[Music] hey fell te those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist as you will already have heard in the intro we are being joined today by the lovely thoughtful and just allaround wonderful fedra Shantel and we're going to talk about many things but especially things involving relationships sexuality polyamory life and just I think like her experiences being a woman and kind of finding out how she feels about things and who she is and exploring uh all of that all of that world discovery of a person of who they are so uh I guess I'll throw the first question over to you Daniel because you and fed know each other so well and I'll be like a SP fly on the wall but like totally yeah an active an active fly Eric I'll be a buzzy fly a buz Eric you're the unicorn in this in this Trifecta new roles see that's I'm already learning more openness see look at you you're just growing all the time um yeah so [...] thanks thanks for coming on um so far you know I've known fager for I don't know many many years 13 14 years probably something you know it's been a long it's been a long time you know but um you know since we started doing those love episodes last year the relationship relationship episodes last year feder and I started having more discussions about that as she was you know interested in what we were talking about and um and in going through her own process her own Journey we started having these kind of deeper discussions different discussions around that time and so you know we had we had been talking about how we wanted to have people on who sort of living that lifestyle practice those kinds of things and um after some time I was like well feder you should come on and uh and and tell us a little bit about uh you know about some of your adventures and some of your you know your growth process so um you know given that as as as the lead in Fay which is certainly not much of a lead in per se um but I kind of wanted to start you know so tell me a little bit about like where you are and you're in your journey now and then we'll we'll kind of pick it apart and see how you got here normally we kind of start the other way and go you know what what was influenced you but I want to give people the audience a chance to kind of get to know who you are now a little bit um and then we can kind of you know work forwards and backwards and time you know a little bit like a flashback episode or something like that yeah that's training happen and we'll go back right yeah that's awesome that's those are the movies that I love um so thank you guys for having me on and uh yeah so I guess right now uh where I'm at um I am a single female I was married for a while and um with a a partner and heter of sexual marriage and now I have basically kind of embraced who I am as a woman and my sexuality so I am in the what they call lifestyle so uh the lifestyle would be um open like swingers openness open marriages uh and in in one aspect polyamory so um I'm kind of just living my life trying to really understand where I fit in with all that and I am having fun for the most part and also with this fun comes a lot of hm okay did that actually serve me and am I happy and is this what I want is this you know where I want is this aligning with my values so yeah um but enjoying the process all the ways the language thing is really interesting because if you hear someone say the lifestyle then you know that that means something right yeah people have never heard this kind of thing before there's a certain jargon there's a certain kind of terminology that people know so if someone says the lifestyle you know that they're in the know of what that means right yeah exactly exactly and it's yeah it's considered a lot of and there's you say that because it all encompasses so many different things but we all know it's the lifestyle of um how do they put it um it's non- monogamy I would say um ethic ethical non- monogamy yeah and um so yeah lots of terminology with it lots of rules um so yeah it's not just the free-for-all there's a lot of uh emotions and people and understanding involves I guess that means like different things to different people because for some people that might be like an open relationship yeah other people it might be more like like a swinger kind of community thing where there's more of a community element to it too and then other part is more like the poly part where it's more like okay longer term relationships where there's more of the that emotional intellectual you know more longer term commitment thing I guess you know we were talking a little bit off mic and that's what you're sort of figuring out for yourself now kind of right yeah yeah absolutely and it all comes with its I feel pluses and not pluses uh so yeah I would say that I started off as um a what they would call a unicorn which is a single female that uh dates couples um and I found that for me that has really been beneficial to my need for the masculine and a feminine in a relationship uh and actually relating to my masculine and feminine on an equal basis and then because it's more in The Swinging Community uh where is more like you're saying it's social but it's very casual so in The Swinging Community it's not not really you make friends and these friends are great they understand your lifestyle they understand where you're coming from but it's more so you know we do a we have a party or we're just going to like hang out and something may or may not happen uh and that's that's been um that's been where I've I've been at however I realized in this journey over the last year that that might not be enough for me um because I do seek a little bit more connection as far as just being able to have a a a better relationship with each partner and more communication and with these types of instances you've got you know you've got couples that have their regular lives you know they've got families they've got you know just everyday stuff that they're dealing with and they're not necessarily looking for a new best friend so totally accept it understand it uh but I don't know if that's exactly what I want moving forward so probably just for the uh with the lingo of the whole thing this unicorn is a special one because it's a magical creature that no one can find the magical creature who wants to be in that situation where I I'm open being to being with both people in the couple you know woman be right yeah there's a name there's a name for the man and I can't remember what it's called but there are men that are that are the same is magically hard to find reason that's the reason that's this name is there you like unicorn where does that come from it's just the idea that you know it's only you know uh certain people who will feel like that's what they would be looking for or something right really really quickly really quickly so fate you're you know talking about like your needs that are that you're learning as you're kind of going through this process but you know I I foreshadowed ear we would do a little bit of flashback so let's let's take a moment and and do a little flashback here because you know for many reasons I find this fascinating and interesting how did you like when did when did this desire begin like when when did it begin for you and then how did that Journey kind of unfold as time has gone on to kind of get you to this place okay I feel that I became interested in this probably during my teenage years okay I think from early on uh when my mom listens to this and she's going to remember this from very young I would say eight or nine years old I became very interested in the men and women's body and I loved to see nakedness right I became very interested in there's a show called the red shoe Diaries and I would watch it because you know it was very sexy and um so I would sneak and watch that so my my um interest for that was very young and then that as I got older um you know I dabbled in being with multiple people in high school and I knew at the age of 13 I was bisexual and um so that I think as the years the years went on uh I mostly I pretty much only dated men and um so I don't think that ever went away I think that I knew I wanted that I had the capacity to give my time in love uh to more than one person until I met quote unquote the one and got myself hitched that was not what you expected the end of that sentence to be that was a good setup yeah so there's that before we get through it I don't know what y all think it's you know we try to like Bop back and forth a little bit with these things so I think like childhood sexuality we haven't talked about that too much that kids have sexual feelings yeah right and I don't think it's always that we are comfortable talking about that in our culture but they do yeah like remember like being sick with like a little flu or something when I was a kid maybe I was like five or six or something and I got to stay up late and there was like a Marilyn Monroe movie playing on the TV that my grandpa was watching and I was like it was like a religious experience I'm just like wow and remember thinking like I'm G have to come up with some excuse to stay up every single night with my grandpa to sit and watch this you know and it wasn't naked this and that but it was just like you know that kind of like sexual feeling that was coming through and I was like wow you know and I I look you look back on it like well of course I had those feelings right you know I used to I used to steal the uh for those who are a little bit older they there used to be a store called Sears and maybe they still exist I don't know but many of them closed down right no but they used to before the internet they only had cataloges and you get the Sears catalog and you could see you know you could see what they had you know where this is going fedra I used I used to steal the catalog go under my bed into the BR into the like l bra on underwear section and like lick the page and I'm like five maybe four you know like like just as as any time I saw that catalog I stole it immediately I was like I gotta run I gotta run you know it's amazing I would steal them too I wouldn't lick them but I would definitely be like why don't any of these women have nipples in their lace bra it's so weird I tried I tried to look you couldn't see he's scratching the page off he not working draw in yeah I agree with you yeah there's like the kind of it's you know like I guess there's so many goofy things in someone like Freud he really goofy but like Daddy did talk about you know so at least like hey kids have these feelings yeah yeah you know and at least we could acknowledge that um and then I guess you know even realizing that you were I I worked at some point in my life with a lot of gay male patients I was working on a Ryan White Grant and I was treating HIV and AIDS okay so you know all kind of patients but you know that was a subass of patients for sure right yeah I have this conversation about when people started to realize that their sexuality was different and you know obviously for you you were saying Oh by 13 this is getting pretty clear you know how did it feel to you though did you feel it like you feel okay with it was it something like because we were talking a little bit off mic before we started talking about feelings like shame and things like that yes yeah uh so when I was I remember this clearly my sister and I it was summer vacation we were watching either Ricky lake or Montel Williams and uh they were talking about um you know because back then when you came on on a talk show it was like ah oh my gosh and I turned to my sister who was nine or 10 at the time and I might have even been younger and I looked at her and I said would you still love me if I told you I was bisexual and she's like of course and I was like okay great I was like cool because I think I am and then I told my mom that you know we because I was very open with her about my experiences and I said Mom you know I I think that I'm bisexual and she's like okay cool and I so I really had no shame when it came as a young person being able to have because and maybe my mom just thought it was like a a thing like a or something yeah yeah because i' always I was always dating dating boys so I I think that she wasn't really and honestly back then it's like how do you really find or how do you go about doing that and uh or seeking out you know dating or girls and I think around our time because I think I think it's around the same age so around that time it was a getting a little bit more understood you had the groups and everyone kind of knew who the the different people were and because I hung out with so many different groups um it didn't really matter and I really just wasn't super attracted to any of the girls in my school anyways so um so it was not hard to subside any feelings um but yeah but then as I got older I think it wasn't that I was shameful of of liking women it was more my idea of what I wanted relationships to be and and what Society thought my relationships to be and so my shame and guilt came more with uh as I met someone that I you know love dearly uh not being able to be honest with how I wanted the relationship to be it is like a deep challenge you know if you're a bisexual person and there's not a lot of like room in the culture of what you're supposed to do with that once you want to have a more longer term relationship ship or ultimately like a marriage just just isn't the space within that I wonder about that all the time yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe before we do the marriage thing I just curious for you all too because I'm probably a little bit more like the Gen XE person in this group and I would say you know for me at least where I grew up and I grew up in a probably pretty conservative part of the Chicago land area all things being equal kind of like blue collar you know workingclass kind of thing but more conservative and there was just a lot of I mean I hate to use the phrase but it's [...] shaming right it was really you know now I look at my daughter's 20 and um you know it's a lot better now I want I to say it's perfect but for like the Gen Z kids it's better for sure you know she would sometimes tell anecdotes like the be we' let the people have i' let people have parties in the house and people would have some pretty my daughter would have some pretty wild parties here and You' hear the anot anecdotes afterwards she'd be like oh man that would that girl who was sleeping with that guy in that party my growing up they would be a big deal and there'd be a whole bunch of crap dumped on that person so I how was it for you all you fedra and then I don't know like just Jen Z looks different to me but like for people were in that Millennial range how did y'all how was that for yall how was it for you fedra specifically that's actually really funny because I don't even know how this happened because very similar was at a party and I we had so where I went to high school we had the you know that the your rival school and I apparently got so much you know my name was going around that school as being whatever and um I was like well you know what they're talking about me so there must you know whatever and I didn't and then it happened at another school because somebody that I had well didn't do anything with had told a bunch of people who was like a close friend of mine told a bunch of people at his school that we did something and I'm like well you know what I mean as as long as he's telling him I'm good I like what am I going to do about it because it's not even true but I didn't put much mind into it and uh yeah everyone knew that I liked boys and everyone knew that I was way ahead of my time on what I wanted to do what I was curious in and I was a go-getter you know I think I made I would be like the metour of my high school because I really pushed boys into to different like not not to I wasn't forcing anyone to do anything I wasn't that but I definitely was like let's try this and they were like I'm not comfortable and so you know and that's why I think I started dating older people because I was able to experience what I wanted to experience at that time so you like wanted to explore in a way that even these teenage boys weren't totally comfortable with yet because it was just too mature and kind of like over their level yeah and I mean I guess starting at 9 years old being interested in and talking to my mom and having a couple experiences that weren't fun and you know I mean you don't know what you're doing and so then all of a sudden I I would read and do research and talk to my mom and you know it was um I think a very natural like progression sometimes wonder you know when there's those teenage experiences too whether it doesn't like uh I don't know like steal you up a little bit so that you know you kind okay people are give [...] fine [...] it I don't care you know you get a little of that thing going too right right which I probably healthy yeah yeah yeah yeah it's uh it's that uh what's the word I'm looking for um I can't think of the word never mind I I'll probably think of it in like 20 minutes and say it but I yeah can't think now but yeah I agree with you yeah it was kind of weird for me when I was a a a teenager I was really sick I had a lot of health problems and I was totally fine with being friends with like gay kids in the school though I wasn't gay you know this whole big thing developed like was gay and I had AIDS and it's like spread through the whole thing and I don't know if I fully got it I was talking to somebody recently about it and I was like wow okay and know you get weird reactions from people you know and I mean it's fine but it was one of those things where you know okay well that happened and then maybe in the end it kind of in a certain sense what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and you just come out with more character right to do what you want yeah still harsh it's still like feeling wise and where you're at uh developmentally and what that does to you but yeah like you said if you can get through something like that because I was I imagine at that time that was uh I mean that's what they that was like they know how to hit it hard on you right yeah I wasn't gonna not be friends with these gay kids I wasn't going to do it you know I mean I like these are friends I'm not gonna like all of a sudden back off on these you know friendships with these people yeah yeah yeah so then fader as so you have this you know kind of budding viewpoint desire as you're growing in high school and as you know you're you're married because you got married pretty young right um 30 not too young yeah married 30 oh but we were but we were together like since like I was 20 so we were together roughly 20 years right so I yeah so about 22 23 is when we started dating right so that but that's pretty young I mean that's not that yeah right you know and you were in this committed thing and and everything else right so you know as your you know relation relationship is developing and and and all of that like you're still you're still developing your ideas around sexuality around connection around Community around all that stuff started developing and and I'm I'm assuming that you had to find different Outlets you know for some of these kinds of things if you want to share some of them because I think it's interesting for people to who might be in a similar situation or or single still and looking to like express some of these internal like things that because these are this is you this is not a character you know what I'm saying so um yeah so I think during that time we um I drank a lot I was in the I was in the nightclub industry so I ended up drinking a lot and was able to you know I was never kept from having friends right so I ended up knowing I I say you acting you're you asking for Outlet my outlet was I danced I was a go- go dancer for a long time so I was able to like express myself feel sexy and I drank a lot during my 20s and I um I think you know I would I was quite the sabur when we talk about like archetypes it's like I definitely was in that savitur lifestyle I would stay out late I was not making it easy for my then boyfriend to accept me and he did all the way through he's like so your rootes get it out of your system I was very honest at one point when you know I just I knew that he wasn't going to be enough but then at the same time he was willing to accept me for all that so I didn't have many outlets except for staying out with people you know like my friends and being out all night and like just creating a really destructive environment for myself but not realizing that that's why I was doing it because I was still so uncertain I'm like I love this man so much um and that's where we start I guess we can start getting into that feeling of like not listening to yourself or trusting oneself um I became that woman who for all intent and purpose during my life was strong and and knew who I was and then coming to this point in my life where this person because you know around 20 something all of a sudden dark stuff starts coming up right from like your childhood and things because you're evolving you're growing so life is changing and I um wasn't really understanding what was happening with me I I think knowing this now didn't realize this before right I I didn't trust myself I didn't listen to myself I didn't um I was like listen this man loves the [...] out of me and he is putting up with my stuff in this growth period of mine and I owe him that because what do I know you know he's a little bit older than he's you know almost 10 years older than me so I'm like this man is on he knows his stuff he's spiritual he's got all this stuff going and he's just wanting to see that I'm happy and I I need to trust that and so that is where it all began is just this life of now becoming you know this girlfriend having this you know relationship with him and then moving forward so the outlet for me there was none except partying and we'd have so much fun and so that's kind of where that laid like I'm always like I'm really obviously from all the episodes we did last year that Daniel was talking about earlier and you we talked a little bit about these off mic I'm always really fascinated by like the the social pressures people feel around this yeah so did you feel like when you're you're so you're talking you're meeting somebody you're in your early 20s and there's an idea of how you're supposed to be and it's you know very intense I did you feel all that stuff like there's some howow there's some way I'm supposed to be so I better do this thing was that going through your head too I did because I never actually had an idea that I wanted to be married I had this a family well a sort of a family member of mine who never got married she was living the life traveling doing all the things and I'd say that she was like my spirit person right I I I was like this woman's having so much fun and she's doing it on her own now you don't know what's going on behind closed doors mentally or emotionally um but seemingly so I really I resonated with her lifestyle and and having her freedom and being able to do that and so yes once you're with someone and I already knew I didn't want kids so then there was that okay so I'm already Against the Grain and we had already had that discussion so now randomly this day came where I wasn't even thinking about marriage and it just like came up and I said okay well this is what the universe this is what spirit this is what all the things want for me and he's down and so nothing that I think matters and so I'm going with this because this is I can learn and I can I can change myself because he's so wonderful and I'm okay and so he makes me a better person that's some pretty complex honesty yeah to be honest like the way you're talking about that's not simple at all that's complicated right it's complicated feelings okay yeah yeah yeah yeah like processing it through because it's not simple no and and and I also want to I want to say that there was nothing that he did on a level of because maybe some people I imagine might interpret that as well he was forcing me or he was pressuring me or the things he was saying um this was all my own I remember him asking me and you know are you this is what you want to do and I was like yes of course this was my own um insecurity and all these things coming out um and not being able to be honest with myself because I didn't trust my voice and um I didn't it was all yeah it was my own mistrust of myself and then when you have someone that has so much trust in you and has all the things that you're lacking at that moment it's filling you until it's not and so how about like oh sorry Dan you yeah no so I'm just saying so then like so you you you enter into this into this Union right you know as at the particular point in your life and so does your does your just real quick that's a long time too that's like 20 years of your life right just to like my life like that's the part that like interesting to think about sorry I didn't mean to cut off D just that's a thing yeah does your Focus Shift at all at that point for a while did you did you take because you you want to be in you're not just dating anymore now it's like a consummated partnership and you said that you're like I'm going to trust in the universe that like this is here for me so I'm gonna do this thing I'm gonna try to be good at this you know yes and and did during that time did you're kind of did you have to change your focus or did your focus change to like say okay I'm gonna express myself in different ways or I'm gonna you know because those urges don't just like not urges but those those vehicles of expression don't just disappear those needs they don't just disappear and so I'm imagining or I'm wondering like how did you or did you consciously you know change um so consciously yes I decided that I was going to you know work on really making him happy and um and just you know making sure I had this perfect little house you know we never fought which usually means that we don't that you don't communicate if you don't if don't argue and don't have conversations the communication is not there and um I so that was yeah into my 20s and into my 30s so I I guess I would still um I made some interest not interesting I made decisions that were bad during the course of time and and then you know we would you know when we finally talked about that and realized that you know what we wanted out of the relationship wasn't moving forward but yeah it I I guess that whole time during the 20 years um my outlet like I said before it really was partying and just numbing myself now I can say this before I never say that it was ever a self-medication thing but I think numbing myself to my feelings and working late um I guess massage actually helped me to be able to connect with with people and obviously not in a sexual way because that's not what I do however uh it was still giving me Connections in a different in a different different way um I spent a lot of time as years went on and I think especially after marriage um I realized that I was spending way more time with my friends oh like not necessarily being present and um and then we talk about it and it would be like okay yeah we're going to change and then we just get right back into patterns and so for me um I found emotional connections with a lot of other people which I felt were loving and um and so that kind of took a precedent over what I was getting at home but then I'd come home and like wanted to be like that with you know with him and I wasn't receiving because our Cycles were off right like I get home he you know would be at this place in his day I'm at another place in the day I go to bed at this time he goes to bed at this time so we were always cycling at at different times and um so I think that I just became more involved with my friends and being with them and hanging out with them and that really made me that fulfilled me at the time um until we'd have a conversation and then try to change our own intimacy or our own thing yeah but then it becomes just an ugly cycle and it's yeah like one of our like subject matters of the last I don't know how long like last half a year or something we've been talking a lot about like repression like repression feelings and then the idea of like sublimation I'm all like I'm being all psyche about this but that's my background right so you know like the whole idea I think we all have experien as me I all of us right you repress stuff and then it like what Daniel was saying it doesn't go away it needs some Outlet some way or another and so you know people will put that in different places almost kind of like what you know even in your question Dan I sort of heard that idea of like sometimes it goes into work you know this part of my life sexuality isn't happening over here intimacy I'm GNA put it into my work my energies this way right yeah it's kind of like a sublimation thing right or sometimes it's like you know we'll we'll act out like okay I'm not getting what I want over here I'll act out kind of crazy over here in some other way I'll burn the energies out some other way and maybe I'll live a little bit more Wilder in some other ways you know kind of just find some outlet for these things but I mean what you're saying Daniel and what you're talking about vad is it doesn't go away it's still there some way or another right yeah yeah I guess like the other thing about it you know in this period when you're younger 13 to 20 or whatever you're like okay I have feelings I have bisexual feelings yeah you have that thing where okay this is probably GNA have to go latent you know that part which I don't think is easy at all and maybe that's something you can share of what that was like for you she's like okay I want to do this partnership with this person and this whole other side of me has to go that has to go El um so porn Okay the classic American answer right that's the most Amic uh yeah I think that that was my outlet for many many years on many many fronts um and you know I I realized many years ago I would be like oh yeah because I had gotten up to I mean I would I would watch porn a lot and not because of it more than just um because I'd always like go like gear towards more like the romantic stuff because I'm a romantic by heart 100% I love all the romance stuff and so to me that just that could like their energies towards each other regardless how fake it is um that's how I just yeah that's how I would kind of uh get that part out of it um yeah so I actually kind of like understand that because if I do anything that's going to be porn I usually like it when it's more like am stuff where you can tell these people actually can like like each other you know it's not like it's a total Act of some fake like director in the back the lighting might comes through and there's a shadow up some person's ass is the thing yeah yeah I totally get it I really like okay this might be cheaply shot in some whatever but at least these people like each other I me I can understand that there's a connection with the two people yeah that's worth I like that so as go ahead Eric go ahead no go please go ahead yeah go ahead no so so so all this so this time is happening you're you know I'm not going to say unable to express yourself but there's needs that are not being met you're kind of moving through life as you're you know trying your best to fit into a mold that probably is not for you at that time but you but you made the agreement you made the commitment you went in honestly openly trying to you know be in that particular Groove if you will but it wasn't it wasn't enough it wasn't enough it wasn't enough not anything on your partner it just your makeup didn't allow you to be in that thing naturally without feeling without while feeling comfortable I guess I could say you know and so then you're that that relationship sort of evolves and and kind of comes to a conclusion and now that and how long how long is that been now a couple couple years years that was I think uh we uh I think it was finalized in December of 22 okay so and we separated in January of 22 I moved out so yeah so it's been a couple God yeah oh my goodness it's so it's been it's been a couple years and now you're you know you're on your own and and able to you know do as you please do as do as you like and and you know which is an interesting journey to say the least um you know looking back at it now what are some of the things that you are you know happy about you know grateful for or have learned a lot from and what are some of the things that you wish you would have known ahead of time not that you're going to change because they're lessons for you but just like you know like if someone else is on the similar path right you could be like hey yeah um I definitely say this a lot I not that I wish I would have known I not even wish uh yeah I guess I I wish I would have continued that person I was in so much of my childhood of that honest and outgoing and the things that started to happen in junior high and high school which they mold a lot of who we are in our 20s and 30s but I I wish I continued to believe in myself and trust myself and be really knowing of what I wanted know what I wanted and stick to it um because what happens is when you're not honest with yourself you can't be honest with other people and when you're not honest with other people especially ones that you adore um it just creates such a world of hurt and um an unfairness so looking back I wish I had been honest on all accounts at the beginning um and trusted myself and I think that's the biggest thing that over the last couple years being on my own I've been able to really dive deep into all my shadow work and dive deep um you know even like I was saying before my values you know I never really thought about value syst and I didn't really even know what it was and I'm like what is this value system and I go okay freedom and I took like you know the test online and I'm like oh my gosh this is not this is nothing new I've have been a free a legit free bird since I was a child and that has never gone away I mean of course we get more experien in life I've just been a natural just a butterfly right and it's and not only to know that but say it's okay and I'm I've learned to love myself unconditionally which was really hard and uh back back then and the the um what's um the ability to um to do that over the last couple years and be by be alone in my home I really do love my space it's my space the way I want want it to look like the energy coming in is how I want it um and so those things to me are just top tier important in my life and um and I'm grateful for that I'm grateful that I just I have that opportunity to do this for myself yeah I was really like fascinated we were talking about some of the episodes again from last year even like off mik and you were talking about like your core value is freedom we said it off mic yeah yeah yeah it was like one of the things where you're like this is it you know this is the core value it's like okay cool um but like I learned a lot you know with the episodes Danel like did just thinking a lot about Carl Yung and you know his observation like okay there's roles and it's cool if you fit them but if you don't fit them it's hard right and you can try to force yourself into it you know and it sounds like you tried really hard to do it you're like okay I'm gonna try really hard I'm gonna throw myself into this thing but it was never like to fit right yeah just maybe at this point in the culture we can just be more honest about this and just be like hey sometimes this doesn't fit people yeah yeah and and and uh I know we'll move forward but yeah I think too that also the the things you know the just the destructive behavior on my part to myself too that was a huge indicator I was tired I was just I was I ended up just getting really exhausted like not being honest and um and grateful for him he he totally was very I mean I want to say supportive because there's moments when one is not but I've gotten a lot of support from him because where he is in his his life and his understanding of humans he's you know come to an understanding of me finding my way and um so it's very like special yeah so but it's it's been yeah it's been quite a can't believe it's been two years already but yeah it's you're right it's just been a it's good to have those um those moments and understandings and being able to be by myself you know because a lot of people can't and they don't want to be after a breakup or whatever no matter how many years the being by myself and having those moments to really like bask in all that grossness and like Beauty and all the things because they all go hand in hand yeah it's kind of funny in the culture I know it's like almost like a stereotype you watch a movie and the relationship doesn't work and then usually they point out one of the two people has to be a creep or something right always woman's a a [...] or something you know and like I have to be blamed on somebody but sometimes it's better that we get to the point where like hey it was nobody's fault right right not like that but the stereotype is always like you have to be someone has to be the bad one in the someone has to take that's always how the stories are too like you know yeah yeah yeah so you know sounds like a lot healthier just to say Hey you know and it's it's nice to hear a story where it wasn't like you know one of the people was wasn't doing their best you know under the circumstances they were doing their best it just wasn't the right circumstances for people yeah that's a great way of putting it so great way of putting it and I also believe that we all operate on our level of Consciousness right so and at the beginning of our 20 years my level of Consciousness wasn't very high and he gave me the platform over the years to find that and um and then when it came to the end uh you know we had to each go through our own our own thing and um I think he likes my person better now like where I'm at mentally uh and how I can communicate uh and I don't want to speak for him but I just I feel that there's more because I have better things to say and I'm not just like kind like you're being more yourself right you're always more interesting right like this is what I actually think right like trying to like fake it out in some way that I think is going to make things smoother whatever you know that the sit yeah yeah yeah well I guess maybe the one thing because we we have talked with people who go through these kinds of separations so how is it for you and then maybe we'll talk about the more you know some of the other stuff afterwards but was it like the fun stuff but was it like scary for you after all that time or you more like hey I'm ready to get out and do my thing and you know or kind of a mix I mean how was that it was it was scary at first like the very first day we had like the conversation I was scared and then not so much because we were still like living together and then I moved out and then I was like okay here's that first step and I think to be honest with you it's a bit scary now because I'm going through another transition on what I'm feeling of what I want and all the things um so I'm scared again because we still talk and would consider us friends um and he's gone through a change a you know post post on Mary so um it's I'm I I am a little there's a little fear and scary in each year has its own difference of why it's scary but I think initially because it was there was so much anger um that was scary but all along I knew in my heart going past that digging deep it was the best for me and maybe at some point I would say him um but I don't know that for sure because I don't want to speak for him so yeah so I guess all right so now you're like a single person and then was it like okay now I'm going to explore these things I haven't explored for all these years that it just come like okay this is it flooding out now yeah here we go here I am yeah yeah so yeah it's been interesting the first year I spent you know I had I just spent uh nurturing my my relationship with myself and hanging out with the friends that I wanted to hang out with um but spend the most time just alone and not in a bad way or a depressive way but more in a way that like I need to this is not me and everybody else time this is me time and this is time for me to grow grow and understand myself because you just you just left this so you owe it to yourself to figure your [...] out and so now last year I ended up um I don't know why I did this but I ended up getting on this website which is for swingers and I was like and they were having this New Year's Eve party and it just happened to be a place where uh all my favorite Chicago DJs like my house DJ music DJ were spinning and I'm like I'm going to go by myself so I went by myself and um and they had their own little private thing within this big party and you know I was meeting people and I uh I was like you know I'm just GNA see what it's like and it was cool like you know I stood out I mean not only because I was wearing a fullon like sequence one piece outfit that was pink right not because of that but because like you know I just I don't know I just have a presence I guess and so by the end of the night you know I got some invitations oh we're having this party back plays blah blah blah and I'm like you know what I had one drink I danced my ass off I'm going back to my own H like my own place and I'm gonna finish this dance party and I did and it felt so good and exchanged some numbers with people and then you know first thing I'm on this website though like blooded with like and I'm just like this is over overwhelming I'm like and I learned a lot about you know there's some couples that have like multiple women a week and there's some couples that just kind of do this once in a while and a lot of couples that are like we just like to get to know you and then if something happens great if not and I got to practice where my boundaries were I got to practice saying no I got to practice saying thank you for you know thank you for a fun time but I don't think that we're you know going to this isn't going to work for me and so that was the biggest part of getting into that was just uh practicing my own strengths and the fact that I can say no and that not fear of people not liking me because I say no uh and that was huge for me I think was that like a conscious identity thing that you were doing because you used the word unicorn before where you're like hey maybe I'm this or was it more like kind of just intuitively you just started doing stuff and you maybe I'm a unicorn yeah so I went in knowing that my sole purpose of being not sole purpose I don't mean that that's not that's not the right word the idea learning that open marriages and open relationships I really was in I was curious as to um how they're Dynamics were and seeing and as I got to get to as I got to know more couples I was very impressed with their honesty uh with their their love for each other their families how they operate uh their rules um and I was like you know what I I like and then having them come and and and come to me and be like hey um yeah let's go out let's hang out and then enjoying my company and having still a friendship because we would sometimes just go out for drinks right nothing happens and I was like this is great I so just loved the relationship Dynamic with them and to this till now you know I um and I've met so many so many different couples now um through friends and I really first and foremost just love talking and getting to know you know how long they've been in it what they do there are some couples that actually won't mess with unicorns because there's so many emotions so there apparently are a lot of unicorns too that have maybe not the right reasons or not as self-aware and get into these things um and probably like we discussed off air being more into the poly stuff rather than just the swinger stuff oh yeah how much emotion is there going to be between any person in that married couple and then the new person who's entering into the dyamic where where are people Comfort levels with that yeah maybe just for maybe some of the audience who might not know the difference can we maybe maybe one of you uh cool cool cats talk about maybe like swingers versus polyamorous you had a good way of saying it before Eric if you want to okay I could try it again so I think some people have like usually the the lingo goes something like you can have open marriages you know but maybe the swinger thing is usually more communi of people parties things like that you know it has that social element to to it where some people might have an open marriage and they just meet people online or something they're not doing that you know but there are kind of communities of swingers right and has more of that feeling to it and then the PO Amry thing is really more the idea like okay I want more of a longer term thing where there's a more of an emotional intellectual heart connection more the Romantic part almost like what you were talking about yeah and it makes sense because if you know in some of the swinging thing and this is like the stereotype but there's some truth to it where you know you don't necessarily want that emotional connection with this other person it's more of a explore our sexuality thing express our sexuality part but not necessarily like the emotional connection yeah yeah yeah yeah that seems to be maybe kind of a difference and then some people might even have like real red flags or boundaries around that but be no yeah yeah right and I find that being who I am um whoever it is is that day um when I come into the situation uh I you know I've I've met some people who have brought me into their their world and their friends their group of friends and I found so many like cool people and I I had to take a second this is actually fairly recently where I had to step back and understand that you know the majority like these are all people that are married or seriously dating and this whole group is that and until I maybe have another person I'm not necess I'm cool whatever you know I'm not looking to you know go and disrupt the flow of anything uh but they don't know that because some of the stories I've heard of some of the women that come into these situations they've C they've started some some ripples right and um whether purposely or you know by on ACD accident uh and I know my place I'm you know a lot I'm I feel like I'm pretty self-aware and I I know my wants my needs and we you know talked about all that um and I think that for a lot of women coming into this they're kind of just like oh it's going to be fun it's a free-for-all and and that's not you know that's not how I feel so the friendships that I make in these in these situations um I do find important and so I do you know I'm realizing that um the other stuff might be harder because I'm not really wanting to like just go to parties and do all that stuff so um I'm coming to terms with the feeling like hey that was fun the whole unicorn thing was fun um but is it really fulfilling is my is is my body and my heart and my mind aligned that when I want to do these thing like when I want to go into this it's uh it's it's doing it's it's actually like doing something good for me and uh I I don't know necessarily that it will for much longer well you were kind of describing it when we were talking off mic beforehand like okay this is a Continuing Story right this is not a story that's done this is a process that's continuing to grow and develop for you just under the communic thing because I know people in po World in Chicago and the communication thing I do respect that there's something interesting when people really have to talk you know oh yeah and my my one of my poly friends has this thing where he says like you know sometimes when you know he meets women who are like nonpol people but he's just getting to know them he's like wow you're really talking like we're really talking like we're communicating this is not being phoned in like this is for real and that part I feel like a little bit like the same way you I like knowing people and talking and like really having that that thing of really like let's be honest and let's really talk things through and let's know what what it really is and these things sometimes make you do that right yeah that's that's that's that's me I like to be very open especially when I'm even when I'm hanging out with uh new people uh that I'm just going out who I know aren't part of who who I I I imagine aren't part of Lifestyle because I haven't met them I've gone out with some some people that aren't necessarily that way and I feel like I've scared a few people you know they because I'm very like upfront you know second second date I'm just like here's me here's my stuff and I'm telling you this now and it's a lot and you can digest it I just want to put it out there because here's where I'm at right now and I don't want us like getting to know each other and I feel like that's a lot because I wasn't like that before and so is there maybe a better way for me to uh communicate these things maybe but I don't want to I just don't want to beat her around the bush with stuff anymore I don't have time like if you're maybe create a p maybe create a pamphlet with my picture on yeah so here is this read it and you know the person has to check each box that they readit and sign on the back yeah like get a QR code with a website yeah there you go here we go here's me just you know read it to your disclosure um know but yeah and so I I don't know I I uh I kind of feel that the communication is and people I I I I feel like there's a lot of confusion and some individuals listening or you know who aren't in this world are kind of like oh you had talked about sled shaming before like oh they're just in this to like be this and this and the other thing and what I found is that these individuals in my experience who are in this world like really have strong relationships have been together since high school 20 30 years now and they trust each other and they are looking for something and that's another thing too I mean this may not last forever this idea that they want to do this but being able to have them honestly open up to me and and share this adventure that they're going on um I really I I just I love that and I love that that openness um and it's not always about not always about many times it is just having that sexual experience and you know um being done with it and then you know forgetting uh I do really enjoy the the the friendship or the relationship part of it and not meaning like a committed or anything but just you know having something that's you're sharing your lives with each other and they want to get to know you it's not like hey just come over at noon and have some fun um yeah and if some people think I think that they think that's what this world is all about and not in every circumstance is that about you know um and what I've noticed with the groups that I've hung out with is they do a lot of just fun stuff together I mean they're always going out they do trips they do you know just friend stuff that doesn't entail anything more but they are comfortable with each other because this is like you know they're the weird people we're the weird people yeah know it's so like I uh God how do you like the way these things are handled in any given culture is just like the way that culture does it right so the whole idea like it's supposed to be some particular thing it doesn't have to be some particular particular thing like people in the whole history of people have done this a lot of different ways and people want different things right yes yeah yes the other thing that like really struck me and I'm gonna give a little shout out to one of the sex positivity podcasts that I stumbled across at one point when I was sort of interested in this you know it's some you're just like stumbling across things so it it's called My Life on the swing set I like that it's clever great so they did that they did the thing where they were I was one of the episodes and they were doing a public talk and it made me think of some of the things you were saying because they just said well you know you try something and okay maybe you like it maybe you don't but if you don't try if you try it and it isn't something you like it's not the end of the world it's okay yeah you're really given that Vibe too okay you tried something you know okay that's cool I tried it I did it maybe I was into it maybe I wasn't into it right you know and they talk about like with all kinds of things like you know maybe there's a guy who's never been with another guy before so you tried it yeah you liked it or you didn't like it you didn't like it okay you don't have to go home and like feel all broken up about it right it's okay you tried something and that's it you know and yes and that's like what you were talking about with the whole shame stuff you know it's like we and that shame comes from like oh what are people going to think about me well don't fing tell anybody then like you don't have to share stuff with everybody you know it's like you did it it's like don't be so hard on yourself you know you didn't didn't hurt anybody else this is your own this is your own adventure this is this is your life and you don't know if it's going to make you happy until you try some things right um uh so yeah but I think especially with this and like what you were saying just in the sexuality portion of things uh yeah there's a lot of fear and a lot of different things for sure and thinking that like well I'll never do that because that means that this is going to make that I'm gonna D D D D and you're like no man like relax like this is a safe space first of all and you know get out there explore you know yeah but teach their own you know whatever's gonna make you happy it was interesting in the this whole podcast I was listening to it and I was like wow these people are being really honest So Daniel and I were joking before you came on I got this mic it's a little dangly my like mic has a little rectile dysfunction thing going on here needs a little help like a little Calis or something so we're joking about it and then heel said well you know it's kind of more of a it's more of a grower than a shower just kind of like does your penis show or does it grow you know right right right so we were joking about it you know and then but one of the guys on the podcast and I was like I can't believe he's talking about this he was like well you know I'm more of a I'm more of a grower than a shower so I have to go in these situations and I have to tell people hey I'm more of a grower in the shower just so you know and he had to get over that anxiety feeling you know you know that's and I was listening to it I was like that's some bold [...] you know to feel that comfortable in yourself you know because that could feel so anxious for people you know body image things and all that no matter who you are I was like man that is like some deep [...] they're talking about this you know they're doing on the podcast for everybody here you know but he was just like okay this is my honest thing you know and you go into relationsships with people and just like hey this is it and I was like this is amazing how honest you have to be with yourself in those situations right yeah yeah I um I feel as though this um well I don't think that I I'm I don't hide like I don't hide this part of my life or um I don't lie about it however I'm I'm not really it's not something that I'm just like look at me unicorn you know well maybe not because I do we Lots of unicorn stuff so maybe I am kind of showing but no one really asks uh I think this is really the first time and you know when this is over and it comes out and I share it um I'll really get a I'll get an idea of who actually goes on and listens to my stuff so that'll be great um but I'm really excited I felt a little trepidation with it at first I was like when Daniel asked was like yes and then I was like whoa oh my gosh wait a second do I okay what am I and I went through all this stuff in like two minutes and then I was like take a breath freaking relax like you're gonna be fine and this is me and I don't want to shelter that I think I sheltered it for a very long time and people don't like it ah [...] don't need it you know I mean I don't know definitely like I've had the experience of like before Daniel L go to an episode we're like I'm gonna say some weird [...] on this episode I'm a little nervous Daniel's always great because I was like okay dude we'll do it you know so that's Daniel he'll support you and stuff man that's like one of Daniel qualities okay I got a couple more things in mind I guess I would ask I know what you have in mind to ask too Daniel but I don't we probably got maybe about five or six minutes left so if it's a weird question you can certainly tell me fedra but like if you think back to the relationship that you had especially since you were kind of knew you were a bisexual person was it ever a conversation you all had of like well maybe we should just open this up maybe that would make this relationship even better you know yes um the conversations we had at first were not met with much um he was like whatever and um I don't think he really took me seriously um because I really did try to like push it in there um so yeah so definitely and then at the end it was brought up but we were both um I think we he he wasn't quite um cool with the idea of compar compon which compersion is the idea that you can look at your partner being happy with someone else as well you know or you all that stuff so you're just all accepting of other people making that your person happy almost like your other partner being happy even if it's with another person doesn't trigger much jealousy it triggers like May some but it triggers more like okay happy for this person totally kind psychological change yeah yes yes and it's and that's one thing if anyone's get like wanting to get into that whole R of even just having threesome remember that like the sounds that your person makes with you and that joy that they're making with you you're going to have to listen to with another person and if you don't think you can accept that then you need to wait like because that's when problems are going to get started so don't get into that just because to make your partner happy yeah it's not the visuals or the smells it's the sounds it's the sounds well no it's true it's like it's that emotional because you know the the whatever the pumping and the grinding and the thing it's like whatever but that that those noises that you think are just for you then you start hearing them with another person I mean that's I think can really like shoot you it's a reaches you to a different level that's why I always recommend when people start stuff like that ball gags for [Laughter] everybody you recommend that for everything Daniel also also true also true I feel like I've heard that a few times like well there's a way around it amazing yeah I guess the only other last thing maybe in the lingo part might be because some of what you're talking about [...] almost sounds like these words which may people maybe haven't heard before like demisexual and saposexual these kind of words like demisexual means like for you your sexuality means you want to feel an emotional connection with someone and I think doing those episodes last year that we kind of referenced here and there I realized like oh that's who I am you know I want emotional connection and the sapos sexuals you want an intellectual connection so there's all this terminology popping out in the culture you might be like I don't know what any of this stuff is but demisexual is I want the emotional connection and saposexual has I want the intellectual I want the both and I just realiz we're looking through those those episodes and I was like okay let me figure out what I really feel I was like yeah that's what I really want more than anything what do you I listen to a lot of your episodes yeah your episodes I listened to last year and that was like on you guys were on at the end of the year with the 2023 Spotify you guys were like number two I think on my or three on my list of things that I listened to and so I was like yes because I you guys got me through a lot of your topics were pretty relevant yeah last year last year was the year of the uh the the poly Excursion you know yes yeah we were're supposed to talk about sex but it still hasn't happened yet well we are a little bit we're opening we're never tou talking like this is like the most sexual episode we've ever had for sure well thanks for having me on and this is not so everybody understand this is not a classic Christian uh threesome normally that's two girls and one guy that's a that's an FFM thing right yeah well yeah I don't know I don't even know where to start vure thanks so much Daniel do his closing thing and he's you guys just just thanks a lot man it's really great you yeah thanks thanks for sharing F you know we I I wanted to have you on I wanted to talk about this stuff here but this is like this is kind of the the the new place where you are and I think it's really it's nice to hear the journey as to how you you know got there and the importance of like really your own understanding and being in your own Evolution right like because when you do it I talked about this earlier with somebody mutual friend that we have like if you're usually challenged to your maximum right all of your tools are required to get through most of your obstacles because the ones when you're not challenged you could see through it you know you're like oh that's not a big deal you know but then on when you can't see around it then you have to use all of your tools and usually you get a new tool after that situation and so it's it's nice to hear you learning and growing after all of this and where you are then you're still in a growth phase you're still in a learning phase and I think that's you know to to your point and and to Eric's point over many episodes now it's not a set you know it's not a set thing you're you're you found a new community of like-minded folks yeah and yet sometimes it's it's physically based but sometimes it's just getting to know people who share this thing Eric shared AO a story of a party where he or a when he went to a party and he was like oh you think he went to a poly party and right he was like there someone was like oh I think that way and Eric's like oh yeah me too and everyone's like oh yeah me me me so you realize that like the way that you view things is shared by other people and there's like instantane instantaneously a kinship of like-minded folks and it just takes the barriers to connection down even if it's not like a sexual thing you're just you're just feeling like oh this is I don't like to use it but this is a safe space of like-minded people who can hold this place for me to express myself and I'm going to do the same with them because we're coming from a similar Place Y and I think in unfortunately in the society that we have and in many other societies around the world as we do have some International listeners um there isn't there is not a lot of room for that actually I mean there's you have to find niches for it and it's accepted in some spots but if you don't find yourself fitting in the mold of the rest of society where do you go how do you express yourself when do you do those things and then who's going to be there with you at the end that's all kind of a mystery that people are just sort of figuring out as time moves on 100% yeah I agree like listen to a podcast like this you know like for me I listen to other people talk like we're all talking like we all like to talk yeah and listen yeah and I was like okay people are sharing these things so maybe someone listens to you know fedra talking and goes okay I I have some of these feelings too yeah right and that's how it spreads right more people are kind of more people get to be free in the end right because you hear people saying hey I think this way and then you other people speed up inside of themselves be more themselves too exactly I hope so bodh sappa activity for our little bit of spirituality of this right go well feder thank you so much for coming on thank you for being vulnerable thank you for sharing your story with us and um with everybody else here on you know YouTube or Spotify or apple or wherever people get their their podcast from um so so yeah thank you we do appreciate everybody watching listening uh sending messages or whatnot so uh if you have any you know questions or anything like that comments or whatnot you know feel free to leave a comment in the YouTube section uh if you want to hit us up uh email us at Jin and Tantra gmail.com if you're on Instagram you know the JY and Tantra podcast is where we are we post all of our little pictures of the video clips up here and and uh people can you know leave a comment there uh if for many reasons you want to get a hold of of fedra just you know send us an email and uh we'll connect you yeah and uh yeah no we appreciate everybody tuning in and listening and everything else so if you find our work useful please feel free and maybe even obligated to share it with your friends or enemies you know you never know they might become your friend after after they hear some magical words can make your enemy into your friend that's fedra is gonna have a much easier time making your enemy into your friend than me or Eric will so you know she got that special sauce so anyways um feder again thanks for coming on so much we you guys very very much appreciate of course Eric thanks for for doing this as always um and for fedra and Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace