[Music] one hey fellow G and tears those of like spirituality with a Twist whoa you came in hot man you gave me a weird counting you're trying to [...] with me I am you're trying to screw my [...] up so I was like I better come in like I better come in swinging yeah um all right so uh where are we at in this we we're talking about Karma mood and that led to which is the use of pleasure Bliss sexuality for Spiritual practice Yeah and then uh we got an interesting question from a listener who was asking about different ways of thinking about Bliss and spirituality so we did a little thing to talk about that yeah shout outs to shout outs to him because I know he's listening and uh he responded again with this really really wonderfully worded email and uh yeah so we appreciate we appreciate that because I do feel like uh the questions that we have got from our listeners most of them uh there was a couple that were not so hot but most of them are really intelligent really well thought out and I can tell that like it's not just that people are listening that they're engaging with the material that we present and that that is a really great honor and so we're we we love those kinds of things so you know we respond Jin and Tantra gmail.com I know I shout it out at the end and we've been shouting it out for the last four plus years but Jin and Tantra gmail.com hit us up we do respond and if something is worth addressing we will take an episode or sometimes more and uh try and and you know think about what it is that you're you're asking that was interesting in the last episode this people to get a chance to hear it because it went in all kinds of directions that you know we weren't necessarily like anticipating in the beginning yeah right we were kind of addressing this question of bliss but there were other things to talk about including like questions about religion in general and so maybe that stuff will pop up along the way we were talking like off mic before we started like who knows where this one will go so hopefully another Lively and uh who knows where the [...] it'll go episode but we'll end up talking a little bit about caror mujo so I had we were really get like we're using Dr Nita's stuff who's a Tibetan doctor and also like a tantric teacher we're kind of using his stuff as kind of the basis and he poses this thing of going well what what are questions people have about this what are doubts people have about this and he tries to address them so we're kind of using that as our starting point to kind of talk about this stuff when we gotten like issues about like finding Partners choosing Partners which opens a whole door of just like how do you handle relationships in your personal life try to try try to make it spiritual try to make it meaningful and so anyways we're kind of that's that's where we're at a little bit and then maybe we'll talk a little bit about whether Karma muja has patriarchical elements but we'll see if other things pop up along the way so for me I just wanted to go just to pull us back to where we were for me I you know if I were to boil my thoughts down on this like deep down and I wanted to throw this phrase out there because we're going to try and to write our little book nine things that can [...] up your life and uh I'm going to use this little phrase in there so if I were to boil my thoughts on it would go something like this I think we're all presented in our lives with special people to connect with in various ways to me I would call this probably like the roomy principle and I'll probably use that in our little discussions of thing nine things that can affect your life I believe this is like sincerely true and this has been sort of part of our conversations and there it is I think this can happen in a variety of circumstances and conditions it's not entirely controllable when these people appear you and I both know that Daniel you never know when someone is going to appear in your life who might be someone who's meaningful you don't know you have no idea you have no idea it's like totally unpredictable and it's just an act of The Da or whatever you want to say yeah or the Buddhist goddesses doing their magic tell God your plans and uh he'll probably laugh at them isn't that the old line I'm believe that is I believe that is the line yeah so wherever it appears it'll appear um the roomy principle to me or the roomy rule you want to make it a little bit more litera um would be like okay you have to accept that these things appear where they appear and try to make the most of them right that's I think for me while I thought the definitions of what we were calling Karma mudra should be kind of broad you know so going back like episodes ago we had looked at ways in which people talk about levels of this kind of connection between people and how they may manifest and so this was the idea like sometimes they'll talk about smiling at someone you know you connect in that way communicating with someone holding hands kissing embracing so there's like levels of intimacy between people that can be there right and all of those can be spiritually transformative and meaningful you know not every relationship is going to be a sexual relationship but other ones you know that can be Spirit spiritually alchemical right and dr's neas thing he said looking and watching the seeing of people the talking and laughing with another person the connecting in that way sharing thoughts ideas emotions hugging and touching and then he finally gets to uniting so either way it's framed in four ways right and so for me I thought yeah you I was I was just thinking about this episode and I thought well I wanted to say that because for me that's sort of like so core to my ideas about this I wanted to put that out there again for folks to really think about that right so as we're going through our lives we can make the most of those things when they appear recognize things Amaze the most of these things when they appear and I think you and I both have some idea in us that it's a tragedy to let those things go un uncultivated or something right that is a tragic thing you don't want to do that too much right yes okay um in a certain level going back to our little estra parel stuff around this I think to me that constitutes almost a definition of uniqueness or something right sure kind of core to it so you know we talked about this sometime even back in 2023 and her name pops up occasionally in our conversations she's the great kind of a writer psych relationship psychologist you know clinical psychologists like relationship kind of Guru person and she uses this language of exclusiveness for relationships that are maybe more like sort of traditional and then relationships that more can be more untraditional but in any case are based on the idea like there's something unique about my bond with this other person yeah I think way we described it which I I use quite often is that like the exclusive view of relationships is that the love love exists because you and I are in a sealed container and it's and that that this love is exclusive to this thing right now and the uniqueness person views it as love exist probably I'm being very general right but love exists period and it comes out in these unique situations I.E my relationship with this one my relationship with that one my relationship with that one and so on and so forth um and so therefore love probably is a little bit more um like a universal Force I don't mean to put High thoughts in people's minds so let me you know lower you definitely mean to put High thoughts in people's minds well I mean yes I guess I guess like uh to to say just because you're uni you're a uniqueness person or an exclusive person I'm not saying that like your view is of loves is limited because of that choice I'm not you know and I you know I don't we don't like to Counterpoint myself but I'm want to make that distinction just for our conversation purposes you know okay I got what you're saying man but does that make sense yeah I get what you're saying yeah it's like a these are not easy subject matters it's been really interesting we were talking beforehand and we had to have these conversations about you know like the authoritarian aspects of Christianity we were talking about that you know it's painful it's not easy to talk about these things so you know some of these things we you're saying one thing but you're also like okay I want to make sure I don't be too extreme about what I'm saying right right right yeah yeah but you still gotta say the thing you know so yeah so I think you know if I if I were to as I think about you know some of our projects that we got ongoing I would say yeah when they use this roomy rule idea cuz it does it pushes your envelope of things right and you know one of the things with the whole roomy story and for me I've really tried to integrate that roomy idea into my sort of cor of spiritual beliefs is like you know when something is special you recognize and you act right right it's a little bit outside of like outside the box even if you're cutting Outside the Lines a little bit that's the roomy story right so but on the other hand so I I wanted to throw that out there and again I don't mind being the like uniqueness person in this particular podcast I'm totally cool with it and when it comes up it'll come up and we'll talk about it briefly and you know okay so I'm cool with that but I wanted to kind of bring that up for me the big thing would be maybe Opening Our Eyes to like these four different levels and thinking okay I could have connections with people in different ways and they can have a certain amount of intensity and passion to them not everyone is going to be sexual but that can be still part of a Karma mudra too and that might be a way that we'll think about Karma mudra under our karmic circumstances right cultural circumstances what were some of the ones that you and fedra you know shout outs to our fedra episode the uh what was that called becoming the uh the Unicorn or something like this yeah yeah yeah what were some of the ones that you guys you had mentioned one like the saposexual and what were oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah okay cool yeah so the saposexual thing is when people feel like an intellectual connection yeah right or people who like find intellectual connection like erotic romantic yes you know that's what that's that's where their kick is right yeah that's where their trip is and and then demisexual is people who want the emotional connection it's the emotions that drive them yeah right yeah yeah so those are some of the you know the buzz phrases in the culture now but I think those words are handy right are there any more um no I think those are the two ones that pop out most obviously I think they're making this like I think the reason those things came up is there's people who don't want to engage in sexual stuff unless they have those other criteria right got it requirements and yeah I remember you know having conversations with my daughter about this she's now uh 22 yeah and it's hard like to know who she is exactly she wouldn't mind me talking about this you know she's as open as can be um but it's not obvious who she is yet in terms of this part of her identity but she's definitely looking for something deeper and we had these kind of funny conversations about there's asexuality and demisexuals and sapio like all this language is being cross around a little bit maybe it's dying off somewhat but I still think they're handy words I mean what about people who dress up like babies what about what are they call well that's a thing okay that's a thing I don't remember what the word for that is but that's a thing okay all right I was listening to this mystery thriller and that was like part of the whole story they were trying to crack the case and it was all these men kept coming out of this house and it turned out they were all in there just to wear their diers ah it was a major plot Point recently but in any case yeah that's a thing I can't remember what the word for it is yeah but you know I think this is like I think aot things a lot of us can feel and you know when I was talking with my daughter about it she was like well you know she doesn't want to she's not a casual sex kind of a person I'm a dad so I'm totally fine with that on some level right right you're like if she wanted to be casual sex person that would be cool too whatever she wants to do you back her play you know um she's her own being doing her own thing but we started like throwing these words around you know sap seexual saposexual U Demi sexual these kinds of words and uh yeah I think she's still trying to figure out what describes her but I think those words are handy you know it gave her something to like kind of contemplate yeah but I think like if that becomes true you know because again I think one of our goals in this is to make these things doable for people in the here and now right right and not everybody's going to be some poly Karma mudra person right right that's not going to be appropriate for everybody's lives but there's other ways you can engage in examples of this that still fit into those ideas right I can be still be close and have something that's you know again a spiritually or chemically meaningful relationship hold on I I know this is very random I I never understand when is the appropriate time to use panish has to do with people who are naive okay all right there we go I didn't you know when you said ply that the first thing that came to my head with ply an and I was like I don't think I don't think that fits here you know but like whatever I guess I'm being panish that's a little naive all right perfect there we go but so yeah so polyamory uhuh people get confused about those words though that's true if you were to do a semantic thing because I've had conversations with people and they're like people are polygamous and you're like well no that's like having multiple wives if you're a Mormon or something yeah yeah yeah no we're not we're not doing the legal we're not doing the legal thing I don't even know her birthday what are you talking about getting married married you know that's a different deal you know so people got that all that jargon yeah we did have the episode with fedro we were talking about some of that language right yeah yeah um but you know like opens the door for people to be able to have some of these Karma mudri experiences maybe in situations where otherwise it wouldn't be accessible to them you know because of their relationship situation and so on so essentially what you're saying is that what we're what we're doing which I guess I didn't realize that we had we were do you were doing this but as Karma mudra as a as a practice of Union often SE sexual we'll use this word specifically that like the term sexuality doesn't have to be physical in nature it doesn't have to be penetrative in nature that sexuality has other branches to it I.E saposexual demisexual like and you're opening up the IDE you're removing the kind of like uh constant of physical intimacy as linked to sexuality or sort of decoupling those and saying sexuality is is an umbrella term that has these other pieces along with it and so one could engage essentially in a Karma mudric practice with somebody even if they were not uh in a physically intimate relationship well it may not be the karma mudra like you know the full-on sexually penetrated Karma mudra we can have that as its own de but you know I remember talking with a like like a very interesting friend of mine one of the quirkiest dudes I've ever met in my life though you fit with that too Daniel and I'll say that I'm quirky too we're a tree of Quirk sters you know if I think about the three of us in the in the best sense of the word I've never heard the term corst before but okay you're gonna have to own it yeah it's right but in any case you know I I had a conversation him he was like well you know sometimes that partner somebody you you know you meditate with yes there's a lot of Sexual Energy with that person but maybe you're never you know you're never sexually intimate in the in the fully you know uh penis vagina sense but there's still a lot of Sexual Energy being exchanged between you and that person and that's a thing you know and I guess that fits under me like the roomy rule in the sense that you can go okay you know we're roomy and Shams of to breze if you don't know the hor roomi story we've told it different times but you know he was this really well-respected madrasa religious figure who all of a sudden has his whole life turned upside down when this traveling Mystic enters into his world and they end up with this very intense very intimate relationship were they sexual with one another who knows you know the tradition says no like we've said multiple times but there was something intense happening between them and uh I suppose like I was interested in your opinion because I think what I'm trying to get across here is that you know maybe that's sometimes the way this will be but if we open up the doors to those kinds of experiences we can get a wider range of people using the bonds that they have you know the karmic bonds that they have being used in ways that people can feel comfortable with whatever so this is as an extension of your initial point of the of the roomy rule um The Double R as we call it here yeah but they never called it that before but that like the opportunity that the sort of opportunity that print presents itself Upon A karmic karmically charged meeting of two people to be transformative and or meditative or maybe we could say meditative and then transformative um is not limited to just sexuality because sexuality is a sort of a a an acknowledgment of a connection between people that can be alchemized built upon and then expanded you know or yeah expanded to to provide opportunities for growth learning life change you know all act Enlightenment activities yeah I think that that's uh I mean I like the way you're talking about to before as well like sexuality is bigger yes you know than just you know having your genitals touch another person's or offices in a certain way which is fun good times and yet you know you can make it broader if that was something that work between people you know and maybe that would be you know whatever is right between the two people they can decide for themselves but we if we make it bigger I think we have more things are going to be available to more people I think that's part of my goal yeah no I understand that there's an old prce song where he talks about that what's it called it's something like uh Little Red Corvette no not that one it's more of a deep cut purple purple rain that's not a deep cut that's like the most popular one ever Caribbean Queen that's Billy Ocean but our hearts are beating as one Daniel and I I did say that we're sharing the same dream yes um but you know when you look at he says something like you know we don't have to um boy we don't have to uh whatever level he talks about I'm forgetting the exact later but he say something like we don't have to like you know I don't have to be inside of you for us to make love we don't even necessarily have to take our clothes off you know right sometimes that's like there's an intensity that which when I went back and I thought about the karma mudra stuff on these different levels I was like yeah sometimes Karma mudra between two people is smiling or holding hands or yeah you know seeing that person or talking and laughing or hugging or touching the things that are for what we would say the more conventional sexual activities right yeah I guess my goal in this for me was like to make it bigger you know let's expand that out even in like the Freud world and stuff when they would use the word libido they didn't always just mean you know sexual intimacy in that sense they meant something that was bigger right let's make liido a bigger thing right to be more interesting I like the idea in case yeah it's interesting because I think what we're talking about and the way that I see this the the kind of roomy rule if you want to use that again is that like the universe or whoever will present opportunities and based on the recognition of the the people in those moments then the then you the opportunity could seem like something that that you can't miss and something that you might pass over you know what I'm saying and so it's up to you like you said to to uh to recognize that that's something but in the bigger point and more you know related to what we're saying right now is that you're kind of honoring this unspoken Bond or this unspoken feeling that's alive there's a resonance between both people and that like if there's energy there for communication then that communication can be through a variety of of mediums and sometimes it's the recognition of that intensity that you can you know ride on essentially I I know we just said it maybe like six seven minutes ago but you can and we're we're refining it so you know that's why you can use that potential right because it's powerful when there's a you know when there's some you know we call it chemistry or sexual energy or the presence of shaki or hormones or libido right is that you have this potential that you want to do something with some kind of energy and I keep doing this thing with my hands for those who are watching you know it's like this bubbling um trying to get the feeling of it yeah yeah but you're essentially you want to do something with the energy that's inside you're like okay I want to do this thing now often times that energy is wanting you know to be experienced to trans to be transformed into pleasure and therefore you choose orgasm right now hopefully you choose your partner gets one too but you know not often sometimes you just like no I want this for me we all do the best we can we tried I tried you know but you're you're saying that you know there's a multitude of ways that you can actually interact with that energy if you're not attached to a particular outcome and you have this kind of karma mudra mindset again which should be probably a hashtag trending on what used to be Twitter um right no more Twitter No More Twitter right not at all but you know hash Karma mutter mindset which is I'm going to take my energy the other person's energy and our relationship together and weave it towards something that transcends both of us but requires each of us yeah you know what I totally agree and I think that's what I'm trying to get to in a way to make this doable for people in a way and yeah if we get back to Dr Nita's point I don't have his little book with me today I brought some other ones depending on how far we get L some other little props for the video thing okay uh literary props but in any case you know he he's making a point that's very I I think we both agree with and we don't need him to like to think this but he does say it which is like there's parts of the deeper parts of the energetic system he uses this fancy Tibetan Tantra tur analogy of the figgly right the drops the subtle drops within the subtle channels within the chakras right yeah uh that really affect our minds but he kind of makes the point that those inner parts of the the whole tantric system what they call the vajra body and we'll do a whole deal with that when we get to the part of talking about that because we're doing Karma mudra so that'll be a thing do but you know like you know those parts of the inner person will resonate with another person very strongly yeah right and there's just special connections between bill they just a thing you know and it's really like a like the point he's making is it's something deep inside the two people that are resonating with one another yeah so you know to for those opportunities not to be lost to us and what it's essentially a non- tantric culture let's be honest right this is not a t culture this one this one oh okay yeah I'm trying to find out what we are as opposed to yeah we're stumbling along towards something but you know it's it's a judeo-christian culture it's not a tantri culture there are Tantra cultures on the planet but this isn't one no no so you know if you're gonna like to tr try to get like a tantric Vibe and philosophy out you know we're g to have to see how we make this fit into what's available and doable within our culture which is very different you know yeah if you were in like Tibetan world they might say well yeah of course you're going to be sexual with that person but that might not always be appropriate in our culture right right but you know you also don't want the opportunities to be totally lost so I'm I guess in my mind I'm trying to spread this out sure I think you know that's the roomy rul as far as I can tell so okay cool I I wanted to obviously we didn't talk about this ahead of time it's very clear at this point in the conversation but you know we like to Spring things on one another yeah for sure so uh I think we got we understand each other with this you know and I think there's a value in this to make this big but ual cool if it's not there's other ways to use those energies that might be more apprpriate between the two people yeah um okay so that was one of the things I had kind of lingering in this personally and then if and Eric if if other people and I'm and I'm deadly curious on this so if if people have these kinds of experience where you have consciously or even we'll say unconsciously but retroactively were able to reflect and say oh we did something with that if anybody has the experience of this you know of using the sexual bonds or the the intimate connections between you and somebody else um to to do something with it I don't know if that's a little bit vague but like to have that energy be present in a potentially nonsexual way for positive change uh we would certainly I I'd love to hear those stories I mean we don't necessarily have to share them on the episode unless someone would like we will if you would like that but definitely hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com like that would be very a very interesting uh exploration of this because I know I've done it personally um if you want to Daniel story I'll give you one um I was I was supposed to go on a blind date with somebody this is some years ago okay supposed to go on a blind date with somebody and she was going to meet me for drinks at this restaurant which is closed but it's in like wicker Lincoln Park Wicker Park Somewhere over there this is in Chicago for our inter International listeners so a little kind of slight not upscale but nicer area in Chicago so she's gonna meet me after dinner for a drink at the bar well at this point she's like in half hour late 45 minutes late an hour late you know I'm like whatever I only hung around because I was talking to the uh the manager who was an attractive um Italian lady who you know we exchang phone numbers and I was I told her I could do some uh like energy work on her you know but we had a very good we had very good chemistry you know but like I knew what my role was my role wasn't to like do anything else I just was going to do that but we definitely felt this Bond and so I won't go into it because I have told this story before on here um but I will say that like understanding that connection between us and having such a high amount of tension and then focusing that energy back towards her betterment even though we worked together only a few times uh it was a very very deep uh uh connection very deep healing for her this was the woman who I haven't told the story for a while but when I put my hands on her I saw a a younger girl in a in a in in a car being um essentially you know like uh physically assaulted by an older gentleman and that woman ended up being her mother which she never knew about but she was sort of caring in her body so what I'm saying is that like yes I have some you know abilities to do that kind of a thing but that accuracy that specificity to describe her teacher's face you know her her you know what a middle school teacher face and and know the circumstances around it like I don't get that kind of specificity and just using this opportunity to kind of coales my own memories I can definitely put back you know that I can put that all together and say yeah and for sure I we intentionally used the energy of our connection towards her betterment and so that is my uh story so I hope to get some listeners as well I remember you telling that one now I kind of remembered the beginning and I remembered the end but didn't remember how that connected together but when that you I remember like oh yeah I remember that whole thing cuz it was this shamanic moment for you of like kind of seeing through the familiar lineage or something yes to the ancestral trauma yeah yeah yeah I think we that was a powerful one yeah I've been in that kind of situation too um where like you can be really trans like it's I guess that's the point the energy can be somewhat malleable right yes totally you know there's a malleable quality to it and some of it can be sexual attention and things like that but some of it can you know it's it's it's energy yes right and the energy can be worked with right which is Tandra hello hello right yeah so um yeah I've been that situation too especially like I've known people who've been victims of sexual violence yes as a and it's been shared and you know in this case I'm talking about you know uh women that I've known you know just hetero women and uh who are victims of violence from men and at times you're able to be there's some connection with the person but you're also be able to be a safe person for them too and that's can be very healing right sometimes that's been a professional capacity you know as clinical work like officially I'm on the job and sometimes it's been people I've known in my life who've been hurt and you're like okay I'll be a male presence in your life yes you know sapio dem we're intellectually close we're emotionally close yes there's some love of some kind between the people that's an energy right love is an energy and uh but you know you're also to be able to be a safe person for that person yeah think of one person in particular you know uh we're not as close as we used to be but we knew each other very well back in our 20s and I was one of the first people she shared this with ultimately when we got to be closer I did some body work you know as I was learning my bodyw work things through my zen training and that was kind of good and to be a place where touch can be safe was powerful yeah and then when we talked about it afterwards she was very much like uh you know she told like uh ultimately that her H her husband right uh you know she was telling him like you know this person was really important in this case me right because I was a I was a figure that could be there in this part of her life where she was really hurt that could be that safe healing presence right it's doable and you know randomly but like I want to just give props to you know anybody who has uh dealt with sexual trauma in their life you know I don't know why this is coming to me but whoever is listening to this that needs to hear this like you know the fact that you went through that and you made it through that and you're a functioning person you know that has a sexual relationship and it's I mean like that is of that is such like an amazing um healing process and I know that we work with it professionally we definitely have seen this in the clinic before we've seen it in friends I mean we've seen it on this podcast you know uh Joanie Osborne talked about that you know whatever a couple years ago when we did our series you know that and so very powerfully actually absolutely absolutely and so we thank for you know we thank her for for sharing and and um you know we don't need emails on that but I just want to just give a deep props to people deep props of those people who have to go through that healing because it is a part of your being you know for sure and so as we're kind of talking about like the the the the sort of sexual gravitas here at this point that the sort of gravitational field around our connections to other people in a sexual Manner and and its various permutations as you had mentioned it's not a it's not a little thing you know it's not a little thing to be uh shamed or stifled or assaulted in that way because it is a very natural part of being a human being yeah it's like kind of getting to almost like the foundation of who you are in your Chinese medical sense too it's an assault on you know like um we do Chinese ma Theory occasionally but you know the the pelvis is where kind of the like sometimes us this word Jing the essence of the person is their constitutional core yes right and so it's getting attacked at some very core thing obviously one of the things I do say with students and then you know the last thing we'll say about that because it's such a deep subject matter but I do try to get it across with students that like our culture now is trying to make strides to to make this more conscious on this to make this more healing are we doing perfect no we're not we can look around at the culture now and say we are not very clear yeah but at least in terms of the the clinical work the healing aspects of things people in the healing professions I think it's really people are trying to be honest trying to make more resources available for people trying to make this a more accepting and healing space for people who need that kind of heing I mean we are making progress I I point out to students like you're not going to find this in the traditional Chinese medical literature they're not going to talk about this because they weren't able to acknowledge it right wasn't like that wasn't happening right they just the cultural resources to do that yes and there's parts of the culture now we're not we're not doing as well as we should we won't do all on it but we're not doing as well as we should but on the other hand we are doing better in some ways to like make it where people can share some of these things you know yeah yeah get support and healing and support other people who need to go through their own healing things yeah there there's acknowledgement for sure yeah it's starting to happen right okay um all right so that was the one thing I was talking about with this right and as I I'm like a really I'm totally fine with being the uniqueness person in this thing advocating for some of these uniqueness positions that's totally fine with me but the other thing I wanted to talk about was like okay if I'm looking at this from the point of view of okay I'll be the uniqueness person but we're talking about for more exclusiveness purse folks how do you integrate this into your life you know given that whatever the circumstances of your life are which is kind of like the underlying theme of this conversation for today right and so for me I just had some thoughts and I'd be curious to hear what your thoughts are to Daniel and we'll kind of pick it apart yeah but certainly there are people that we know who are practicing with significant others with a spouse that can happen if you get the two people who are right together right and I I invited on you know one of the Tandra couples that I know I won't give them by name now because they haven't fully committed and I don't want to like do that yet yeah but you and I know who we're talking about yeah right and um I thought maybe we talk to them kind of separately and then maybe kind of do a joint episode if they wanted to kind of share because they're in the community doing a lot of good work um but I actually like I don't know what the nature and I don't maybe it's private for them but I'm almost curious I don't know the entire Rel like what their relation is like I don't know if their exclusiveness or uniqueness I actually don't know you know but there are a couple practicing so you can have that right and we know people who do that one of the things that they said that was interesting is sometimes they would engage in sexuality just for the pleasure of it just for their relationship of it and sometimes they would be doing that for spiritual connection spiritual growth right and it was almost something they would decide almost beforehand before they go into a a session that where they were going knew they G to be intimate with one another intimate moments and they' be like okay well maybe we're doing this today maybe we're doing that today and I thought that was some good advice right that they kind of shared yeah um and then what occurred to me from what we were saying before what also hit me if you happen to have that kind of bond with another person that's of that type and they are your significant other you know then a lot of the other aspects of the four levels of this will probably be more naturally there anyways right it won't just be a sexual thing you'll have the joy of the laughing and the talking and the kissing and the seeing each other and you know all those other aspects right yeah you'll have probably you know potentially have that more full thing okay so I mean that struck me and that was worthwhile saying but I also wanted to be honest about this we're planning on doing a retreat kind of based on aspects of meditating on sexual and things and Bliss and things like that and it's happening for sure yeah it's happening yeah so you know uh to be honest it's not that all relationships have that component to it they really don't you know if we're going to be like totally honest about this yeah we try to be honest so yeah know if we're really honest about it not all or probably not even many relationships are built on sort of these psychospiritual grounds they're just not I would I would guess that most are not really I mean in order for them at least from my view in order for them to be built on these things someone or at least one but probably both people have to be practitioners of some psychospiritual thing and then want to consciously carry that into the relationship and therefore the other person has to be at least aware of that so that they can agree or disagree with something that they are familiar with and I mean I don't know how many legit psychospiritual you know I maybe maybe we could say the other way spiritual psycho people because I you know I I like the spirit I like the spirit to lead with it right but that like I don't know how many practitioners are engaged in that I don't know how many people are engaged in a legitimate practice and this is you know no shade to like new age type movement but I'm just you know having been around this you know maybe a little bit more than you have in the past Eric I don't know we haven't talked about it totally over the years but I've been around a lot of that you know you talk about new Agy things yeah totally okay okay yeah yeah I've been around a lot of it and and sometimes there's people who do really good work everybody's heart I believe not everybody but most people's hearts are in the right place not assuming people who are taking advantage um but I you know that the problem with that like things that are new Agy is that like they're all little doorways to traditions where that information was taken from but they don't often tell you where they came from they just say here's this thing here's this thing try these things but those things came from somewhere you know what I'm saying so I don't know if those people they could totally totally enter into a a conscious communion with someone else for sure but I don't know if what you're talking about is that kind of like bringing into uh bringing in psychos spirituality into the relationship as an idea of being aware of your energies behaviors and actions as a conscious couple if we could use that terminology versus practicing uh Tantra or practicing uh Karma mudra or even commas Sutra as a conscious means to interm mingle and experience higher states of ecstasy based on a particular practice or practices yeah I don't I was thinking about the new age thing but it's cool that you bring it up right I don't think I even got to that place in my mind you know but I hear what you're saying you know yeah for me I was like again just trying to be honest and we did a lot of these episodes on nine things that can [...] up your life and it's a you know little book project that we're chipping away at each at our own pace on this you know yeah but um uh which could be faster man for both of us we can call ourselves out but we're doing it definitely um but like to me if I'm really honest about it I think most of these kind of if I look at the people that I know most of the relationships are probably built on much more pragmatic grounds you know yeah yeah it's just the reality of things right you know people that's not under minded under to undermine what people feel about one another but you know they're kind of pragmatic things you know and uh you know there's person that you feel like you want to build a certain kind of life with right and so you know it's that's how these things tend to form right it's just the reality of it right and uh it's not it's just it's just the truth of this and they're not necessarily the kind of psycho spiritual things at the core occasionally happens but often times It Isn't So it raises this weird question of like to my mind so then what do you do right if you start to find yourself being drawn to something and you have this um you have this connection with another person that could be very meaningful to you you might have invested a lot of time and a lot of energy I'm actually like thinking of patience and people that I know and I'm sure you can too yeah when you start thinking about this right people put a lot of themselves into something maybe years and years into something and they're like okay you know and there's still an element where that they they value the person it's not that they don't but you know you're in a different head space right so sometimes those relation ship may end we can say that could be true but in other situations maybe they're not going to end right and so what someone do it's very interesting so I just wanted to try to talk honestly about that yeah and so the reality is you know someone's significant other may not want to meet you there they just may not be in that head space yeah totally they are it happens a lot right and you're around any clinical work you know I teach we're around psychos spiritual people this is happening all the time right yeah yeah yeah it's a it's a real thing it's a real thing and it and you know here's the thing if somebody is if somebody I you know from from my experience if somebody values the relationship and I know that I know it's more complicated than this but I just try to boil it down to the the deepest part if somebody really values their partner really deeply and that partner is like I need you to begin a meditation practice we need to communicate differently we have to talk on a more subtle level as opposed to always cleaning up messes right we need to work together consciously with awareness and mindfulness to unwind some of the patterns some of the attachments and some of the aversions in order so that we don't have to continue to do that so we can actually build a relationship as opposed to patch a relationship you know and I'll be honest I've only seen that maybe twice with someone who is into a pra someone who begins a practice of whatever and then the other person doesn't just tolerate it but actually makes changes on their own accord because they want to but I think it's because deep down that other person that their relationship meant so much to them that they're like oh [...] they're serious I had better had better do this thing and then actually like went in and and took the blue pill or the red pill or whatever pill took all the pills laen Lawrence Fishburn gave you a pill and you took the right one you you said give me both give me both I can't remember the name of his character Lawrence Fishburn morphus Morpheus yeah yeah um Kaiser so was the name I couldn't come up with in previous episode no one cares yeah I watch the usual SS come on Daniel I cared the usual it's kaer so anyways it doesn't matter but that bugged me afterwards what the [...] was the name of that character um anyways um so yeah I think that's possible right um that that can happen if you're more of a uniqueness person but a lot of these things aren't going to be that way well you just find somebody else that you can connect with yeah yeah it's kind of like the way it is sometimes in the world of Kink right you know sometimes it's like okay I'm kinking this other person isn't well I'll find a different person I can explore my Kink with and my other you know like you can you can do these things yeah I mean istically speaking that's probably not going to happen for a lot of folks we're an exclusive this culture we are yeah and people don't like it and don't because they're jealous they're jealous they are definitely jealous kudra it's a pettiness um yes you have to get over pettiness for sure it's a previous episode we were talking about the qualities of tantric personalities yeah but you know like if you want to be real about this okay you know and this can be you know sexual jealousies but even we have the whole emotional infidelity thing yeah don't like it you know people don't like it no um Esther Pell's reaction just to kind of Trot her out a little bit is really fascinating because I you know there's I watched one of the interviews with her and she's like emotional Fidelity can believe people came up with this [...] she's kind of just stunned whole notion of it you know but anyways it's part of the culture you know it's a deep part of the culture and you know it's just how it is so maybe you can go and get someone to join you in this space like you're saying maybe if someone really feels like okay this is important for the relationship and this person I'll I'll bend in that way I think that does happen but oftentimes it won't right I think it's very hard to like drag someone spiritually into something that they don't want to do I just don't know if that tends to just doesn't tend to be a thing you know and it's it's interesting why that isn't the case but a lot of times it just isn't you know it's just not in that person's range of who they are and they're probably not going to do it well it's a it's a matter of of a of a motivating factor you know internal motivational internal motivating factors are in at least in my at least in in my purview um infinitely more uh strong than those of an external motivating factor now you can internalize an external motivational factor for sure okay so what are we talking about let me I'll make it more practical if you would and I'll use something I'm familiar with if you want to lose weight for you because you got you know somebody made fun of you and you or you couldn't you were not in the starting Varsity or whatever you're doing this for yourself now you could say that the outside world is external but I'm saying that no one told you right you did it for you internally you're now driven this is it versus someone saying hey you should do this because it's not healthy or whatever they GNA have to find a way to get inside you I get what you're saying um so yeah so it it it's very difficult to like internally motivate somebody via the external to become spiritually inclined and your motivation for for leading um a psychos spiritual existence has to be I believe a very strong motivational Factor I.E I'm going to put those two things together is that you have to be internally motivated for this now again High psychedelic experience high do psychedelics can can shake the [...] out of you and make you believe or whatever near-death experience I've been using this terminology lately so I'm get I'm glad I get a chance to use it if you want to CH if you want to make change as an adult I think these are the ways uh psychedelics make an opening near-death experience makes an opening uh the birth or death of somebody makes an opening and I'm also throwing in now because of our our tantric influence Eric uh lot of strong orgasms those are the four that'll that'll do it you know well sometimes like uh you know you talk about the like this is the opposite of fun but it just hit me you know like the strong I'm sorry did you more on the strong organm okay you're good I was just to say the other thing is like if something really harsh happens the death of a person the loss of a relationship the collapse of a business so it's either gonna be the reason I bring it up is because you can go the pleasure route or you can go the other route yeah our argument is let's go the pleasure route go the pleasure route yeah yeah let's go the strong argasm route as opposed to like my [...] fell apart route yeah which is which is much harsher more suffering but you know um it's hard to change people and especially to move them towards a psychospiritual life so if a partnership can do that then that's great and if that partnership is for a short period like the kind of the Crux of this episode you know or or from a caric meeting wonderful I don't think it has to be a short period I don't know if I think that has to be short right maybe not I'm not thinking of it that way I don't think it has to be short you can make it short or not short based based on an opportune meaning we'll say it this way yeah yeah but I don't think those well maybe that's a point we'll we can we'll have our own opinions on but I don't think those things have to be short no no no they don't necessarily have to be yeah I think you know depends on how you want to structure your life sure yes but I do get the idea like if I go back and we're trotting out some of our greatest hits in this but you know I do think a lot about like the Carl Jung well first of all Carl Jung has that thing like if you don't get ahead of this life is going to catch you get ahead of it yeah get ahead of the yeah the flow of life don't wait for it to bowl you over and then you change jump out ahead yeah right so it's good advice but you know we had talked about this a little bit in India and a little bit Yung has something that kind of Echoes this where you can kind of talk about people kind of being in different head spaces yeah you know some people are struggling just to get by and for them success is you get to something stable yeah some people are really they've establish a stable life for themselves but there's dangers of it as young points out getting stagnant or stuck and then you have to like transform yourself and that's almost the indication that it's time for me to go forward yeah you know I I need to transcend more I need to get outside of the Norms I need to start going to something deeper right and then eventually you get to things where you're probably going to things that are very deeply psychospiritual so four kinds of folks you know but you know if someone's like kind of a a type two kind of person right if that's their heads space it's kind of hard to drag them along that's what they make insulin for yeah they try to regulate their blood sugar but you know it's probably dopamine Daniel we probably have to do dopy and serotonin [...] on them yes it's is kind of the way people are you know so then what do you do and one of the things I wanted to point out you know as we kind of get maybe the last 10 minutes of what we're doing here or something like it might be hard to drag someone along and it just may not work that way yeah so you know so if that's the case then maybe what happens is is your solo practice becomes the more important thing for you right and i' you know I've gone to a lot of these Retreats where it's like the person's just there they have a significant other at home we were on a retreat where that happened a lot too you know the significant other isn't there they're there they're there they're doing their solo thing right and you know that's their practice and it doesn't have to do with maybe their partner who maybe isn't in that head space they're not that kind of person but that might be a thing to try to do you know and as I thought about that I was going okay yeah you can you can do that you know I've seen I've seen that before for it seems a little difficult but maybe not you know maybe that's that's you know they're notos sexuals you know I just was thinking like it's just the reality of what human life is and again we're trying to make this real so we can do these things sure and for some people this might be how it is you know my partner doesn't it isn't their thing and you know this might be more my solo thing right yeah we're going to be doing exercises in you know ultimately we're talking about Karma mutra we'll be presenting meditations you're working on your own internal energies right trying to generate blisses within yourself that might be the way this will be for you right and that will be sort of more the solo aspect of your practice so and yeah go ahead yeah when um so just a you know Prelude because we're gonna be doing our Retreat March 5th through March 9th uh out here in the Midwest area just about an hour outside of Chicago we'll get that up uh pretty next next couple weeks we'll have all the information up and we'll do a little little video on it we'll we'll kind of describe what we're going to be doing but you know some of the practices that we'll be working with are some that I learned from you know my teacher Andre and I'll tell you some of the people who were there ER Eric you and I have never talked about this before some of the practitioners who were there who who did this practice had specifically said like I have sex with my partner because it's good for our relationship but I don't really necessarily need that in my life at this you and I talked about a little bit about that yeah and like it was you know some of the people there I think a couple of the ladies there you were talking about that that was sort of they're feeling yeah right yeah yeah so I mean I think what happens there is you can learn to generate kind of the Bliss within yourself yeah as your own practice and then that way you go forward and you know if another person isn't able to meet you there but you're still going to hang on to that that relationship is still core to who your life functions to who you are that's another way to do this um my thoughts around that I'll curious of your opinions as we kind of get to this I wanted to talk about this part too because we want to be real right yeah so I was just kind of well you know um you might have to change aspects of your relationship to sexuality and connection will probably change as you do these practices like the people you're talking about when the treats you were doing your you know your attitude to what sexuality is your attitude toward connection changes yeah it might not be always easy for a partner who knew you before then to adjust to that that's fair to say um you might have to be the more flexible person and adjust back to them you know yeah given that their approach to relationships and sexuality just isn't in that same space as where you are now you know so I think that's just something that you to be realistic and just think about that that's a reality right and almost what you're talking about with the people that you were discussing this with well I do this thing because it keeps me connected with this person and keeps them happy in the relationship right but you know my my inner world is going to someplace else this is the reality of my life you know and I think there can be situations like that and it still opens possibilities for you to do yeah your thing some of the psychospiritual growth that you want yeah even using the sexuality even with the connection that is you know the person isn't there in that space for you you know and that's just reality of things so I mean we can imagine now like lots of permutations I think in my mind we're clinicians right so I try to think okay what are the permutations of these cases how's this going to play out for different people in different ways and how you get the best out of these things right MH and then ways this might be what's realistic for some folks right but I think there has to be an understanding like well my relationship to sexuality connection what things mean maybe different now it's it's not the same as this other person maybe that relationship doesn't last or maybe it lasts and then you adjust to that yeah you kind of understand okay well part of my life is how I'm being with this person and other part is like more my own internal growth something that's more private than my own right kind of like the people you're were talking about on the retreat yeah and Cas I think it is realistic to wrap on the Esra paral thing this is like a deep question this is like the her book is called mating captivity right so she really talks about like how do people hold their things together in long-term ways in the exclusiveness world right where you know um it's not easy to hold these things together all the time right people burn out on each other or they grow apart in ways right yes but if you have the the motivation to like spiritually work on yourself let's say let's say we do this Retreat someone like comes to this Retreat you know we're not saying it we're doing it for sure well no we're doing it like but in the hypothetical of us doing this streat not hypothetical that we're gonna do it but if you happen to show up yes there we go okay you show up and you're like okay well this is a new thing for me I'm tapping into parts of my sexuality that are different maybe my maybe maybe this will be the thing that I'll share with my partner is a thing that deals with the mating captivity problem but maybe not you know but you can still kind of go on your own way and still keep your connection with this person and you know maybe do what you're talking about so I just want to be realistic about this you know and just say this is this is like a a deep set of problems and I can very easily imagine people trying to solve this in different ways yeah yeah I'm cool is that sounds good to you yeah yeah yeah okay so we did it we did so I guess next episode we'll talk about patriarchy okay yeah but I think you know practicality little g&t practicality here that's it man you know Capricorn in a building MH tenth house for me tenth house it is isn't right now something about um Pluto moving out of something into somewhere else I don't know today on the 19th oh yeah it's getting close yeah people are like it's moving into Aquarius right and you were asking me about that yeah yeah does that mean anything yeah okay cool good perfect got that taken care of well it takes like it takes a while for po to get from one sign to another okay and it's moving to Aquarius and Aquarius is kind of a very um it's an air sign so it has an intellectual quality but it has a uh it has a a radical and rebellious quality to it and what is Pluto rep Pluto moving what is Pluto bringing as it moves yeah I mean I haven't like like you know we brought it up and I kind of semi thought about it but then I didn't oh okay all right but Pluto has symbolisms that are kind of across I was talking with some students about this too you know and student Pluto has like its sort of different symbolisms for us in the tantric World it probably has the meaning of like working with some of the more intense sexual energies it has some of that connotation right kolini it's a fire and water kind of a vibe to it right and uh so it can get into some of those things the more intense experiences of sexuality some of the deeper more intense experiences of psychospiritual connection are kind of represented there too yeah and maybe this will be happening in more unconventional ways if it gets affected by Aquarius fingers crossed for our podcast you know yeah that would be a positive version of it but Pluto also has some I mean all the plants have potential negativities but it it has a little bit more negativity you know so it has obviously connotations that have to do with you know like death right you know um so it has potentials that can be a little bit more destructive so there's some you know maybe potential volatility in that right as we see how the world is kind of unfolding uh on a personal level it has associations with sort of like obsessive qualities especially jealousy possessiveness you know one of the myths of Pluto is he stole Deiter and like kept her in the Underworld right so it has some of the darker psychological aspects shadowy things things a nauy boy um he's a complicated character okay Hades right yeah um and then you know on the different part and this will be interesting to see how this plays out you I like some of these Chinese astrologers and they'll talk about Pluto associated with like our authoritarianism and big business so whether those things are going to be challenged or what's going to happen with that but obviously United States is showing weird stuff with this right weird yeah and we're on the one hand there's like a union of like we're gonna be radical we're gonna be whatever but it's joining with like big business the Elon musks and the Donald Trumps and the what the [...] is that yeah so that does have some connotation in that right yeah authoritarian big business power aspects ugly totalitarian authoritarian aspects of this they call out then joining in with these Aquarian things you know it's almost like a strange combination and kind of like a masquerade or something it does feel that way doesn't it feels false so but hopefully they'll be blowback against this but there's a weird meling of like pretend radical ISM and like big business what the [...] is that doesn't make any sense at all does it no no deluded it's yeah it's coopted right completely diluted so I wonder what that's gonna be know that that has weird Vibes to it to me and I was think about that we don't do a ton of astrology so there you go folks for those of you who stayed till the end you got an astrology bonus uh based on the astrological movements and it's today today is the day that its first day 19th right right so so very appropo of us Eric amazing outstanding there is like a vibe in the air though you feel something and it like I Pluto's a pretty strong play at my chart it doesn't feel totally negative to me but I mean there's weird connotations again this whole I'm going back again this whole Donald trumping on Mustang is really weird isn't it but let's not dwell on it we're not gonna dwell end of an episode yeah for sorry I went back to it again it's just so dist anyways yeah yeah it's all good um but so there you go so for those who made it to the end thank you so much you are in the uh top uh 5% of attention havers in the world in the universe even I could say because we're not sure who else uh we work with or is even alive to listen to this but if you're listening from another planet or Another Universe or a different time hello um and uh you know feel free to uh like comment subscribe hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com we got the gr popping at uh J jantra podcast uh if you know us personally feel free to send us a text message message uh or even a phone call or a FaceTime or a zoom or what else there Skype I'm not sure te Microsoft teams whatever yeah WhatsApp do all the things hit us up on all the damn things Tik toks I don't even use it but you know find me there you know and make me an account and then send me messages on it um anyways Eric always fun as as forever yes uh to our audience thank you so much for listening thanks for hitting us up thanks for uh sharing our work and just as a reminder do those things that I just asked you that I just thanked you for um and for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]