[music] Hey fellow G&Ters, those of us like our spirituality with a twist. So as you will see we have uh the pleasure of having a wonderful guest, massage therapist, body worker, fitness coach, actress, model, and just overall allaround wonderful being, renaissance lady, overall goddess, Fedra Shantel. Thanks for coming on, Fedra.

Hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, this is our second time conversing, so I'm looking forward to it. We had really, like we were talking about off mic, we had really nice deep conversation last time that

we walked away feeling uh rewarded by your presence.

Yeah, thank you.

And you're sharing and you're sharing. Uh so this is actually a conversation we want to have around the suggestion from Fedra which is just a great topic and certainly within our wheelhouse just considering identity from all kinds of directions but like kind of talking about Denny from like how we might feel about it personally and then there's the whole issue of identity. So it was your idea Pedro and we agreed I'd throw it to you first. So

okay

yeah let's be cool to hear what we have to say about it.

Thanks. So, um, uh, as I had said before we got on, uh, this was a little bit of a topic that someone brought up earlier in the month and I was really thinking about it because in all the all my different worlds there, like there's always something, you know, so whether it's job, um, race, uh, gender, lifestyle, um, and there's just so many different you know like areas where we like to we label ourselves whether it's because of safety because it's you know we have to like we started it when we were kids right when they're like circle the box black white you know not you whatever other other we were I was an other for most of my life uh so it just started making me think about how we identify and how committed and connected we are to these identifiers and it can be safe, dangerous, how it makes us feel comfortable. So, um I kind of went through a a moment uh of where I'm like, uh if I was to take all the things I identify, like that could be an identifier for me. And to me, they're very fluid and they can change all the time, which I think with many people, it can't because they have to be this way because it makes them feel safe.

[snorts]

So I went through if I can share um well if someone was like Fedra like how do you identify and I would say that I'm Fedra uh biracial black American queer cis female solopy demisexual submissive goddess. That's a lot and in all the different and that's just like me as a person. And then you added like what you said before being a massage therapist and um body worker and those other things too and it's like but that's not it you know those are just right there and then you can start thinking of all these other things and I think with all of us we not all of us but some of us we keep ourselves in these boxes of these one things and it can create harm of who we are because if we lose lose that one thing or we change our mind one day, you know. So, I think that's what I wanted this whole like conversation to be about was in these different realms. Um maybe just finding um I don't know just planting seeds and uh allowing people to kind of you know get a different perspective on identifying.

Yeah. Why don't you give us the Fedra? Why don't you give us the genesis? That's that because I think that'll be helpful for people to understand where where where your inspiration came from.

Can you say more on what you mean by genesis?

Like like where what the conversation that you had with one of your people about this specifically? I think that would be a nice background.

So yes. Okay. So there was um a friend of mine who has been um in a certain uh occupation for a very long time and they truly like this is what they their passion was what they were meant to do and like loved it like loved it. I'd see their posts about it and amazing amazing and I started seeing um now me without any context I didn't know. So, I just started seeing a lot of posts that were coping mechanism posts, you know, just like some some things that were just positive telling themselves things or there was all these posts and then I saw them at um where where know where I work this one day and they uh talked about how they lost their job. they got let go from this job that they've just been so connected to and so for so long and they're just like is there and we were talking about this particular um the podcast because of the last one that Daniel when you and I were talking

and they're just like well hey is there any on just like identifying and and how you get through that and

um uh and just the the change and what we can do. And I was kind of like, well, maybe. And I have to go back, but I'm like, here's the podcast. And then that's when I like texted Daniel and I said, is has this ever been I said, I I I believe you guys have talked about identity in certain different ways, especially like, you know, I mean, religion and I mean, that's part of what this whole podcast is about. Uh however, this particular way of dealing with things and being able to cope and um have a different mindset. And so I I kind of was just thinking I'm like, okay, how could if it hasn't been done, how can we talk about this in a way that's broad enough and specific enough and to get into all the the different um aspects of it?

Yeah, I know that the the fragileness that you're talking about. So, I like to do this this kind of thing, too, where I ask other people, hey, we're going to do this conversation on this pod. What's what do you think about that? And it was interesting with one person I know because it's really obvious that they identify with the role of like mother, but now the kids are kind of getting older

and it's causing some problems and you could see it's like a little bit painful. like uh I think what she said was it's so obvious that these kids have been the most important things in my life but I can't say it's reciprocal back from them and I was like ah that's that's the thing right being a mom or a parent or something

and it was it was funny because when I said well what do you think about this identity thing and she didn't say mom first she said some other things and that was interesting and then when we doubled back it was kind of like isn't it kind of mom and she went Yeah, it probably is. But it was eye opening because it wasn't her gut reaction, which I find interesting and maybe we'll talk more about that later.

But um it was also something where it was like it got her wheels kind of turning to other parts of her identity that she could

see herself in the bigger picture. So in that sense, I think it was helpful to

Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. I guess you can put that in the the context of being a wife or a husband or a partner.

Yeah. And then for so many years and then you know because divorce separation happens and then you're not.

Yeah.

And you're like okay well I don't have anyone to take care of anymore.

Yeah. It's so jarring right? So jarring. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow.

And she was kind of also saying well she sort of had the sense you know like you know when you're doing that role you're on a timer

it's ticking away. And you know, we've all been, you know, we've been all

I've been a kid, you know, to to parents and you're like, "Okay, now I'm flitting away."

Yeah.

Yeah. And you don't think about it from that side, you know, and obviously from the parental side, it's so deep. So, yeah, it was a it was one of those great conversation starters like what you're talking about. So, you know, hopefully an episode like this gets things rolling for people.

Python people, too.

Yeah.

But,

yeah. So what hit me for me and I know what you two think about this but what I found kind of interesting was there was on the one hand kind of like the gut reaction if someone asks you like what do you say you know and it was like there was one part of it that was very like immediate to me and I'll share my things too and maybe you know Daniel wants to do it I'll go with what I thought it was but I had some gut reactions and I thought that was really interesting it's sort of like a little I have like a psych degree in my background so I was like it's a psychological test what do you say first you know it's like almost like a word association. What's the first thing that pops up?

And so things popped up [laughter]

and I'd read your list, too. So maybe I was a little primed from the list.

Things pop.

And then I went, well, wait a minute. The other part I found about it really interesting was, okay, let me take a second back now and like self-reflect a little bit on it.

And that's almost like a different thing

where you take a step back and you go, okay, those are my gut reactions. I still think they're true, but if I take a step back, okay, what do I think when I try to clarify this more? Was it like that at all for you just out of curiosity? Were certain things that were gut reactions and other things that you kind of went, "Oh, wait a minute. Was I think about it more or did it all flow out in like one continuous thing for you?" I think it well I mean even what I said tonight was different because I what I originally was going to tell Daniel is like in this moment this is what this thing is because tomorrow it might be something different and it was so like because people um you know the question of like what are you and I am just like I look at them knowing exactly what they mean like what is like your um uh your uh and now we can't I can't even think of the word your um uh

identity

like your background like what are your demographic information or something yeah like what's like what are your parents and my parents are both human and okay but where's their like ancestors from and I'm like oh that's a great question so um and because like it's so funny because in the like world of acting and modeling, I'm culturally ambiguous.

So, it's like, what color is my hair this week? Do I have braids? Do I have this? Am I blonde? Am I purple? Whatever. So, I can like they kind of just like, well, we can just put you in there and you're going to represent everybody, which is kind of cool. And I kind of love that.

There's a power kind of. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, like I've always considered myself biracial and there's many, I think, mixed biracial individuals that will say like I'm black and they identify as black. And so, for me, like that for whatever reason, and maybe it's just cuz I'm asked that a lot, I'm always like biracial. And then the black American part was something new cuz it's something that I've been um very I'm like does it even matter? Like my mom gets very upset about when we say we're black. She's like no but you're not. You're mixed.

And it's like yeah except that there's a one direct rule according to your ancestors and my ancestors. Like that's been a rule that's been made.

So, uh, so we can go into like all that and I'm not. And according to my ancestry.com, I'm actually more European and German and Norwegian than I am black. So, and then I started looking that up. I'm like, well, does that like mean anything? And then they started talking about culture and who you grew up with when I grew up mostly with my mom's side of the family. I'm like, so I'm biracial white really? And so like there's that hole in my head. Yeah. And then like my where my sister and brother like everyone thought my sister was Mexican. Everybody thought my brother was Puerto Rican.

There was like all these things that were just like dealing with as far as labeling and um No. And then I think from there it just started to flow because I feel like I went through that being like that's those things biracial I will never change. Like that's for sure what it's going to be. Um black American. I am a biracial black American woman. Those things will always be what they are. Um, cis female, cis, I've always um, like that's not going to change. Queer and cis female, those are things that are always going to be who I am, who I've always been. how now that I'm honest with myself like like some of these things are just going to be and you move more into like the solo poly the demisexual the submissive the goddess like well I'm always going to be a goddess clearly [laughter] those can change they're like very changing you know like one day I'm like you know what I don't want to be this anymore and so I think that's how I was able to kind move into my list.

They're kind of fun to take them apart individually, but there is something like you're saying and I know you think about this Daniel too, but if you've gone through changes and like we talked about in the previous episode, you've gone through changes like

real changes, then there can be a little bit more

since that episode.

Yeah. [laughter] But there could be more like flexibility, right? Like we were talking about earlier, I think if you never really gone through those

transformations or something, right? you know, then it you do you can get more stuck. But if you go along a little bit more like I've changed before, I can change again,

you know, it feels

I'm like the epitome of a phoenix, you know, like I just am like burn and then I rise and I'm like, who the hell am I today? I don't know, but it's always something more glorious than I thought I could even be. So it's and it's just been doing that for the last 44 years of my life and I'm happy about it. Okay, just out of curiosity, one of the things you said, and I don't know what audience listeners will think about this, but when you use the word queer, that means like what do you think that word fully entails, you know,

because it's such a broad one and it can mean different things for different people. I think it's kind of interesting question, you know,

it does. And I've um and I've used it with someone that was older and they looked at me and they were very upset and I knew it. I like and they they didn't say anything but the like look of fear in in their face I was like oh okay because I think not I think I clearly know queer the word queer used many many years ago was like it was a derogatory it was like calling me a mulatto you know it's like

the word mulatto is very like come on a mule and uh you know it's mixed people like whatever. However, I still have heard like not so much now, but I still hear a lot of Italian people call mixed people mulatto and they think it's okay or like or or using oriental like not cool but there's a lot of people that don't understand that that's not cool. So queer uh has been a a a word that has been taken back by a community by you know my community and many of our communities that like it's just um it's not a box. Um I said I was pansexual for a long time and which I still feel that I am. I just feel that the word queer is all-encompassing and it's weird and I'm so [...] weird and I the weird the the word queer sounds weird and it sounds inquisitive and it sounds curious and it sounds like we're just we're all still figuring it out and we haven't yet. So please don't tell me what I am

because I'm just me right now and yeah. So

those nice like hu words too like you were bringing up like inquisitive questioning.

Yes.

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. It has that feeling to it. Yeah. I like it too, you know, and it's big, right? It's a big word.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, I've and I've just started kind of like in the past year um identifying more queer with queer um as a word and or as a label and I just I love it. It feels good like sematically the word to me resonates.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, Daniel, I know you want to do lists. You got things on your mind you want to share? You want to go first?

Go ahead. Second. I get to go. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. All I can say is there's like gut reaction things [clears throat]

and for me and maybe it's cuz like I had my like little psychic gears turning. I was like, "Oh, this is interesting." Because I had the gut reaction. So the first thing that came up for me was obviously related to our little pod here in the sense like the spiritual things popped for me first. And that was like my very very like first reaction. So I was sort of like okay like what's the thing that flooded through my mind first? And it was sort of this Buddhist tantric thing. I was like, okay, that seems to be like core for me. And that's the thing that like without even having to like take a nancond pop, that's what happened for me. And I was like, okay. And then with that, I realized that there's a sort of a a range of things in that general wheelhouse that had been very deep for me. And I saw, well, these are all kind of part of a unity in my mind, you know? So, it was sort of like, okay, I do this Buddhist tantra, that's the heart, I guess, right? And it was very spontaneous. And then I had gotten initially into doing things in Zen, but I thought, well, that's still fits together for me. That's really similar, right? I don't though I I can talk about later on. I think when I when I stopped doing Zen, that was painful, you know, because I felt like that identity thing, you know, I had really kind of tied into that and at some point I thought, well, I guess I'll do it now. Well, I guess I thought I'll be doing this for the rest of my life with this teacher in this way. And eventually I sort of I wouldn't even say it's hard to say who changed probably I changed you know and I thought well this isn't right for anymore for me anymore and I had to leave right and uh I went through maybe something similar to what you were describing with a friend acquaintance co-orker you know whoever the person you were talking about at the beginning where I was like man this hurts you I remember for the first time not going to my usual zen retreat you know and I was like it feels bad you know And I can I think I I got through it by I was like writing some music and I was doing some things that were kind of expressive, you know,

but it felt a little bit like a betrayal on some level that I had started to commit to this thing and now I'm not. So that felt bad and and uh you know I had relationships with people at the place where I was training. Some were good. Some of them had soured a little bit but my with the teacher I was studying with it was very positive. But anyway, so I went through that kind of thing, you know, that low crisis.

But those are the ones that kind of hit first. And then I I have a sort of this love of Buddhist tantra and tantra overall and Zen and Dowist things and Sufi things, all these things that kind of have been like deep passions of mine. You know, I asked my daughter about it. She's 23

and she was like, "Oh yeah, that's all right." You know, [laughter] like, "Yeah, that's probably right." and we were talking through it and she said,

you know, our uh you know, she's uh at that age too where well, she was like when she was younger, two kids are like this anyways, but she has a sense of who she thinks I am, right?

Right.

And she was like uh we joke with one another because you know, she's a very fiery kind of wild person and I always I'm like, Alina Baker, you are ridiculous. Which is the old line that you see for like

for like Bears player Devin Hester. Alina Baker, you are ridiculous. It's a joke. And then she's like, you're ridiculous, too. And I'm like, it's true. And then she said, it's because, you know, you have all these passions that you kind of follow so intensely. And she's like, you know, that's part of your nature. So, anyways, that was sort of like home base for me. Uh, I guess I'll throw it to you, Daniel, but that was the stuff that came first, those kind of spiritual things where just like that popped out like immediate. I How about for you, Daniel?

Um, yeah. I don't know. I don't I I this it's it's very difficult because I feel like you are who you tell yourself you are, right? And so the longer you the more that you do something, the more that you continue to say it, the more that that becomes who you are.

And simultaneously, who you surround yourself with also

is who you are. So

you can I mean, you know, I mean, we all have different people. We, you know, but there's uh a white person who grows up with lots of black people. They're white technically, but they're not really, you know,

and that's just one, right? You know, any kind of race, you can you can do that. So, you know, if who if you're people who are like you, you feel like you're kin with them, then you're a part of those people and that can change with time. So I always feel like, you know, Fedra talked about this being, you know, this shifting as time goes on, you [clears throat] know, how how we identify ourselves. So that it's hard to kind of like stick on a it's hard to stick on something. The way that I maybe can describe it is that like in certain areas of life, if you're fixed on something, you become heavy and you sink. And if you try to always move around, you'll get exhausted and eventually you'll, you know, float away or you'll you'll die. you you know you'll sink again. So you got to stay in between this area of being fixed and staying in the area of kind of being in flow so that you're neither one nor the other. But the problem with that is that you don't have something to change. And I think change is in inherently part of existence. And so by by having a label then you can break out of it and have a new one and then change that and constantly be doing this thing. So I think it's a worthwhile exercise. Um I have many clients who you know some of whom you know do well for themselves some of whom are older older gentlemen you know who are near retirement age and some maybe not but just you know have the ability to think about retirement which is a luxury and I have these conversations this phase or maybe you do as well with some of your PT clients. They get to the age usually in their early 60s, mid-60s, they start thinking about the sort of next phase of their life where they're not going to be working as much and they have a very difficult time. If they have never really cultivated a hobby or cultivated something outside of work, their work is their identity. And even if you enjoy it, you know, even if you enjoy it, it's something where if you don't have something else that is growing at the same time that this thing is already so strong that once this strong thing falls away, you don't really have an identity anymore. And therefore, you resist retiring, you resist letting go, you resist moving on because that is who you are. And now the question is okay, well then who am I if I am not that? So in the benefit of identifying who it is that you are you can have this as something to to leave from but then it's also in comparison to say okay I am those things yes but who am I if I am not those things so I'm sort of like giving you my own internal argument uh with with this as as a whole. [clears throat] I think with that said, I don't know. I mean, I guess I'm a uh I'm a healer or at least I try to be. Um depending on who you ask, they might give descriptions of me differently, right? As as everybody would for us, right? Um for better or worse, you know, I have to say, Daniel, I I kind of had a sense that that would be the lead, though. I don't know. Something like that. I was like, what will Daniel say? And I was like, "That has to be a lead." You know, like

everything he just said for sure. I was like, "Check. Got it."

Yeah. You got it all. You got it all down. Yeah.

I was literally like walking around this afternoon going, "What's Dan gonna say?" And I could remember the moment I was, "It's going to be healer. It's going to have to be there."

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, it resonates with other people.

Uh, healer seeker, you know, uh, unifier harmonizer as best as I can. Um, you know, I'm a cis straight male by just being born, you know.

Uh,

I definitely uh identify as somebody who cares a lot. I know there's not a label for that, but I'm a passionate person. And so

that means I like to play a little bit with fire, as you know, Fedra has a red top on with a red background for those who are just doing the audio right now, you know. um very Valentine's themed, but you know, passionate people get themselves into trouble because they like to be animated and follow, you know, passions and that often can lead to really great moments and disastrous moments and broken hearts and you know, for ourselves and other people. And so

I didn't want to kill your flow, but just as a thing like they do say the tantras are for passionate people. That was for me, you know, I didn't want to jump on it, but

yeah, it's life, [laughter] you know. So, anyways, I'm sorry about that, but

yeah. No, no, it's all good. Yeah. So, you know, uh, tantric practitioner, you know, a dowist and Zen enthusiast much like Eric is and, you know, really in constant pursuit of unlocking whatever is here that I have yet to do because I think it's an aspect of life that is really important for me is to understand that the deeper layers of things, you know, like I was uh meditating this morning and I knew we were going to be having this conversation and So there's these uh you know layers of observation or or I guess we call them like layers to practice. I don't know what the the term for it is in Eric, but like when you do uh practice, right? There's external, internal, and secret. I don't know what those layers are called. What the the the overarching layers of those

Yeah. They're kind of layers of reality almost, right? So

Sure. You could do layers of reality.

They're kind of like mirroring layers of reality, [clears throat] you know, more obvious things, the things that are a little bit more inside and then, you know. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so much like anything, so you see a picture of something and that's a symbol, but it means something more deep. And then when you get the deeper thing that has some maybe even effect on your life and this is a sort of secret imprint that it has on you. And so I was thinking about these kinds of things and that these identifiers are for our outward perception, right? These are the external, but they come from uh an internal place. So as as Fedra talks about what she identifies with she's giving words to a feeling.

Yeah.

And those feelings that's the internal place and the the secret place probably would be the place that they come from before they're even a feeling that we carry around. These are karmic tendencies, genetic tendencies, astrological tendencies, right? Um that they they sort of move into reality in in this way. And so I'm I'm going to do something that I I don't always do, but I'm going to do a 90° turn if if you don't mind. Uh here real quick. And so as I'm doing my meditation this morning and thinking about that this today, I had sort of I had this in my mind as to like, okay, well, who who am I? Who are we? And so there's this sort of elaborate meditation that I do on a regular basis that we'll do on our retreat coming up April 15th to April 19th. I will have on the link uh that I will attach to this video which will be fantastic in person or online as anybody could do and the beginning stages of what this is is a tantric practice called the generation stage practice. It's a meditation on moving through stages of life and or stages of death coming back and forth either way. And as part of this, you will sort of emerge at some point as we could say the enlightened version of yourself or the super the super fedra or the super Eric or you know whatever this like you know really shiny being that's of royal descent and you know you're at the you're at the peak of your evolution. I guess

one could even use the word goddess.

There you go. Yes. Thank you Eric. That's a [laughter] good way. Right. And so you take this. So I was sitting at this moment and saying, "Okay, and I don't want to give too much away, Eric. So you could totally, you know, tell me not to say any more at any point, you know, cuz some of this is they like to keep secret." But

yeah, there's that part. Yes.

But you you can come out as a goddess and you can come out as your own self as a goddess or you can come out as a different goddess. You know, some something that they have pictures of in many different traditions. You can come out as Jesus. You can come out as uh Quan Yin. You can come out as Ganesh.

Maybe you could say archetype that might resonate with some people.

Sure. Right. An archetype.

Archetype of enlightenment, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So that's not resonates with you, right?

Yeah. Of compassion, of wisdom, of love, of something, you know, all these kinds of things, right? Aspects of enlightenment. And so instead of taking the the thing that I normally do, you know, or one of several things, I said, what if I was to make one up right now? Who would I be? And so this is a very long- winded answer and I will now give you and whoever is listening to this.

This feels like this needs a drum roll or something.

Yes. Yes. And so so before I do this though, I I this is a I had been planning this all day long. And so I I'm going to I'm going to ask that if you guys want to do this, you're welcome to. Audience, if you want to do this, you're welcome to. People on Instagram or Facebook or wherever you're going to watch this, take some time and think about this. And you know with today the technology that we have today you can make this image using an AI image generator right and better than it ever has been before. So if you had this in your mind and you were never an artist you would never be able to make this. You'd have to keep this in your mind as to you know something that you imagine. But now something you can imagine you can actually create and kind of bring it into reality right take the internal to the external if we use uh the reference from earlier. So that's my ask if if you guys want to do something like that and I'll tell you mine and then you could follow along with you know however this works for you. So I said okay who if I was to be a picture of a of a deity of a of a god if you will or a goddess if you're a female how would I look?

How would I be how would I be how would I appear? Okay. Um and so okay so here's here's how here's how I I dreamed about it be. So I'm going to have all of my accompaniments. All right. So in one hand

say again

your accuchant.

My accuchant. That's right. So on one hand

and regalia. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. So uh in in one hand a trident.

Oh.

Okay. With probably some skulls on it because you have to have skulls if you're going to do this, right?

Uh and the other hand would be a pouch full of a p like a powder or a nectar. So, those are my I'm only two-handed. And some of these images you could have as many hands as you want, but I can only vision myself with two hands. So, that's that's I only have one face, two legs, and two hands. That's all that I got. Some people have more. I'm limited in my ability to imagine myself more different, right? Um, wrapped around my body would be a snake. I'd be close to naked, but I would have probably some basic kind of uh thing. Um, and then around my neck I would wear, so when this is just an interesting thing and and sorry I'm dominating this piece, but this is a very, you know, kind of interesting.

This is great. This is great.

So, I had the image of the a Chinese coin. Okay. It's it's a it's a circle, but in the middle it's cut out with a square. And this is done for many reasons, but we like to we like the the the sort of tantric way. And it's representing like heaven and earth. Heaven being round, earth being square. Okay. So that's how they represent this the sort of like unity if you want or yin and

yeah it's like yin and yang in in their currency. All right. So I don't know that just came to my mind and then what I what I had a very quick vision of was the Cabba which is the the the you know the the place of like mus the Muslim pilgrimage, right? They're supposed to go every year to Mecca, right? and they walk around counterclockwise around the cabba. But if you look at that from a a far enough view, it's a square with a circle around the outside.

Yeah, that's what I said.

Nice.

I would wear that around my neck,

but it would be live. And so this would be my external that this is like my this is the external vision of the external vision of myself that has come from an internal place and all these things have meaning

right all these things and I would also be covered in tattoos and they would all have meaning right you know what I'm saying because then you see because then you see a picture of me and you go oh I know what he represents right I know what this is representing but the part that I found that was most interesting is after I did this experiment I said but what's going on on the inside. And then I said, "The same thing that's going on inside of every single being, person, deity, or otherwise, it's the same." And that I found to be probably the most sort of mind-blowing piece about all these things other than the really cool image I have of myself.

Well, I guess that inner part like might be like a Buddha nature idea, right? We all have like our inner spirit, right?

Our transcendent aspects of who we are. This is like one of the most uh awesome like kind of these conversations [laughter] because Daniel and I talk like this all the time off mic.

I'm always thinking, okay, and we this is like Daniel and I playing with one another.

I love it.

So Daniel say like I'm holding a trident. I'm like, oh yeah, that happens with some of the the divinities to hold the trident. means that you can have access to the wisdom of all the three transcendent worlds or something.

There's a symbolic meaning and then like be like, "Well, there's a there's a a nectar bowl." And he be like, "Yeah, that means you have bliss and wisdom contained in the nectar." We just talked this [...]

So Daniel, of course, you know, he has his own meaning, but I'm always like thinking, "Oh, that does have its own thing." Even like what gets wrapped around the waist a lot of times is like a tiger skin. Mhm.

And that's exactly I was thinking tiger or bare skin for

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And like when they do the symbology of this, it has this idea like you learned how to control your aggression, right? You can use it for good purpose, right? You have access to it, but

you know, you're not you you can handle it for the best means or something. And it's wrapped around your waist. So probably there's

sexuality aspect too. You know, you've understood that part of yourself, right? All that cool stuff. So I always Daniel and I have these conversations like interesting. interesting,

you know,

and I love how AA just puts it like wraps it up in a bow, gives it to you in 10 seconds or maybe 30 to 60 seconds depending how busy they are at the moment. But I think that like having all that and then just like I don't know, it's kind of funny, but like that was really cool hearing about all those elements and I could see every single like everything that you said. I was like, "Yep, yep, yep." It was a very interesting visual. I guess it's a theme of the episode like a snake sheds its skin. It's a symbol of transformation which we've been talking about the whole time, right?

Yeah.

Shed your take on a new one.

100%. Like that's been and you know we

the whole 2025 was like that. And seriously, I feel like I've definitely just have done a lot of the the finality and the the finality shutting of different parts in my life. So, a lot of things that I would identify like those things have changed, too, cuz now we're getting into like a whole different energy of another year and another like animal and all the different things. So that shedding of skin is just beautiful and amazing especially so when Daniel when you said you had a snake around you I was like oh my god yeah that's like I'm a snake like I get it and you know it's this big warm hug but also like at some points it's like got to get off me for a second. That's beautiful.

Thanks. Um uh so let me let me ask you guys because we we started this conversation with talking about identity and and now we've sort of done that for each of us and PE you know people can listen to this and decide for themselves who they are. The other half of the the question that you sort of brought up before Fedra was who are you when that identity is taken from you or you lose it or whatever. So if you guys don't mind with the last, you know, little the last third or quarter that we have here um to go into that because I think that that is valuable especially you know we could be meta for a moment right and talk about the implementation of AI and the shifting dynamics in the workforce for people all over the reduc the reduction of funding for you know public and state services. Yeah. I mean, we're and we're all going to roll our eyes at all this [...] but but you know,

if it ever gets fixed, I don't know. I you know, things generally move towards poop uh as time goes on.

Um you know, people have to a deal with this from a financial level, but then you also have to deal with this on a very personal level. I mean, this has been in in Eric's household on and off for the last, you know, eight or nine months or so. So, I wanted to have this conversation um for people who are inevitably going to deal with this, which we will at some point too for other reasons. But, you know, I thought it's worth I thought it's worth talking about with you guys. I'm interested in what you what you think.

You want that one first, Fedra, or

Sure. Um because it's a it's not a very like meta answer. [laughter] I think I'm here for the simple answers, which I'm totally fine with. Uh, I think about growing up and knowing very clearly from a young age that I wanted to help. I wanted to heal. I thought at first I was going to go into like more of a um like sports psychology and psychology and so like that kind of stuff. And then um then I got into personal training and stuff as I got later in high school and realized that it's very similar because you're helping people with their bodies going through a lot of stuff self their their self-esteem all this stuff. So, um, when I got into massage therapy and body work and that kind of stuff, um, I think this whole like transition and I think about this more, it's like, well, if and when I can't do this because of physical or like if anything happens and I don't, um, I've decided I'm working at apt because I absolutely love that store and I can still help people and like do things, but it'll be a total transition. And I've realized that like as long as I can I have many gifts and I am so grateful to continue to use them. And I don't know how I'll feel. I don't know the amount of depression or upset how upset I'll be or how easy it'll be for me to transition. But I know I'm so capable. And that's something that I learned as a young kid is I'm so capable in so many different ways because I have not put myself in one thing. So for me, I know I'll be fine. Um, apparently I'm becoming a really good DIYer and I can like fix toilets and patch walls. So I may just like start my own channel on Instagram and like do, you know, like I'm quite capable. And so for me, I know that I'll be okay. Um, however, with that, there's probably going to be a lot of feelings if there's something that's going to take me away from doing what I absolutely love to do at the core. And, you know, so, um, yeah, I just I think that I can't speak for people these days that are losing things at this. They've gone and spent thousands and thousands of dollars in college and universities, and this is what they're doing, and now it's not available to the Jew. I have no idea how that feels. I can't even imagine.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do know people who are kind of going through that in different ways, you know, who built up entire careers for themselves and now like just because of the arbitrary actions of people who probably don't deserve the power that they have based on the intelligence that they have, you know, can just wipe stuff out just because, right? So, yeah, a lot of empathy for that for sure.

Yeah. I might go like a different direction. And I'm a like 90° we're going some ways in this stuff, but like I'm going like well I guess I I wanted to answer in the question at least in part Daniel and maybe before we get to like what's happening at the world at large maybe just from a personal level was uh as I was thinking about these questions certain things popped out kind of fast right but what felt good to me about it was there as I really thought about it I realized there was a certain like continuity to the different things that appeared So for me, like Vedra had mentioned a lot of stuff about [clears throat] how she feels about relationships and love and sexuality and these things were part of her list and I looked at that and for me the thing that popped out second I thought these spiritual things popped out first and the second thing that popped out is my favorite phrasiology of this coming from the great Esther Pel which is I'm a little bit more of a uniqueness person than an exclusiveness person. I tend to think of myself as like I value the connections to individual people. They mean a lot to me, you know, regardless of the form of the relationship. I value karmic connection. I think that's why I love like Sufism too. I love what Roomie did with that, you know, that the power of the uniqueness of connecting to some person who's just special to you and you make that work no matter what that frame is. That's how I think, right? So, I like to call that uniqueness. I think it's a great phrase. Some people more exclusivist, right? They're more like they want things to function in certain rules and forms and roles, husbands and wives and this and yeah, they want it to be much more the lines drawn much more a certain way than I do. But I I like the idea

not even of the blurriness of the lines, which I guess I like too, but like the idea of like no, I think there are people who are just special to you,

you know, and however you make that work, you make that work. But the weird thing for me when I pulled it together was that's actually part of how that's part of my spirituality too. It's part of how I see the world, right? You know, whether it's through a tantric filter or a a roomy Sufi filter or whatever, that's my that's not unconnected. And I began to think, okay, this is a great question in that different things might pop up for you or for any of us. Different things you might even get with self-reflection, but you realize like, oh no, there's a continuity in like these things that have fit together for me, you know, kind of what you said in the very very beginning, Daniel, you sort of build your identity at least partly for yourself, right? And I was realizing, yeah, something is constructed here, you know, that kind of fits together. As a point of like slight embarrassment, I didn't think parent for like one second initially.

Oh,

you did talk about your daughter earlier, so it's there.

I love my kids. I love them. They're awesome. But the weird part I realized like it didn't come first. Ooh. And actually like even my work didn't occur to me for like a second. [laughter] I had to double back.

But I thought, okay, that's interesting. But I thought, you know, the reason why I think of the kids the way they do is that they're just unique beings to me, too.

And the fact that they happen to be, you know, a son and a daughter. It's just that's who we are in this life, but maybe some other lifetime. You know, I've been the son and or the daughter and they've been the parent. But, you know, I felt that bond. I was like, "Oh, this fits." So I don't know what that means in terms of losing things. You know, we can have a lot of empathy for that. But I started to think, yeah, there's a certain continuity to maybe how you can make you see things fitting together for yourself and then you know, you realize like the parts fit and then you know there's less you feel less fragile maybe.

Yeah.

In terms of losing things because there's more pieces that fit together into who you are and any one little piece you realize is like just part of a bigger hole somehow that fits together in some way. At least that's how I thought about it. [snorts] Yeah.

Yeah. I think there's um I have two two people in my mind. One person is, you know, and this is how it is. I'm sure it's this way for young women, but I think of young men right now in particular because I think this is a particularly hard time for young men just in general, men in general, but young men in particular. Um it's just difficult, you know, work is difficult like all the things are difficult. and about all the young men who don't have an identity. So here we are talking about what we are. I don't know that they can have that. And so there's there's this strong drive to try to find something to clarify what that is for them. So that's so one one half is is striving to find this identity. The other person who I have in my mind is somebody who is losing their losing their work, losing their job as their identity on the other half, whether that be through retirement or through like we talked about, you know, just a couple minutes ago through forces not of their own or you think of like, you know, not so much anymore, but you know, for a long time all those coal miners, right? Like they did for generations. this is not like somebody that you know granted it's low life expectancy but that's what they knew that's what they did that's who they are and so there was some good discussions about this you know a couple years ago people were looking at like why people were in certain voting blocks and whatnot and they said that uh somebody described this as mobile people who have mobile skills skills that you can do in different areas are more uh able to adapt when economic impacts local they move, they change their things. But now I I I don't know. I think it's still even that still holds true. But, you know, this is a far more connected world than it even was 10 years ago, you know, so you're you could still be found in somewhere else. And so, I don't know. I just I I want to do one one more around here and I and I'll certainly do my thing, but for like either one of those sides, and you guys are people, this doesn't have to be any kind of like researched kind of thing. We're just sort of, you know, spitballing here because I feel like people who listen to this do listen.

They they they take the whole thing in. And, you know, I always talk about this, so I I don't like beating a dead horse, but [...] that horse. I'm going to beat it again. Um, we spend there's there's a a large battle for people's attention. And when they people tune into this, I like to bring up things of of value, you know, that I think that I'm that I'm curious about that I would like to, you know, investigate a little bit. And so, you know, we're talking about identity, but but who are we when we lose it, you know, and I know Eric, you think that it's it's a mosaic of of things that are the identity, but I don't know the the the uniqueness person, I think, is more of a rarity, you know, maybe it's a third or something like this. Even you think how many people are involved in polyamorous situations, you know. Um now we can debate that a little bit more based on how many people cheat and things like this which is probably you know 70 80% in life like whatever and that's

70 80 or different different podcast episodes after that on that subject right there so

yeah aspects of all of this right yeah that's here's the podcast yeah

yeah so but I mean in terms of like a a thing just based around identity here just because I find it to be such like a fascinating topic about you putting yourself in something so that you can leave it, but then if you don't have it, you want to you want to gravitate towards it, but then you can feel like you're confined at the same time. But then when it's not there, where do where do we go? How do we handle that? How do we handle the drift, you know, before we find the next thing? Because I don't know that it's a skill that we have um welldeveloped. Well, I guess I'll try to I don't know if you want to go first, Fasure. You're still thinking about it.

Yeah, I'm still thinking.

Yeah. You know, I like I'm gonna like give gut reactions too to these.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So, for me, as we've been talking about this, you know, this this kind of conversation go in like multiple different directions, but we ended up in this place. If I look honestly at myself, if I lost the things that I do in terms of like say my professional life, it means a lot to me, you know,

and if I look at it to know that I'm helping other people in the way that I'm able to do that while I still enjoy myself means a lot, you know. So, if I were to lose that, that would feel really bad. I can't lie to myself about that, you know? I'd be completely bullshitting myself

if I didn't admit that, right? Like that's very true. On the other hand of this I suppose and this is like the jin and tantra piece for me right would be like if you can find like those maybe like more core spiritual philosophical existential things that can sometimes be like your boy that carries you through the rocky waves or something you know that's bad poetry but the short the the waves are crashy and you're like okay I have this thing, you know, that still can help me out even in like the most difficult of times, right? And I think maybe that's like another part of a solution or something. Of course, that's a pitch of this podcast. See if you can find your spiritual meaning, your spiritual path, what speaks to you

personally, existentially, philosophically, and then sometimes that's the thing that will carry through. M

we were doing this episode recently with one of our guests and he's a big fan of like Victor Frankl like who's a psychologist who very famously like survived the concentration camps and when he talks about how did he do it and you know part of how he did it was he just kept this core meaning you know even under such dire conditions you know so you it's hard to get your mind around that like a lot of things we've been talking about but like a little bit I can understand it you know because I've been through, you know, loss of loved ones, deaths, personal illnesses that were pretty intense, you know, where there's a lot of physical pain and difficulty. But somehow I think, you know, maybe one of the themes of our podcast overall is if you can find that core thing. I mean, bucket, we started this thing during a pandemic,

you know, that's when we started, people were really feeling rattled. And part of it was like can you find that core sense of like okay this is mine and [clears throat] no one can take that away from me regardless of whatever happens in the circumstances. There might be something in that. It's

a hard thing to think about but you know there is some truth in that you know that that's the thing that sometimes can hold you even when things go shitty. Right.

We've been doing this podcast and things have been varying degrees of shitty the entire time since we started this thing. So, it's not like, you know, nothing's new as far as that goes, but maybe this is a, you know, maybe a continual truth. I mean, it's a gut level reaction to what you're talking about for what it's worth. Yeah.

I'm so glad you went first. Uh, because we like I was trying like I had some feelings about it, but I want to kind of piggyback off of what you said because um we when we think about like simply like values, right? And so when we we talk about everything we value and what our value system is and I just something that came that that resonated and popped up was like finding you know those things. Um and I'm like okay I I think personally for me I live my life with freedom and pleasure. Those are like two very high on my value systems. Freedom and pleasure. Now, if my freedom got taken away, whether it be because like, you know, I get in an accident and so my freedom of like not being able to like walk or like something anything where something physically on me takes away some kind of freedom, you know, how would I find my pleasure and like or you know like there's taking what we value and how we value what our values are in life and being able to transmute them into just what we are seeing today and in moment and then have to make them something different because we don't have the ability to make what we thought yesterday was our freedom and our pleasure and this and that and so um or whatever your top values are, you know, however you live your life. I think that recognizing kind of going back to what we were saying before that there's this this there can be this fluidity about it. There can be change. There can be like, you know, we live in an area where there's seasons, you know, that it's not always going to be like sunny. So, we we learn our bodies, our blood thickens when it gets colder, our blood thins when it gets warmer. And so, knowing that we can handle life in that way because our bodies will do it. So maybe in those instances where we are faced with change and having to have a label change or an identity change um we have to use different like parts of our brain to understand and to deal with it and um which could be hard for some people but I think it's a good way to start like okay how do I go about this because it can be done it's just we have to like allow ourselves to do that. I guess from like a little like jin and tantra tantra point of view when you talk about freedom and pleasure those are like kind of primary I think values within like a tandric spiritual framework too right

and uh I mean even the pitch for the retreat we're going to be doing but I think about this a lot meditatively is like can you learn how to like work with your own mind and your own internal world to produce that pleasure too

right enjoy the pleasure of being out in the world and those are wonderful and you can those are transformative If those are great, have them, share them with other people and do it. And then there's those private moments where you try to explore your own inner nature to think, can I generate feelings of freedom and pleasure inside myself, you know?

Yeah.

Learn how to do that. And I guess that's a lot of what the tandric meditation is trying to be about,

you know. So in any moment, maybe you can learn how to just do that a little bit for yourself. Yeah.

But that those values are obviously wonderful, right? Freedom and pleasure, those are fantastic values, right? You really are

at the core. Yeah.

I one thing, Daniel, but I'll throw it to you first, I guess.

No, go ahead. Do your thing. Go ahead, Eric. You know, the other thing that hit me, you know, and it it's coming up with freedom as we were talking, we're getting towards the end of this pod for today, but like as I was reflecting on what you initially had sent out, Fedra, I got to this funny point where I did think about our podcast and what's going on in the world as you were bringing up Daniel over the past year and even in the way our discussions kind of moved and evolved because we felt this need to address like, hey, there's a lot of funky stuff going on in the world and we're going to have to in our own I respond and comments and we've tried to do it in a way that I think fit our mission statement but also was responsive to that. And I was thinking about all that and um and I realized like there was a phrase that hit my mind because some of the other things I was listening to was like I'm kind of anti- athoritarian on some level. I don't like it.

You know why? Well, because freedom and pleasure are primary values. And those people who feel like they're going to take away other people's freedom and their other movement towards their own self-determined pleasures, right? The ones that you get to decide for yourself. I don't like it. And I realized like how strong that was. And I I thought about again the stuff that we've been doing, Daniel, you know, and uh and it just hit me like, oh yeah, that's part of this too for me. I don't know how that fits into like a total identity, but it does. And that informed a lot of what I wanted us to do. And I know we kind of made it kind of part of our joint little project, you know, in our own ways. But I was like, yeah, that's probably part of an identity, too. But when I pulled that all together, I realized like again, it kind of fits as a package because the spiritualities I like have that quality, you know, they have that that queer quality, [laughter] that unorthodox quality, the part where no, we're not going to be some,

you know, like aesthetic people

forgoing pleasure. [...] that. We're going to have pleasure in our lives. we're going to have that we're going to have freedom. We're going to have these things as part of our spiritual path. And like then you think, okay, I want to teach or maybe I want to do work with patients or clients or whatever you're doing. That's what I want to share with them. So that fits. You start to realize it kind of has a momentum to it. That's what I want to be as a parent to pass on to my kids or I want to share with the people who I feel are uniquely important in my world. You start to realize there's something going on in the whole thing. Anyways, it felt that way for me.

My gut reaction around that.

Yeah. Well, I think in in you know that the the similarities between you guys uh I'll use the word words organizing life principles you know and for Fedra she used the term values and for Eric he he used the term I think overarching theme you know to aim towards something and you know I guess the the the takeaway that I have from what you guys shared is that this idea of having themes that are going through your life that you're working that you're working towards. So you know Eric is working towards the you know development of himself and whatever you want to he's call it enlightenment calling what you know whatever that development however you want to use

yeah as best as you could do right you know and feder's identified things that that she is working towards and so what that means is like because those things those are your those are your north star that's your tent poles that you're going to work around those things regardless of whatever else kind of circumstances are happening and if people which is Eric and I'm glad that you brought that up because we've talked about this before. You know, it's been a while since we've discussed it, which I thought it was a is a great answer because if we are looking at it from a perspective of what it is that we have lost, we don't remember what it is that we may have gained at the same time or what else it is that we are working on that we can never lose. And that's, you know, when you're having an an economic discussion about people who worked in a coal mine their whole life or whatever, it's like, okay, well, unfortunately that sucks. You know, it's probably financially hard, but that identity is no longer an option. That's not an op like and more importantly, who are you while you were doing that? You know, who were you while you were doing that? what at what position in in society were you operating at when you were going into the earth and coming you know and it's a very I'm using that example just to kind of be uh thematically co cohesive but it's like you're exhausted you do you work you go home you relax you do your thing that's all that you do and I think for a lot of people that's still their life you they work more maybe they're not as exhausted physically but you're exhausted mentally because you got to pay for this [...] you got to sit in traffic you got you got all your phone's up your ass like you got all this other kind of stuff you emails a million times a day or whatever it is for people, but they don't have a lot of time to do anything else. And so, you know, sort of my take away from what you guys are saying is to identify the other aspects of your life that have value that transcend these particular temporary identities. Yes, this here is also a temporary identity, but my job or my career, no matter what it is, is an even more temporary identity. And if I can take the time to uh prioritize things that transcend the the temporal and that are here for my life that I'm building on, then I'm not going to say regardless of what happens to you because there are, you know, if if you know, god forbid something happened, if Fedra couldn't do the work that she enjoys doing, this conversation would come back and it's more serious. Now, you got to put it into practice. But you still have those organizing principles. It's like, okay, how can I still enjoy this thing and how can I still practice that thing? I'm going to make myself be in a situation where those two things can still occur, even if it doesn't look the way that it looked last week or the way that it looked last month, last year, next year, whatever the case is. But I'm organizing myself around that. And the same would go for Eric. So, I think that is very useful. So, thank you guys for uh for sharing.

One one other thing, Daniel. I mean because yeah, you know, and I'll get your all's feedback and if we all got the time to do it another five to 10 or something.

But um one things occurred like if you talk about like getting hurt in life, you know, so

I mean there's no doubt that like I've tried to love very intensely and at times I've gotten hurt. Um and like you can sit and you can say to yourself, what does that mean?

[clears throat]

But I thought about this like I was on retreat over the weekend and it was hitting me and I was like well I want to build the karma. I want to build the momentum. You know I'm a Buddhist person so I'll use karma. Right? I want to build that karma of being a person who is willing to love intensely.

I want to have that built into the nature of who I am. Right? And even though I might get hurt and you know at times I've gotten hurt, you know, uh um but I'm like, okay, I still even if I get hurt, I still want to build that part of who I am. I want to build that karmic character within myself. And you could think of that in all kinds of directions. I want to build the karmic character of someone who's against authoritarianism. That's the karmic character I want to have. I will want to build the karmic character like I want to be a healing person in the world kind of what you were talking about Daniel earlier in a lot of our work we work with people trying to help them I want to build that into myself and that's kind of a very

Buddhist tantricy or Buddhist attitude about things right I'm building that part of myself

if you get really Buddhist and you think okay well this these qualities in myself will even transcend this life because I'll continue on in some other life but I'll have built that momentum of being that person you know and you could take that with a lot of the things that we were putting as values. I want to be I want to carry the values of someone who values freedom and I want to value the freedom of others. That's a value. I'm going to build that into who I am to build that into my spirit to build that into my being if that makes sense. And I was just thinking about that a lot over the retreat. So anyways, I thought I'd throw it out to y'all too.

That's uh if I may real quick, it's so funny you said that because I don't think I realized this was like a Buddhist concept, but I think I I've always been the person in my friendships who will be like, "No, I always love like I've never loved." Like if you've never love you like or maybe that's there's a different way of saying like love like I've never been hurt because you know like outreach situations different all this stuff and a lot of individuals is they love because I'm the same. I love so hard and so intense. And then when that doesn't work, instead of taking that over to the next thing, it's like, nope, boom, it's like a little puppy. Like, I don't remember the other thing, like whatever. Or I you do and you learn things. But like that's such a cool like that's an interesting concept because I I guess I didn't realize that like that was a a Buddhist concept. But it I I hear you and I I feel that too. And so like that's a cool

I like the idea. It spoke to me like I want to love even in a way that like okay whether things go bad or good I still want to be able to love

you know even with that individual person I still want to love that person. I don't care

you know I want to have that as my value

right?

Yes. And that's something you can own for yourself, right? And no one can take that away from you.

Nope.

What did Sam meet say last week, Eric? We were talking about mantra and what he said with the greatest mantra, I love you.

I think that's true.

It's as good as his own money or something, right? Which probably all the mantras mean that in the in some way or another in the end anyways. What do the mantras mean? To have wisdom and to love, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. It's wise to love.

We're we're Well, it is February, Eric, so we're we're in it, you know. We're in it. So, it's good.

Someone literally a student asked me my favorite color yesterday and I was like, "Why are you asking me this?"

So, I said in the class, "Are there any questions?" And someone said, "What's your favorite color?" And I was like, "What the hell? Why are you asking me this?" But I said red.

Okay.

I always color of the goddesses, right?

I always answer clear.

Oh, well, that's like that's a good answer, too. That's all the colors together.

Yeah.

All the colors like blended together. [clears throat]

Fine. I taught my my little brother when he was young some some life skillful uh life lessons. One, what's your favorite food? Ice. What's your favorite drink? Water. And what's your favorite color? [laughter] Clear.

That's simple men.

All right. Well, Fedra, thank you so much for coming on this.

Thank you guys. I appreciate you.

Eric, thank you so much as always. Audience, thank you so much for tuning in. Uh, hit us up at jin andtragmail.com. Leave a like, comment, maybe even a subscription uh, in the video. It's it's uh, it's free. Uh, if you have any questions for uh, Fedra, please feel free to leave a comment on the video or wherever else you might be seeing this, one of the shorts or on Instagram or whatever. Show us some love at the Jin and Tantra podcast on Insta and uh, I don't know, wherever else we are. We we be where we be. Um, so yeah, thanks for tuning in. Thanks for joining us today again for Fedra and Eric. This is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Peace.