[Music] hey phg and tear those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist So Daniel I our back were in the midst of kind of wrapping up this series of episodes that were inspired by Carl yong's answer to Joe and uh as we like to do in our little podcast we kind of took that that book explored parts of it but also used it as kind of like a stepping stone to talk about other things that seemed interesting uh Yung had a lot of his own experiences with his Christian upbringing and you know how ultimately that played out for him and uh I guess his own sort of transformations of himself as a Christian person into whatever he became afterwards and so we thought an interesting thing to do would be kind of share our own stories right um it was something that like had hit us and I I was sort of like okay I'll go first in this thing right and then I am interested here in Daniel's story you know uh my story is like a little bit more of a breakup story a little sad breakup story we can shed some tears about how Jesus and I broke up but then we got back together again in the way so I found Gnostic Jesus I actually don't know what Daniel's story is so if Daniel wants to share It ultimately at some point in his own episode I'm curious to hear his experience but anyways we're kind of talking about mine first I suppose and um and uh I I just like to say about it that it's a lot of it's like case studies you know when I think about what we're trying to do here at times we had different guests on like Daniel just recently had a guest on where the episode will be coming up soon and yeah we TR people to oh sorry yeah it's out yeah Dr Rory uh Hilt brand and that that's out that was the one that was previously published so you can oh okay I know Daniel and I were both on meditation Retreats over the sort of the Christmas New Year's holiday so I'm like just getting back on the world so um Okay cool so and and you know we try to get people to like talk about themselves their own experiences to share with people so we can all learn from each other and then sometimes we're the case studies so in this example I guess we're the case studies you know though I did talk with uh Ryan Davenport one of our anthropological exper experts right uh of the show uh I want to have Mary K on again too we were talking people have on so and people should have a a group of experts at their disposal to ask random questions so some people have like mechanics and you know uh chefs and artists uh we have anthrop olist a multitude of them you know I reach out all the time and go hey Ryan what up what up about this yeah yeah no legal counsel at all no medical counsel you know worthless no electrical engineering no Plumbing guys nothing like that you know but uh if you need an anthropologist well what you need in your life is those people overrated the Anthropologist is what you need yeah now Ryan's always there and of course Mary Kay Ryan is wonderful too you know so we have our anthropological like tag team um and you know maybe he'll want to come on and share his own thoughts about this but anyways we're the case studies and it's interesting because you know we're we're both clinicians and I think we think that way we think about yeah things through a case study filter my brother's kind of funny about it I can't remember if we talked about on the podcast before but he's definitely like don't turn me into one of your [...] case studies don't go and I'm like too late I'm already doing it with you you're way too late for that guy but it's also like don't go talking about me as if I'm one of your case studies I'm like okay I won I promise but it's how we look you at things you know so and we look at ourselves that way too and then hopefully in the sharing of the case study other people get a chance to like learn their own things from it I I think also in a in another way it's being an active student of life even if you're not a clinician because I I mean I talk about this with my patients I know that's coming from a perspective of a clinician but I really am trying to impress upon people the importance of taking your life as as your teacher you know yeah yeah yeah and that like it's it's so imperative of you to learn what to learn things as you go through them and you don't sometimes you're going through it it's hard to pull lessons out as you're doing it but when it's over and you people generally know when something is over or at least there's a a logical stopping point that you have to reflect upon that in order to to glean things from it so that you could learn at least for yourself if not for other people you know when you're sharing and sometimes you're sharing just by living you're sharing just by being in the presence of other people and having your life experiences come forth so um outside of being a clinician just being a human being and learning for from our our own experience is something that like I think is really important you know and I and you know we try not to like be preachy in that way but that's one of the things that I I say so often in the clinic I feel like I might as well just say it here too well I love the idea of like the guru is like four different things I think that's one of the most helpful ways I've heard of talking about that as opposed to isn't just making it a person right yeah and we've had this in different episodes but you know it's it's it's the people who are your teachers but it's also you know the books that you read right and it's also you know your life experiences is one of them right and then lastly your own kind of spirit or your own Shen or your own Buddha nature right I found that to be the most helpful way to talk about that Daniel and that fits right into that to my mind right yes yeah I try to remember that idea you know I think it's a powerful way to frame that thing who are your teachers what your life experience will be when your major teachers right you know as important as the people right of course those are important too yeah I mean on that note that's this is life experience we're trying to share yeah and it's interesting is you're talking about uh you know looking at how what happens in your life and looking at like maybe periods of transition and that's like that actually does segue perfectly into this so I guess we'll Segway right you could say maybe I've done this before well literally this episode we' recorded before we've tried to record it for the first time when Daniel is on Retreat and then there were technical difficulties there were technical difficulties so and I had to laugh about it you know we were talking about before we started recording and I'm like one of the things you have to like for people who know and love Daniel like me and other people know him he'll never do two things the same way twice there's just no [...] way he's never gonna do it he refuses and uh even if we did like 10 minutes I was like that was great but let's do that again Daniel just immediately you get 45 seconds in he's like he's purposely gonna run it off in some other direction because he likes the spontaneity yeah you know he likes to feel the spontaneity and uh so I was like okay I know what Daniel's gonna say about this one we recorded it once he's probably gonna say totally different things probably so there's no there there was no point in in me even thinking okay Daniel said this last time maybe I'll say this about it nah no GNA go some other place with it that I could never predict which is the beauty of it right yeah um all right so okay so me is the case study like what's my what's my should it be my breakup story with Jesus only temporarily we found each other again in a new form separation Jes comes in Jesus comes in so many forms you just find there's not enough we had an episode about it right all the different way people see Jesus so but anyways um uh uh I I wanted to bring up some of the points that I thought were important kind of like what you're talking about and I kind of looked through it and I went well okay there's a couple of major things I'd like to just suggest ask people to think about and one of them was this idea of these kind of Windows of transition where you find yourself in some period of your life where you're genuinely changing and I was definitely in you know my own thing where I was re-evaluating my whole uh Christian upbringing and things like that and and really kind of breaking up with it breaking up is hard to do but we had to do it um it was like during my undergrad days and it was this very specific window of transition kind of idea so I just wanted to throw that out that out to people it's interesting to look at your life and see one of those kind critical moments when you really change you know and sometimes those changes are coming from within and sometimes they're coming from without for me in this time it was a little bit of both and I'll try to explain it at least as we go through I wanted to throw that idea out to just be aware of that I think those are really important you know yeah yeah yeah this is something that has been coming up actually quite a bit um for me in the CL in clinical practice and with with friends as well and I have been using because it came up when I was taking this this class on like Five Element theory about the transition between and you know we've talked about this a little bit last time with with uh Dr Rory and then obviously you and I have talked about this but the transition between the metal element and the water element and you know we could say that like the natural cycle of thing that's kind of like the the metal element in this case is representing like the the sort of physical body the corporeal body and the the water element is like the seed so it's it's the end of a cycle and the beginning of a new one and they'll say that's logical transition you know from when something is finished like if you want to take a meta example you could look at fall and and the natural kind of world around us that plants are you know sort of dying off they're yielding the last fruits and vegetables for the summer for the you know fall root vegetables and then after that the things are dying they're retreating back inside only to come back out in the springtime and much like this we have some kind of similar I guess aspects of our own life in in growth and letting go and so on and so forth but that transition between one period to the next especially when you're letting something go and then you're moving back in and then budding new seed or new leaves and and turning into a you know coming from a seed turning into a new plant is a Crossroads actually and it's a really important point because you're letting go not only of things that that are no longer serving you but then you're drawing energy back in so that that can be deeply put into the ground and then growing into something brand new or growing into something of a newer version of what you were before and for plants that's a cyclical process but for us human beings who have a a psyche and a Consciousness we often don't do it with awareness it's just something that kind of happens and so as you're pointing out when when people can kind of look back and reflect on their life and say what was important to me at that point and what what changed I think it gives you practice to do that then moving forward when you have a new opportunity to change right even if you're just doing it during the seasons like a spring cleaning or something like that you could also take that opportunity and make changes when you change relationships when you change jobs when you move when you have a life some kind of a life change a health scare uh whatever the case is if you could enter it into it consciously then the outcome will be I think exponentially different because you're not allowing it to just happen to you but you're bringing with it things that you want to manifest on the other side I don't always use that word but I'll I'll use it here because I think it's apropo Eric you're muted so you have to unmute yourself I like uh I had to clear my throat as I used to say right yeah uh and uh so I muted that up but uh I do like a lot of lecture on Mondays and Tuesdays recording on a Tuesday so anyways there's a feeling to it like you know there's maybe something about recognizing like oh this is one of those little periods where things could go potentially in a lot of different directions and just to recognize oh I'm in one of those windows it's kind of a big deal and it gets into what you're talking about the energetic feeling of the five phases or something too like there's they have a quality to them yeah I guess there's a chess metaphor here too my son plays a lot of Chess you know and the great chess player Gary Kasparov said there's a moment in the chess game where you realize oh this is the moment so he and I with my son talk about his games and stuff I say where's the Kasparov moment in this game you know realize oh this is where things could possibly go in all kinds of different directions this is the moment right and I almost feel like I know in the spiritual things like dosm and tanton and in the these things they they they want you to sort of recognize that feeling almost you know like get it as a feeling you know you know it intellectually but you can also like there's an intuitive feeling sense to it too and maybe this is one of the times when I was like maybe first starting to recognize that fully or something I don't know we reflecting back on it but um yeah so I wanted to bring that thing up the other thing that was happening was I was during my undergrad days the other thing that was happening was I was getting my head trunk with my psych Mentor Dr Michael schner who is such a wonderful person to me and he's come up in different episodes along the way yeah and that was sort of a big deal too and like thinking back I was thinking you it's it's to go through that process there's a lot of feelings of like disorientation potential confusion because and it makes sense because essentially well on the one hand a lot of times you're reliving very painful events and that's disorienting yeah I can remember leaving sessions with Michael and like going to catch the you know the subway in Chicago outside of his office and just feeling like I feel like just completely almost like depersonalized or just like my my Consciousness is so changed I can't even like I can't even find my normal self as I'm sitting here waiting for the train to come it was like that strong because sometimes you're talking about the most painful things you ever been through yeah I was just gonna say that I think they they also call that like a vulnerability hangover I haven't heard that phrase but I guess that makes sense yeah yeah you're just like you're you're exposing I I don't I don't know if exposing is a right word but you're admitting or confessing actions and not just actions but the psychology behind the actions so you're really very bare you know but that's that's good though because that's what you want I think that's what you want to do if you're still hiding even in that moment then it's going to be very difficult to unpack the reasons for which you chose things or you know whatever that whatever you're working on at that time and I think afterwards you feel a little bit like you're you know like like you're showing somebody the in the best you can the inner workings of yourself and they're responding to that yeah it's a really strange place to be in and I mean in a weird way I think sometimes in these episodes we try to do this right we try to go these spes where it's like okay here's a vulnerable spot let's go there you know yeah and that there's something healthy about that for yeah all of us to see that in one another it certainly makes you realize other people are coming from those same kind of places of vulnerability right yeah the other part about it though that really hit me was that hopefully what's happening is you're deeply questioning yourself and probably deconstructing yourself you know and that's disoriented you know in a way you know if you think about it through like our Carl Rogers filter or something you're like deconstructing your self-concept as you're going through that process and you know what the new self-concept is going to be like it sometimes isn't not obviously clear you could revert back to old things or you could explode into new things right yeah so you're in this kind of crazy place where you're really pulling down your old ideas of who you are and and probably in a very real way the actual old thing that you were you're probably taking it apart and that's pretty disorienting so I was definitely feeling a lot of that kind of stuff um it occurred to me that this isn't always talked about in this way though maybe I'm wrong about that but I don't think people talk about like how disorienting and confusing that is yeah so I just want to bring it up for other people who are going through psychological stuff because there a number of people who are going through and they're seeing psychologists and going through these things and you can feel pretty disoriented the same taking apart the old ideas of who you are it's very similar when you are on Psych actually and that's why it's really important to do them with people who know how to hold space you know who are very sensitive to those kinds of things but even without that even for people who aren't into that if you do a a a good or you have a a deep experience during a Meditation Retreat you can also do that because you are sort of deconstructing some of yourself as well and you and I have talked about this a couple times when people return back from these either events or or Retreats or whatnot it takes some time to reassimilate back with your partner back into your your sort of normal life because you are You're vulnerable in a different way your energy has definitely shifted and so you know just to kind of I don't know keep it in mind when if you're doing sort of self-work uh that it's not just a uh you make progress but you do have to kind of reintegrate yourself back into your life because you are changing you're changing you are a little bit yeah we were talking about just you know with our own individual Retreats we went on we were talking about a little bit that before we started recording and one of the things I was saying was like I don't know if I can talk about this yet because I'm still sort of processing it and you and I know each other very well we talk about a lot of these things that we experience but I it's kind of more unusual but I was like now I'm it's gonna take me a little bit Yeah to really think of what this means for me and obviously you were very cool about that you understood right of course yeah um also on the psychedelics thing it was around this time we did an episode way back in the the beginning where we kind of went through some of our psychedelic experiences I talked about my little asset experience and that was around this time too and I couldn't remember if this was pre or post this particular part of my life but it was somewhere in that same window of time part of what you talking about earlier was that I was also in the transition around my relationship status i' had been with the same person for seven years I had talked about our relationship and some of what to me were some of the really important episodes we did at least for me personally and I hopefully resonated with people too where I really talked about our relationship kind of opening up in a different way that I wouldn't have expected and my realizing okay I can be okay with a different way of thinking about how love and relationship looks and I learned a lot from her through that yeah but we were sort of at this particular winter time I was very but we were probably both going through our own trips right we're all on our own on our own trips as ROM dos might say and uh you know uh we were opening and closing and breaking up and all kinds of stuff like that was happening so you that's obviously a major transition point right to be with somebody for a long period of time like that um in chines messon sometimes we talk about this with the the wood phase talking about the Chinese medical ideas right and the idea of like planning and decision-making having to do with the wood energies of the spring right the movement of where things are going to go and uh sometimes they talk about the wind there too with those phase energies so it's very windy too you don't know where the winds are going to blow right and sometimes there's a lot of these winds kind of blowing around so anyways this was the space and I wanted to just bring it up because it's transition times right and maybe it's like recognizing that thing and then the other thing I wanted to have about it too related to that idea was the sort of epiphanous moments because for me it was very interesting like my particular transition with you know Christianity happened pretty suddenly in a strange way so I just want to bring up those very strong unique moments and I know you and I both have feelings about that you know Daniel but you know that moment when bang something really happens and maybe recognizing that and I think a lot of times you get those moments and then they FP past you for sure you know you don't really fully get the meaning of it but in this case it's stuck you know like something happened that obviously like had a place where it was going to go but I I do think that's something to be aware of like those whole Windows of time but also those individual unique moments where bang something happens kind of out of the blue and so this hit me like pretty pretty strongly um I had like carried I I wasn't like an anti-christian or Catholic person we've talked about that too in different episodes I had good experiences in the church too we had one priest who was a little bit dangerous to the boys I'm not going to lie about that either there was one priest who I remember at one point Sorry for to my brother but this happened to him but he tried to get him to go out to some Cabin in the Woods to do some special spiritual training and my brother was like no no thank you and you know um so I wasn't it was there were moments where some of the bad parts did show themselves but I had like good experiences too and I and I think maybe it's same for you I didn't have a bad feeling about Christianity in in any you know deep way I had good mixed feelings but I had good feelings too you know and I had things that I felt I thought I felt like I had learned but in this particular one instance I was uh living in this area of Chicago called Little Italy I was in undergrad and uh I was going through this time of all this sort of tumultuous change and I was walking it it's so specific you know it hit me um as I was prepping this episode I was walking out of my little back bedroom in this apartment we had in Little Italy and I can remember the distinct moment which is strange because a lot of times you don't remember that specifically you'd have more sort of a general feeling right it was very specific specific I can I was walking through and I had like a dresser and a little doorway and then something just hit me where I was like I don't think I believe in this Christianity thing anymore and it happened in the way that it wasn't about even doubts about God or Jesus or something it was more and this goes into things we were talking about in the episodes last year a little bit it was more like I don't think this whole way of thinking about love and relationships is right or at least it isn't right for me can't judge it for other people but I realize like no this isn't right this isn't right for me at least I personally don't believe in this so you kind of uh had this idea that Christianity in the way that it is taught was more of like a monogamous relationship and your reframing of relationships thereby reframed your relationship with their view of religion it that seemed to happen you know like and I saw that as like well that's interesting I don't feel like that's right for me and sometimes when you're saying it's not right for you you mean it's not right but I mean at least I can say it's not right for me and I was like okay this isn't right for me I don't believe in this personally and like all of a sudden it all started to like just I'm making like little emotions with my fingers here to try to show this but it was like it just all started to like crumble apart out of this which is know I wanted to share the story because it's a strange way for something to fall apart right you know I got interested in history of the New Testament and and biblical scholarship at some point pre pandemic and there's a whole like subculture of people who have broken up with organized religion Christianity right and then they become really atheist and it's usually about other stuff you know it's not about this you know so it was kind of an interesting like not like doesn't seem like it's a typical story you know usually it's more like I believe more in science and so I don't believe in these things anymore like that's a typical story right A lot of people go very sort of sciency but that wasn't the issue for me it wasn't like I even became an atheist exactly or something I was just like no I just don't think this is right and again it like if I look back on it it's funny because I don't even remember what I was thinking about beforehand it just just was like bang I just had this thought you know like something in like more like a lifestyle thing more than anything else like what you were saying Daniel it was more like okay I just don't believe in this way of living this way of being in the world there it's not right for me somehow and I I guess I'll have to search for something different and that seemed to be what happened and um I suppose I had my own like various kind of personal reasons around this I definitely had looked at like the lives of the people around me growing up and been like they don't look that great you know a lot of the relationships didn't look that great I talked with my mom about this episode my mom's now 83 or actually she's 84 she just transitioned over Capricorn oh you Capricorn people Daniel's Capricorn too um and so um she had um said like oh you know I spent my whole life like struggling with your father and I laughed because my mom would like to joke about such things now it all seems funny in retrospect but she was like what the hell I spent my whole life like struggling with this impossible man and I was like yeah I know I know Mom and we have funny conversations because I will say like well your next life rethink this do this a little different you know not that I want you gone who knows how much you got you could get another 10 years out of this body you know what I mean but like you're processing it out now and yeah we kind of laugh about it my mom doesn't have spiritual beliefs almost at all so for her it's kind of just funny but I'm like no remember this make your shin remember this um but like was interesting because it was sort of a movement to like the kind of view of the world that I was trying trying to share in our episodes you know last year which were kind of important to me which was I was moving to like what would be like I would consider to be my more my more mature version of how I think about things for myself which would be yeah I think it's fine to live more than one person I think there's something totally natural about that and I felt like okay at least the way it was presented to me obviously the the Catholicism that I was growing up with didn't like that idea for sure right definitely against it and I was like I guess I'm In conflict with this and uh so I don't think I believe in this anymore and uh and that was it now I had mentioned in the previous time we recorded this that there is something interesting about that because when I got interested in the the scholarship around the New Testament there was a thing called the Jesus seminar which who knows what that could even sound like what that would even mean seems like it might be something you do like at the hotel at the Hiatt up at the airport or something right that's exactly right someone will charge you too much money to see if you can do the G Jesus seminar and then make a bunch of real money in real estate or something that's right that's how in the process but actually it was a meeting of biblical Scholars so they had like the top biblical Scholars I think in the world all get together and per you know our episode what did you call it like not enough jesuses or something how did you call it not enough Jesus's Jesus is like they were really trying to figure out okay since there's so many different versions of who this person is can we all get together as Scholars and figure out is there any quotes or things that we can get from this person that will'll all vote that we agree is historically accurate you know and uh one of the ones that they agreed upon was Jesus saying that you shouldn't get divorced and and uh you know looking back on that I was like well I certainly I thought divorce was fine you know so I thought my parents really should have done it so I was fine with that you know um though they never did but I was like yeah when you really look at it I you you know if that's what they can say the historical Jesus might have likely said a lot of us probably don't agree with that now you know right so in our own ways maybe were all had broken up in different ways because obviously now divorce is something that we think is totally legit thing to do and and uh yeah if it's really bad between people it's probably for the best right right but that wouldn't be true for the real Catholic people I knew like my grandma would never do that no matter how difficult my grandpa was he was not an easy man um uh though he had his Charming qualities too but you know she would never do that because it would be anti- Catholic you right so it's a weird little spot to like you know if it's it was it was like what is the game game Jenga where you build the Tower of the blocks or something right yeah that that's the Jenga piece that topples the whole Tower is like kind of randoom but that's how it was for me right and it was you know it was you know part of this you know very particular window of my life and it probably is I've listened to people kind of tell their deconversion stories or whatever and there's a number of really famous ones amongst the scholars of Christianity it it's not a typical one it just happened because I was disagreeing with the lifestyle or something you know rather than not believing metaphysically that there could be a God because I still thought there could be a God right or actually not having a bad feeling about Jesus because I did have a good feeling about Jesus at least what I would ultimately find to be the Jesus that I believed in which we talked about in previous episodes it wasn't that it was something else and then I think it was weird for me then because then a Cascade of a whole bunch of other things seemed to hit me because it was kind of a full load of kind of questioning and doubt that started to appear retrospectively I kind of look at it as like my more true spiritual identity kind of evolving out right you know and um and it was trying to do that over time so it wasn't like just that cultural piece that fell apart for me the part about relationships and love and my feeling like no I think it's okay you know in your life you might find that you love more than one person and I don't think that's anything to feel bad about or ashamed of right right um and that kind of was a piece but then like other parts of things started to fall apart as well and looking back I kind of think about it with some of the Yung conversations we had as we've been doing these episodes that have been sort of related to yung in different ways where I think he went through those experiences too where pieces pulled things apart it's also kind of like you can believe that like various other spiritual Traditions you can love them also and at least maybe and and I'm certainly not as well versed in the the history of the judeo-christian practice but from what I do know there is much to do about I Am the Only God you know this is the one this is the one I am the one there are no others and that you know again if we're using um the uniqueness and exclusivity principles was the Esther Perell ideas that we had like yeah that like your unique view of relationships at that time then began to Foster your unique view of spiritual practice at that time do you know what say yeah it was okay to do Zen now or something and I didn't have to feel bad about it or something you yeah and and I think you know I mean I I'm I'm wondering now as we're doing this for the second time I mean things always happen for a reason but like it's actually a really deep kind of correlate the way that you we could we can use that the relationship idea you know and sort of superimpose it onto people's you know spirituality and that like you can have various loves in your life and not have an issue with it we talked about this you know at length in in 23 on on the podcast here yeah with relationships and whatnot but even with like your own your siblings or your children or you know even ex-girlfriends or boyfriends or whatever you were da like you know you don't feel bad because you love somebody and you're no longer with them hopefully you learn from them via your life experience you know whatever but why would that not be the same for one's own spiritual life too yeah I had that thought too it's interesting you're bringing it up because like I was using the same metaphor because at some point I had to break up with Zen I never really fully broke up with Zen but I was doing the Zen training I was thinking about this during the retreat uh our minds sometimes work in parallel uh it's almost like we've been doing this podcast for a bit uh but like uh I was thinking yeah at some point Zen was good for me I learned a lot yeah but at some point there was kind of like a martial arts quality to it which was very valuable to me in the beginning it helped build up sort of a core strength in my character sure you know uh that was helpful you know and like the ability to handle obstacles and develop a certain kind of will you know all the good things that the martial arts can do because the martial arts are have great qualities right but they wanted me to take on this role of like the retreat ass kicker who's yelling at everybody and like you know and like enforcing the hard tough laws and the retreat and there's a role of that in the Zen tradition thei Jitsu they call it and I was like no I can't do this gig this isn't right for me this isn't going to fit my personality and there's all that pressure to do it and so I ended up breaking up with Zen and it meant a lot to me and I remember the first time I didn't go on Retreat I was a little heartbroken you know but I was like okay this isn't right I'm G have to move on and find something different I think I was like writing some music or something to distract myself or something I remember very specifically like people on Retreat and I'm not there and I've been on every Retreat for the last three years but you you brought up a point about reminding your mom to remind herself in her next life not to be with ju you know kind of like one difficult person that you can be Freer to do as you wish but like that was kind of a deep thought you know like okay listening to ourselves you know or following what we believe to be as true for our life path that could very easily be our Spirits our souls our selves some aspect of it talking to us saying this ain't right for you for various reasons because that's not part of this path you already done that you know yeah yeah yeah open it up open it up a little bit and and let it roll so you know I'm not saying that those you you necessarily have to have you can have one partner your whole life and have a variety of spiritual leanings that's you know they're not like related but we're you know as we're kind of like coming to the sort of tail end of the relationship stuff it does seem to fit and and especially in the the episode that that you know we're kind of doing this case study on you in that particular time period it does seem to fit and I think it's important even if you choose to be monogamous in your relationship or monogamous in your spiritual practice that's fine but it really should be your it should be a conscious choice not something that you do out of default that's really what we talked about off mic with this stuff too there should be freedom of choice to choose what works best for you and not feel like you're forced into something right yeah yeah for me I had like I wanted to bring up the Yung quote again and I I don't have it in front of me which is kind of stupid but I'll paraphrase it it was one of the ones that we talked about in the previous episode where he had said to be normal is the ideal aim of unsuccessful people that's correct and I had seen it on a t-shirt where it said to be normal is the ideal a of mediocre people which is a kind of a spicy quote um but it's by definition it's kind of true so I always thought that was kind of clever but when I saw the longer quote the point he's more making is that and it's something we've talked about before that there's kind of people are in different spaces in their life right yeah yeah yeah and it's almost like there's a like a type one type person and they're struggling just to find their way in the world right maybe they're wrestling with uh you know psychological problems maybe they're wrestling with uh uh you know severe financial difficulties maybe they come from a dangerous environment you know where they're trying to work their way out of something that was very difficult like it's it's that kind of a head space right and what Yung goes on to say is it's for those kinds of folks their goal is to become a society successful person in the sense that they can be a type two person right get out of those difficulties and being something that's more stable and more secure right so when I saw the longer quote I'm like oh this is a much more compassionate quote you know he's basically saying that for those people even as clinicians that's the proper goal for that person right to get themselves into that head space but then he goes on to say that um as you go through if you're one of those type two people a lot of times that can become what he calls like a procrustean bed which is based on some old Greek myth where there was this son of Poseidon and he's a no he's a horrible character who like would take people and imprison them in this bed that he had made and then um if the person was too long he'd cut the body parts off and make them fit right if they were too short he'd put them and stretch their bones out and break them to make them fit so he says I think it's from his clinical practice he said for some people if they're not really a type two person that will start to be that for them that'll feel forced and uh and then he says you're going to have a lot of like unhappiness that will grow out of that you know you'll have a lot of anxiety a lot of Despair a lot of misery he says they're pretty strong in the quote you'll be you'll be drowning in a sea of hopelessness or something like I don't know that might be a strong language but you know it won't feel good right it'll feel bad you know and I I I think on some level I was becoming aware of that too I saw like an interconnectivity thing was starting to clarify for me at this time which I guess I Associated back with like tro Christian culture or something for me that kind of like coester around that idea where okay there are different types of people and I kind of sense that there's a type one fear that runs through the culture you know that we're all afraid of maybe dropping out the bottom you know and it's a real fear yeah right yeah because it's a harsh culture right as we talked in previous episodes in a certain sense it's Saturn's culture you know if you want to look at it that way right it's harsh you can fall off the bottom certainly in America maybe if you're in like Scandinavia it's not gonna be like that you know any of our listeners who are Finn you can clarify that for us for for our finish section of the audience because I think their stuff is easier but you know like you get more social safety net but there's nothing here in the United States potentially you might just fall straight through the bottom yeah and people feel that and they're afraid and I started to sense like yeah I I somehow this all fits together culturally there's there's a sort of a maybe a more standard life that I was identifying with sort of a judeo-christian culture or something but it was also like American culture and the way that coales together and this thing okay I want the security of like a type to life because I'm afraid with reasons to be afraid you know and so I kind of got well things are like tempting me here a little bit um where like for my father he would have me go to work in Corporate America like he said that's what I should do right even though he was pretty miserable he explained he was miserable every day he still thought it was the safest thing to do and he had grown up without money he had grown up in public housing he was afraid and I guess on some level he was probably afraid for me too you know sure and he thought you know this is what you should do which was a terrible idea for me i' like I'd rather just like jump off the building I wouldn't be able to do it you know I had friends who did it and I was like how the [...] do they do this you know but of course I realized for them that it isn't that big of a deal it's right for them you know or at least it doesn't bother them in the same way would bother me but I was feeling that thing and like I realized if I did that was because I would be afraid right and I felt something about that in relationships too that a lot of the relationship had a lot to do with like security and trying to establish some kind of security when we were doing our big episodes in 2023 I talked with people about this and underneath there was a lot of that conversation actually that part of what was driving them in their uh choices of who they were with and why they were living what they were living and their life was fear you know uh and this fear of like the way Yung is talking about falling through the bottom or something like that being genuinely afraid of that and like and it's a fear I can empathize with like I understand it's not unreal but I was like yeah I think that's like you know what I was thinking at the time was I think that's probably what's motivating a lot of this you know that there's a need for security and you find it through a certain kind of way of work and a certain kind of way of building a stable something for yourself so you don't feel as vulnerable and afraid I had like multiple people I talked about where that when you got to the bottom that's kind of what they were saying you know their lives were chaotic their lives were unstable and then like the stability of this type two thing was what they needed you know and that stabilized them and those were some pretty powerful conversations I had with people I was like okay I understand I understand where you're coming from related but slightly not I was listening to uh a iian earlier and he said that he likes to tell now granted this is a comedian saying this during his standup so you know you got to take with the gr Sal but he tells all the women he dates that uh he was homeless a year ago because now when they come over and see his you know one-bedroom studio apartment and his Toyota Corolla they believe that he's doing bet much better in life and he's on upward trajectory you know that's funny but it but it it does highlight the point that like that's not he's reached the Bottom Rung of the type two existence so now he can like show it off right yeah but like that's not that that that's believable you know that like my teacher Andre will say every joke is a half joke and so he probably wasn't this is a joke that he's telling but like it's believable to people because you would say oh if you were homeless a year ago and now you have a studio apartment and a you know a 15-year-old Toyota Corolla you're doing pretty good you know but like yeah the fact that you could even wrap your mind around somebody making that transition is not impossible to Fathom you can go no it's it's it's realistic it could be something that could happen to somebody right I was thinking about like country music with this because my daughter and I were talking about one well I'm not I'm not a big country music person yeah shocker but uh uh there's one country song um Tennessee whiskey which I think is really good you know and it's by this guy guess Chris Stapleton so if anyone knows country music you might know the track but I was thinking about you know that is like the Trope of the country song too you know I was a drinker and I was you know all messed up and then I met my sweetie and then she straightened me out and now I'm like a good Christian man you know that's a country music staple and I you know we were I think when she came back from France we were kind of bsing around and we were we both like this song you know it's a real simple song but like it's kind of it's a great song you know for a country song you know and uh uh even though if you're not a crunch music fan and uh good coolit work too play guitar so I was like this is good guitar play anyways I was thinking about the lyrics of that and I was like yeah that's the type one type two story you know and a lot of stories are like that once you develop an eye for it you start to realize oh this is a type one type two story this is the story of the person who's down and out they meet the right person this relationships Picks Them Up and stabilizes them into this type two thing it's like it's a it's kind of like a cultural Trope you know and once someone points it out you're like H okay yeah a lot of stories are like that right where it's the it's the type two lifestyle that stabilizes the personal but I think at the time I was also getting that what Yung was saying the Greek god bed thing like that was becoming clear to me and I was like oh man for me this is going to feel like that uncomfortable bed you know uh but I also could feel the fear of it you know so if I go back retrospectively you know which what we're doing all of this is retrospectively but thinking it back on it I could also then I look back and I look at like really how dangerous it all was in a psychospiritual sense for me which is one of the other major points I wanted to make in the case study and people will find their own stuff in this I mean we listen to other people's lives we come to our own conclusions but for me looking back I was definitely like there's a lot of things that probably needed to happen sure for me to become who I really am right uh the version of myself now that I actually like I like and like you know I'm happy that I got to the place where where I am uh with it's ups and downs of course but you know I do feel like I got to someplace where I feel good about it you know and uh and it was there was a real danger that all these events might not have unfolded if I hadn't maybe faced these things in the moment or something a lot of things that maybe should have happened wouldn't have happened um you were talking about earlier about almost what reminded me of the yion sense of individuation like recognizing things and getting ahead of them yeah don't let the karma kick you in the ass jump out ahead of it right yeah start running ahead you know uh and like that kind of thing recognizing like okay Yung talks about indiv individuation getting ahead of the process so the process is going to go anyways you know and yung's view whether you're a willing participant or not this Train's going in this direction you can either hop on the train or you can get hit in the front and the train will carry you along you know but you're going to you know you're going to have to like it's better to be on the train and um he makes an interesting point with that so when I reflect back on that I think wow that's really kind of terrifying for me to reflect back and realize oh that could have gone another way in this weird little window where so much was in flux and there was like it was one of those like little Quantum stories or something right Like Anything could happen you know out of that particular sea of probabilities or something and U and it's kind of like scary for me to look back on and it's also kind of compassion generating too for me because you know we all go through these windows right right they're not easy but you know in the end I was supposed to become you know from my point of view of myself more of this like Zen Buddhist doist Sufi Buddhist tantrica person that was the trajectory right that was where the train was heading uh and you know and it could have gotten blocked or confused or you know the the tracks could have gotten like uh messed up and I could have been heading something someplace completely different which I mean I look back on and I'm like wow that's kind of scary retrospectively cuz specifically what was happening and I'll explain a little bit more was in there's relationship I had with this person she was like transitioning back and she was really pushing us to be like okay now it's time for us to settle down and have kids and do all these things right yeah now that I'm good yeah she had decided that and I was kind of like I I had been I hadn't done as much of the open relationship stuff that we had been talking about I was like more accepting of her she needed those experiences you know and so that was me trying to show her the love interestingly enough just as a little sidebar on this I was talking with my daughter about this because it came up with my son my son is starting to realize oh my dad thinks about things a little bit differently he's starting to pick up on this he's a perceptive person and I was talking to my daughter and she she was like oh yeah he's picking up on all this stuff and they watched this show together that's a British show called sex education and um so one of the phrases that use on the show is like we're ethically non- monogamous so sometimes I would listen to two of them talking and they joke about that phrase I'm ethically non monogamous I'm ethically non monogamous as like a little BRZ phrase in the show and so my son was kind of alluding to this stuff a little bit and I was like interesting because I've never said anything exactly to him about it but he's picking up on The Vibes I think because whenever there's a romc we watching or something and someone X jealous I always like pause the video and go that's a mistake be a jealous person don't be a possessive person they're showing you this like it's a good emotion it's a Buddhist claa now we can watch to see what happens to you know Ryan Reynolds in this next scene watch what watch what attachment does to you yeah this is gonna mess your [...] up and my daughter was like oh yeah he's having some sense around this so he was bringing this question up he was asking me about this kind of stuff and I was I told him the story that I had told in our episode in 2023 where you know this woman I love came to me and said hey I think I need to have the freedom to Explore More with other people it's not like I don't love you and I said okay and I kind of talked about George Harrison doing that with Eric clapt and not and all that so I told the story to my son and his reaction was really interesting because I got to the point of like you know George Harrison did this thing for his wife and his friend you know and he was just like yeah that's the right thing to do like it was perfectly obvious to him you know yeah what else would you do and I was like interesting you know so I don't know if that's a gen Z thing or a him thing or whatever that is you've you've been dropping subtle hints for a while now Eric so maybe not that subtle but no he's like he's like he didn't he just looked like well obviously you know like what if you say you love someone else what else would you do and I was like okay from the mouths of babes um uh so anyways I looked back at that and I was it was a there was in a very real kind of American sense it could have been like you know we had a deep attachment between us I had a lot of feelings for her and vice versa and we could have like gone to that place I could really easily imagine that happening yeah a lot of influence you know when you're really you love someone so much they affect you so much you kind of can get carried along with them a little bit and so what was interesting in this little time period for me was I was questioning okay who am I what do I really think about all this stuff and uh there was this kind of thing happening between she and I where it was like well this could really go to this much more um type two place you know using our terminology of the show where it would have been you know a marriage and kids and all these things and it would have been so bad it would have been so wrong for me right I mean you don't know that but uh retrospectively I know it for sure sure like that would have been really wrong you know and uh uh not that it can't be right for other people but for me right wrong you know like very b a capital letters bad um and but it was like something that was kind of sitting there as a thing to do and I I realized wow that's kind of scary to think back at that then retrospect you know but I also could see it was driven around a lot by the kind of things we were talking about these sort of fears and insecurities and these kinds of things right it would be interesting to see uh a documentary of an alternate reality where you did that you know yeah yeah yeah yeah and and but I feel like you'd be a completely different person yeah but I mean that's kind of interesting question because like would like the natural currence of my particular personality still want to be pushing out right yeah and my theory is yeah and so there would have been a lot of strife between us you know and I start thinking like God if there would have been kids involved Wes you know right so um so that was a part of the thing I was I and I I guess the point I'm trying to make is I recognize that problem right I sat there and I said wow this is a real problem I have a lot of attachment to this person I love her very very much she has a very strong influence on me and you know sometimes when it's like that they you can get pulled along for sure in another person's momentum and I was like ah this isn't right I better I recognized that thing and I looked back and I said oh that was smart like the reason in the end that we that thing really ended from my point of view from my side was oh yeah she's gonna pull me into this place and she's never going to let me do this Zen thing there's just no [...] way in hell she's gonna let me do that I was graduating from my undergrad thing soon right and it was getting pretty obvious said I was going to go and study Zen for multiple years and I wasn't going to grad school and I was going to do something different right and that there was no way in hell she was going to let that happen so I mean for me I guess the moral of that as we look at as a case they was like really thinking deeply about who you're with right really thinking deeply about it right right yeah okay what's your trajectory what's this person's trajectory are you heading to the same place right and that's a thing for me you're you're very adamant about you know your relationships and and how they deeply deeply affect your your life and your being so to be very conscious about who you choose to spend your time with but what do you think about that I mean my basic and we'll we'll see what how we evaluate this for both of us but I feel like in watching people the way people are affected by their significant others is huge yeah I mean just as a clinical observation you know outside of my own personal feelings about this I mean it's a big deal and you'll probably end up growing more more like this person you're going to go and end up more like they'll go and meet you in ways I'm not saying it's always one-sided but you're going to end up really being strongly affected and probably ending it more and more like this person yeah I think you know I think we'll probably agree that there is one person who is maybe a little bit more personality dominant in the relationship um and they're a little bit of the driver maybe the more outgoing one or the whatever they're they're the kind of the driver in terms of life doings and and things like this you know and maybe even spiritually maybe even philosophically whatever if they care about that more other person might not care that much about it so they'll let the other one lead in that way and so I do feel to your point that like someone is going to influence the other one probably a bit more I think more well I can't say I think it's even even it could be men or women it doesn't really matter I think maybe for traditionally it's the men a little bit more but I think totally it could be 50/50 you know and so I think that the choice of partner and not just the choice of partner from a physical or energetic standpoint but when you be you know when you're a little bit older and you can choose consciously especially in a monogamous relationship but any relationship really is to look at the trajectory of how they're viewing the expression of their life as sort of a creative Endeavor if you will and where that fits with your view of it and if those two views align then the Synergy could be even greater than than they could be individually actually you know because you'll learn from each other in in ways that you're both bringing in constantly new or deeper information from your own independent studies well I think that's the Tantra thing right yeah that two people who can orientate together can create a lot of energy together right yes and all kinds of relationships not the just the romantic ones you and I we talked about before like we have partnership right what we're doing and we build like and we help each other grow and develop it can be all kinds of relationships like that but I I really believe that that's true right yeah that's the roomy Shams of debris thing too but um it is funny that you bring it up because I think in the beginning of our connection with one another I thought it was more me but at a certain point I realize oh no I'm this is We're In conflict with each other here you know and like in some ways I was like okay I'm being influenced by this person which is fine I don't mind being influenced uh but then at this point I really had it was a very it was another one of those moments I had a very clear thought like I'm going to go do this Zen it's important to me another point I wanted to bring up in the little case study it's important for me to do this now sure if I don't do this now then I probably am not going to do it or the decisions I make going forward will not be informed by who I really am it's important that I know who I am now because then the rest of the decisions I make will would be a reflection of that right but if I just get driven forward to making a bunch of decisions they won't reflect who I am and this thing is going to go off course yeah I feel that I feel like a lot of a lot of times when I've been adamantly know about things or adamantly yes about things um it's not an accurate representation of my authentic feeling you know that's interesting and I'm just unwilling to to comply because it's not me yeah I mean definitely if it's not me I I could definitely and it was it was more like I kind of recognized like she's not going to let me do this there's no way I'm gonna get so much resistance it's gonna be S pressure point of conflict between us that she's gonna like she's just not going to accept me right in this right yeah um but I also felt like again the kind of things around okay there's a security thing here it's a type two question and you know traditional relationships are a lot about security we can be honest about it you know sure and and it really hit me as I was thinking about this episode you I knew we were recording it coming out of the retreat and these are economic relationships they almost always are I'm not saying they aren't love relationships too right but they're economic relationships because you spend all this time building this thing with this person and your whole life hinges upon what happens with them in a very real way right you're you're economically in twined with them you're practically in time with them that's just the truth it hit me pretty deeply even reflecting back on this and I think I was realizing this around around that time um so I guess the other thing I would say in terms of the type one type two I had this with this thing where I realize okay so this is how it is you know um there's like a type two thing the way Yung is talking about and maybe that's okay for you maybe that suits you right there's a type one thing where you feel like afraid you're falling out the bottom and then there's like a type three thing where you're trying to like explode out the top you might say or something right it feels wrong to like hierarchy these things right but it's it's written into the thing and he thinks that way on some level so it probably reflects his views but in any case if you do feel like you're stuck there's a way of like popping out right let's say it like that you know if for you that feels stuck you know to be in that type two space and um and so on the one hand I realized I have all these fears around this I was afraid of that I was pretty conscious like okay I'm a little afraid here of like falling out the bottom but I'm I'll ask people to think about this you know each in their own way but the other one of the other things about this in this little case study thing is like okay I realiz like I'm going to have to challenge this fear in myself right and so I made a kind of a conscious decision to say okay I'm GNA let myself fall out the bottom a little bit and I'm going to go through and I'm not GNA go to gr School even though everyone kind of expects me to do it you know not doing that I'm gonna go study this Zen stuff I'm GNA eek out a meager living which was pretty meager uh was living in what you would call a garden apartment in the Chicago parlaments which means a basement it's not like you get to see the garden you live under the garden you're under the garden yeah you can like see the tops of the grass and that was by Wrigley Field where the Cubs play the Chicago CS baseball team and the drunken people would go walking past my window and look into my little garden apartment and I would hello as I'd be doing my zen and uh and like it was one of the most important Windows of my entire life you know because it was more the thing you were talking about earlier is when I kind of like took more of the re on this I'm like okay I'm not going to get trampled by these horses I'm going try to hop on a horse you know in the union thing um whatever sort of images you like and I'm gonna try to like like I'm to ride this thing country music Chris Stapleton so um uh yeah so it was really important to do that and it was like I guess it was pretty conscious too it was this was a pretty what was interesting it was very conscious decisions it was like this woman is not going to let me go through this Zen can't do it I got to go this way even though I love her she's not going to let me do this thing I have difficulties with this Christianity how they're framing how life should be lived I guess I don't agree with it you know I don't know who I am yet but I don't agree with this you know and then it was also like I'm afraid of like the risk that I felt in this retrospectively I think I wasn't like falling through the bottom I was trying to do the type three thing I was trying to like HP out in the other direction though I didn't see it that way at the time but that's what I was trying to do right you know and uh so I mean those are I guess for me are some of the important uh morals of this um as we get to kind of the end of this I suppose yeah I only last thing I would say about it was it made me reframe s up now that I looked back and it it was like yeah you gotta find your s up and just to a little frame of reference for those who are unfamiliar with that term well we let some other things we let uniqueness and exclusiveness slip r with it we did uniqueness is people who sort of look at relationships more like I can be have feelings for multiple people because each one is more unique and my feelings for them are special exclusiveness are people who just want the one person it's a little late in the game for that one it is a little late we did we do have an episode called the the ex exclusivity principle which is an episode just dedicated to those two terms basically yeah it's it's a cool asra paral of phraseology yeah yeah the S thing is like your spiritual Community yeah there you go but what you know what really hit me was for our culture your your relationships your significant other significant other that's your s yes for me we talked about this you know like maybe we talked about in the episode that didn't stick but like my kids are my songa sure that turned I didn't expect that but they are you know I'm talking to my daughter about a lot of deep stuff you know and my son too even though he's younger you know what's age appropriate but right um uh you know there's the S you know uh and so I think maybe that's a different way for us to think about s but then you know in the Zen in the in the Tantra thing I should say's the whole thing about be careful how you choose your s yeah yeah choose the sa that suits your tantric personality if you're not choosing the sa that shoots your sric tantric personality it's hard to be a tantrica you know you're gonna get you're gonna get pushed off so um so I think I was this this stuff was all clicking you know so that's I guess my case study for the most part right mmhm um I wouldn't say it's been all entirely easy because you know when we did the uniqueness I was writing I was writing a listener and friend today about this you know um you know we kind of framed it as like maybe orientations there's a uniqueness orientation there's an exclusiveness orientation maybe you could also think of it like a Continuum or something right for people to exist on like like some place along this Continuum where they feel comfortable right and maybe for me I'm more like way towards the uniqueness side or something like that but um uh you know being that way it's a very exclusivist culture you know you see it when you're not that and so that hasn't always been easy you know uh but for the Capper of this little part of this for me I would say I think I still feel like like it was the most important thing to do because it's better to be who you are yes you know it's better to be who you are and to feel comfortable in your own skin even if it gives you some conflicts it still feels better yeah okay so I guess that's the bulk of the case study I have like one other thing I like to throw out for your interest in the future episode but that certainly I'll keep but that seems like a natural stopping point right yeah I think so did you want to do your own episode on this Daniel how do you feel about this do you have a story you want to tell you we'll talk about it off mic you know the other thing I had the idea of just to like slightly preview it is there's a DST idea called the nine obstructions oh yeah that's right I think I was starting to realize the nine obstructions okay yeah that can go wrong so maybe we'll do deny obstructions as the followup to this or something yeah yeah okay that's cool all right thanks so much Daniel for sharing this one with me you know it's always interesting when we get the chance to share these ways yeah yeah I know thanks for sharing I think you know doing we don't always do case studies like this I mean we kind of do bits by I mean every episode is a little bit of pieces you know from our Our lives our experience so on and so forth you know um from the clinic to you know with dealing with patients and students in your case sometimes um but it I think it's just important for people sometimes to do the stocktaking of their own experience and learn like sit down and learn from it just you know I think most people have some kind of reflection in their life you know depending on their their level of time that they give themselves to do that but it's it's different when you sit with either somebody else or you sit with uh you know a pen and paper or voice recorder or something like that and like just lay it all out for yourself give give give your your tale give give the narrative to something or someone or even you and to see what is that that you can either relearn remember and then apply moving forward again so that you're not repeating the same mistakes and you can see there might be something else that was happening throughout your story that may give you an insight into yourself or into what might be coming in the future I I just think that's a powerful thing and so you know just on top of the the particulars that you learned as you were going through it this is really an important reminder for those that like your life is your story and that story is unfolding and what has happened will influence what will also happen you know and so as we kind of talk about like this authentic style of living like you said you wanted to choose from the place that you wanted to choose from based on these very particular experiences you wanted that to influence your decisions and your life and so you had a moment of conscious choosing of like no no no I want to choose the next aspect of my life after I do this particular thing yeah and like it's interesting because there was there was it was the Y thing of like getting ahead and going okay I'm G consciously do this right I'm recognizing like I want the rest of my life to reflect the insights that I'm getting now m better do this now because then this window will close and I'll be pulled off into something else y you know and then the other part that was really striking looking back and I know I said it earlier but maybe it's part of the Capper of it would be yeah like you didn't you don't know where this is going to go right and so if I hadn't let the opportunities go where they were going to go I could never have predicted that it would go to this place there's no [...] way in hell I would have thought that they would end up here yeah you know and know your mind is a funny thing because it's trying to calculate like where's this G to go where is this go yeah you don't know actually right and that's the point of doing it yeah it's interesting right you really don't know and then you're like okay wow like it had to go to this place this is actually the logical unfolding of this I never would have anticipated that in advance right and I so I never could have like plot tried to plot this course like because really was I had to like let these things unfold interesting gotta do it very very strange because if I wouldn't have done that these other things wouldn't have happened if I would have like try tried to be schemy you know try to say okay these are the right things to do these other things wouldn't have ever had the opportunity to grow it's interesting yeah we don't have any product placement but uh the uh advertising slogan for one company just do it is very good yeah yeah yeah it's interesting okay so thanks so much Daniel yeah appreciate thanks for sharing um and for our audience thanks for listening we do appreciate all the the love and the feedback if you uh want to you know leave a comment in the YouTube you know please go ahead and do so we get some comments once in a while it's nice to see people interacting with us so feel free to do that same thing on Instagram uh Jin and Tantra podcast on Instagram if you're listening to us on Apple you know leave us a review it helps the show grow uh but anything else you know you guys can do uh you know leave us an email if you like at ginand Tantra gmail.com and share share our work with people this you know this is a you know we always say this is a a passion project we have here so uh you know the more people hear it the more uh you know it feeds us a little bit we get a little bit a little bit of juice from the from the love that we get from people so you know feel free to hit us up let us know how uh you know some of the things that we have you know been sharing been discussing over the last few years have sparked even conversations within you know within yourself or within your community and if you don't have anybody to talk about it with then you know feel free to come talk to Uncle Daniel and Uncle Eric you know we'll be happy to continue the conversation because this is our this is our experience this is our life this is what we feel to be you know an important facet of our you know authentic or our creative living and uh and having these conscious conversations gives a flashlight to the maybe the some of the darker parts of our life not darker in terms of experience but like things that we don't always think about you know because we all have so much stuff going on with our schedules and our patients and you guys everybody has families and obligations and whatever but but taking some time to do what we're talking about reflection this is our way of making it uh a staple in our being not just the moments where we take you know 10 minutes or whatever to look back at it but making it an active conversation and igniting that with other people uh it it's really a gift in my life and I know Eric you You' you know you feel the same I mean we really believe that this is a spiritual process like we really believe in that yeah this is like one of the best things you can do for yourself like we genuine believe in it so yep thanks for letting us share yeah thanks for letting us share exactly well my friend thank you so much for sharing everybody else for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one [Music] peace