[Music] Hey fellow GTers, those of us like our spirituality with a twist. So we are doing our series on cults and cult psychology and we're due to talk about this thing called the Zimardo experiment. But Daniel was being nice because I said, "Hey, let's hold that off for a second and do something a little bit different." This will be a bit of a surprise episode for Daniel because it's just some ideas I had that I wanted to throw and get his opinion about them. Uh, in the theme of talking about cults and cult psychology, social psychology, you know, social psychology or social psychology, I guess that's pertinent to like cult thinking. Yeah. Yeah. And um, so I know Zimardo experiment, the ever popular Zimardo experiment. Who doesn't want to talk about a bunch of dudes in a fake prison experiment torturing each other? We just have to weigh wake a week. Wait a week, y'all. Yeah. I wanted to do something a little bit more for context because as we've talked about, this is sort of our response to what's happening now in the US, recording this in April of 2025 and since we're an educationally kind of like oriented podcast, uh we had conversations about like what's the right way for us to talk about things. Yeah. And uh this seemed to be a part that was the right way to do it because we like to educate. And I was I was thinking about Daniel, you know, especially if we get people who maybe only know us through like these kinds of episodes now about the subject matter. Like you say, 85% of the audience is always new. Yeah. You were just telling me that. But we're kind of like a general spirituality podcast. So we're kind of there's a a PBS show that's kind of like all things considered and we're like all things spiritually considered. Yes. Right. The idea like we do everything that seems to have a spiritual bent to it. Anything that like that seems to be important important for like psychosspiritual development we do and we're going to talk about which means we ramble a lot to all these different subject matters which might be different from other podcasts. Right Daniel? A lot of them are like super focused a lot of Yeah. A lot of lot of you know so if you're tuning in for the first time or you've been with us for a while we do we we get in sometimes to some rabbit holes that it it's related. We you know we try we're on topic. It's just everything is intertwined. It's interrelated. So if we if you if we find ourselves, you know, in a in a field that is adjacent, then we're going to explore the the connection to that because it's relevant to what we're doing most of the time. We're also totally dudes and we do sometimes talk [...] So, you know, there's also that. Um, but I feel like everything we do has like a psychospiritual kind of like twist to it or a psychosspiritual connection to it, right? Yeah. Yeah. And even even in that even in that term psychospiritual, it's psychological and spiritual. And it's the the meeting of the two, which is essentially what our podcast is. You know, you have a deep uh background in psychology. And we bring, you know, from our own backgrounds in Daoism, Buddhism, Chinese medicine, shamanism, you know, all the other cobbellism. You know, we used to have a long introduction done by this really wonderful um African-American woman with a fantastic speaking voice. Uh but given that we moved to video, we don't have like a minute long intro like we used to have. But she did all of the isms that we blend them together and that's and that's how we get to where we are. And you know looking at the the state of affairs as it is uh from you know kind of an anthropological point of view or a social psychological point of view. We're looking as to like okay there's a phenomenon that is occurring right and much of which is influenced by the podcast space for sure which is you know touching a large audience really because people have you know modern media or main main media you know media that is on legacy media cable news and whatever news that has it still has a large audience but younger generation and people who are looking for I'm not going to call it alternative sources but different sources outside of the standard narrative are finding their way to podcasters and pi finding their way to people who they trust who they believe to be authentic even if those people are wrong. So just but pros and cons and you know we you know I've been aware of this for a number of years. We haven't really talked about it up until kind of now the last month or so and um this so this is kind of like our expose into something that we've been sort of in in in because we're human beings in this western culture but then also out of because we also work for ourselves and are not really stuck in kind of like a corporate structure. So, we're a little bit more a lot of bit more free to sort of see society uh from the outside a little bit. You know, we're in it, but we're also not completely wtoed completely, if that makes sense. Well, you know, there's like you could do a whole podcast that could just be about like season 3 of Daredevil on Netflix and every episode of the podcast could just be about that, which Daniel and I, that's an inside side thing between us a little bit because I just watched season three of Daredevil again. Okay. It's [...] awesome. You're correct. It's the best season. Like, no doubt. So, if you haven't checked out season three of Daredevil, given like Disney a little bit of money just for that month just to check out season 3 because it's wicked, actually. I forgot how good it was. And Daredevil Born again. I don't know, man. Have you seen it yet? Not yet. This is the random talk part of the podcast, but yeah, you know, something weird happened. And if you if you do see it, I'm not going to give anything away in it. But apparently what happened was like they were making episodes where they weren't going to include the connection to the old episodes, the old seasons. They were just going to completely deny that those seasons even happened to just reboot the whole thing. In the middle they said, "Well, this doesn't work." Yeah. And all of a sudden, they had to like bring in another writing team to fix it. And I was like, "No wonder this [...] over the place." I didn't know that story. Anyways, but season three, that's our next podcast project. We'll just talk about season 3. It's not for 12 years. But people do that kind of [...] is my point. Yes, they do. Yes, they do. If you're really into it, but anyways, so you know, we're trying to do things like again the thing that connects at least for me would be like I think all of these things have spiritual import. Yeah. Right. And uh especially because we might try to make it personal. So sometimes I think about in my mind is like there's a p there's a PBS thing also called this American life and I think well this is this spiritual American life and that's what we're trying to do. And so the cult thing is hanging around now. It's so important just because of like what's going on in the world which ain't that great y'all. So it's our way of trying to like do something that will help talk about the things that are happening but we're not doing like the political news of the week or something like that. That's not our deal but you know to comment in some ways. And so there's been a number of ideas I think are really important about this. You know, on the one hand, you know, part of our thesis, if we just are blunt about it, would be like the US, no matter how you think about it, where we happen to live is being dominated now by a lot of like sort of cult psychology. It just is a thing that's happening. And at a certain point, it's like, well, you better say something about that because it's a dominant factor that's going to be affecting all of our lives, spiritual or otherwise, right? See any way around that? And then we're also trying to talk about that there's maybe like a human frailty around cult psychology overall, right? Where um there's some vulnerability just in the human spirit in the human mind. Yeah. Vulnerability or tendency maybe. Yeah. I guess it's you know does those words make a difference for how you think about it? Yeah. Tend a different vulnerability is something that there that you can penetrate. there's a there's a soft spot, there's a weak spot, there's a a place that that you can yield, right, or has been yielded. Uh, a tendency is something that you can see frequently over and over again in a multitude of people that doesn't necessarily require vulnerability. It doesn't necessarily require a soft spot. We're hardwire. I believe that we're hardwired in a in a way to be manipulated actually, you know, and and not it's not a it's not a good thing, you know. Now, we can look back at at societies and say, "Oh, well, maybe religion is is the kind of like the first cult, right? Moving back forward." Yeah. This be kind of like a theme that would probably hit this episode and it's been kind of an ongoing thing, too. Yeah. And so you're so the but then the way in which we see religion now is a hierarchical dogmatic corporate structure. And shout out to our episode that we did a long time ago. Uh religion is the first corporation. You know that that's how people view it, right? It's a top-down maledominated person. person one generally sometimes a couple but usually single person in a position of authority delegating and then other people execute and then those people delegate so it's very much in this kind of hierarchical thing that's the best way I keep saying that word but that's exactly what it is and so I believe that people just whether or not this is innate to us or not the tendency is that it's there and it's been there for multiple religions throughout this the the recent history of of our species, you know, and when that is not as prevalent, the mental psychological tendency to see things in that way and to be okay in that structure and not want to blow it up constantly, you know, on the on the mass, right? Even if it's twothirds that accept it, that's enough to keep things stable. um is yielding us. I think some of the issues that we're experiencing today is because people have just accepted that this is the way that things are and they haven't really questioned. Is this the way that things are supposed to be or is that the way that they are and I'm just not I'm just going to go okay, what am I supposed to do? You know, and that's I think some of the questions we're asking. Yeah. Well, I mean I guess I was using like I don't have an argument with what you're saying. I get what you're saying. Yeah. To me, I suppose I was thinking in terms of the overall mission statement of what we're trying to do that this frailty, vulnerability or tendency, you know, is a is a psychosspiritual obstacle, right? That we all have to look at, right? Because it's going to undermine the abilities to be for psychosspiritual freedom. Yeah. Or transformation or development. It's like a stumbling block. It's a problem, right? On a social level, right? But also when you get to the individual psychological level or psychosspiritual level, you know, that's a thing, right? And like on the farther reaches, I was just going through these things in my mind, but on the farther reaches, maybe not the main theme of the episode even, but we're it's underlying all the time might be the deeper implication of what you're saying too might be that like any given cultural social system is itself kind of potentially just like its own cult. Yes, for sure. Right. Yeah. which is kind of something that's come up in these episodes too, which is an ongoing theme. But, you know, and there's a Buddhist context for that or a tantra context for that. Sometimes they call these things conventional truths or concealer truths, which is an interesting phrase. You know, they're things that are true for a group of people, but they kind of conceal the fact that they're false. With students, I do it with like the cast system in India that the Buddha might have been up against. Like, you know, it's [...] Any objective observation would say there's no casts. There's no people in these casts, right? But that's so true within those that group of people. Now, what do you call that? That's a cult, too. Even though it's like a whole society that's doctrinated into that cult. So, that's kind of like I wanted to like give a context for that part just that's just because that's the space we're coming from with all of this, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess even if we're if we're trying to maybe use language intentionally, we could if we want to move change the name from cult, call it a structure, you know, because it is very structured. It's a pyramid, you know, realistically. At least the way that's I vis the way I visualize it. I have this thing where I want to call it like cult with like an exclamation point like cult. Yeah. In that like, you know, just to have that moment of recognition. Maybe it's a zen thing in me too. Sure. just to have that moment of going, wait a minute, this whole thing I'm living in is like cult, you know, that's a part of what I would think awakening would be about too, to have that thing. So anyways, this is the context on the big picture, but in like in the immediate, our reaction to like what's going on in the world around us would be that um you know, when you when you look at what's happening and would be a little bit political in this, but not too much, but a little bit like it would be hard like the word is being used a lot now. like it's not just us. This word is like cult is being thrown out a lot, right, for what's happening. And um and I was thinking, you know, you can kind of almost see it as like these kind of interlocking cults that are kind of happening within, right? Yeah. They're like, so if you look at like and again, not a political podcast, but we're just trying to describe the world around us, right? Yeah. So there's sort of like a cult of personality probably around this one person. And you'd be really good at pointing that out, Daniel, that like part of this whole definition of cult that we're using is that you need the charismatic figure. Yes. Right. Who's sort of the leader within the thing, right? And just so we're, you know, just as a reminder again because most of our audience is often new, um, you know, our kind of definition of this what we're considering a cult or a structure, uh, was given by what's her name again? Stain. Dr. Stain. No, it's a doctor. I think her name is AJ Marsden. Dr. Stain, too. Anyways, we we went to a couple like psychologists who are offering opinions about this because there's no standard language around this. That's No, there's not. But that the cult requires conformity, social cohesion, and charisma. And just just a brief word on each of them. Conformity essentially is your yielding the requirement of you yielding critical thinking. That's kind of like the the key element in this because in order to, you know, essentially be uniformed in someone else's thinking and and in order to be uniformed in the way that you think in comparison to those around you, you really can't question too much or else you're going to be a you're going to be an outsider. You're going to become a problem because it is the ways of thought to pass from one to another. good or bad, they they do ignite other people. So you can there's like a a kind of a deep social psychology hidden within this too. So we went back to the social psychology literature that was the way we were trying to make this educational, right? You know, so we were going on like psychology of conformity because people have done studies around that, right? Yes. Yes. Yeah. The only thing I want to add before we're done with all of it, just as a preview, there's like an obedience question. How do you make people obey? Coercion and obeyance. We've done great episodes with people talking about their cult experiences now, which was, you know, uh something that you brought up, Daniel, as being so important. Let's get people who were in cults and like broke themselves out. Yeah. To hear stories. And it's been really fascinating. Right. Yeah. So, we have a couple of those episodes coming up. Somebody who was in the Jehovah's Witness and somebody who was in the Mormon church. Um and so then we have this aspect of social just one thing. The obedience part is part of it. And then the other part that I want to do a little bit on before we're done would be like persuasion. Sure. Psychology around that too. How do you persuade people to follow you? So anyways, that's I wanted to put those as kind of like subheadings on this thing since we're doing it. Yes. Yeah. And though and those will go under the kind of like the larger heading of social cohesion, right? You know, obedience, persuasion, and social cohesion have that certain overlap between them. Yeah. Oh, there's defin Yeah. Yeah. I mean conformity is an is is the individual. Social cohesion is the collective. And social cohesion is more like a sociology term or something. Yeah, for sure. But this is the standards the way that I the way that I have since we've talked about it with again somebody who's Jehovah's Witness Mormon and then I have some friends who are uh very conservative church-minded Christian folk kind of evangelicalesque. Um and it's very much in or out. you will be shunned. You will be ignored. You will be excommunicated if you do not um adhere to the collective to the social cohesive tendencies that have been sort of agreed upon. And so this is required to be binary in their decision-making process. You are either with us or against us. If you're with us, you're one of us. If you are against us, you literally do not exist. And that could be immediate family members, mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, brothers, sisters. It the the relationship does not matter. And then we'll kind of nerd out when we get to it because there's some like Emil Durkheim stuff for people who, you know, want to go to deep cuts. We'll do education. And then the last the the and so obedience and permission or obedience and persuasion fall under that. So he show I see going along with like uh well we can we can we can debate it or whatever. I see that like those are things in the social psych literature that go around conformity too. So it probably fits in. Yeah. But I guess I'm looking at it as like the group will do it on their own without thinking about it, right? And so we had an episode that we that will be coming out in about a week with somebody who left the Jehovah's Witness Church and when she was younger, somebody left the the the Jehovah's Witness organization and she ignored this person when she saw her. Now, she wasn't told to ignore that woman when she saw her in public, but she did it anyways. Well, that's the internalization of the norms we were talking about. Exactly. So deep. And there's a distinction draw in the literature. I mean, we're kind of like going over these ideas and we're kind of talking them out loud while we're doing it because we're both learning or all of us hopefully learning together. Yeah. There's a part where you can go, well, I'm following the [...] that people are saying, but I really don't believe it. Right. Then there's another part where like eventually it internalizes so deeply that that that distance disappears. Correct. And all of a sudden hard to tell and it's almost like it may even like for what you find interesting Daniel too so much with like the default mode network those things we talked about over the years that probably rewire [...] in the brain because you won't even perceive the world the same way. Yeah. And the the the last part of the the kind of like the the one what makes it a cult cult is the is the the charismatic leader, the charismatic individual or the charismatic founder. But it's the it's that energy. It's the you know the charisma of the person who is the kind of figurehead of it that is required for a cult. Now that doesn't mean that a movement isn't cultlike. Just so we're just so we're clear. But in order to you know be used as a you know kind of a social term um you do need those three things conformity social cohesion and the charismatic leader. The other thing I would say that's a little bit funny about that and again we can debate definitions and we're trying to help people think stuff. So even in like Dr. Marsden stuff she says it can be like a car charismatic leader or sometimes this feeling of like divine inspiration or something. Sure. And then sometimes that can go like into a group. So when we were talking with the Jehovah's Witness thing, you know, eventually it was like the charismatic leader may be long gone, but the fact that there's still like a cabal of people at the top or something might kind of function in the role of that. And if we like things you could debate out in these definitions because they're not like again, no one can totally decide this. I like that framing of it. Yeah, I think it's like simple enough that you can go, okay, yeah, those are three points. We can all kind of get what that means, right? Um, but there's wiggle rooms in these things and she does point that out. So, if you look at like Jehovah's Witness, who's the one leader? They may not have one leader anymore. No, it don't. But you there's the elders and then there's the hierarchy that's there and all of a sudden, right, but they they consider them like the, you know, the enlightened ones of the bunch. They function in that role, right? It may not be like one overarching key figure, but yet they take on that space. Yeah. But then, you know, then then if you look at what symbol is on the back of the dollar, and we don't do this too often, but like what's on the back of the dollar bill, right? So, if you're listening to this, I mean, if you don't know, if not off the top of your head, next time you have money in your hand, take out a dollar bill, turn it to the back, and what's on the left hand side? It's a pyramid, right? All right. It's like the pyramid of Giza except the the top is separated from the bottom and it has an eye and the eye is open. Well, this is representing the separate nature of the of the enlightened ones of the awakened ones and the bulk of the rest of the individuals or beings as a collective create the the 90% of the pyramid, maybe more than 90%. except for the ones that are the enlightened ones that were on top and those are the ones that are shining. Those are the ones that are awake. Those are the ones that that are at the peak at that at the very apex of the pyramid. We could say those are the leaders, if you will, you know, and they are the ones that kind of are guiding society. So even symbolized on the very base unit of our currency is this idea of the separate enlightened ones from the bulk of the rest of the individuals that make up the entirety of the pyramid. You know, because if you consider a pyramid, it's, you know, four sides at the bottom, works its way up to an apex, right? But you take one brick off the top and waken that one and the rest of it is just, I don't know, what do you want to call them? Blockheads. You know what I'm saying? Of us who the rest of us are supposed to be. We're supposed to be like the people just hauling along. Yeah. But I know I most people think they're at the top of the pyramid. I'm sorry. Well, I mean, it's interesting when you look at it that way. I love the I love bringing up the imagery because that is interesting, right? Yeah. You allseeing eye on the top of the pyramid like what is that about anyways, right? That weird [...] on the back like and uh when I when I think about that there definitely is that vibe if we look at like what's happening because I try to be objective about it and there's like obviously around like the main leader and we can see this in our situation. So he's supposed to be like the this person with this incredible gifts and insights and talents and there's a lot of like references to like 40 chess even as like you looked like what was happening United States more recently even as things were going you know around economic stuff in the United States based on like bunch of really kind of dumb [...] that was being done. Yeah. You know, it was like you could listen to it and from the people who were more in the ingroup of that, it was like you just have to trust trust your leader. Trust him. He has a plan. He has a vision. He has a this, you know, and they were framing him probably in that way, right? Like he's a sear on top of a pyramid or something, you know, looking out in that way. And for me, like these episodes started and you can make out of it whatever you want, but like I was talking with people who were kind of like in an Elon Musk kind of cult mindset where I was like, "Wow, that's wild, man. and they really have wild thoughts of who this person is. But for them, I think that's right. You know, he is like the pyramid on the dude on the top, right? Shining. And then in that headsp space, there's a lot of that kind of talk, you know, which we'll probably get to a little bit more up the road in episodes where we kind of explore like what's the mindset behind that group, too. Mhm. I want to talk about Curtis Yarvin at some point, but you know, there's uh there's like there is this idea of like there's an elite up at the top of this who should be naturally commanding taking control of the pyramid or something like that, right? So, the image is like very kind of like deadon. But the other one that I thought was worthwhile looking at today, it would be, and this is a hard subject matter, but we'll throw it out a little bit, which is like if you look at like the overall structure of what's happening, there's sort of like the Christian nationalist part of this too. Yeah. Right. Which is in our bi because it is a spiritual question, right? But part of this is like Christian nationalists, right? who've like have this version of like spirituality, Christianity that's like merged with the state somehow in a really weird way. Yeah. And it has a very particular It's not like, you know, it's not like all Christians are like this. No. No. It's a very particular slant, you know. Yeah. And um again we don't do too much of the political stuff but you know there the whole project 2025 thing that came down the pipe is like it's a Christian nationalist document. Yes. Right. It's like based on this. It's from this group called the Heritage Foundation. If you don't familiar with this and this is the part where I think it's a little bit educationally good because a lot of people don't want to pay attention to these things and you can understand why you know totally yeah people just want to pull back a little bit but it's good to know what's happening in your world and I think that's an important spiritual question. Now sidebar to even like this just as like a little tangent but like I do think there's something to that to understand what's happening in the world around you is like a spiritual thing to do. I remember I was doing this Zen retreat with Hosakaro Roshi back in the day and like it was one of the breaks and he was a kind of a great Zen master and that he would sit with us. A lot of Zen masters don't necessarily do that but there's a hard training session. Zen retreats are challenging, right? They're hard and he would actually do the sits and it was amazing because you'd be there at like four o'clock in the morning and there's this great Zen master sitting with you and he was willing to do that. You know, at a certain point you'd be like, "Well, I'm not going to do that anymore." And some of them wouldn't I guess you know uh so was explained to me you know he's only his exam master I study with but that not everyone would do that but I remember I was looking and he was like at times he was like reading the newspaper during the retreat and I was curious and I was like okay he's trying to understand the United States he's trying to understand the world around him and in meeting Grimpe Tibetan teacher that we sometimes talk about on this podcast too you know rest in peace Um, but you know, he cared about these questions and he would ask you like, "What do you think?" One of the first things he ever said to me, we had a controversy with our governor in Illinois who was going to go to prison and he asked me and all the governors of Illinois go to prison. This is an Illinois thing. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see what happens. Doesn't matter which part of the end, they all end up in jail in the We'll see. We'll see what happens with JB. But, you know, he's got the good lawyers though. You know what I mean? Yeah. A lot of money, but like it's a kind of a thing. They all end up in jail. And I remember he asked me what I thought about this and I was like I was meeting him for one of the first times. I didn't know what to say. I just I'm from Illinois and he cared that I what I thought about this. Yeah. And he cared that I know what was going on in the world and he was going to tell me what he thought. So I know what you think about that, Daniel. I've had interesting conversations about this. You know, uh there's a natural instinct to pull away from the world, I think, if you're a spiritual person sometimes. I feel like part of being part of compassion and part of method you might say in like Buddhist framing, right? The ability like to help people is to be aware of what's happening in the world around you. Do you feel like that way too? I kind of do. Yeah. So this Nick, it's not obvious. This is not an obvious question. This is not No, it's not an obvious question. And I think you're right. And I think that is the sort of stereotypical view that somebody who is a spiritually minded person is kind of removed from they they take themselves out of this uh and then do their thing. But that I think is disingenuous in a way because you're you can't disengage completely. And if the goal is to free yourself and then I know they say all beings but let's say as many as you can. Okay? You know what I'm saying? Like that's the that's the goal. So free yourself first and then as many beings as you can along the way and then thereafter or whatever. Well, as you start to transcend time and space, you can do a little bit more. But for now, we'll start locally. Yeah. We'll just start on the block. I'll start in the neighborhood. I'll start in the hood. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And then eventually we'll work our way up. Yeah. Yeah. Um that like you have to be able to speak people's language. You do have to know what it is that people are working with. what what the variables that they have because it makes your teachings, it makes your connection, it makes the ways in which that you can connect to someone's heart and their mind very genuine because you're going through those same questions. Now, your answers are going to are going to be different. That's for sure. But we're regardless of how in quote unquote enlightened somebody is, you're still a [...] human being. You [...] you piss, you sleep, you eat, you have emotions, you have sensations. Sometimes they're sexy, sometimes they're discomfort, you know, all the things. But you are a human being. And you cannot pretend that you're not a human being. You are right now. What's going on inside of you as you are developing, as your life goes on, and if and as some people don't understand what I'm saying, let's just call it maturity. So someone can go through something difficult and they're they mature from that and they may look the same as they did a year ago or two years ago or three, but they're not the same person. They're they've grown, you know, and so as you you know do meditation or whatever, you know, personal develop practice that you you're into it it's working on you. It's changing you. It's updating your software if we want to use that analogy again, you know. Um, but you still you're still connected to the world around you and so you cannot like completely extricate yourself because then you're not in the world and you're you're not doing your mission. So how do we choose to do the mission which and what's the mission again? Free yourselves and as many as you can in the process. So in the pro we're in the process of working on freeing ourselves and and part of that is to have these kinds of discussions and then to also discuss with the people who who find this useful and if you have you know questions comments whatever please feel free leave a comment in the YouTube section I I check it I do respond uh or if you have a longer thing question that you want to ask in particular jyn andtantra@gmail.com or hit us up on the gram uh at the jin and tantra podcast by engaging with other people's minds and questions. It challenges us to look at our views more uh expansively, you know, so we're not removing ourselves from things, but we're in it processing it, doing it at the same time, and still trying to find our own authentic lane as we deal with the the everchanging world around us and the ever more difficult world that we are surrounded in and trying to find, you know, uh meaning and the path through that feels like we are being who we are naturally. if that vibe. Well, I mean, I don't know what it like to think about. There's some deep questions in that like what it means to be a human being and [...] and pissing and deep questions, you know, because the spirit, as long as you're attached to this mortal coil, you're going to be doing those things. Yeah. Um there's a kind of a famous story about the Buddha where famous maybe not that famous but like a story about the Buddha where you know like the backstory is that he could have been king but he chose not to be and I think at some point I remember reading it and it was interesting like there was chaos in his father's kingdom and the risk of it potentially falling and he says something like well it's not like I don't feel that I still feel and care about what's happening with that it's not like I'm totally divorced from that even in him talking about that and I remember thinking that's a kind of a deep thing for the story to communicate that. Who knows if that story is even true but you know as far as it making a point. It wasn't like he didn't, you know, in the story he doesn't not feel anything about that, you know, or at the very least you have to kind of maybe know at least understand what's happening around you, which is why we're trying to do these educational podcasts, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, I thought I felt there was like something that had to be shown here, which is like is it fair to call this like cult stuff? And I think it is fair, right? That's one of the things I think we have to prove. If we're going to talk about cult psychology and make the claim that this is all cult psychology stuff, well, is that what's actually happening? And I think you could look at it and you could say, "Yeah, there's like there's like kind of like one cult and then within that cult there's like subcults that like melded together to become like the Uber cult." And it's different groups of people. They call it a ven diagram. Yeah. Cult ven diagram. But there like there's like the one that's probably just we're devoted to the charismatic leader. That's our that's our devotion, right? And there's another group of people like no we're maybe like the the part that became a little bit more like Elon connected or techbro oriented or something. They're their own little sub thing going on there, right? Yeah. And they have their own ideology which I think I want at some point do episodes just to explain it because if you don't get it it's kind of hard to follow. And then there's the kind of part of it that and I, you know, researching for us to talk about these things, but there's the Christian nationalist part, which is, you know, if you're a Christian, you know, you're not necessarily a Christian nationalist. And even for other Christians, you're like, "Wow, we're not like that. That's a different group of people. They got a different thing going on, right?" And they're their own kind of subcult. There's kind of like, so unless you're a Christian nationalist, you're like, "Whoa, okay. You know, you got your own deal. That's that's not my deal." Mhm. You know, and they're they're kind of like they're a part of this thing too. They're their own subcult. And it, you know, they have this vision. They want to make everyone kind of follow their particular vision of what constitutes a Christian life or how people are supposed to live on some level. And uh they're part of this thing. You know, that project 2025 thing was like basically their document. you know, they're the people behind that and their ideas will make everyone live in our Christian vision. And you know, I was like listening to some commentary on it and it's almost has like an Orwellian feeling. We were talking with our Jehovah Witness guest about you get this you get this weird language within these things. So all of a sudden you're like, you know, like in the Jehovah's Witness, they'll talk about elders and worldly people and it's all jargon. Yeah. terminology around the ideology of that group. And so it was really weird because they talk about like, you know, uh, in this Christian nationalist thing, they say freedom. We're in favor of freedom, but freedom means you're living this life that we want you to live. That's freedom. Yeah. The one that we've chosen for you, the one that chooses you, now you're free. So it's a very kind of particular thing. And so those are the groups, you know, uh, within this, right? And, uh, so I think that was important just to say like there's a reason why we're talking about this, right? Because it's not only that you can kind of develop like a model, let's say, as an educational podcast, right? Like what's happening here? What is this? You know, and you realize no, it's like a kind of a collaboration of like different cults that have like bonded together. That's strange, right? And the one dude I was listening to was saying, you know, basically in a certain sense they're all trying to use one another too, which was interesting because they don't really have the same agendas, you know. No. And so the one guy I was listening to was talking about like around the key charismatic figure. That's a lot of what they were calling patrimonialism or something. You pay you do patreon. You you uh you do offerings to the leader. M so the whole thing is driven by the idea like I'm it's like fits into your allseeing eye thing Daniel. I'm the leader and I'm going to suck up the benefits and people pay tribute to me right. Yeah, I think going back to the Greeks, apparently that was like a known style of government that was just, you know, like we talk about oligarchies and democracies and monarchies and and like that was like a thing, you know, there'd be a leader who was the pat the the the primary person who was collecting the tribute, right? And that's probably what that's a little bit about, right? But these other folks, they don't they're not part of that actually. No, you know, they got their own agendas, you know, and even watching like I don't if you want to call it like what happened to the Elon Musk part of this, you know, not too political, but you know, it's hard for him because he's really not part of those other groups either. No. You know, they're all different. They got different gigs going on. Yeah. You know, and it was weird because like in a strange way, they're all trying in some potential way because they're all their own little ideologies. They're all trying to partially use one another. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it's this very kind of odd conglomeration of people trying to like Yeah. It's parasitic. Yeah. Well, we got an agenda, so we'll use these other two groups of people. And oh, I got an agenda, so I'm going to use them, you know, and then I got a thing I want to do, so I'll try to use these other groups. It's kind of like that. It's strange, but that's I mean often times they talk about the the Democratic party this way that they call it a coalition, you know, and it's people who have uh adjacent ideas that align on a larger scale, you know, they they they align far more than they differ. Therefore, they come together and and try and, you know, have a larger movement. They bring their different uh sections together to form a whole. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's cool that you brought it up because I want to talk about this too because you had mentioned some of the things that came up as comments on some of the episodes we've done around this. Yeah. And we don't want to do like what aboutism, right? I think all this finds that exhausting. But like part of what happened with the people who are criticizing things on the left because I talk with people on the right. So I want to do intellectual honesty a little bit. Yeah. For sure. Right. So the people that I was talking to who are more on the right were like no the people on the left are kind of like a cult. Yeah. Oh yeah. and they have their own ideology and they have their own whatever, you know, and I was like, uh, so for anyone who would be think listening to this episode and thinking that, hey, what about these dudes? Why aren't they going to say something about that? Yeah, I can say a little bit about that kind of on a personal level at risk of pissing everybody off a little bit, but let's see. Welcome. So, like back in the day before there was more of this kind of maybe thinking on the left, I'm always, you know, it's not shocking to people. I'm a little bit more of a left person. I just grew up in a more lefty environment. My family were like steel workers. They were like union workers. You grew up in that environment, right? And so but I remember talking to and the on the personal level as far as this being this spiritual American life um or this American spiritual life. I'm going to like actually meet with this person tomorrow because in some odd ways our friendship and our relationship with one another kind of got we had different reasons why we sort of lost one another but this was a little bit one of the reasons. So I had never heard this kind of thinking before. I'm going back like 20 years. Okay. It was someone I knew from like my psych program when we were in undergrad together. And it got to this point where she was getting like her masters going on. I went into Chinese medicine and we went to different grad school routes, right? But she was pursuing her psych education more like social work. She was getting in, you know, masters in social work and I remember we started having these weird conversations and I just wasn't familiar with this way of thinking. So, as a Bu Bu Buddhist person, I was very thrown by this. And it had a lot to do with maybe what you'd call intersectionality, but I had never heard these words before, right? And she started laying these ideas on me. And I was like, I don't know what even to make out of this. We had this bizarre conversation that hinged around who suffered more, you know? It had a lot to do with like this bizarre thing of like did people who were, you know, uh, black women suffer more historically or did like people who were drafted in the wars and had to run in the mustard gas and land landmines did they suffer more? And I was like, as a Buddhist person, I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. Right. Right. Suffering is is [...] I have no idea. And I remember I was walking with my daughter and her and my daughter was really tiny. So I'm trying to even like place the number of years ago. My daughter's 22 now. Maybe she was like three or four. And I was like, I can't follow you. Like I don't know how to like rank the sufferings of different people as like a Buddhist person. I like I can't like I don't know what you're talking about, you know? And I was trying to figure it out. So, and I was saying, well, you're telling me that a soldier who has to run through a minefield, like was I was thinking of World War I getting mustard gassed in like machine gun fire and stepping on potential landmines and getting caught in barb wire. I'm supposed to compare their suffering to like the suffering of some person who's stuck in some maybe horrible slave relationship and sexual violence and abuse. Like, I don't know how to like That's all horrible. Mhm. all horrible and I don't know how to like rank those and I don't know why I should. Right. Correct. Yeah. I was like I don't even understand. But of course I'm coming from like a Buddhist point of view, you know. I was like deep into my Buddhist practice at the time. I was like no, this is all samsaric suffering. I don't I don't get what you're talking about, you know. And we had a lot of weird arguments that hinged around these things. And it was like, okay, you I don't I don't get your ideology anymore. like you I've lost I've lost what you're saying. I can't follow it, you know. But it was definitely like as far as it goes, intellectual honesty in the G&T world. I I did get the feeling like, okay, so somehow I'm not passing some kind of purity test that you're running at me. Sure. You know, and around this, but you have to like see from my point of view, I can't judge the suffering of a soldier who stepped on a landmine and got his body parts blown off versus some other person who's the victim of some sexual violence. It's all bad and I I don't feel the need to rank that. Right. So anyways, I I mean anyone who would talk about that in response to what we're saying like yeah, I can get that part of things too to be intellectually honest. I mean I've had problems around that. Sure. Right. Talking with people about those things, you know, and we'll we're going to talk tomorrow and hopefully they'll go well and we'll see. Yeah. Like it got to this point and I don't know what you think about Daniel because this is in our wheelhouse. this idea like whether there was like what pe some people will say is like a spiritual vacuum happened in the United States an existential spiritual vacuum happened and then what happened was all of these sub things started to try to fill that vacuum now you know I listened to people talking about well maybe it's because Christianity fell apart in the country on some level and that collapsed and all of a sudden in that meaning gap all these different things kind of erupted and those those became the things that people started replace the religious instinct. I know what you think about that, Daniel. I thought I get your opinion about that, too. Um, there's a there's a YouTube channel called the philosophy of ideas maybe. I I I keep forgetting what's the name of this guy's um YouTube channel. Anyways, it's the philosophy of something. Mhm. Um, but he he's it's a pretty big channel. He has a million couple million subscribers and he had a video and I'll try and find it. If I can link it in here, I will do so. But he had a video that that talked about society's problem of spirituality and that it is this exact thing. And he has a whole video on it. So again, I'll try and link it to this thing to this video in the description here, but that like it is a it's a problem of spiritual. Man's problem now as a society is a problem is a spiritual problem and it is the lack of spirituality, not religion. There's enough structure to go around, but it's specifically the the connection to let's call it nature, right? or you could say spirit if you want to call it that way or God or spirituality however you want to describe that right but something beyond the mundane you know in the Buddhist terms they'll say you know the uh you know you call it conventional truths you know um or we can call it you know something that is just not merely bound to the material world around you something that extends beyond Newtonian physics or just the ideas of the material world. Sure. Sure. And that this is the issue and that in the attempts to find a solution for this issue, we come up with theories and themes and ideologies to try and fill that gap. But that gap that we're trying to fill is only filled by itself. And therefore, everything that we try to fill it with doesn't really quite fit the bill, you know? So, we're not trying to put a a round peg into a square hole. We're trying to put a squareish shape into a square hole. Like, it'll fit and it'll work and it'll do the job, but ultimately, it's not satisfying that urge to feel, I'm going to call it, connected. Do you buy that diagnosis of the situation? Does that make sense to you? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Because what? Because again, I it it's this is all over the place. It's not just this YouTube dude or whatever. This idea Well, this this video is probably five or six years old at least. Maybe. No, this has been rolling on for a while, right? Like it was like it's weird my experience because I have the people who would be more on I guess I should do it on on the right side. The people I knew on the right were like all these people on the left have we'll talk about with social cohesion. They have spiritual enemy, right? Like you know enemy like this fancy sociology term for like there's no direction, there's no meaning. It's just kind of like there's a void. That's what's happening. So they like have taken on these causes or whatever as the way to fill in this spiritual gap and blah blah blah. And then you know you could say maybe people on the left were talking the same thing. But the thing about it is when I was listening to the people I was hearing on the right, I was like, "Well, bro, there's no difference between these two sides." No, they're the same. There's no difference. It's the same underlying psychology. That's psychology underlying sides. It's it's identical. It's like, you know, uh, if you go to the deeper part, the only thing I could say is, you know, why I feel motivated to do more of these episodes right now is we're dealing with a part where this one side is particularly dangerous now, right? Because it's has a lot of power. So, it's dangerous, right? Well, that and that and that is inherently what either side fears about the other side is gaining power and gaining the ability to implement their view, which is inherently looked at as bad by the other side. Now, we're not I'm not doing a both sidesism because I think that's that's generally [...] You know, I I you know, there are policies and hopes and wants and desires that, you know, hopefully don't get implemented, but that are that are harmful, period. That are harmful that don't cost My taxes haven't changed personally and neither have yours really. Neither has anybody. Oh, no. I might I might get I might get financially wiped out by this [...] I mean, it's possible. No, but I'm saying in terms of what you're what you pay your the money that you put into the the the government and what that how that gets doled out, you're not going to magically have to pay more. Of course, we want things to be used properly and everything else, but like is it out of the small percentage of whatever it is that I'm contributing? I like to know that some of that goes to help people who need it. Yeah. Yeah. And I believe deep down that most people feel the same way. I don't think that there are people that sit here and go, you know what would be really great if we just had a really wonderfully balanced budget because that would make things wonderful. H how does that affect your material life? And I know that argument gets used all the time in different ways or whatever, you know, oh, for the future, for my kids or whatever, but like we're also product of the world that the baby boomers are trying to hand to us, which I don't know what's happening with it, you know, basically. I'm not quite sure. But to to move to the the point the spiritual point is that this is this the issue is this and that everybody has their own views on what they think is the problem and what needs to be done but there is never a a conversation around solutions. The conversation always tends to be around what the other side is doing incorrectly. And whenever one side gets in power, the other side gets stoked with fear. And that fear sometimes is is necessary in order to get them motivated to make change. And other times, not only is it necessary, it's based in reality. It is completely based. And so at the moment that we're at now, that fear is based. And the consequences we are not quite sure yet. And so as people who are trying to navigate this with some sense of or some semblance of self, some semblance of like understanding what is important to me, what is important to me and what is important I think you know to for me to pass to those who are listening and consuming this in whatever way that you are YouTube, Spotify, short or whatever. Um there is other ways to do things. It is not binary. It is not simply a side verse that side. It is not. Look at the issue. Take away who is talking and hear what the plan is supposed to be. And does that plan does the solution that is being presented answer the question or solve the problem. And if the answer is no, then that solution is [...] And then you and if you know the solution is [...] then you have to go and you have to look at the person who is presenting that plan and say, why did you present such a shitty plan? Are you an idiot? Are you selfish? Are you going to be gaining from this particular thing? Or do you just not give a [...] you know? Or or pick a different answer. I don't care. We're we promote critical thinking. All my answers could be wrong. There could be another one. You know what I'm saying? So all that I'm saying is that remove the context because the context is keeping people trapped in their little thinking boxes. And that goes back to our thing. Now we're at the social cohesion part or we're at the conformity part. Because if you question the if you question the confines of the thinking box, well, who are you now? Are you one of us? Are you one of those [...] Which one of those [...] I don't know. Depends on what side of the aisle you're on. But if you if you question that, then you're not going to fit in. But this to me is is my hope as the ideal of, you know, post-enlightenment movement is to be able to have these kinds of ideas. [...] having conversations about conversations because a lot of podcasts are just conversations about conversations about conversations. Of like the Joe Rogan world to generate it down to like like that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. I mean, it's all this. I'm saying think differently. Think differently. That's that that is that is it. And we we try and present these things that are occurring in order to let people know that like you are inside of something whether you know it or not. You can only leave voluntarily. You cannot leave involuntarily. It's very rare does that happen. You know what I'm saying? But you have to be made aware. Uh the way out is through the door. How come so few people use that method? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Constantly, you have to consciously decide to go out the door. Otherwise, you're still in the building. You're still in the building. You're still You're still in the building. Yeah. Even if the building's on fire. Mhm. Well, you know, related, I got one more thing that I thought was important about this to wrap up the episode, but like part of the cult thing, too, is is there a divorce from reality? You know, and that I thought was kind of an important point. Now, we could all argue, well, what constitutes reality? Reality, right? Okay. But like on a certain level, I was thinking what's the Asian cultural connection to this of what's been happening. And I was thinking about, you know, one of the really famous Asian books is Sunzu, the art of war. War. Yeah. The art of war, right? And you know, you know, and it's very deep in Asian culture to have that kind of like, you know, this is a major text of like strategic thinking, right, in the world, right? And from a certain point of view, I think I was just like, well, yeah, like in the in the remitt of our podcast to share these Asian ideas, you can just take a step back and say what happened recently in the United States. There was decision made to declare war on every single country in the world simultaneously. We're going to economic war with everyone simultaneously. Even like the island that everyone's joking about with the penguins. So, we're even carrying declaring war on the penguins and other species. So, is that a Sunzu move? No. And while you're doing that, you're also going to uh threaten not only your rivals, but like all of your allies simultaneously. All of them. We're going to threaten every single one. And not only go to war with our rivals, but with every ally that we could possibly have. our neighboring countries, other countries. We're going to threaten to take over parts of them. We're gonna take over parts of Europe. We're going to threaten everyone simultaneously. Yeah. While also declaring war on what could at least be half to the majority of your own population for sure. Why we're declaring war on everyone in the world simultaneously? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. If your son zoo just in terms of being deluded, you are majorly deliluded. You are living in some alternate reality to declare war on everyone simultaneously. That can tell you that you're perhaps in a cult mentality because that is not strategically sound. Does that make sense what I'm saying, Daniel? Yeah. Like you're not in reality anymore if you think you can declare war on everyone simultaneously. That is not how you do [...] in a real world. You build up like alliances that you think are strategic. You do things in intelligent way like Sunzu Fminus. That's not good. And you know, um, and so, you know, maybe that's the point when you look at that and you go, okay, well, there's something delusional in this, right? And that will tell you that there's cult thinking going on. And, you know, maybe it's not the equivalent of like downing some of the purple Kool-Aid, right? It's not that level of cult thinking, but there's something like unreal about that. Like that's not you're not in reality anymore. You're polluted, right? I'm going to declare war on everyone or I'm gonna declare war on my entire like consumer base. I'll just declare war on them and then be shocked when my company fails. It's a delusion. You know, I did a little research on this. Apparently, it wasn't really Purple Kool-Aid down in Jonestown. I just learned this. See, it's an educational podcast. It was actually apparently it was Flavor Aid. So, if you want to go I don't think it's going to change anything. I I I think it I think that's over the heads. Well, there's the tall Jonestown thing where you drink the Kool-Aid, right? I'm drinking the Kool-Aid in the cult and everybody dies, right? So, apparently it was flavor aid. There's a little trivia for you, G&Rs. Kool-Aid is wasn't really Kool-Aid. They were dream drinking. They were drinking back in the back in the good graces of Kool-Aid. Uh, apparently like the icon was like a like a it was almost like a little like candy cane looking straw or something for flavor. So, you know, anyways, I looked it up. But anyways, in the end of this, I was thinking, okay, so you know, there's a certain point where you could say, okay, this is no longer reality based. And I think that's the last point for me that was important to say like, well, how can you call something a cult? How can you do that? Like what's your what's your basis for it? You know, and on some level, you can start to say, well, is this really based in a reality anymore? And we could argue about like what constitutes reality, but like at a certain point, if like your whole idea is I'm going to declare war on everyone simultaneously, there's something off about that. You know, you're just no longer looking in the real world. Left Daniel speechless. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you're a strategic person. Does that make any sense? No. Of course, there has to be something delusional going on. I can't declare war on everybody. Yeah. You know, the the the argument that people who have pro- that will say, uh, you know, you can't judge the book by the first chapter. you know that that that's that's going to be that's going to be the the other argument. And but like somewhere in like the the Confucian heaven, Sunzu would be like spinning around like in his grave up there or something because that's just crazy talk. Yeah. Well, the the the problem the problem is just people don't have on on one hand people don't have patience and on the other hand people don't have strategy. And when you mix those two things together, you get a really shitty combination, you know, you get a really shitty combination. One of the things that like Naomi Klein, who's another kind of journalist, was talking about this is a lot of times in this cult thinking it they're death cults. So there's kind of like a okay, we'll just we'll if we go down destroying everything, well then good. M that's one of her observations about this that in cult thinking at a certain point you get to the point where like it's like okay yeah we'll destroy everything we'll destroy ourselves too eventually it gets to that point of like we're going to destroy everything you know we'll destroy all your [...] we'll destroy our [...] we're going to destroy everything oh wonderful and I don't know if that's like intrinsic to the cult mentality but we were talking with our Jehovah Witness person and there's an Armageddon feature to this yeah for sure for sure and a lot of Christian nationalist stuff is like Armageddon. Rapture. Bring it on. We're looking for rapture. We can't wait. We can't wait. And we're going to like everything is going to burn. Yes. Right. Wonderful. Certain kind of like death cult quality at a certain point. Yeah. And those are and those are infused those are infused in the in the larger movement now, you know? I mean, like it's definitely it's definitely there, you know. Well, I mean, that's a little bit how you know it's cult. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Point, right? when you start getting to the point like well the main goal of this is Armageddon okay you know and then there's a different reason why you say well you know maybe we'll declare war on every other completely [...] Buddhist interconnectivity [...] that [...] there's no we're going to declare war on everything on the whole planet simultaneously there there are some and I've heard this on on both sides of the aisle like a need for a reset you know people like oh we just need to reset the whole thing I'm like it don't work like that There's something called causes and conditions. We are here because of many many other things that have happened to bring us here and you just don't you don't unwind it at the snap of a finger. You know, if you have 20 pounds to lose, you can't just chop it off. Yes, you could take some GLP1s or whatever tepides or whatever it is now that you know you could lose weight in and you know 30 pounds in a month or whatever it is that people is, but generally speaking, you can't just erase things. things don't certainly lose weight by cutting off my own leg. I could lose cutting off a quarter like that percentage of my body. Yeah. Just it's just not that's not how it goes. Um so yeah, anyhoos I know like I think like you know I don't even know if it's like the idea that there should be a reset or something you know. No, I'm just I've heard this. I've heard this. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's more like from again like an Asian philosophy point of view like you have to recognize there's other beings on the planet that think different ways. Yes. Like I can't just like say okay now I'm going to pursue my ideology in complete blindness without any recognition of the fact that I'm like an interconnected being like with all these other beings that do not have the same agenda as me. You're delusional. It is it is you have to say cult. And then the part of the thing is like, well, fine, [...] it. We'll bring everything down to the ground. If everything burns good, then we'll get to Armageddon faster. Okay. All right. Okay. Good luck with that. That's the under I mean, but I mean, like, for what we're trying to say here, is that part of like an underlying cult psychology thing? Yeah. It's so much us versus them. Yes, for sure. I'll declare war on everybody who's not me. Yeah. Simultaneously. Yeah. Yeah, you know that that concentric circle in the cult becomes smaller and smaller until it is just a person, you know, and everybody else becomes collateral damage to their to the uh the grandiose idea of the charismatic leader. Yeah. Or the cabal, right? Or the cabal who's trying to use like whatever it is. But like is that part of the cult psychology potentially too? Well, it's a certain kind of what you were talking before. It's a certain kind of us versus them thing. And we'll just magnify it huge. Mhm. Make it like it's us versus everyone, right? And that'll appeal to a certain kind of psychology, right? The other part would be like, okay, what happens if everything just explodes? Good. Good. Everything burns down on the ground. I wanted them. I wanted Armageddon. Anyways, if you're going to if you're going to choose to sacrifice yourself for a purpose you believe to be larger than than your individual identity, you had better choose that with your whole heart, you know, or that is not a choice you're going to enjoy. But I mean, I think even like from a certain point of view, you could choose it with your whole heart and your heart could be like massively diluted. It can be, but you know that's that's a that's a different conversation for I mean I I don't think No, I think this is the conversation. Like if I'm diluted, you have to say like I'm sure the Jones Down people who were drinking the Kool-Aid were like, you know, I'm into this a lot. This is my whole heart. Sure. You Kool-Aid yourself to death. I mean, that's not tantra. That's something else. I guess the hardest thing to do is to change someone else's mind, which is essentially, you know, part of what we're trying to do. or at least like give it like a conversation about what it means to like be so embedded in a certain Yeah. psychological mindset. Yeah. So, what are what are our are our wrapping up uh ideas taking on Well, I mean like for me I think there was a couple of things that I wanted to like try to do in the episode. So, thanks Danielle for like having the conversation. It was good. I think part of it is the idea of like what are we what's the what's the claim of this? We're doing these things on social psychology related to conformity, obedience, sociology of social what's what's why are we doing this? Well, we're doing it as we've been kind of alluding to because we're diagnosing the world around us as being infused with a toxic kind of cult mentality and it's like dominating everything so much, right? Trying to say, okay, well, these are the these are the features. So, let's look at this maybe as Hosakaro Roshi or Gakiche would try to do. Let's look at this through an objective filter and say, what's happening? Well, we got like cults, right? If you want to like use that language or you know, but we're using it, right? We're saying, yeah, this is dominated by a certain kind of cult mentality. And you can even kind of label the different cults. Yeah. Within the whole sphere. And the next part is like like, okay, so what's how you justify calling some of these things cult? Because they're divorced from reality. Sure. Right. They're not real anymore. Right. And certainly part of spiritual thought would be we could we could challenge ideas of what constitutes reality and debate them, right? Mhm. But maybe one of the features would be to say, okay, well, obviously if I take a step back and really look at this, this is divorce from a kind of a basic reality of how things work. I'm deluded, right? There's delusions that are part of this. We all have delusions, of course, but this is like a certain kind of delusion that may come from a certain kind of cult mentality. Even the things you were talking about, okay, it's us versus them to the point where I'm at war with every other being on the planet. Okay. you know or uh or maybe this other thing this infusion of like destructiveness behind this right but there's a there's a destruction of self and other part that starts to be consuming within this so anyways that's that's it for me I don't know how about for you I mean it's such we such a long conversation about so many different things all related to this I guess you know we always like to do this at the end so if you've made it this far you know, thanks for uh for sticking with us. Your attention is in the top 5% of all human beings across the globe for all time. Um yeah, I'm not quite sure. I mean, I I think I've said all that I've I've wanted to say up until this point, you know, so there's not really much of a capper that I have for people other than if you cannot question the confines of the structure that you find yourself in without being ostracized, shunned, or shamed, then that those confines are probably not healthy. And that can go for religious uh beliefs, political ideology, social conformity in any kind of way, you know, or even like a friend group that you might be growing away from in some way, shape, or form. Um, and the ability to see the the cognitive dissonance between just your ability to choose differently versus someone else's desire to keep you in line has to ring alarms. It has to ring alarms. And if if Eric, like you said, someone is not seeing that and they're deluded in their beliefs and they don't even bother to question that, then those are not people that we can talk to or as an audience. If you care about somebody that is on the other side of the aisle, whatever the aisle is, okay, it's not always political, whatever, then it's difficult, and I'm not going to say impossible. I don't want to say impossible, but it is far more difficult to try and reach somebody who is that far diluted, who is looking forward to drinking the Kool-Aid, who is looking forward to the suffering of others, you know, who is at the at the at the cost of for the benefit of the quote unquote greater good. I mean, the greater good is only based upon individuals who make up the greater in general. So, without leaving them behind, you cannot have good if you've left them. Now it's just, you know, better for some greater if you if you left everybody behind, right? There's nothing good about it anymore. Yeah. So, just the idea to recognize that and really do your due diligence about seeing the the confines of the structure that you're existing in and and being able to question it. And if not, then ringing the alarms and and really wonder where are you? You know, really deeply question where are you? And if and it could be like on an individual level or if you're trying to look out at the world going what is happening and you have like hopefully you know you have we do these episodes like this other people are doing their own things too around these questions but also it's like okay well maybe the right framework is to say there's an explosion of a certain kind of cult psychology that's just permeating everywhere right yeah yeah agreed well Eric as always thank you so much for uh driving the ship audience thank you so much for tuning in again um leave a comment in the se in the, you know, in the YouTube section or on the Spotify if you're listening to that. Uh, leave an email jin and tantragmail.com. Hit us up on the gram. Jin and Tantandra podcast. Yeah, we like to hear from people. So, you know, love, hate, anything in the different, you know, anything in between, it's all good. We're uh we're definitely here to to to engage. So, uh thank you for tuning in for Eric. This is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Peace.