[Music] hey fell G and teers those who so like our spirituality with a Twist Daniel's giving me this grin trying to get me to [...] this [...] up [...] yeah every week he goes one he goes three two one we're gonna start and he gets this big ass grin on his face that's right not even that big ass just kind of subtle all right so we are doing uh we were doing the series on attachment theory that was our kind of latest little project yeah um we got like some other episodes in between but we're kind of getting back to that now to get more to the wrapup part of it um we had done one episode where we kind of looked at the sort of initial experiments around this with kids to get where where people got the idea going yeah and then we kind of looked at like what kind of family situations would produce these different kind of responses in the kids right how they develop these kind of styles of attachment that this Theory talks about and now we're going to trace it into adulthood and look at like what happens to adult folks with this yeah and try to tie it back up to like how we think this connects back to uh Tantra spirituality da is Buddhist Sufi kind of stuff we'll kind of kick it around the context of the big picture of what we like to talk about on Jin and Tandra spirituality with a Twist but before that um I got to say the things now at the beginning which is do the liking and the subscribing and all the good stuff Daniel will do it at the end as well but we agreed to do at the beginning too that's right uh and it's like it's so funny because we hear it over and over again but you know we all have to ask people to do it because what helps what helps things grow and defeat the evil algorithm that we're all working to defeat right right the Maya evil delusion goddess of the algorithm that's trying to enslave us all so to help us overcome it little like little subscribe maybe and like try to help be get these things out to people yeah all right attachment Theory into adulthood so the whole idea would be kids develop these Styles when they're young right they have these sort of intrinsic attachment needs and then you get to like certain conditions that kind of like set the tone for how that happens for kids kind of conditions them I guess right and then this potentially uninterrupted will carry into adulthood and the hope for us in doing this is that we present the ideas and then we can all kind of self-reflect and see okay does any of this apply to me and then correct what do the work on these things especially in terms of maybe trying to make these more deeper spiritual relationships with people you know on using these tools to help us do that so tantric relationships suic relationships and so on all right so these attachment needs kind of transfer now in the statistics that I saw around this it's somewhere in this range of 40 to 50% of the people that end up with like secure adult attachment so it's going to be like a lot of folks approximately half of us give or take we're going to have some issues around this and uh again just a brief secure attachment two two minutes because we do have most of our viewers are new viewers on this I think I think the idea would be that you're able to you know it's kind of almost like defined by like contrast with the ones that are bad sure but it's kind of the idea that you're able to connect with people when you need to connect to it connect with them your um one side we'll get to these descriptions in more detail is you're not too closed off and isolated sure so you cut yourself off the other side it's kind of like you're not too like wrapped up in feelings of insecurity and need that lead to kind of maybe more desperate feelings almost right more attenion seeking behaviors it's forced and the last one's really interesting where it gets kind of disorganized where people kind of don't know what to do with themselves and they flit around between these Styles right yeah yeah I think phrase I want to get back to or the phrases I like to get back to later on for me personally that matter a lot maybe once we're done with it the the whole kind of descriptions of the different subtypes would be this idea of having a safe haven the ability to make secure space for yourself to get that part of the needs met and then the idea of like having a secure base which is almost like an exploratory base like you'd have a base and you're able to go out and explore the world from that base right and we're able if you're able to find both of these so I suppose in the secure attachment thing you're able to get both of these kind of set up in some way ways otherwise the idea would be that you're going to have more troubles with relationships there's like definitely research of like poor relationship satisfaction chaotic attachments all this kind of stuff so yeah and I find that these come up in particular as an extension you know of the episode that I did on these things with fedra um and and what we'd have done you know a couple weeks ago now but these really show up during arguments you know or during conflict in MO most what I find most most cutely right and so like and when we talked a couple weeks ago about the attachment styles that were observed during childhood when the parent or the primary caregiver left the room then you saw the uh secure the anxious the avoidant and then the mixed as that when somebody feels like their uh attachment with their partner is threatened based on an argument or what you know disappointment whatever the case is then their attachment style pops up right right at that moment when you feel insecure and threatened right I those are the moments when it's really going to get to it right right kind of like the idea of like the baby ducks who get threatened or something and they try to find their attachment person for security and they can't right yeah yeah and you just watch how people watch how people respond you know if somebody is all over it you know and they're kind of blowing up a little bit it's an anxious style you know or like the the you know like yeah yeah got and somebody and somebody who withdraws or or the ghost you know there's your avoidant and somebody who's willing to kind of work through the conflict probably relatively secure and then someone who does all the above the mixed version you know and it's and I'm not saying that as a as a in a demeaning kind of way but it it is to show that these things are common and that often times they're even inherited or they're observed at a very young age and so when when you're in relationship with somebody not even necessarily although it can be but even when dealing with friends or whomever you can see this pop up and if you're in close enough I believe if you're in close enough communion with them then you can help them address these things by you know gently bringing it to their attention and trying to you know be foster growth in that way so that it is not a detriment to uh the connection you know there's this like a great psychologist Carl Rogers and then Iran yum is another one and they kind of talk about this kind of idea that it's the Rel ship that heals and I'm kind of a big believer in that personally you know I think relationships can be like incredibly healing excite you know like uh expansive right yes and uh yeah I believe in that kind of alchemy between people like I genuinely believe in it I think that's why the these subject matters of some of the psychological stuff we do like this and then you know the tantric stuff and the Sufi stuff the roomy stuff all these things where it's relationships that carry a lot of power yeah a particular believer in that yeah and that's kind of been my experience in my life you know um you get deep things with people and you'll come out transformed for the positive I guess suppose the negative too potentially I was I was just thinking that yeah yeah but there's an Alchemy there potentially for sure that you can use for for good definitely definitely possible yeah all right I guess I'll go through the different styles I kind of give a take on them sure um I used uh Jessica Fern who has this book poly secure um sort of the basis of this I thought she makes some interesting observations just to give her her props right it's a book written for polyamorous people but the attachment stuff in there really isn't focused on any particular group of people with any particular relationship style or anything it's pretty Universal what she's talking about yeah and she you know I think it's well done overall so you know if you're looking for something on this I can give like a little thumbs up to that one and recommend it and it's you know again it's not really for it's you know the title has this polyamory thing in it but it you know it's pretty broad right yeah yeah um and inclusive all right so the first of these kind of what you were talking about um this kind of avoidant dismissive idea where people withdraw you were talking about the ghosting aspect of people right people cut themselves off so the idea was when these people were kids they were the people in the experiment who seemed to like go inside themselves but when you actually looked more closely they were super stressed out so they look okay from the outside but and even when they were reading like stress hormones in these kids and stuff and heart rates they were really showing these signs of stress so that was the pattern right and growing growing up in households I guess where they kind of just like turned off they kind of gave up you know I'm not going to be able to get my needs met so why I even bother is the kind of underlying psychology of these folks on some level right if you trace it into adulthood to share some of the ideas around this we can all kind of look in the mirror and see what we think about it but uh they're more distant she points out that a lot of times they'll tend to see other people as kind of weak needy or dependent because they sort of cut these things off in themselves and they kind of minimized them so they're the kind of people that will look at other people and I've known people like this so look at others kind of weak and vulnerable they don't like the emotions as much I have one important in my person in my life like this and it was really funny because I was saying to her you know like sometimes you don't understand the difference between like a thought and a feeling they're not the same thing I was trying to talk about something and I was going I was just like kind of like expressing it just for like the the camaraderie of it you know and just like the oh yeah that sucks that it's like that or whatever right know I didn't need like a whole solution presented I wasn't even interested in that in the moment you know there's an old show called Buffy the vampire sler that I happen to like which Daniel probably never watched a single episode no no no I did I've watched a bunch of episodes oh you like it too okay surprisingly yes there's a great conversation they have where Buffy's trying to like talk to one of the other characters Willow who's one of her best friends you know and uh Willow is learning magic you know like actual like Hogwart kind of magic Harry Potter magic not like cart trick so you know she's learning magic and she's having some hard times with it so she talks with Buffy and she says you know is laying out the problem and then Buffy tries to like say something back which hits completely wrong and Willow's like uh uh what what are you doing and she gets super upset and then Buffy goes oh I didn't realize we were having a different conversation we were having the I feel your pain conversation not the you know it's no big deal conversation or let me solve the problem for you conversation yeah I thought that's such a wise little piece of writing because people get it wrong yes yeah yeah and I think that's why I was trying to express a little bit like you don't know the difference between the thought and the feeling is just a feeling I don't need a whole checklist of how I'm going to solve some [...] yeah anyways you want to you wanted to be heard yeah I just needed to like get the emotion out and that's it that I feel like this is a very common uh conversation in couples typically with the female side saying I just want to be heard and the male side saying but but I could fix it I have an idea I I'm gonna give you a solution well my daughter always gives me [...] I'm a little effeminate so I'll take that that's your that's your inner inner uh inner deity yes yes yes my inner Tara was like just expressing emoting yeah yeah yeah but it is something if you might you C might catch people who are like this this idea that they kind of minimize the emotion aspect of thing and I'll see other people as being kind of weak or needy or dependent yeah she kind of theorizes that maybe some of these people even though I might show a stronger exterior they have some of the self-esteem self-esteem issues you might get everybody can have these things um I guess overall all there's are questions of like their ability to connect relationship wise and then sometimes sexually too because they can't kind of like give over to the emotions of sexuality right I can do the physicality of it but maybe not the emotionality of it the they tend to minimize relationships and and they kind of be more repressive of their feelings right and so they don't understand emotions they're more logical people and they may not get it there's a kind of interesting sub observation that they say that they don't remember their childhood very well and their relationships might be a little bit kind of generic or something and I there might be something to that when I think of people who are a little bit more like this you ask them and they'll say oh everything was great and if you ask them details they'll be like very vague about like the things that happened even when they're kind of dramatic sometimes the person I was thinking about actually had a woman like commit suicide in front of her oh jumped off a building and landed in the courtyard and she talks about it like kind of like it's nothing you know so kind of a tough person on some level but you you also feel like I'm kind of minimizing kind of but great person you know what's that definitely Beyond kind of yeah um but the genericness of it and the minimizing of it is I guess one of the features of this sure that's a dramatic example of that but right but it's a protective mechanism for sure yeah you would think so yeah they um and so in a certain sense there's a denial aspect to this we did these episodes on defense mechanisms back yeah to go right and this is sort of a denial of the more vulnerable emotions right maybe kind of like an inability to kind of recognize those things and then maybe it cuts them off from other aspects you know like uh kind of like lack of body awareness sometimes because the emotions will sometimes be so much there within the body right that thing in Buddhism where you have like the form aggregate you know the physical part of the person and the emotional parts right yeah there and there might have a little bit of a cut off around that but yeah it's funny because you know they have like a lot of Independence and stuff so many positive traits too uh then she kind of captures it at the end with the idea that they do well kind of being alone uh rather than being with others and it can be kind of harder for them to move back and forth yeah all right so that's that one you got anything else you want to throw no and that's the avoidant one correct that's the avoidant dismissive yeah yeah yeah and then um what you were talking about before the anxious preoccupied one yeah and I think the whole idea is that these folks as kids learned if I make a lot of like gestures to get the attention and the needs met maybe I'll get them yeah so they like to you know it's kind of almost this over anxious reaching out coming from this kind of vulnerable insecure place these would be um in your nervous system response uh the the previous people would be your your flight folks yeah I guess that's right and these would be your fawning folks that probably seems about right to it yeah and I guess as a kid you just learned yeah that idea if I if I fa make noise cry whatever I can get the attention that I need met yeah unless I make a big sound it's not going to happen correct yeah so um so again it kind of like like I'll go to the Jessica Fern stuff again this kind of extreme need for closeness uh fears of loss and abandonment you know which again like self-esteem stuff across the Bor with all of this right mhm but then this idea that they'll kind of like Monitor and Har over the partner because they feel insecure right yeah there's these things of vulnerability to others then this can be felt as sort of like overcontrolled for that person there coming from this anxious space but it can be kind of pushing ironically pushing the partner away in adulthood right yeah and it kind of like drives the other person to like pull back in general she it kind of points out too that people these kinds of folks will move very quickly into relationships kind of driven by anxiety and maybe that means they won't be as selective as they could be you know they won't differentiate out who's like the best people for them right yeah their level of discernment is not as high because of their desire to have the connection they're willing to accept things that are not necessarily on their want list yeah yeah yeah yeah I guess blind spots to is this the correct person or not I think we probably both know people like this for sure too yeah I think they're in the mirror um so you know and they don't leave space to explore whether the relationship is right or not right they're like so in so fast right yeah and then yeah they're kind of almost like overcommitted in before they really could tell what the true dynamic of the thing is going to be yeah um then there's kind of element of like maybe could be self-sacrifice for dependent needs and there's kind of an irony like this may not always even match what the partner really wants but they're kind of sacrificing stuff to kind of pull the person closer but it might be ironic in the sense of like God this partner doesn't even want these things but it's sort of the space that this person tends to come from right yeah and uh as far as like other clans to use the fancy kind of Buddhist word for um kind of these Nega negative emotions and negative mental States they call them claas right so there's kind of jealousy possessiveness um uh and then kind of interesting things with like sexuality she mentions too so these vulnerabilities of jealousy and possessiveness are there back when we were talking about like tantric Partnerships that was one of the things they did bring up you have to like minimize the jealousy and possessiveness yes a lot of people feel these things so deeply and it's cultural too but it's a deep question and then she mentions like sexuality things that are kind of interesting like the person might engage in sexual things that they don't really want or really enjoy but they'll do it just to sort of get that connection with that person which that's observant too I think right yeah yeah where maybe like the avoidant person they'll engage in sexual things but it's harder for them to fully let themselves go right you got the pooch in the background I've never seen yeah he's back there now um uh where for these kinds of people um they're engaging in sexuality and they're doing things maybe they're trying to like I think maybe their underlying goal is to hold the person close yeah and and it's attention you know when when someone's undivided attention is on you then there is nothing then then there is nothing else that is there you are important you know I'm thinking of um you know people who are who who enjoy the you know thoroughly enjoy the the submissive role you know yeah that even though maybe other people might not think that like oh what gets done in that in that role is for them the people who are in that role I would imagine know that they have the undivided attention of the person who was being the more dominant in that in that moment you know yeah yeah and they are the focus of their attention they get all of the all of the things that are that is being emitted at that time and they matter yeah and I guess it's a question of like whether the person truly enjoys that or not fully you know what I mean or whether they're doing that from some place of insecurity and need to like be pleasing right hard to say you know very hard to say very hard to say I don't even know if in those kinds of situations I mean I've I've never you know experienced you know the the kind of like the deeper ends of that you know yeah um I don't even know if it's even approp to ask I'm assuming so you're going to have to have conversations around safe words and boundaries and whatnot but like I like is asking someone psychology in those moments is that is that a turn is that a no no I don't I have no idea I don't know well that's like you know one are those things right if you don't figure that stuff out ahead of time that's where those things get really potentially effed up right right I want to go into like all the details we had lady India on lady India on for one of our episodes back if you want to go back and she was really interesting to talk to because she's more deep into that world yeah for sure was and she I get what she was saying though she was sort of saying like I came from a place where I was more you know sexuality and relationship had been damaging for her in different ways you can listen to her describe that in the episode if you're curious to go back and hear it um but she also said like the whole kind of uh SNM community subd community was very healing for her because you could sort of playh with ideas of trust which is probably the better way that that'll work yes rather than if you're just doing it like as a people pleaser or something like that right yeah yeah yeah and that I do understand you know those elements of trust and sexuality can be pretty fascinating if you get the right person it's almost a trust game right yeah you helped develop one person really we were really good with that with one another like we could kind of play the trust well you're developing you're developing that secure attachment through these little you know Mini uh experiences you know yeah you're devel you're trusting them but that's giving you security you know to to have in that other person and then therefore you're having it within yourself I guess there's something fascinating like when you get to the sexual aspects of like pushing those little boundaries of trust a little bit yeah you know yeah there's an excitement to that right and like then like a kind I guess in Buddhism you say like a magnetizing like a feeling of closeness because you know you're going to a space you know yeah it's deep it is yeah um all right anyways she also Jessica Fern going back to this kind of group of folks they talk about she talks about kind of like emotional confusion where the person may not always be able to tell their own feelings from the partner's feelings they're EMP they're empathic I guess you'd say right sensitivities but they're sometimes are confused by like where the cut offs are this man this is so common this is so common yeah yeah yeah people are very sensitive you know in general especially in in this kind of world and when I say this kind of world I mean the healing world the kinkier places the people who are probably a little bit more Progressive in their views people who are a little bit more hippie your artistic folks your creative folks your neurod neurod Divergent folks the you know these kinds of folks um they tend to be very empathic and I hear it in the clinic I don't know how much you hear it in the clinic Eric but you know people who say they take on other people's stuff yeah and they swear they're like but it's not mine it's not mine it's not mine and I'm inclined to believe them but it's still they're still presenting with it so whether or not it's it's quote unquote theirs or not theirs it's yours now you know what I'm saying and and so this again the term discernment comes up once again as to you know how can you navigate someone else's emotions while still maintaining your autonomy and being you know sympathetic to their situation and and sort of what I say you know lending out your heart without taking all of your you know without taking on the other person's stuff not knowing how to discharge it if that if that makes sense yeah I like the idea of like discernment which is like a very tantric Buddhist tantric sounding word right has to do with like the fire elements right or the fire phase right and like that idea of like discernment and fire like casting light on things yes casting a light on this so now I can see and clarify what's going on right that whole idea where I think what you know like I get what she's saying here she's saying like you know there's this sensitivity and there can be just a confusion within those emotions right yeah they'd be like very we haven't done like the five phase or astrology or these other kinds of things with these folks but there's a kind of a watery quality to this too right sure yeah um I guess like I suppose okay again she says like they're very sensitive but they can be confused by their partner's emotions and like attributing things accurately or something that's very interesting you know when you get people who are really close I was having some thoughts about this today sometimes even from afar there's those feelings right where you're like okay I'm feeling something with this person and you sort of Wonder like is that me is that them you know but you almost maybe have to ask those questions at time times right to get that discern thing going and really say okay what I my feeling here because if you're really close with people you can you can feel those things right yeah and there's a and it's there it's not all negtive I'm not you know so for people who are listening I'm not poo pooing on it I'm just saying some people are far more sensitive to others and in relationship and you know maybe we're talking currently about like maybe romantic Partnerships but it's also goes to friends and you know if you're talking with somebody and they had they're going through a rough time and you hang out with them and you feel drained afterwards you know well that can happen but then you know we have to look at the way in which you're engaging with that person right are you engaging with them as their therapist are you engaging with them as their friend are you really putting yourself in their shoes do you need if you're that sensitive do you need to do that or can you just kind of listen from a compassionate place and not get yourself involved and on the other on the you know the flip side of that if it's your romantic partner and you're definitely involved or it's one of your romantic Partners depending on where you you know find yourself on the scale um you know and you are you know intimately and emotionally physically you know involved you're going to feel it but again that kind of self-checking with the process is it yours is it theirs and like you're saying to do this check it on a regular basis because people want to avoid the negative part of this kind of connection for sure because they feel like they're that they're carrying around their partner's grief and they don't want to do it cuz who we have our own right yeah yeah yeah but then on the other hand if you're close with somebody it is lovely to take out your phone and start texting somebody and a text message comes through from them because you felt them from afar yeah you know like that's that's nice or you think of something that they mentioned once a long time ago and boom now you bring it home and they were like I was just thinking about that today and you're like well here it is you know so those are the benefits of it but we have to we have I you know for me we have to take both sides the the beautiful synchronicities that occur and then also the you know being in the trenches with the person because you do have these kind of like psycho emotional connections but I think you know to summate my point what you saying is is it's a regular uh Act of communication you using specifically discernment to tell what is what as you're experiencing it you know what is yours what is theirs and making that very clear so then you can develop a relationship with yourself that can you can check in and say I'm feeling blank traditionally this when I when I feel this I'm reminded of my partner but I've checked in now and I it's just it's it's for me to check in not necessarily for me to feel bad about or X Y or Z or whatever you know so you have to kind of develop this internal dialogue via your Sensations so that you can feel like you have autonomy within the connection I think like yeah you know I think the the Buddhist Tantra doist aspects of this like having with interconnect contivity is really kind of amazing right because on some ultimate level we're all like interconnected that's like one of the principal thesis right yes yeah the flower ornament Sutra talks that way you know we're all interconnected on some level now if you have deeper karmic things with people you're more interconnected yeah in this immediate sense right maybe not in an ultimate sense but in the relative sense you're more entwined with them though you're tied in with everything right but you know you have these deeper karmic bonds with people right they're more profound so you are going to feel people and so then it's this weird question of what do you do about that I'm cheating ah head a little bit because I guess we could say what you do about it when we're done with all of them but we might as well say it here some of it go for it I know for me like when I was going to do Zen I had done psychological stuff and that was being able to self-reflect and start to discern in that sense right so I had my psych Mentor Dr Michael schner thank you so much Michael for helping with all these things right and again I came from a kind of a a troubled background probably the next thing this confusion because the household was so random and all over the place and chaotic right yeah so so II some avoiding features probably some of these anxious features in me um but part of that was that Clarity of the psychological part and kind of defining those things being able to turn inside and more accurately identify things a discernment right my feeling of the Zen thing as far as this stuff goes was almost like and I think we'll totally get each other with this was almost like the idea of like like an electrical kind of analogy like capacitance like a capacitor how much charge can you hold you know and I remember thinking about that a lot because you know the more charge that's kind of a Zen Vibe but the more charge you can hold the more at ease you are with things you know the tensions of things don't bother you you can hold a charge right it doesn't freak your [...] out and that was kind of important too you know and I think I did think of it in almost like an electromagnetic kind of a way or something right you know capacitor is like a thing that holds electrical charge the more the Capac say for people oh yeah sorry you know it holds electric charge right and the bigger the capacitor is the more charge you can hold yeah I remember thinking this Zen is interesting you know because you just develop more and more capacitance right and so stuff doesn't bother you as much you know so that was part of growing um when I got to studying with uh you know uh my DS teacher and Chinese medical teacher Master Wong Master shangle Wong he had this really good advice about the one hand finding like starting to find the happy spot within yourself we're going to do a retreat on Buddhist Tantra coming up in the next week or so right yes yeah and uh you know part of that's like can you find your bliss space right inside can you meditatively train yourself for that and it was kind of similar with him so that made a difference too because you can find that spot then you're less thrown again right he also thought that there was like this big sea of energy that we could all tap into so so in that case you don't feel like you're just supporting yourself with your own energy you feel like you're supporting yourself with like know he would use the word truei which is kind of like a Chinese medical term for uh xeni true the truei of the universe you can tap into I have students come up to me and ask me about this like how do I go through and deal with patients and not take on their stuff and I think I learned the most for that Daniel for me like working with Master Wong because he was like you know you don't have to just use it for your own energy you're part of a big sea of energy does that make sense you or how do you think about that shamanic yeah so that's a good that's a good way of that's a good idea yeah sort of uh dipping into the universal potential for the moment if you will when dealing with patients or if you know because there's people here who are practitioners but you know fortunately our our audience is growing and people are do all different kinds of things so we try to kind of relate it to your regular life and just say you're dealing with friends or family or your kids or whatever um and you do feel like maybe some problem is overwhelm overwhelming to you or you don't have the answers because who has all the answers and yet in the moment you're compelled to provide support for someone right so you don't want to go H I don't know you know and then just walk away like that that that seems like you'd be abandoning that person and so then Eric I think if I'm just summarizing what you're saying you're saying is it like you can kind of relax and tap into like a a larger sense of the subconscious if you will or this greater field that's around you is that well he was definitely like being very like Chinese dos where he was sand Masters would talk this way too I remember like kind of like realizing they're saying a similar thing I think you know you can feel overwhelmed when I have to hold this just me right you know but if I feel like I have a connection to like however this is for each person if you're a da it's like the da yeah you know or like the Buddha nature of every thing or like The Big C of like Master Wong's term was like truchi you know the true energy of the universe you know that's kind of healing and supportive and all that so a lot of his training that I really enjoyed that made the biggest difference for me was sorry feeling oh I can connect into this bigger sea of energy right yes so I don't have to hold this all just myself you know I'm I can tap into something bigger than me or something and it doesn't feel as overwhelming so it's kind of an interesting meditative thing you know I yeah and so you can the an the answer is you are more than just yourself yeah I think that's right you are more than just the way that you think yourself to be so you are more than Eric I am more than Daniel listener to this I know we say listeners but only one person is listening at a time unless you're with a friend right yeah so we're really just talking to one person so you who is listening right now you are more than just you whatever your name is whatever your identity is you are more than just that and what does that mean that means that you have all the things latent to your life inside of you that will either be uh relearned or awakened or however you want to look at that when in terms of absorbing uh information from the external world uh but ultimately those things reside with inside of you as a number one so if you ever feel like you don't have the right answers then just take your time be quiet for a moment and then come with something that comes really from the heart allow it to arise a lot of times the thoughts that we have at the very superficial aspects of our mind are just thoughts they're just you know boom boom boom boom boom but like let something rise from you and then simultaneously release the expectations of being correct because if you're wrong you're wrong it does it's not necessarily about being right at that time it's about holding space Eric like you talked about earlier you just wanted to be heard you didn't need it right yeah true right so that's so that's part of it and then the other part is that like we don't have to and so the same thing you are more than just yourself you don't have like you said you don't have to carry it it's not that you're taking all of this on and holding it inside of this little body you can take this and put it in a larger bank that can hold infinite amounts of information because it already does and so therefore it's not this all these feelings this information this whatever response is not locked with inside of your body it's held in the infinite container of all possibility being listened to and responded to by the being who created all of it and its manifestation in this reality via US if you believe in this way you know what I'm saying and so as the shamanic perspective or as the tantric perspective you are more than just you in the in the large sense you could say you're an emanation of light of the infinite light of of all creation or in a more maybe like we could say specific example you are an emanation of something that you identify with as a being so if if you have a a deity practice you know and you believe in Jesus will start here well then you're an emanation of that you know Holy Trinity or Jesus himself or whatever so you can take soulless and that you believe this and this is what's coming forth you're pulling from that and if you are a tantric Buddhist and you see yourself as you know vaju yogini or Tara or something like this then you're an emanation of that and that's the being that is coming through if you're Hindu then you're you know you see Ganesha or Shiva or KH you do that and if you're a shamanic practitioner and you have some guides that you work with you know whether they be animal or person or combination of both then you're an emanation of that and that is the being that is also doing the work with the person that you are holding on so you don't have to be limited to the capacity for which you believe you can contain and you don't have to be limited to the capacity to which you can come up with something on the moment on the spot with the quote unquote right answer for someone you can take your time and go a little bit deeper and allow the the correct you know the correct answer for the moment that feels right for you to arise from the center of your being yeah I remember like how striking it was I heard it from like again Master Wong who was my Chinese medical mentor and kind of DWIs teacher sure but before that it was um Toyota Sensei who was like a great a kidist in Chicago area like real high level you know you know like one of the fundamental teachers in that whole tradition and also became a pretty great zen master over the time that I was kind of watching him he really you could kind of feel he searched for I remember him saying he was kind of giving his talk I think maybe we mentioned this in some episodes way way back in the day but he was basically just saying don't worry about energy there's tons of energy all around you sure don't worry about there's lots of energy you can tap into you know in a positive sense it's not all negative it can be you know the pure more positive energies and that that really struck me and it it's sometimes it's hard to like you know get to like feeling like you can believe in that or accept that you know sometimes it's maybe like I was think about this with our Retreat coming up some sometimes you just have to sort of like suspend disbelief a little bit and go okay let me just try you know and see what you feel right feel that there's more there than what you think so that can be a that can be hard sometimes in the beginning I know yeah all right so on these folks um again so the other thing that yeah she mentions this is again these particular kind of like uh these anxious preoccupied folks is they they can kind of lose their sense of self too and I've heard people talk that way me they feel like they kind of lose who they are in the midst of all this emotion uh wrapping it up they they have these fears of Abandonment they have these fears of being rejected right so they have all this anxiety so they're then this hyper tuned attuned kind of sensitive thing where they can lose themselves and others they need all this reassurance and then they tend to like overcommit to things and then that doesn't always so great so yeah so their idea is that they struggle more with being alone is the basic concept this so I think that's a little complicated you know yeah yeah okay the last of these folks you know wrap this one up we don't want to have this one dragging on yeah so the last of these folks is disorganized fearful avoidant like both the other versions that are kind of messed up I think the idea is that you know with the environment for these kids they just couldn't figure out how to get any of this stuff met and sometimes the environment is very cha chaotic or fear and in um specifically the notion that the person that you want to connect with as an object of security is also the one that's threatening you so something fritzes out inside of you right so you know people come from environments where there's like Abus of parents and things like that especially yeah you know like okay you're the person who's supposed to protect me and I'm supposed to go to you but you're the one that's harming me right the whole system freaks out right uh you know on some deep level I guess right I mean that's an interesting idea already there to my mind like it just loses it yeah because this fundamental thing can't find a home base and it's you know it has those ingrained qualities and there's no place for it to go so all right the the description of these folks would be you know they're uncertain whether to attach or pull back then they don't know how to do this sometimes they'll be close sometimes they'll pull back again they don't know how to make a consistent strategy of connecting and with the idea that it's almost like a strategy kind of right that an organism learns really young that's kind of interesting too I think right isn't there a Britney song that goes sometimes I run sometimes I hide there might be what do I know from Britney Spears whoops I did it again that song yeah um Britney she had a lot of her own I is she okay now I don't want to go up on Britney because much time this episode but she definitely had things going on for sure yeaha semi biographical because it seemed like her upbringing was pretty difficult yeah um oh so then okay other kind of stuff like this they're uncertain like whether they trust or not because sometimes the trust has been kind of dangerous right the people that they tried to be open to were damaging yeah um and uh yeah they'll kind of demand attention but then when someone gives the attention they can withdraw or feel like it's not right I maybe I was guilty of that I don't know um internal uh distrust of themselves right and uh this idea of feeling I I guess like again lot of self-esteem things with this you know I think these people can really feel kind of broken inside and maybe because they haven't really gotten the kind of love and support at all they can feel really kind of unworthy would be the idea well I believe it I would I would imagine at some point you don't have an answer for the reality that you're in whereas the person who was supposed to be helping to nourish you and balance your nervous system and balance your sense of you know safety within the world is the one who is creating trauma and making you feel unsafe that you would in a from a sense of powerlessness blame yourself yeah that makes sense right because you don't really have many other options you can't blame them you're too young really or too you know unable to push away and get Space to think so you're Pro my my I mean at least in in the moment I would imagine you would blame yourself because what else would you have to blame what other how would you learn any other way right well the whole feeling of like and I I don't have these things anymore but I can remember this stuff when I was younger this whole idea like well I guess I'm just not worthy of being loved somehow like those kinds of feelings right because obviously these people are supposed to be have nice feelings for me and they're dumping a bunch of [...] on me so right I guess that's my fault or like some lack in me right you know yeah that makes sense kind of like an odd desperation of these things too it's it's an odd anecdote but I can remember like just not sure this is like being a young kid and just to show how weird this stuff gets you know I was just not sure how to get right attention and I remember like doing this weird thing where I was trying to set up like it looked like I fell off this this like dresser thing I laugh now because it seems funny in retrospect but I had like rigged up this whole thing to make it look like I had fallen and I was going to lay on the ground under the debris of this accident to see if I could get people to respond in some way and I think I laid there for a while and nobody came so the whole setup was just like me laying under like a false kind of like like i' Fallen under all these things like you know symbolic and uh then at a certain amount of time I realized like well nobody's coming and then I also had some part of me that was like well this is kind of ridiculous even though I was like maybe six or seven years old I real like okay and I just cleaned all the [...] up but it was just kind of like and I look back at it when I was you know reading this doing our research kind of rereading this book about this I was thinking oh yeah I had some of those weird qualities you know as a kid and U anyways I don't feel those things as an adult and I don't feel I can not like I don't feel sad about you know the people adults around me who were difficult I'm over all that you know and I think you can heal from these things which is positive but I could reflect back and go like yeah that was pretty just strange well in adulthood Eric they might call these a damsel in distress yeah maybe so it's a second reference to me being a feminine but I'm going to take it well I mean I meant just I don't me you I didn't mean you damel in distress well I meant like all the [...] I piled on top of me as an adult though you Kitty books and chairs and yeah as an adult could be right could be people who need you know who are always kind of needing saving or you know assistance in that I wonder about that with the anxious one too sure you know U the anxious preoccupied one so just like as we try to like find ourselves on this you know this Jessica Fern kind of gives kind of a different version of what this might look like for people because you know um you might see more of the the kind of avoidant part in these people or you might see more of the anxious part but then she also makes an interesting thing where she says some of this might be more obvious from the outside the person will act these things out right and you'll see the obvious like it like okay I need to connect or I'm G to pull back I don't know what to do with myself it might more more transparent in in their behavior but she also talks about people who you wouldn't know that from the outside but all that shit's going on inside of them and there might be this holding that more internally so I don't know if you think about people around you where you're trying to understand this and others or we thinking about our eles that's an interesting thing to think about it might not be as obvious in your behavior but might you might be feeling those things kind of on the inside so anyways you know a lot of like you know I think what you brought up earlier Daniel too and this applies to all of these was sort of the situational aspects of this right so you were talking about like in an argument or in Conflict right you might see some of these things pop up you realize oh this is that part of me right so we could talk about that with like all of them but I think you know she specifically mentions it with this one too where some people might go situationally disorganized when you feel like you're under stress or you're uncertain about your connection with the person and it like triggers all this crap in you yeah you know comes out and then you're like well that was odd like why did that happen to me under these circumstances you know if the argument is good enough you know if it's strong enough you're gonna feel that way for sure and I guess you go back what you were saying you go back to whatever the one is like the habitual one yes the one that's kind of the home base yeah for sure I guess we'll do more of the Tantra of this next time yeah know but it's interesting then like the situational of this because I can still sometimes feel that like um and this might be something to think about if you when you are interacting with other people if you have this sort of Concepts in your head it can be helpful yeah you can kind of go like oh this person is really avoidant and I show anxious preoccupied things under stress that means I'm going to be searching for them to you know connect with me somehow and they're not going to want to do it it right and they're going to pull back and this is going to escalate you know yes so sometimes like understanding these things is like kind of good you you see it in others right yeah it's the first you know we talk about this all the time but you know it is the way in which you can find yourself to not be as I guess identified with unconscious processes that are always being played out and especially when the situation is with more stress yeah and you can find yourself not you know to be more who you want to be I don't think that like a couple that has an anxious F person and an avoidant person want to constantly play out that exact same drama over and over and over again where one the anxious person is reaching out looking for something looking I need I need I need and the avoidant person's like are we done yeah you know like can we can we move on I'm going to go watch TV you know what I mean maybe there's be better by the time I get back or I'm going to take a drive whatever because it doesn't work and it and over a long period of time it doesn't it won't work you know someone is going to have to make a a sacrifice for their deep sacrifice of their happiness in order to keep this thing going if the dynamic isn't change so I think part of this thing that we're doing is always you know uh Liberation through hearing right through kind of like education if you will you know um and I just I love this I love this quote from Marcel PR you know it says uh why have we been abandoned and we identify the reasons for our discomforts uh so it because it doesn't necessarily absolve absolve us of our pain but it can form the basis of recovery by assuring us that we are not uniquely cursed I know I said that a few weeks ago but yeah yeah we were talking about that yeah but it still it still resonates you know because it's talking about you know uh freeing yourself through learning yeah I guess like you know we get to the end of it I think Jessica Fern makes a point about this too which is like you don't want to over identify with like your attachment style she says some people will do that I'm an avoidant you know person I'm a disorganized person and so on I mean that's not healthy right you get too rigid in that but there is something about like you know you have this is the like like in in like spiritual path kind of stuff what they call expedient means right yeah you have tools to help you understand what's going on around you that you can go oh well wait a minute I learned this set of ideas but this person's really acting a just avoidant okay that means inside they're probably really stressed out right so I should understand that about them they look like they're non-responsive but really inside their heart rate's probably going their cortisol levels are rising you know their shit's all freaked out even though they're not showing it on the outside okay I understand and I'm I'm a person who needs a lot of attention or vice versa whatever it is you can start to understand this on others the only last thing I guess is you know before we close up what I really like about these kind of conversations too that I think is important in our like spirituality things and we've done this great before but sometimes when people talk about getting over stuff especially like the claes and the negative emotions they use these super like mundane situations that have like no punch to them or kicked to them at all you know I'm mad in traffic is like the cliche that you always hear you know so I need to get over my negative emotions by not being mad in traffic which is probably true but like let's get serious you know that's not when these things really come up right they come up in these situations right the ones where you really have to understand yourself in the moments where things are like there's much more at line on the line and much more at stake I got pet peeve about that but you know I was just thinking about that now you know we're really talking about like some of the most intense experiences you're going to have in your whole life potentially yeah you talk about your really serious arguments with people yeah where these things are on the line right those are some of the most challenging things you're going to have and that's where you want to be able to use the tools that you got and also find yourself in those situations and you know bring out the best of it right and then you evolve and change right those are the moments of transformation right opportunities yes yeah opportunities even though it's not the most Pleasant way right exactly all right I it seems good to me seem good to you yeah I think so awesome maybe we'll just do one more thing on it just to kind of do the Tantra of it tie it all in but we've done some of that but looks good yeah that sounds good sounds good to me well Eric thank you thanks so much as always appreciate the uh the the hopping on the ship and doing the thing audience thank you so much for listening one listener right now or uh maybe you and a friend thanks for uh thanks for tuning in you know uh like subscribe or just subscribe like don't like that doesn't really matter you know I mean everything helps you know in the algorithm of the of the world but uh you know we appreciate all the love for sure uh if you have been tuning into the the the channel for a little bit and you haven't subscribed yet it helps us grow it's completely free to you we don't ask for any money from anybody so this is just a matter of Love uh for us you know it's a passion project for sure uh one that we probably will never be out of passion for uh but you know we we do somehow find more energy and more passion when when people are engaged a little bit so um leave a comment if if you have a question or feel free to hit us up uh ginand Tantra gmail.com or slide into our DMS on the in on the gram as the kids call it the IG what's happening which uh Jin and Tantra podcast on the old IG you know uh send us a message we'll get back to you for sure and if you know us personally send us a text message messenger pigeon or smoke signals we'll definitely uh we'll holler back for sure for Eric this is Daniel I think last time I checked we'll catch you guys in the next one peace a