[Music] thanks for tuning in to Jin and Tantra spirituality with a Twist you have Daniel here with you today Eric is uh well Eric's not here uh but we have Katie with us Katie thanks for joining us yeah thanks for having me uh so we are in I'm not gonna say the middle but we are in this phase of attachments uh working with love and desire and sexuality and bonding relationships in a spiritual fashion using the using the eyes and the Gaze of those who turn their uh everyday experiences into learning opportunities for them so we're kind of in the middle of this so simultaneously we're having conversations with you know our friend fa our friend fedra on you know kind of non- monogamous more kind of Kink based things we're having conversations with Eric on the psychological kind of side of attachment and of course uh all of this is the background for our you know kind of series on Karma mudra Karma K Sutra you know which is taught out of the Buddhist tradition so everything is going towards these ends right the idea of using attachments in a healthy way to improve our lives improve our you know our own sense of happiness and well-being because we're going to be engaged with them right but then how can we do that uh intentionally consciously and you know I guess better right overall and so uh you know with this is the lead in I was talking with Katie earlier about uh you know what we wanted to do tonight and uh she had brought up uh a dating experiences as uh you know as we are in the foray uh of that now and uh you know share some uh some experiences and some things like this because it is a it's a different Beast out there now and and uh as it will probably be in 10 years from now and as it was 10 years ago and you know however long uh this country is around for um so so yeah so I want to give you the floor here and uh and and let you start us off yeah so I mean it just is the experience right now in ways of my framework I've been single for four and a half years and Daniel being newly single it's kind of been at the bridge of our conversation a lot of times yeah but I it's really interesting and I wanted to talk about navigating the dating world as your now being and both of us were in longer relationships so probably weren't really dating in between now and 10 years ago and like you said like there's different roles of digitization and apps and things like that but just our inner journey I think we've been on a spiritual path that whole time and proceeding it but how we've grown and grown forward and how we experien dating now as that spiritually seeking being and wanting to find find partners that resonate with us or are on their own path that probably won't look the same but can find a congruency and it's hard out there so I wanted to talk about that some of the differences we're experiencing similar patterns from the past that we want to shed um and then even just I think about this a lot is are the practices in my life and the way I live my life uh normal so most people know but there are places where I'm shy to share that and so I wanted to kind of open that up and then there was there was one other part oh the aging process if we have time to get to that because I'm experiencing that differently now as a 41y old woman dating and I'm curious a man's perspective in it if it's even part of mind so yeah that's my overview of what I would love to talk about sure sure yeah okay so so let's let's let's start here then U because it kind of comes Forefront to my mind right and so it seems like the the conversation as we're doing this live we we've talked about it before but we're doing this live so it's going to take on a different shape right for those who are who only listen and don't have uh their own podcast experience you have notes and then you you make a left turn or a right turn or you just totally let them go um but we try and weave it together so I think the conversation is probably best said how is it that we weave together our own personal practice and development into a relationship with another person and accepting where they are on their path and they are on our path and how do those two paths um move parallel or or can they be you know congruent if they're not necessarily exactly parallel would you would you say that's a good summary question summary yeah yeah so I think that's definitely a but I think my question bridging off of that to you yeah is what are like the top three or maybe one most important thing not that you're looking for in like how they are but like your experience how you feel like what what you feel from them or you feel exists in them that you want reflected in yourself okay so let me let me I I'll answer that by by finishing what I was saying earlier so that is the that is the framework of the kind of like the conversation is that like I I think at this point for and again I just speak for myself and I'm going to maybe speak for you know people who are listening is that I think and I don't again I can't speak for anybody else but my assumption is that people who are listening are are curious to their own internal workings right as you are as as I am and I find it to be ever more important now that I have been out of the dating scene you know but and now back in it that that um the importance placed upon self-work self development and in particular reflection is one of the most utmost important aspects characteristics traits if you will of a partner so that kind of answers uh one of your questions right and the reason the reason for this is that a I'm engaged in this myself as you are and not as a um not as a hobby but as a passion right it's something that I am curious about for my own s because I find and and I like to hear what you think I find that the deeper layers of myself that I can access and unlock and the things that I can move from unconscious to conscious allow me be allow me to be a more clearer version of myself as opposed to being I don't know I don't want to say at the whims of something I'm not aware of but that's probably the best way I could describe it what do you mean by that or just say more to it so of course we're growing and we're learning right we we spend time in Retreat we Journal you do meditation you know maybe some other activities extracurricular activities you know what I'm saying but whatever it is that whatever we're using to kind of help cultivate ourselves all of which are giving us insights right in addition to our friends and our relationships because our our people around us can give us back you know they can say hey do you know that you do this thing or do you know that you have this Behavior when this comes up or do you know what I'm saying they kind of help us so by myself engaging in this I feel like I get and and the more that I'm aware of those things I get to be myself more easily because I am I'm aware of my own behaviors and specifically the ones that probably are to my own detriment when I am bothered by something or disappointed or angered or whatever if I'm not aware of those things I don't have I hesitate to use the word control but I'm going to say I'll use one of your words congruence I don't have necessarily the congruency that I would like to have with a momentary fleeting emotion versus the actual being that is far more still and accepting underneath and so I find it to be of you know kind of like number one or number two priorities to have that mirrored in a partner in their own way but that it's very difficult to describe number one and even when you can find some language to it you have to work to get to know somebody in order to put that into uh into a conversation that doesn't seem um contrite so it's difficult I think one thing I've noticed and this might be with someone that I don't even end up going on multiple dates or continuing with but that energetic of feeling congruence like I'm really in my own congruence in the reflection of this person and maybe it's because they have something they're really ambitious about or something they're working on so like you say it might not be something I can quite point at or name but when I leave that person I feel more motivated in what my next thing I wanted to do is and that's the type of person I definitely want to be around where it's not like they necessarily need to build me up on the thing I'm going to go do their energy just holds that and then I am in mine and I think that vibration is like so cool and I'm glad you that in a way of like not being able to describe it but it's that because that is really important to me and I wasn't thinking of that as one of my answers like self work yes but that energetic resonance I want to claim that that's what I want to feel with my person I think the other thing that is that is uh been unique about this experience is noticing the way in which I communicate right so what I mean by this is that like people love to text message right I I can tell you that of of all the people that I've met on the phone talk to very few people will even meet in person before they'll talk on the phone what oh yeah I would way rather meet in person before I talk to a stranger on the phone totally right so I know you're different and I'm you're one of these you're one of these weirdos that's fine okay I am I one of those weirdos I'm like coffee date one hour and then we decide if we're going on a real date that's that's myo yeah yeah it's just an interesting thing so as you're and people text message all the time everybody text messages you know but like it's interesting when you write somebody at least for me that's how my mind works and I don't know you know audience please comment because I I do love to see how people think or read how hear how people think I hear my own voice and I hear my own tenor and I hear my own playfulness in in a message with Emojis or without okay but then when I send it it doesn't always land in the way that I had intended it to land you know specifically with humor or with stories and so it's just a very clear um reminder that like even when your intentions are good or whatever the case is things still don't get interpreted in the way that you want them you know and it's just such an interesting um learning opportunity to try and refine the process of expression especially with people who don't know know you and are going to just read what you say verbatim and then play it in their mind with their own voice how they're seeing it and you're playing it in your own voice with how you're seeing it and where does that uh you know like you said that congruency come into play and I I feel like it it it's going to come back to that kind of um ability to be patient and do reflection and say is this thing um fitting in the way that I believe it to be or is there room for other interpretations well and and you're absolutely right like I just to like disclaimer like once I've met someone now like now I can talk to you right but but going backwards I'm wondering if you have the same experience because I I've been doing it a little bit longer so I've met a lot of the people that I've had conversations with whether they're really short whether they're more detailed or you know we set a date and we don't really talk till we go to the date that's kind of how I like to rule yeah my life then we'll me yeah but that said I can tell I can doesn't the tone is the tone or the words or the whatever but like there is a vibration that comes through whatever is being said that I can tell if I'm going to be connected with this person on some level maybe that doesn't mean attracted or that we're going to go somewhere but I can tell we're we're going to have a good time or this is going to be really annoying and I it doesn't even mean we had a weird texting conversation there's an energetic resonance that I'm like I might as well just cancel it now I know it's not what I want but do you feel that or have you experienced where you're like yeah I knew that wasn't gonna go that way or that way you know it's uh it's it's been a different experience I've had I've had a number you know I've not I've not been in it for that long so um you know I've had some I've had some interesting experiences um I I've had so you wanted to hear a couple of these earlier so I'll I'll give you I'll give you one now um so there was somebody who I was uh who I was messaging with for a couple days and um was very eager to meet you know wanted to get together some whatever and so um but they only had one picture and it wasn't very clear that's done intentionally right and so you match and you send messages and then you say you know do you mind showing me uh showing me yourself and uh the response this is you know again I'm a straight male Katie's a you know straight female um so this woman then said well what kind of pictures do you want and I said however you would like for me to see you I'm not going to ask for anything you know whatever you want I mean I've only been messaging you for a few hours now I'm not certainly not gonna you know ask for anything inappropriate right gonna send me yeah exactly well of course what did what did this person send me you know a multitude of pictures more or less clothed you know and I certainly didn't ask for that and then as we're messaging more came later and now is the norm like because I'm I'm I'm on the female side I've never received and that would like kind of be a salt in like a You' have never met a man kind of world but never has it gone to that so so right so I'll finish telling you so um so we're messaging and we're we still have plans to meet for coffee even though she's like why don't you know let's just go back to you know this place or that you know whatever right and I'm like no we're we're still meeting coffee is still happening I've never met you I'm just text messaging with you for a couple days I'm definitely not going to like I still there's still barriers you don't get to me just like this I don't care what I you know man dude whatever like I got to like you I got to know you I got to trust you a little bit you know and so I get I'm getting all but I'm getting all these messages like videos like it's a lot you know and then we're supposed to meet like number at this point number of messages oh number of of of me texting back and forth like hundred for sure ah okay we're got it and number of pictures you know in the D you know probably a dozen or so dozen guys none that I've again I've asked for none of that I've asked for none of this I find that that would be inappropriate when you just met some like that is NE you know not going to send anybody that [...] so like definitely not going to ask anybody to send me that [...] for sure like tell you know when's your birthday not not you know what do you look like in a green thong like you know what I'm saying like right like what are you looking for in a relationship yeah exactly exactly that's usually like a good starter so we um so we have plans to go to co for for coffee and then like in the morning I said how you are you on the way you know you know hope you had a good night I'll see you in a couple hours if anything goes wrong you know please just let me know and she's like no problem see you soon soon and then just as I'm getting ready to leave I can't make it I got to go take care of my grandmother you know this thing like this and then never heard from her again oh okay and so here and so here so I've talked with a couple people about this apparently this is a phenomenon um I don't have the name for it so I apologize for listeners who are wanting a name but you probably could look it up I talked about this with our uh our co-contributor fedra and she said oh I'm sorry that happened to you that's a thing and I'm like what she goes people will send other people messages pictures or videos of them naked in order to get praise and feel good about themselves and and then they ghost you and and then I was talking about this with one of my uh you know somebody else who I know who's not in the dating scene and is you know uh an older person and she said oh I've heard of that before but I thought that was only with gay men and I was like wait a minute it happens with men too she's like oh I've heard about that a number of times with like she's like I have some gay friends and gay male friends and that H they've mentioned that before that like some guy will be into them and send them all these pictures and then when it's time to meet never hear from a member again and so it's just this weird so you know again happened to me I mentioned it to two people and they're both like oh yeah I've heard of that before interesting yeah so yeah I mean I guess I I I just GL down at my notes of like living a lifestyle that you're shy to share but like clearly not shy to share that yeah yeah I mean I guess bridging off of what the weird experiences are like what differences have you noticed in how you're approaching dating or how you meet somebody and what your mindset of how you're building that out would be versus how it might have been 10 years ago or 15 years ago yeah so I mean it's a little bit it well it's very different so you mentioned the Age part right and so I think every every time every 10 years is going to represent something slightly different right so when you're the way that you date when you're 20 is different than how you date when you're 30 is different than how you date when you're 40 which is right you know because your responsibilities change and you have different priorities and and also you're older so even though you I feel like you feel like you people who are listening feel like themselves but we see ourselves as you know hopefully at least how I see myself is a you know playful 20-some year old and when my body doesn't do what I what I want it to do I'm like hey how come you didn't do that you know you you used to do that what's going on so I'm kind of surprised and then you know you look and you see yourself older and then you write down your and the weird part is that like you write down your age on the the prompts for the dating site and you're like o that's older than I was you know what I'm saying and then now people who you would you know I say for me for myself like the age range of people who I might be interested in there I'm going to be judged based on my height my age where I live what I put down as my profession what I you know my interest I'm like do I have children not children what's my religion what are my political views do I drink do I smoke do I take you know pills or do I do you whatever and those things are are all made filters and then people filter about what they want and don't want I kind of love that though I don't think of it as being judged I think of it as like those are kind of initial conversation if you were to meet someone at a bar you get some of that out pretty much right away and you decide or not and so I think I kind of like the like their Bare Bones enough that it feels like well I don't I don't need to waste time around someone already is not resonating with me they've already chosen that that's great yeah yeah and I think for me I'm I'm a little bit more even though I I know you know what it is that I am you know the I'm searching for in terms of a dynamic um I'm also very P I'm also far more patient than I ever have been really when it comes yeah when it comes to meeting people and hearing them because some people are at different points in their process and so you know I don't know what they're working on or what the case is so I feel like I might be missing missing out on some things based on some of these preliminaries and simultaneously like I don't consider myself a St a standard uh 79y old you know what I'm saying even though I appear like I'm 150 uh I have the soul of a 20 wait how many ages are we no no I mean I'm 43 so but you know I I am of as you are we're active people I don't feel that way I'm an active individual so but then you know but to see it and be judged and you are being judged for sure as we are doing too um it's I think that's a little bit of the hard part that I've been like kind of coming up against not so much on the dating amps but like in the wild like I am maybe about five years older than like a lot of the guys I'm around and there there's definitely interest in ways I didn't realize that has kind of been spoken around of like you had no idea those guys were all trying to hit on you and we were you know whatever but I like I have this thing in my mind that I'm like old they look at me as old and I said something to a friend who's I think 35 this week where I was just talking about dating and he's like well it's a different world now I'm like it is a different world but tell me what you mean by that and when he came back around to have the conversation I was like did you mean I was old and I like made that what his narrative was him telling me it was a different world than you know last time I was dating it had a lot more to do with like I guess like the me too movement and guys being to approach wom and that's what his frame of mind was but I just made it that his story about me was that I was old and so I'm like oh I am brushing up against this hard and I didn't realize it noticing wrinkles and not feeling as good and and and thinking that other people are looking at me forget about the stats on a hinge page that people that are even like flirting with me that deep down they're like yeah but she's old this is just like for fun that's harsh that's harsh man gotta step outside of that yeah yeah so I have and and so as I'm going through this process I am also going to be exactly who the [...] I am for sure yeah you know what I'm saying like that is a non that is a non-c compromise I I I I like to communicate I like to be open you know we we we doing we're doing far more of these podcasts now we content comes out every day like comment subscribe share our work please you know we're definitely trying to get the the ball rolling here uh so we appreciate all the the feedback and input and love that everybody gives us uh please feel free to hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com uh you know the the Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast uh leave a comment up in here you know do your thing we we appreciate uh everybody participating in whatever way you feel comfortable you know can I angle that to you about the agism because obviously you're thinking about like I older than I want to be but like how does that affect you in like a do you look at your appearance in different ways are you just like kind of like the age is going to be filtered in and out or are you looking at yourself in ways of well like every like like everything um as as we grow you know and this time we're speaking about age there is an and you know and we talked earlier about as you grow as you age there's different responsibilities and so I don't have the time that I had when I was in my 20s or early 30s to spend two hours at the gym Tak you know working out taking my time chilling what I don't have that kind of time so my you know physical you know physique while you know not to compliment myself is better than most people but it is not up to what I am used to so therefore I see myself slightly different however that as the external manifestation of this physical Incarnation current is less than the being that has that I believe that I am proud to have been cultivating over the last s uh 18 years right consciously consciously cultivating over the last 18 years so the the part of me that is the shiniest is the internal part and it doesn't mean that I'm not without faults or flaws for sure not right I definitely have all kinds of bumps and bruises right however you know you can't present your person through an avatar or just a singular picture or a description or a paragraph you have to be it has to be shared and that light that we admit can only really be shared in some kind of certain settings when you feel comfortable to be around somebody and they feel comfortable enough to take in what you have to share and so in order to get to those kind of more vulnerable moments you have to uh play some kind of game but I I believe personally if we have confidence in you know that what we what we bring to the table is special and unique um and worth sharing then we'll we'll make we'll make the uh appropriate sacrifices in order to build that bridge how what do you think well I think yeah I mean I I'm going back on actually something said couple moments ago but like just the coming in like totally myself a it is the it makes it kind of fun and I go on and off with it but like I this is a big difference for me than when I like dated before I'm going to like sell myself even if I don't like the guy I'm going to sell myself and it definitely shifted uh where I'm like I'm going to play with a friend and like I don't know how much that friend likes me or doesn't like me but like I just come in like I am a talent and a National Treasure and like yeah you love that that's right shiny star in the room and I don't need to dim that and I don't need to judge you and you don't need to judge me we don't need you know we're just gonna have normal conversation it definitely is a different aspect of how I'm coming in that makes it not like an interview because they completely meet me on that and then we're not doing a lot of I don't really know a lot of the initial interview questions when I leave first date because we're kind of just talking you know and it feel very natural and fun but and even if not interested but I'm definitely not finding uh you know that that deeper connection very easily and I've also noticed over the years like I used to say like I could definitely be with someone who wasn't like in a spiritual process themselves and I really could and I was and I and I also now experience that not being the case for myself um it doesn't have to be loud it doesn't have to be know PR their career uh but that there's there's a faith there's a belief in them I definitely in the app if it says atheist I just go out of it and it's an X because I've gone on those dates and I'm like a zoo animal to them if I say anything and so I'm already not feeling right and now I just know not to like push into that because I kind of had gone on those dayses like Oh They'll change right but I do believe atheists are some of the strongest Believers in the world so I also met someone that was a former atheist that's like agreed with that now he's very spiritually connected through a lot of loss and you know that said it's it can happen but I don't have to be the person standing in the room to see if it does yeah but those are things that kind of became non-negotiables that I didn't realize but I don't filter out for it in the world it's just what's around me in the world yeah it's um it's a pro when you're in when you're mingling with somebody who you don't know there's so much more that is unspoken than is spoken right I think as you get to know people further you know that you know you begin to know that and so you can have a deeper query and say what what else do you mean by that and they will feel probably comfortable to express more deeply and so then you could be like oh that's why I feel the third way cuz you haven't really gotten to the place where you're speaking without filter right um and so it does it is a little bit of an interview but it's also I feel like a really nice practice in in OB observation of oneself so when someone says something to you that maybe you don't agree with or maybe doesn't fit in your worldview you take it at least I take it upon myself not necessarily to castigate that person person as other or as a non-believer or as a you know a different being but I try to weave it into like an overall um view of somebody like that's just part of their perspective it's not all of their perspective and so I I like to take a stance of like an open focused meditation when I'm sitting with somebody and not to get too drawn in not to get too drawn in too excited by anything right just like when we're sitting in a meditation not to allow yourself to get too drawn away on some thoughts you know but to keep it open and allow things to kind of come and go and allow that person to uh Express themselves and be curious as to more right to follow along and follow through without getting getting drawn in one way or another frame something you said because it was really good it's not it's part of their perspective not their whole perspective yes that's a really good frame in the sense that when we're just meeting somebody we can you know be in the judge seat on accident because you're trying to kind of decide how to spend your time and how to not spend energy in places that you could reserve it for other places but that idea of they're not even sharing you know they're trying to share a layer and us getting caught on a tendril of it could build out a story that's not really true because there are deeper layers more so I I just like that as a quotation to frame yeah well and and same for and the same yeah right and the and and I'm hoping I'm hopeful that people will do the same for me but I I don't know and I I can't make assumptions but I feel like if I I don't need to you know that's not who's GNA grow together I think there's so much to like feeling old patterns of rejection that are really workable though like because it's kind of like if this isn't what this person is into I don't want it anyway because I'm so sure of what I yeah yeah no and that's that feeling goes away ever it's good to it's good to be you know there was something that I had written down um not that long ago that I wanted that I will share now and it's um and I think I might have talked about this before I think with fedra but I'm G to mention it again because you know it just seems to fit right here um and it says uh this is by uh Franchesco Boni uh it says falling in love rearranges all of our priorities throws the superus overboard projects a glaring light onto what is superficial and instantly discards it so I like this and I think that love in all of its forms is transformative in whatever way and if you are aware of your own process in it that it it can be transformative for you and the person that you know you're engaging with it or the people that you're engaging with it and so I I like to leave open the possibility that I am not the sole author of my particular story that there is another hand that is writing this as well and if I am aware of myself that last part again it glitched on my end so I just want to be sure it didn't glitch on the recording oh sure yeah I I like to take the approach that I am not the sole author of my story that there is another hand that is coite that is co-authoring it simultaneous as I am you know um and I like to leave open the possibility that like there is probably going to be people who influence me differently just like when you put different flavors together when you're cooking a soup or a stew or a pie or whatever you know things work differently when they're with something else and every time that we encounter somebody like you said earlier sometimes you meet somebody and the Resonance of their time with you stays longer than just for the meeting and hopefully in a good way right not not like you want to shower and get bad taste out of your mouth but like in a good way happen too though well also you know the like I just gota like yeah tumri on pancakes probably not a great mix you know that actually sounds kind of good I don't know you're making but that sounds delicious okay well I'm just saying so what I'm saying is that you know different people bring out different aspects of us and I don't work okay I got the analogy yeah yeah yeah yeah and that just like depending on who you know who and how you're interacting that there might be other facets of ourselves that have you know yet to be unlocked or highlighted or maybe even could grow with the presence of another so I try and be patient with that and open to the possibility that I definitely don't have it all figured out because I do know for sure I do not have it all figured out that an ending I think so yeah yeah like I like I have a whole other concept that just came to mind but that was a good ending so I gave a long pause we we'll talk this this could be kind of like a ongoing thing dating oh yeah we could just month you can you can cut so yes this is a good place to stop and we will do so Katie thank you so much for uh for joining today and uh being on the rocket ship Jin and Tantra you know slowly but surely we are we are morphing ourselves into like a uh relationships and spirituality podcast which I'm all about here you know things have taken their their way of growing or their their growth pattern and and I'm good with the way that they uh with the way that they're uh projecting out to be so thanks for thanks for coming on and audience again thanks for listening you guys know what to do like subscribe all that other good stuff feel free to hit us up Jin and Tantra at gmail.com Jin and Tantra podcast on Instagram uh or you know find one of us on Facebook send send us a message and tell us how much uh you know you like cookies how sexy our naked pictures are also yes how sexy our naked pictures are that's right that's right so for uh Katie this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]