Thanks for tuning in to Jhana and Tantra. As always, please subscribe and share. We once again have the utmost pleasure in having on Professor Robert Thurman. He is a talented popularizer of the Buddhist teachings and the first Westerner to be ordained by His Holiness the Dalai Lama as a Tibetan Buddhist monk. A charismatic speaker and author of many books on Tibet, Buddhism, art, politics, and culture. Professor Thurman was named by The New York Times as the leading American expert on Tibetan Buddhism and was awarded the prestigious Padma Shri Award in 2020 for his help in recovering India's ancient Buddhist heritage. Time magazine chose him as one of the 25 most influential Americans in 1997, describing him as a larger-than-life scholar-activist destined to convey the Dharma, the prestigious teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha, from Asia all the way to America. His own search for enlightenment began while he was a university student at Harvard. After an accident in which he lost the use of an eye, Professor Thurman left school on a spiritual quest throughout Europe, the Middle East, and Asia. He eventually found his way to India, where he first saw His Holiness the Dalai Lama. After learning Tibetan and studying Buddhism, Professor Thurman became a Tibetan Buddhist monk. And some years later, however, offered up his robes when he realized he could be more effective in the American equivalent of a monastery, the university, and thus returned to Harvard to finish his PhD. A quote from Professor Thurman. I invite you to embrace a new reality. I invite you to awaken to the infinite life you already have, no matter what your worldview. I invite you to take up responsibility for your own destiny. I invite you to take advantage of your priceless humanness to make a definitive turn towards ultimate security, complete freedom, and unbounded happiness. In this episode of Gen and Tantra, we discuss Professor Thurman's new book, Wisdom is Bliss. And the link can be found in the description of this video if you are interested in purchasing it. We do a sort of verbal Rorschach test with Professor Thurman and get his thoughts on a wide variety of topics in the book and so much more, including the importance of education and the suffering of change, experiencing all gain and no pain, having fun on the spiritual path, happiness pushing people away from positions of power, the orgasmic potency, and some plans for West Virginia. Enjoy the episode.

Welcome to Gen and Tantra, spirituality with a twist. The podcast that takes Tantrism, Buddhism, Daoism, Sufism, Kabbalism, Shamanism, Chinese Medicinism, and all of the other isms we've been influenced by and blends them into a tall, crisp, cool cocktail your spirit has been longing for.

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Now, isn't that refreshing?

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Hey fellow Gen and Tantra listeners, those of you who like our spirituality with a twist, well, as you will know from the intro to the episode, we are once again joined by, I'm going to say, both the blissfully wise and wisely blissful Robert Thurman, Professor [laughter] Thurman. This time discuss his new book Wisdom is Bliss. Uh So great to see you again Professor Thurman.

That's right.

Um

My book Wisdom is Bliss.

There it is. Yeah.

really it's really is bliss, too. I'm so happy they they my editor, wonderful editor at Hay House, she had it come out publication date was my 80th birthday.

Oh, fantastic.

really great birthday present to see it finally come out. So, um okay.

So we read it all we read it all

wise and wise but fun but actually I'm I'm some often I'm not blissful and often I'm stupid. But other than that, especially when I talk about it I get a little bit blissful and a little bit wise.

Well, the the book is full of it.

into it.

Full of all kinds of wisdom wisdom and bliss. So it's a fascinating book and it was an interesting thing. Daniel and I both finished it and you know we were reading away.

so good.

We felt like students we were back in the day being students in our in our undergrad years reading away like crazy.

Like crazy getting getting ready for the book report.

Yeah.

[laughter]

And it's it's it's it's a it's a fascinating book. It's you know an authentic a presentation and explanation of the Buddhist eightfold path but then you sort of use it as a vehicle and a starting off point to present what I see as a vision for spirituality for modern people overall. So it's really wonderful. And then you know you talk about uh for for our purposes to talk about the entire eightfold path in one conversation even if we were to talk about you know one of the eightfold path would probably eat up a whole episode. So we thought what we would do is just throw out some of the key words I think and concepts in the book. Daniel described it as a spiritual Rorschach test. We'll throw you some words

[laughter]

and you can share your impressions and experiences of those words and that would be a way of doing the interview. So

All right.

What struck me is the title and I have to say you you know you're saying wisdom is bliss I'm so immersed in this Buddhist worldview that I was like, yeah, wisdom is bliss. I'm in.

[laughter]

And I stared at it for a week, you know, without it hitting me that wait a minute, this is a play on words of ignorance is bliss. The classic American phrase like I didn't even occur to me that there was a play on words there. And then it hit me, oh, that's really clever because my feeling of American culture a lot of times is there's this attitude of don't look too close at anything. Don't look too close. Kind of like the old William Burroughs book Naked Lunch. Don't look too close what's on the plate. Just keep your eyes closed. And I was wondering how you thought about that cuz the title seemed to me then to be invitation to ask people to like overcome that resistance of looking close and now really start looking in a more I think one of your other favorite words is realistic way.

That's right. That's right. Realism. They thought for a while that they would make that the title cuz that's one of my slogans. You could say is that Buddhism is realism. And that is the way I understand it because what Buddha's message to the world was from his own attainment is that reality itself is bliss. And therefore it's wisdom that knows that reality by becoming it. And that's why wisdom is bliss. In other words, that's a But what's the problem that I was addressing here in in writing this book in this way, which is a little bit going out on a limb in the Buddhist world, which is why I say it's not really about Buddhism this book. It's more about Buddhadharma. You know, I'm very and I'm very I mean that because A, the Dalai Lama, I follow him. And he's my teacher and friend since 60 almost 60 years now, 57 actually. And [snorts] exactly. And um he is against the idea that anybody should convert anybody to anything. Because being in belonging to this or to that is not that particularly helpful necessarily. Unless you belong to where you grew up at, and then it might be helpful that you belong because it makes your friends and relatives and grandma particularly happy. You know, that you're still wherever she thinks you should be, wherever she is.

Well, that's why I confirmed in Catholicism. That was for my grandma.

[laughter]

That's right. So he So he says he says, "Just keep your Everyone should keep their grandmother's religion."

Mhm.

And but they can Everyone should educate themselves on the other hand. And you can And different different traditions that are thought of as religious often have curricula for educate to educate yourself. And the secular humanism, which he considers a world religion of 1 billion followers, approximately, you know, sort of non-religious, who they call themselves non-religious, therefore they're secular. He could but he considers their own fa- calling to be a a religion, really, you know, adopted with that same fervor that people adopt a religion, although it's an ideology. And he thinks they should keep that one if that's the good for them, but all but all in all should be educated. And then the Buddhist tradition came from Buddha's own original Buddhism on that morning when he attained enlightenment, when he said he had discovered that reality itself is bliss. It is deathless. It is It is uncreated. It's always been that way. It's just a guess, you know, he just said

[laughter]

Really, James Brown is in in a entertaining mode, he said exactly what Buddha said, you know, "I feel good and I knew that I would."

[laughter]

And And that's what Buddha really said. And but then then he said, "Well, you know, folks, like Socrates said, he said the unexamined life, when you don't know what you do what you are, who you are, where you are, why you are, when you don't know that, then you're actually going to be unhappy. And you're not going to be happy because you won't be satisfied. You'll have pleasure, what you call pleasure, but then you won't be happy cuz it won't last. It's called the suffering of change in his way. And you're also it won't be enough cuz you will think of some better way it could have been and you'll be dissatisfied with it. So, he said and but then people unfortunately they fastened on that one and they said, "Oh, Buddhists. Oh, yeah, they want you to be miserable." You know, that's the whole Buddhist thing. And I recently read someone, I won't say the name, but very wonderful, lovely person who knows studied a lot of different religions and has her own kind of view of things, very helpful and sweet and pleasant and love is in it and so on. But somehow think and has a lot of Buddhist friends, but somehow thinks that what Buddha discovered is that you have to annihilate yourself. You extinguish yourself. What Nirvana is is you just let go of everything and you're gone, you're extinguished. And that's so wrong. That's so absolutely not correct.

You know what struck me in the book uh

extinguished is suffering gets extinguished. You When you discover the reality, suffering is gone. You realize that suffering is an illusion. And and that the play of illusion and that doesn't mean you leave the world of suffering in the sense that other people who you care about are still there. So, you haven't extinguished yourself at all. You become in fact everything. You feel that you are everything and you feel that in a blissful way. And the way you do that is you're not just with your conceptual mind because the other neat thing about Buddha was he said, "I feel great. I really do. And I know everything, but I'm so sorry I can't explain it to you." He said that because it's inexpressible. It's such a surprise. You just can't imagine it. Amazing grace, you know, they say, you know, and that's right. It is amazing grace. It's so amazing that you never would have expected that you could be that blissful, you know. But now the key is how do you How do you get it? You melt into it. You You know what? You don't get it. It gets you. But when it gets you, it doesn't extinguish you. It kindles you to infinite life.

Mhm.

And that's what uh you know, there is a view that some Buddhists even have that somehow they're just seeking extinction because human beings have a strong escapist streak. You know, when they're sensitive and they're bothered about things, you know, they kill themselves or they they seek extinction. Certain kinds of soporific drugs who are addicted to them, they're trying to annihilate their consciousness, you know. And of course, when you're being drilled, you want to be unconscious, you know, when some of the take when the dentist is drilling, you know. So, that's normal pain we really don't like. But there is a But reality is there's no pain. No pain. And everything is gained though. No pain and everything gained. That's the thing.

That's really fascinating cuz one of the other words that jumped out in the book for me is definitely like fun. And I wrote it in my notes with like an exclamation point.

[laughter]

So, it's the idea that you like, you know, you're you're you're really

the thing, you know, I have I have I have another friend who shall be unnamed, but is a wonderful guy. And he was really going off lately. He has in his writing he's a writer on joy. And he's really got joy and he loves it and it's great. Joy is really great. But then he was ranking on fun. He was like, "Oh, who needs fun? Fun, that's a child." Or that's fundamentalism and that blah blah blah. He was going on about fun, but then he was going on talking about the joy of children. Well, when are they joyful? When they have fun. So, you know, I decided I was going to rehabilitate fun. But I also I'm fun-loving. So, so that's the thing. [laughter] Why why why do we have to do without fun? Naturally, we will. And that's a way of helping people cheer up. You know, another title I thought of, but the problem with the thought is is I get so so vulgar I can't even say that. But it's it's uh it has an acronym. C T F U. That's the acronym. And the first two words are cheer the

[laughter]

That's my message. Cheer the

Yeah.

Exclamation point at the end.

That's right.

Yeah.

And because, you know, here's the thing. We're having a terrible time. We have lunatics in power all over the world, not just in our own government. And we have, you know, there's a few good people, but they're drowned out by the loonies. And um although we're trying to change that now, which is we should. But the point is and then all the countries, you know. But that's only because the happier people are not power-hungry. So, they don't tend to become the leaders. The leaders are miserable people who think they'll be happy if they and everybody else.

[snorts]

And prevent anybody else from having more fun than them. And meanwhile, they can't have fun because they're so uptight. And so therefore, they rise to the power. And then they ruin everything. So, we somehow we have to have I we need people who are having a good time, but who cheerily want to help those really unhappy people retire. And go cheer up themselves by not having big responsibility which they don't know how to wield for the benefit of anyone, even themselves. So, so that's my theory of why we're really in a good place on the planet because the have there are so many more happy people. But but uh we're we're that's that's hidden from us by the fact that the leadership everywhere is a bunch of weirdos who are really frustrated and they and they've reached these pinnacles of power, you know, like they have billion-dollar mansions down on the Black Sea or they have they live in the old Chinese emperors, you know, the country club. You see they And meanwhile [snorts] they're even more miserable than ever. So, then they cause more problems.

This kind of like fits into some of the American idea of like retirement and almost waiting until you retire to then start living your life. You know, like you work your entire life just to be happy at the last, you know, few years and then everything else before that's kind of a slog and all of a sudden, now I have all the time in the world, but most people haven't cultivated anything within themselves. Maybe they have a hobby or maybe not.

That's right. And then they can retire. And meanwhile some corporate raider probably has come in and trashed their pension fund.

[laughter]

And they come back to like working like that woman in What was that movie? That lady living in a trailer who had little jobs in in a in a Walmart or in a in an Amazon warehouse.

Oh, yeah, I forgot the name of that movie.

hanging out in this camp in the desert out there in Arizona.

It came out last year, I believe.

Yeah, that was that was a really like the Nomad Nomad Nomad.

Oh, no, I haven't seen that one yet. I heard of it. Yeah.

It was a it was a brilliant thing, really, but so so so there was no pension fund for her, so she didn't have a retirement, you know, but she found a little community out in the desert briefly, you know. But that's that's a terrible situation because of the of again these unhappy people think that they'll be happy when they have billions of dollars. And then they prove that how miserable they are because the minute they get that billion many billions, they lose their family. You know, cuz they think that's not fun enough. And then they leave for Mars. And they're planning to go up there [laughter] and they're going to have french fries with Matt Damon in a quantum hat.

[laughter]

They're not They're not serving french fries to their employees, but they're going to have french fries themselves. And you know, Matt Damon was growing potatoes there, right? While he was waiting for the rescue.

Yeah, I think Yeah, potatoes is the is the right the right term, you know.

Is that what they called them?

Well, because he needed to use his feces in order for fertilizer in that movie.

Yeah, that's the part I missed. I missed that part.

Yeah.

That's soil, you know, that's what that was That's the Chinese agricultural specialty, you know.

At least they'll be some use for like those people's

Now they'll have use for it, right?

They can use for their

[laughter]

So what struck me in the book, Professor Thurman, was

Nobody has taught Buddhism as really fun and happiness, and you don't even have to join as a religion. And that's the key thing. And you you know, you can keep with grandma's religion, but you can help her lighten it up. You know what I mean? Also, once you learn a little something about how your mind works, you can lighten it up.

It struck me that there's kind of a ground path results part of what you're saying there, too. That in a way, [snorts] you know, this is kind of a Buddhist way of framing things, right? The ground, the path, and the result.

Oh, yeah.

And it's kind of saying like the ground itself is this sea of bliss, and you use different terms through that throughout the book. That's the ground. And the result will be eventually you'll get it. You don't get it now, but you'll get it someday.

Yes.

And then And a path in between to connect those things. And I have to say that like that's its own bliss and fun, too, in the sense that you get to learn about yourself and the people around you and what the meaning of things are. And there's a joy in that. And I don't know if that's always presented that way.

They're amazing. People are if you take time to really observe them and really see their own inner wisdom and inner like contentment and inner like solid you know like stability and stuff. People are just amazing. They really are incredible. And we normally just rush by them, you know, and know their name and then we don't look twice, you know.

I I was reflecting on my own experience with this. When I first started practicing, my first experiences were in Zen. And I had some great Zen masters from Japan that I studied with.

Wonderful. I love Zen.

Yeah. And it was it was interesting though cuz when I look back at my own psychology as I was reading your book, I was thinking about this and I was going, you know, this I wasn't thinking about this as fun. It became fun as I did it. But there was a part of me that almost felt like an odd American guilt. I felt like all my other friends are off working their hard jobs and doing their hard things. And I felt like this vaguely guilty feeling like I should be out in some corporate setting feeling crappy. And here I am almost like a little I felt some odd feeling of guilt or something. It was strange looking back. And I I did feel kind of a bodhicitta. I was thinking, okay, I'm going to try to do this so I can help other people. I had some of that feeling. You know, and that helped me feel less guilty.

[laughter]

But I felt I felt a little guilty.

spirit of enlightenment

Yeah.

You know, I don't mind people using the word bodhicitta, but what drives me crazy is that English-speaking people write bodhicitta. And nobody will say cha unless they're Italian. They're going to say bodhicitta. or bodhicitta And yet they won't put an H there because in Sanskrit transliteration, you're You're to just put a C. Uh, because there is a CH. Where you aspirate, you practically spit to say this.

[laughter]

But but it is it just is you know, anyway, never mind. For spirit of enlightenment, yeah, good for you. That's really great, Eric. So, you did good Zen. And you had Confucius attorney there, the guild's attorney. And you had

[laughter]

another the corporate office attorney. That's really good.

Well, it was sort of interesting cuz I don't know how you how often you feel like you see that in students, but there was this little feeling like I'm not being you know, I'm not doing what the you know, what maybe what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm not you know, and so is that something you you see Americans experiencing? Is that something you feel like you see in students that feel

Yeah, well, that's part of the cheer up. I can't tell you how many people just lately I've met who are doing different things. You know, I'm about to open I've been very dawdling the last step. But I'm about to open a Substack account to make a newsletter to people, you know.

Nice.

And then all of them people helping me and a lot of people that I didn't meet and knew they've just quit their job. Everyone has quit their job. You know, they're giving all this extra unemployment benefit and so forth. So, but then that's over now, but people are not coming back to whatever kind of regular road work they were doing and and they're somehow that they're looking for more they've they've had a retreat. What I call the coronapocalypse. Corona corona apocalypse. They've had the corona apocalypse. And they've been on a retreat. And they look for their bigger purpose in living and they want to be lit they want to live. So, they're not rushing back. You know, some have to temporarily, but then they want to stay and work from home. You know, they it's like really do we really had a change here thanks to this what has been a catastrophe of course for those who lost their life prematurely. That's really terrible. But on the other hand, it it really is bad and it was unnecessary and all that. But [snorts] but on the other hand, for everyone else, it's been a wonderful retreat. And a rediscovery of what life is about in a way.

Well, you mentioned uh Victor Frankl in your book at one point, you know, the great

Who Who was that?

You mentioned Victor Frankl in your book at one point, the great you know, psychologist psychiatrist, Victor Frankl.

Oh oh yeah yeah yeah.

Yeah, you mentioned him in the book and it's it's interesting cuz he's talking really about meaning. And we've like done episodes of the podcast on him and you know, I think that's what you're talking about there. I think it's a lot of people had this time to self-reflect and it's partially like I don't know if I'm enjoying my life, so that's the fun part. But it was also maybe the part where you're like, I don't know if I'm finding this meaningful anymore. The things that seem meaningful don't seem meaningful anymore. Maybe that's a little silver silver lining in a cloud, right?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's that he of course he was in a concentration camp, for a terrible situation he was in, but he found a meaning in being alive there. And and living there anyway and standing up for his own inner freedom, you know, that's why he how he made it through, you know. And it's really I really admire such people. I don't think I could make it. I would really freak out.

Well, he even talks about

I just don't think I have that kind of guts, you know. Although one thing I can say what I one thing that I've come since I since I see uh Buddha as a scientist who discovered that the nature of life is bliss and that the energy that the vital energy that is our health and life is a bliss energy that we all have. And uh cultures tend to suppress it in us in order to make us more manageable and hide death from us so that they'll get us working away in some treadmill, you know, version of of of duty. And uh and Buddha rebelled against it and he said, "No, everyone has the right not only to pursue happiness, but to be happy." And they can find it because that is their reality. And when they find that within their reality, they become naturally loving, they're naturally helpful to others, and they will naturally do whatever it takes to keep the, you know, society going and people fed, and, you know, you know, avoid violence with others, and so on. And so there's a much better way of going about it, and he's that view has been gradually gradually prevailing slowly against all the military crazies, male chauvinist patriarchal societies everywhere. And finally we're getting close to something really great I personally think. You know, in the Tibetan prediction, Indian and Tibetan prediction, it's about only 400 more years to go.

[laughter]

Right around the corner.

to go, and we'll be past Armageddon, you know. And type of Armageddon type of thing, Armageddon being like hundreds of years long of different world wars and things. And but [snorts] I don't agree with that. I think they're hiding the date. I think it's going to be maybe 30, 40 years, basically. I think it's very or even sooner. Actually in the '60s I thought it was next week.

[laughter]

Translate.

This is your Now I think maybe a few more years, but you know, maybe what Kurzweil calls the the the singularity, you know. But instead of being downloaded into robots, which would be really boring, he would never be saying that if he ever watched Doctor Who.

Oh, with the with the little exterminate exterminate

those little guys.

[laughter]

those little guys. What nonsense being downloaded into robots? Who wants that for that?

And the the Cybermen, too. That was the other big villain, right? That's like the two villains are there.

Yeah, Doctor Who is really has to deal with all these fantasies of these engineers, you know, who want to engineer themselves some sort of immortality, which is crazy, you know. Although although they you might be able to do it if you become hyperconscious, and you can go through death retaining your your continuum of joyfulness and happiness and lovingness and non-violent sort of gentle interconnectedness. And you can, you know, and that's what that's that's that's the good thing about the Buddhist education super educations as you as I put in the book, right?

Mhm.

Three super educations. That's what I have in there. But you know, so anyway, I I I love this. I really like my subtitle, too, the four friendly fun facts.

Oh, that's the kind of the thing about the the reframing the uh

What's that?

Reframing the four noble truths that everyone associates with suffering and let's flip it and make it into something that seems more uh fun and friendly.

fun facts.

Yeah, yeah.

I learned about fun facts recently from a friend of mine who was the CEO of a toy company, his own toy company they founded. And then he retired semi-retired by becoming the executive chairman. And there was a dinner where everybody had to tell their fun fact, which I had never done and I didn't know if I even had one with that.

[laughter]

So, I was waiting to see what other people would say and then he said, "Well, I want you to Well, my fun fact, he said, is that I'm the executive chairman of my company." And everybody was looking at, "What's fun about that?" Then he said, "Well, the thing is, unless you think that's not fun, what you should know is, to be executive chairman of a company, even one that you founded, he said, is like presiding over a cemetery. There are many people below you and no one is listening."

[laughter]

That's brilliant. I just love it. I My fun fact was not nearly that good, so I decided I'm going to write my fun fact. And then I was already working on At the time my working title for this book was Buddhas Have More Fun.

Uh

Not Buddhists. Not Buddhists. I know so many grim Buddhists

Mhm.

who think that that that nirvana is misery misery embraced. But but no, it's a but uh but uh we does we does have more fun.

How did you break out of that for yourself? Did you have any of that feeling at the beginning of Buddhism as some kind of almost stoic thing I was going to slog through?

I had a challenge from a friend of mine who who has passed away. Again, who shall be unnamed. Very good friend, really wonderful guy. Artist and had a lot of fun himself in the '60s as some of us did. And uh He said to me, "Ah, Nirvana, who wants it?" He said the the bliss, the fun is when you a little bit tense and uptight and then you break free of that and it's the release that is the bliss.

Mhm.

And so if you're permanently released, well, that's boring, he said. And he actually had an image for it. He said, "It would be like the entire universe, all of life was just one big giant jar of Vaseline." So I would live there I lived my Buddhist studies for 40 years since then under the challenge of that thing about maybe it's not more fun to be Nirvana, maybe it's some sort of I did straight extrapolation from fun into some sort of ultimate thing that's really beyond fun and no fun or something rather than fun. And so I was waiting for you know, I didn't have an answer and then I finally you know, maybe 20 years ago I I kind of got the I got this one clue, you see. Because a Buddha is defined as someone who masters death and who discovers that death is where where where death occurs is where you touch the full blast of the life force and it's more than a particular body can manage. And of course it usually happens to people when their body can't even manage walking around. But but you know, the the idea that we're going to be just inside our little skin and our sense anchor of our sense experiences and then we're going to control what's around us to make it nice and then then keep away any really horrible like A-bombs or hurricanes or tornadoes or whatever it might be you know terrorists or or regular idiots and um but that's really a losing proposition in the long run you know. And and so when what death is defined as in the Buddhist science in in the science developing from these enlightened people is where you release from the body and you feel the full force of the life force is everything that made your body and everybody. And the more you've sort of prepared yourself for that then you're not to be frightened. The ordinary person is frightened and wants immediately to resume control and then they go into the bardo as the Tibetans talk about you know and where they're where they're trying to find another similar body to the old one. And uh but the but the people who are the Buddha who is who's you know concentrated on opening up giving it up letting go then they let go everything then they become everything. Then they are one with every and then it's not just then the a lot of people will mistakenly think it's you become everything and you find that everything is nothing but just vast empty space because the Buddha mentioned emptiness

[clears throat]

and they think you're just all alone in empty space and then you don't feel guilty about your friends still in the corporate thing because in some way you're not even there.

[laughter]

The whole thing is an illusion so don't worry about it. It's one big illusion.

Yeah. Because you're you're you're you're not even not there. You're just like infinity. And that's a great experience but that's not the final thing because that's that's pure freedom in a way it's an experience of pure freedom and there's a release when you reach it. But then because you bring a momentum with you of reflective self-awareness although it's sort of suppressed when you first blast out. But then you need to get free from freedom. And then you have to you barrel right on through and then suddenly everything is back. And everyone is back. But now there's no barrier between you and all of it. You're the vast interconnectedness of all of it. And so then I could I was stuck. Well, maybe that's so boring cuz it's just all one flat thing or something, you know. Then I realized, wait a minute, no. Because so many of the people you love and you discover you love a lot more than you knew you loved. That that they are not enjoying it that same way. They don't feel completely free where they are. So then you realize you you you have the ability you're there with everyone in every place. And of course it's an unimaginable degree of you know, it's actually it's a the only illustration of it that I can resort to was in a Star Trek movie. Where Frank Converse, he was actor, and he was acting the Lieutenant somebody. And they encountered this computer, giant computer that had gone berserk called V'ger. They called

V'ger, yeah, that's Star Trek 1. I think it's Star Trek 1.

And V'ger wants to know everything cuz that was its mission, you know, it's its purpose. And and but it's devouring everything to know it, you know, and it's destroying everything. But she [snorts] has a nice voice, you know, V'ger.

She's very very pretty, too. I think the actress who ends up being V'ger's voice is very charming, pretty actress.

Earth and the home base of the Federation in San Francisco and the and the and the and the that that wonderful place on the near the Golden Gate Bridge. And but it's nothing personal. It's just what it is what it is. And the one thing I don't know is what it's like to be human. And they said, well, wait, if we can give you that knowledge, will you then leave the Earth alone and you won't have to do our anything?" Yeah, oh yeah, sure. That'd be fine. So, then Frank Converse, which is the name of the actor who was a friend of mine.

Oh, okay.

it. And um we had worked together in Martha's in in Nantucket in the restaurant in the in the summer years before. And Frank said, "He volunteered Captain Kirk I'll go I'll I will merge with the computer and then she can know me." And then Spock says, "No, no, I'll do the Vulcan mind meld." No, she didn't want Spock in his Vulcan mind meld. That's what happened. She wanted to be meant to be human. No, I'll merge [snorts] with it. It's okay. I don't know what will happen to it, but I'll merge. So, then he goes over and he sort of hugs V'ger. I don't remember what was the actual posture of lovemaking. He makes love with V'ger basically.

probably does. That's probably true.

[laughter]

I don't know what he does, but he embraces her and she embraces him and then there's this like the thing she dissolves into the vastness and joy and sort of there's a there's a voice like, "Bye. Now I know it's rain. I won't bother anybody." And but unfortunately Frank gives up his his previous life, but he says, "Don't worry guys, I'm happy, too."

That's very like almost tantric story.

That's that's what it's like. Okay. Now, wait. Now, wait. So, that's what it's like. So,

Professor Feldman, I just have to give away the punchline. V'ger is the movie's 40 years old or something. It's Voyager. It's the It's the It's the satellite that went out and it just like you find at the end it's like the the letters are missing.

[laughter]

That's right. That's right. So, my point is that's what enlightenment is like. The merging between a supercomputer and a human in a loving embrace and then sort of feeling yourself to be everywhere and in the bliss of everything. But, then that awareness of everything includes being aware that others are not that happy. So then and there's a there seems to be an endless supply of them. And then uncountable. So then the fun is helping them find their release. And so then I finally had the answer to my old friend with his jar of Vaseline

[snorts]

that there's more fun because there are more other people who are miserable and you Buddhas have more fun making them have fun. But you can't make them have fun. That's the problem. You can't make people have fun. Because if you try to make them then they will resist and they'll get more uptight. You can only do whatever it takes, whichever dance, whatever artistic work, whatever anything it takes to get them to feel safe enough to kind of open up their own inner softness, their own inner streaming as their their orgasmic potency as Wilhelm Reich would call it who I also refer to in the book a lot, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And Wilhelm Reich, you know, the he wrote he's the famous writer of the function of the orgasm and what he calls orgasmic potency which is not the same as ordinary genitally organized orgasm. It's something more. It's total whole body, brain and throat and heart and navel as well as the as well as the active parts, you know. And [snorts] and so he without being a yogi and without knowing tantric yoga or anything, Wilhelm Reich somehow sussed that out by some natural ability he had or whatever ability he had. Anyway, point is so that's the more fun, you see. So I finally was ready to answer my friend that more fun is everybody else's fun. You know, which you become the sort of catalyst for. You can't make them have fun. If you try to bliss bomb other beings that would harm them because they would resist the flood of big bliss energy, you know. They they wouldn't see it as bliss. They would see it as invasive, you know.

That was one of uh, Wilhelm Reich's points that like that kind of bliss feels overwhelming to people and they just don't they're almost like overloaded circuits. They don't have the ability to handle it so they'll they'll they'll they'll flinch. You know, so you can't force it on people.

kill the source of it, you know, in that his great emotional plague theory that because they are they have been indoctrinated and and they have been kind of coerced by the culture some militaristic culture or some male chauvinist dominating power oriented culture and they've been to sort of shut down their inner sensitivity that the human being has, you know. Where and so they and he has a brilliant thing like the military posture you jam your chin into your neck, you suck in the diaphragm so so you can't feel anything there and you you rip rip your pelvis back in a in a sort of version of up tight upright posture so that you don't feel point is not to feel fear for the military person but then you can't also feel the streaming of genuine melting and a loving embrace with someone so you can't enjoy it. And then when you meet someone who is radiating that aura of orgasmic potency like a Christ figure or somebody then then that makes you have these inner streamings that make you feel like you maybe you're going to pee in your pants or something you're going to lose control of things and then you freak out and you want to destroy that person, you know.

You know, I have to say

mystic. He that's a brilliant thing of his, you know.

I have to say Dr. Thurman I you're you're reading my notes here cuz I want to talk about the emotional plague but also I have to say that like as an academic person I stick that book Function of the Orgasm in every class I can anytime I can have an excuse to include it I'm sticking it in.

greatest, you know, he really was the greatest and he and and he he ran into this sort of fascism everywhere McCarthyite fascism in America, Hitlerite in Germany and Leninite in in Russia. And he thought at first Russia the But the Russian revolution would lead to like people opening up to yogas and things. And then they they just completely betrayed that fake promise, you know, but they're violent and the violence, you know. The violence is the end of it, you know. Anyway, yeah, that's awesome. You you said it. That's really cool.

So, you know, like

Why why are you wearing that hat, by the way?

Oh, you always ask me this, uh, Professor Thurman.

Well, not always. One one time previously.

Well, the one previous time. So, two [laughter] times always, by my by my count.

Fair enough.

It's just it's just for my it's just for my sloppy COVID hair. It just makes it a little bit more simple.

[laughter]

Cuz, you know, we're going to be on camera, so I thought

It's like a vacation hat. You know, it's like a vacation hat.

Well, talking with you is like a vacation for me, Professor Thurman. This is a vacation.

Eric Eric is having fun.

The Buddha was what they call a shramana. And shramana is like someone who goes to an ashram. That means, you know, like a place of rest. So, it has a shram means to seek something and to to seek rest and peace. So, people translate it as ascetic cuz they think, "Oh gee, he left his palace and his harem and his wife, etc. So, he's really really depriving himself." And of course, he did in his own history. First, he what did spend time as an ascetic. But I translate shramana as vacationer.

[laughter]

That's what it means. Someone who's going on a vacation. And we all need that. And and and we all need to have more fun, have a vacation, and we need to run our societies in such a way that people have more vacation and they don't feel stressed out and they you know, like I have a plan for Joe Manchin's West Virginia.

Oh, okay.

all, I want them all to read Wisdom Is Bliss.

That's a good idea right there.

Starting Starting with Joe himself, I will go down there and I hope he'll invite me on his boat. And he lives on a [laughter] boat there in the Potomac.

Do you have a Do you have a

I'll give him a copy of the book [clears throat] and hopefully he'll read it.

Just tell him that you have some some opportunity for for him to make some kind of weird corporate wheeler-dealing and then just surprise him with the book, Professor Thurman. He'll invite you down if you say that.

No, I have a corporate plan for him.

Uh-huh.

My corporate plan is that he will make West Virginia into the Switzerland of the East Coast and all the hard-driving, stressed-out cities where people can go and they and they and they'll shut down all the coal mines but nobody wants to go digging in the dirt there and get all black-faced and get lung diseases and god knows what. And and you know, and all the coal mining families will be given jobs to plant the most magnificent garden all over where shutting down those mines, cleaning up all the polluted, you know, streams and everything. Few billion, you know, 30, 20, 30 billion for that and then billions more to build the fabulous sanatoria, spas, massage parlors, fabulous, beautiful, you know, athletic training, yoga centers, whatever's needed. And they'll all be it'll be the big mansion mansion will be the patron saint of the happiness industry that will be based in West Virginia. And everyone goes up from DC. They only work four-day weeks, you know, cuz there's not much to do cuz everybody's pretty content in the whole country. Everybody leaves all the workshops and the factories and things and they do it for hour, three hours so they can employ more people. They have three-hour work days, work weeks, three-day work weeks and they go up to West Virginia and they stop money, you know, and and all the West Virginians become massage therapists and healers and psychiatrists and and the yogis and yoginis. And it Oh, it's going to be great.

It's like the mansion

I need access. I need to see him if you know Joe.

Well, as long as there's a a kickback for him and his daughter and you can get the mansion mansion.

is the whole state of West [laughter] Virginia as a paradise. We'll make it into a really happy place, really wealthy, happy, flourishing, and a beacon, like the Tibet of the East Coast, of the Switzerland of the East Coast, you know. It's a mountainous region. They put the tops back on the mountains, you know, the tops shaved off for coal, and make it nice, but have like foot football pitches up there, you know, and play ladies field hockey.

[laughter]

His daughter could be the coach, you know. So, he really had a happy time. What What does he want to be like a Democratic senator a pseudo Democratic senator in name only in a in a Republican crazed state because of the poverty and the fact that that industry is over because of the global overheating and so on. And what's the point? He's 73 years old. He It's time to retire and have a happy time. Meanwhile, be be the be the person who brought the goods back to his people, you know. Very much like Moses. Moses, he's a Mo- He'll be the Moses of West Virginia.

Doubling back, I guess, on the uh happy time, Professor Thurman. So, uh just doubling back on the happy time. The other part that hit me when you were talking about fun,

[laughter]

pulling it all together, was uh sort of this tantra question. What I feel like there might be a resistance in some people, you know, it to fun would be like I think when they think of Buddhism, they they're worried, like almost what your friend was saying with the Vaseline or something, that their life on the path level won't be full. You know, you won't have a full and rich life. And I was just, you know, for me, I I might have wrestled with this question a little bit personally, too. Can you have a a Buddhist life that's full and rich? I don't know what you think about him. I happen to like the Japanese poet Ikkyu.

Oh, I love Ikkyu, yeah.

Yeah. And so, you know, he's really talking about, you know, a spiritual path. They're serious poems, but there's also poems that are about love. There's poems about sex that are pretty saucy. There's poems about drinking, but I had a couple of his verses, uh you know, he's really talking about a full life. So, he says something like, "I was like an old leafless tree until we met." So, he's writing about love. Green buds burst out in blossom. Now that I have you, you I'll never forget what I owe you. That's one of his love poems. So, he's talking about a rich full life. He has another one about his daughter where he says, "Watching my 4-year-old daughter dance, I cannot break free of her." And every parent has had those feelings. So, yeah, I I don't know what you think about that, but I mean, obviously you've lived a full life yourself. I think there's this concern of people that a Buddhist path or a spiritual path will mean that you'll have to be, you know, you won't get a full life. And I I think that's a concern for Americans. Is that something you see, too?

Yeah. That's what I'm saying, super education, mega fun, super fun. And you know, like Zen like you you you said you had fun doing Zen. And you did. And you because you could drop out of all of the different things and you watch the little the the the the ice forming on the little outdoor stream and you could shiver in a cold shower at 4:00 in the morning before you had to meditate and etc. And then if you slumped in when you're meditating there, they would whack you with a stick and then had a sting on the back and you had a sting on the back and it made you zap you right up. And it's it's exciting. Did you ever see the movie Enlightenment Guaranteed?

Oh, no, no, I don't think I've ever seen that.

No, you should see that. It's actually in German with subtitles, Erleuchtung garantiert. And it's about these two brothers who go to try to find a Zen center in Japan. Actually, one of them are trying to do that, the other one is just screws up his marriage and his business and everything and then runs after his brother. So, they both end up there, they lose their passports, they have all these terrible things. And then they finally find the Zen center and then they're then they're doing all the They meant They thought they would just meditate, but they have all these rituals. They have to rush out and then wash themselves in a cold stream outside. And they sweep and they do all this. And they really get into it and it's total fun. It's so fun.

[snorts]

And they end up in a tent. They leave the tent and they end up in a I won't say what happens. But you you might want to You really enjoy it. It's I mean it's such a fun movie. Talk about fun. And it shows how much fun these Zen people have. You know, with all their little bells and ding ding ding. Walking this way and being dialectic or they're eating. It's amazing. It's It's a German one, but oh, it's just You'll love it. You really will. You really will.

How did that work out for you?

So so my point is yes, people The problem is the reason they they may think that Buddhism will make them not have a full life is only that they're not having a full life anyway.

Mhm.

You know, they're they're even the ones who, you know, say they're born actually being born well very wealthy is a real hardship. It You know, I almost know I don't know anyone who was born with a silver spoon who wasn't pretty miserable, actually. Occasionally they would kind of go, "Yeah, well, I'm going to buy this for that." And they you know, go someplace. But basically then they're never satisfied with whatever it is. And they always I knew one person who would get on a plane in the first class but think there was a better seat somewhere else in the first class. And then call the person and say, "Do you know who I am?" And try to rebook the seat and switch with someone else in the first class because the seat they're in was not the what they thought was the best one, etc. Not content in that seat, you know. And the whole life was like that, kind of.

They're almost like

They're better getting better now.

Human beings stuck in that jealous god mode.

the idea A that Buddhism is a religion that you have to convert to if you have to get anything out of it. And B, and and you know, the Dalai Lama is he's the most major figure in world Buddhism, which I thought everyone would sort of say. Not that he's the head of everything cuz they don't have heads like that. And he doesn't want to be, and people don't need him to be. But in one way, he's kind of like the world leader of Buddhism because he's made it known to so many people in a good way. And he doesn't want them to be Buddhist. He wants people to be whatever their his grandmother is. But he wants them to do it in a lighter way. He wants them to be happy and kind and enjoy themselves and make it help others enjoy themselves and and be transformed. You know, he calls he has a center that one of a monk who is devotee of his founded at MIT called the Dalai Lama Center for for Ethics and Transformative Values. And that's what he wants. He doesn't want Buddhist like the center for Buddhists. As he says, you know, like be whatever, but but don't be miserable and don't make others miserable. That's his main thing. And that's what that's what that's what Buddha wanted for people. And he was successful about it actually in his own country. And I think worldwide, he he's still his force is still going. He's still present from a Buddhist point of view. He didn't just disappear. He's not like the Lone Ranger. Who was that masked man? Where did he go? No, he's got one bad guy, but more bad guys will come. No, he's he left that body to give a teaching cuz he didn't want to keep that body after a certain time, but he's present. And many many such beings are present helping. And you know, people Westerners are beginning Protestant Westerners who were deprived of all kind of lushness in life, you know, because that was associated with the papists, you know, like a a bright red robe and a and a and a really and all enveloping ritual.

Thanks for tuning in to today's episode with Professor Robert Thurman titled CTFU. Be sure to be on the lookout for the second half of our conversation coming out very soon. For Eric, this is Daniel. We'll get you in the next one. Peace.

I want you to get together. I want you to get together. Put your hands

[music]

together together one time.

[music]

I want you to get together. I want you to get together.