[Music] thanks for tuning in to Jin tantro spirituality with a Twist you have Daniel again with you driving the ship co-piloted by uh Rory I guess I could say that my eyes are closed and he's got the steering wheel and I just gas and break when I feel like it um if you are noticing that we are wearing the same shirts as we were last time that's because we're recording in the same day just multiple sessions we are uh how do you call that hustling that's right and so uh you know last time we we talked Rory we were talking about like um you know what it is to kind of hold space for people uh have space held for us both in our practices and then in uh in a medicine space and we kind of you know teased this part of the episode or this part of our you know conversation as uh giving some of our experiences you know um maybe with you know being on the receiving end of holding space good or bad uh and then you know being in in uh in ceremony or being in uh I guess in relationship to psychedelics so um you know I know we both have you know many things here but I want to let you uh since I led last time I'm going to let you lead here and see what uh see what comes to your mind and uh yeah a little story time so everybody get your popcorn you know and your notepad well I'm just just piggybacking off of that last conversation I think the other part that I we didn't Maybe cover was not just the holding space for the other person but holding space for yourself too how like you can be put into C situations where you know as a practitioner you know sometimes you go into situations where you're like am I above my head here I had a I had a really critical case recently with h a bad cancer case and it was like you know even during the treatment you felt like this person could just you know like walking a a tight rope and it's like if you even you know shout look out you know they could just go yeah and and what comes up for you there that's a very difficult position to be put into and so it's part of that muscle like we were talking about of like can you despite whatever feelings come up can you you know not be an ostrich like we talked about just right can you face it like there's something about like can you stare down whatever life is is bringing to you in the moment and I think there's something about like looking clearly at whatever the situation brings to you mhm and if there's any folding to it then you you suffer and and especially in plant medicine like you got to eyes ahead and just you know stare stare that difficulty down accept it so give me give me an example of when you know when you had to you know when you did that and when it was you know how how was it I mean there's so many I mean DMT experiences I can talk about where sure yeah whatever you're comfortable sharing yeah that or even just with the you know patient that's that's a difficult thing as a practitioner if you feel like oh man is this you know is this am I in over my head you know and everything all the feelings of like insecurity that could come up around that it's really it can be a lot and so that was a really great lesson for me because I'd had a lot of really good patient outcomes like up to that so I think you know you can start to you know feel pretty good and you know have a high opinion about yourself and so those situations of like you know death and birth and you know real life it's good to have like real life happen you know and put things in perspective and yeah my um my yoga teacher will you know talks about like the necessity to bring about deep sensation when you're practicing yoga you know like you really want to find sensation now he's not going to use the word pain but that's exactly what he's referencing it's like you have to constantly touch those states of discomfort because then when your mind is so engaged in that you can have a a kind of a a collection of your awareness and you can once your awareness is kind of more collected you could turn it back you can turn it back inwards onto yourself you know like an aperture on a camera you can focus the light but once the light is focused usually we're thinking about it going outwards but actually we want it to go inwards and he's like the people have fear of discomfort because it's usually a fear of death if you skip fast forward to the end so you have a fear of discomfort you think you're going to break that thing whatever that thing is your hamstring you know mine are generally pretty tight so that's you know something and then you imagine that there's going to be an injury after that and then you won't be able to walk and then you know whatever like your brain is doing that so therefore when you back up your this discomfort is like fear of of dying basically and I think a lot of psychedelic experiences are dealing with this fear yeah you know in in roundabout ways right and so like we you know we talked about on the previous episode about like you know finding somebody or working with somebody that can hold space for you and really part of their duty is that they express to you in some way shape or form explicitly or implicitly that they are going to guide you through the darkened Valley you know if if need be it not always needs be it's not always like Doom and Gloom for sure not but if that comes about are they going to be there when you need them can you trust them you know can you trust the medicine because ultimately anybody's holding space for anybody or babysitting or being there with them when they're going through their experience they can't they can't be there with you in your mind state but they can be there with you in in this place and because your level at least in my experience your level of Consciousness is is uh not going to say fra Ed but I'll say fractal meaning it's distilled amongst numerous layers right you talked last episode about like heaven Earth and the things in between well your mind is totally in all those places all at once equal you know and so you need someone there to kind of like be your anchor a little bit you know we're always not always but we're running from reality except when we get too far away from it then all we want to do is get right back to it you know what I'm saying yeah um but so so it's an important place to you know to trust somebody to be there kind of hearkening back to the previous episode but really you know we're talking about holding space for yourself and what do you do during those difficult times so maybe maybe in lie of giving like particular instances like let's let that be the question let's let let's let that guy the conversation you know when it's easy we know what to do sit back enjoy the ride right that's cool no problem and a little smirk on your face lets me know you know exactly what I'm saying but what about when it's not easy yeah you know what happens for you what happens when it's not easy well that's the thing is I I didn't have an everything's felt pretty easy and so this was like this recently was like you know I feel like you know in psychedelics even too I mean I took a big I took like yeah enough 7 point something grams of mushrooms semi recently too and that was like man I couldn't wait just to like be able to like enjoy like a glass of water you know just like and like take a breath and um but uh how did you navigate some of those some of those moments though you know because well let me get I wanted to go just to that one with patient where it was difficult and I needed I really needed during it it was like hell like the whole environment you could just feel like in holding that space it was a very difficult environment and like even in it it was like man I you know I went there and it was like I I worked my whole life around like making this happen and yeah was like I I don't even know if I want to do this anymore you know what I mean or maybe I'll just do like not difficult cases you know something and and going through that she she she got better she got better which was like I feel like was just Grace and going through that I don't know what the qualities are that that hardship evokes but [Music] you there's a maturity there's a groundedness there's a almost like metal element I want to say there's like a heaviness to it sure that that gives you a kind of more grounded Clarity and and humility and just a appreciation for life but but to get back to where you were going with with what what lessons have I learned I feel like I really leaned on my dowst understandings and and like we had talked about before was the you know dowst numerology was our first conversation and so when I did I don't do uh DMT anymore much I'm not against it but when I was doing it it was to really explore these ideas that I was learning intellectually about these dowst maps of the universe through the numeral ology and so exploring it with that in mind and finding you know really taking the map to the territory and so what I felt like Was Fear as you said is so important in these experiences and you talked about going through the darkness and I feel like that's you know we have so many expressions in life that you when you really unpack them you see their significance and I feel like darkness is the like fear is black in Chinese medicine yes bism and so it's the inward movement of light and there's been some experiences where I felt tremendous fear and I felt that the fear was resisting like an explosion of light in a certain sense and and I felt that the fear energetically it's that inward movement that kind of coagulates you into a certain form or thought structure and when you see it for what it is you can realize that the fear is only holding on to itself as a form and when you really can feel that and release yourself into not fight the fear but just realize it for what it is you can just go into such unbounded light it's like an explosion of light and I had an experience where it was like I realized that uh a black hole was just a bubble of light you know like it's just light inside of it and um yeah tons of experiences like that of just the fear being the you know like a seed almost that will Sprout if you're if you understand its nature and you you stare it down yeah that's that's really well put man that's that's some golden [...] right there for sure yeah so audience I hope you had your pen and paper out you know what I mean um but yeah no that that was a very very good dissertation on that yeah yeah traveling through the darkness is an internal movement of light you know very much so yeah I mean I there was a quote I forgot where I saw it but it was like you know if everything around you is dark that's because you're the light and you know I I I like that and I know for sure when I've been on you know medicine before uh specifically iasa when I look down I just bring my G my internal gaze down it's just light I'm just seeing all it just it's bright inside of my vision I was like oh yeah I'm in it now for sure like that's all that I'm that's kind of what I'm seeing and and it is and it's true because I you know there's like there's different and look people have all kinds of reasons why they're called to to sit with the medicine and or the various medicines we're kind of talking about it from a healing perspective and then I'm glad that you mentioned this other part which is like an exploratory mechanism you know um and so there's there's many many reasons why people would sit right with some some medicines whatever even you know even marijuana for that matter right um and so to make sure that you're using it intentionally and with good Clarity but then understanding that like it is a deep it can be not is it can be a deep dive into the you know known slash unknown areas of yourself and almost inevitably what comes out of those experiences is a hard to describe be often archetypal because you're touching on uh I don't want to say tropes but I could say like uh fundamental aspects of our Collective unconscious you know and and so to be able to navigate that like you know whatever you want to call it successfully sometimes takes a long time to unpack and so you know we're talking about like you know holding space for yourself yes it's in the moment right and that like you kind of talked about it right you mentioned it a couple times like surrender to the experience you know be with it but don't necessarily get caught in it so like see the fear but don't be the fear you know what I'm saying like because you can see it it inherently is separate from you it's only upon when you lose vision of it that you two are in sync or simultaneous you know there's still that you know like you talked about earlier The Duality that that that occurs but then the holding space for yourself also extends beyond the experience and it is part of the process of digesting something that took you a long time to get to we we at least me you know being a you know a retreat leader and working with this medicine for you know many years now um most people believe that like the experience is okay they take whatever they're taking they have the experience it's over and then they have to unpack it but like realistically in order to get to that moment you had to do all this preparation in order to get there think about it be called to it make the calls pay the money take the time off of work do the diet do some journaling you know what I'm saying like build up anxiousness all this stuff and that amount of time that you put on the be the on the front half you also have to put on the back half in order to help you break this thing down and pull it into your life because you're in such a nonconceptual place that moving back to the a life of forms and Concepts that doesn't overlay on top of it very easily it's actually quite difficult so the I'm you know I'm not going to Pat us on the back because I can't reach your back and and I'm not so flexible to get to mine um but to break it down in such a way that it has tangibility for users or for our listeners here in this case is not easy it's not it's not an easy task so I appreciate you you know uh you know speaking in such eloquence for the way that you did about the you know the darkness and the light and the fear and everything else like this because that comes from uh a real a real lived place because I too when you're thinking when you're talking about it I am not projecting my mind to do your own I'm going into my own mind and my own memories from things that I've experienced and even though their mind and I might describe a little bit different it's identical to what it is that you're talking about yeah yeah and that's so important like we talking about the you know things become cliches so you you can hear certain truths but you have to live you have to earn certain wisdom you know and and like you ain't lying yeah and uh you know like um even just you know my last thas experience I realized the power of uh telling people just it like sounds so simple but like telling people that you love them oh yeah the power in that and so I feel like it gave me like a city like that if I can just go to that moment of just like if I tell someone I love them I can really just tell them that I love them you yes yeah they can feel it and uh it's just really powerful and you can and I can and I'm in that moment right now and I'm just filled with this love and um and uh yeah yeah no it'ss you then your mind just stops to I forgot where yeah for sure I got you yeah there was um yeah there was a question I forgot where I was looking at that was a questionnaire and it was like if you had 20 minutes to live what would you do and uh I wrote down um sit in meditation they give you little you know characters to write you know and I was like sit in meditation and and then I said and I I I answered my own question why question mark because I tell people regularly how much they mean to me and so I don't feel the need to I wouldn't feel the need to call everybody and say I love you and you know you meant so much to me and thank you whatever like I intentionally live as if that I may not get that opportunity you know um and yeah I just felt that fit right there you know yeah yeah it's great yeah really yeah that you you earn certain wisdom and it's and it's and they're important you see what's important yes yes that's what's clear yes yeah that kind of clarity yeah yeah yeah and so yeah so and and you know just kind of like you know always bouncing back to our our thing like holding space for yourself is allowing for the time that it takes to extrapolate the things that you are experiencing when they come through and to your point like I don't know if we were talking about this while we were recording or beforehand but like the Deep experiences are the best ones they're the worst when they're happening for sure they're the worst and you you regret every second of it yeah but then they have such I mean they can last the extrapolation of those experiences can last for years or a lifetime yeah you know and they're so rich that's that's you know we talk about it and but but there's so many levels to understanding like yin and yang we've said it already like a bunch of times you takes a positive and negative to create a current bigger Yin a bigger Yang but it's like your your suffering becomes your superpower yes life it's like you know what you can go through and you know and you can you can go to that depth with anyone like so you the you know what your your range is like how you're going to be okay and and really like even in feeling that love it's like you you restrain tears in your eyes because the I say this a lot in lectures that I give like the the Heartbreak that you can feel is the measure of Your Love ultimately and like so it's not about like one comes one goes can you hold both simultaneously and just have such power yeah have so much life come through you and so it's like just light streaming through and so you know there's a reason love songs are sad tones yeah yeah yeah no it's it's definitely uh it's a thing man it's definitely a thing and and you know you have to have Grace you have to allow yourself to have Grace um because it doesn't always look so clean and you know you've had numer obviously you've had numerous experiences and so you you literally you have a level of I'm going to say comfortability with uncomfortability we don't want to be uncomfortable no no it's not my preference I don't want that but then when but you know because you build a a trust that you're going to pull through you don't know what it's going to look like on the other side but you know that like the other side will come it just takes time you know and then when you get out or you finish or you resolve or whatever it's just so I don't know it's ecstatic in a sense you know yeah yeah it's liberating yeah that's a that's a good word and uh you know we talked about it earlier like holding space and its new Agy and some people may be turned off by that and I think because if you go into some of these things like it's cool not that anything's wrong with that I think it's totally important to follow like what's fun for you and yeah what you're curious about but I think at some point you just you you you hit like the suffering is such a blessing because you realize that the whatever you want to call it the development of wisdom wisdom cultivation healing presence you you learn you do it not because it's moral but it's it's the only thing that works yeah you know it's the it's the tough part about that Rory is that from my experience and we try to be you know magnanimous I always imagine like who's the most random person that would ever hear this and I would hope to hear it and honestly it's somebody who is like a very low socioeconomic means riding on public transportation with kids and single parent you know I'm trying to think like the difficult you know what I'm saying yeah and to try and I would imagine I would imagine that like if I'm going to take the counter point which I don't do all the time but I do pretty regularly you know it's like okay how can I sell somebody that like their their difficulty is their key to success you know now navigating that whatever the case is I can't they have to believe it themselves right because it is a little bit it's faith and experience you have to have faith that that who you're believing is telling you believe belief in who you're who was telling you this but then you have to try it and and then not believe [...] of what you heard but more importantly this concept has to be brought to you because I don't think it is a in the culture I don't think so and B I don't know that it's necessarily innate I mean I it is on some level but I don't think that we get to that place of Stillness where you can sit with whatever it is and go this is here to teach me something because it might be very difficult you know and so one of the things that I hope you know happens through these conversations is that like our you know things that we have learned that wisdom that we have earned hard earned right can be um can be shared with the people who listen to this and then maybe with other people if they share it or whether they share with their word of mouth or whatever that like your like you said your sufferings can become your superpower if you allow it and I think the beginning of that process is just hearing that it's possible you know it's just hearing that it's possible and then the path through through that is the path that you know Eric and I have been talking about for years and sharing all these different practices and and you know mindsets and whatever and you know you're you're forging your own through the the you know DS numerology and and Chinese medicine and now through you know like the different forms of like yogas and things like this that we're all navigating but what are we navigating we're navigating the the alchem the alchemis of difficulty you know the the Turning of suffering into something that we take back we take that back there's a a friend of mine his name is red and uh he's a kind of like a lighter skinned African-American man and um and I've met him numerous times we never had like deep conversation but the other day we were playing music and I was like I was like Hey red he goes yeah I said you don't like that name do you he goes in high school I hated it you know he goes but at some point I just said I'm going to take away this as a as a as an insult to me and I'm going to make it a strength he's like and I've everybody knows me as red and has known me as red for the last you know 30 years so he made that his thing and that's part of his Persona so in like a in a short order this is a way in which you can reclaim some like you know bits of yourself that are difficult yeah well I think man like you know no one's GNA hear me say you know it's it's a blessing you know when they're going through it and right and you be like oh yeah [...] this dude what I mean yeah [...] up yeah yeah but I mean it's like you got two options like like I was saying it's it's just like the the being in plant ceremony or whatever it is it's like you can buckle to the hardship yes or you can try and figure out what how to benefit how to make this stressor benefit you in some way and that's why I think we call it medicine and all that is that it becomes it's either adaptogenic or non- adaptogenic the hardship and the choice is you have somewhat of a choice in that not always not always and then you know then you could call that trauma if it's not adaptogenic yes but you know that's what talking about the spiritual muscle it's like that's what I think spirituality really is I feel like people get mixed up and think morality has is in play and it's not at all it's just like correct in the light of Greater awareness you drop the Lesser for the greater you're you're preaching right now brother keep keep I need to get you a little paple uh little collar here yeah yeah weeping may last for a night that's right boy cometh in the morning that's right well we just you know kind of like you know you know bringing this conversation to a a its tail end here but we we just talked about this the other day so I won't I won't bring it up too much now but yeah spirituality as a as an existence has an has potential to be aesthetic and you know a renunciate life if you want that but that's definitely not the tantric life that's definitely not the you know the the life of the uh of the ecstatic practitioner of the uh you know of the the consumer of reality you know the one that turns everything in from The Alchemist you know the the what do you want to call it the Civilized Alchemist turning all the lead of life into gold right and that's and that's what we're talking about this is the Turning you know yeah um but yeah so so you're preaching in the choir brother yeah yeah it's all Divine exist I'm very much into the dowst you know in our DST clan we drink soju and tequila and you know after we finish doing Chiang and meditating all day and studying and all that you know we yeah in just the spirits you get spiritual no it's yeah it's just like there's no Heaven and Earth are one yeah know and this this plane why stay away from this world you know this is this is a Divine plane yeah and we just forget you know but soon enough we'll be you know when we die there's no cause in your experience and for sure yeah yeah my a friend of mine described that as uh going backwards through a dark tunnel at the speed of light he's like are you going to be are you going to know where where you are at that point probably not so you know don't be scared you know yeah yeah um so yeah so I guess like you know in in you know kind of like just you know finishing up here there is a there's a lot to be said about things that are Beyond conceptuality right actually there's an infinite amount of things to be said that are in reference to things that are Beyond conceptuality um but ultimately to you know give yourself the grace to go through whatever it is that you're going through whether it be in a plant medicine ceremony whether it be part of like one's healing process whether it be I mean how you talked about heartbreak a breakup process you know whatever that might be all of which you know can entail deep hardships for sure and in the moment when you're going through them and you're boohoo and everywhere like you know it's terrible they we're not sugarcoating any of that like this no no no life's hard yes life's hard and suffering is coming for you it is on its way and if it's not here now it's G it's coming at some point um however that doesn't have to be the end of the story you know it doesn't have to be the The Bookmark at every page you know um and I think that's that's kind of like one of your one of your points so you know whether you're holding space for somebody else as they're going through their Journey also remember to do so for yourself because you are going through your journey and whether we want to admit it or not we are our own best friend for sure so thanks man you know um any party shots before we uh before we call it no no I'm I'm with you awesome well man thanks thanks for sharing you were dropping some hammers today you know so uh you know my pleasure man it's it's always a a joy to be with like-minded people and you can just feel like the The Vibes you know it just opens up and that's almost you know that's great I'm happy to be here happy to talk with you yeah know I'm glad glad you're here glad you're a part of it I know our audience will appreciate it uh and as always you know you guys know what you're going to get from me hit us up at Jin and Tantra podcast on Instagram or like comment subscribe share our work give us an email uh at uh Jin and Tantra gmail.com if you want to get a hold of Rory you know you can any any one of the places that you get a hold of me I'll put you in contact with him if you're interested in in working with him um in in one of many ways um you know feel free to get a hold of us and we'll put you in contact or if you have you know questions comments uh no concerns you know we don't have time for that but uh you know we uh we look forward to uh Rory's regular contribution and uh you know to to hearing more of his gems and uh you know and whatever dribble comes out of my mouth will certainly make the stew more flavorful so um Rory thanks for coming on audience thanks for listening uh feror this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace w