Apel G& those of us who like our spirituality with a twist. So we're doing a special episode with one of our friends of the show, Rory. Right. Uh, it's the first time actually Rory and I get a chance to talk and we're going to talk all kinds of cool traditional Chinese medicine stuff, especially as Rory's building towards what should be a really awesome book, right, on Dowist ideas and TCM ideas. And we're going to focus in on this particular episode in a really deep Chinese medical idea. I'm laughing because it's so deep. So, this is going to go deep, y'all. Uh, and it's really about this idea of uh, imperial fire and ministerial fire. And we get to learn all about what that is together as Rory's going to share with us. And Daniel and I will be uh, yeah, I don't know what you would even call it, you know,

passengers

chatting. We'll be chatting. We'll be chatting about this as we kind of hear the ideas. I'm hyped to hear it, though. Thanks so much, Rory, for doing it.

Yeah. Yeah, my pleasure. Looking forward to chopping it up. Great to spend some time with you, Eric. We've had some fun, Daniel. Mhm.

So, uh yeah, like you said, I'm I'm uh writing towards this book on on dowist cosmology and numerology and uh the tenative title is the hidden heart of Chinese medicine. And so it's it's almost like the uh fundamental geometric underpinnings that all of not just Chinese medicine but you know the dowist arts, funue, divinations, uh taichi, all of that really emerges from these deeper understandings. Um in the classics it says you know the the ancient sages knew the way of life. they followed the perfect numbers or the perfect numeric which are the great principles of human life. So it's not just about medicine. It's a it's almost like the source code of of reality in a certain sense.

And so what's really so fascinating about it, I have a background in mathematics. I did chaos theory uh research. Yeah. So I was in a fellowship with the NSF back in the day. And so in chaos theory, it's a relatively new branch of mathematics because it it emerged with with the introduction of computational power and graphical representation of of uh iterative functions basically repeating simple functions over and over and then you can get the concept of fractals.

Yeah. And and what a fractal is is uh a repeating pattern at different scales. And so

a mandelola too if you get to that idea. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. And so so the whole reason that they teach in the Dwan clan that we study medicine is because we're studying this small pattern. So we're studying the near so we can know the far, the small so we can know the large. And so by really understanding the small unit, we can know the nature of nature.

It's not that small of a unit though, Rory. It's I would say average.

All right, fair enough. Um but so you know so they talk about these you know perfect numbers perfect numeric and it's really a pretty nebulous idea. So to give a a kind of sense of it they're really these dowist relational geometric laws you could think of them. So if I talk about like pi for instance, you shouldn't think about pi not pie pi. You should think about it not as the sequence of digits like 3.14 but as the relational law between the area and radius of a circle. And so that law holds at all scales and emerges throughout nature. Or you could say the same of uh fi as the uh you know in relation to the golden spiral. So the growth pattern of that or e or you know all of these things. So in this sense we have these perfect numbers and the ones that I'm going to get to are are five and six. and those correspond to heaven and earth. And so in the Dowist classics, this is an idea that's really, you know, you see it put forth by Plato. We have this the Platonic world of ideals versus the tangible reality and that's outlined in the whole uh allegory of the cave in Plato's Republic. A total side note in terms of synchronicity, but my son had to do a thing for the school where he had to like act out some historical personage and I was helping him write a dialogue this week and the person was drum roll.

So we were writing my son like two days ago like a speech on the allegory of the cave so he could tell it to a bunch of fourth graders.

Yeah. Yeah. So you know exactly you're you're well prepped for this. It's

Yeah. Yeah. It's nice synchronicity. I mean that like means that the DA is doing its thing.

Exactly. And so it's the same concept of uh you know maybe you can explain the you know Plato's cave. It's this. this uh basically the world that we perceive is is one dimension and there's higher dimensions beyond it but you have to experience them in order to

um in order to really believe it. You got to see it to believe it.

That's like you have to see three dimensions to realize you can get it out of two or something, right? Because in the play seeing the shadows on the wall so you're living kind of in a two-dimensional world. I didn't put that in the speech for my kid

to explain two dimensional to three dimensional. But the fact is you're lo I mean like from a Dowist point of view or something you're living in something that's kind of illusurary until you're able to break through and see the higher dimensionality. Right.

So you're living in a confined sort of state of consciousness until you can expand it out. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And so in the in the classics it talks about earth is the carrier of physical objects while heaven is displaying the pure energy ofqi. And so it's talking about this this dichotomy of pure energy versus physical form. It's almost like when you look at a wave coming at you on the shoreline the water is not coming to you. The wave is traveling towards you. You can grab, you can scoop up some water and hold it, but you can't hold the wave.

And so it's this tangible reality as opposed to this intangible reality. And so there's a lot of

I think real quick in the metaphor, the wave is more like the heavenly form thing that's coming through and the water is the more earthy substantive thing

that's of the of the heavenly form or is that kind of the way you're thinking of it too?

Yeah. So the wave is the pure energy

and the water is the the physical form.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.

Yeah.

And so uh and then in the classics it also there's I don't think we have the time to really go into the why it's five and six. But um maybe maybe we can a little bit. We'll see. We'll see what you guys can stop me. But um

I mean do it now. This is before you move on. Yeah. Okay. So, heaven is round and earth is square. That appears a lot. You can see the Chinese coins with the square in the center. And so, and if you look at like I forget the name,

Rory, just so so for people who are not familiar, the Chinese coins basically look like a penny, which is round, right? It's a flat disc, but then they have a square hole punched directly through the center. And so this is uh physical representation of heaven as being round and then earth is being square.

And the real famous like yin and yang if you want to use those words too, right? Mhm.

people also back be familiar with there was like kind of a funny thing in culture Kanye's culture because there was a pragmatic element you could like put all those things on a string right and carry them around right but then there's the philosophy buried inside of that right which is traditional cultures right

like culture right there's the meaning behind there too yeah

well because they could have they could have punched a hole within in a circle because they could obviously make a circular press they just chose not to

philosophy right let's Hope

I think that's true. You know that's the philosophical point, right?

So anyways to students too, but yeah. Okay. So yeah, sorry Ry. Yeah, that's interesting.

Uh yeah. Yeah. So it's basically what they're talking about is is basically you have this top-down mechanism of consciousness and and we've talked about you know the way field being like a Taurus being this Taurus topology and the Chongmai being that eye of the storm so to speak

and again just just just for the for people you know who are most people literally 80% of people who watch this have never seen this previous episode So, um, when when Rory's talking about this like way field, he's talking about kind of like the your aura in general, like a like a a spherical energetic presence around you, which, you know, we've talked about before in previous episodes, but if you've never been in a previous episode before, this is the energetic magnetic the electromagnetic field that surrounds you. Okay? So, like an egg we could say, or a sphere around you, like a big ball. And then in the center of your body is like the eye of the storm, like the center of a tornado. There's a tube that runs from the top all the way down. And that that tube gets called different names in different systems, but he's calling it here the Chongmai, which is the centralized vessel in the very center center uh of the body. But you can call it, you know, the condalini vessel or shashamna, however you want to call it. But it it splits this tube right down the center. And that's this kind of access point that uh Rory is talking about right now.

Yeah. And I'll go ahead and unpack that a little bit more if if you know if it really is 80% of the Yes. It is

audience. So

I have all the data.

So um so if you think about like the yin-yang symbol, I think most people are pretty familiar with that. So it's the tai 2 ta diagram

and it's depicting yin and yang. What the Dohan teach is that this yin and yang vortex, the taichi, is a two-dimensional representation that's been handed down on two-dimensional sheets of paper, two-dimensional temple walls, canvases, but it's actually referencing a higher dimensional reality. And so they call it a vortex when they translate it, a vortex which takes the subtler dimensions of consciousness and translates them into form. And that exact topology when you look at it, you know what they teach is that it's not the it's often described as a white fish with a black eye and a black fish with a white eye. But they teach that the two eyes are actually in fact one column, one empty space. And so when you're looking through the white side, you are seeing the black side from through the empty column. And from the black side, you see the white through the empty column. So these aren't two separate dots. They're one central core or central pivot where it spirals around. And Rory, before you move on, just just so just for a little bit of, I guess, frame of reference. Um, because what you said, there's a lot of things that are very profound, right? First one. So you're talking about a three-dimensional object being represented in a two-dimensional plane. So a sphere being represented on a wall would look like a circle, just like a cube represented on a piece of paper would look like a square. So this is why this so this is what you're talking about and the on and the type the yinyang symbol or as many people say it the yin-yang symbol that the kind of black eye white eye it's the same eye it's this it's the hole or it's the central channel through the middle of the sphere being represented on on a piece of paper and so it goes into kind of like this idea of the holographic nature of reality and that you have to see beyond what it is that we're seeing in a two-dimensional repres representation is that they are um an analogy for something that lies beyond the obvious, which is a term that I love to use on a regular basis, but you're so I'm just giving a little bit of context so that you know we keep the keep the attention of the geniuses who are watching. You know what I'm saying? And I don't say that sarcastically. If you're hanging with us and you like this, your your cognition is uh is is is in the top 10% would be my guess. Maybe even the top five or top one, but however you like it, you know. It's good to compliment your audience even if you don't know them.

So the idea of looking through the tube from the white side you see the black and from the black that you see the white, right? Is that being represented like as a tube within the space? Let me get I'm just getting in like the geometry of it. I want to just make sure I'm seeing it correct.

So it would be like a donut or like a bagel.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's that's really what a Taurus is, is that and you can elongate that spherical kind of shape

and then the tube is is really like a hurricane. You could think of that spiral or like a tornado.

Yeah. And really it's the you know like a magnetic field too. So much of our modern physics is I haven't gotten to this point yet, but it's in in mathematics this topology is called a Taurus.

So the role of a Taurus in mathematics is that it acts as a a matrix of transformation. It is literally a bridge from higher dimensions to lower dimensions. So you can use it as a projective map in order to take, you know, higher dimensional matrices information and and project it down, you know, even on like two-dimensional screens like we're talking on now. You could use like a a stereographic projection and you could make rotations on three dimensions simultaneously and and render it in two dimensions. Um, but what's fascinating about that like a magnetic field too is that all of reality manifests in this duality of two poles because of this structure. And so in the case of of Earth, what of our microcosm of the human human and that's what we should always do when we're studying these these Dowist principles is constantly refer back to the microcosm of our own own body. And so when we talk about yin and yang of of this Taurus or this microcosm, we're talking about heaven and earth, which is our pure consciousness into our physical And so uh and we can really we can translate it sounds really esoteric but in in modern physics it's established science that we have this wave particle duality that reality is in this state of waves pure energy until it's observed until a measurement is made and then it becomes particles. So, you know, it was like Neil's Boore who made his his uh family crest the Tai Chichi symbol and wrote on it contraria compliment opposites are complimentary. he said uh everything that we consider to be real is made of things which can't which can't be considered to be real. And so it's uh

earlier, but like for me back in the day, you know, we're meeting each other for the first time.

But back in the day, like I got really interested in a nonlinear dynamics too and chaos theory back when I was and that's like just part of the fascination I also had with like quantum mechanics. So I was like a physics major at UFC like back in the day.

Awesome.

Oh, there's like that's floating around for me here. I'm like yes. Okay. So you're kind of talking about like what they sometimes call like complimentarity, right? This idea that uh

and Neils Boore really wrestled with that, right? You know what to do with that whole thing and this idea that there's like multiple levels of reality that in his way of thinking about this,

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And like there's a part that like like in an uncertainty principle, you can't know something about it, you know, and but like then you see the gross level reality that sort of emerges out of this other thing,

Yeah. Yeah,

he had I'm going to butcher this, but he had some other quote like uh at last we've reached a paradox. Now we have hope of making progress. This is also the really famous thing for people who might love a little the physics of it. This is where he and Einstein were arguing and Einstein said, "God does not play dice with the universe." The really famous Einstein quote,

"Don't tell God."

Yeah. The bore quote. People don't know back. It's like Einstein, stop telling God how to run his universe, which is

the retort, which is really funny, right? Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, when you're talking about consciousness, pure consciousness, would you use the word shen for that

in a Chinese medical context? And would you use a word jing for that too? Are those comfortable words for you with how you're trying to

You could that would actually step down a little bit into So that would zoom into a little bit of uh we'd have to go into it would be zoomed into the the microcosm a little bit more. So we would actually get into when you have so if I talked about pure consciousness and form I would say heaven and earth and then when you have two poles there's a clearly established center. So that would be like our middle dantian. And because of like its geometric structure, the doan teach that the the level of the heart or emotion is like the midway point between form and pure consciousness. And that's why it has such torque and importance over our our human experience. And then between once you have a center then between like this pure consciousness and the middle dantenne their middle meeting point between above and below creates the two other danten. So you have this you know more spiritual but subtly coming down and then emotion and then the lower dantenne is more like physical vitality and jing. And so I would call this more shen and then jing below in the in the lower dantian. So upper and lower danten.

This danten means like elixir field. It's kind of like almost like a chemical imagery from the dowist, right? And you end up with like

kind of framing the body as having these sort of three levels, right?

Yeah. It's like a it's like a chakra if you want to call it that.

Yeah. That's a lot like a chakra theory,

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's total it's a total analog for for for our clan. So when you hear the word shen in that context, are you like putting the shen like into the heart? Is that how you're thinking about that with that word or because you're going up here? Sometimes people will say like you want shen for that the original shen up over here in the brain more. Uh I'm just trying to like Yeah.

Yeah. Shen, you know, obviously that word doesn't work for you. So I was just curious. You're like it's not kind of capturing it. So but that I mean I just I'm all TCM people. So people It's a funny thing. I was thinking about this. you ask a TCM, you ask three TCM people for a perspective, you'll probably get four opinions because they'll be something else, you know? It's always interesting to hear how people are thinking about things.

Well, the honest answer is I'm I'm not thinking about Chen in terms of that that um so but if I have to I would say like closer to that and I'll and I'll move into so you'll see like the way I'm thinking about this is quite different from like

traditional TCM terms. Um, so let's get to the numeric. So this

Yeah, I was just gonna say five and six.

Five and six. So heaven is round and earth is square. Man's head is round and his feet are square. And really what that's talking about is this geometry of this when it talks about these pure conscious dimensions like and there's even this uh lecture that I saw was given at Harvard on the hyperbolic geometry of dimethylryptoamine experiences. And so what it's really referencing is these transcendent states where your consciousness rise rises above your physical form and the geometry of that experience is all it's pure energy but it's also displayed in a non- uklitian space. So like the interior angles of triangles may not add up to 180. parallel lines may in fact converge or diverge and and so on and so forth. And so

it's also like

because we're talking about geometry that's like not on a flat plane if people haven't heard of Ukinian geometry, right?

Ryman thing, right? Where you're going to bend the planes that the things are on, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

I have to talk with students about I got like a globe sitting over here on my son's desk. You can hold it, right? It could be parallel at the equator when you look at those like longitudinal lines, but that's going to meet at the poles. So, it's a different way of even thinking about geometry on cold on on curved space, right?

Normally, if you go to thing like parallel lines never meet. That's what we were taught back in grade school,

But you put it on a curve and then they'll meet someplace else because it's curving.

Exactly.

Okay. Okay. Okay. So, I get I'm following along. Okay.

Eric, that's a good That's a good point.

Yeah. And so this is something that's just like a quick line in the classics. You also see it in like the uh I forget that temple that the emperor used to go to every year. I think it was on the new year, but it has this the it's constructed in the same round above square below. Um and so when we talk about round, it's measured in in six. So we do yin and yang of each. So we have these yin and yang at each level. uh 6 * 2 gives us 12 yin and yang. 5 * 2 gives us 10. And so we talk about in this lineage, this gets into stems and branches and all that, but 12 doal is better fit for time time sequences. So, we're talking about, you know, and time. That's really what that energy is is like it's time. It's talking about rhythms and sequences and events unfold in this chi

like seasons.

Yeah. Yeah. And so the the 10 base 10 decimal is better suited for like uh you know the metric system of of weight and distance and and all that. since we have I'm going to give another this isn't like Dohan I'm trying to make a habit out of making distinctions between uh you know mathematical parallels that are speculative versus Dohan theory for while I'm writing this but so as a curious analogy uh the number of platonic solids. So a platonic solid is uh a regular closed uh polytope. Polytope is is uh you know formalized for any dimension. So it's all the sides are the same. It's it's closed. And if you draw a line from any two points on the surface, the line segment connecting them will be contained within the shape.

So a cube.

Yeah, cube is a platonic solid tetrahedrin. Um,

just a cube's good.

Octagon.

Well, that's fine. We got a cube. All right.

But there's five. So we have five elements

that correspond to the earth carrier of physical objects. And there are guess how many there are in fourdimensional space.

Six.

Exactly. There's six regular polotopes in four-dimensional space. Guess any dimension above that.

Five.

Three. Three.

Oh man.

Isn't that interesting?

Cool. Okay. That what was that thing that you sent me Rory? That video

that was on bot periodicity. So that's a lot that's way beyond the scope of

No, no, I know. But that periodicity eventually comes into play after the first couple layers,

right?

Yeah. So basically what B periodicity is saying is that there's certain symmetries there's rules of symmetries periodicities of symmetries uh that occur every 0 to seven dimensions. And so you know and we have that same we talk about the dantians and then and then we have the middle burner and tion 2 and that gives us seven dimensional levels of consciousness. Each of these are different levels that are kind of communicating with each other and those communications that's why in the Dohan we have six bars for the hexogs. If I had seven islands I would need six bridges. Uh and then we talk about these permutations of those hexoggrams based on the Taurus flow. but bot periodicity is and also in the doan whenever you go to another plane of reality. So if you just rip out of your crown and you meet like multi-dimensional beings, maybe you did some 5me DMT, you will also see that they have seven dimen like seven chakras just like blinding you in that space too as many times as you go up. So it repeats and so it's just that was something I was also that's also speculative but it's very interesting that in mathematics we have this periodicity of of uh seven dimensions. but uh anyway getting back to 10 and 12. So this this is all just laying the groundwork for the imperial and ministerial fires. So let's for instance we have so we have sixq chi in heaven and we and the six atmospheric influences and we have five elements on earth five three-dimensional objects and so in the same way that there's six polytopes there's five three-dimensional analoges below them. So in this way we we consider the sixqi like the the the five elements are a a subspace of the so there it's like three-dimensional space within the 4D space like we can call for the fourth dimension time and so uh in the same way that like the symmetries of the six tree is what creates the five elements like if you look at your wrist you have tayang cold and heat make a pair air on the yin and yang side, dry and damp and wind and fire. These oppositional forces are what you know creates this physical And so you know our our our body is like our subconscious mind you could talk about that kind of accommodates our mental style you could say in a way. And so all right so we have in the same way that we have six polotopes in 4D space we have five analoges so there's one missing and so and this goes through in in the classics it talks about on earth we have earth on earth we have earth in heaven we have damp on earth we have wind in heaven we have but there's two fires so it's really curious that we have two fires fires on earth. And so it's this dimensional gap,

okay,

between heaven and earth that creates these two fires. And that's the imperial and ministerial fires is what we call them. And so the ministerial fire is what we call Shiao Yangi. That's animated by Shiao Yangi. And the imperial fire is what we call sha yeni which starts on the bottom of the foot where we contact the ground with kidney yanguan. And so when we talk about these these dimensionally different fires when we zoom back in again to the to the microcosm there's a huge difference between this yin objective heat versusang subjective heat. Like if you get hot with rage. So like you get really angry, the anger transfers to the gallbladder pair through converts to xiao yang chi. You have this sense of being hot with rage. The sha yeni is like it's basically like chemical kreb style heat which you can measure. So it's this this is what the dohan teach. So caloric energy and neuron energy are two completely different things. So when the Dohan the Dohan teach this is you know a topic of debate but the Dohan have taught that the nervous system is the Sanchch schow and so when they talk about you know the waterways it's talking about conductivity and how fire pairs with with water. Water is a great conductor of both electricity and heat. uh this also, you know, explains a lot of things like Ming men as this nexus between these two-dimensional animating fires. Ming

so this

yeah the gate of life on the lower back L2. And so it's this conversion from Shenshu the kidney shoe to the sanja shu. So at the level of Ming men, we have the Shandu kidney shoe which converts this kidney jing activates this chemical three-dimensional process into psychic fire which you know we can talk about as you know could be an analog of tumo or of shockti

internal internal uh awakened fire internal like an internal process of alchemizing one's heat in order to create change and activation within the body. So like condundalini awakening or something like this.

Really interesting because when you get to this, I wasn't sure what we were going to get with the Shiao Yang and the Shiao Yin. So these are like, you know, part of this whole Chinese medical thing of like dividing the body up into these six level pairs, right? There's a whole big riff around it, right? And

I wasn't when you're talking about ministerial fire. I wasn't sure if we were going to talk about

I'm asking your opinion on this because you're kind of framing it in Shiaoyang. I'm totally comfortable with that but not like even our TCM people. Some people might be like Shiao Yang I don't always think of that as being ministerial fire. We're kind of on the same page with that. But other people might say, again, this is like Chinese medical theory stuff, but Shiaoy would have more to do with like the kidney and the heart, one way of talking about,

And then Shiaoyang would more have to do with, as Rory was explaining, like the gallbladder channel and then sort of this idea of the triple warmer, which are correlating also with the idea of like the nervous system on some level,

So, some people who were Chinese monochisting might go, "Well, wait a minute. I remember them talking about paricardium and jouer being kind of a ministerial fire

too, right? Like in this idea that the ministerial fire of the paricardium protects the heart or something, but you're using a different framework. So,

um can you like maybe talk about like this is going to be for some of our TCM folks, right? This is getting like kind of deep, but would you talk a little bit about how you see the different aspects of ministrial fire and maybe how they compares to what some people might have in their mind, you know?

Sure. So, a lot of this this cosmology is really uh it's not as spelled out, but you can find it in in chapters 66 through 74 of the Suen. And so, they will always call Shiao Yang Chi, the ministerial chi within this section of the the Yuni. You're never going to see due as the ministerial fire in there. It's always Shiaoyang fire as it's paired with the uh stems and branches too. And so from that, you know, it's basically based upon that section, yuni, and that's their foundation. That's the way that they practice within Dohan.

But this particular part of the literature is like especially meaningful for them, right? This is where they feel like this is where the clearest application is.

Yeah. And that's like the core of the cosmological numeric of five and six. That's where stems and branches is outlined. And you know the whole

stems and branches. Rory, you've mentioned it. You mentioned it a few times, but

essentially a divinations uh divinations um methodology and and really like a source code of reality. It's like the dowist framework of of how energy is arrayed in both space and time and how these big gears kind of move together. And so that's another interesting thing is is from this uh tradition they consider fire to be time. And so since we have multiple fires we also have multiple temporal dimensions. And so when we look at the Shia Yin fire, the imperial fire, if we look at their their relevant uh organs, the metabolic activity of when we talk about, you know, kidneys, we also mean adrenals in Chinese medicine. And so when the adrenals dump, it's like you're moving in in fast forward. It's almost like this analog time when we talk about Shaolin, Shiaen,

sorry, not Shaolin. And you know when the heart's super open, we have the expression time flies. And so it's almost like uh rub in in music where you have this uh you know translates from Italian to stolen time where you fluctuate the tempo in order to showcase emotional nuance. And so uh but it's not really like time flies when your heart is super open. It's because within you, time stands still. So outside of your energetic rhythms, time is keeping its normal clip. So it's that relative perception which makes the difference versus when your adrenals are super pumping and like you know you're waiting to hear the news on something, time's just like but everyone else sees you as like moving very fast. But when we talk about Shiaoyang, we're talking about, you know, to simplify it, but it really gets into like more, you know, beyond just room temperature consciousness. But if we fall asleep, we don't know how much time has passed at all. Or if we go into deep meditation, we can have a feeling that time has just jumped to us. So it's almost like a digital and an analog time.

So there's more of like a subjectivity in the Shaolian time that you're referencing back and the Shiaang time has its sort of own more constancy to it. Is that part of the picture of that too? Or the Shiaang time will

it's like its own

it'll jump in its own like its own way.

Yeah. Its own dimension of time really. It's almost like the phenomena of deja vu or some people have the experience on LSD of like time loops where they're stuck in an endless time loop

or uh on DMT the experience of time the cycles of time being very different.

Very different.

Yeah. Yeah. And so what different

I've read a lot on that. I have done I've been in a library quite a bit

and the time is quite different and they're also they so they use this thous clan they have the Dohan they have uh like their meters will have like 11 and 17 in them to use these different sequences of time too. Um but so if you look at if you just if you perceive if you think about a little bit of Xiao Yangqi as being if you entertain this possibility of it being like the electrical activity of your nervous system like how much amperage are you putting out? You can, it explains a lot of things in in modern medicine that they're starting to look at too, like grip strength as a better indicator of heart health than high blood pressure,

which is like one of the number one killers. Or uh like why like you look at in martial arts, it's always like such a mystery of why some people are such harder strikers than others. And because uh you know they call it a gift of God, but it's really it's not the size of the speaker that that determines its its volume. It's the the amperage and the the wattage. And so there's a lot of really interesting stuff. So in the Dohan, what we used to do, we drink a lot of soju and then we'll either arm wrestle and you see a lot of those videos of those arm wrestlers that are much smaller than the bodybuilders and they'll just crank through them. But so we we will arm wrestle and then we'll also do finger wrestling because there's no real musculature on the fingers. So it's all just how much nerve can you fire.

Oh okay.

Into that. And so that's a lot of this concept that we're and you know like electricity the stronger you know current you have the stronger magnetic field you'll have surrounding. And so a lot of like whatever we perceive in our mind has a correspondence in our nervous system and that's a lot of what we do within our needling and and all that

because you're an acupuncturist.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm an acupuncturist. All right. I'm forgetting the whole 80% thing.

No, that's all good. So, okay. I mean, I'm not going to summarize all of that because it took us a long time to to get there, but then I guess some I don't know, some aspects of tangibility for folks who are hearing this for the first time, whether they be Chinese medicine folks or just regular people, you know, who find this because this touches on so many different things, right? Like again, if you're interested in psychedelics, you hear fractals, you're like, "Oh, I I've I've seen those before." If you are interested in like physics, you hear about like the fourth dimension or dilation of time, you're like, whoa. If you're a spiritually minded person, you're like, oh, different levels of consciousness and energy and form. And if you're a conspiracy-minded person, these are our audience demographics, by the way. If you're a if you're a conspiracy-minded person and you hear about like the allegory of the cave and levels of reality and seeing things as they really are versus how they might be projected onto a two-dimensional surface, knowing that there is a third and then combined with another element, a fourth dimension, right, that is existing on top of this. Then if you, you know, maybe have a meditative experience or a psychedelic experience, um, or even just a divine experience, you might, you might pop up and experience another level of awareness where there's other beings or other energies there for you to interact with that are sort of like a repeating kind of cycle of what we're experiencing here. So all of these things are interesting from my kind of notes to different demographics of people. All of which is occurring simultaneously as we are recording this and then as somebody would be listening to this whether they be in their car or uh walking or whatever they're doing. This is all happening simultaneously. So you're explaining um levels of reality that are happening simultaneously. As you're explaining them, they're also occurring right all the time. So now that that information has been absorbed by whoever this is uh listening to this, how is it that like someone would interact with this influence their reality or themselves or what are some kind of like I don't know like takeaways for some people who are intrigued by this? Well, I think I guess if we want to just boil down the the um imperial and ministerial fires, I guess just understanding that nexus between our our dimensional multi-dimensional structure that we're we're in. And so the importance of like if you have an intention, you also need like your your will, your jing, your kidney jing in order to convert that. And there's actually another interesting like sub we talked about this last time. There's a like a almost like a micro system of their they're they have different point locations too. So Sanjou 17 is like on the mandibular nerve here. And so it's uh it's almost like a miniature Ming men there. So, kind of like when we grit our teeth, like you'll see a lot of people with adrenal fatigue, like people someone's on like aderall or any amphetamine, you know, stimulant drugs, they grind their teeth, ecstasy,

and so

all the good stuff.

Yeah. But but uh you need both physical and mental fire

simultaneously. You need to be able to if you have a strong intention, your physical form also needs to be strong. And your emotions are really important. So that imperial fire, you can't just throw your emotions to the side. And it's, you know, I see a lot of people that just are so driven and they stuff their emotions down. But if you really want to optimize your performance and and what you're able to provide people with in this life, you really need to optimize your your emotions. And so

a heartwarming story will increase your Shaolyang fire. So it'll inspire you. It'll give you energy and all that. So making sure that you're you kindle this fire in the heart will benefit you, inspire you, make you more productive. Uh it's not just hippie-dippy um stuff, you know, and it's also for practitioners if there's some, you know, that's the whole reason that the Moxa is so big in the Dwan clan, but their their reasoning behind it is you create this little bit of objective heat with Moxa and that will convert into Shiaoyangqi. So this conversion both the mingman goes both ways like a lot of fire can crystallize into into water and the water can be ignited into xiaoyang. So this conversion between between these different dimensional levels. So I guess like back to heaven and earth mind and body they go they're they go together. They're not two separate things. They're two parts of one thing. water and wave.

To loop it all the way back to the very beginning. That's great. That's great. I I like that a lot. That's uh tangible is good. And and also I think it you know simultaneously, you know, what you've been saying the whole time is that there's there's layers of reality and understanding that are existing simultaneously. And so even with something as simple as saying like body and mind have to work together. Well, you can say, well, what does that mean? Oh, it means you should probably exercise, eat right, take care of yourself. Very basic things, but it's not, you know, we like to say this all the time as a tantric saying, a tantric saying, it's not what you do, but how you do it. So, yes, I can do the right things for the for what I believe to be the right reasons. But as my understanding increases now the the depth to which I can do things also deepens. And so these two things are are happening simultaneously. And so understanding things as they as they are occurring in this in this description uh allows me to be a deeper person with what it is that I'm engaging in. you know, whereas before I was exercising because I like big biceps, you know, but you know, now I'm I do still like big biceps, but um I'm I'm moving my energy around, right? I'm organizing myself to do difficult things on a regular basis to put my mind to something and then follow it through. See myself, you know, on a mundane level going to the gym, execute. If I say I'm going to do 10, I do 10 or 15 or whatever the case is, right? I see that and I follow through with that, you know, all while balancing out with what my body can do, right? So, you kind of have this thing, but you're doing it on a on a on a layered level, which is which is always a good reminder.

Okay. So, I'll go a little bit different,

okay? Because I'm a fly on the wall to this conversation. I'm a late fly on the wall because you all have been talking about this for a while. So just so I could frame it like uh and if this is a shitty question say well that's not the right question but in terms of like an overall kind of cosmology within this thing

you know how is this like we're going to go like paint with the biggest brush right we have this dao and the dao is going to be the source and then how do you how does this sort of like become the mathematics that you know we go yin yang and then we start to differentiate how do you how does that lay out in the sort of the system of thinking about this that you're following, Rory, because that'll help me kind of follow it through. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's maybe that's where we should

should uh start instead of just zooming in to to the five and six. But so, uh, I gave, you know, someone asked me one time a similar question and I was explaining with Tauruses and they were like, "So, what's behind the Tauruses?" And I said, "No, no, no. It's Tauruses all the way down.

That's the classic tortoises all the way down.

Yeah,

that's Bert Russell, I think.

Yep. Yep.

After a cosmology lecture,

someone like a woman came up and like what's the whole backtory? He's giving this lecture and the lady comes up.

Yeah. Yeah. It says, "Well, the lecture of a Taurus tortoise or something."

Yeah. everyone knows, you know, the universe is suspended on like tortoise's back or I forget if it was the Earth or the universe. And he said, "Oh, really? What's the tortoise suspended on?" And she goes, "No, no, no. It's tortoises all the way down."

But they like, "Don't be clever with me. I'll know it's tortoises. Don't go clever."

Yeah. So, I was pleased with myself when I said, "No, no, no. It's Tauruses all the way down." And so, but I mean it. So, it's actually

it's so you start with the Dao.

And so, if you zoom into the you can you can look at just and and I write this in the book. I talk about how it becomes the clan symbol is actually a double dorgy. And so, it's it's really a universal symbol. It doesn't just belong to, you know, dowists or this clan. But uh essentially what you have is you have dao or the central force which you could be like the eye of the hurricane and then da de jeng it talks about how uh the dao is empty is it not like a bellows it's the empty space which gives utility in the cup I mean it goes on and on talking about this emptiness and so that's really what we're talking about when we refer back once again to the microcosm of the human form and so the universe is the same pattern Like we talked about this macrocosm is this Taurus structure is you know and in mathematics too in you know like you probably know so much is built upon fiber bundles and this Taurus topology all over and so the universe is from this Taurus structure and that's what gives us heaven and earth and then you have the middle danten so then you have seven dimensional structures so they create actually dual Tauruses. And so when you look at like a vagra,

it's actually representing this phenomena of like the dual Tauruses that you spin with this central column in the center.

And so that's a big part of our practices as we meditate with these vajras. We spin them and we say our mantras and we're connecting to that Dao to that Chongmai force of our own bodies which penetrates and connects all of these different dimensional levels. So that's our own individual instantiation of Dao. We all have infinity within us. There's different sets of infinity that we could talk about though. So dual tauruses at each of the seven levels and we talked about there's first the middle danten then the upper and lower danten and then two more that gives us seven. So there's seven uh vajras each of those tauruses is a yinyang. It's almost like a conservation of angular momentum. They spin the opposite ways and so they do actually different needling patterns with the the danten. And so we we always do our like in the same right-hand role she you know flowing away from you rotates clockwise towards you counterclockwise. So needling we do

that's like an electromagnetic thing you you

exactly

your thumb in the way and you'll get the other pores. So electricity goes towards you the magnetism is going to go like that away. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. And so, and it's interesting because needles are really like little solenoids if you look at them too, little wrapped around like that. It's kind of interesting how they are like that.

Um, but so if you if you look at just one of these, so each of these is like a Tai ball that's spinning the dual Taurus. And the Tai uh that pure energy, the first instantiation of energy is the sixqi. But there's different dimensions of these. So, we're just talking about like uh you could say like at our heart there's these six pedals that this is more sophisticated getting into it, but this is what it is. There's these six they almost look like the p orbitals of of electrons is how uh they draw them in the dowist clan. So, you have six different loes and these are like

I see what you're They look like little shapes like

Yeah. They make a pair cloud or something hanging around off the

Yeah. pure energy waveforms

and they make these pairs of like tiein and yang ming din and xyang. Taiin and I mean uh Tayang and Xiaoyen and then so within them the physical form the Dohan teach is that it's projecting to a tetrahedrin. So, if you look at my uh I don't have it in here, but if you look at my the symbol for my practice, it's a it's a um stereographic projection of a tetrahedrin, too. And so, it makes these four hills that we call four mountains clinic because it was originally in Seattle, which had mountains in the four cardinal directions. And so um basically you have this energy projecting to tetrahedrrons which are the the um the five elements because once again this when we write like the cosmological five elements it's also a two-dimensional representation of a higher dimensional reality. So you have four vertices and the center. And so the earth is the center the four vertices the other elements. and so that's what's occurring at all these different levels. And if you look at like yogic images of the like the chakras, they'll have triangles inside of these chakras, too. It's like the same thing that's occurring. And so, you know, and in the center in the heart, you have the convergence of the up and down triangles. So, it's the

stellated octahedron. Yeah.

So I mean I'm like later these conversations so this is always really fascinating to me and again if it's not the right question but like how did this play out for you like on a personal level like you had this mathematics background.

Uhhuh. you all of a sudden find this Dowist particular Dowist school that you're following too and go, "Holy [...] look at all of this stuff that's so similar to my previous is that played out mathematical thing where you're like, "Oh my god, is that

how it went?"

Yeah. So I didn't I only you know was in a semester of of uh I I got my undergrad in in mathematical economics and then I started doing physics and I left physics to go study this because at the time I was learning about how all these physicists were so interested you know like we talked about Neil's Boore made his his family crest the after he got that uh order of the elephant award and And um you know Oppenheimer quoted the Vadas Tesla you know was really in I think he studied with Vivikananda

the person. Yeah.

Yeah. There we have to debrand it, but okay. Yeah. And so Tesla is awesome. The dude was awesome. And uh

you know, so I started uh

So you were actually studying physics. We went, you know what, maybe I'm more interested in these more esoteric spiritual philosophies. It started to click in that way for you or or

Yes. I saw this guy do these incredible things, take people's pulses, like unpack their entire lives, and people would ask him, "What is Dowoism?" And he would say, "Dowoism is multi-dimensional math." And I was like, "All right, well, this seems like a much more embodied way of of studying this."

Was this a Dowist doctor from China talking that way, or was that

He was from Korea. So he is that he was the 73rd um head of this Korean lineage. So it survived outside of that communist uh TCM revolution and uh yeah so he was also medically trained in in Korea too. So he it wasn't I don't think if he had if it was just Chinese medicine I don't think I would have gotten into it. it was his ability to talk in both mathematical terms and uh you know he was spo spitting out like Oilers's identity to me talking about like the spin of the of the dantians too and um so it I was like all right yeah

he had some massive sort of like mathematical physics background too floating around for him to see these coralates or how did that do you ever get a feeling for how he developed like uh his whole vision of that

I I think he must have just studied some of this stuff, but he really learned the numeric really well and this guy was I mean just being around him you could feel a real different energy and he always talked to people like I brought my dad to get a treatment from him. My dad was an entertainment critic for many years and so all the analogies and parables that he was using he was like you know when crocodile Dundee goes to the and then like the next patient he would see he always talk to people in their language so he didn't talk to other people in this mathematical way just when I would talk to him he would he would speak my language and I and sometimes he would even like people would come and he would address problems that they were having without them even having to voice them. And so the the he had some really incredible cities really. And uh but I think he must have been just like really interested in math too in his free time.

Also

cuz Yeah.

I mean that must be like, you know, an incredible moment though like in your life to go, okay, man, my worlds are fusing now, right? Like I

Oh my god. thing. Now all of a sudden this well the medical aspect but the psychospiritual aspect or whatever phrasiology you want to use behind that you know the cosmological spiritual aspect whatever is like just was fusing for you in those moments. That's a that's a wild time in someone's life to have those things come together. I have a photo of my first uh time meeting him and um just I'm like that's gonna go in the front of the book and I'm just so beaming in that photograph cuz it was like you know something is like a kid that I just you know d like dreamed could be real and it was just like my perfect thing. So yeah,

it was it was a great um great moment for sure.

And then and then I just totally went that direction. That was it.

That's cool.

Yeah, it's very cool.

Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that.

It's a different kind of vision, right? You don't always hear like things being framed in that like intense geometrical imagery in that way. That's like that is a unique way of talking for sure. Right.

You pick up every doubt. I mean people might be listening and like is that does every dowist talk that way? No, not necessarily. It's very particular vision, right?

Yeah. And so that becomes the symbol too is that everything projects down into the middle danten. So you have the seven like vajras the double dorgi it projects down. So we say like the the middle dantenne is our present moment and then the upper dantens are like our future. The lower dantians is like our physical form represents our you know reflects our past like lightning and and thunder. You know what I mean? And so you're ne you will never it's very difficult to be present without the consent of the heart.

You can't function in the present moment. Right.

So when you think of like imperial fire for RTCM people, you're still putting that in the heart though, right? That's still your imperial fire or are you seeing that differently?

It animates the heart but the whole I mean your whole system requires the heart in order to function. So they're all you know relative of none of them exist in isolation but yes it is the I'm thinking of uh in that instance I'm talking more about the the middle dantian as a dimensional level instead of the because it's really a mixture of both the imperial and ministerial fire because you have both the the uh heat Shiain and the electrical drum. um

the Shiaoyang electrical aspect. Yeah.

Well, it doesn't like this is just like some shop talk about writing books, but it's not like the like that's a complicated book to have to write.

Yeah. Well, it's good. That's it's Yeah, that's shop talk for for books. I think I think we should wrap it for we should wrap it. We got

I'm glad I got your attention on it.

Yeah. Yeah. So, anyways, let me tell you about my process.

No, I'm not even saying that. It's just not an easy thing like Yeah. I'm I'm respecting the challenge of it. We don't have to go through Oh, yeah. No,

no. Let's start like, you know, like I this is how I'm like organizing different chapters or whatever, but it's not it's like, okay, that's a deep thing to try to put into a book, right?

So, that's a project, man.

I've been So, that's why I wanted to talk about it as I'm as I've just been spending a lot of time uh

writing. Well, we're happy we're happy to have uh you know, we're happy to help you be able to work through some of it here live and you know, with uh some very basic brain questions, you know what I'm saying? And uh you know, but it's I think it's it's good to share this kind of thing with people and eventually when the book comes out, you'll you know, we'll have a platform of people to share it with and people who will know you and be interested in it. So that will uh you know, extend

reading it, coming back with lots of questions.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really helpful for me too to talk with people who are, you know, practicing TCM because I'm so steeped in the, you know, it's been like 11 years of just I've been, you know, studying this stuff, so I forget what how I need to be able to speak the other person's language, too.

It's not even like the similar I mean, this is like shoptalkie stuff, but it's not even similar to like the immortals chungl like they're not talking that way either necessarily.

Yeah. And nobody knows what that is either.

Yeah, I know. I know, dude. But like we have talked about this before. These are other Dowist books that talk a different way.

Yes.

You know, it's a very unique Dowist vision that Rory's sharing, you know, for people who would be listening. They don't know who those those immortals are, Daniel. That's true.

But it's there's different visions and this is a very unique vision. So yeah, it's it's

it's true, Eric. That is that's a good point.

It's a good point.

Yeah. Well, that's why Rory has to continue to come on and and uh share his vision so that it could become clearer to people who uh who listen. Uh whether they be the 20% who's here all the time or the 80% who sees us just now. Uh we definitely uh we appreciate people tuning in and and uh because it kind of it fuels us, motivates us to share. And this is, you know, the reason why I met Rory is because we have this, you know, we have this work that we do and that we share and that he gets to share in it with us. And that's that's wonderful actually, you know, for a multitude of reasons. So, um whether this is your first time or your hundth thousandth time listening to us, thank you for tuning in. Uh if you're coming from any one of our particular groups of people, you know, thanks for thanks for returning. If you're a new person, thanks for checking us out. Um you know, like, comment, subscribe, do all the things that you're, you know, should do. If you can subscribe, it's great. It helps us out in the algorithm uh to reach more people. Uh because we do find our own, you know, message valuable. uh it's kind of a wide range of things that we t you know we touch on but you know spirituality uh social psychology Chinese medicine east Asian philosophy all the ways to break all the chains of conditioning via understanding and experience is kind of like the the deep level motivation for you know for us and any way that we can help to spread that message is uh just helps us to keep our fires ministerial and imperial lit you know what I'm saying um so Rory thank you for for joining us As always, Eric, thank you for being here. I'm glad you guys got to meet. Uh, audience, if you have any questions, comments, concerns, complaints. Uh, feel free leave a comment in the YouTube section. I do see things. Hit us up at jyn andtragmail.com or on the gram at the jin and tantra podcast if you want to get a hold of Rory. You know, hit us up and we'll make sure to put you guys in contact with him. So long as uh, you know, you're not sending dickpicks.

Um, keep those to yourself. For Rory and Eric, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Peace.