foreign spirituality with a Twist so we are back to doing our little relationship series and probably the big closer on this the big finale um we're going to talk a little bit about young but maybe in a special way and we always knew we were going to do this because we wanted to talk about in a way that's kind of very personal especially ways that maybe a little bit more personal about our own lives especially me this might be like uh uh the episode that'd be called Eric's scariest episode it's like I think it's the only one of the things I think I ever really felt nervous about talking about though I think the minute we started this podcast we knew eventually we'd have this conversation this has been a three-year build the question really is there because if you continue after this that's the real question do I just quit no no I want to talk more okay okay I want to talk more and then yeah we all have our reveals so so we all got our things we want to talk about that are close to the heart I wanted the very beginning though I have a couple Preamble things and Daniel was kidding before we started the uh the the actual recording about how this is so indicative of my personality because I'll say hey I want to talk about this thing and I'll talk about four other things first yes which is very true but I had like these Preamble things as I think unless doing this just doesn't make any sense the first thing I wanted to do real quick though and we'll see how fast this goes whether we break this up into two separate episodes or not it's kind of a debate might be a two-parter you know but um I wanted to thank Daniel for his patience in doing this and for the people listening and doing this this has actually been kind of a like a great experience for me prepping these episodes all the things we do but especially this little thing because for whatever weird karmic reason this is all really close to my personal heart and so this has been something you know really important so I just wanted to thank you Dan and my brother of course for being supportive in this right and like I said it's probably the only one where I'm really kind of nervous about it um I think I've got done some other kind of cringy episodes even recently just as a foreshadowing and a little bit of prep but anyways that's what it is um okay on the preliminaries I think just as a kind of a personal announcement thing I think this has been so interesting for me the whole series of episodes I'm gonna try to write it up as a little book but I hopefully think will be one of our first GNT books maybe we'll have like GNT press or something um you know Dan and I have been talking about doing books around the the show and I want us to write and we both want us to write something together this thing is kind of burning a hole in my head though that I feel like I have to do it and you know Daniel and I understand this on this point I think when we're both kind of passionate people and when something really grabs you you feel like you got to do it so I think I'm I'm grateful for Daniel for being supportive of that too right I think the thing that's been really interesting for me in this and that's something I'm curious your feedback about this Daniel is I think with the young thing I'm now I've done this deep dive in here into his works now and especially the memories genes Reflections the sort of semi-autobiography and I think it's not that I feel like I've been exactly even influenced by him he was sort of like a peripheral figure in some ways in my life though important and some very specific ways that I'll talk about in these episodes but it's more like I had the feeling like not so much being affected by him exactly but more this experience of like if you are a certain kind of person who asks a certain set of questions you'll come up with really similar conclusions so the strange thing for me has been looking at like you know his life and going God I think I was asking similar questions coming up with similar kinds of answers just in a kind of a parallel way not that I was kind of reading him and like trying to follow him in that way or something but more just like hey I think we had something similar Brewing inside and uh again led to similar questions and then similar answers does that make sense to you Daniel yeah I think you have that experience with anybody where you feel like okay I was like in terms of like a historical yeah maybe or or even an author contemporary yeah something like that do you have anything like that yeah I mean I think for me I can say that and maybe this is really you know also relatable to people you probably have this with people who you know in your life now you know you're on similar wavelengths you'll call and talk to somebody you haven't talked to in a while find out you guys are into the same thing or studying the exact same thing you know like at the current time or you're in school and you talk to somebody else from your cohort and find out you have very similar interests you know yeah that's happening concurrently so I think that's one but then I think also like I think we're drawn towards teachers we can call Young a teacher you know in this part of his existence um we're drawn towards teachers or teachings that resonate with us and that you know we may not we may take something else from them then besides what they're trying to put forth but I think what's interesting is that when you were talking about this before we started recording and then we were talking about the book it's it's about where you're coming from right not necessarily the how it how it's presented or the answers that come but it's the place that you're coming from the specific like location if you want to call it this like this kind of energetic place and so you're coming from this particular place Therefore your Viewpoint is coming from that spot right so if I am standing 50 feet away from you you're not going to hear my voice you're only going to hear me yelling and you're always going to sound my voice is always going to sound quite distorted because you're only going to hear my voice yelling but then when I come up and I get close to you you're gonna be like oh you sound different now I'm like well yeah because I'm standing closer I don't have to yell you know so like when someone puts forth a work of art or creative work it it is about there I mean at least in my interpretation they're trying to creatively um channel the place from which they're coming from the energy of that feeling or that position I keep using positionality but of that particular place you know what I'm saying and so I feel like there are similar places that we come from I'm saying the same thing as you just in a different way that when we're working through something either in Life or in our you know a relationship work whatever creatively spiritually however that when that re that may has probably been experienced by numerous people before and concurrently but when we find people who uh reflect that back to us in their work then it's it's a nice mirror you know and you get to see yourself sort of externally reflected back to yourself via someone else's creativity if that I could get an influence on me in some ways when I was younger and I'll talk about that then I kind of like put him down I didn't really think I mean I thought about his work at different times I taught it for years and classes and stuff so he's been on my mind somewhat but I didn't think I really thought about it as like wow there's a real parallelism in some of the questions he was asking and then the answers and I was like this is really interesting and that made me think about a book where you can kind of look at a little bit kind of telling your own life but I mean who cares about me that much but you can talk about like young and you can say yeah there's something about this that he kind of creates maybe almost like a template for a certain kind of attitude towards life you know and I just find that really interesting and I hadn't really thought about that before so that was one of the things I wanted to talk about a little bit well that place that place that he is you know touching on has more relevance to you now for for where you are well yeah it's kind of it's interesting yeah I guess that's something I'll explore as I go along and we'll see what it's like in the episode I think there was sort of like a hidden parallelism or something that I wasn't really aware of strange it's a strange experience like and it can go back to even some of the details like he grew up in this rural community in this religious household and like I did too and you know there's this funny stuff where I'm like you know interesting you know so anyways um okay the next big thing for me on the docket was something I thought was really important to talk about too and we kind of kicked this around pre-show as being kind of an important idea that's kind of like okay to disagree so as I was like thinking about the questions involved in all of this for me relationships love what does it mean how do different people approach it we talked about like some famous psychologists we talked about Esther peral and Freud and Reich and Jung and uh Carl Rogers floating around there too but I also talked to a lot of people just in my life that I know patients and friends and family and like I got to the point where I was like okay there's just a lot of individual difference within this which on the one hand is kind of obvious but I started really thinking about it kind of I guess to my mind what is maybe a deeper Taoist way not thinking about it beings have their own Natures you know if you're a Taoist you say a sparrow is a sparrow a hawk's a hawk a frog's a frog you know they're all going to have their own kind of particular ways of being in the world and uh I think that I think the depth and profundity of that really hit me in a deeper way than maybe I would have like felt before and even in something like this like you and I Daniel we don't have to agree about these questions even that we're going to be talking about but it's like totally okay you know I love you like a brother and it's all fine you know and I actually talked to my own biological brother about this and we don't feel the same way but that's all okay too and it was amazing like getting to that place was actually really healing I'll share it with my about my brother too once we get a little bit further what it was like but you know my brother and I talked through a lot of these things as well my uncle passed away last year almost going on a year now and we spend a lot of time taking care of my uncle together and we had a lot of deep conversations as a lot of times happens if you've been in this situation with like a sick relative you end up going through and spending a lot of time with family and friends and you get to know people in this much deeper way it's kind of moving right my mom like would say it's my uncle would be really happy that his passing brought my brother and I so close something like that and so it was a kind of like a very moving experience on so many levels but my brother and I found are we had really kind of hard difficult conversations about some of these things but they were very healing you know and the lab just had to do with like accepting like okay we don't agree but that's okay you know which is I think a profound point you know and when you think about that one you just were visiting your own brother we were talking about that so just the importance of having those relationships and having those agreeings and disagreeings I'm not sure where you and I fully disagree there are places where we don't totally agree we agree on a lot yeah you know but there's places where there's a little bits of like difference of how we think about things and like just the acceptance of how okay that is now there's something powerful about that that makes sense to you it's an important point you know we kind of talked about this before we started recording so we can kind of get into it a little bit you know but no no two people are going to agree 100 with anybody with each other that that's just first and foremost and you know we talk about on this podcast and you know with our own individual friends and students and you know patients and whomever else people anybody who's willing to listen really you know um you know about not just our views like personal but like I think at least I think I can I can't speak for you but I think a lot of many of the things I believe I feel like I have sought out and then inherited because I sought them out you know there was something inside of me that was looking for hey I can't put a I can't put words to this feeling so I'm gonna look around and see if anybody else feels this kind of a way oh look yes not only is there one person there's like thousands of people and they call it this particular philosophy so now that has kinship with me but even within that there's differentiations but amongst the different schools and different practitioners and even myself and even people who learn with me at the same time from the same person you know so there's always going to be a little bit differences the the point is not necessarily that there is differences it's how you live with it you know and and I was I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a patient of mine who's a really nice guy and we end up having some really deep conversations and I always go out of my way to thank my patients when they come in and we get to have real conversations about real things I'm like they're like oh thank you so much for your wisdom I'm like no you don't understand like I want to thank you for even opening the space such that we can have this conversation you know because a I'm reminding myself of things that I believe in Via a different person who doesn't necessarily quote unquote agree with me they are of a different mind and they ask different questions and they're not going to just take what I say at face value but they are going to think about it and then go hmm I don't know that seems real not real or whatever the case is fine this is good learning but it's learning in a dynamic kind of a way that's interpersonal and it's relationships it's relationship based and so I feel like even if someone agrees with what I'm saying in principle there could still be differences and even if they agree with disagree with what I'm saying they still might find my points valid they just don't hold the same kind of beliefs but more importantly is that we can kind of look at each other respectfully and go I can still learn from you right and the importance is taking that that kind of opportunity to learn even when it's difficult you know I'm saying even when we don't agree when even when there's just you know dissonance if you will and I I find that to be kind of like a really important piece you know that that you're kind of talking about here with this like disagreeing you know being agreeing to disagree well I think you and I are both like authenticity addicts or junkies or something like that we really love this authenticity right we talked about this recently in some yeah so you know like you you will refuse to be inauthentic an episode even if I tried to set you up you're like no I'm not going there dude it doesn't feel real to me I'm not doing it okay it has to feel real right in this in this way and um and I think you know when you get to these points of being real and you know I had difficult conversations with people about some of these things recently you know where there's a little heat behind him you know and uh but you know that's when you're getting to the points that are important and and a lot of it had to do with effective like okay I'm going to accept this person and what they're saying right it's not and this is the non-judgment part right that we're going to kind of take it with a non-judgment judgmental attitude I don't want to be judged I don't think other people want to be judged right right I get the feeling like this is how young kind of did his psychotherapy apparently he didn't keep any clinical notes for when his offspring said you know his his Heirs of his materials there weren't clinical files and he didn't even have like a specific philosophy all the time that was consistent of how he would handle patients his thing was like let me sit here Carl Rogers the same idea maybe let me sit here and be an authentic presence and I'll try to bring this authenticity out this other person and along the way they'll discover who they are and it'll help me discover who I am you know and that's a point of gratitude for everybody right yeah yeah yeah yeah no that's exactly what I'm saying okay so on the point of potential disagreement yeah between you and me well before you go there okay yeah yeah before I go there okay one part I think it's just to drive this point home and you mentioned it but then like and it's in your notes here too so I want to just touch on it that it is um you can agree or disagree it doesn't matter but the point of acceptance non being not non-judgmental is an important point and you know I think they're at least in like sort of like the I'm not going to call it modern modern spirituality whatever the people are selling on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube whatever that garbage is we I want to touch it occasionally you know and not that everybody is garbage or some people are coming from a good place it's I'm not saying it's all bad I'm just saying some of it you know it's kind of hokey obviously I'm like so distance from this I don't even know what this stuff was yeah I'm like I got my pinky toe in it like just barely pinky I don't know how to make any kind of opinions about that yeah I just you know like they'll talk about these Concepts but it's almost like you know they'll say oh well you know being critical being judgmental they Loop those things in the same in the same Loop but it's not actually they're not the same thing being at least in my work in my mind being judgmental is like you standing separate from the issue issue being a judge right viewing doing the polarity right doing a dualistic Viewpoint good bad that's it because that's what judges do yes no you know right whereas being critical yes you could totally be judgmental mental and criticize right meaning meaning not only do I disagree with you but I'm going to criticize and tell you why you're wrong right however if you can disagree with somebody and then critique how that disagreement resonates with you now you're using instead of being critic critical you're having critical thinking right and you're able to kind of see how that resonates and and fits with you and where it is that you can shift your own sense of maybe being a little bit more soft or being a little bit more open to at least Embrace their Viewpoint even if you don't believe in it but say okay I can be compassionate to understanding who you are and where you are and extending you the the benefit of the doubt even if I believe you're wrong but I'm not going to hold that against you I'm not going to judge in that way you know what I'm saying and so like you'll still have the acceptance of that person yes right even though we you know and then there's a way in which you can go like okay I don't believe that for this and this and that reason for me for me but that doesn't mean what this is for doing this other person is doing is somehow wrong for them correct they got their own reasons right not their own reasons and even if even if they're what they're doing is detrimental to them right let's say it's a bad habit or some kind of addiction or whatever and you know it's not good for them it's art verifiably not good they're gambling incessantly what makes you think that the words that you're going to say to them right now are going to make any difference of course you're going to give impassion uh Speech or or try some words to try and help them because you're a nice person hopefully but they've heard it it's their own issue you know what I'm saying like they have to be willing to come to the table and ask for your assistance you can't always just give here here's what I think let me let me give you the gift of me you're welcome such a deep thing because you know maybe it's a whole other set of episodes I'll save it for some of the time but like definitely clinically this happens all the time right I had things I could tell this person but they're probably not going to listen to me I mean I teach whole classes on it yeah you know like unless you have a real Bond and a transference and the person wants to hear what you're saying they didn't hire you to be you know their head shrinker yeah so they might not be interested in your opinion and I may professionally to do that mentioning all of this because you know I'm maybe building it more than it we should be you know but like you know as we continue when we get to the eventual you know reveal of what it is that you know some of your beliefs that like people can have their own judgment right because there are all things that we do that are probably outside of the kind of ideology of society or what Society wants the automaton robots to be doing in their lives because they're more easily controlled and can buy more that way um and not everybody believes everything so there has to be some level of practice being in dissonance and it's so much easier to do that with people whom you have like you said this connection with this bond with to do that in a kind of a nice held space and so you might as well start practicing because inevitably uh at some point in your life you're going to start a podcast and then decide to start sharing things about yourself you want to do it in a non-general weight non-judgmental way so everyone doesn't give you a bunch of that's right now the societal question is a big one it kind of brought it up so that was another one I had in my notes here yeah and I'm not sure where we agree or disagree on this totally it's a little funny for me because if I'm honest about you know my spirituality psychology how I see the world for me it's kind of axiomatic that there's going to be this conflict it's very deep part of me that to be an individual person you're going to have to like remove yourself from the toxic parts of the societal influences and it's just so deep it's like if I was writing you know this is idea of stages of the path LOM Rim in Buddhist philosophy you know the things you have to learn and this would be like part of my own personal alarm room which is probably what I'm we're writing in this podcast anyway it's a kind of a personal alarm over time but for me it's like it's true in the psychologists that I really like and some of the people we talked about like young and Reich and Ronk and even Carl Rogers talks this way right I was passing on some Carl Rogers stuff to someone and I was looking through his ideas and there's a part where he's like saying if you want to be authentic when you become authentic you won't you won't follow things from the outside as much you'll have your own internal Compass you'll do it for yourself yeah so I mean those things matter and I think in the spiritual Traditions that ultimately I gravitated towards Zen or taoism I think especially truongsa I have like multiple quotes that I are on the shower curtain of wisdom across the hall and are like things that like I drop in the classes where trungs is going like if you let Society do this to you it will your head up that's not as political as the way he says it there'll be some butterflies and close enough things but it gets to the essence of it right it's going to screw your head around and I think Buddhist Tantra is like this too Tantra in general there's this whole acknowledgment like you have to get away from it's almost like it's you like Carl's castanedo and it's way it's almost like you have to get your power back it's stolen your power yes by like in like getting your mind wrapped around stuff that may not really be true and you have to steal that power back right and in that case you then you Empower yourself yeah and that's a lot of that tantric stuff is like Empower yourself back steal the power back that's been taken from you from these institutions so it's across the board it's also true of the Arts I love like um um I mentioned Henry Miller he's very much like this I had a conversation about Philip K dick the other day I don't know if you like him or not Daniel uh you like him as a writer I don't know the only no I don't know him well enough he's the guy who wrote the the book behind like Blade Runner you know that's why okay there we go yeah but anyways you know I was having this conversation about Philip K dick and he has this whole thing like the Empire never ended that's one of his really famous quotes right and he really means like the structure of the Roman Empire or the structure of authoritarianism can always repeat itself so you can always find yourself under things that are kind of authoritarian at different times the Empire never really ends it just keeps going on right and these forces are negative and in some ways as an individual I have to pull yourself out of it again writing a book on Jung he's all over this point like he really cares about this a lot and he has this deep idea that you have to individuate yourself partially that's like not being held back by your own internal psychological baggage but part of that's also like not being dominated by the external world to the point where it kind of forces a false version of yourself upon you so I don't know where we agree or don't or disagree on this I wrestle with it myself so I'll continue on with that but let me throw the mic over to you where do you think we agree and disagree I guess no I mean I think we I I think on that we agree totally to be to be totally honest I mean uh yeah I mean there's always like the language right is where the language right because when when someone says individual I you know what to be individualized right that's I don't want people to think that that's what we're saying individualized right and that like you are establishing yourself as because I think sometimes at least in my it's how I I'm just going to say what I think yeah like the projection that my mind does is that when someone hears empowerment and individualized and leaving of society or or right that like you are thereby becoming your own one-person Society right and that might be in a sense the first step right into becoming free of the you know as we've talked about this like uh societal plague if you will right yeah that goop that's sort of on your psycho your unconscious your psychological unconscious you're Psy conscious um but like that is from a from a tantric perspective from a uh you know an Enlightenment practical perspective Enlightenment philosophical traditional perspective that is part of the path along the way it is not the end stage so I want to keep that in the in the in the not the rear view mirror but in the perspective looking forward so removing the the power that they have over us from birth and then taking that upon yourself to become you know a Freemason right if you will to make your own decisions to be at the top of the pyramid with your eye open right say a shaman right a shaman or a yogi you know what or whatever you know yeah I think the young thing on that and this is like a obviously like a Buddhist compassion thing too it's you know he spent his whole life writing these long-ass books trying to communicate some of his insights to other people and then trying to work with patients to help them go through whatever their process was so I get what you're saying I mean I suppose you could think what kind of be an individual it doesn't mean to become a jerk right or to become you know like a narcissistic person or something like that correct I think like I think the confidence in Carl Jung or Carl Rogers or Wilhelm Reich who we talked about or rather wrong or whoever these people are along with like spiritual past too is that the more you get to be who you are just like naturally you want to help other people along their own trajectories too I know what more naturally want to do that that that's more what human nature is actually about it's not like we're all a bunch of a narcissistic dingbats you know that and that's that's why I said well like it's not like that well what will actually come out will be something that's much more compassionate and you know willing to share and give and try the support love and support right yeah yeah and I can you know just share from you know the last like month and a half of various ceremonial spaces that I have helped or held personally or been a part of I have been you know fortunately the recipient of some really beautiful compliments and you know like the Buddhist tradition will say you know compliments uh you know good compliments bad compliments let them both go like the wind something like this you know like a breeze or however they describe it uh and so you do your best to not be criticized you know to not let someone's critique of you ruin your day and also to not let someone's compliment of you boost yourself so high that you know you can't come back on the ground so I keep all this in mind but the the deepest compliments at this point for me are not like somebody bowing to my feet for whatever reason you know what I'm saying or whatever but them being happy to be around me because I am myself or they perceive me to be me and that they are just that makes them feel more confident in being them all their own self and it took me a minute to kind of like understand what somebody was saying they're like oh man I'm just so happy that I'm grateful that I get to be around you as you're being you and I'm like what do you mean they're like just doing what you do it's you and I'm like okay they're like yeah exactly I'm like well what are you saying they're like no that's what I'm saying you're you and that's cool I like that thank you I'm like I have no idea what you're talking about oh you know they're like the authenticity in one person that brings out the authenticity another person exactly that's that's that's exactly the point and I think if you can get like because I guess if there's another principle that we would throw out there that I think we both agree on is like non-hierarchicalism yeah if you can bust out of this not hierarchicalism that you know one person has to sort of put themselves above the other person that's probably intrinsically toxic there's something just wrong with that probably yeah no matter where you find that you know in any part of human the human world or something there's something just wrong with that obviously and probably it's wrong in like chimps and gorillas and it's just up everywhere Gibbons and there's something wrong with the whole thing so yeah I I kind of get that idea you know because when you when that happens yo you're not you're not trying to yeah you're not trying to establish some hierarchy over some other person you're not trying yeah but I think that's even true like within the family thing like I don't want to put myself even in like I have to be the like sort of the dad to my kids so sometimes I have to be like okay you have to follow me just because I'm your dad I'm sorry that's how it is right but in general you know I don't want it to be like uh I'm the authority person and you have to kind of like live under my weight or something no it's bad for people yeah yeah all right yeah so okay so I wasn't sure if there's stuff we disagree about but the only thing just just on the Note apparent of of that relationship when when you are uh just because I don't have kids but I have friends lots of friends and family members who have kids uh teaching people boundaries is important you know and Remy talked about this a little bit with people who come in to their Center who are you know sort of just spiritual practitioners of any ilk you know they don't have a particular practice or just they're just doing whatever is that they don't they don't have the the kind of boundaries to help guide them down any particular path they could choose whatever path they want but that they're sort of like very windy they're they're movable almost too easily so there is a blending of like not feeling like someone is pointing down at you you know that you're more standing parallel but then I think also from the perspective of talking earlier about agreeing to disagree with somebody who you have a common relationship with that you're holding space for them you know you're holding space for their opinion but that you're all also holding space for their expansion so that they do know that there are boundaries for them to kind of work work within to move towards you know what I'm saying like the like the I guess having direction or something would come from in Chinese we talk about the the idea of the Hun the spirit that has to do with the wood phase and it gives you direction of where you need to go I think sometimes people it's like kind of directionless yeah I'm gonna say this word boundaries because they got a special Ester parallel thing to say about the word boundaries sure I didn't put in the notes because I just listened to it last night so for shadowing I'll get back to boundaries from an extra extra perel perspective sure that word's interesting right yeah it has lots of different meanings behind it but I get what you're talking about um the thing that got me a little bit in this whole societal thing was to go and say okay I have this principle in my mind you know that you have to do these breaks it's just a spiritual principle just overall but then I had to look at it honestly and I had to say well I have other people I know who live under societal norms and mores and they're like totally like happy as a clam sure so it was a weird thing for me and again it seems like a small thing but it really isn't when you try to like walk your way through at least it wasn't for me to go through and say okay I think that there's something about breaking with this but on the other hand I think I have to not judge people in the sense of the people who are like perfectly fine with this right one old friend I haven't talked with them about this yet uh you know we've been playing music together since we were like you know in junior high or something you know the old friend and uh like we've known each other since we were six and we don't talk all the time but you know he's an old friend and he lives like what I would describe as being a kind of like a quintessential American Life in many ways Works in Corporate America you know has his wife and kids that are kind of like a big part of his life obviously um he does his creative music things but you know for the most part his life is pretty like um American right I wouldn't be able to live his life and I've known this for years like I know this one even with him working in Corporate America I was like I I would like literally like just like toss myself out the window like I wouldn't be able to do it you know and I used to think wow he's such a tough guy how does he do this you know what would I realize it just wasn't an issue for him this was fine he didn't feel a Clash you know he didn't feel the conflict there and I'm like and I wanted to look at this again I think being clinically honest in myself going okay well people don't feel a clash they don't feel The Clash right it's totally fine they don't have to worry about should I stay or should I go it's an old Clash song they're like they can just roll along and like do their thing you know and that's I that has been something I really had to think about because I want to be intellectually honest and emotionally honest person I don't I want to accept other people kind of like where they're at and that that's where the person is that's cool for cats for them right so it's interesting yeah I don't know if that means that people are going to make in terms of Happiness it's good whether or not people are going to make a whole lot of like psycho spiritual progress I talked with Ryan Davenport about this our Anthropologist on call um and um and it was like he raised this point before I did he was like well you know that might not be the most psycho-spiritually progressing life and I was like yeah I don't know what to say about that maybe it is maybe it is and I don't know it would seem weird for me to say that you can't get enlightened living in like Woodstock Illinois up like you know hour and a half from Chicago and your small community why can't you that would seem like a bizarre thing I have a good friend who lives out there and actually I think he's he's working on it pretty intensely actually so yeah so that's it would seem like just because other person other someone else doesn't see it the same way I do that would seem kind of like a bizarre thing right right and I'm sure there's lots of case studies of really nice Japanese housewives who meditate their Zen and like become enlightened so it's fine you know it has to be fine but it was something I really had to think about I think I'm trying to get what Young what Young's opinion on this was because again again I did a really deep dive through this memories dreams reflections and then what I think I get him saying because he does talk about this at a couple of points he says something like if you do feel this clash and you don't kind of go through and actually push it through to express maybe the more authentic person of who you are you can't blame people because there's a lot of resistance for that if you happen to feel it right on the other hand he kind of goes like well at the same time he kind of says like I can't totally respect that either you know if you really feel this and you don't push it through then you know there's no blame but maybe there's also not like a lot of like applause for that either he kind of takes that attitude I'm not sure what I think about that either but that does seem to be what he's saying so and he does have this kind of concern about what it means to be an individual there's this book of his called the Undiscovered self and he talks about like everyone is an individual he gets this great metaphor of the rocks on the beach I can't remember if we talked about this one Daniel did we so he says like you know if you do the average of the rocks on the beach you might find the average weight is like uh two pounds or something for the rocks on the beach or something but you know on any individual Rock if you pick it up you're not going to get a two pound Rock right all the rocks are going to weigh different amounts and it's sort of his critique of like statistics and Science in a way you know every rock is going to be different you know and I was like that's a brilliant way of putting that you know and if you found a two pound Rock you'd be pretty surprised right you know that you'd be shocked actually you expect them all to be different at the same time though because the thought that came next and I've had this thought as a clinician really for for years and years is that most people are going to be pretty the same and pretty kind of predictable you know and so I think what he's saying there is that the reason why people get kind of predictable and kind of more narrow versions of themselves is because there's what rock was talking about one of our episode other episodes they adapt right so the behavior gets really really predictable right they don't ever express their own individual nature their own individual rockness they try to make themselves into the two pound rock or something I think he thinks that that's bad if you're too pod Rock good for you be a two pound Rock but if you're not you gotta kind of express your own thing I think that's what he's trying to say I know what do you think about that well there's there's kind of two points here right one is the the median doesn't exist yeah yeah um um and so I I and then the other you know I forgot the other part I was gonna say but there's two parts there but so only one part exists you know and I I think that's like oh no accepting accepting of where people are right what's the other point oh yeah that's true too that uh you know our on College our oncologist on call or anthropology or anthropologists on call who's not an oncologist but maybe another lifetime you know um so okay so on the first part accepting yeah you have to you don't have a choice because if you don't accept where people are then you will struggle with judgment and critical and being critical of that that's true you know so so you have to and this goes back to our our discussion earlier on agreeing and disagreeing right because this is so it's just funny like that was what I felt was going to be important for this episode and it keeps coming you know I think that's the that's the hook of it right yeah without a doubt that like just because you don't hold those same beliefs again even if that person is is you know you think like I you think and this could be somebody you love like I love you and I think you could be living your life at you know at a higher functionality I'm not saying more productive on like a western sense like well you could produce 10 projects instead of nine no no I mean it's like you know if you just like could just get your head together right no I mean like a person could be living a happier more contented life you know we'll just say that who wouldn't who doesn't want that everybody wants that but they're on their own path and you cannot simply apply your methodology to their life just like other people might have the same for us so it's you know it's a circular firing squad on some level yeah you know the only thing at least in my thought to do is wait until somebody asks right because then they lower the drawbridge we've talked about this in the podcast a while back but like lowering the draw allowing somebody to lower their drawbridge around the protective mechanisms around their mind and around their heart to intentionally and actively allow you in then you can have influence but not before you're just shooting you're shooting arrows at the at the castle wall like bouncing right off bouncing right off constantly so you have to wait you have to practice okay that's like potentially clinical resistance yeah yeah you have to be you have to have patience that's that's it that's and so the practice for you then or for us or for whoever's listening is to wait for that opportunity to come and then when the time comes to take it right so that's that's kind of part of it and then finding the the middle doesn't really exist because there's no average person you know what is that what would their name be you know who are what about them is average you know what I'm saying I mean his point is like the trouble is that and I don't know the answer to this I'm still wrestling with this but the societal thing will squeeze people into a certain shape sure that's the weird question and I don't know where the boundaries are in that and how I think about this I get the idea that people are where they are you know he's also raising this point of like why and you have this as a clinician you notice this so when he said this in the book I was like Hallelujah because I had that thought you know each person is individual they have their own if you want to be really Buddhist about it they have their own karmic spiritual about they have them their karmic things that they're bringing in yeah right that are infinite kind of yeah why does it all kind of produce the same widgets at the end of the social system sure because trying to make things into a certain shape yeah so I think that's what he's wrestling with too and I think I respect him for at least asking the question you know because it's not an easy one right right okay so when I got to the point where they thinking about okay where are the points of clash and it hit me like okay I think there's like three major points of conflict that I I'm trying to understand and it's been I think a theme in our podcast from the very beginning uh maybe four of them I'm sorry so I kind of looked at his like well you can have clashes and Jung felt this obviously so we were kind of talking a little bit off Mike about this maybe where I can kind of relate to Jung because he thought like a clash at almost every single part of his personality with what was being asked to him in the external world and I guess I feel that too and probably always have and he talks about that feeling that young and I think I felt that Jung felt that young and it seems like uh yeah I felt that young too but not young because I didn't know who he was yet but uh you know so some of it seems to be like in spirituality so for young you know he was raised in this very Christian household his families were all Parsons and he broke and he went Gnostic and now chemical and probably Pagan on some level right he still obviously writes a lot about Christianity but the Christianity that wouldn't look like his fathers for sure you know and then for me I went from you know being raised Catholic Christian first to Zen and then the whole thing took off and I'm like way far away from my starting point you know so I think you could have spiritual clashes where you're like okay I don't Vibe with the world view the spiritual world view of the culture I'm in right it's obvious like he feels that too like he's not Christian and he's not scientific materialist either so Jung feels that in his life I mean probably the reason why he ultimately broke up with Freud in a major way was Freud was like a scientific materialist person representing that part of western culture and young was like I'm not um so I can't I can't follow this dude I can't be a representative of his ideas I don't agree with him and it's like it took some kones to do that bride's a much more famous person right he could have been this like just this guy kind of living under this the wings of this other kind of much more dominant figure right and just kind of gone along but he chose not to he broke right right and a lot of it had to do with his spirituality yeah and I think it has to do with the world of work then too my second big idea you might feel like I can't work in the way that maybe the society would want me to work the the opportunities it's giving me I can't accept them they won't work for me and that like you could kind of I saw that in Jung too he goes through multiple work crises he has to break up with Freud he has to break up with uh the University at some level because he's like I can't teach what the university wants me to teach because I don't believe it in it anymore and I can't represent it properly and I don't know what else to say so I'm going to have to go through and I'm gonna have to break up with this now he married into a wealthy family he didn't have the financial concerns that a lot of us would have a lot of us have to do what we have to do just because okay okay bye I can't afford to do that right but he obviously recognizes that his life would have been easier if he just would have like stayed in the fold of either the Freud fold or the University academic maybe more scientific materialist fold but he feels like he has to break up with them and he gets a lot of about it there's no doubt that this creates a lot of conflict with people around him but he did it so and I guess it's something that maybe you and I can relate to too because we were like well how are we going to work in this culture I can do what my friend did I couldn't live his life I couldn't go to Corporate America right it would like wrap me inside you know but other people can it doesn't feel bad for them and that's fine or maybe it feels bad for them just because they're not against it in principle but the particular place they are kind of sucks right but it's not a point of principle they're just like in a shitty situation yeah and I began to think about this kind of deep because I realized like well some people will feel some intrinsic conflict like I did or maybe young did some people they don't have an entry like I have friends and family that maybe their work situation sucks but it's not because they're philosophically against it it's just because yes it just turned out kind of funky for them and the environment they're in is kind of toxic but it's not in principle that it bothers them you know what I mean it's kind of like being in a bad marriage or something you might believe in marriage but you're just yours just happened to be kind of Rocky and so you know but it's not because you don't believe in the idea stuff like that yeah I guess raising a family is kind of part of this too what your values are on raising a family yeah I'll take you on the parental roles but I know for me um uh I don't know much about this with Jung to be honest you know I'm going to look at one of the deep biographies of Jung to see what he was like as a parent I'll see if I can find it out because I am curious because I'm trying to write this book but you know the other part is like for myself I know like I feel like on some level I was like I'm not gonna whatever the American idea with a parent is supposed to be and I think there are ideas of it you know what you're supposed to be as a mother or a father what that means how you're supposed to act I think there's ideas around that you know I could say for me I was like nope I'm not doing that you know and I'm gonna like I'm going to take the attitude that my kids are kind of like my little soul mates and I'm going to raise them as if we're kind of like in a mutual soulmate adventure together which is probably deep to my way of thinking about the world anyways but I mean that's a conversation that I've had I think we talked about in one of our previous episodes and with my son I was like you're my you're my little soul mate you're one of my little like cachet of soul mates and I'm going to learn from you and you're going to learn from me and we're gonna go back and forth it's not just like you're gonna be learning from me I'm gonna learn from you right and I tell them that a lot we're on a shared thing together sometimes I'll have to be like I'm the dad you have to do what I say sorry right get in the car and others get in the car put your shoes on we gotta go yeah yeah um but uh um yeah but it's also like I this is how I communicate with my kids you know and I don't I don't know if that's probably not the way most people would do it but it fits into it fits into how I see the world right and then I guess the last one of these that would be big with how you think about relationships which is obviously our major topic of this series so I see four major ways I know if you have other ideas with that Daniel if you do I'm interested but I kind of see those as like the four major aspects of life where you might be like okay cool this is how the society is this doesn't bother me I'm rolling along I'm good or you might feel like nah this doesn't work for me I'm going to grind against this what do you think I think there's anything major I missed there off the top of your head no not not major um just point yeah I mean other points you know I think probably they're all going to fall under the the spirituality heading you know um I don't think that Society pushes creativity yeah yeah you know and I and I feel like that's such a huge part of people's lives whether they realize it or not you know and if it's there then it's a huge part and when it's not there it's a gaping hole you know and it doesn't necessarily mean like getting a brush and painting on an easel you know doing things creatively but but even just having the idea that like that's the place that you do that and I have some patience when I ask them about where do they get to practice their creativity they're like oh actually it's through my work via problem solving that's where my creative Outlet comes so they so they enjoy working because they are able to do that in that way and that's how they do that for them but they're they're conscious of it and so they're using it as an outlet so sometimes you don't have to do anything different actually externally but the way that you approach my childhood friend I was talking about who works in the corporate world it's exactly the ad he says those exact words yeah and I and I've heard it a couple of times and so and I'm not doing that but I can respect it because then I ask okay well tell me about it and they do and I'm like oh okay yeah no that absolutely is creative it's just in a different in a different medium you know and so I'm not gonna get the attitude of like you should do some of that more in your personal life too but that's just you know young being young right right and so in this but in this way the discussion is there right like we want to bring it to the Forefront of your mind so this way you know that's what you're doing you know um and I think yeah I I think the prioritization probably of oneself right and so all of like so which again maybe fall under spirituality it falls under spirituality but so you know but it's a good one to mention obviously right yeah I just because I don't I don't know where that I mean it could be but that could also be I think Jung sea spirituality as the creation of a self or something the discovery and creation of yourself sure I mean he kind of says that you know his whole life well I think he kind of says like has been an exploration of the unconscious but like also this exercise of individuation right and and in this way then making yourself a priority via your spiritual practice if you want to or nowadays especially with via work and boundaries around work or finding work that expresses who you are or finding work that gives you time or freedom to do what it is that you want to do or you know however that works for you you know and then the same thing going with the family and within your relationships that you're going to find things that are going to Foster your ability to do the diving within yourself I know Society does not they do not that there is no talk of any of that there is no you know like you if you were for some place you might get a a sick day you know or vacation time but you know if you want like to go on Retreat you take your vacation time for that no one's asking you you know what I'm saying like yeah yeah yeah yeah you know how's that book that you're you know what I'm saying like how's that yoga coming yeah right but it's kind of um I mean that goes to the point there's some societal problem in this that you're going to have to look at some way or another yeah there's something there you're going to look at yeah for sure all right so the next big thing for me was this idea of what I really kind of hit me was I think it's just a question of like a difference in underlying worldview foundational worldview and maybe even like metaphysics or something that people see the world in like radically different ways again I've been trying to talk with people about this the entire time we've been doing I talk about people with our episodes all the time but specifically these and I got to the point where and then and then looking at Jung too and I was like well obviously Jung just has a different view of how the world works it doesn't think like Freud he's not a darwinian you know evil psych person he doesn't think like his dad he doesn't see the world through that Christian frame he sees the world differently it's like a like an actual metaphysics that says the world is just not what these two points of views think it is and so I have my own way of thinking what the world means what it is I just see it differently and um and that I think what I find so fascinating about that is that that then kind of permeates through everything that ripples through everything because if you have a different metaphysics then what you think family means what you think work means what you think love relationships mean any of these things mean is just different like you just don't see the world through the same framework I don't have a like I don't have the view of like my grandma who would be like the major christian figure on the household that I grew up in and I don't have the view of my dad either who's like would look at themselves as being sort of probably like a biological materialist person I don't have the world view you know and those are probably the dominant worldviews in this culture so I'm not going to like match and I guess that's what I kind of see in young too he was eventually like I don't match with these folks and it like affects everything he's going to think differently about work he's going to think differently about love relationships family do I don't know as much about this how he handled his kids I'll try to find out you know but like the whole thing is just going to be different it's a different metaphysics right that makes sense what I'm saying yeah it's pretty deep actually once you really think about it yeah I've had conversations with friends and I'm like like ultimately now I'm just saying like well listen our metaphysics of the world are not the same right you're a biological materialist there's no argument for us to have we can debate maybe but our core way of seeing things is just different so I'm never going to be able to agree with you and it's not like you're illogical everything you're saying is perfectly logical there's nothing for me to argue with it's fine I just we have to accept that we don't see the world the same way right I don't think the world works the way you think the world Works correct there's other levels or other aspects of reality for me that you don't think exist right so we don't see the world the same way and so we're not going to think about parenting the same way I have to believe that my son is incarnated in many many lives well the other the other many many abilities we've met before sometimes he'll be my dad sometimes I'll be his dad sometimes we'll be friends that's a different world view so it's going to change the way I function as a parent the other thing you know you asked me what what was one another one that that you might have missed in terms of this clashing yeah um I don't know if we want to call I I want what I want to say is time we can also say resources but we're gonna just keep it for time because the way in which you're viewing time is that you're you know there's this reincarnating thing but that means that time is different right our existence and our relationship to it is it varies and that is not something that Society talks about the you know at least in in Western wise we view like youth as the prime right youth as the peak and then as that goes away more time more old bad not good you know and at some other time it might have been different you know who knows why that's that's the way that it is I'm not totally sure but I think the way in which you view that can change how you do all the other things which includes how you spend it right how do you spend it looking at yourself how you spend it working how you spend you know raising your kids all that other stuff I I think and maybe because I'm reading that book uh by dining but I think it it reframes your perspective with things actually you know and it it's a it's a continual reminder of this like things are events you know that have a beginning and middle and an end to them and sometimes they're longer or shorter but based on where you are in relation to them you're also part of that event and all these things are happening happening at the same time whatever but it's going to be finished at some point you know and so how do you prepare yourself for that and if you're living kind of oblivious to that then your actions are going to be different in the world and with other people and if you're conscious of that I think then your actions and your interactions with with in the world and with other people will be different as well well if like my friend I'm thinking of someone in particular now is like a biological materialist he's going to say like okay he basically thinks human beings are kind of like little AI robots right so he'll describe me as like a Buddhist chat GTP you know that's how he thinks and I'm like well that's a different world view entirely and he likes to be logical and I'm like there's nothing wrong with your logic where star our premises are different you know like our axioms are not the same right so so the time frame is different you're right because my I was I was telling my son you know he was kind of feeling down in this you know it's an episode we did before but he was kind of feeling a little modeling and existentially troubled like he was some French philosopher like uh Shane smoking in a beret in Paris what's the meaning of anything what's the purpose all our lives are going to end I was like no no no no no you knew me before you'll know me again some way or another this is our time together it's my job to help you it's your job to help me we love each other we're little soul mates helping each other that's a different framing entirely it's going to mean something different how you think about love it's gonna mean something differently about how you think about like uh work right you're not going to see that the same way it's just different you know he could say well what's the point of me building up these skills you know I'm just going to die someday and I was like no the skills you bring up now are going to carry with you into other experiences you're going to have in other lifetimes those are those are latent talents you're going to have I have his chest up in the background that's why you can play chess why this is so easy for you relatively speaking I mean it's not Magnus Carlson or something but he could play relatively easily why because you know this already you're just remembering something that you already knew you know I mean Plato talks that way too right the stuff that you know you're remembering right because you built up those potentialities at other times that's how it is I mean I've said it gone right it's a different view on time right I've said it before like the the learnings the the kind of like the breath of fresh air in your brain mind when you learn something new to me feels exactly the same as when you remember something oh you know what I'm saying when it hits you an epiphany an epiphany and a memory or like they're like two sides of the same coin you know very close the question is very similar are you learning it are you remembering it yeah Jung has that funny thing too that I think is very close to your spirit where he's like I had it in the dream therefore it's true because that's my Collective unconscious talking to me it's letting me know something through the dream I didn't create that some people would say well that's just creation of your own mind Jung says no you're learning something in that dream state you know that wasn't really produced by you that's why it's so reliable because your conscious ego mind didn't produce it that's a certain view of the world that's right right yeah so anyways we're getting to the end of this episode and it's a total ripoff because I didn't do my big reveal no I mean this is the plan yeah so I I think um uh the last thing I wanted to say about this one is we get to the closer because you got a hard break in five minutes but yeah to me what I really wanted to say and we've already probably already said it was the purpose of these episodes we've been doing for me has has been a lot of like looking at myself and looking at where I feel um potential clashing conflict you know um this non-concordance between myself and the environment right that's an important issue for me and and so I want to talk about my own version of this we'll do this like next week and the love and relationship field but I wanted to talk about especially because you know beyond my own personal concerns I think everyone's going to have this thing right where there might be other aspects where they don't Vibe with what's being asked about asked of them so I wanted to like just really say that that was kind of the the main idea of this whole Preamble thing for me it's not just you know so you know we can talk about ourselves or something right okay who cares it's more like okay we could reveal things that are our own points of what we're trying to figure out what we're trying to wrestle with where we feel like we Clash or don't Clash again how we're trying to resolve that in different ways that might be uh the things that matter to you and me might resonate with some people because they have the same things right they might feel those same conflicts in the same areas of life but even if you don't it's the bigger issue you know the point of doing the episodes in part is to say yeah there's something where you might feel this conflict and it's like maybe like the way Jung felt and this area of life this is unavoidable I have to do this thing even though I know this is going to create conflict and my life might be easier if I didn't do it right this way but I have to do it and I think that's the point of empathy that I wanted to try to build here with this now wherever that is for anyone who might be listening to this episode you know you might not feel it in the same places that I do or Daniel does or whatever but if you do feel that someplace this is an episode for you in the sense that we can empathize with this idea right and you have to wrestle with this all right does that seem like that's logical too yeah probably it does yeah I think the auto auto wrong thing was something like you can either adapt but if you adapt in a way that's artificial it's going to be bad right it's gonna what he essentially says Daniel is it's going to kill your creativity you know it's going to kill some part of your creative Spirit you're going to lose it because the adapting will be artificial it'll cut you off from the deeper parts of yourself he says sometimes you go through periods where people will get kind of anxious neurotic nervous and it can be a good thing because that's the moment where you realize like okay my adaptation isn't working I have to do something different and in the moment of feeling that you have to do something different you might feel afraid anxious even guilty on some level right why should I not do what my family said why should I not do what you know other people are doing why should I who am I you know why am I entitled to do this you know but the idea is that like that's the kind of an artificial guilt and then you get to go your own way then you get to like re-tap into your own creativity whatever that means for you something like that mm-hmm that's my Capper on that part what do you got on that I think we agree generally right yeah yeah we'll have to agree to disagree after all this you're like no this is total I'm never doing this podcast again you just pull the mic out at the whole shot down slam it up yeah no no I I know it's an interesting point yeah no and I think what's cool he says that's where people feel neurotic where you feel nervous anxious afraid guilty is sometimes the best place to be because that tells you where you might actually want to like you don't want to adapt in that spot and it creates anxiety fears and like guilts and so on this is like my first experience with like Buddhism you know I came up with my kids this week they were like how did you first get interested in Buddhism I was watching Joseph Campbell our beloved Joseph Campbell uh you know great Mythic philosopher and he was telling the three Trials of the Buddha the first one was not to succumb to fear the second was not to come to like just come to like artificial desires right don't get swayed Away by artificial desires but the third one was really fascinating me when I was watching this when I was a kid we talked about this in previous episodes probably but it fits in here where the big one was the last trial of the Buddha was like who are you to go through and break with what your dad wants you to do what Society you want you to do who are you to do that what about your duties and your societal roles and you're supposed to be a prince and blah blah blah and Buddha had to go no I'm not going to do that either and he broke right so it's this moment of like you know being able to say okay this is the place where I have to break if you have to if you don't you're cool it's interesting it is very much so yeah well Eric all right cool you got a boogie yep yep but uh good stuff and so you know we'll we'll uh continue with Eric's big reveal next week let's probably be like anti-climactic people like well you know whatever that's why it'll be probably the culmination of a relationship series probably yeah whatever you feel about this stuff too Daniel probably we'll kind of finish this whole series up yeah and then we could get back to talking semi trucks [Laughter] we'll talk about what's his face uh Rama Swami I don't know who knows oh yeah that guy who uh yeah yeah that's his name actually and it doesn't matter how many younger trumping guy who's like yeah who knows I don't know yeah but yeah but that we could totally not do that anyways uh Eric as always thank you so much for for being on here um audience thank you for listening thank you for the feedback thank you for rocking with us if you've been with us for the last three years or the last three minutes you know we're uh appreciative everything if you have any questions comments concerns um hit us up gin and Tantra gmail.com or hit us up on the Instagram Jin and Tantra uh if you're watching this or on YouTube then you know like comment subscribe if you're listening to this on Apple podcast leave a review it helps the show feel free to feel obligated to share encourage maybe it's better uh to share with friends family enemies uh Frenemies or co-workers or people you don't even know uh it helps out the show you know this is a labor of love uh and we love all you all for listening so for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]