[Music] hey fellow G&S those of us who like our spiritually with a Twist so we are working on our one of our little series at g&t we like our series we do we'd like them and we're doing um Jung's answer to job and we got to like you might say the climax point of this whole thing about Jesus oh God at the climax Point okay so we're going to Jesus and um and we wanted to like talk about what Yung thought about Christianity and we thought we'd do the the more difficult part worse which more difficult part first which is where he saw the problems of Christianity uh so this is our second part of this episode the first part took an interesting twist Daniel was just saying don't take this episode too much off the off the rails but it's G to go off the rails immediately no Danel did the great thing last time which was he described the enlightenment state right and uh described it in context of like this is how he sees Jesus at the end of this whole long description I couldn't help but chuckle because I was like yeah that's our Jesus that's our guy it's not my uncle you know uh Pete's Jesus no it's not or the neighbor's Jesus but that's our Jesus you know and then like took the episode in this place of like talking about finding your version of the spiritual figures that speak to you right yes yep or maybe creating your own you know maybe it's like that right and I had to I have to say Daniel that at the end of you know that day I was thinking about I was talking about Buddha and the whole idea like a like a tantric Buddha I'm just into that kind of Buddha sure I don't want like an aesthetic Buddha you want the Saucy I like a saucy Buddha I like a little bit of a of frisky Buddha no like we've talked about it before but there's a great line in one of the Buddhist stories where you know the King asks Buddha like U how it go again oh in this Rose Apple Garden so full of delights if I would have to like give up the sense Pleasures to experience Enlightenment that I could never do gotama or something I'm paraphrasing yeah yeah yeah he wouldn't do it he wouldn't the king is like no I'm not gonna do it but was like oh that's how it is and then he teaches them all the tantas right that's one of the tantric Back stories yeah so we were talking about that and I thought Okay so I mean there's Jesus's like that too so I went and I looked and I pulled up the Gospel of Mary magdalin which I think we can do an episode on right yeah we should for sure follow and in that episode The the passage is kind of missing a little bit but like there's no doubt that Mary Magdalene and Jesus kiss oh in this in this thing and they're some kind of Partners you know they're some kind of spiritual partners and my mom loves this book I don't know why she's not Christian at all but she thinks this is so great she just loves this thing um and uh and so I I went and I found like a translation of the episode by the exact guy I brought up in the podcast is Robert Price this biblical scholar I was like I didn't even know he did this huh and I've had some luck with sort of like finding spiritual materials lately had like a very deep soul soul connection with someone I think they have a deep soul soul soul to soul connection yeah all of a sudden the spiritual thing start popping out all over the place you know very conveniently so um yeah so I found it so I'll go through and I'll do that but I was just thinking yeah that's the kind of like you can find your Jesus that you like right was the Christmas theme of the episode in the end do you have anything else you want to say about with that I don't know it seems like schroer should be playing the piano then Jesus and Mary magdaline are making out I don't know uhuh you got anything more on that one I just want to bring it up because I I I want to propose the episode to you and just kind of talk about that little piece no no that's I mean I think everything I said pretty much felt good when I was saying it last time I definitely uh you know for those who who didn't see it that episode I think I T titled it not enough Jesus's so um you know feel free to to check that one out if if you haven't yet but yeah I was very uh I I don't know I was very proud of that because I feel like we don't always get a chance in a little bit of a longer form opportunity to express how it is that we're feeling with things that have deep meaning but don't always come up in conversation and to be um listened to and inquired about how we feel about these kinds of things has a large value so it had value in the moment for expressing it but then it also has had value all week as I have talked to other people about it you know and it it uh it's nice that there was I was talking with the patient and they were mentioning how a friend of theirs was born Catholic married a Jewish guy and their daughter is about to get bought Mitzvah and the parents were like well if you do that we're not going to speak to you anymore and so the parents are sort of kept outside of the religious practices of the family you know and they're kind of on the outside and you know and that they're doing the bot Mitzvah thing which is kind of like confirmation like we talked about last week you know and I said and I told my patient I said well what's funny about this is that neither party husband wife or parents are practicing their own practice that deeply anyways you know like of them really like are serious of the Christianity or the Judaism that serious about it in my opinion we don't take we don't do hot takes too much but in my opinion if you're really practicing what it is that you claim to practice you will have overcome the ignorant and small-minded divisions between you and other people especially ones of your kin and to choose um separation over love shows your lack of practice and lack of desire to overcome that small perceived separation which means to me you are not practicing William Blake says something about like if your Desir is able to be those whose desires are able to be are able to be overcome didn't have that strong of a desire in the first place something like that right yeah it's like weird on that because it does fit into what we've been talking about I with the kids I watched during the past week um you my daughter's back from France and we watched uh are you there God it's me Margaret or whatever this thing is I think it's on based on this old Judy Bloom book I don't know if you know this movie or that came well it's weird because the story is exactly what you're talking about it's a Jewish man who marries the uh Christian woman the daughter is the main character that's Margaret I think is the name of the character and um and the whole family shatters over this yeah you know the grandparents on the on the mom side the Christian side like disown the to S their daughter basically say we're never going to talk to you again over this and then you know I think on the other side of the family the Jewish mom is very kind of there all the time kind of hoping that she's going to entice her into Judaism the daughter's kind of allowed to make her own choice and it was funny I didn't expect it to be that deep of a movie but gave part of it away but I mean I think you would just get that in the general description and it's this question speaks to you if you're watching and like you're like well that's interesting I mean it was a lot deeper than I thought you know I thought it was just G to be like a Coming of Age story you know about this uh this girl but it got to this place where they were asking that exact question I'm looking at the behavior of the adults and they they're not not able to solve the their problems right right yeah um well I guess that gets us into like you good should I move into the let's do it Dan and I had a conversation beforeand like let's get this episode started let's not have like a 15 minute like rambling conversation let's get the episode in so anyways I don't know how long this was but we'll see about 10 minutes failed anyways missed again that was worth talking about that [...] yeah yeah yeah so okay so the point of this episode guess is about an observation that Yung makes which I I think is or what seems to be a theme throughout his work observations and themes that are like seem kind of prophetic prophetic to me yeah um which is it basically says and I think it's partially his experience from his own life where you know he grew up in this religious family when he started questioning his father about things he realized his father did didn't have any answers and was just basically saying okay you just got to take all these things on faith I suppose but he also really suspected that his father didn't really have that Faith anymore even though his father was a you know a pastor right J definitely had the sense of like no he doesn't believe in what he's doing not really he's trying to make himself believe in it but he doesn't and I think his young matured he started to look at like okay is this myth of this culture still serving me we talked about that and he decided that that wasn't the case but I think as he got to the end of his life he started writing some pretty even more strikingly honest things to my eyes and he started really talking about the idea that if the myth doesn't serve the culture anymore it's going to break you know and the problem with this myth is it it's it's so much based on the kind of a faith that it it can't it can't stand up anymore it's like too old in a way right yes needs to evolve and people aren't letting it evolve it's like stuck so the people who are are maybe the truest people who are you know the True Believers but there're kind of in an older version of this that won't move forward and then I think he does think that this is going to create a kind of an atheism and the culture will kind of split so I don't know you have initial reactions on that I'll talk about kard for a second but I should throw it out to you to see I mean what do you think of that whole set of ideas I think that seems true to me I think you know we were talking about it last week you or last time I think you put it in a slightly different way I think that you said that it causes a it causes a duality yeah I think that's true right and I think then that then then then you said that that some of that Duality if I'm remembering right uh will be filled with materialism well I think it was materialism and also like probably atheism both I think Yung is saying yeah I guess those are two different points okay probably both true right when you say materialism are you looking at it more or like not materialism like a belief that there's just the material aspects of the Universe I mean for me like consumptionism you mean that too right both yeah I think that's true I think both of those things both so as the and so then for people just to kind of make sure that I'm because I'm pulling my thoughts in and I want to make sure everybody's with us the the split at least in my mind is that the the sort of myth of divinity if we're going to call it that in the in the culture in this culture or in any culture eventually will fade based on people's lack of practice or internal desire to do so or presence however and then that will lead to like a rift in things in the myth itself and then within the culture and then this sort of materialism will fill the void if you will and that materialism and I mean when I say materialism I mean biological materialism so the idea that we are only matter and matter is here then when the lights go out matter dissolves and goes back into the ground and then more happen and that's the end of that that is one and then the other part that came to me last time and that's why I wanted to show it for this conversation I also think consumerism a a different form of materialism fills that void um especially in the industrialized world and I I say this because I have some you know friends who we've been on this on the podcast before Remy and Ashley and Remy whom we've been on before they have their Center in Mexico Kuman Kaaya has said that he has some people whom he knows that are down in Mexico you know don't have a lot of money live in these very small places and you know are week to week basically right with they're working and they don't have a lot but the one thing they many of them have is a huge television you know and he's like it's totally backwards it's totally backwards you know it wasn't where I expected that story to go I thought it was gonna be but they have the simple faith of their culture I thought I was gonna go to that place no not like they have a huge inner Faith instead it went they have a huge widescreen big ass TV I wasn't expecting that twist right and that you know and but and and you know so I can't say for sure if that's taking the place of their you know Mayan roots or whatnot you know but it is present and more people than not in the world I think would mind having more things obviously that means more niceties in their life but for me I don't know how there there was a somebody who I I like who and I for Naval ravikant who was a you know millionaire and who's been on has his own podcast and has been on a couple different shows and he said he's definitely he's a wise person made money in life and says you know of course I'm chasing Enlightenment but I'd rather do it in a private jet and for me those things sit in juti position to each other because if you're spending your time making money in order to be able to afford a private jet then I don't know how you're going to have the time to chase Enlightenment if we even can call it a Chase do you know what I'm saying so this idea of a split leaves a void and the void then is for me is means of self- soothing or you know some kind of like mental habit of of Desire Robert Thurman will say that you're when you see commercials and things that you are shown to you you're meditating on desire and so for me that desire FS the you know FS the need for fulfillment or closeness to something you know gives you a little pop and that then that's so that's why I say I use that term materialism all of that to say that yeah it's interesting because like you were talking about your experiences with the episodes different having conversations with people after the last one yeah um I was having a conversation with a patient today about the one the last one that was I think the one before that referencing wisdom and stuff like that yeah and she had listened to this one and she said she sent it on to a bunch of people because she thought it was like a really important conversation I was like oh that's great yeah as we say and then I started telling her about the one that we recorded that's you know the one that's going to be uh not enough jesuses is that what it is yes that's right um and uh I started and she was like oh I can't wait to listen to that one and it was hard because you you know you have honest conversations with people honest conversations with patient it was sort of like there throughout our entire interaction with one another this point which I made at the end where I was like okay I know you run your own small business and she felt a little uncomfortable with part of what was being said because she I think she felt like the way our conversation was going I think she thought one of the undercurrents of it was that she had concern with money and at some point I said no you don't have concerned with money I know you don't it's not the money I was saying you have responsibility right right for running this business and it eats up a lot of your time I know that you just need enough money to let you have a vacation in the Caribbean occasionally right and I was like there's nothing wrong with that you know you can enjoy your life um so it was funny we were talking about a similar set of issues but not a Jet right you probably don't need your own jet you could just get on like just buy a ticket and fly down there on nice commercial thing you know uh so I think she had that she was trying to figure out that exact same question where's her line with that yeah how much material stuff does she need I think we were referencing the king earlier King Indra huti uh who you know talks with Buddha and basically said no like the people in my culture like they want to enjoy their lives but I also want to have them have the opportunity to be enlightened right and so I mean the whole point of that tonric story is like yeah you can enjoy a life and experience things that are enjoyable that in a bizarre way what some has to offer which is enjoyable you know s thish this term for like the swirling Waters of life that go all kinds of crazy chaotic ways yeah but you know there's enjoyments to be had you know that and I think that's been one of the themes of the show from the beginning like how do you structure a life within the samsaric world yeah where you can like experience the pleasures of things that probably realistically people aren't going to give up they're not going to give up the pleasures you know that life has how do you transform those Tantra transforming yeah into experiences that are more building towards Enlightenment that's been like one of our projects like from like episode one in this right and you know whether it's you know L yes talking about this and his introduction the Tantra which is kind of a great conversation about this yeah you can enjoy things right you just have to be able to enjoy them in the context of them building towards your Enlightenment yes that was the conversation I was having with my patient I was just like yeah you can have a lot of things you can have relationships with people that can be enjoyable hopefully a lot of times they end up being a [...] misery depends on the relation necessarily so but we can be honest about it uh but you can have relationships with people you can have like kids and kids can be wonderful right yeah you know uh you I love uh I love uh you know the soulmate connections with my kids that we've talked about in the episodes that could be very meaningful but it's can be driving towards this Enlightenment yeah at the end of the conversation with the patient I was kind of like okay I think the idea is that you can enjoy the world but you have to have the underlying drive towards something deeper you know and then like I could say for personally for me that's like I want to be an enlightened person I want to try to do this thing what you were describing last week if that's a thing right I want to work towards that right you know and that gives a meaning towards my life and you know what hadn't occurred to me Daniel I was like I said to the patient I was like you know that's my refuge in my life the thing that gives hope she brought the word hope you know people need hope and she was talking about I think patience that she sees you know through you know some of her spiritual practice and I was like Yeah well my hope my My Hope in Refuge is to work towards this Enlightenment and that always is the thing that fills the space for me yeah even as life goes through its ups and downs we all have our maybe we have our heartbreaks and our moments of disappointment and so on right but the fact that there's this Enlightenment thing always gives me this hope and I hadn't thought about that like that Tak refuge in your own enlightenment idea sure that sometimes they have in the tantas that your own future Enlightenment is your Refuge right that's what you're working towards you know that's a good thought yeah um okay let me like let me uh say something about kard I guess sure I'll get your reaction and then we'll double it back if that's cool with you yeah so all right so Yung obviously knew all these philosophers and one of the philosophers that you know he would been familiar definitely would have been kard now how many people know too much about kard probably nobody right you really have an interest in this so he's kind of a Danish philosopher I've been to Copenhagen now there's kind of statues and streets named after him over there it's kind of an interesting thing you know when you know someone like that you're like oh he's everywhere here if you want to boil down what he was trying to say on at least part of what he's trying to say is that part of the reason that he believes in Christianity is because it's impossible to believe in there a kind of an absurdity to it but he says That's The Power of it you know paradoxically right for him as a Christian person so he'd be like what you call a Christian existentialist his attitude is I choose to believe in this old myth even though I know it doesn't make sense for me as a modern person to believe in it because it's asking me to believe in things that I probably can't fully if I just trust my own reason I have to he's the person who actually coins the phrase leap of faith it's him it comes from him and so he says you make a leap of faith and you go and you say okay I'm going to believe that 2,000 years ago some person was incarnated on the earth as a Divinity and died for my sins and you know kind of a very conventional take on Christianity not yours from last week right and he says like you know it's really hard for a modern person to believe in that but you know that's what I'm going to do as this Christian existential person I'm G to make that leap of faith and believe in this thing like despite its unbelievability or maybe with its unbelievable being unbelievability being part of its power or something sure so I just want to bring up the idea because you definitely would have been familiar with this this kind of willingness to make this leap of faith but even when I was talking with my patient I was like you know it's hard to it's hard for lots of people to do that you know this is a very rare kind of person who wants to take this attitude and do this thing for the most part I think that like it just just doesn't become tenable anymore for people and and so then they're put into that that what I actually have it in the notes this pathological dualism you know like you can't hold these two ideas in your head at the same time it's like impossible right right you can't like be a 21st century rationalist person and then you know hold on to this idea that you know a couple thousand years ago in like some country I probably had never been from some books written from someone who never met this person you know this thing happened and and I've watched people try to do this but I think that's what Y is pointing out I want to bring the subject out because I I was I'm really curious what you think about it but I remember talking to one of the RNs I worked with sure and she was saying you know the reason I'm Christian and she was like holding on to it like so desperately the reason she was saying she was Christian in this much more Orthodox way was because you know Jesus came back from the dead and I was like okay and I was never you know I'm a polite person with spe people's spiritualties we try to be polite here too I would never say her you know no you know I'd say okay that's cool I respect that you know You' be my answer and you we we liked each other you know and you had a good working relationship and we're you know work friends and whatever I would never any way say anything that would be disrespectful to her beliefs but at the same time of course you're kind of thinking okay well there's like tons of old stories when we talk about last week we were talking about like does Jesus exist or not exist is he a Mythic character we kind of brought that issue up you know wasn't expecting it but came up in the episode and I thought that was cool to talk about too right right and I was just like there's tons of stories where people raise come up from back from the dead sure yeah there's tons of other stories that are impressive so to make your whole Faith have to hinge upon this thing it's going to be hard for your rational mind to do that if you're a c guard person you're saying okay [...] it I'm doing this because it's a leap of faith right I'm recognizing that this isn't a rational thing to believe it's not going to satisfy my rationality right that part of me it's not going to satisfy but his attitude is okay [...] it I'm gonna do it anyways right right because that's part of the emotional power of it you know the spiritual power is making that leap maybe you can do that but I think for a lot of people that's just not going to hold up you know and certainly when you start doing it on Mass like a you know like the societal question of it right I think within the society it's going to be really hard for that to hold up but I wanted to just bring that question up and see what you thought about that I you have opinion about the car guard thing at all or you know I think no it's a great point you know and and you know what do they say one of the marks of intelligence is the ability to hold two dichotomous thoughts at the same time yeah yeah yeah and so I find that to be I I find that statement to make faith more powerful actually you know um so that that's cool you know just just to see that in that way I'm like I'm I'm enjoying that in my mind that an interesting take on it it's not something we talk about too much you know no it's not famous in the United States obviously and you know a lot of people have never heard of him but but it it's it's kind of like a a scientific or psychological or philosophical viewpoint on faith which I don't know how many how many conversations on on Grand scale are being had about that because usually when someone says they believe the conversations kind of stop because people I think want to be polite or respectful or there you don't there's not a lot of that kind of a thing you know whereas like assuming you have quote unquote faith in whatever it is that you believe in it's different but it's the same kind of Faith you're believing something that you cannot put your hands around you know you're believing in something that you feel you're willing to take that as you said leap of faith and so that part is is interesting and it's shared amongst many religions because they're all stories they're based on stories of people who did amazing things right there was one that I found of a a saint I don't know when what year it was the 16 or 15 I don't know what hundreds it was St Francis of aisi of AI yeah he numerous reports he could fly yeah or at least jump and float you know at a bare minimum he could he got hang time you know thing about that which is you know I was talking to my patient about this and I I did say you know Dan loves these stories like you love yeah it's super fun you love those stories but for me I'm like well you know whether that happened or not I don't know I'm not gonna hang my whole spirituality on whether right some old Italian Saint could fly I'm not that's not gonna be the basis of this you know and maybe that's like like LL Glenn can be amusing on this point I know you have a you have a softer spot for Carlos K than I do I don't like have a I don't like dislike him but I'm not like person but like he was talking about one of the uh the I think it's a German guy he was recommending a book to me and he said this book is really hard to read it's written by this German guy uh uh and he said he read it when he was first becoming interested in like Tibetan Buddhism but the back guy's backstory was he was traveling in the Himalayas and he met a like a guru and and he like oh it's like Carlos C except it actually happened and I was laughing because then of course there's a whole debate whether K that any of that stuff really happened but it doesn't mean his stories aren't inspiring for people if you like ca sure but those stories of cities that you brought up last time Powers Yeah the powers you know and that speaks to different people in different ways but I don't know again it's like the the RN I don't know if I can hang my spiritual life on whether like 2,000 years ago some person flew or rose from the dead or something it's pretty hard to do that yeah I guess depends on your personality type or something but I I mean to me flying is more impressive anyways just to be you know there's no stories of JC flying yeah none not a single one but but the Italian priest Italian priest hey yeah he pulled that off uh but like I mean there's a there's one of these mythicist guys Mark Carrier and I've tried to get through one of his books I've listen to him lecture you know because I'm I'm open to these questions I'm open to different points of view and he's like stories like this all over the place everybody's flying everywhere so there's no reason to believe in that as opposed to some Indian guy right right right right or did whatever walked on the water like you know it's hard to say that that's the you know if you if you if you think about the rational Part of Yourself you know I mean you could obviously okay there's tons of stories why am I just believing this story why don't I believe the story about Krishna where he did all this cool [...] you know yeah it's hard for the rational part of the mind to hold those things though I get the character card thing I get the leap leaping Faith stuff I mean I get that why people do that yes it gives it the power anyway the other thing that Curts I know something more you have on that one or should the thing that occurred to me is like how this seems like this is unraveled because if Jung is being in part prophetic and I think he is the way this played out to me if I was going to give like a history of the United States and maybe it's different in other countries and if we have our International listeners they can say but to me I thought 911 was a big thing in the United States and we both were affected in our own ways by that you much more so than me because you were in the you were in the military right yes that affected you real deep I was like observing from afar but I my feeling of the in the 911 world is that exploded Atheism in the United States to a certain extent because it got to be this argument this is like the Richard Dawkins Christopher Hitchens Sam Harris kind of atheism if any of those names mean anything to you yeah I have no idea who any of those dudes are absolutely fine too it's what one the things you realize in the modern world there's these like bubbles of people you know and if you haven't fallen into the bubble you might never heard of these folks right they're all these famous atheists and um the way that seemed to me was that there was like this whole thing that happened where people said okay so the Twin Tower were hit and the fault is religion and religion that is sort of has this this I don't even know what the right word for it is I guess you could say dogmatism but I mean sure captures it you know but it was this whole idea that no the problem is religion and people are holding these kind of naive religions Bel and it needs to be replaced by IR rationality that will solve everything so my experience was that there was this huge push during that window of time does that make sense to you Daniel yeah I mean I think that was true and there was this this kind of like yeah again there was this explosion and I felt like it was kind of devastating in the aftermath because even though maybe those types of religiosities should be challenged it left a kind of a vacuum right and I suppose the vacuum continued to kind of grow would be maybe how Yung would look at this right it's still growing it's still growing yeah and probably there's been this incredible vacuum of like other disappointments obviously 2008 in the financial crisis like capitalism kind of crashed in people out people's eyes right and then I think in the United States in this incredible vacuum you get something like a trumpism even is probably part of that now we don't talk about political stuff but just looking at that as a move movement that's a vacuum filling movement in people's lives or something all of a sudden this savior figure of this big orange blob is going to appear yeah right and like solve all our problems and I remember watching like when he won in 2016 people were like weeping like this incredible thing had happened I remember thinking okay what emotional state do you have to be in right think that this big orange con artist you know uh slum Lord you know uh charlatan is going to like uh you know going to solve all your problems you're like that's a that almost was like a religious response to that does that make sense to you too yeah there was a religiosity behind that and it it's again it's like gotten kind of extreme and I guess on the other side people have made the point we don't do political stuff but on the other point a lot of this the social activism got a religious tone to it too sure even if the causes are good it took on a tone of religiosity and the argument goes I think from going back to Jung that there was this vacuum that appeared and people started like kind of just grasping around to fill that spiritual Gap or something I know what do you think you think there's something to that I mean this is like I'm not the first person to make this point but yeah I think um of recent American culture yeah yeah people are looking like I said earlier and I and I use materialism you know as that but we like people like Community they like to be part of something in addition to the community just people around you but they like to have ideals things that are greater than them to work on work with work for work towards you know and the uh on both sides of the aisle actually over the last you know probably 10 years or so has definitely been filling that void for lots of people including the rise of like the conspiracy stuff right you know Flat Earth people and all the other all that stuff you know and like yeah some of it is true yeah that happens you know someone said oh hey there's a sex Island that celebrities go to like yeah sure there's a sex oh actually no there is totally a sex Island that people go to somebody you know never there's a former president who's been down there 27 times I think someone was telling me in the past week I was like 27 times okay well you know idea what was going they have really good sandwiches you know um and so some of that stuff is true but it's not necessarily about a specific um instance it's the idea filling the void right so the idea of that you are conspiratorial and your belief meaning that like you're looking for a different view of reality what does religion provide a different view of reality you're looking for a political ideology well what does polit that provides you with a different view of reality oh you don't get it right as people say you don't get it this you're you're missing out on this you're not seeing this and what are they trying to do convert You No One's Gonna right No One's Gonna Change religions based on a conversation and no one's going to change political parties or whatever based on a conversation and yet it still happens and for me I I you know I I agree with you completely it definitely gives people a sense of community which is the the s gives people a sense of purpose which is their own kind of like how we're using Enlightenment as a hope or a refuge they're using the I guess the manifestation of their political willpower as that kind of a thing you know and then analogy that's like their Dharma that's their right and then the ideology around it all is the teachings you know what I'm saying mean like Trump is like their Buddha or whoever figure is going to be like that's going to be the that's going to be the saint-like figure for them that's going to be the like figure yeah yeah yeah follow Daniel's doing the three Treasures right yep of Buddhist practice you have a community that's the S part and then you have the truth which is the Dharma part right what the beliefs are the community right and then you have whoever the figureheads are yep right and there you have it and so you'll have you know a lot of the signs that you'll see up at the rallies and whatnot will be very prophetic in nature you know and un unyielding unwielding Faith towards um a human being that's probably you know shouldn't be had for any particular person because everybody's fallible you know and it's not to say that we can't forgive somebody or accept them even with their fallibilities um but it is to say that you know blind you know the blind leading the blind is uh not a good way to get to the end yeah yeah I didn't put it in the notes but as I was thinking about this you know this whole question because what's being said what there was a kind of a unifying belief system and Y is saying okay there should be this myth that should evolve so it can be inclusive and it just didn't happen you know and then may these are things you're going to see in the end you'll see a belief vacuum and then things will kind of like rush into the vacuum yeah and I think like scientists scientism was part of this right y it hadn't occurred to me until like today but when you look at it like a lot of the people who maybe were going okay so maybe it's science is the thing that's going to be the new our new religion but that took a weird beating during the pandemic during Co it took a huge beating all over the place yeah well and part of it was whole thing of like believe the science right believe that was it people said oh I follow science as if to say because they believe that they're talking to somebody who doesn't can't read you know and so they're like well I follow science and you're like okay good for you I'm glad that you follow science and you know Eric mean you you and I have had similar education went to the same school and whatnot like some people actually have studied research like how research gets done not just Googled a study that fits your point of view which by the way Google will give you research that will fit your point of view you know that will support what GTP It'll like give you exactly exactly what you want to hear back right it'll exactly gives you what you want hear back so the ability to have critical thinking is important which is why I which is why you know just kind of looping back to where we kind of started the idea that you can take that leap of faith and have critical thought and say you know the story of some person arising from the dead is a crazy story just in general right one that I cannot wrap my rational mind around it but you know what I'm going to do I'm going to take that leap of faith and say I believe that that's happen happen because this person was a special person and if I believe that that person was a special person then I believe in the rest of the story that's the bridge that's the bridge to believing in and in in this case what are we talking about like God or Divinity or something greater than than than the material you know what I'm saying and so for them they need though they need that crutch they need that and I think most people do we talked about this last time I think I mentioned something like oh um having faith in metaphysical abilities you know and and that being the crutch which is why I I do like those stories about people flying or or making uh you know pizza for the ages that everybody will remember how good it was you know what he did basil just simple basil and tomatoes that was it B everybody yeah you know but like that that gives people something tangible because it's rational but not rational and um and that helps people to believe it to believe more so I am in the camp that I think spiritual practice is better than not having it generally speaking but that being a good person probably affects your daytoday more than having a a larger spiritual belief or or religious belief in general because at some point it does start to look like a political belief and there is some research and I'll have to look at the book I don't have it I don't have it memorized but like the place that we decide these things that's located in our brain are very close to like an emotional Center so at some point your your ability to make decisions moves over there once they get a little bit more deeply ingrained so you're not dealing in in rationalities that I know what you're talking about yeah yeah you're not you're not dealing in rationalities you're not saying okay well these three uh meters are higher than than these two meters so therefore this one's greater it moves over and you're like well what what's the ground look like and what is the you know how who's measuring the thing you know what I'm saying and so as you start to move away from that and you start choosing from a place of emotionality you're not going to be changed anymore you're not going to be influenced there's nothing wrong with choosing from that place but I don't know that people have the understanding that they're moving from one side to the other side and once you kind of move over there it's very difficult to get out of it because as I say science no longer applies here you know we're we're talking out of some place of where we believe to be knowing and it's not based in religion it's not based in rationality it's not based in science it's not based on anything it's based on feel and you cannot convince somebody to not feel things you know that's and that's where they're coming from it's it's very difficult it's an emotional Place yeah I don't think I really like the amount of splintering that happened though because as I was like trying to go through the history of my mind I went okay so 911 happened and there was this atheist thing and it was the rationalist versus the religious people and that kind of along but it almost seemed like it kind of like splintered even more because then you main thing is like to be involved in social causes which could be Noble things but it has a religiosity to it now right people right and then you got the trumpism filling some weird Gap and that's maybe people who religious a lot of people who aren't though but it's its own kind of funny religion and you know all this the splintering of this so again I guess I see in that Yung being prophetic in this way I suppose the maybe as we get to the end of the episode maybe I can share one other thing about this I think connects back to another part of what you were saying though which was that for me when I was deciding to go to do acupuncture part of what excited me about it was I was like but this is an entirely different way of looking at the universe sure and I was interested in that and if you could make some needles and some what would seem from a Western Medical or Western biological or Western sort of cultural point of view to be just some random SP spots in the body right you're just poking that that would actually do [...] really meant that there was a whole another worldview in place now I had already gotten some of my we did episodes on extraordinary experiences and I already had like some experiences that were kind of wild I met a guy from okanawa who could shoot electricity out of his hand see cool Power it was a cool and it influenced me I can't say it didn't it was a cool power and I think after that it was like you start meditating you start realizing I can almost kind of read people's minds and [...] maybe you could do that in anyways beforehand like I had had situations where like people seem to be able to read each other's minds oh yeah that means there's more going on here right even before meditating that was happening you know we all had those kinds of experiences there's more to the universe right but I thought doing the acupuncture was a very definitive statement because it was like I'm gonna put little metal pokers right and completely random spots and it's G to fix people [...] that's right it doesn't hurt at all doesn't feel that's gonna seem crazy and I had like very sciency friends I remember like thinking okay part of what I'm trying to make the statement in doing this because I I can do things for crazy reasons like this in part was that like I think there's another whole way of looking at the world and I want to do things that demonstrate that to people right the show there's more to reality than what you think there is you're not just a biological robot being defined by the way this culture is telling you how you're supposed to be you're not you have uh you know other energetic processes going on and I'll show you through these [...] needles right there's more to you plus if we do the needles in certain ways maybe even will tap into deep deeper parts of your own psyche or maybe even what we might even call deeper parts of your own spirit and we'll show that and you know that was I think the way the extraordinary things kind of help in that sense too I've had that sense of that as well right and that does help you go through and think okay maybe there's more to this that mattered to me I don't know if you had any do you have any thoughts like that I mean I had thoughts like that going into our field I like yeah I want to prove to people that there's more going on in reality and I'm going to try to do it through this medicine Beyond just like fixing their lomago their sore back or you know you know whatever it is you know their gird or something you know the fact that they you know yes problems yeah that that's one reason why I like to bring people uh to to Remy and Ashley's Place in Mexico you know drinking the drinking the medicine for sure is uh is one of those times where people can cross the threshold you know and really move far far far beyond what you believe was possible to have kind of deep healing and visual and energetic experiences that go beyond explanation but are yet so intimately personal you know you're not just drinking a hallucinogenic because there would be some overlap at some point it's the same thing and yet everybody is drinking the same thing but everybody's experience is different you know what I'm saying so that's kind of one of these things but but then also the like we were talked about in previous do episodes I would think the universe will respond too you'll have synchronicities you'll have abut you start realizing oh wait a minute my mind got opened in a new way in reality is different than what I thought yeah so before we finish Eric I do want to I want to ask a question and then you know I just just see if what we could do since this is the last episode that we're recording and in 2023 um maybe maybe we'll do it next week but maybe maybe we'll do it next week but maybe just in case it's not just in case it is um we don't ever really we've never done this before so let's we'll just give it a shot right so looking at it from an anthropological societal perspective okay we see you mentioned 911 as one place of splitting right uh in the culture psycho psycho emotional culture split between kind kind of religiosity and then rationality and in the rationality camp we have science also then we have kind of like the 2016 election as another one and maybe even a little bit before that already kind of like starting to RI the fabric is kind of starting to Ripple I feel like the financial crisis ruined capitalism for people there we go 2008 2009 that were like big deals yeah yeah there were totally big deals that you know kind of left a psychic wound really in people's in people's minds you know and and and and economic wounds in in this part in in this country I me I know I don't know if it was all over the world but I know if for here places that were already kind of shaky took a huge hit and like a loss of faith in the whole idea of it so yeah yeah so maybe we'll maybe we'll call it uh hits on faith right yeah and then again uh the election and then and then the hits on faith went even deeper with people who believed in science as the last truth the last Bastion of truth right during the the kind of the pandemic and and so now things are definitely different than when they were which is always could be the case as time moves forward but you know just based on this shift and I'm not asking anything specific but if you were using your uh your top hat of Merlin or Nostradamus where would you imagine where could you imagine that there might be another you know shift that would change the you know another Bastion of hope that seems to be relatively ubiquitous or at least held by a large percent of the population yeah I don't know if I can answer that here's my gut answer sure give me the gut okay we're doing this podcast we are this podcast is not going to change human culture it is not but it might for some I see it as like this is the The Act of Faith this is the leap of faith to me the leap of faith that I kind of believe in is this idea of the uh The Seekers people who are seeking out something different creating a new kind of spirituality a new kind of way of looking at the world we were talking before the episode started in our kind of pre-episode little combo that we have it just came up like I'm trying to write my own stages of the path I'm trying to write my own worldview that seems um true for me you know I'm writing my own version of tantric Zen DST Sufism right right and so to me I see that is the point of hope you know now that doesn't answer your question I know because we're talking about something that will be much more sweeping and social but my own kind of personal like uh um karmic inclinations are not in that direction I tend to see the COPE in the actions of you know individual folks like what we're doing or maybe people who are listening you know yeah and maybe that's what happens now there is this like little Theory it goes back to this guy what's his name his last name was Wilbur I forget his first name you know he talks about this idea if you can get a certain number of people like we were talking last week about like the five to 10 perent if you get five to 10% of the people trying to like create something different it will tend to kind of Ripple you know do I think that that can happen in some way where we're all gonna like decide that we're all going to believe in the same Guru or something I don't right even want that to be honest I think that's played out you know yeah so I think that's over my hope for hope would be that you know individual people will will um res like one of my favorite things is you just resist the outside and create your own thing right and then that will be the magic for the future so that's my answer to it that isn't trying to see a prophecy but that's more like I guess stating a hope and at least why I'm what I why I've been trying to do the whole thing I've been doing my whole life to be honest that's because of that and to the extent that that hopefully that has an influence Beyond just myself you know we've done this in different ways I've tried to do it with students I've tried to do it patience now we're trying to do this with this podcast you know try you know like that's the that's the goal you just try to like push this idea right so I don't think that answers your question but I mean that is my gut answer to it okay you so I I you know I I can't predict the future so I I don't know that I would I can only say that larg scale events have you know they they leave marks on society like traumas leave marks on people the the external wounds appear as rule changes and laws and the internal marks or the internal scars appear as these riffs you know away away moving further away but I think the point that you bring up so I can't predict what going to happen there'll probably be some more financial stuff there'll probably be some more yeah a bunch of [...] up shit's gonna happen right like that you know there's gonna be an environmental crisis it's gonna go shitty you know that probably is gonna happen you know but I think I think that um there there are not too many bastions that are not tethering a little bit you know what I'm saying they're not they're not fraying already you know they're teetering and tearing yeah yeah yeah yeah they're not is the age of Aquarius you know things are like being kind of pulled apart I mean Yung writes about that yeah moving out of the time of Pisces the Aon of Pisces he wrote a whole book called Aon about like you know the Jesus we'll talk about when we talk about Jesus maybe next time for people the audience yeah you know the Aon part you know um we're moving out of the Pisces thing which we'll explain what that means next time yeah next time yeah yeah and yeah we're moving into Aquarius and Aquarius is like a harsh energy in some ways it's the last shit's going to fall apart Aquarius but when it does that when it does that to kind of like just adding to your point a little bit like we end up having the democratization of ideas I that's the positive side of it right right that's the that's the positive side of that so in a true democracy a true democracy everybody's input is equal to the others obviously we don't exist in a true democracy and based on money power Fame notoriety and the desire to have all those things not everybody's voices has the same thing but in our own kind of communities and our own relative realities if you want to call them that we can decide to choose things that are not necessarily within what the culture would want or even accept do you know what I'm saying yeah yeah I think that's what I'm advocating for yeah and so then doing this thing yeah and and that and that goes towards the the that we that we are offering it goes towards the work that we are offering in terms of like with patience and whatnot somebody uh I I did a a breathing a breath work workshop and I said you know give us a I like to have everybody do a little introduction I say tell me what you'd like to be called and tell me what you do in life I don't know I don't want to know your career I want to know what you do what what do you do in this lifetime um and when it came around to me uh a name that was given to me by Lama Glenn was osel and so I saidou know my name is osell and I teach meditation yeah because I believe that to be the greatest tool that I could teach anybody see that like to the question you're posing I don't I mean one thing I can say for sure for that is that I believe in the fact that we can go through as individual beings take our own Spirits our own Buddha Natures you know our original spirits of who we are youan CH of your Chinese and do something with that that I believe that I can that I can put some money on so if that's like a nice way to end an episode for me I think that's the for me yeah and we can go through and we we can be creative Spiritual Beings and come up with our own ways of living Our Lives I think that I believe in other stuff I don't but that I yeah and then maybe the the energy that would normally get put into like um shared communal or shared societal beliefs like religion or like science or political whatever you can take that natural wiring that natural tendency to want to be a part of a collective and and fold that back in on yourself actually and fold that back in on your own development it's not to say that you can't be involved in those things because that's a that's an act of compassion on a large scale which I think is useful but on the other hand that that the tendency to want to believe or or be a part of some kind of spiritual thing because we are wired in this way instead of just letting it go and just going wow [...] you know that shit's not real you could take that energy and actually maybe make as we're using it a lot in this episode the leap of faith and and try you know because as you see things are splitting that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to be split yourself let others be split but not not those few that that are going to make the effort to try and find something that I love to say it is beyond the obvious well I mean like I think also and I probably have to like get going in a second but we can Partnerships that are of our own design and creation right new Partnerships that are outside of like maybe what the rules might have been previously but we can do you know I mean like and you know we have a spiritual partnership sure that's involved in producing this stuff and that to helps some people out that's cool you know you know you can kind of like form spiritual Partnerships in the new way based on something that's much more authentic to how you see the spirituality of the world or something like that right yeah do maybe that's the that maybe that's the opportunity within this yeah maybe and I I think that fits with what Yung was saying to BR the whole thing around like ultimately in the end like we tap into the archetypal world we tap into the spiritual world and we share in a new way that isn't being structured from the outside right right yeah right that seems a beautiful way to try to end it unless yeah I think so I I didn't want I didn't want to end it on the you know it's not being a I think this is the opportunity right I the opportunity is to build I mean that's the whole theme of the show right to try to build lives that are spiritually existentially meaningful to the Beats of our own drums yes in our own way that's a freedom yeah right yeah all right beautiful so we pulled it around again that's it the end of every episode we pull back to something positive yeah why not it's good it should be that's why that's what I believe in yeah yeah can say like I actually literally believe in that will it change the whole society I don't [...] know but I believe in that that we can do but if Society is made up of of individuals and we can have influence on oursel and individuals and eventually something will happen maybe that five to five to 10 percent thing works and things start to shift yeah that would be a huge audience if we had five to 10 percent of all the people I'm not I'm not holding it on [Laughter] that people will be doing their own Boogie too and maybe right on that note we would love to have people share our work with their friends families co-workers enemies and uh strangers even so uh if you you know you enjoy what we're doing uh leave a comment in the YouTube or uh you know whever else you can on Instagram something like that uh email us Jin andant gmail.com and if you are you know uh not subscribed on on the on Spotify or apple or YouTube you know please go ahead and hit that sub button we appreciate it does help the algorithm kind of get us to more people uh we have been growing a little bit over the last few weeks and you know more people see our work and it it's wonderful and actually if you're here with us at the end of the video you are within like the 5% of people that uh stay to the end of these things so thank you very much uh we do appreciate all the love and all the you know constructive criticism we'll take it all and and put it in the Tantra machine and make a chocolate cake out of it at the end and and feast on it as we dance naked around a fire to some random God who does or doesn't exist based on how you believe you can decide for yourself if that D exists that's right we could also be Manic and just you know having a breakdown but you know either way we're enjoying it with pleasure as as my teacher Andre would say with pleasure um so with pleasure Eric thank you so much for being here to our audience thank you for listening for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch youall on the next one [Music] peace he