so I try and and merge those two together because to me conversation that's Lively is entertaining conversation that's um educational is also entertaining but then people who speak from their you know from their own sense of self with education and experience that to me that's the Pinnacle you know that's like it's as high as you can be from my perspective and once the mic comes on as Eric talks about this you know once the little blue light pops on you know you have your notes you could try and stick to it but magical things happen and I feel like there is a power for for the narrator and the audience to hear real stories of transcendence you know and we've talked about this with the number of our our guests before Joni Osborne and Lady India and Keith Brewer lots of people you know Mary Kay In the first couple episode first episode you know so um you know we can add you to the list of um you know inspirational real life tales for people to to draw from you know well thanks for being so amazing at like directing the flow of conversation and um yeah just leading thank you for having me on so of course it is truly an unconscious skill that I cannot take right for those party shots before we uh bid I do another French word um no no thank you well thank you uh thank you for coming on for sharing uh definitely I'm glad to have you on and have people hear your story um you know for people who want to uh you know send us an email or reach out to Priscilla for any reason just give me an email at gin and Tantra gmail.com you can hit us up on uh Instagram and Jen and Tantra leave a comment in the YouTube section um you know or leave a review in the Apple podcast section that helps the show bro uh you know as always you know like comment subscribe share with people blah blah blah you know we get tired of hearing that thing but for those of us who are on this side um it really helps the the show grow and um you know it's motivating you know see to see that people are listening and and you know then being affected by what it is that someone's doing I think for us speaking as practitioners and as people who love to share you know from a compassionate place it really is lovely to know that like something that I would do or say would have some kind of positive effect and that's the intention that always has been and it always will be so um for Priscilla and Eric and whoever else is on our team that I don't really know about uh this is Daniel we'll catch you in the next one peace