[Music] what's going on everybody thanks for tuning in to Jin and Tantra spirituality with the twist you have Daniel with you today driving the driving the mothership if you will or the flagship perhaps or the battleship I think we'll call it today um Eric is uh Eric is off doing something I'm sure and so we are once again joined by uh friend of the show and friend of myself Christian vilr Christian is an acupuncturist and a Kung Fu teacher and a student of many things and a teacher of many more uh in the local Chicagoland area so we'll we'll have his information in the bio or in the beginning of this episode for sure uh this is kind of a continuation of our previous conversation um from whenever the episode will be published previously to this so it might be some days or a week I don't know you know but this is a continuation and last time we had sort of uh dug into this idea of therapy or healing through catharsis and we sort of gave some various what do you saw descriptions or definitions of types of therapy and we sort of broke those down a little bit for those who you know are are catching this you know and for those who heard it this is just a brief recap um but then we wanted to make the pivot to cultivation as we had talked about catharsis is the beginning stages of a healing process and I think you and I both agree that that was a very important part and it was your uh contention that people often get stuck in this cathartic Loop we didn't use that term last time but we can certainly use it today and that they end up remaining there and that that doesn't really give people the opportunity to look forward I believe that was kind of your point well I think the cathartic Loop is a nice phrase and I might steal that and use that in the future please and I I think the cathartic the cathartic Loop kind of just points back to maybe one of the basic characteristics of our culture which is instant gratification um you know in the holistic medical Fields it's always interesting because people come from the alpath or the pharmaceutical like backgrounds and they're used to getting um external things that they can take that will hopefully at least have the promise of making them feel better um without them really having to do much of anything um so we're easily conditioned into you know wanting I think you know quick quick Solutions right to our to our pressing problems um and you know catharsis just like you know in in the maybe in a distorted way like just like a cheap thrill you know is kind of easy to get a quick High um that helps you feel a little bit better for the time being but doesn't actually provide much uh substance for long-standing change um and then cultivation practices um which you know in another way I think would even also Encompass things like Shadow work takes a lot of um takes a lot of discipline and compassion um to do that self-facing work um and that's where I think the work of coaching um starts to come in in a slightly different way than maybe traditional therapy but obviously fields are always evolving and I don't want to try to Pigeon whole therapy or something that's stagnant sure um but you know allowing or at least finding ways to help people move past the feeling better just for a little bit coping your way through life and then actually getting to a place where you've um released enough that you can feel unburdened enough to make some real changes in your life um and and you know I've just noticed that with a lot of patients and clients um once they start to feel better the um impetus the impetus or the urgency for having to do the work starts to go away totally and that is one of the one of the most dangerous moments and I try I try to uh I try to remind people all the time it's like and not in a fear-mongering way but just set expectations it's like yes like today we are up and it is totally normal if tomorrow we are down um people have a tendency to think they're going to stay stuck down here um or be afraid that they're not going to be able to stay up here um so yeah there but yeah let me let me say let me say a couple things one so what you're talking about from a I don't know what do you want to call it neurochemical level is the difference between dopamine and serotonin sure right so for those who are unfamiliar what Christian is talking about after you know one does something of of short-term release you get a hit of dopamine right your phone you get a notification on your phone or someone texts you or you get an email or you know something like this you smoke a cigarette you know whatever the case is or and and what Christian is talking about is you know you have a cathartic kind of a release and in the short run yes it feels good there's no doubt about it but it it is uh only had with decreasing returns only experience with decreasing returns and so it doesn't give you the same feedback loop to keep you going back to it so you have to increase it you have to change it you have to do something more to to keep you returning to it to give you that same kind of dopamine hit or we could say you know feedback loop right uh this cathartic loop on the other hand you have more practice-based experiences which build over time and don't give you as much short-term uh excitement if you will those are more what they call serotonin based things that make you feel good over a longer period of time because you're doing these things over and over and over again and so the discrepancy between these two is finding the stuff that gives you something when you do it but then also helps to helps you to grow as your uh feedback from it Di fines and then like you're saying you can help people to see beyond the Gap because there inevitably will be a gap there whether it's a learning curve or something neurochemical right that you no longer get the same hit that you did when you did something but then what you were talking about is stepping in and saying hey person X understand that there's you you are feeling good right now but there's going to be a little bit of a dip before the the next level of experience comes in the next level of Mastery or whatever takes over and you start getting rewards from the the whatever meditation that you're doing or the art class that you're finally enjoying after six weeks of hating it you know what I'm saying does that make sense exactly um you know be before we started recording we were talking about pranayama and we were talking about building pressure in the different chambers of the body and creating the conditions you got you got to open that up a little bit we got a a wide audience you know what I'm saying okay so um before we started recording we were talking about traditional breath work practices yes and talking about how to use breath to literally increase pressure inside of the body um and using that image um catharsis um in any form whether it's you know going through your phone or smoking a cigarette or you know a cheap quick orgasm whatever it might be that makes you feel better right right away you know I want to do the thing from that movie you know but I won't right but so all of this stuff is all these practices or all of these not practices all these behaviors yes are releasing are just like a pressure cooker releasing pressure or venting the system right and so a cathartic release allows you to prevent pressure out of the system whereas cultivation practices help to build a stronger furnace sure that the stronger furnace can take that pressure and work with it without exploding and create something alchemical through that process um like I creating a diamond under pressure in s in simpler terms give give me give me a a little bit more practical you know what I mean so like give me a little bit one one more layer of practicality from this well I mean perhaps it's just I mean maybe I don't know if it's what practicality but um it's about developing resilience um and and I don't mean that from like a oh you got to be tough um it's more so of you I think it's more so you have to love yourself enough to keep getting stronger to be able to be keep going through more lessons uh and and keep evolving you know you talked about um you know when someone hits that gap between the the dopamine and the serotonin um you know clinically or professionally I I I think more so than even just giving someone information in that space it's like just to be there in that Gap to catch people um and to be there for them to catch them until they get strong enough and develop a broad enough awareness around themselves and their own actions to catch themselves preemptively and that that I think is the coaching work um really and that's why like coaching work is ultimately so different than therapy um my coaching clients it's you know the boundaries are probably should probably be stronger in many ways mean but there's there's so much support um and there's so much communication that takes place because you are literally helping people um Escape codependent Tendencies and de velop their own independent um Tendencies yeah well I think you said it quite well just a minute ago resiliency developing resiliency and resiliency like you mentioned comes through loving oneself and you know but we could say maybe even in a in a larger scale if that's abstract for folks I I I enjoy you know for those who don't already know my psychology uh I'm also learning it simultaneously I en enjoy breaking things down as mundane as I can because it helps me to understand even my own self you know what I'm saying and so if if loving oneself does that does that doesn't equate in terms of developing resilience then we can say you can develop patience you can develop forgiveness right and each of those is it it comes along with a secret strength right so it's not about becoming tough as in what the traditional idea of tough is Right strong rigid kind of inflexible right the typical what we consider like Alpha person male or female or whatever Western strong Western strong right right but that's not what we're talking about because if anybody's ever done any like martial arts or sports or just life you will realize very soon that there are plenty people who are stronger than you and they are often in your in your vicinity and so it it less it becomes less about competing with others and more about like you said developing your own self- resiliency and the the difficult parts are at least in my for me in my own understanding of this it really is a lot about like self-love compassion resiliency patience you know all these different kinds of things that help you to be more flexible and in your flexibility you become stronger you end up becoming yeah I mean the word is resilient you know you can bounce back from things it it doesn't it doesn't break you it molds you you know what I mean well I think it part of becoming part of becoming that kind of resilient and flexible embracing that um Bend and don't break is feeling whole and yeah when we don't feel whole when we don't love ourselves in wholeness there are parts of s that parts of ourselves that we hate or that we loath for one reason or another um and those like the unfolding of shame that comes through there and how that how that influences us um well let's keep it real tell me tell me a little bit about tell me a little bit about yours about about your journey here because you and I I think both are people who can feel comfortable confident and capable oh my God those I love when I love when things start with the same letter I like that so much you know what I'm saying um but feel comfortable confident and capable of leading people to places that we have been or through situations that we have been through and they are in a similar scenario right we can do other things for sure but I I don't want to put words in your mouth but I feel very comfortable doing that in that in in that way because I can say not only do I have some education around this but I also have firsthand experience I only know what it's like to be me but I can say for sure here's what I did in this situation which seems to be a little bit similar to yours and in this way we get to have our life and our own experience inform our practice which is the beauty part of the beauty in the life and the work that we have chosen if I'm speaking yeah no I I agree I mean I think think uh as education aside right we've obviously like you know we're both doctors in our field and we have um a lot of education and a lot of clinical experience and if you wanted to work just from textbook experience and knowledge we could do so and have probably much more simple practices sure that um yeah and just have much more simple straightforward mundane types of practices um I think both you and I understand that healing is very interconnected and nonlinear um and that you know and I know both you and I obviously have our own spiritual inclinations which make us prone to see the multi-dimensionality of people's afflictions um and so I guess I feel like in my own life I have been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to become aware of myself at various stages um and to become aware of myself um repeating unconscious patterns over Decades of time um and been able to see how those beh how those unconscious behaviors that I had that were part of my personality um were based were were causing a lot of we're causing me a lot of harm do you feel comfortable giving an example sure I mean I think this you know the very simplest and probably most universal example is that my um challenges around love and selfworth that originated around my relationships with my parents and um the issues around my family Dynamics um made it challenging for me um on top of other things like other on top of other cultural issues and being culturally misplaced and much of my upbringing um made it difficult for me as I grew up to feel um comfortable that I would that I was worthy of love and so I spent many many many many years like literally decades um with this very deep feeling that took me many a long time to put into words that I was that no one was ever going to love me and that I was not as I was not good enough the way that I was um and so I had to become something better than I was and convince the people around me that I was something else so that they would love me more which meant that I entered a lot of into a lot of relationships um with a not being able to be genuinely myself because I wasn't worthy so I had to be something better um I also it you know gave me terrible boundaries because I would give away of myself excessively um because I didn't think I would be wanted otherwise um and you know that pattern of that pattern of self-reflection um also made it difficult for me to have the confidence to succeed professionally um you know made it challenging for me to feel comfortable socially like these sp's compounded over over the years and um it took basically going through a very challenging breakup um that would that you know was now three times familiar um to really snap me out of it and be like I'm doing something here and I can't do this anymore um and so you know not to rant on about this but you know my own personal experience and becoming aware of my own negative self-perception um allowed me or not allowed me but it it opened the door for me to go on a journey of doing my my first layers of like personal Shadow work sure um which allowed me to start to let go of a lot of things that I didn't know I was holding on to and like I think my earlier call like you know you can't let go of something that you haven't been able to name and get able to correct you know and so um I dove head in and I think for karmic and like for karmic reasons I think I was I was given certain gifts that I was able to dive into Shadow work and feel at home in it once I got in there and I was able to then um in my own way over several years really go through quite a journey of um unraveling my own childhood conditioning understanding my my my larger family's like immigrant journey and the way that that's influenced um the evolution of our family values evolution of our family values influenced my perception on reality and how those limitations really created a lot of constraint provided a lot of positive foundation for sure but also a lot of constraint and so my massive part of the healing Journey for me which is ultimately spread into the entirety of my family truly has been letting go of all of these constraints yeah and becoming more uh more you more me more free at different levels and so so so so these are we have so we've been you know we've talked about this we talked this little bit about this last time U this idea of the the false self and Eric and I have mentioned this before this thing called the emotional plague which we uh have mentioned numerous times psychologist Wilhelm Reich uh talks about this emotional plague right and the and the contagion of ideas that are floating around in the in the world in the in the culture and you know the Lexicon of our own our shared language that push people to to do what you are talking about exactly create something that is not you but you are doing it because you believe you made an agreement with yourself that you can receive love based on an exchange or receive attention or what we can call it however you want to this however you want to dis dissect love we can we we'll do it right um but that like ultimately that self is not authentically who you are and the dissolving right the cathartic portion of it the dissolving of that false self is the first step in finding out who it is that you are authentically first and in addition to that you know we've also Eric and I been talking over the last couple months about these like nine dowst obstacles that will [...] up your life as we like to say and you mentioned a couple of them uh first one uh being smothered by parental demands the second obstacle being bound by love and attachment even in your your story which were not even authentic represent presentations of who you are still Bound by love and attachment that's the third obstacle we have a couple more episodes to do to finish to get to the rest of the nine and our uh upcoming uh book JY and tantro spirituality with a Twist in in paperback will be written at some point this year but those are some of the things that we're we're talking about but exact but why I wanted you to share is because without prompting you without asking you you just talked this is the experience that has been written about by numerous people over and these DST obstacles are hundreds if not thousands of years old wiel Reich was around in the 50s like these types of of shared experiences are shared and they are part of the journey and so we wanted to highlight this in order to move the conversation towards the cultivation aspect if if we can do that so I wanted to say in in the in a good practitioners way thank you for sharing your story it is it is unique to you but is shared by many many people and you know you mentioned Joseph Campbell last time and we've we've mentioned our Uncle Joe here numerous time but you know the hero with a thousand faces you know this is the the story of of time in Memorial is somebody going through their own um particular hero's journey and coming out the other side and what you and I are saying is Let's Be on let's work towards getting to the other side and then your work is not done your work is just as intense on that side as it is on this side it just looks different well you enter a different um archetypical role yeah once you come out the other side of the hero's journey you know yeah um but you know I guess we're leaning into the cultivation P part here um a lot of people I've witnessed um coming in for treatment right and treatment is inherently somewhat of a cathartic PR this don't even know that the hero's journey exists they don't even know that it's an option in life yes they don't even know that they can think of themselves in such a way that their life is even a story to be told and that maybe they could even be the authors of it themselves versus along for the ride yeah we talked a little about that last time I think we said like becoming the con becoming the conscious author of your own existence yeah so you know cultivation um you know when when I first say the word cultivation because of my history the first thing that comes to mind is like you know daily chiong practice and with you know mindful movement and mindful breathing and mindful mind um and that's all well and good um if you're into that kind of stuff sure but if you're not into that kind of stuff then that might not be all well and good um and you know you and I are both sort of fans of traditions but um I think we encounter a lot of people who aren't ready to dive head first into traditional practices um start their cultivation um and you know my cultivation um when I when I work with people on a cultivation practice um a lot of it start start off a daily ritual um so you know I you know maybe I'm pushing my own agenda here but I have push it listen because here here's part of this this is informational right it's mildly entertaining and occasionally there's some humor but it's probably pretty shitty you know what I'm saying but you can totally have you this as a reference for people so my my my interest my you know ever since I was a probably 13 14 years old I was interested in eastern philosophies um and I've always been very drawn to the um to The Elegant Simplicity uh that hides the complexity of of of dosm um and Daoism in its again super simple ways recognizes the cycles of Nature and recognizes where all of the smaller cycles of life fall with within the greater cycles of nature um and somewhere within that if you can be a a Great Sage of the cycles of nature then you're just a master of time really um and you sort of sit and watch the wheels of time moving and knowing when to act and when to do nothing which is the doing and the non-doing that is super cool um but in honor of that mentality in honor of the cycles and an honor that we as a part of nature might feel better if our behavioral Cycles align with the cycles of nature then maybe we'll feel like we're part of the flow instead of chaotic and so I ask people to acknowledge first that we live within Wheels within Wheels Cycles within Cycles years months weeks days hours um and then to start by honoring and living in accordance in a mindful accordance with the with the cycle that most influences us which is the daily cycle and so for a basic cultivation practice that starts off with developing a morning routine and an evening routine to help to create um repe meaningful repetition which gradually over time cultivates um something uh in in the same way like we're talking about maybe three or four months into it all of a sudden the Contin you know the maintenance of your daily altar provides you um low level constant Joy you know um so that's the first thing I really look into for cultivation is slowing down the mind bringing it into Focus around daily rituals um and then allowing the ritual to create Stillness so that the Stillness can cultivate something maybe we can call it presence um for some people that's enough for just a month honestly um because that's a lot that's a lot for someone to even wrap their head around as well what what are the elements of a ritual for me what is Meaningful for me in the aesthetic of my life that adds richness to my life that I would want to even bring into something that I would ritualize you know um not everyone's into burning incense or you know like saying a mantra or like doing a prayer or something you know maybe it has to be something more more unique uh or specific to you um it well it should be yeah exactly of course but what you just said is what I do every day I was like oh that sounds good oh yeah okay cool I mean I your subversion of that as well you know yeah totally but you know good being practitioners or let's just say being sensitive to other people we are aware that one size does not fit all and the the goal is not to have um a dogmatic approach but something that is applicable to many people right and that means that our approach has to change based on who we're talking to who we're working with so while you know saying a mantra or you know burning some incense will be like you said good for some not good for others but I'm not particularly attached to having somebody do something in the way that I tell them to do it I'm far more interested in having somebody say say I tried what you recommended it didn't work I didn't do it but I found this instead and now that to me I'm like yes you did it's less about what and more about how and if you can and if somebody can take something that I you know bring to them as a suggestion and find it like you're saying a way that's better for them for their own life in their own way well then that's that's ultimately when you can see that the beginning of some change happening for that person that things start to take hold well this not this hopefully this won't get too off topic but you know this goes into the subject of tradition and lineage which you and I have talked about a little I'm listening um you know I I feel like you and I just in our own lives and our own personal Journeys have had our own practices which are very nonlinear and very eclectic that have all collectively serve to facilitate our um any number of Awakening experiences that we may have had sure um and so we can what do you mean but but for people who are listening again because we got our audiences wide so Awakening experiences open this up a little bit when I say when I say an Awakening experience I guess I mean a peak experience of altered Consciousness um so maybe that'll be through like intense breath work maybe it'll be through intense meditation maybe it would be through a plant medicine ceremony um any you know um yeah a state of a state a nonu state of consciousness I don't know how else H maybe you can elaborate for yeah yeah let let me let me try a little bit so I I want for you know people who are listening to this to not feel as if if they don't have a peak experience that there is not still some motivation to continue what they're doing right what we're talking about dopamine and and serotonin in this case but really when it when it's at its at its finest it's both so you get this regular feedback positive feedback because you're cultivating a sense of Mastery and a sense of closeness uh a sense of repetition in a way with something that's opening and furthering your practice and your experience more and more but then you get to reap the rewards of that right not just the the the change that comes internally within your own psycho emotional state but then also externally in your life in the way that you deal with actions and reactions of certain things you know and how you think and process you know and feel and all of this and so if someone doesn't understand the concept of a peak experience I guess I could say be like in a in a small moment they will say there are the tantric view of things the Buddhist view of things well the tantric view really will say that there are some moments in life where you can have a peak experience right so an orgasm is one the tip of a sneeze the that moment right before you sneeze is another one the the peak of a yawn is another one the moment upon sleeping the moment upon waking the moment upon death right um and I can even add like epiphanies right the space between thoughts where you'll get something oh you know or maybe if I could say uh when you learn something new you like an epiphany you know you you learn something new or even if you remember something which to me uh I could do a whole podcast on that right there because they're the same feeling but they're two different ways anyways let's the point right now though right because the point the point I guess I was trying to make is that you know we have we have had a lot of personal experience in in in having those States Of Consciousness yes and so we've been able to help people have their own experiences of those States Of Consciousness in the exact same way that you probably just helped some listeners have those experiences of Consciousness by listing off um mundane access points to that like the sure right all of those resonate with me um and so you you know you you are serving as a vehicle for this for the taste of Awakening okay and these are all practices or things that have meaning and significance to you which you can share with others if they don't have meaning and significance then it's just a tradition and you're just doing what your teacher told you because your teacher told you yeah and and so I think that's um that's kind of the part of the coaching process I guess is helping people um helping people find out what's theirs yeah you know cultivating their like I give you my path but only just for a little while until you can make your own I don't want you to walk my path and I guess is sort of where where I was going to with that yeah that's a great way of putting it and um but you know it's but even there is challenging right because the same practices might not have the same effect in the same way as they have had on us you know um but but sort of getting back to like a practical route um you know I started off with um you know C cultivation with this uh with this idea of ritual and routine that really is mostly in taking a higher executive function level role in shaping the way that your mind is operating through its daily tasks and through its daily presence yeah which is another um maybe another characteristic of being that not everyone even knows is available to them um to develop a higher self voice that is guiding um that is guiding maybe lower self throughout the day um say more about that sure absolutely I mean this is these are this is one of the reasons why in earlier parts of my practice I was so big on the like the ice baths and the cold showers and stuff like that um was because I was intentionally using that experience to develop to split my Consciousness to develop a higher level of awareness so that can talk to myself through difficulty and through challenges without giving into pain fear or discomfort um and to develop a voice of equinity or a voice of purpose um that sits sort of above above the body um and and I think you know in in terms of cultivation right what are we cultivating right what are we cultivating right we're cultivating awareness um and a greater awareness generally would feel hopefully less anxious because awareness that sees the bigger picture will feel less anxious about what's happening like in the moment sure so you know again it's it's kind of an interesting question really what does cultivation mean are we talking about body are we talking about mind where where does it really blend um so we'll probably have to do another series or another episode I think one one of the things so maybe we'll you know kind of move towards the the latter part of our discussion here um you had mentioned earlier and I wanted to I'll jog your memory about it now with using the the body as a c you know cultivating something via the body right if you part of our discussion if you want to touch on this I think that'd be a good that'd be a good place to put it now [Music] um well I think I'm probably gonna end up stealing something from from words I've heard from you I mean the the body is an a is a it's a vehicle to generate and experience pleasure and something that I something that something that came to me early on in my medical practice um was this little quick realization that people are really good at pointing out what doesn't feel good in their bodies yes we're very Adept at going to the doctor and saying this hurts this feels bad this doesn't feel good I don't like this This concerns me no one ever just shows up to anyone says you know what I feel great today my feet feel good my tummy feels great everything's awesome right so we have a hard time um and I just don't think we've been culturally educated in this in this way or like encouraged to even think in this way um you know we have a hard time identifying goodness and positivity within ourselves maybe physically maybe psychologically emotionally spiritually and maybe even in the whole world as a projection of [Music] that so we can use it's been my experience I think you would agree that we can use the body and mindful physical practices to generate positive emotions and experiences within ourselves um and generating those positive emotions and experiences with ourselves serves as substance to help us carry through day-to-day experiences um because we can recall those emotions and those feelings um kind of hearkening back to Pardon to the catharsis um you know we talked about how catharsis is kind of the first the first step of the healing process um a lot of the cathartic practices seem to align with what would otherwise be known as like Pelini Awakening practices would you agree with this Daniel uh no no not not not in that sense because those practices like when we're talking about cathartic healing we we mentioned a lot we said the initial stage was like sharing one's healing narrative sure and I don't believe that that is part of that particular okay oh yeah okay sure sure sure sure sure um so I guess when when I when I was referring to cathartic then I was was referring more to physical catharsis catharsis versus um maybe like a more gentle like narrative type of catharsis um or um th yeah different kind of catharsis let me let me say this okay you you you brought this up and I and I want to just open it up a little bit here because it's it's an important point and you are talking about you mentioned saying the body is a vehicle to experience pleasure and I don't know that I'm going to even say anymore that it's an opportunity I'm going to say for those who are on the path it's it's almost a little bit more of an obligation now that is to be fully aware that you and I both have patients who are chronically ill with various things or we'll say chronically con you know Afflicted with some various levels of illness low energy chronic pain or whatever we try and manage these things so we're not I'm not wiping those things away I'm aware that that not disrespectful to what other people are experiencing totally totally but at some point they have PE if you can recondition yourself to understand that the body is not the only source the body is not only a source of discomfort right that you do have a mind that you do have other aspects of yourself that you can have at least a place of Refuge from discomfort and sometimes the same place that you brings you discomfort also brings you refuge and if you can spend more time and again it's not to it's not to um minimize someone's suffering but it does also say that like while there is suffering there is also pleasure possible and I'm not always saying sexual pleasure or pleasure for food or something like this but like a general sense of contentedness that brings you a sense of Peace So that you are not wanting so much the levels of desire you are not driven so intensely by desire right that leaves you in a in a more of a dopamine state which that drop off happens when the thing is over with and so to re to reintegrate or to recultivated or cultivate for uh beginning purposes your own experience that is moving driven more towards the positive side of things not as a not as a negation of suffering but as just a balancing out of of a reorganizing of yourself and your experience because so much of what we we deal with in life is negative the culture and the stresses of money and like you said family nine obstacles 10 monsters this book you know they have all these various things that it's important for people to realize that life is not only only suffering very important I think it what what hits me in maybe more a more simple way is just it's the valuation of sensation is this sensation good or bad right and like my practice ultimately sometimes if all I can help someone realize you know here's another cultivation practice for you real practical spend a whole day not using the words good and bad to describe things or certain derivatives of right and and to not live in such a value based way where something you're feeling is has to be either good or bad sure versus just a feeling right and so immediately A Feeling is either like is it a good feeling or is it a bad feeling it's like well let me sit with this feeling and explore the various layers of sensation available to me within this feeling and I'm sure some of them will be more comfortable than other others um and so this is isn't maybe a fair sort of um thing to throw on top of people who are in chronic pain conditions right we maybe we can just look at this with someone who's you know of uh General Health yeah General Wellness and good standing right it's like you know the sensations of my clothes on my skin is it a good sensation or is it a bad sensation it's just a sensation right and I can spend the entire day um exploring the sensations of the clothes on my skin sure that is in and of itself a cultivation it's an awareness so um yeah we went we went off a little bit off Tang or off off the subject there but I guess maybe not though right because we're we're using the body right and so um you know I think what I was getting to when we last spoke was more in the line of the concept of alchemy which is that it our body um is potentially holding on to negative emotions and negative energy that over time develop into material illness um then can we use our Mind Body Connection to transform the vibrational qualities of those energies and emotions into something that is positive and health promoting versus toxic and health um detrimental um you answered your own question that is cultivation yeah there we are um but that's yeah that's that's that's it right there I guess we're done we found it yeah and that's it yeah uh well Christian thanks for coming on and having uh good conversation with us it it took us a couple hours to get there but we did and um you know for everybody who's listening uh I'll leave Christian's contact up in the you know in the beginning of this thing you know listen we are uh we're human beings just like everybody else we're working through this as we as we go this is a live conversation we kind of have an idea what we're talking about but uh as it as it goes and it unfolds it it takes twists and turns and inevitably we get to some point where you're just like yes that's what we want right there so I thank you for sharing your story I thank you for sharing yourself and for your your thoughts and your practice I hope that um for people who are listening to this that you will refer them back to this you know new patients previous patients and they could hear your thoughts on this particular topic which is crucial for your practice as it is is crucial for my practice not just with my patience but with my friendships and maybe more importantly with with myself as well you know and I and I believe um you feel much of the same um thanks for coming on audience thank you so much for listening uh hit us up in the comments on YouTube or Jin and Tantra podcast on the Instagram if you want uh please feel free to email us at Jin and tontra gmail.com if you want to get a hold of Christian just uh look at the description of this podcast whether it be on YouTube or uh wherever else you get your YouTube or your your podcast at it'll be there as well and for Eric who is not here and Christian this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music] son [Music] oh [Music] whatman son [Music] I [Music] w [Music]