[Music] hey fellow G and teers those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist so we have a number of things in the docket of things to do we hit on Dr Neil th and we want to do a little follow-up to his episode um we had a great episode last week with fedra Shantal which was really fantastic um we have our Dost stuff about the things that can obstruct your life but sometimes what happens in Daniel and I are talking during the week is one or the other of us will have an inspiration for something they really want to talk about it and this is something they really want to talk about and this was Daniel's week to have this inspiration related back the way you're describing it Daniel like things you you had just a lot of people who were like recollecting back to aspects of the pandemic so I'll throw it over to you and you kind of like I'm curious how you're thinking about this and we'll just kick it around a little bit yeah yeah so like Eric said as the week goes on you know Eric and I are both seeing patience and having various you know I think decent discussions uh with people about life and stuff like that you know Eric and I are both acupuncturist herbalist and things like this so we're doing our normal treatment stuff of pains and you know digestive stuff and sleep or you whatever people are coming in with these are common so I'm just mentioning them but then for um some other people there is I think an aspect of wrestling with life a little bit and looking for some different perspective a different philosophy and then marrying that with kind of like a treatment plan to try and help people as best as we can see things differently accept things differently let things go make more space whatever you know however it is that we we talk about it um but over the last few weeks with some patients and one in particular this week but a couple patients over the last few weeks and some personal friends over the last I don't know maybe month or two has been the the conversations have been more focused around like post-pandemic life and they came up independently but then I felt like this week it kind of came to a head because I had two really long conversations with a new patient and then with a friend of mine um this weekend and I didn't lead the conversations at all or at least I try not to but that's where they seem to end up going and and I have had this thought for quite some time and so I figured Let's uh let's do it you know and so the the aspect that was kind of I guess inspiring for me to want to talk about this on here is that because no one else really is from my from my vantage point and we were talking before we started um recording about you know just some kind of world events and this is not a political podcast you know once in a while we'll throw out some Jabs you know if someone says they're going to build something I may say well who's going to pay for it we all know we you know you know we we know that we know that that that line um so we were kind of talking about that and I think that part of that is what's moving the conversation if you could even call it a conversation but moving the the Zeitgeist forward right now with what's going on internationally it's an election year there's all kinds of stuff that you could be we'll say distracted by I'm not going to say pissed off at but we'll just say distracted by you know on top of our own issues of of whatever our life has going on and it that people's lives are still happening people are still having babies still getting married people are still passing away people are still getting ill and you know all these other things so um what I'm wanting to bring to the Forefront of the conversation though is that in 2020 and I'm I'm pretty sure that the date was March 13th and I could I could have looked it up before but I'm not going to you know we're GNA I'm going to just use that as as the date but no one that I can remember and again I'm only one person in Eric you certainly you can say and I'm definitely I'm really interested in in the audience so guys please you know hit us up at Jin and Tantra podcast on Instagram or Jin and Tantra gmail.com or leave a comment in the YouTube here um people are not talking about the anniversary of the lockdown at least in this country right I mean I can I'm only framing it within the United States I know we have a bit of our audience that's International so for you guys that date might be a little bit different but for us here it was like mid early midm March March 13th is from what I remember correctly and so what I'm saying is that there was a a specific day a line of demarcation I like to use that that phrase when we could say Okay pandemic started that day we knew it was coming a couple days before but that's the day that it started and people run into the store to get toilet paper because who knows you know they whatever you know Panic buying all the things but there was this you know this fear that was sort of placed upon Society at once and I don't really remember outside of 911 in my lifetime and Eric you're a little bit older than me where and maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis before that but where there was like a collective over the entire the entirety like it it's it cross-sectioned all of the popul ations right like 911 and then this are the two ones of my lifetime I can't think of anything else even vaguely analogous right yeah I mean again the only thing that comes to my mind would be like the cubid Missile Crisis something like this you know those things other other than that but like everything else and not to minimize things but you know certain uh weather patterns will happen in a certain area some diseases may be more prominent in a in a particular subset of the population and not to not to minimize their experience but to say it it's say it doesn't get into the larger populace you know but these things they they happen over the entire thing over the entire thing and that is a mass level trauma if I can call it what I believe it to be it's a mass level trauma that happened at once right and so we can we Mark a day and so we have a day for 911 right we don't even say the year you just say 911 and you know what that day is right we were talking a little bit about this on the phone the other day so I'll just kind of hash it again but if I say December 7th most people know that some people might know it's a bombing of Pearl Harbor right I to admit like I didn't get that one when you said that I was like you know is that the day like is that the day he was shot John lenon I I was trying to like come up with it no but there's you know there the big event in my life John London got shot when I was a kid I mean as far as that goes right right so there okay so there's so there's a few days so but for me with an event this large it's surprising to me that we don't have an N of we don't have an anniversary you know and from conversations that I have I want to open it up Eric and hear what you think I definitely hear myself and other people saying pre-pandemic post-pandemic but the pandemic was it's referred to as basically something that's like 2020 and post and pre-pandemic is obviously pre-2020 you know what I'm saying but that's not exactly what it is is it that's not it didn't happen at the it's not just 2020 it's it's March it's it's specific and there's a day and so what I'm saying is because that day is blurred because we don't identify that day as the beginning of something because we don't Mark anniversaries we're actually not done it's not over it's interesting take I remember the day very well because it was a special day for the two of us because I'll remember at the rest of my life I was driving around with my daughter and and we knew she was going to be locked down I was like we got to get this girl some weed and I called Daniel I went to the local dispensary here in Chicago and I was like well this is crap I called Daniel said hey do you have anything you could spare Danel was like yeah come on up we drove up there did a little bit of shopping and it was true because you really know what was going to happen it was like okay are we gonna be locked down we won't get any weed for my daughter you know she's gonna be trapped here need something to chill her [...] out you know uh you went to the store thinking hm you know the sh was going to stay stocked like you didn't even know you know well and that that because for people who don't know had a weird energy of like anticipation or something there was something kind of because I came up to see you and there was something kind vaguely I don't want to say giggly about it because there was nothing really giggly happening it was scary but there was also that weird reaction to the fear and the uncertainty of it yeah kind of an odd Euphoria or something I don't know how to describe that well Eric you were you had you had said um so at weed was legal on January 1st 2020 yes right in Illinois so yeah yeah so we're good yeah I'm keeping my I'm keeping my options open just in case I want to run for Congress so you know yeah yeah it was totally not no problem it was just like off legal say like you got an extra six pack yeah sure it there was nothing nothing nefarious happened and the giggly feelings were before the weed was consumed for sure definitely there was some kind of weird energy yeah yeah yeah yeah that was a very strange end maybe because with my daughter she's kind of a very fiery person anyways MH Sagittarian girl you know there was a lot of this sort of uh young energy going around just for me personally so I remember the day it's weird that we don't Market that's true you know we don't and I when I we talked a lot about repression the past year or so of this show and you makes you think okay did that thing get repressed they just decide okay let's just sequester that one off those years over here let's just not talk about that you know yeah does sort of feel that way probably you know the point like there's not there's nothing commemorating it no you know there's not you know and like it's kind of like when you brought the the the thing of talking about my real reaction was I don't know what I think about this which might be what a lot of people feel I don't know I was like okay these events happened I don't know what I think I don't know what I I don't know I think about the subject on some level I don't know what I think it meant ultimately I don't know if if I don't know what it meant actually yeah I was trying to think did things change so I'm curious what your patient said did things really change for people did they not change the society change or not that's what I was thinking after our conversation did this change or did this not change but before we get into that maybe what were people saying that they feel like okay yeah I'll throw it over you yeah yeah so so there's there's a there's a couple things here right on the first hand on on one hand one of the reasons for me to do this for want to talk to talk about this is because this is this I want some there are some episodes that I use as references for friends and for patients so you know like this is our one of our ways in which that we can log thoughts and conversations that we end up having frequently to go back and say hey here are some things that I've touched on before so as an extenstion of this conversation please go see this podcast episode so when we did the one about doing the Zen meditation because I teach lots of people to do that I go hey check this episode out he's G an hour hour and a half breakdown of this practice with some commentary whatever very easy very nice so this is one that I want to have I'm going to bookmark for people and whatnot um so so that's kind of one and the idea partly is to start the conversation to start getting the people to think for to get people to think about it because I think to your point Eric a lot of people don't I mean they'll know if they have someone has passed away way you know that's I was thinking you had losses I have to confess like I didn't loses right my mom's 83 she got Co at some point later on but she's like everybody you know for me was okay so I didn't have that personal you know uh whammy thing happened in that sense yeah you did people right yeah yes I did yeah I lost yeah yeah I lost a close friend in particular and then it was just sort of surreal doing his you know funeral outside well I played music with him so we had kind of like a an outdoor funeral drum circle basically at the beach uh right in Rogers Park in Chicago uh where he lived uh right across the street from where he lived and it was just kind of a surreal thing you know but it was I was proud in a sense to be able to have that kind of send off for somebody I was like well if there's ever any momentum to move somebody towards their next spot this is this is how you do it you know what a wonder and I and I thought at a moment it kind of brought tears to my eyes at the point at that time I was like What if I met him to help him do this you know what if this is how we celebrate the life of of one of our musical you know Compadres is to send them off you anyway so I don't want to get too deep down the tangent but that was it came to my mind that was the thing that like of the conversations you and I personally had of being person that was the one that was strong yeah know like we obviously talked at the time about all that and you they kind of like said okay this happened you kind of described how it played it was like oh okay you know yeah and uh yeah and then the events afterwards I guess on some love I didn't have that personal connection but you really did yeah yeah but what were people talking about do they feel like there's unsettled business for them or no it's that there's a there there's changes so my I I I have you know I kind of had a couple conversations with people once I knew that we were going to do this but after it became before before we're doing it after it was a thought you know desire then we're in this middle time I wanted to talk to more and more people about it and some of the very similar ideas came up now granted I talked to mainly women mainly Suburban women who do fairly decent in their Li you know in their in their career so I realized it's a subsection but then I also spoke with a couple people who were middle to lower class you know some minorities and you know as many people as I could basically in the last four or five days and there are some similarities actually so one of which is I think again just from from what I talk to people about is that the pandemic was the first time in someone's life in adult in their adult life that they stopped looking so far forward because the future was so uncertain it was like staring into a a you know a sandstorm or a blizzard you couldn't see that far you didn't know what life was going to be like if it was even going to be like because no one knew anything and so on one hand this can bring up anxiety and unease for many people which it did for sure financially like healthwise I mean there's many reasons why that would be you know in an anxiety ridden time but then for some people who were not as strapped right financially because that that that there's there's like you're only on one side or the other side with of that coin you know yeah yeah yeah yeah if you're not on the side that's strapped but you're on the other side that you're like okay I'm okay you know like I I'll be able to survive either with the money that we getting from the government or with what you had or whatever situation was people were able to focus on the moment and and I think what ended up happening at least for some of these people who are professionals they didn't feel the need to push themselves as much like that that drive to acquire more and more and more decreased because you had a glimpse that you didn't need as much so you the question it's staying on that point just for a second yeah do you think that that stuck with people or know because I was trying to remember those events like what was what was I don't know going on and like you know particular instances of how people were talking about it and things and that like different flashes but there was the whole idea of like what were they calling it The Great resignation or something they were calling it something was it the great resignation was that the term that was that was afterwards yeah more afterwards bit more afterward the whole idea was that that people were sort of and you brought this up when as we talked during the week that people went to the sort of existential thing which I guess is what part of what you're talking about here too right there was something that happened but people started really thinking about their lives and saying hey you know maybe what I'm doing here isn't exactly how I might ideally use my time right yeah on this here mortal coil and but I don't know that's the part that threw me in the whole thing when you brought it up because I was like I don't know if that really stuck or not so did people feel like it's stuck with them or was it something they had for that window of time and then it just kind of like flittered away so I have a so there's a couple people who gave some different answers one lady said if my job ever asked me to come into the office three days a week I would quit on the spot okay so her her thing never went back to the pre-pandemic kind of vibe correct another lady whose job uh she could be in the office or not she does design so it doesn't it doesn't really matter you know for her she has an office but she's not always going in cuz you know whatever um and what much of what she's doing is working across state lines anyway so you're not necessar but there was more dinners and more um schmoozing you know if you will yeah yeah but the the bigger point is that they value their time much more and for a couple of them are having a harder time going back to that prepandemic grind you know just putting your head down and like going forward and yes I understand that's what they were sharing with you as patients are going you know this is not easy for me I'm like yes okay yeah and now granted it's you know we're four it's four years that have gone by so somebody who was in their mid-30s and now who is 40 is four years older and so maybe there's a different part different phase of life or whatever but I hear this even with my 30-year-old patients you know and that's not old and any I mean 40 is not old either but like we could say Okay more life kids who knows whatever right but they and I and so I told I told them B you can never be the same person twice especially after you've seen that you don't have to do you your maybe your your wants your needs are different and one of them said that she values her time much differently now than before much so when she goes into the office now she goes oh I'm good because I'm getting some steps in I'm more active you know she's a different person in terms of her what she does work-wise it's a lot of international kind of working um but then other people who are grinding more were able to do that and so their shift is how do I get back to where I was previously because now I'm working even harder you know okay the shift has moved them to work even more and more and more why did that happen to those folks what happened in their lives that pushed them that way some of it was out of necessity to cover for expenses yeah Financial things like this and some of it economics it's still been funky none of this stuff is going to be normal it may never be totally normal again ex yeah I mean that's one of the underlying things I mean we don't do a ton of econ on this podcast because I don't think you and I are particularly well Adept at economic uh yeah we're only like so so so so yeah exactly I'm definitely not I've had economy courses but it doesn't matter um but the but but the economy has changed in in a number of different ways so there are more people who might be more willing to or less willing to go to the store you know or less willing to go to the movies part of it part of which is they're just more comfortable doing stuff at home right they're they're used to ordering things and having them delivered you know including groceries I mean there getting your groceries delivered was a a weird Niche thing from peep pod way back in the day you know and now every single grocery store will at least do in store up where you just drive your car up and they'll bring it out and stick it in your trunk you know what I'm saying like there's so many different things that have changed like this I mean we don't have time to go over all of them but what I'm saying is that some of the things that changed during the pandemic because we wanted to have social distancing or not be around other people are still here and I can tell you many many people that I talk to there's other things that that were more uniform and that's being around being in large crowds you know still not quite as much I mean I mean you could go to any concert and you'll find thousands of people swapping spit and sweating on each other and you know not not going through here there's like you know everyone yeah up my daughter and my son and they went and they came covered in mud and probably various weird fluids that Were Somehow laying in the grass and yeah yeah and this happens but there but one of my a couple of my you know patients and clients mentioned that're like they don't even really go to the movies anymore not because of anything but specifically because of it's dirty and there's they're like they're like they're not germaphobes they're not against vaccinations they're certainly not getting any more you know um but they still think about it they're like I'm still they still still lingers a little bit so I maybe what okay so maybe like we'll circle around this thing from different directions and we'll see where it right yeah but I was thinking okay you brought this point and it looks to me like there's always this kind of like especially for things that concern you but I think for both of us too there's always like an individual level and then there's like a societal level right yeah yeah Daniel the Beloved Capricorn there's always like a societal level right and so I was trying to think about that what would we what would we say about that and I really had to look and say okay so what was that like remember there was those initial things that happened where they'd have the videos you'd see where it'd be all kinds of people in some Italian city and they'd all be singing the songs out on their balconies as they were social distancing and there was that initial sort of like Rush of spirit and then that lady who plays Wonder Woman they tried to do that song Imagine and everyone really hated that that turned out really bad gal gadoo they all tried to sing imagine so there was sort of this weird feeling of the ups and downs of the feeling of like are we G to communize this is this GNA be sort of a shared experience or is this going to be a divisive experience or like what's going to happen yeah yep and at least as far as America went in the end you know it got to be I'll see what you think about this but it got to be same [...] again so I think that was part of my thought about it when you brought this up I was like did this change or not because then you thought okay this is the same [...] that always happens on the on the on the broad level you disagree with me I'm just throwing it out you think but like you know the vaccine thing happened I took the took the first ones right I got the proverbial jab because I thought this is a community thing we're doing and we could argue whether or not you think those are good or bad the side effects and all these that was certainly entrepreneurial there was money at stake and people grabbed it right yeah y then there were those big social programs it's hard I haven't thought about but there remember all the money was going out from the from the government but it was all being grabbed you know yes oh yeah suspects in the end oh yeah all the PPP money I was being stolen I mean yeah oh my go you're like this is [...] business as usual yeah you after all the you know people singing on their balconies and [...] you know and I for people who might be listening from Europe yeah it wasn't like in the United States they supported the people who had got quarantined it didn't work that way I think in England they just paid people's salaries okay we asked you to stay home let's pay your salary that did not happen here no you know so all of a sudden it was like a bunch of people were just thrown out and it became predatory very quick and you could see like okay that started the whole real estate thing these people can't afford their homes we'll do the usual [...] American shagen thing and some big corporate thing we'll step in and just vacuum up all these properties again like 2008 same [...] [...] I hate to use some many F bombs but it just that's what it is right that's what it is that's what it is it's what it is and I was like oh my God this is business as usual again you know nothing changed in this you know and and I so I I was trying to think okay did it change or not change there were some things had changed you know we were home we didn't commute as much some people still are able to work from home I I think for a lot of us it's already veering back to where it's only parttime at home if you're home at all right yeah so some of that changed around the whole idea we all be on Zoom for the rest of our lives that didn't quite work either but I thought that was just because we're not letting those people stay home screw that you gotta come to the office so we can watch you we're not gonna let you enjoy your house you gotta work get out of here back even though we proved you could do it yeah still enough we got want you watch we got these 15year leases at the in the in these buildings that we gota you know yeah justify existence exactly now is that the way you felt about it I was like I don't know if this really changed at all it all looked like there was this shock that maybe could have changed the culture but it just didn't in the end like all the usual things that I associate as quintessentially American unfolded the same Shenanigans and the same schemes and the same con jobs and this you know on this big social level I know do you feel that way too or no so so what you had mentioned in the beginning of what you just said was that you have an individual level and then a collective level but without an individual or individuals you cannot have a collective you know and so maybe on the collective level where you were and on a collective we'll say you also have like larger entities like corporations um business Trends and and Market forces we can call them you know uh we said we weren't do economics but yet here we are you know yeah we got because we got to touch on it a little bit you know that on a on a collective level no it's business as usual you know you know Banks buy up houses so the mark so the market for housing decreases because they're not selling them they're renting them that's how that game works and so then your your uh number of houses on the market goes down which means the property values go up which means everything goes up and then interest rate all that other stuff so that's a whole different conversation right so yes on that front and that's just one example that's a thing right business as usual in addition they they remembered that they could just continually raise prices and so kind of greed flation thing happening right exactly EXA we'll sell you the same amount but we'll put we'll show you the same price but you're getting less yeah oh yeah totally yes exactly it was 10 ounces before you'll be happy with four and it's you know but you're not you say the prices didn't go up so that's true um but yeah they're doing that so so that's how the collective level yeah on many of those things it's the it's the same and some of the differences like ordering your food and you know whatever being at being more at home having your things delivered whatever this is this is these are adapt changes on a on a macro scale but on a micro scale which is you cannot have macro without micro like I said I I totally think there was differences I think for me in my mind that for many people covid was like a like a collective post like a trauma and so what what we're experiencing is a post-traumatic stress syndrome you know after that and the way that people are going through it is going to be different based on their individual we'll call it karmic factors or individual genetic factors or you know their own bodies and families and learnings you know what I'm saying and so yeah with but the issue is that because it is not really discussed it's like a memory that we don't really want to talk about that it's it it's not being it's not being um collectively discharged so collectively we we in we ingested it we got injected with it if you will you know but collectively there is not a release and so for me as somebody like yourself you know we think we talk about dos Theory where is the cycling where is the natural cycle that comes through like it it does you know for those who have four seasons every year right the spring opens the summer is the full blossoming the fall is the beginning of the retraction where things start to die off and then winter time you go back in and you start the cycle over again it's more complicated than that but generally speaking that's the cycle so we've begun it fully expressed itself there was some aspects of some things kind of going away like the mask mandate and getting together and you know all this is kind of like you know normal-ish for the most part again but there hasn't been the full time to like let everything go or let some things go I guess I could say and then move into the place of reflection so at least for myself personally I wanted to do this as a service for people who might still be feeling some kind of way about their experience now and how different they were pre and postco as a means to begin this process of reflection moving them into you know the water element essentially you know um which is you know for people who are not familiar a place of reflection I guess we could say a place of increasing storage or you know something else like in the winter time you reg you regroup and you re-lect or something like that look you go back to you can kind of reconceptualize or something yeah I know I mean like thing that occurred to me with it was maybe the reason people don't want to talk about was just because it wound up not being the communal heroic and I'm going back to the social level obviously yeah yeah wound up not being that communal semi heroic Endeavor that maybe you thought was going to be in the beginning and you could walk away feeling just kind of like okay it was that and you walk away feeling kind of disillusioned or something right sure because like even under you just sort of realize like even under a situation like that the same mod zarandi continued the big wheels keep on turning and kept like grinding over the same poor people were stuck under them like you know it was one of those things like okay well it went from Italian people singing on their porches right on their balconies or their buildings to like okay same crap yeah you know and so maybe that's part of the reason why people don't want to talk about it because there was no there was no catharsis at the end because you're just like yeah that's what I'm saying that was you know that was the same you know and so maybe that's what it is that makes it maybe hard to know what to say about so maybe you do repress it as a collective or something well that's that was kind of you know yeah and uh at certainly United States it was very divisive you know that was business as usual too political opportunism from everybody economic opportunism we talked about before yeah political opportun so maybe like people got robbed at the sense that we went through something heroically together it never resolved that way yeah so like to go back I mean for people who have lost in things that of course it's painful but maybe for a lot of people who didn't necessarily have any losses as much personally you can be affected by the losses of other people of course but uh but you know on a personal level you just kind of like feel like well okay that was kind of yeah I don't it's gonna make any sense at all but I was talking to some students today and I was presenting some Buddhist philosophy in one of my classes and then I just this analogy I something it came up like this thing business is usual samsara business is usual it's samsara you know and United St has its version of samsara so we lived through like this whole like AI thing ai ai What's it gonna do What's it gonna do AI You Know What's it gonna be and in the end you realize it's gonna be the same crap you know exactly what it's gonna do you know and I started hearing about businesses and what they're going to do is they're programming the AI to recognize flow patterns in their like Wendy's was going to do this the fast food chain in the United States was going to do this where they're going to start fluctuating their prices based on demand yeah surge pricing throughout the day they're surge it like they're in Uber or something and like that's what a AI is gonna do it's gonna drive you out of work if you're in a flag position it's gonna like be used to make more money I I don't like so there's this I don't know if that analogy makes any sense it's GNA probably be used to make some porn Drive the porn stars out of work know so you're like okay it's like what's oh it's this thing what's it going to do and you're like that's it's what's it's the culture you know what it's gonna do G be used to make some more money for some people right they'll rig their things they'll fire some people they optimize this they'll figure out ways I guess they're doing it with rent too they're getting AIS to look for rental patterns so they can charge more or less drive people people's rents around a bunch of crap like that right so I don't want to be the downer in the episode but I was just like okay I think that's maybe part of what this is you know you look at that there's these like in that case you know AI isn't a tragedy it's just this weird thing that swept through or is sweeping through what's it going to be and all the Euphoria around it and the doubt and the this and that and you're like we kind of know what it's going to be you know and uh so I don't know about that on that do we agree on that social level I don't know do you feel like you just watch the culture just repeat itself because it wasn't really shaken in any way the culture just said okay this event happen let's just do our normal thing is that how you feel about it or am I you feel differently about that yeah I don't I don't think I mean I'm on one hand culture is an idea you know what I'm saying like culture is an idea and what and what is our culture we're a work first culture we're a self-sacrifice last culture interesting I don't know what to think about that like people are are you're being sold things so that you will purchase them because you deserve it right YOLO case in point right it's you're you're told to do charity at least from you know and I really mean no offense to anybody who knows me who gives money to charity I'm not saying anything I'm also not being a [...] by like prefacing my statement because some people be you know whatever but I'm just going to keep it real like I know plenty of people who give tons of money to Charities but they're Charities that mean something to them they're not just random Charities do you know what I'm saying like it oh because I had this disease I want to give to that thing so because that has value to me okay I'm glad that you're giving the charity for sure but like okay it means something to you but then something else means something to somebody else so now do we have to have somebody else who has money to has the tra tragedy happened to them so that they can give to that thing I'm just saying like my teacher Andre says this all the time he's like you love your kids do you love all kids you love your husband do you love all husbands probably not you know like your your act of compassion is extended to your immediate circle and no further well that's where people make their sacrifices they do make sacrifice a lot within their immediate circle within their immediate circle yeah but I'm saying as a culture we're not that's not that's not disgust you know like that's not really kind of yeah yeah yeah talked about so that so that's that's the idea of a culture on a whole but you know again just going back to my point like I just feel like as a culture there was a trauma you know what I'm saying and to your point we are not discussing it because on the outside on the veneer it looks like business as usual people got richer some people got poorer there's a whole lot of bad things that happen in the middle but we are right where we are you know about 4 four years ago wondering who's going to win you know Trump or Biden is you know stuff at the border you know what I'm saying like it's just an eerie repetitious cycle and I'm going in myself and the conversations I'm having I'm thinking no no no you can never be the same person twice no matter how hard you try you can't motivate yourself to do something that you used to do for the same reasons you have to find a new reason to do that now even if it's the same thing and the same actions that get you to that same point you can't do that it won't work again you you already know the answer to that question so there's no curiosity there's no passion there's no drive to work you towards the other side you know what's funny about that from that level it just hit me it just hit me like even after the financial C collapse of 2008 more [...] happened in the aftermath of that there was Occupy Wall Street yep right there were all those kinds of things this is like kind of like everything's kind of like flittering away way around this right it's eerie but your kind of idea is more like this was a trauma and we're talking about essentially repression again yeah we're trying to develop maybe a theory of why things got repressed I thre up maybe part of the theory might be like well maybe because it just was in the end like just not a very satisfactory experience and so there's nothing you know if you if you come out of something and you feel like okay I did a good I did a good job there was a heroic thing you know we we went through something together like good emotions coming out of the end of it you know I mean yeah I know the good emotions came out at the end there was good feelings of being able to go out again see people again socialize again but it wasn't like there wasn't a lot of healing no on the deeper level like yeah now you're feeling like got like um okay well there was like some drug companies made some money and you know some real estate companies made some money and yeah yeah online retailers made money you know yeah Amazon got bigger you know whatever it was and and there was no there was no Community catharsis right no no that we kind of on the same page with that yeah so maybe that why is is a like on a collective level why people want don't want to look back guess when you get to the individual level then it becomes how many people are carrying the impacts of that forward or something you know were people affected by a confrontation with mortality that they swallow around them or confrontation affected by fragility of things that speak to people you know where people like what you were talking about throughout the beginning and throughout the whole thing this idea like okay I'm gonna relook at my life we started this podcast during the pandemic right idea maybe we're gonna like people gonna be looking at their lives in new ways or something so the question is like did that happen on an individual level you know I guess that becomes like a case-by case question because it's not gonna happen for everybody yeah but you know I mean to what extent did that happen you know what I mean MH and I was thinking about like our discussing this I was like you know it's interesting like when I look at people's lives around me that didn't happen too much like you know most people I know didn't carry that much out of that to be if I'm honest about it but you might feel differently you know or maybe hearing different things for people but to me it looks like you know same same stuff you know same things people are kind of like there weren't that there wasn't like the existential um you know Quakes that went through there were little Windows where this like seem like okay are people going to go back to work for the same amounts of money you know are people going to relook at their lives and decide they want to do different things and all that but I don't know I I was thinking the grooves of the culture Run Deep on a collective level and how it impacts on an individual level and I was just like I don't know I don't know if like I don't know if that many of the carriages that are running in those ruts got top of all of the ruts and went someplace else I don't know if that really happened or not but what do you think I mean you're talking with people about this yeah impacted did people change in major ways I can't tell so I could say that some people had brought this to my attention today so I'm very appreciative of that they they said that that people who they work with at least in their company which is good side it's a global company uh are are more take vacations more regularly they because you don't know so they're more willing to travel and then if I think about the Boom in the travel industry after the stuff started to get lifted was was huge there was people you know there was I don't have all the the the numbers in front of me because I didn't know and part of it because I didn't know where this conversation was going to go um yeah you know that like there was increased numbers in Travelers in 2022 and 2023 than in 20 than going from 2018 to 2019 you know what I'm saying so like there was a a bit of an exuberance you know on on that front began to go out to like experience the world again yeah yeah and so I think that's definitely that's a positive kind of change as people like taking the moment especially after you don't know that it's coming but again I look at this as like a um as a as a again as a trauma and so what are the ways and and this is a question that I I want to talk about just before we kind of finish here because this is a little bit of what I wanted to do from a psychological perspective from a practitioners perspective or whatever what are the ways in which people respond to traumas and what are the ways in which that we can help them work work through them if you will you know what I'm saying so I I'll I'm asking you and then I'll you know I'll let you go first because I want hear what you have in mind with this and I'll tell my answer around yours around this particular issue uhuh yeah well I I'm make it I'm gonna make it broad I want to make it just just kind of trauma in general you know what I'm saying because I think because because the point of what you were talking about earlier is that on one hand you have uh communal experience which can look like something from the outside as the same as it was before because the powers that be are still in in the same positions that they were the pieces on the chessboard are still in the same spots but what I'm saying is that like they've been moved around they just look the same now because they've been pushed back to those positions but that is the way there is is different you know what I'm saying and so because of this on an individual level I don't want to like say well okay obviously we know traumas are different right you know uh and I'm not going to qualify that statement for anybody to get mad at me to say that one thing is worse than another we're going to just call them traumas and whatever you know but everyone's going to react to them a little bit differently but from a from a trauma standpoint when someone comes in to the clinic and they have trauma I think um one of the first things that I will ask that person is have they done any processing with it first because sometimes it doesn't even come up until until later in conversation because they forgot it yeah yeah yeah many times you know you asked somebody something about their life oh tell me more about that time period and then inevitably Eric as you know because you've seen far more patients than I have in this lifetime you know yeah yeah but like it comes up they go oh yeah I forgot about that again to your point repression so the first thing in my mind that you have to do is bring it up to the light of your awareness this is like you know the way I view awareness is that it's a light shining around like a you know flashlight or a spotlight or something like this so you have to bring it to the level of your awareness first just for you to be conscious that that thing exists and once it's conscious that it exists then you have to really take stock as to how deep is this thing sunk in you is it in your body super deep does it live in your mind super deep is it both you know and how much is it living with you as in specifically does it or how does it affect your activities of daily living your thinking the way you interact with people on a conscious level we can't know unconscious until it becomes conscious so hence my first point you know what I'm saying so you got to find how it lives within your life and then and then once you have that those kind of two things down in my opinion then you can begin to start to start to work towards remedies on making it less prevalent for you in such a way that you can find Space find Space find Space till eventually learn the lesson that is there for you get some insight make some changes or you know changes that even have to be bad it could be good and then you can let it go you know and let it go in such a way that that thing as we always say you take your life as your teacher you can take that experience as a teacher for you even a tough one you know there's still lessons in there for you easy for me to say in this position right now because you know I've worked through some things and I haven't worked through other things that people have had that I haven't in vice versa you know but this is generally generally the process that I would be uh looking at yeah so I'm trying to think of how to frame this thing you I suppose I admire like a Carl Jung type person so I'll go back to his kind of way of talking and maybe the things you figure out once you know the like you're ident you're talking about like you have to identify the disaffected the person they have to identify that for themselves right yeah yeah I can remember with my psych Mentor Michael him saying to me one time well you know you abused right and just going was I you know was I or was I not and then you know when you if you described it you'd be like well that dude was abused but from that subjective Vantage Point sometimes you don't think of it that way right it doesn't come through that way yeah so then I suppose you know you're what you're talking about you have to have the recognition of that to go and say oh yeah this was something that was significant enough for me that it made an impact and I am still holding that in some way so I'm going to identify that as a thing now and really put a name on it put an arrow on it and say it's thing then I guess my natural instinct would to go again following in this more Carl kind of logic that wasn't the Carl Yung thing this is this thing of going okay so how did this affect this person damage their self-esteem we talked about this issue kind of recently with some of the stuff we were talking about but did it damage their self-esteem well then that's the thing we pay attention to have to reestablish a sense of their own self-esteem because this trauma undermined that how do we do that well we get their personality to feel more resilient we get their personality to feel like they're more engaged they feel more self-sufficient and so on that's the way to respond to trauma right sometimes maybe it's more of a situation where there's so much repressed emotion and repressed memories thoughts you know going on in that that it's like eating them away in some way creating a lot of physical symptoms creating a lot of disturbances in their behavior okay now we got to identify that that's maybe a different methodology a different modality you know ization physical symptoms out of the emotional traumas right or emotional or intellectual whatever it is I had kind of a funny realization what this I was sharing with someone dear to my heart where I was like you know we say emotional but there's always intellectual stuff in the emotional trauma too there's thoughts and ideas there not just emotions there's something weird about even how we talk about that we break things up as if they're separate you have your thoughts and your emotions why would they be separate you know to be Zen about it why would they so we have a cultural tendency to do that that you're tions it's your emotions that are repress there's thoughts and ideas in those emotions too right you know they're not just pure emotion you know there's memory and there's thoughts Concepts that you have associated with that so you know maybe that's another way of thinking about that to try to like get rid of those things that are semantization stuff maybe for some people they walk away with a feeling of like inauthenticity it's maybe more like the Carl Rogers thing that we like to talk about right so their response to their trauma is they walk away with a loss of the sense of themselves who they really are yeah right yeah they feel confused about who they are they feel confused about where their core is right they feel confused about who they should be and what they should be pursuing and what their Destinies are that's a kind of a trauma right what you do you have to go back with the person help them reconnect to that part of themselves right so I Carl Rogers idea there is she said a safe environment for them yeah they can feel understood accepted but it can be honest and that will help the person start to heal from that right and that will allow them to rou to reconnect to who they are right maybe for some people what happens is they walk away with a sense of like nihilism they walk away with a sense ofm they walk away with a sense of like anomy if we want to use like fancy terms right purposelessness right that I think is the that's the real where Yung is talking Yung you know people who walk away with that feeling well then they need to catch some other part of themselves that either gives them maybe intellectual meaning that's the right word intellectual emotional meaning things they believe in you know or maybe they tap into parts of themselves that are rich and creative and deep and that allows them to find parts either that they the one's more existential I'm gonna create meaning I'm gonna figure out what's important to me what matters this is how I'll build my my sense of like solving that problem I won't live in this sea of like okay disillusionment right a rebuild what I think has actual meaning and this will become the core of who I am right it's kind of existential approach or maybe the creative approach like we might be more like a Carl Yung you know I'm going to go through I'm going to tap to the the deeper creative psychospiritual impulses within me and then that will be how I refin my meaning and my purpose right so I kind of threw out possible consequences you know what I mean my way of thinking about it are you holding everything inside it's eating you away physically emotionally distorting your behavior that's repression that has to come out right yeah yeah is it more like it ruined your sense of your own self-confidence that's maybe like an Al other thing psychologically I need to refine that did it go through and um uh you know make me lose my sense of myself and who I truly am that's a Carl Rogers thing you need to find that tap into the core of who you are again they leave you disillusioned and without meaning and you're flat or you're lost in that sense you need to re either rebuild a meaning existential humanism or you go through and you tap into the Richer parts of what the Richer parts of being the creative Parts you know um you know those deeper parts that people have and there's some propositions you know yeah so I mean I guess it's I guess if it's around this then that's probably the still the same proposal yeah exactly right the only thing that gets me in the end Daniel is I'll say one last thing because I think there's a fascination with trauma in the culture right now and I don't think it's wrong I think it's good right we're acknowledging that this is a thing right we both had our experiences I had things growing up I had illnesses you had things where you had to go off the combat we've all had our experiences that were you know traumatic right that were deeply affecting but the other part that was a curse to me with this again speaking from a personal place with this from my own experience is it can't all be directed towards the past either right yeah it has to be something where you start to say okay how should my life look now to me and how do I make it go to where it looks now because then otherwise I don't think just focusing on the traumas from the past or something solve anything I think it has to translate into something where your life transforms that's Tandra right the world has to transform to match something trer for who you are right but like and until that happens and my own subjective experience with this we talked about before none of this will feel right so maybe that's something to like think about with patience too you know what would be what would be the vision of this that would make you feel right sure because otherwise then you I think otherwise you still are going to always have these lingering senses of trauma because you feel like somehow it's holding you back or you never really found you know the life that you'd want to have now right and that's what I thought about with the pandemic thing because I think the the gears got shaken a little bit but I know if they went off the rails all the gears relocked but maybe for some people what you're describing is the gears relaxed but like that doesn't feel comfortable for them anymore right you know those gears went back okay I guess I can live in these gears but now I have to reframe what I think my life is that never happened I know does that make sense why I'm trying to say there it does I think it doesn't give enough credit to the shock of of the initial we don't know what's going to happen you know we don't know what what what tomorrow is going to be we don't know how long we're going to be in this thing for some people who have Financial stuff we don't know how long you're going to be without work for we you immediate things where you're struggling just on like a level of just surviving right right right and it's not something that you can that you're experiencing on your own that you're experiencing it with a whole swath of other people simultaneously you know part of what was interesting to you were you kind of interesting in like how this affected people more long term like one the idea like there are there are repressed feelings and thoughts around this and so maybe that's something that we have to look at again as culture that's part of what you're talking about right for sure and then maybe the other part is for some people it made them question things but did that like translate into activity that actually change the trajectory what they I mean that that's only only an individual can answer that yeah that's you know but I mean are you seeing that is that what people are asking clinically about themselves you're talking to the patient like yeah I was Shak up much so to your point about like trauma always causing you to look back you're looking back in order to live now more freely oh that would be like that would be theraputic activity right I don't have anything against that at all I understand that yeah that's what I'm saying is that like people are coming in or they're talking about this and they're feeling run down irritable frustrated sad whatever and then once I start to kind of like scratch and start to ask deeper questions it go it they I'm looking at their experience from this as a as a as a time you know and the more time that goes on the more stuff that gets lumped in because we haven't we haven't cut it we haven't said okay this part is finished it's still it's still happening the wound is still moving on because it's not done technically it's not done right like it's not finished so you're without that sense of finality it's just an open-ended thing that just continues to to unfold in the way that it is and to your point from a societal level it's like no business business is usual people buying [...] people selling [...] I can't say like people's lives look that different they look like the same lives that human beings had in this culture before the pandemic it didn't change that much looks like the same thing on the outside on the outside that's the question I guess right right you know and what yeah and what I'm what my my my P is that on the inside it is okay and that I I'll I'll definitely bite I'll definitely bite and go okay yeah I can I can see what you're talking about obviously we agree on that part yeah yeah the only I guess I'm adding to it is like um again this is a very particular way in which I see things but like again if this was a shaking experience then um you know part of it is like did it make you re the existential part did it make you rethink your life because that was what was being talked talked about at the time yes people are going their lives they're going to rethink what has meaning I don't know the answer to this how many people did that I don't know the answer I don't know the answer question how many people got shaken up enough where they were like okay I'm gonna do my life differently because it was talked about but right I think some of the static comes from the observation and the answer and those two things not aligning is that they did they did reflection and they said maybe yes I would like to do some I would like to do my life different or I'd like to make some changes and either they didn't make changes or the ones they made didn't have it really satisfied the things that they said they wanted to when they said if this if this thing ever ends I'm G to do blank I'm gonna be blank I'm gonna spend more blank do you know what I'm saying that and like that that discrepancy is something that has not been closed back up it has not resealed you know what I'm saying and so there's been some positive changes for some but others who are again looking to remotivate themselves the same thing they were doing before and they can't make it happen because they're not that same person and I think part of the reason is that they haven't reconciled those those pieces that were changed during this during that time period you know and I just have you know on the outside society's going to continue to move forward as it does because again there are Market forces that are pushing it forward and people have responsibilities and so on and so forth as adults they're going to do XY and z and it's not to like over therapize the the population you know in a in a sense that like every body needs to have therapy or or whatever the case is but also everybody should you know what I'm saying like I you know what I mean like not to say that you need it but it's to say that like if you're not working on you then who is yeah yeah yeah on the shur of wisdom there's an uh yum quote that goes something like if people don't show curiosity about themselves that's always a bad sign or something like that right right I guess I was so affected by the KL Rogers thing in this too if we want to say this was a traumatic event jostled people's existential humanist roots or something yeah and I'm always sensitive to the point like well if that's the case this stuff should look different on the other end and this just doesn't look different on the other end whatever that means for you as a person you know however you would change the trajectory of what you were doing then you know um then then nothing too much happened yet now you're saying that some of what happened was things got reput into the bottle right we put the toothpaste back in the tube and yeah so maybe like the conclusion on the episode is we went through kind of how people would feel about trauma maybe the people are listening can go huh do I feel like any of these things happen to me yeah you know I I I have something I didn't acknowledge like what you were bringing up I need to shine the light on myself and see yeah and the other parts would be oh am I caring things around inside me that I'm not knowing or I it affect my self-esteem or did it like disturb my identity sense of myself and who I want to be my more ideal versions of who I am or break my sense of meaning yeah those are all things you can look at right and because we're not that far removed from it it's hard and and because there's not like so again we'll use 911 as an example 911 happened on 911 and on 912 there was no more 911 you know what I'm saying like that's it and so then we move forward and yes there's Wars and there's whatever but you can see that that thing bled into the culture you know yes and created numerous riffs but it part of it is that you're able to have you know pre and poost pre and poost and so what I'm saying is that this event is an elongated event it's kind of like you know yeah negative negative scenario that was prolonged over a a year was it a year can we call it a year can we call it a year and a half is it two is it two and a half I know we're wrapping this up but there did have some impacts on some of the people that I know that were kind of strange like I knew some people who were really sciency and the medicine got so weird that left them like okay I guess I don't believe in science and medicine the same way I used to I mean there were impacts yeah me I wasn't thinking about that before but I know people who like they came out like they're Mr like believe the science and whatever and then when this all panned out in the end they were like well wait a minute what just happened here this wasn't that great medicine didn't do what it was supposed to do yeah D being done and not the effects that were promised and money was made and they were disillusioned right so maybe it's another example of like people's personalities affected I think you're probably right then you know maybe I have to rethink that too and I have to you know that's what I'll maybe take away from this episode too yeah about that myself and go okay what did happen to the people around me who maybe were more affected by this yeah I mean and like I said part of it is just it's to push you know you gave it you know a number of different uh psychological schools of thought or psych Psy psychologists uh application for for therapy different kind of impacts or something like that yeah yeah but the first thing that we both agreed on in all of them is you have this has to be brought to the level of your awareness without that you cannot start anything you cannot begin anything um and that's your fundamental Point behind the episode your fundamental point is like and I'm I got it in the beginning but it gets clarified as we go it's like just to ring a bell to say Hey listen something really major happened and people are not dealing with it yeah yeah and some of it's on that Collective level whatever the reasons are we speculate on reasons why that might be and some of that's more on an individual level yes and so maybe it's time we start really looking at what that actually did yeah yeah yeah and so that's the you know we we like we do like to get conversations beginning for folks and um so yeah so we're we are I'm legitimately interested in hearing because this is not something that I walked around with it just kept coming hey hey hey hey and then event I'm like okay I'm going to observe it I'm going to make you know public comment on it and and we're going to have a conversation and see how it goes and uh here we are so yeah the main point of like this hasn't been processed correct this hasn't been processed because it's quite because it hasn't been ended to be totally honest it's like we're just trying to sweep it under the rug and like now there's a big old bump and we're tripping over that bump in the rug because it's just like you know you can't avoid it yeah that's an interesting point I get it I get it all right sweet well we are interested in hearing people's thoughts so as I mentioned earlier and you know for people who've been rocking with us um if you're not a subscriber definitely please do so it and it helps us out in the algorithm for sure to reach more people so if you're you know a fan or a hater you know we'll take both of your subscriptions it's equally as important to us so you know please uh like comment subscribe uh hit us up comments like I just said but on uh Instagram JY and Tantra podcast uh email JY and Tantra we do respond we do get back to people you know um it's you know this is a this is a we're brought to you by us you know what I'm saying like we are our SP like SES Street or something the letter Y and that's right the letter Y and random dark chocolate you know like stuff found in the couch in your pocket it's all good it's literally antimicrobial um so anyways Eric thank you so much for for coming on with me yeah thanks Dan interesting proposition to say hey let's like relook at this and see what the lingering effects are that's that's the quintessential thing you're trying to get at yeah yeah exactly so people think right yeah see what people think if we get and if we get enough response from from folks we would we'll be happy to do like a follow-up episode to kind of share some of people's experiences so um you know please do hit us up we we really do appreciate it um Eric as always thank you so much audience thank you so much for listening give us all those the love that you can we definitely appreciate it it it intensifies it amplifies our motivation to do what we've been doing even without motivation so imagine imagine more my God I can't even I couldn't even do it anyways um for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace