[Music] Hey fellow G&Ters, those of us like our spirituality with a twist. If you happen to be uh watching us on video, you might be thinking, wait, who is that fresh and friendly face I'm seeing? And it is one uh Ryan K. Davenport uh our uh anthropologist on call that we've mentioned in different episodes along the way. He's one of our social scientists, uh, contributors from a contributors from afar, now here in person. Thanks so much for coming on, Ryan. Absolutely. Happy to be here. Yeah. So, we, um, have talked to you about different sort of social science things, and we're in the midst of doing our little series on cult cults. And uh you know as we were talking about this we really you know we kind of realized in our conversations you and I were chatting about this that we're so close to your wheelhouse that you were like hey makes sense for you to come on and uh contribute. So uh it should be good. I'll do what I can. Yeah we've gotten to the point where well our idea is what just if you haven't caught the rest of these episodes we're in a part of a series. Part of the idea is really kind of talking about what's happening in the United States now and we're kind of trying to contribute to our own part of the conversation which is just saying there's a lot of cult stuff going on as we're recording in uh May of 2025. Um but also it's sort of an exploration of maybe like cult psychology as a human vulnerability overall. Yeah. Cult psychology. So, social psychology, um, mass thinking and the influences that the zeitgeist cultural influence have on people in general and their own little pockets. Yeah. So, we done social psychology on like conformity. Part of that was talking about like social roles and we looked at the Zimardo experiment and we've gotten to like an exciting part of these episodes because we're going to talk about um resistance to conformity and disscent. So uh uh definitely part of our G&T theme and so we're in that spot. And speaking of disscent and resistance uh I'm going to say the usual thing that people always say. If you want to help us to resist and descent against the evils of the algorithm that cult uh you know you can do all the things everybody asks you to do which would be the liking and the subscribing and uh everything that everyone says with everyone acknowledging that it just helps you do better with the algorithm. So thanks so much for that. That can be your way of expressing maybe your resistance and descent. Give us like a little thumbs up or something. Otherwise we'll get into conversation about uh resistance to conformity from like sort of a social psych point of view. Do you have anything you want to contribute to this first though, Ryan? Any initial thoughts or should we jump on in? I think you just jump jump on in. I'll I'll add where I can. All right, sounds great. So, you know, we're going through this in different parts and you know, Ryan may really be a guest for multiples of these because it's a lot of social science stuff, but on the social psychology part, the first part is just looking at like uh it's not so much, it's kind of interesting. It's not so much about like what makes someone resist, but what happens in the group once someone starts to resist. So it's a little bit more of an exploration of that and uh you know I gonna kind of put together some social psychology ideas around this. One of the first things that's really striking in these psych studies is it doesn't take a lot to induce conformity. Apparently it's like a very small number of people in a social psych kind of experimental setting and people will start to conform. So the numbers are kind of interesting. You know uh it's less people than what you would think. And so they've looked at it and really if you get three or four people starting to be conforming against you know one other person in the group the tendency will be for that last person to start to conform. Out of how many people though? Well I mean the thing is that the numbers don't have to be that big. That's the point. So you have like one person and three other people and they can force the other person to conform. So the groups aren't that big. Mhm. You know, um, usually on these things there's like maybe one person who's the actual subject and the rest of them are sort of like people who are acting out their parts. But is it doesn't take a lot of pressure to get people to conform. That's one of the first observations, right? And um, and like the weird part about that too is they found that even if you start adding more and more people, it doesn't really matter past a certain point. So, and it says something about I guess like social pressure and it doesn't take a lot to get people to start already starting to adjust their behavior. So, that's one of the first things that they kind of do with this. You got any thoughts on that either one of you? Um there I think there's another episode if I recall. Um where you mentioned like there was a certain percentage of people like I want to say it was like 30% or something that Yeah. The magic third. Yeah. Um does that relate to this concept as well, Eric, or is this like a completely different thing? Well, I think the idea is that you can get those people to start just to start to conform within those numbers. But what's weird, you know, there's like different studies around this. We'll get to another one later on where they get people going even up to like 70%. So there's kind of variations. It doesn't always have to be this 33% thing, right? Yeah. And uh you know, so different have different things about that. I think in the ash one though, which is the line comparison one, that's the one that seems to be like within that 30 something range depending on the conditions, but other ones seem to go even higher. So, I mean, I think the idea here maybe is like as far as like the psychology of conformity that we've been exploring is just to show that it doesn't take a lot to get that to kick in. You know, you don't have to have some huge group against you. it can be a relatively small number of people and people will already start sort of acquiescing to that which might say something about vulnerability you know to that phenomenon does that make sense to you all yeah it makes it makes sense but I would you know I think the other component here and I don't want to like kind of jump to like another episode you're thinking about but I imagine a lot is in reference to personality like dominant personalities you know passive personalities and so forth right well don't get Eric started on I knew it was dangerous, right? So, no, the thing about it, and this is just like I'm trying to be true to this research as much as I can for these things. You can kind of riff on them in different ways. So, I'm trying to be like, okay, let me present what they say and then, you know, at least from that point of view. And what they're trying to show in this is that it's independent of like personality type on some level. I mean, that's the whole thing in the Zimardo one, you know, the Stanford prison one, which is the last one we just did. Yeah. which is like it like their their point is that it's not so much about the personalities of the individuals. It's more like, you know, like you'll like this phrase from Durkheim, you know, the famous sociologist, but it's more about the social facts than it is about like individual personality differences so much, you know. So, I mean, it's I'm sure there's personality differences in this for sure, you know. And I'm sure all three of us they they showed us some [...] up lines, we would all resist. All three of us here. None of us would crack. But I think saying it's sort of like it's weird in the sense that like it has and the argument in this thing is that it has less to do with individual personality types and more to do with like just the social setting that's you know the dominant thing or at least that's what they're looking at. So what struck me about this on like you know I was trying to have some personal reactions to this and I realized like I think since I was young I sort of picked up on this. I don't know how it was for you all, but I've always sort of like not liked bigger groups of people on some level because I you could just see like the fake versions of people come out. I think even when I was like, you know, in my teens and, you know, when you started like looking at how people behave, maybe even younger, you know, I was like more like one-on-one interactions because I would feel like I would get more of an authentic version of that person. Then all of a sudden, you're in a group setting, you're like, well, this what's this fake ass [...] going on here? Right. You know, I had like sort of an intuitive sense of that. So, anyways, I thought I would throw that out there because that I did personally feel that on some level. Is that something you all thought about when you were younger, too? Yeah. Yeah. AB, absolutely. I think, you know, when I was in undergrad, um, you know, and I was just watching like I had friends who it was it was really kind of curious, um, because like I had friends who were in like fraternities like and and one-on-one super cool, right? you know, and then like you watch them and they get, you know, listen, I'm not trying to trash fraternities, but we could we could we could spend some time on that. Um, and because there is a lot to trash. Um, but yeah, then then you get them in in the fraternity with the fraternity brothers. It's like, whoa, what the hell happened to this person? Yeah. Like they completely changed and became like all these other like, you know, I don't know, fraternity bros or something, you know? It was really interesting phenomenon. I'm like, holy [...] It was kind of actually freaked me out a little bit. Yeah, I think that's that's kind of what they're picking up on in this. And it doesn't take a lot of people to do that. All of a sudden, you get that person just in another group and it'll just elicit a completely different aspect of like who who they are or something or they'll just go to whatever the group thinking is of that group. You know, I sometimes have had some weird like uh I mean funny conversations where I was like, well, I don't really want to hang out with you and your family. I'll hang out with you. Yeah. But I don't want to hang out with you and your spouse because you're just a different person or you and your family or you like you're just not the same person. And I don't I don't It's It's bad to say it, but you can almost be like, "Well, I don't really like that person." She's like, "But Eric, it's Christmas and you're my boyfriend. [...] that. I'm not hanging out with you and your family. No, I'm not hanging out with you and your spouse and I'm not hanging out with you and your family." Well, you have more of the community thing than me, Daniel. But I would be like, "No, you all have your Christmas without me and I'll I'll I'll catch up with you later." Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I I definitely understand. I mean, I was never part of a fratern I guess I lived a little bit differently. I was never part of a fraternity or anything. I worked through school and you know, paid for that as I went, you know, like I didn't have any help or anything like this. Just my military and whatever. Um, and so I never had that college experience. And I I you know work with people whose kids go to college and they have that experience, their kids have that experience and I'm like whatever. That shit's not real. You know what I mean? Like it's not a real thing. It's a it's a collection of like artificially gathered people who are supposed to be there for, you know, a merit-based process and they're drinking and hanging out and partying and whatever and like this is higher education. Okay. All right. That sounds wonderful. you know, so I never got that part. But I do think that there is something to be said about like pressure to to conform, pressure to fit in. It is not um implicit, but it's but it totally is there. You know, when we go, you know what I mean, right? You know what I'm saying? Like it's you're looking to like vibrate on the same level as whoever it is that you're speaking with. And I I mean, even I do it even now, you know, some find myself sometimes laughing at something. I'm like, "Oh, yeah." And I'm like, "Wait, that in my head I'm like, "That actually wasn't that funny. Why am I laughing right now?" I guess I'm just trying to make this person feel good. You know what I'm saying? And then I think you extrapolate that on a larger level. And I don't know. I think you can be uh coerced without even being conscious about it. Yeah. You know, it makes me think of sort of the notion of like maybe I wonder if there's like an inherent desire for like social harmony, right? you know, and to avoid conflict. If we go back, and Eric's going to hate this, um, we go back to our early ancestors, um, and we think about sort of sort of, you know, kind of what people were facing, right, you know, and threats and so forth. It's like, you really you really don't want to get in a violent situation. You don't want things to escalate. Um, and so I it may be something, you know, I haven't actually, I'm actually looking at this after we talk, but it'd be interesting to look at the research on this sort of is there a tendency for so you don't want violence in your group? Like that's not going to be beneficial to anyone. Um, so maybe just something inherent in in most people or many people to like want a certain degree of social harmony to avoid conflict. I don't know. It's interesting thought. I suppose like on a psychosspiritual level there's that and it's something we all kick around in different conversations we've had, but that like authenticity question. Yeah. How much does it take to push people off of authenticity? And like the numbers don't have to be that big. You get three or four people and it might push people into some kind of weirdly artificial version of who they are. So yeah. Well, let's let's loop this one more layer back. Let's go to Psalms. Okay. As they say it or or as the kids say, Psalms. So Old Testament Psalms 23:7. And I know because this is the, you know, the only, you know, proverbs or whatever that I have, uh, tattooed on me. Uh, but it is there. Uh, so it says, "As a man thinkketh in his heart, so is he." Uh, he may laugh and eat food, but if his but his but he is not with thee. So it's a representate. It's a you know a euphemism to say that like the internal portions of somebody may not be expressed externally and that you know be be cautious of that. And there's one from what is it? Is it Chwangza or who is it that says um uh be cautious be lerary of a man whose belly does not jiggle when he laughs. Oh, I wonder if that is a Chongza thing or maybe that's a Chinese proverb or something. Yeah, I don't know. It's not if it but probably more la than maybe lza. Yeah. Yeah. But it's the same it's the same thing, right? It's this it's this fake, you know, if you're not actually laughing but laughing at something, how genuine is it? It's how authentic is that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's the Gnostic one, too, right? If you bring out what what is with that which is within you, what you bring out will save you. If you do not bring out that which was within you, that what you don't bring out will destroy you. Right? You get the real strong statement of that, right? Because that runs through. I mean part of it will be to me in these conformity things will be okay what does it do to the group once people start to descent or you know those kinds of questions and the other part which is such a big theme for us on this thing is like how do you get to some au authentic headsp space at least in part you're have to learn how to resist these things and maybe recognize like it doesn't take a lot to push you off your game potentially right it's not a lot and I think you know we you can make a fair assessment that society doesn't really you know at best it doesn't care about you being authentic and at worst it does not want you to be authentic. It actively really discourages it, right? It wants you to conform, right? You know, um kind of a weird way of looking at it because you're almost looking at a society as its own individual entity, which I don't really want to do, but um yeah, for you know, it's sort of like no, it's if you want to have some sort of authenticity to to go within the self, explore the self, understand the self, right? um at some level um you need to reject society, right? Pretty hard to find any sort of authentic self without doing that. Right. This is about like 95% of every conversation Ryan and I have ever had our entire lives, but very true. It's It's true. I I just I don't see any other way you can do it, right? I mean, yeah, I'm open to being wrong, but Yeah. I mean, I'd love to be wrong, but I don't know. I just don't see it. Yeah. Um, so I guess maybe the moral moral for me on this part is like it doesn't take a lot and maybe it's something that to develop the awareness of if we're trying to get to like this, you know, like how we learned about ourselves, we can kind of reflect afterwards and like, oh, did some weird version of me come out? Oh [...] that thing happened. But yeah. Okay. So the next one was a little bit on norms that popped up here. And we had done a whole thing, you know, in the Zimardo experiment on like social roles and norms, but the one that I found was this little thing about like littering and it just tries to bring up a couple of things here too. So uh if you set up a situation where littering is sort of the norm and they're just doing these artificial setups, you know, you go into an environment, you watch people go through and see how they behave. if littering is the norm, people will do it. So that's one of the things that comes up with it. But uh especially it'll happen if there's someone else there who like draws attention to that social norm, you know. So if people see a bunch of litter, they're more statistically likely just to go, "Okay, [...] it." And they'll throw their thing on the ground. But especially if they see another human actually like doing the thing and it establishes sort of the social norm drawing attention to it well then that will like even more so reinforce the conformity and the you know social kind of that aspect of role behavior. So anyways, it just says something about again sort of I suppose a level of human vulnerability to this, right? All it takes is someone to demonstrate to you what the conduct is and all of a sudden people go, "Oh, that's the conduct. Okay, then." And you just do this thing, right? And it might even for people who might not even be entirely in favor of that conduct outside of that or something. Does that resonate with you from the anthropological perspective too, Ryan? Yeah, I mean I mean that's kind of that social cohesion idea um you know of just sort of like okay I'm just I'm thinking about it this from a Dowist perspective which we can touch on touch on later. Um, but I think yeah, I sort of I mean it's it's almost more like if someone you I guess what I'm thinking about this and this may not answer your question, but it's sort of like if someone has developed their sense of self like are they more resistant to that? And my assumption would be yes, right? You're going to be less less you know you're going to you're not going to go with the crowd as much. um you know whereas like you know you whereas if like from a dowist perspective and this is kind of I was thinking about this you know if you know that you actually don't really want to have a conflict you know um what you want you're like okay I you know I know myself well enough I understand what I believe about this I'm going to look at this situation and you know there's you may have to determine it's like am I going to go go with the group you know or am I going to kind of do my own thing and usually from a dollar's perspective you're not you're you're going to avoid the conflict, right? But internally, internally, you have to remain very strong in your convictions. You just don't necessarily want to show it. It's like this notion of like I guess we call camouflage from one perspective. It's like, yeah, I know what I believe and I know what you know what I agree with, but in this situation, I need to be kind of careful here, right? Um, and so I think it kind of goes back this notion of sort of like, all right, am I going to go with this group because there's there's risk. Um, and I'm or am I going to go or am I just going to do it because um because I everyone else is doing it and I'm kind of, you know, more of following like like a social zombie almost. I guess it implies like a certain level of like psychosspiritual awareness then you have to be able to to be to be free to choose what you're going to do because this is I guess kind of a freedom question on some level too right to be free to do what you want to do you have to have like almost like multiple levels of like cognitive awareness kicking where okay I'm aware that um these things can happen you know I could just litter just because I've seen it as a norm or maybe I'll just conform because there's a few other people around me who are acting a certain way and I'll get pushed into that space or something, right? So you have to have that meta awareness and then you also have kind of awareness to go well maybe in this particular circumstance I have my freedom also just to kind of go along with things which is like a meta on top of a meta or something right but that implies like a certain amount of internal awareness that allows you to be free to do what you need to do in that circumstance right yeah and I think from a Dallas perspective you're going to be kind of doing a costbenefit analysis you know can I be myself in this situation um you know and and what's the cost for doing that Um and and uh or or is there an actual threat here, right? Um which Oh, sorry. Yeah, it almost gets to the next thing because like there's obviously like risk of punishment. Yeah. As part of this whole thing, too. So, they talk a little bit about like, okay, what are the risks of punishment and one of the interesting ones is they can do like kind of cross-cultural stuff. So, they talk about like the Banto people of Zimbabwe. I'm not familiar with that culture or subculture or something. But apparently there's pretty severe punishments for nonconformity. And then I guess when you run these sort of more conformist kind of things within people from a space like that, well then not too surprising. They they conform more and more and more than maybe people even from other cultures because they can feel that risk of like punishment kind of like there underneath the surface just for actions of like nonconformity and non-compliance. Well, that's happening right now. Oh, yeah. I was I was going to say, yeah, that's it's happening right now. It's like, and if we look at, you know, we look, let's look at China for example, where basically sort of, you know, almost 2,000 years, there's been like legalism either explicit or legalism under the guise of Confucianism or now it's sort of like under the guise of like, you know, quasi communism or something. I don't know what it's you know it's it's not communism but it's like the notion of using fear as as a means to get to to control people right we don't got to go to China that's happening right here yeah and I was going to say and that's happening right now is like very explicit like if you don't do what I you know do what I say or you you know speak against me like there is there's a threat right and a lot of people will like you know be like okay you know I don't want that you know um you know so yeah I mean it's it's a thing Right. Um and and I guess that's that's that's out of the thoughtful person who's sort of like, okay, like I don't agree with this, but um I also know if I do this, there may be there may be an actual threat. And so for for Americans, I think this is kind of new. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think in these psych studies, it's relatively nothing at stake in a lot of these things. So they're trying to get to some subtle aspects of can you get people to conform about stuff where there really isn't that much to lose one way or the other, right? Just the thing of like I'm not conforming with other people. So you pick up on something that's even a bit more subtle. But like what you all are bringing up, if I really start putting something at stake, and we got to this a little bit when we were talking about the attachment theory aspects of this too, Daniel, like a few episodes ago, if you really get something emotional at stake, you know, or financial, which seems to be the weapon of threat now, right? Most of it's kind of like financial threat really crack people. But you know there's an underlying I guess sort of sense of like fear of punishment that even over things that are kind of small you know that you can amplify more and more once you put the actual legit pressures on people and you're like maybe tapping into some like again maybe the theory that I have with this I think maybe you all too some just fundamental vulnerability in like the human being to be like easily moved on these things right. Yeah that seems like it right. It seems like there is this fundamental vulnerability, you know, um which which probably makes evolutionary sense quite honestly, you know, um to to keep a certain social cohesion, right? I smile because we're gonna have we're gonna have to do some separate on evolution to really hatch this out. And I don't don't necessarily agree on on evolution. I don't know if I agree with anybody about this and it's fine. I'll be the outlier person on this. I will not conform on this point. You'll be the voice of disscent. I'll be the voice of disscent and it'll go nowhere, but that's fine. Um, and there's a question, I guess, of this too that's raised a little bit of like what happens inside of people within these things, which I guess you were bringing up too, Ryan. Like there's an old book called um things fall apart. Did any of y'all have to read that thing ever in your life? Any undergrad time or something? That's not the one by That's not the one by Pemma children, right? when I think she's just like pulling that title out. Okay, you you're funny on that, Daniel, because all of her books are like that. Things fall apart when bad things happen, that scare you. It's always that same [...] from her, things that you fear, things that she's got she's got her audience, you know? She has her audience. Yeah, for sure. Well, if before if before we go to that, I I I'm not going to say it, but to to to highlight the point, I rarely bring up my cultural heritage, and there's a reason for that because when I do, there's consequences for me. And so, I'm not going to do that now, even though I want to. Um, I'm not going to because I do have legit concerns that that it will be used against me as it has been in a quiet way financially, you know, uh, losing losing patients or clients or something like this when I, you know, give my my background. And to me, it's such it it it's like it's so it's such [...] you know. So, for whoever is listening, don't ask. I'm not going to say, you know, I'm from California. That's that's how different I am. You know what I'm saying? Like that's the that's the level of my difference. But all these patients in the Midwest just being from California, Daniel, that's all it took. They're like, "Really? The Bay Area?" I said, "Pully eating [...] We don't want him to stick." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but it's real, man. I'm telling you, it's it's real. it it the the internal sense of like inability to share who how you know what affected me what influenced me you know whatever like culturally not that I chose it I'm not like sitting here bragging on whatever I don't do that I'm just saying if in the course of conversation sometimes you say oh wow you are you know oh I like German food my father's side was half German that's you know like there's some sense of you know connection in this way rapport building but I'll tell you I have to keep it it's very strange for me to have to keep it in my mind to not share things that are true not even true like I believe them to be true believe them because that is just like some general facts about myself that I have to be like no don't share that don't don't you cannot yield you cannot give you cannot be your authentic self it is not accepted it is not accepted in this setting even if it's an open kind of sharing forum uh you said it right. What is the cost of being myself? And the answer to that is sometimes very high. Sometimes it's very high and we have to make that calculation, you know, which sucks in my opinion. I'm really sorry it's like that, Daniel, my brother. I wish it wasn't, you know. Love you, man. Wish it wasn't like that. Yeah, that's that's shitty, man. I thanks thanks for making that point, too. Like, I think that's an important point to make. And you know there's there's a lot of cultures that are pretty um oppressive for the individual you know and um legitimate threats too you know uh you know where it's like hey um you know if you don't do this like you know we're going to we're going to you know affect you financially or you know even even with your social support system you know um you know that it's a real thing and it's not just you that will be affected it's it's other people who you care about Right. And and that's that is a means of control, right? Um to to um to keep a certain level of cohesion and to kind of keep the culture together. And you know, I think you know, I certainly know a lot of people who gone through that and growing up with it. And it's um it tends to cause a little bit of anger or as we say in Chinese medicine, a little stagnation, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. Um there's there's one more um uh that I can mention here. So if we remember uh Will Smith went up and and slapped uh Chris Rock a couple years ago on the on the Oscars, right? Live public television. One man slaps another man because he made a joke. They banned him from the Oscars. Eric, get this. 10 years. Oh. Um, uh, Will Smith is banned for 10 years. Yes. 10 years. 10 year ban. Naughty boy. You cannot win for 10 years. You can't even come back here for 10 years. So, we could say for physical assault, 10 years. Stiff punishment. I would think we would agree. That's a stiff one. Well, Richard Gear in like 94 or 93, whenever it was, know what you're talking about. Yeah. He said that uh the uh you know he asked for leniency from the Chinese government to the Tibet people of Tibet. Now just keep in mind Eric 10 years for hitting another human being live on television. Richard Gear got a little spanking for that his his outburst also which did called for no violence by the way. How many years do you think he got for his indiscretions Eric or Ryan? I imagine he was just banned permanently. That was just a lifetime ban. 20 years. 20 years. Okay. He was banned for 20 years. Yeah. For asking for compassion. So if that I mean that's control if there if there ever was one. So he calculated the cost of his you know sense of compassion, his sense of uh justice in the world and using the platform that he had at that moment. Um, and they banned him, which is just a crazy, you know, for words in this country. It's not even like he's somewhere else. He's here. Hollywood is here. You know what I'm saying? It's just it Yeah. I don't know. I just Hollywood banned him. The Oscars. The Oscars banned him. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Richard Gear for that. Yes. Oh, that's crazy. I didn't know that. I thought it was like the China banned him for like ever. It's because of the the the is it the Chinese yen? Is that what it is? I don't know. It's weird. Currency. It's about the money. It's always about the money, right? You know, I that's what's really kind of strange now because, you know, there's a political undercurrent within these things that pops up there. And like this seems to be the innovation now that's so weird to watch because it's going after everything financially. It's basically that's the threat. And that's a threat against obviously Richard Gear too after our money. So the threat's not just financial though that we see certainly in our country. It's also there's other ones too. There's physical ones. That's true. Yeah. It's true physical consequences like throw it out of the country and like it's it's wild, you know? It's a lot of it's financial. That's true. You're right. It's an overlook on my part because a lot of it's like we're just going to pick you off the street from some weirdo ice agent thing. Talking about that like last episode even, right? Yeah. There's that. But I think the in the thing that seems so striking is like all the financial threat though, you know, that's even different than, you know, a lot we live through like Guantanamo and stuff, right? We're just going to pick people up and stick them someplace on an island somewhere, right? But this is kind of odd in terms of its use of finances. It's even a little bit different, too. And this the the the sweepingness of it, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. Well, h how important is disscent in general? Well, it's it's amazing that you ask, Daniel. It's so funny that you ask because it's it's next thing on these notes. Yeah. Okay. So the next thing that comes up is like what's they don't again look at reasons why people desent with this particular discussion but it gets to like what is the impact of people dissenting which is kind of like fascinating for us and we'll consider it is like maybe at the end of all this what's the role of spirituality and descent like how entwined are those two things and I'm curious to hear what you two think but in terms of the little literature part of this um any descent can like be a factor in breaking sort of spells of conformity And what they kind of show is it doesn't take if it doesn't take a lot of people to induce conformity, it doesn't necessarily take a lot of people to induce disscent either. So in some of some of like the classic studies like you show people the lines and you try to get people to conform to agree that two lines don't obviously don't match match like these are the studies that they're running right to boil this down to isolate this factor and we have different episodes on these things. It's called the Ash experiments. But anyways, even one the Stanford Oh, that was the Ash one. You're right. Sorry. The Ash one. Yeah. Yeah. The one we did previous was the Stanford prison experiment. Yeah, that one is curious because I don't know if anyone you never be able to run that again. So, how do you figure out if you can even break that would be interesting, right? Right. Right. Can't even do it. But you know in those kinds of things the research apparently shows that even if you have like one person dissenting that could already create a crack within a group of like dissenting people or they'll take a if it's only one subject in the group but you all are asking about numbers earlier. Well that person can start to refuse to descent. So you have a bunch of people who are all collaborating. Mhm. One person says, you know, a number of them are going to say the the wrong answer, the obvious wrong answer, whatever it is, right? And you get one other person that will resist before the the true subject of the experiment and then that person will start to resist too. And it doesn't take a lot. And the weird part about it is it doesn't even have to be right. the person may still be wrong, but not even agreeing with the rest of the group. But just the the fact of someone dissenting creates an opening. So, it's really it kind of shows like just disscent period of any type can start to snap this thing open, which I find kind of interesting and I think even important for like a podcast little thing like ours or who's ever out there trying to make a little bit of noise. you know, all it takes is some disscent and next thing you know, that opens up the possibility, which I guess from like a social psychology point of view, that's I guess kind of nice, right? It doesn't take a lot. And you don't even have to really agree with the person, you know, because like they could have this the it rigged up. So that person's also giving a wrong answer, but it opens up the possibility like, okay, [...] it. I'll give I'll give the right answer now, you know? So that's kind of interesting, you know, and it raises maybe something that we all would care about, like you do a little bit of descent in your life and maybe that starts to crack open some of the rigidities around this. I don't know. What do you all think about that? Does that feel optimistic to you too? Um, yeah. I mean I you think about I mean maybe like when I think about I'm not going to project my own thoughts on onto you but when I think about like my own like spiritual path like just you you have to reject certain you have to descent against certain certain norms right and I think Eric and I you have talked about we were growing up and we're just like look at sort of hey this is what mainstream culture says you're supposed to do and Daniel imagines the same and a part of you just sort of like no and then just at the individual the internal level that creates a crack, right? That creates a crack for maybe you to begin to like explore, it's like, no, oh, there's something interesting in here, right? Um, and so if we project that onto larger society, yeah, I mean, you see a descent, you see another view, you know, um, you know, another perspective, it's like, oh, maybe I need to explore this. And then someone else does, you know, and then we, you know, get then you get movements. And then we would call this, you know, in anthropology, you know, we call this like, you know, contestations of culture. you have different differing ideas opposing each other and usually one's going to going to win out, right? It's kind of how things grow both internally and and externally. I think it's nice to think that like it, you know, it doesn't take too much to start like even shaking that a little bit, you know, based on this kind of way of thinking, right? You know, uh so that's kind of cool. Okay. Then they get to like styles of doing this. And on the style question, they say, "Well, what seems to be most persuasive?" And I've wondered about this, too. So, on the one hand, you wanted to be forceful and persistent and like unwavering. So, the more the person who's being the the center, you know, stays with their like, "Nope, I'm not going along with this. I'm not going along with this." They're forceful, persistent, and they just don't vary. That seems to have an impact on people, right? And that can break up some of this dynamic of people just sort of complying or conforming, right? But the other part of it, it's supposed to be kind of balanced by sort of a the idea of being flexible and like open-minded. So, you need a combination of things. You need like a consistency of consent of disscent. Okay, I'm going to consistently do this. I'm going to consistently do this and I'm not going to change, right? uh uh not in a stubborn way but just in a way that you know it's like no I'm going to be if I think something is wrong I'm going to be persistent in that but on the other hand you don't want to look hard-headed or something right that kind of like breaks the impact of that right in terms of the social psychology idea there has to you have to appear to be open-minded a flexible person and not being dogmatic necessarily and that seems to have like the biggest impact on this yeah so we have been you know these two words have been coming up pretty much in every episode cognitive dissonance right and I think in a in a when I'm you know I was going to say something earlier but I'm glad I held it so you're doing two things number one you are looking at the purview of the greater that you are in whether it's a small group of people or society as a whole and asking is this true for you right and this is just by yourself so you have to do that first on your own you have to you know go through your critical thinking process and just say does this fit with me is this rational does this feel right all the sorts of things that that happens and then be able to again like this ask this question which I find very interesting you know ask what's the cost of being myself with this belief in the greater simultaneously and then you have to see how what what the cost is for that and then do you do like what Ryan was saying and like you know conform but have your own beliefs where you know in order to you know costbenefit analysis based on the situation or can you be your authentic self in the face of the costs right if there is no cost and how how loud how boisterous are you willing to to express yourself um and then the other part that I am thinking about is that like I am aware that you know we get some feedback from some people sometimes and so you know not everybody agrees with what we're saying and but that's the point. The point is is that not everybody is going to agree with how you think. So how Eric thinks, how Ryan thinks, how Daniel thinks, or how you, the listener right now, is hearing this and thinking. The goal of this is not necessarily to get someone to change their mind. The goal of this is to get you, the listener, to pay attention to where you are in relation to the sea of thoughts that is surrounding you and ask is this mine or not mine? Does this fit with me, my moral compass, what I believe to be important or not? And then to say, can I express my distaste or displeasure or disdain for dis ideas? You know what I'm saying? Like, is that is that a possible thing? And and understanding that not everybody is going to agree with you. And so I I'm just I wanted to say that because I realize that we hold Eric Eric, you and me for sure, and of course with Ryan as well, we hold very deeply compassionate views for humanity as a whole. We are, you know, we're we're in the wellness field. We're, you know, Chinese medical doctors. We practice acupuncture herbs. We teach like healing techniques to many students over years and years and years and our patients and our friends and our family and to the people listening to this right now. This is a kind of a a psychological healing in a sense, you know. So this is who we are. I am also aware that there are many people who believe in the stupid [...] that they actually say even though it is antithetical to my own personal deeply held beliefs that are just for the betterment of humanity. And I have to understand that that is going to always sit improperly with me. So I'm not going to change anybody's mind about what they believe. I may disagree with the the culture in general on many things, but at the end of the day, all I can do is maintain who it is that I believe that I have cultivated up to this point and continue to try to be that, you know, uh accepting the the risks and rewards when I have the opportunity to express that to the outside world. Yeah, Daniel, I think you bring up a really interesting point which I've been thinking a lot about um which is this notion of um and I almost think about it in sort of like I think about the hero like the archetype of the hero. This is I realize it doesn't seem like it's connected, but it's going to connect, right? And you know, the hero sacrifices himself for the greater good, right? Um and then you think about the archetype of the the jester or the joker, right? Um and the Joker is like, well, no, I'm not going to sacrifice myself. I'm going to survive. I'm going to find a way to survive this. But they don't actually lose themselves in that process, you know, from the way I read it. So this is kind of an interesting approach to to conflict, you know, is like um and again sort of thinking from the Dowist perspective, the Dowist would say, you know, yeah, you you may not agree with this, but you actually have to consider the ramifications for your actions. Like how is you know a Dowist is not going to die that Dowists are not heroes, right? Um not martyrs. I guess like they're not they're not they're not martyrs. Yeah, it's hero heroic depending on what you define the hero archetypes to be, but they're not going to be martyrs. They're not going to be martyrs. They're not going to be types up. You don't have to be a martyr to be a hero, right? Although oftentimes the heroes will sacrifice themselves. Yeah. Especially from like a western tradition, right? Um yeah. Yeah. You know, and so I guess from Adam's perspective, no no interest in that. You know, they'd be like, "Okay, I'm going to do my thing." thing as Daniel mentioned is like you really have to cultivate the self to kind of know who you are and kind of what you're willing to do you know um in a given circumstance. Um it's a really interesting question right probably one we'll like you know come come back to later I guess the thing that strikes me about it is like if we you know we're diagnosticians so if we diagnose the problem on some level of as being like conformity right that is the problem right and uh you know that's our theory behind cult so if you diagnose like that is the thing then strikes me about each in your own way saying but kind of echoing back to what you were saying Daniel specifically like It's not so much even that you agree with the what the other person says. The research doesn't say that. You might disagree with them. They might actually wrong from your perspective. But just the fact that somebody disagrees has a power to it, right? Then that strikes me as something interesting, right? But then the thing becomes can we bl the spell of conformity or break the spell of cult, right? You know, now of course what Ryan's bringing up, and I think this is something deep, and Ryan and I have talked about this off mic. You know, you're not going to descent to the point where you're going to like throw yourself in front of a like a a charging mob if you're a Dowist and get yourself trampled because that actually costbenefit analysis won't survive. That's not worth it, right? And I we Ryan and I have talked about this before, so I know kind of like what he's alluding to there in other conversations we've had. And it's been really interesting even about the time now. to what extent do you expose yourself? Even what you're bringing up, Daniel, right? to what extent do I expose myself, you know, because I don't think I'm gonna have an impact and the cost of benefit analysis doesn't pay off and this isn't spiritually wise, just to get myself crushed over something where maybe I'd be better off cultivating myself, you know, and just not my putting myself into that position where the other parts of what I'm doing are so important that they're going to be ruined by actions that aren't going to produce much results. Right? So, no one's going to say that. That isn't wise. then it doesn't it's not dowistly wise or maybe wise in any sense. But the other part would be like if it is the case that if you just get some disscent then all of a sudden it starts to crack things up that strikes me as having a powerful idea too. So well I mean I think we can just look I mean I think those are all all valid points. Um and just thinking about this I mean this podcast is is a means of descent right? Yeah, it is is a means of descent against a social norm like many social norms, right? Um and it is in some ways direct, but in most ways it's kind of indirect because it's approaching things from more the psychosspiritual level, right? So it's not like physically forceful, right? Um and so like you know and we if we're going to be like more dowist about this or even Buddhist to a certain extent like you're not going to be super direct. You're going to you're going to kind of go around. Um you're going to go around. You're going to be indirect. And you're taking away our [...] Ryan. We're trying sneaky and you're just you're just outing us. We're trying to be all sneaky and you're just outing us. No, but I want to be a little bit direct with this, you know, to be honest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but that's that's kind of how you you know, you're like you're not out there waving a waving a flag and like marching, you know, with the gun. like you're trying to approach things from a deeper level like to I think some you know because I used to be a little more like that when I was younger. Um but I also think that we we can affect change on a daily basis with our patients or our students you know and and that may you know it's kind of the you're kind of working from the internal to the to the external external. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think from what you were saying, Daniel, like even if some people are like, "Fuck these guys. I don't agree with them at all." Yeah. [...] you, too. No. Makes the point of making you go, "Well, wait a minute. They're saying something different, maybe it makes me think, maybe I should think something different. Maybe I'll come up with my own conclusion." Broke the You broke the conformity spell. And that's the positive what we're trying to do. you don't have to with us, but you know, if it is true that just hearing some people dissent opens up space for other people to in their own way, I mean, that's kind of the goal on some level, right? It's okay. Yeah. Yeah. And the the I mean, the deeper point is like not agreeing to just simply disag not not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement is where trolling or something, right? We're not It's like Yeah. It's like where you're coming from. like are you disagreeing on because you're standing on business or are you disagreeing because you're a contrarian? And those are both fine, you know, but one is going to take you further. If you have a sense of like again a sense of self, a moral compass, uh a strong ideological stance, political, even if you disagree with somebody else on, you know, whatever, but they're they're still in your ingroup, you have to be able to have the the the conversations with them or you have to be able to have the the interactions with them that show your autonomy. Or else, who are you? If you're not being who you are, who are you know, who are you at that point? It just I don't know. It's the the the co again the cognitive dissonance for people to choose to to intentionally not be who they are is just a very uh hard choice to make when there are not great consequences at stake. Now, I'm going to agree with Ryan on this that I think a lot of these are hardwired and Eric, we talked about this a couple episodes ago. You talked about this as a vulnerability and I talked about this as a tendency and you asked me if that language matters and I said yes it does matter because I think you know like I'm the anthropologist when Ryan's not here just from my own little you know evolutionary [...] Well you're an ego psych person both of you. Yeah, for sure. Because I think that it it is a it is a safety mechanism, right? That there is safety in numbers. So people will look for other people who agree with them in general and then they're more willing to continue to want to agree than disagree. It's like if you, you know, talk with somebody who you don't have the same ideological views as, you're going to agree on many things. Even but, but if you weren't talking to them, you're probably going to argue at each other from across the bow far more than when you're face to face for the most part because there's just a human tendency to want to be like, "Yeah, see, look how much we agree on. We're we're reasonable people." Versus like, "You're a [...] asshole." You know, you know what I mean? Like it's just you that that's that's just kind of generally how I feel. But in some in some cases like you have to take a stand about what you think and what you believe in and and that might be I don't know at the cost of some other people. But I also realize that's also feeding the conspiracy folks. So you know there's there's that part of it as well. Well maybe Go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry I go ahead please. Um it just made me think about sort of like you know I kind of grew up in this sort of academic um environment you know and um I remember my my dad like I didn't we we oftentimes don't agree on things really not enough but you know many things we we don't um did not agree on and but he was always staunch because he's university administrator and he was like he the one thing I remember really would piss him off is like when like because he he he agreed with the sacredness of the academy meaning that like you really should you need diverse opinions on a campus doesn't matter if you agree with them right that place is supposed to be um you know lack better word sacred um for people to have free discussion right um you know it was supposed to be the one place you don't have you can say what you want to say and there really shouldn't be these crazy repercussions um and when you don't have those places you know I think from a Tibetan Buddhist perspective it's encouraged you know and you kind of ancient Greece, it was encouraged. You want debate, you want discussion, you want dissent, you want diversity of voices because you want an honest intellectual uh view of things, right? Um and I think what we what we've seen, you know, socially um is the eroding of our educational system, but also the eroding of like intellectual debate, you know, um or the discouragement of it, right? Yeah. Like I mean we're getting maybe towards the end of this episode on some level. So, I'm going to suggest maybe we save some of this little material for next time we hang out um and wrap this up uh uh when we you know next time like this stuff on descent there's some other kind of cool stuff to say but you know I mean in terms of like the undercurrent of what's happening now is a lot of this um intellectual freedom is like being attacked right I mean it's like is what sort of many ways at stake right y of Course some people are being physically attacked too, you know, but they're a lot of times they're being physically attacked over like ideas. Yeah. Stuff that they said or they wrote, right? It's crazy. It's crazy to like think that you have students who are protesting, right? You know, peacefully being targeted by the government, right? You know, I mean, that's that's like unthinkable. Um, you know, a year ago. Yeah. I know it's true. It's true. Well, from what I and I haven't done a ton of research into this. I just sort of came across this earlier and um apparently the beginnings of the kind of the the anti-aparttheid movement happened on universities in South Africa and that then began the now I'm sure there are people who can who are far more versed in the local uh sociological history than than I am. I just I I heard this in passing today because they were discussing this topic here of the you know disscent right which is what we're talking about and that the crack so they are actively cracking down on this now because that is the place where it's the birthplace of ideas right and so if you can stop the birthing the birthing of the ideas then the opportunity for them to spread is is decreased and so whether Whether you agree or disagree with what people are protesting, it is a right of the people here in this country to be able to do so. And one has to be very cautious as to wondering why it is that any idea should be snuffed out. Because if it is if it is meritless on its face, well then what what scarce what what is to be scared of? But if there is validity behind it, oh well then maybe there is something to be fearful over at that point. And I think anybody should ask that question. And again, some of this is going to play, you know, be the proconspiracy folks, right? They're going to say, "Yes, that's right. But if it fits, if the shoe fits, [...] it." Not literally, but I mean, you know, if it's a if it's a hot shoe, I guess it's your kink. You have a choice. You can wear it or you shoe. You're not judging. We don't we don't we don't we don't yuck anybody's yummy. If you got a foot fetish, I'm all, you know, good for you. As many shoes as you want. That's right. That is our That is our our motto. That's the We're getting some t-shirts printed. gonna go on this mug over here with this little icon. Yes. No, but I think I'm really happy. Talk about descent and agreement. I'm happy in the sense that in the sense that you know we all talk with one another, right? we're friends and you know I have conversations with Ryan or with you Daniel and you know and what I what I really find happening is we're all kind of finding our way to a similar overall thought process which is like if we watch what's happening now one of the ways of looking at this and I've been a little bit frustrated by it would be like well let's consider this issue and that issue or that issue over there but I don't I think that like misses the point of it you know I don't think it's like is this a good issue or that issue what's the government doing here? What's the government doing here? You know, I don't think that's what it's about. I think the whole question is about this. On the one hand, we've been trying to frame it in terms of like a cult thing, right? It's part of our diagnosis, but the other part is like a coup thing. There's an overall kind of power grab happening, right? And you know, as far as it goes, we can look at different ways of framing this. some of this is a certain kind of like religious nationalism or something driving a lot of this or we you know you know the different things that are happening that are driving this along but I mean I found that to be like it's I mean to get like philosophical it's almost like an AAM's razor thing you know we all know this but if people listening aren't familiar with this is like the most simple explanation maybe just the right one you know what you're really having is just like different power grabs and like different parts of uh the social fabric to just crush people who would do what the theme of this episode is, which is [...] dissent. And it's, you know, what you're saying, Daniel, right? Or maybe Ryan, both of you, like it's preemptive, right? We're going to preemptively crush dissents in the beginning, right? And we're not going to let it leak out. And it does. I mean, I'm it's nice talking this through with you both because it makes it all click. You know, if it doesn't take that much disscent to al to all to to make people start to like question if that's what the psycho psycho psych social psychology research says, you know, well, then we got to stop it beforehand. Mhm. Because in a certain sense, it's contagious, right? And you don't even have to agree with the people. Just the fact that they're dissenting already has a certain power to it. So, no, we're going to get you like a priority, you know, before you even have the chance to do it. And I think it's good just to call that what it is as opposed to debating, oh, what was the position on this thing or that thing or whatever. No, I think it's okay just to make that more sweeping statement. Call a thing what it is. And that's been kind of like the the, you know, the Chinese dynastic and PRC approach, right? is sort of like very severe punishment like you know for any sort of disscent like that's that's and and it's been successful sadly right you know um you just crush anyone and make the punishment so severe that you know they won't do it again and you you you go for the route you know you target the leaders and so forth and like that's that's a thing you know same has been in Russia I mean so it's kind of a playbook obviously right yeah it's a playbook And this is like maybe, you know, not as severe as like those two places, but it certainly has those hints of it, right? We're going to do this thing, right? And we it certainly is this sense of like, well, we know who our enemies are, so we're going to make sure we target them. And it's been like the simplest way to understand it. I know like we're getting to the end of this, but it's one of the things I've been trying to pay attention, you know, and I think for all of us, like our sense of like what we care about politics is here and what we care about spirituality is up. somewhere off the screen like our interest in spirituality is a lot more than our interest in politics across the board for all three of us. But, you know, if the situation gets [...] up enough, you feel like, well, I better pay attention to what's happening that we do this, try to make at least episodes that are somewhat helpful to help people think about it for themselves, you know, and come to their own conclusions ultimately. Try to be informative on some level. But, um, you know, what I found to be, yeah, again, like, you know, the most helpful is just to go through and say, "Yeah, let's look at what this over overall through line through is." Mhm. Well, yeah, we're diagnosing and as call it what it is as practitioners, you know, yes, we can treat symptoms, but sometimes then you end up chasing symptoms and that's kind of the thing of like, oh sorry, let me interrupt, but that's what it's felt like. Okay, here's this issue over here. Let's talk about that. That's a symptom. Here's an issue over here. Let's talk about that one. I mean, that's perfect language for it. Thank you for that. That was almost that's a symptom but there's an underlying disease and let's just and that's what we're that's what we're talking about is like not chasing the symptoms around because as a good practitioner regardless of the system that you're working within you want to si find out okay what is the root cause can we find a root cause is there on a western side is there an allergy you know to some food or some environmental toxin or is there is it an autoimmune thing like how does that manifest and is that why you're having all these weird things happening or you know in Chinese medicine we'll say we're not going to go into that because that's people don't understand that stuff but anyways looking for a deeper root cause one or two causes that then give these symptoms if you treat that you don't you know you don't you can treat the root then you don't have to treat the branch anymore and so that is essentially what we're trying to do is find and or highlight and then dissect essentially the deeper root causes as to what is occurring so that uh not every symptom has to be chased. Not every detail has to be looked at. And I'm not saying don't pay attention to the details. I'm just saying look past it a little bit. You know, if you're being attacked by a a swarm of bees, look, why are they attacking you? As opposed to saying, "I hate bees." Like, yes, you may not like them, but you also threw rocks at their hive. So, like now they're covered covered in honey or something like that. You're covered in like pollen. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's that's the point. And kind of like adding on to that is like if you chase symptoms, you are going to um and Eric's Eric's going to recognize the statement, you expend way too much energy, right? Um you you tire yourself out. Correct. Chasing these symptoms, right? And all the but you you're and you've missed it by the time you actually realize, oh, there's I I should have been treating the room. You're exhausted. Um, and the analogous thing would be like, why is the government doing this and why is the government doing that and why is the government doing this? Well, they're just trying to [...] seize control of stuff. They're just trying to obliterate their opposition, you know, and it, you know, at a certain point you can analyze like why this or that particular action, but the parsimony of the thing, the aams razor just says, okay, we're trying to wipe out everyone who might be our potential opposition and we're doing it in advance. I just found that that part I'm I'm like I feel like sort of a comfort that there's a certain agreement amongst us because I found that part to be a little bit difficult, you know, like let's debate whatever this action meant and let's debate whatever that action meant. You're like really, you know, it's just all part of an overall sort of strategy. You might as well just call it for what it is. It's a kind of a disease. It's a kind of a disease in a coup. Maybe what we're trying to do which is a little bit unique is also trace it back to like some underlying psychological thing. You know that there's an underlying sort of social psychology cult psychology. Oh, I think it's even simpler than that. It's called daddy issues. Big daddy come back to spank everybody that you don't like. Is that what they were? Is that the Mel Gibson thing? That was Yeah. Yeah. But but more importantly, you know, just like your own issues of of not I mean, you know, look, we've talked about this before, but we got and we'll wrap it up. Um, societal issues are independent issues increased exponentially, right? So, some a charismatic leader who has issues with their parents is going to manifest those issues in the realm that they find themselves in. And if you find yourself in a realm that you could influence society, then you are going to influence society with the issues that you obviously [...] have. It is like the daddy issues amongst the great leader. That's what you're saying. Yeah. But it's not just there's a multitude. It's a multitude. It's not It's not just a singularity. It is a it is a shared thing. People have trauma. People have psychological [...] that is unresolved. and instead of taking the time to resolve it, they're going to res they're going to they're going to be reactive to their own psychological processes and affect the world. So instead of changing myself, I'm going to change the world. So instead of putting shoes on my feet, I'm going to cover the entire ground in rubber, you know, so I could continue to walk barefoot. like the amount of trees and labor that that's going to take will far exceed that it would be for you to make some shoes for your own feet. So all I'm saying is make your own [...] shoes. Well, it's going to be an interesting one as we go forward because part of this is the idea like is this happening because there's personal trauma amongst the people in the country or is it happening because you'll get what I mean with this like especially Ryan and Daniel too we'll be talking about this over episodes or is it like a sociological and an anthropological thing where do you put your analysis at right is it individual vulnerabilities or is it or whatever you want to say or is it more like you set up a certain rules of the game and then people get forced into things, right? That's the Durkheim question too that we get and and I think you know both could be true. We've talked about this before where it's like um can't remember if I've talked with both of you about it but you know it's it's in anthropology like sometimes you do this thing where like you look at the micro because it's reflective of the macro, right? Um you know the individual will re will you know reflect these different notions in society. You know society will reflect these different notions which are embedded in the individual. You know you can small you can study small things and they represent larger societal norms. Um you know I think you know an interesting question to think about you know going forward is sort of what is it about you know present societies right not just the United States that make them so vulnerable. Um, and I think one of those things happens to be like there's there's really not a strong focus on any sort of meaningful um, actualization to use your your Carl Rogers term, right? You know, that makes people vulnerable, right? Because they haven't explored themselves, you know, and and kind of hit upon something else which I don't know if you guys have talked about this, but we may. It's like, you know, what is your identity rooted in? you know, um is it something that's that's, you know, ephirmal, you know, uh um is it something that's more solid? Is it something that has a history to it? Um you know, or is it just you know, you know, why is why is it that this these people can be influenced um so easily? Right. Yeah. Well, there's a good question and Eric, you want to say your final piece and we're gonna we're going to cap. Yeah. One of the things that I like uh again just to give props to both of you, one of the things I find very clarifying of this for me is that I do think that there's like sort of the social psychology and sociology parts where the structure of the thing starts to form the folks. Yeah, I I also love what both of you are saying in that like how do you start to break out of that kind of what you're bringing up Daniel you Ryan in your own way too is that you have to have some kind of individual identity that maybe partially getting over aspects of your own trauma that lock you in a box that don't allow you to break out as an individual and then the other side would be exploring myself enough where I have a a strong enough sense of my own self that I can like resist and then maybe part of the positive of that would be if this stuff is true on the social cycle level. The minute people start doing that, then that starts to crack things, which is sort of like, you know, my hope with this. Yeah. And you kind of need to like and that takes effort, right? And so when society is telling and putting all this pressure on you to do one thing, it takes a lot of effort and energy to do the opposite and certainly courage and courage, right? And that's discipline, regularity. It takes a long time. It's not a clear path. uh you know, you don't get results immediately and when you do it's hard to even say what it's from. And so then you want to give up and you're not quite sure where you're headed and there's no you know there's so many choices to what you want to learn and get into and how do you develop yourself and what does that even mean and people don't talk about it. You know it's just not a common it's not a common thing. You attach yourself to an ideology or your work or your family or whatever but like how much of that did you choose yourself? So yeah, it's it's a lot, but that's why we have these conversations and that's what we talk about and that's, you know, that's the benefit in doing what we do, you know. And just thinking about this, I know we're kind of ending this up, but like from Chinese medicine, you know, practitioners is sort of like, and when you were talking about that, Daniel, it just made me think of like our patients, right? And so they're like, well, where do I start? You know, what do I do? Like I have all these all these different things I could be doing. All these different things are wrong. And then our explanation is going to be like okay let's start simple let's cultivate this one thing first right and then from that you can grow that's right that's exactly right spread that's right and that's the that's the perfect start to spread yeah that's right and I think that's a place to end it start simple start simple yeah I I tell my clients people who are interested in you know they want to do some kind of internal reflection or meditation or something like this you know even for de-stress ressing, if you want to call it that. Uh they're like, "Well, give me some techniques or what, you know, what do I do?" I said, "Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. You just need to find a place in your house that you can do it first and then you sit in that place for like 3 minutes a day for the next week or two weeks. That's it. Just sit there or lay there or whatever. Just go there. That's your place. Start and find the place and then we'll start to put something in there. Clean it up. Maybe vacuum dust it. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like create the space for yourself. It doesn't have to be some elaborate thing. But then once you have that set for yourself, then you have a place to go. Now you at least have a spot to do it in. And this is simple enough to begin that you can start to like you got to till the soil before you could put the seeds in. Well, gentlemen, the last thing I would say is like dissent also in the episode. Descent, folks. Also this descent. Yeah. Well, uh, thanks for thanks for joining us, Ryan. really appreciate it, Eric, as always. Thanks for uh for for doing this. Uh you know, we're like uh solidly, you know, almost 5 years strong here. We'll be in July. So, uh we're you know, we're making our way to uh our I don't know what the 10 year anniversary is what, like silver and then 20 is gold. So, I don't know what's five years copper. Something like this. Some bronze. Bronze. Yeah. They're still good metals though. Don't you know I mean we're not going to we're going to brush them away. Uh but I don't know. Yeah. But uh as as always guys, thank you so much. This is this is really great. I I enjoyed our conversation. Audience, thank you so much for uh listening, watching, consuming, however you do, whether you're seeing the full episode. And if you do, your attention span is in the top 5% of the entire world. Congratulations. Uh and if you're just wa you know, seeing clips or whatever, you know, like, subscribe. If you have any questions for us as usual or comments or want us to cover something in in the uh you know in a podcast series, please hit us up at jyn and tantragmail.com. Follow us on the gram at the Jin and Tantonra podcast or leave a comment here in the YouTube comment section. Yes, do it. Do it all things. We don't care. Love, hate, and indifferent. It's all good. We we appreciate it. Uh and share our work if you find it useful or if you don't like it anyways, spam someone. That that also will we'll take that as well. Uh, for Ryan and Eric, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Fight the power.