[Music] hey FG and teers those of us like our spirituality with a Twist so we have uh gone in different directions with these episodes recently we had on Dr th we had on fed Shantal we had on some really great guests and now we're going to double back to something that we had started a bit ago and will probably be an ongoing project also part of a little bit of a book project for Daniel and I fingers crossed fingers crossed toes also if you're out there cross a bunch of stuff for us yeah please yeah figure out how to cross if there some great yoga can cross weird things cross weird things too yeah exactly um because uh you know there's these DST nine obstacles or our alternative title is uh nine things that and we're going to go through them we're g to cover them one by one in the episodes and I guess as we're doing we're kind of writing a book you know it's a little bit of shout out to Robert Thurman alternative title to his latest book which was cheer the [...] up yeah nine things that could [...] you up and uh we did a couple of them already so we're up to number three our first one was talking about insecurity excessive concerns about security the second one was problems with I guess you'd say family of origin right yeah and now we're into problems with spouse and children and you know Danny and I were talking before we flipped the recording in on and you know we have different takes on this you know and different parts of this to say so I think it's like it's great you know we'll share it with y'all and in a certain sense we're going to share it with one another too because we haven't talked about we've talked about these issues before a lot obviously but um we haven't uh haven't talked about exactly this so um for me full confession uh I could be in a slightly darker place recording this episode because I feel a little bit of heartache and yet when I was thinking about it today I thought well you don't want to make like a pessimistic episode I don't want to do that and I didn't want to have the episode infused with some of my more I don't know the more immediate kind of uh heart ay feelings that I might be feeling I wanted to talk about this in a in a genuine way in an optimistic way but also in an honest way those three things I guess kind of the genuine way also was like to be honest about it you know not to say that it's is all Wedding Bells and wedding cake and things like that because it absolutely isn't think that way is naive so in part like I'm going to try to talk honest what I think about some of this stuff and but also like you know was as was important for me when I was thinking about it this morning I texted some people about it I had some conversations with people about it and I was like well I don't want to do this in any way that is also pessimistic so anyways realistic but also with some feelings of optimism and when I was thinking about in the morning I was going well what's the optimistic part for me when I looked at it honestly also with maybe a sense of optimism it was like well my positive realization was something like this and I shared off you Daniel we've talked about this kind of thing before but we revisit you'll tell me what you think for me it was something like the idea like it's not the DA's fault I don't blame this on the Dao if these things don't work because I think in some way the da is providing the opportunities for beautiful experiences between people I think that's really true I think there are very deep beautiful romantic and spiritual bonds between people there in potentiality I honestly believe that that's true and thinking about that way I thought well this is this is great you know to think this you know the ingredients are kind of there out there in potentiality right yeah maybe you just kind of like add the water and give it a stir or something but the ingredients are there for things and that made me feel good you know that there's a certain Beauty to this right yeah that really are possible abilities for these things and it's like not even necessarily always that subtle I think sometimes the da or the universe or the Buddhist goddesses we shout at people about this you know we did the episodes on Carl Yung and it was like synchronicities and shouting of the universe like this is an important person recognize this you know yeah yeah the positive part is that you know those possibilities are actually there so in that sense I felt like okay this is not the fault of The Da and that felt like the good news to me the gospel of the good news I felt like the fault the downside of it to me is probably the fault seems more to be in the people it seems to be in us not in Our Stars you know I think the possibilities are there but the fault is more in the people and maybe in the society that molds the people so I still feel that way but on the other hand I feel like the possibilities are in the spiritual sense in the metaphysical sense and that's sense there so anyways that feels like the positive to me does that make sense to you yeah yeah it does yeah I felt also like I'll share it in the beginning because it was kind of interesting I was thinking about the societal aspect of this and the people aspect which is obviously one of my hot issues Eric before you go there let me let me add because so you're you're you're referencing like the univer the the hand the Invisible Hand That is you know writing The Narrative of our individual and Collective Journeys right and and not blaming the hand that is writing the story but the characters that are within the story right this is what you're kind of saying I was going to say like as quote of the show for me I was going to say yes the world the world is all merely a stage but the script sucks okay so okay so I would blame it more on the script than on the spiritual factors of people I think there's something wrong and I'll talk about more from a DA's point of view da in this one um finish your thought though I didn't mean to like you know no no no you're good I guess like the the question comes into like mistakes like where do you fall or what is your take on this idea of of you know mistakes or things that are done you know improperly incorrectly I guess you can look at like the ethical or moral code of the particular time that you're in the laws that you're working around but let's just go for right here Society right now in life you know because I think this is an important in my mind any way it's an important delineation on what makes a particular time or a particular R relationship more or less difficult is when we're operating within some Paradigm that we could feel comfortable in you know what I'm saying and so and and I think when we step outside of that that it feels it has emotionality or physicality that like oh doesn't feel good or this seems off or something like this is it what I'm saying making sense to you let me like go back and like I get to the part that like hit me first and then maybe I'll ask you for a clarification on it sure you know to me I don't know if there's like a magical invisible hand like guiding all the events or something I don't know if I feel that way exactly okay I'm always using that kind of poetically you know what I mean I do feel though that like um as opposed to maybe you know a a theistic way of thinking yeah like there's some deity that's saying You Belong with this person in this way or something I don't think I think that way maybe I did at some point I don't think I think that way anymore but I do think it's quite clear that there are you know profound things and potentiality between people and sometimes like very profound and um I probably would frame it a little bit more in a Buddhist kind of a way than I would have maybe at other points in my life which is just that there's extreme energetic resonance and Karma between people that really can be enlightening so that was the part that jumped out of from what you were saying I don't know if I think if it's like the Invisible Hand is necessarily like arranging everything to optimize yeah that way but but any was I mean you had some other part of that yeah so that was just yeah I just reframing what you were saying but I I guess the idea is like you know because again you're you're just talking about the the people who are involved in it being more or less coherent with each other like very personal take on this too this is how I feel person yeah no for sure and so I guess my my question was like how do you view what we would consider like mistakes or do you not think that that's a thing like is that is is the unfolding of kind mistakes are we talking about you know I don't know like why you know or or do things do you know do things just go Ary or are there behaviors that we engage in that cause them to be that way or is it a combination of both I don't mean to make it dualistic but I guess my question is looking at like how much responsibility do do we take in the things that don't unfold into what we would describe cribe as as good you know or or beneficial for us in terms of relationships right because you're talking about you're having a little bit of Heartache going through this kind of thing we were talking before we started recording about people's actions and the the Ripple effects that it has around them you know what I'm saying and like okay so we look at that from an outside perspective we could be like well this person didn't communicate that well enough this person didn't think about their actions and what that would do to that other person and now those two things aren't working out well and now communication is off and people are separate and so there's you know longing for the other person it doesn't even have to be sexual it could be friends too you know what I'm saying and so I'm looking I'm looking to see what your thoughts are on the the actions of partic of the participants in the story I don't know what to say about it totally like the thing that gets me and we might all have our own Bugaboo things about kind of the thing that probably bugs me the most would be the failure here to realize and develop potential that bothers me a lot okay so if I look at something being a mistake I usually feel the mistake lies there that the potential is kind of there intrinsic in the situation the Alchemy could happen the magic could occur but people don't do it for various reasons you know and um I suppose that's what really bothers me now other things might bother other people but that's my that's my Bugaboo issue okay I don't think you're talking about exactly that you might be talking about something a little different I don't know maybe but we'll just let me just finish the I'll just do the the interviewer question who or what would you consider like potential at its highest expression because if it if it someone doesn't live up not live up to their potential but if the relationship doesn't Blossom to its potential or like you said someone is not up to that like H how how do you view when something is for yourself obviously these are not like you know written anywhere but like for you for yourself how do you view that you know how do you view all this seemed to have Express itself I want understand it but I don't if I'm totally getting you're asking me something but maybe it's not clicking for me so maybe give me your take on it and then I'll see if I can respond to your take well I just I'm just asking you about the the potential part when you said I I will go back and do my thing but I just wanted you to finish your your thought you're like when things don't go to their full potential well I I my experience would be more like I think people uh I think it's like the Carl Jung thing if I go back to him like he was facing question of like am I going to do things to to bring things to some conclusion that I'll have to I'll have to take action and I'll have to go through and make this happen it's like I would also say the same thing about roomie these are the two inspiring people for me and I think I bring room up again a little bit later so I wasn't tring the order we're g to talk about this but I kind of look like the thing that bothers me is Shams of T bre shows up and roomie goes you know it isn't working out timing's wrong Shams and uh you know there's people in the town won't really approve of it that's part that drives me crazy got it but we all have our own deals of what things will bother us fine yeah and then there's no poet roomie that's what bugs me I okay I get I get my but that's personal you know I mean like so I wouldn't say that's going to have to bother everybody but that's the part that bugs me but and that's that's what you mean by potential that's what I mean by potential yeah okay that that's fair enough sh Shams has potential roomy has potential those two things crack right come together into like explosive up chemical Sparks that raise down to the present day because I just listen to poems you know Coleman Bark's doing his poems just the other day yeah get myself in the head space of like okay yeah I'm in I'm still gonna walk this journey of these feelings yeah I that's the part that BS me now again listeners and you know you too Daniel whatever bugs you in this I suppose we all could have the things that bug us but that part for some reason drives me up the wall we've talked about in the past I think anytime there's psychospiritual potential that doesn't get realized that we have talked about no matter what part of life it is that drives me up the [...] wall yeah whether it's this part of life or some other part of life that drives me crazy yeah you know uh so I have like a very high like uh sensitivity meter to like un realize psychos spiritual potential drives me but you know again Different Strokes for different folks people have different feelings of what set them off but this sets me off major which is probably also why I love the stories of like roomie and Shams why I love that story so much because they like I have like I guess we're skipping around a little bit but I want to do a follow-up roomy episode at some point because I got some talk about um but um the fact that he did it you know yeah reallyu went through and like did the thing to to realize what was ultimately a an incredible interpersonal Alchemy between two people obviously Shams did too right might have cost him his head you know he might have gotten killed over it which you you know darker side of that story obviously very dark but you know that's the part that bugs me I so I don't know do you feel the same way or does what's for what you were talking about were you putting emphasis on the different point I was putting the on the emphasis on a different point but it got me to the same place okay which is you know which is what part about this do you view as the downside and the downside for you is not you know so that's I was saying mistakes you know but like really what I'm talking about is like obstacles to fruition and that's that's what I'm asking is that like those things took a left when they maybe could have gone right or straight or in the end whatever can recognize that everybody has their own choice and values of what they think is important and you can judge it's like well that was something that was possible n I'm not into it right and showed up and roomy said you know I'm not into him that much but you can't really judge him on that right right and that's why I was asking you about that's why I was asking you about the potential itself because it it's yeah yeah yeah no no but I understand I understand what you're saying now and hopefully you know people do as well my experience with this was a little bit you know like I haven't had things in my life where it's been like a uni I haven't had like unrequited love that hasn't happened to me exactly oh Lu maybe haven't come to fruition but I haven't had something where like person doesn't have any feelings for me at all so I haven't had that too much you know I mean maybe in the end the person one isn't wasn't into and they dump you but I haven't like had like I'm totally deluded this person doesn't have any feelings for me at all I haven't had that really right you know not too much right you know that just hasn't been part of my story I'm trying to think of an example of that and maybe I can't think of one that's not because I'm like super awesome I think I just have a radar for where there's something there I'm so great everyone's gonna be super into me no right it's more just like okay I think I know the people when there's something there yeah you feel it life you feel it and it usually something I think this is mutual um but anyways you know uh yeah for for my point of view I think that's what bothers me but you know it is true things can be like again to use our example if like sham showed up and then room was super interested into him and then sham like you know I I came to con you to meet you but this isn't really my thing right you can't judge SS right right that's fair enough you yeah yeah interesting okay so go ahead yeah sorry no no no no I was gonna say let let since since we're on the themes of like love and attachment and things like this let's we could just move into the well I did write llama Glenn about this so I thought I would share a little Lama Glenn yeah about the social part yeah because I wrote him and it was interesting because I think what he wrote back would Echo things that you and I have talked about and the thought too so I'm paraphrasing him but he he basically said well you know the I asked him like here's some weird questions I just said that and then he wrote back and said no I don't think these questions are weird at all and then he said um what were what were some of the questions Eric so just a weird I was Bas asking what do you think about this aspect of love and connection and you know I threw that kind of broad okay you know but you know it was like something how should I explain it when you're reaching out to someone you he and I have talked about this before I suppose I was asking him like I find myself feeling these connection I feel I feel like connection with someone that's very profound I was asking about someone in particular and so I just kind of sent it to him out of the blue and I said what do you think this means when you feel something that's profound for some person and I said okay I just titled the like the email I put the heading like weird question you know and then he answered back kind of a big thing and I throw some things in about society and relationship in there too you know my things that concern me and he said you know this wasn't a weird question at all he wrote back which was cool you know yeah and then he said um you know we have he said my own theory on this is it has something to do with Karma on the social front he said we have all had previous lives in different social systems which we may have kind of internalized and that's something I think we've talked about too yeah I think I realized that more in the process of doing the podcast over the time that we've been doing it you know people if you if you've grown up in America lifetime after lifetime after lifetime reincarnated here American things seem very natural to you right and very true and if you haven't then they don't seem that natural to you anymore that's is kind of pretty a profound point you know um and then he said um you know then we carry those impulses forward and then this leads to however you feel about love and relationship sure however you feel about who you feel connection with and I was like yeah I'm in on that you know I wrote him back and he didn't write me back and I'm not sure why maybe he just got Psy you know but I wrote him back and I said you know what what I really want ultimately because he was talking about like different sociocultural settings and even how Buddhist philosophers have talked about this and stuff like that and I said well if I really think about it honestly for myself I want like sometimes what you would call like the deini land effect in Tibet and Buddhist Tantra they have this idea that there's Realms where all people do is work on enlightenment and every single aspect of every experience is just an experience working on enlightenment whether it's love or it's sex or it's you know um uh you know all the other aspects of life that's the kein ram idea every single part is a gesture and a and uh an action that is supposed to be helping all parties go to Enlightenment and I realized like in the end more so than anything I was just writing it back that this is what I want I want to live in a a life where that's the ultimate thing you know all the things go to that place right and I kind of wrote it in the context of like the the pure dinin land ideal or something like that you know uh um uh you know all the ingredients are there and I I feel like all the ingredients are kind of there even in our little Realm of the world to do that but I don't know if it really happens when it should or could and that that I find kind of tragic I suppose but again I also recognize people that their individual choices and they're going to make the decisions that they're going to make based on what seems best to them you know I mean yeah yeah yeah yeah but I know how do you feel about the dinin land idea I mean I this I guess there's some part of me that like very that very deeply resonates with me this idea like well let's go to a place where everything is directed towards Enlightenment no matter what it is you know yeah I mean that's where I want to live that makes sense so I think you know as all as all things there's there's the relative level and the absolute level on the absolute level maybe there is a place that is like that right and on a relative level I think that is the goal of practitioners right that is the goal for us to do is to have all activities mundane and otherwise be expressions or be emanations or expressions of the movement towards Enlightenment and so you know again we've said it numerous times but taking life is one's teacher this is the this is what it's meant by that it's it's not necessarily that life is a being that is teaching you but at the expression of life is the movement towards Enlightenment and all the fodder that goes into the fire is is is part of that so like people who take yoga classes if you have a decent enough teacher they'll say you should take your yoga off the mat well yeah they're saying you know be mindful about how you move your body in space of course be good to yourself be aware of how you're breathing but yoga is Union you know you're you're me you're melding two things together you're melding your mind and your body in one you're being aware of how you're moving together but you're trying to transcend Duality you know at least the the the mind the the mind the localized duality of brain and body is two different things taking that off the m is is again Transcendence of Duality and so in this case you know it's it's Tantra right the the the deeper layer of kantra is not what you do but how you do it so living life as a whatever a janitor or as a professor or you know whatever you're perfecting those you know you're using your your wisdom of Tantra you know it's how you do things and putting that into the means of your daily basis using that using whatever you're doing as now a Perfection of yourself as a Perfection of whatever you want it to be as the as the intention that you have behind it you know what I'm saying so I think on a relative level that makes absolute sense and if I can say I mean I think you do a good job of that already you know what I mean say one does the best one can you too right TR to do the best we can in these things you know traveling in cars we probably listen to a little bit too much uh sports radio which is not exactly uh enlightenment material that off I have to CB Williams which is a big deal I guess so you know whatever whatever it is but we you know we're not perfect beings we're Bears fans so you guys got to give us a break you know like it's just I have a soft spot for these really bad mystery audio books okay okay well you know but so you know but there's some Karma there so llamma give us an out um but so that's that's on one hand um and then on the other hand what else do I think about it is that like when you were describing it I had a very beautiful visual inside my mind while you were talking so I was playing you know like paying attention but then playing this image in my mind naturally and then I heard in my head uh you can't understand Duality from a localized perspective or you can't understand non-duality from a localized perspective so you know which is like okay sorry you know doing too many things at once but it was a very it was a very lovely image that I had in my my head so thank you for sharing that I think like the yes it's beautiful um I think that the writing the Llama Glenn thing because I had kind of sat on it for a while I hadn't asked him these questions um and I wanted to ask him about you know like a particular set experiences I'm going through right sure but also you know just more in general like what do you think of this whole thing you know yeah and is it the value or not value I guess in part I was asking him like should I question this in myself or should I not question this in myself you know are these character traits that are good for me or bad for me right you know so I asked I threw these questions at him you know and then so he wrote back and he wrote back what I thought was a good answer and there was even like when I when I doubled back on the email he sent me I said you know it is interesting like when you pose a question to um you know a spiritual teacher someone you the spiritual teacher and friend he always talks about us being friends know yeah spiritual teacher and friend Dharma friend something does kick in that's kind of interesting like there's almost like a like connection to the whole lineage maybe kicks in in some subtle way or all the way back to you know the source of the lineage in some ways you know something happens because you do it was healing somehow even beyond the words that he said yeah that things started to clarify in me and I I mean that was just interesting and of itself the connection to another person you know yeah and going a little going a little meta here I mean you know if if legitimately you know we don't have such a huge audience you know a couple hundred thousand people is not that big um but you know just trying to put the words to it you know but um if people have legitimate questions about stuff like you're feel free to to send to to Eric or I you know we we really enjoy these kinds of conversations you know I think there's a lot of content and material that's out there in general that that are conversational that are um they're I don't know how to say it contemporary in terms of topics that are up you know in the news or this person said this about that there sports or you know whatever the case is but you know we we do that we do those as they come natural and usually it's me you know he like all right pause pause programming gotta gotta get something out you know but in a in a in a respectful way you know um but we would certainly love to if people had questions or just wanted a different perspective we would definitely you know entertain all of the the thoughts that you had about you know things in particular so please feel free to email us and email is better to send those kinds of questions uh Jin and Tantra gmail.com or you know you could do a a message on Instagram the Jin and Tantra podcast uh so you can feel free to to do that there and we'll definitely um one of us or both of us we'll get back to you email probably in then anyways but yeah if you want to make the initial connection that way right yeah yeah yeah so Ju Just just to kind of say that and that like these are conversations that Eric and I are having live you know so this is not SC you know we know we kind of have an idea what we're going to disc discuss but like at this point we're really off of where we wanted to go with but it's all good we'll get back to there whatever but you know these are live conversations as we're as we're processing the things that we're going to and and providing or sharing the things that were given to us that were valuable like Eric's you know conversation or you know emails back and forth with Lama gun in that like yeah the words have value but I know there was there's somebody who who went with me to Mexico um and you know on Retreat and when she came home uh she said that you know in order kind of like she felt a little off getting back into society for a little while just because you're so energetically open when you're on spiritual Retreat and coming back into like shapes and forms and deadlines and bosses and employees and everything else um she listen to uh the podcast like every day just to kind of put herself back into a place where she could contemplate non- mundane things think about the spiritual aspects of regular life and she just shared this with me uh yesterday actually because I just saw her yesterday and so that makes me really happy that's wonderful yeah yeah so I wanted to share that with with with you because it's probably not just the words you know what I'm saying it's probably not just the words and so you know in the moments we we try and and be meticulous about how we share things and with the the language that we're using but I could say for those who this resonates with you know the intentionality behind what it is that we're doing and saying really does come from a very deep place and this is an open and honest space it's almost like a confessional forgive me Father for I have sined I have sended it again well I think like what I was trying to get to talking about confessional what I was trying to get to with llama Glenn was a description of what like is ultimately kind of like a very deep kind of longing sure the longing to find people who are spiritual soulmates or something like that that's probably the deepest longing I have yeah you know and in the rare eventuality that it happen it's very powerful for me but you know kind of like the Sham story you know of Shams and roomie you don't know where the lightning is going to strike or when strike in the most convenient of places you know and so then it's a question of like do you do you make the thing happen even though it might not be the most convenient of things do you figure out between the people involved the two of you involved like how you make something work even though it might not be you know the most obvious or easy thing certainly Future Ain't Easy for room and chams at all like that [...] yeah but they did that and so like there's some part of me that I think is very important on the one hand I feel like I guess what I was trying to get to with the da was I feel like from that side those possibilities are there I was putting under the framework of like gifts of the da okay potic way to frame it you know not like the da is soon they going like who should I match so and so with not like that in the general flow of what the possibilities are are there are possibilities there between people that could be really beautiful yeah I have the DST attitude back with it then that you know um I'll have it later on in the notes but energy before form don't let the form kill the energy let the energy kind of dominate the thing and then figure out the form off the energy a lot goes reverse yeah yeah and I I I suppose for me if you want to go into the next thing you got something more you want to say about that I want to move it along if you that that's that's an interesting that's an interesting thing I mean that's a really deep question and I think it's one yeah that would open up this a little bit further I don't know I don't know I don't know what what's more or less right I mean I think it depends on it depends on what you have what you want if you have a certain desire for your life right that you feel strongly about you know certain passion that you're pursuing or something like this then things that come up are things that come up you know and they're there they're there for you for a reason or for a season um but back to the earlier part like what is the full expression of that particular thing I don't know but if if you have your own trajectory that you are working on then then taking uh you know what you want to call it like a side Journey if you will you know maybe that's part of it or maybe that's what it's maybe that's all of it and that's what it's supposed to be I don't know you have a thing about energy before form because that's Zen like that's a fundamental Zen concept energy before form like chosen G where I was studing Zen that's like a dictum yeah that's um that's like a Newton's law you know you know it's like the fourth Newton's law or something so how do you feel about that in terms of guiding guiding one's decisions like do you feel like that's a principle for you or do you feel like you don't resonate with that as a principle I do and I don't I mean I do for sure but I mean in that in that sense energy is a kind of ambiguous term because if if you have you know what energy so then where does one's will come into come into play you know what I'm saying versus where does one's desire come into play versus how does the creative um interaction between both of those things come into play because it would seem to me that those two things might not always fit you know especially in in relational terms relationship terms especially when it's juicy it's probably complicated you know so I know maybe maybe it's totally fine we might just think about it differently you know for me I sort of um what what there is in potentiality between people is like um is when it's when it's good meaningful edifying yeah profound yeah transformative significant that's kind of something to be treasured yes I agree that is you know that's the energy in a certain sense you can't entirely will that maybe something that's sort of there between two people with a kind of a spontaneity yeah you know yeah yeah so I'd say that's in that situation it's the energy but the whole thing is probably based on some idea that's DST or Zen you know especially which is that there is a way of moving through situations that is like a capturing the possibilities the essence of what is there part of doing Zen or DSM is to recognize those things and take action upon them people feel that way yeah that's kind of the energy before form idea sure the contrast well maybe we'll talk about we'll see what you think okay I was thinking a lot about Confucianism and dowm right I'm teaching the class for this thing comes up and it's very interesting I've been looking kind of closely I was looking at like the iching and the eing for those who are unfamiliar yeah I was just gonna do it okay okay do it you got okay good eing is like this great old Chinese book where they try to describe patterns of change in the world that could be in nature it could be in your human life it could be in society just patterns of change in terms of like Chinese philosophy of Yin and Yang but it's also a book you can use sort of for advice and almost like an oracle thing you know like they have all like traditional cultures across Asia you know where you can kind of either you there's different methods of doing it but the method I would probably do more would be you sort of throw these coins and the coins tell you what the yin and yang lines are so you medit on your problem should I quit my job the coins and the coins will have a certain pattern of Yin and yangang and then you open the book and then you read through what the advice would be for someone going through that situation it's like the original magic eightball something like that something like that except confucious commented on it right yeah confucious made a comment on the magic eightball I don't know but that might be a super old reference now that I think about it Eric you know because I don't know if most people even know what that is J zers know who that is too Jen zers know what what a Magic eightball is yeah they do okay I hope so if not I guess my daughter had one as a jenier she had okay fine all right it's all good it's all good okay gone around and going like does um Sherry like me and then the thing will pop up yeah like second grade okay as far as the love thing goes yeah yeah yeah it's really on like multiple levels it never really tells you the Chinese ones are interesting it never tells you like uh your boss sucks quit your job that's never confuscious answer it's never that blunt I was kind of joke about it you just says more like um a fox tries to cross a great River it gets his tail wet is that auspicious question mark and you're like what the [...] are they talking about does stuff like that it's like Chinese poetry you know yeah yeah yeah yeah uh and they're they're long and kind of abstract but anyways you know people give commentaries and you can kind of read it for advice about your life and it's it's fun actually on some level um so I was looking at the iching and and but you know it's very confusion and I realized a lot of the stuff that they'll give the answers has to do with like propriety and uh you know it's they're very confusion answers which I have to figure out I have to explain what that kind of means in the context of our conversation so the deal and the deal is from the confusion side I was looking at things like the eing and confusion ISM says something like the solution to things is to set up structure and Order and rules and responsibilities and codes and then tell people that it's virtuous to fill these things to fulfill these things that's the confusion position that's how you put a society together you create these social roles uh and make them in some way that they fit together right and then you make people go into those roles right right and that's how it's supposed to work I mean that's confustion ISM in the nutshell right right form before energy for sure yes and with good intent so I'm not trying to say the intent is good you know the intent is good I think confustion was like our society's [...] we gota clean this [...] up I'm gonna try to come up with a way of a system that will put things into a more orderly State and um make it better but you obviously it's something where we're going to structure the [...] out of this thing and you're going to go here and you're going to go there and the middle sister's going to go over here and the younger sister's going to go over here and the older brother goes over here and everyone does their [...] and if you all do your [...] then this should work and if you don't want to do your [...] that's not virtuous right virtuous as you do the [...] we will shame you yes we will definitely feel bad about it and if you throw the iching you might get a nasty comment from the iching about the fact that you're not keeping your duties and I realized like that's so funny that book is so D is so confusion and maybe when I first started working with it years ago when I was a TCM Chinese medical student yeah school I don't know jumped out at me so strongly that way but now it really does on the other hand I was like contrasting this with like some of the Dallas people like Chang is the really famous one we he's come up in episodes here and there he's really famous for the I was asleep and I dreamt I was a butterfly I woke up I'm a person wait a minute am I a person who dreamed they were a butterfly or am I a butterfly not dreaming they were a person you know he writes these very beautiful poetical kind of things like that that's probably his most famous thing but it really struck me like how dosm and confusion like confusion ISM kind of grew up together D thing is very much like no right don't do that that's really bad and what you have to do is let more of the natural throw flow events let what the da in the universe is providing before you be the guide don't try to force things into these artificialities of form because that's just going to be really really bad you know and relative to what we're talking about now I guess I would say and what what I was trying to say earlier if it wasn't clear that's bad on me but the things that happen between people that are very deep like arumi and the Shams if they're the two characters for episode right is just you know part of this gift and you know has to be allowed to sort of naturally Express itself but you know it's interesting because it's the two sides of Chinese culture and they kind of clash you know and um and you know it's it's very interesting like there's this thing and I guess I'm I've always been pretty sensitized to that point you know being around this for so long but it's crystallizing even more to me like how much they kind of like are like feeding off I'm like knocking my fists together here to show them kind of like clashing with one another but they kind of clash and they kind of like Ricochet off one another into the positions that they take and maybe it's one of those things that each individual person listening can decide for themselves but I'm definitely more on the dsty side of things right no I and I I lean more on that way it's not like I don't see that there's value in the confustion thing but I definitely lean more to the dawa side and I suppose you know if I had a gripe my gripe would be what I was trying to talk about earlier room and Sham show up but uh you know roomie doesn't get to be roomy and Shams doesn't get to be Shams because they're not the proper the proper in the proper positions in terms of the confusion propriety the that they're in like I don't like that thing but anyways that's you know uh I I've just been thinking about that a lot and so you know that's sort of the how it's framing itself for me the way it frames myself for me personally is like if you're lucky enough to find people that you have deep spiritual interconnection with it should be appreciated and valued and don't let the don't let the confusion is get in the way but that's my vibe you know I know how do you feel about that we haven't talked about exactly this issue so I was writing it up you know for my part of the notes and I was like I want to bounce this off to Daniel because I don't really know what you think about it and you know you might feel very different than me yeah so I think you know we we started the conversation talking about or maybe I don't know if we did it on the on air or if we did it before we started and we say on air but I don't even know what that even refers to like we're on we're at an oxygen bar smoking air you know um but before we're going live that there is um inherited constru inherited social tendencies that people have that you know yeah we talking about because you mentioned with right like Lama Glenn's thing yeah yeah exactly that like we have these impulses that are that are in us that are within us that cause us to act in a particular ways and I am definitely like I think the term Obama really kind of messed up the term Community organizer you know because then you just have you have some like weird and nobody knows what that even means like what are what does that even mean I'm a community organizer you know used to run for president and then make a bunch of money afterwards perhaps I mean I'm okay with that you know if that's how if that's if that's the route all right let's do it I'm a little like I'm I'm a lefty person and Obama there's ups and downs to him yeah for sure but he's but when you think of the term Community organizer I mean he's the only one that comes in my mind that's true it's other than that no one else you know you know what I'm say like yeah but as somebody who who hosts a lot of public events and and does Retreats and stuff like that I I consider myself this and and I also have a large number of communities that I am not going to say in charge of that's the wrong thing but you know am a am a facilitator of a co- facilitator of if you will you know uh because it takes people you know and so but this is a very natural thing for me you know what I'm saying and much like you have been expressing this what what what you expressed today was like all of the podcasts last year combined in like a you know 12 minute subject matter subject matter came up again right yeah for sure for sure but that's that that's your thing it's like you know you can't put a square peg into a round hole unless you smash that [...] in there you know and that and you're you don't like the feeling of Smashing it in there like that just doesn't seem to be good you know you can do it but like why a little sore in the morning that's right um on both sides yeah but then you feel like do you feel more of the emphasis on the form side because this has come up before you sometimes have a little bit of a confusion thing I don't want to put words in your mouth you know what I mean or you know impose ideas upon you but I think you talked about the experience of being in Iraq and seeing chaos well having learn about like the chaotic qualities of things which is a kind of a confusion concern yeah I I'll get there in just in in in one no no you're good brother um so but what I'm saying but so as as like a as an organizer of you know of these kind of like communities and events and and keeping them going for a long time I totally recognize the importance of the relationships but you know I value them extremely highly like they they are important to me like when my mom came on the podcast you know some years ago at this point you know one of the lines I remember her saying is that like she's like where I'm from in this culture it's not me it's we and and I definitely even though like I I I cultivate and spend a lot of time cultivating relationships and Community it is about the the collective in this case you know the energy that gets infused comes back around and you have these kind of so so I'm re I'm I'm very conscious of and grateful for the relationships that I have with all the various parties who come into my life who are there for more than just a season you know what I'm saying but really for a reason and and so so to your question that was the answer to that that's that's the answer to that that part of that question so definely like the appreciation of the energy between people that's the energy part for you okay yeah I get it yeah that's definitely definitely it you know and then in terms of like the the confusion or the dos the dosm I would like to think that I'm more of a doist in this way but like I'm also I don't want to say a realist but I am you know and so I'm like I could you could try and be a free flowing thing but on some level I think it's easier to do that when you have some boundaries somewhere uh it makes one like you know makes you feel a little bit safer you know for and for the example that give is like you know being in a a healing ceremony or something like this you know like you know that there's somebody else who is guiding you you know in this way and so you get to you can be relaxed or being in a treatment room or having a good talk with a friend you know what I'm saying or a therapist if you can you know afford that thing the rest of us broke folk got friends you know what I'm saying so but you know someone who's holding space for you you feel at least my my interpretation I'm being on both sides uh you feel like you can express yourself and that it's going to be held properly you're not going to be judged you know and what you say you can kind of you know what I'm saying and so there's this that and that but that in a nutshell is that's the confusion ISM part that's the it provides the boundaries for people to be free within and I realize there's still a boundary there but like to me this is how I how I experience it and on for me it's interesting for me because like if I think of myself as a clinician I don't feel like if I'm in clinical space with someone I don't feel that to be like a confusion space I don't feel it if someone's like opening up their heart and opening up their mind and sharing something that doesn't feel like a confusion space to me I'm not saying that that that's a wrong way to think about it we just giving my own subjective feeling of it that doesn't feel confusion to me it feels more I guess it feels more Dost sure almost like if we go to our favorite psychologists Carl Young Carl Rogers it feels Carl rogersy to me so like that's the space that creates openness sure there's a container that the room is in or something that um that's part of the privacy of the vent or something to create that but that doesn't seem maybe maybe I just think about this differently and we all can yeah yeah yeah that doesn't feel like the confusion thing to me so but you know different structs with different F yeah I mean for me that it's it's the it's the shape of the room it's the it's the unspoken or maybe even spoken rules of of Engagement that we have with our patients or our our friends that they can open up to be able to do that because you are there you know what I'm saying because you're willing to listen because you're willing to listen in a non-judgment so all these are like I'm sorry then I'm cutting off yeah so all these are like unspoken rules of a good practitioner or of a good clinician or of a good friend you know or of a good family member of a good partner in a relationship you know what I'm saying that you can do the heart opening aspect you can do the mind opening aspect and that it will be it will be held and reflected in a compassionate kind of a way but without someone else there you're talking to yourself you know what I'm saying like you're you know what I mean and so for me it's I view it as a safe kind of like a safe space in a in a way that like you can work within but it's not confi it's not confining it's just that like the nervous system and I'll do I'll be a little bit physiological the nervous system can release because there is not a threat you know what I'm saying you're providing a non-threatening space for someone to like really let go and relax and be held in it's it's a it's a place of um the embodiment of having faith maybe the so interesting about that to me this episode went all kinds of weird ways that expected that's how you know that's how you know there's some things that are off in life you know what I mean well the thing that like strikes me about all of that is when I think about the confusion side of things I think of that is intrinsically more judgmental because in the confusion world there's nothing to ask about it's very clear how you have to be so you don't even have to ask you know there's no conversation to have that's to my mind the confusion problem there you know you got to go talk with your friend let me talk through things there's nothing to talk about what are you supposed to do those are your duties and responsibilities this is already answered like you don't have to go ask your Catholic priest what you're supposed to do about about things you pretty much already know right right you want to hear him say it again you can hear it again but it's pretty clear or you know the same with the confusion ISM thing you know it's a lot and that you probably will be made to feel guilty sure if you're not like if you're not on plan if you're not on program you're gonna feel guilty we're gonna make you feel shame and guilt because you're not with the program you know what I mean yeah you're not on script right yeah so that's so maybe that's again different ways that we think about this but talking I was like oh that's what I would hear I would hear yeah the confusion person is GNA be like no no I am gonna judge you right now you're wrong this is not going to be a safe space this is gonna be a space where I'm gonna tell you what you're supposed to do yeah and that's what confucious said yeah if you're not doing that you're wrong yeah that's our safe space congratulations yeah congratulations Shake of hands come back later if you have any more problems or questions we'll make sure that Sol that for you and you walk all way with a a big Heap and load of Shame and guilt along the way yeah it is yeah you know I mean yeah I'm wondering I mean I'm wondering do you know I don't I I I don't consciously try to shame or guilt for sure I don't but on the Daniel I don't think you do at all no I don't think I do but I but I can say I definitely try and Empower people you know and and some of that empowerment for me comes through responsibility you know so like for example somebody comes in and they have or a friend they have an issue you know and like you and I we're we're herbalists we're acupuncturists we'll use cupping or whatever TW not whatever tool we have but if somebody is being hampered by the alcohol they drink on a regular basis the the the negative behavior with a certain person in their life that is you know causing them stress or the the food that they're taking in or too much exercise not enough exercise what the job all the things that we talk about on this on this show I can only move the needle so much regardless of how amazing I may or may not be you know herbs can only do so much because in the TR you know really in the tradition those interventions are further down on the rung it's like meditation chiong Tai Chi lifestyle spending time outside this is this is what makes the change first we if we if by the time I have to get involved now I got to stick sharp objects into you to like you know get the stuff really moving um and so there is an aspect not necessarily of like shame or guilt or judgment on my part but I can definitely feel that like I want to empower people through showing them behaviors that they may be exhibiting that from a practice practitioner standpoint I could say I don't think that's healthy for you you know or I don't know if if that particular thing that you really love is that good for you know you can't have that much cheese it's not good for you know what I'm saying like your nose is running all the time it's not that great for you know you know what I mean I that sucks but like that is what it is but I could totally see why I'm saying this is that like I could also totally see how someone might view that as judgmental or something else this way and so even though I'm on the doist side of things and the confusion ISM it's not necessarily the philosophy that matters to me it's the fact that like there are there is a place where we're in right now that is kind of like a Sacred Space of expression and of connection and then once we leave that it's it's not the same as it was when we were here the the implementation of that confusion the principles stopped there it is no long I don't use any um you shoulds you know just this would be helpful for and I say that because I have a desire to help and I imagine that many people do it's probably the the the clinician in me but it could also be part of the male species you know we want to fix things you know I think that's you know what I'm saying so I just I wanted want to fix things too I'm sure they're probably gonna do it a better job than I am um well I mean grew up with my mom she wanted to fix a bunch of [...] whether it was successful or not okay there we go so I just but I wanted I'm glad that we did this because I feel like there are lots of people who would like who see things wrong and would like to fix them and to feel that they can do that but also to be mindful in the way of how they approach it because you can totally come off as Shamy and blamy even if you don't necessarily mean to be you know what's interesting for me in that is I've had a couple of conversations you know like today even about like Carl Rogers he's come up a couple of times he came up in a class I was teaching so this is one of the great psychologists of the 20th century and yeah and one of our people that we go to periodically when he's relevant and so he has those three principles of how you interact with people right yeah and so what's interesting to me is I see him being more doist for sure you know he did spend time in China we had requests at one point to do a little bit more bio episodes on some of the psych people you know I think and so you know we'll try to get back to that at some point you know yeah but you know he did go to China and came back a different person you know he changed his mind in China he was gonna go do first Ministry and you know he was like no I'm going to do something different and all he became I think is this great psychologist not just me he's recognized great psychologist but one that I particularly love and so he says you know the thing that works in the encounter which what is what I hear and what you're describing to me is first there's a space of like non- judgments and acceptance of the person sometimes he use this terminology unconditional positive regard that's what he says but you know it's kind of like an Acceptance in a non-judgmental way I'm not going to judge you you know no and I think you're describing a space that's very non-judgmental so I would say roarian then right M and then one that's empathetic and understanding you know not just you know like not just sympathy I'm G to feel bad for you but like no I'm gonna really try to understand you I'm gonna try to understand your perspective and do it from a empathetic point of view looking at from sort of your side and I think you're describing that too which to me feels more zener doist to me we have our own definitions on these things thought about these things then the last one he brings up he uses the word congruence which what what he really means is like honesty and authenticity right I think that's what I hear in the just real Qui sorry that that's what I hear in the end of it I hear like listen I've heard you out yeah you have a problem that you're smoking too much weed so let's just be honest about that part know and um I'm coming at this from a place not that I'm judging you and I'm not coming from a place where I'm not being understanding of even why you're doing that I do understand but let's be honest about this and so I see that all still fitting under that same rubic so again different definitions for different people but I feel kind of a Dost Zen space I yeah but I mean that's a that's a how it resonates sure it's how it feels you know like I guess I have some feeling about that sure like that feels open to me what you were describing that didn't feel closed or rigid to me that felt very open and maybe that's because I know you too and I know you yeah nonjudgmental person but it's shs you know but we're always intera you know and and I mean I think it's this is it has value for people because we're always interacting we're constantly interacting I mean that's all we do all day long is interact with people for the most part I mean if you have a technical job where you're putting numbers in or whatever but you got to present those numbers to somebody at some point you know you have a family or friends hopefully God willing right um but there's that inherently in that that means that you're exchanging you're exchanging words you're exchanging energies you're exchanging thoughts ideas emotions other kind of stuff and how do you do how do you do that how do you present it you know I know we're kind of coming to the the the ending of our our time tonight but in the beginning we talked about the tantric view of things right it's not what you do but how you do it and so in this kind of like discussion on you know between practitioners essentially we're also just people having interactions and yes we have some education and some skill set and some experience dealing with people but it's still fresh every time you know everybody presents new energies there's new influences and whatever and um to be aware of in which how we interact with people and the places that we're coming from I think is infinitely valuable because that that influences the way in which the world is connected the network you know that that pulls people together so it's right now it's you and me but when we finish this show it's me and my partner and you and your son and you and your partner and then you know we get a phone call from a friend and then it's you and your daughter you and your buddy and me and a per you know me and a friend and you me and a client and you and some students and you know like it's then they have their like it goes it ripples constantly you know and I just like I am enjoying having this conversation about that because I think it makes the quality of the connection that we have with people better higher more deep that's kind of like the Rippling effect of interconnectivity from some Buddhist point of view right it creates interactivity in a very practical way yes not like in a metaphysical that's also true things can be mystically entangled in the universe that's cool this is much more of like a practical kind of like okay this is going to interconnect um so I mean it's uh I guess you know when you talk about structure I'm doubling back a little bit but we talk about structure okay you can have some structure like we both like music you need a little structure to have the music go yeah right there's no structure at all that's not quite right but the energy has to be the thing that leads yeah maybe it's because I did so much Zen at the beginning there might be like a cultivation of a feeling I haven't thought about this before I'm just like you know talking about it but you know the whole idea that it cultivates a certain feeling of what feels natural which is a kind of one of your favorite words we were talking about earlier spontaneous natural uh unforced you know yes and so the my the thing that irks me about the confusion side though I see a value in it I'm not saying there's no value in that sure yeah the trouble is if you if you do the form and it kills the energy right that's no buo a stagnation and adults treat the liver treat the liver this is the organ that tries to keep the chi moving in adults if you're not a Chinese medical person yeah someone says we need to do points on your liver Channel they're basically saying you're frustrated pissed off and stagnant acupuncturist like we need to do some liver points on you that's what they mean yeah yeah so I mean I think that's the that's the feeling and you know I I going back like to do like these Zen things it was interesting I'm glad I did those practices early because they had that weird intuitive kind of experiential aspect to them that was more like okay develop a feeling what it feels like to to flow through whether it's a physical thing like you were talking about earlier like a yogi who can feel like how their body flows and the connection of their body and their mind and they feel that fluidity there right or like you know how you move through your life or how you move through treating a patient or you know we're teaching something in some setting how does that feel spontaneous and natural and like engaging yeah that's kind of Zen you know um you know there's the old book flow you know the guy went around he started trying to ask people about who were very good at things like he did he talked to Michael Jordan about playing basketball you know and Michael Jordan was like you know I don't know I go into a space I go into a certain Zone and I flow you know and you know Zen tries to to get that feeling of what it feels like to flow because it probably things will because if then if you're DST or you're Zen you say well probably [...] will turn out better if I let the things flow if I try to force it into some structure that might look good from a certain vantage point you know uh I look at the big picture I put everybody in their boxes that looks better if I want to order things that way but like for the individual parties involved you know this is more of a question of like can we get things just to flow in the way that like has that spontaneous natural quality to it which is probably more enlightening and enlivening in the end anyways yeah before we totally bounce because say one last thing because we're not gonna go back to this subject Mar we're gonna be done with it what was also was interesting was you know there's those books by is it Christopher Ryan sex at dawn so yeah yeah yeah sex at dawn and civilized to death and you know I think about his stuff with these things too especially in the past week when I was thinking about the dosm and Confucianism stuff where this is must be like a primordial problem you know the way he presents it in sex at dawn things didn't used to be this structured you know it was much more spontaneous styles of living for people when was th when was this well like before agriculture oh okay fine agriculture is the agriculture is the uh yeah the thorn in the in the story in his story maybe that's worthwhile doing a whole episode on at some point well that for that we should you know we could do we should do that with an anthropologist and we have a couple on call because it's funny you know we were supposed to have Mary K on tonight um you know she's a little under the weather but hopefully we'll have her on soon she actually brought that up just when I spoke to her the other day on the phone was AG the implementation on agriculture changed the the the shape of how we interact with each other and how it it created changes that were never there before it's interesting because they talk about like uh in his book he talks about people trying to convince those who live like in the Amazonian jungle to like do stuff and they're like what are you talking about why would I want to like get up at the same time every day and work I could just go and eat that stuff off the tree and then I enjoy myself I play my music uh I make love I go to sleep I take a nap like what the [...] are you talking about they're like trying to convince them like no you need a schedule you need this and that and they're like are you high like what are you talking about I don't need that know but anyway that's his position in the book whether that's true anthropologically or not I don't know I don't know okay but like you could hear it in the DST and the confucious they're arguing about this point you know like the tension that I've always recognized it everyone who studies Chinese culture recognizes this but like I something kicked clicked in me probably like reading the iching again after some years and then like looking back at Chang like wow they're really are having this fight that almost like feels like there was some point in history where people decided we're going to make things really structured and another group of people are like stop it and they're fighting about it you know and these events would have happened you know when these authors were writing what like you know 3,000 years ago or something like that this point or whatever the number is exactly if I'm getting that wrong I'm wrong but somewhere around that time probably right and um and you know there's a there's a conflict happening we're going to structure everything to make the society fit a certain way no this has to be allowed to flow in a more natural way you're [...] everything up and they fight over this point it's interesting any I just want to throw it out there because we probably won't back to this specific subject but just maybe to get it out there for you to think about and and uh do I know you do already and maybe people who were listening who haven't maybe thought about these kinds of things you know it's interesting to think about yeah yeah I think the only thing from um from a meditative from a meditative point you do use structure in order to rein in your you know what my I like what how Andre calls it your rays of attention you know the the various laser beams that your mind is is operating within sending out sending out thoughts to this thoughts to that so on and so forth and that you kind of like you rein them in and then eventually they come in they come much tighter and much more powerful they become much more bright so as opposed to like a thousand flashlights spread out all over the sky you have like a spotlight you know and then the goal would be have that Spotlight spin around you know and use this sort of penetrating effect to go back but you do have to have a method in order to be able to re in that attention for most things there's obviously some meditative forms that are just completely open and totally unattached and people attain ways this way but most practices that I'm aware of have some form of structure some form of form you know based on Karma or whatever you're attracted to or who knows the difference between those two things anyways um that that bring you to a sense of Freedom actually where you're formless you know so it's it's of it right the irony of it yeah exactly that's the interesting thing in like the feeling of it again if I go back to the feeling of it because I like those things too and I think we both can have that recognition of worm can be good for the expression of energy yes yeah so if you're G to do musical things we both love music playing music creating music the form gives the chance for the the energy to come through right yes so I suppose the Zen or dos critique is don't put the form before the energy though right because that will that will be stultifying but if the form becomes a tool that allows you to express the energy well then that's okay you know and I think we agree I mean yes that's a feeling thing in a way too because you know when you get in the zone in the structured meditation this episode's so [...] funny this is wild bro when we get into you know like a like a lot of the Tibetan meditations are pretty structured yes very structured but true that like they begin to develop a certain kind of flow yeah that has that quality to it and you realize okay this this is uh this is energy expressing itself and the form is is there to help the energy kind of go along so now this and this is what I meant being opposed from the outside you know an overly kind of like oppressive kind of a thing and this is what I meant by in the treatment room or having a conversation is holding space yeah that the that the form allows the energy to express in that way you know funny thing about that to me was that that immediately sounded Carl Rogers sure sure I think is very DST but you because it has that balance to it or something it's trying or not balance it has a proper relationship between energy and form yeah I mean you can't be a an improv you can't be an improvisational musician without knowing music without having some for some something to play Within you know to play around with you have to have some structure Michael Jordan can't be in free flow unless he understands how to dribble how to shoot you know so there's some so it's just it's it's a balance you know as always plays in the offense too right in order to know where Scotty Pippin gonna be if you want to go old school bull stuff right yeah's gonna be on the wing and I could toss him and he'll try to hit that three from the top of the key or something like that you know what I mean that's right behind that top of the key behind the you know the three-point line towards the top of the key anyways that's some basketball [...] um but you know when you yeah you know again it's this it's it's that interesting dowas zeni thing like yeah you use the form only exists to help the energy Express that's sort of the principle right energy before form no form but the the the form has to follow the energy I still that speaks to me and yeah I hadn't thought about it in that experiential way but it is true you know that it developed a kind of a feeling and then maybe I took that feeling into some of the Tibetan meditations or some of the other things because I knew what it felt like to go samade to go that feeling and then those Tibetan meditations felt different you know even structured it was like could feel the flow within this because I've been studying flow in the Zen world yeah thought about this right yeah you know for for people who don't have uh a meditation practice this is why it takes such a long time to develop it is because you do have to work through some structure to get wherever quote unquote there is you know what I'm saying like it's the pathway that's the step by step by step way an open focused medit and I've been doing this with people a little bit more over the last probably two months is guiding somebody to get to make their focus I I'll just share it like what I do is I'll have somebody I'll have them put themselves in a white room and then I'll have them see a shape on a wall and then I make that shape as small as possible until they can barely make it out and I just say keep your focus on that shape and usually I'll say a square triangle or you know PL just something there keep staring staring staring staring and after some time not that long cuz I know people's attention is hard to do this I'll say feel your attention tightening feel the aperture of your mind squeezing down on this form okay instantly you're on the top of a mountain and it's blue skies all around you feel 360 Degrees relax relax relax open open your mind open see as much as you can and then understand there's more behind you that you can't see but feel that you know bring your your feeling in your together and people really can they they get super relaxed when that happens and and I feel like it's because they've they've gone through the pinhole you know they they've concentrated deeply and now they have that kind of uh release it's if we can go back a year and a half or so it's a it's a baby Shen gasm you know we got tension that builds up and then it's oh yes kind of like releases itself into the big blue sky right that's right yeah like a sperm wave into the big blue sky that's right that's right what interesting about that funny episode but what's interesting about that is a very creative way to do it obviously so it's it's beautiful right but also the idea that uh it is very Zen you concentrate concentrate concentrate you know and eventually they say it's something will pop and then you'll feel the hugeness of this other part of who you are so it's it's an irony of like you focus on the very very focused thing and then it'll go pop and all of a sudden this other part of you that again is this expansive big as the sky feeling you know that's interesting yeah well sometimes Eric we do a podcast and and and sometimes for our listeners Eric and I are just talking you know and know what the [...] this is but we're just you know we're just doing our thing this is great yeah yeah um yeah Daniel you were joking beforehand that Daniel loves spontaneity and he has totally totally you call yourself a spontaneity order or something like that was spontaneity hoarder for sure could be more tickled if like this [...] had nothing to do with any script at all this is my favorite episode ever yeah yeah yeah yeah um but I mean I think for people learning do the meditation thing okay you work with your mind I think part of what you're talking about there is people's minds are so anxious yeah so scattered that you have to do that yeah right and so otherwise you can't you can't know yourself you have to focus more to know yourself a I agree all of this distraction of course you can talk about like the dirty water and you let the the dirt settle and you can see the clarity right I me that's the metaphor but you know you really get practical with people like hold on your mind's all over the place you're thinking this thing you're thinking that thing you're anxious about this one you're thinking about this political event you know whatever no focus on this triangle on this wall right and let's get that part of your mind or your spirit to focus and then you'll get more clarity and then if you all of a sudden flip the switch okay now we're occupying space the space like formless meditation right now you'll feel the hugeness of this other part of who you are right the part that's Transcendent of this this time and local because that's what that's gonna kick in right yes y but like you know maybe the energy and form thing maybe this is my closer I know you have a closer after this but maybe the energy and form thing is it's still based on a Feeling somehow right there's a feeling of like the energetic quality of things and the for service and and maybe that's what bums people out sometimes about the meditation thing is they feel like it's too tight yeah yeah yeah theity I feel too tight I have to concentrate on this thing really perfect and that thing really perfect and it has to be all maybe there's a perfectionism that some people might feel you know I didn't do it good enough or I have to really force myself to concentrate in this certain way but you know when you do this for a while you realize no you got to work with your mind and let it flow a little bit you can't force it it doesn't want to be forced yeah the old zen pictures about the kid trying to like lead the Bull along you know like put the the little ner on the bow you try to pull on the bull the bull will just like rip its horns back you know it's not gonna let you do that correct along with the bull you know the energy and the mind have to flow together in that way yeah I wonder if maybe that's what BMS people out it feels oppressive then that is conf too confusion they're right that is too confusing and I also think people spend you know they they they watch a TV screen or their phones it's a box they drive a car it's a box you sit in a house it's a box you work at a cubicle or wherever you know in an office that's a box you're you know your time is like you got to do this this this at this spe specific time and you got to be here and you have responsibilities and now you got to sit here and follow this prompt that's difficult yeah you know it's it just you're you're adding more frustration to the pot and the pot is already overflowing with frustration so um it's it's a it's a it's a big ask yeah it's an interesting problem you know it's interesting problem and then you got to do it right and it has to be perfect and I have to like force my mind to do this thing all those things it's a little sidebar point but G giche it wasn't like his main point obviously he wanted people to concentrate but I remember him saying at one point like when Americans try to do these Tibetan meditations where you're visualizing all the different colors and the mandas whatever they get so like they get so into every single little detail yeah that it gets painful for them you know like I to do every little tiny little thing perfect and he said like sometimes for Tibetans you just see like a big big red blob right right it's okay sometimes you know the clarify as it goes along you don't have to force the mind so and try to torture it or something right yeah yeah yeah because otherwise it'll feel bad and then you obviously then the energy inform is all wrong and you want one to do this stuff correct right now you're not yeah now you're not even in the game Joy there's no joy yeah you you got to be in the game if you want to play yeah yeah all right my brother well well uh thanks I mean we're this is has nothing to do with like anything that would happen nope how the relationships we'll get to Theo next time but yeah this was good yeah no I no I enjoyed this for sure this is uh it's fun it's fun well Eric is always thank you for for for being on the on the on the journey with me my friend um and to our audience you know whoever is with us as they say at the end of most longer videos uh congratulations on having uh the attention span of a top five percentile because most people don't have that kind of ability to stick with something to the end but uh I I think actually we we gave some really good gems at the end for those of you who are still with us thank you for listening uh we do appreciate it we we appreciate the love and the feedback you know make sure like subscribe hit the uh the Bell icon if you're on the YouTube get get notifications hooked up it doesn't cost you anything it helps out in the algorithm for sure um and it also helps out for you to share our work if you find it useful or even if you don't find it useful you want to spam someone's inbox with uh things that will annoy them you know spam with us man that's cool we could be spam you know in one part of the country spam is disliked highly and yet in other parts of the country it's like a delicatessen or delicacy delicacy whatever it could it could be a Spam delicate essent I don't know you know go right into it yeah every sandwich is a spam sandwich so you know this like doesn't have [...] to do with anything but I remember going to this Vietnamese restaurant and the woman was so like proud to show us the food people were there so we ordered some noodle dish and all it was was noodles with like a can of spam on the top oh put it down like she just like was presenting like uh you know Queen Elizabeth like with the most you know refined Delicacies like what the [...] is this that's my last spam experience but literally was still in the shape of the can just like well noodles and she went like here you go you know like you're like okay sometimes you get lucky sometimes you get lucky um but yeah but that wasn't one of those times yeah that that is no that is not anyways uh thank you everybody for for tuning in um for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace