[Music] hey fellow G and teers those of us like our spirituality with a Twist so we are uh getting to the tail end of a little series we've been doing about attachment Theory and uh Tantra and this idea of karma mudra the sort of tantric relationship stuff we'll probably wrap this little section up specifically on attachment Theory and then let this subject matter go for a little bit once we get something out of the the toothpaste out of the tube we'll tend to come back to it later or something because there's probably more things for us to talk about with Karma mudra but you know uh gotta keep the conversation Lively we'll move on to some new things we got some ideas cooking about where to go next but for this episode we're going to really talk about uh attachment Theory and Tantra specifically and kind of throw at our final thoughts and ideas about this yeah and uh so anyways that's that's the subject matter of today as we've been trying to do at the beginning of the podcast to though uh if you can help us out by doing a little of the things everyone asks you to do like subscribe and all the good things that would be great so we can fight the evil the evil Demi urge of the algorithm to get this spiritual stuff out to people so um all right hopefully do the things and uh we'll get on with our little conversation here so this is a little bit more freestyling because we did really deep dive into the whole detail of the theory have people you know learn about it and see what app plot to them um and this is maybe to think about this in terms of spirituality so we'll go back and forth I suppose Daniel and just kick this around right for me um one of the things that popped into my mind first about this because we're kind of doubling back to this idea of like karmic relationship Karma moodra relationship and healing these things up and establishing these things and one of the things that really hit me was there's no um there's no perfect solution to the problem of relationship between people don't right there's no um there's no absolute like perfect way to solve relationship problem in the big picture sense right no absolute solution to that there's no like absolute life hack that solves all of these things you know and I was just thinking a lot of it has to do with from a spiritual point of view just the idea that we are in what you might call samsara right this kind of fancy Buddhist word but maybe one of the ways of talking about the samsara idea is that like we're in an imperfect Place yeah this world is imperfect we all have our flaws and Imperfections right and so to say that there's some perfect way to do this like that just isn't going to happen right and I'm sure you feel the same way too yeah um that being said for me because we like to do things kind of personal on this podcast for me this is kind of like a big deal you know we haven't done it yet but one of the things things in the pipeline to do sometime off in the future is a little bit of spiritual astrological stuff and um there's especially this idea of like um figuring out kind of where your ton is to use some cabala language where you really feel like your astrological thing that you're working towards for towards is and for me it has a lot to do with this relationship aspect of things for people who might know some astrology the way I'm talking about this will be Pisces in the North Node in the th house so Pisces will have to do with spiritual questions and the seventh he will have to seventh seventh house will have to do with relationships if you don't know astrology don't worry about it we got people who are interested in that but when you blend those two things together I feel like this is a really important thing for me on a personal level the spirituality of relationships and trying to just figure that out it's a major sort of you might say karmic question within my life you know so I think about that quite a bit and then this attachment Theory kind of fits into that too you know how do you work out and how do you find the spiritual aspect of these things I I'll throw it back to you Daniel though how do you feel about that how important is that to you it feels astrologically and karmically important for me but we all have our own things that are important to us yeah I guess I'm trying to figure out what aspect what aspect you mean is important well I mean like I think this is a really core spiritual question in my life right oh just like attachments and general relationship yeah I think I think relationship and spirituality how those things get kind of Blended together really matters yeah I mean I guess all these things that have to do with relationship attachment Theory and all the other stuff that talk about yeah if you take the if you take the larger um the larger view right and we look at this from like a Buddha Dharma s right so you're talking about your own soul your own Spirit the the teachings and the experience of those teachings as the D as the Dharma and the S is the community of people right and we we can call it you know congregation if you want to use a a more Christian kind of term flock if you will that those that as a group of people it's only a group because there is individual relationships that are collectively added up in order to equal a group right and so those kinds of people who are in this you know spiritual tradition are helping to support those people around them to remind them of whatever Jesus Buddha Muhammad doesn't matter you know but those are based on in those are those are links in the chain those are Legos one on top of the other on top of the other creates the entirety of the Lego and so in and what we're talking about is really interaction you know and how your interactions with people affect you affect them and they how they affect others and then how your you know we've done a couple episodes now on like I'm not going to call it childhood attachment Theory but essentially that's what it kind of was based on yeah you know and how that affects the how you interact with people moving forward in a romantic partnership or and and also not in a romantic partnership how you show up as a person on your half on your side of the relationship but because it doesn't matter how many links in the chain there are the only link that matters is the one that is weakest you will essentially have to be um as mindful as you can about your own [...] basically you know and so this kind of um observation puts forth the obligation of the person to do their own work not just for themselves but for their Partners right for their relationship Partners but then for their co-workers for their family members and then obviously with the with the Greater Community so for me unless you are a Hermit which there are very few of these you know are people who live outside Society there I mean you know there's greater or lesser degrees of people who live in more rural areas but we are not separate from each other by any means I didn't make any of my clothes you didn't make any of your clothes and my guess is most of our listeners didn't make any of their clothes we're interrelated far more than we than we even fa fathom can fathom on a general basis so this kind of dive into the inner workings of relationships or at least what we have opened up you know from a spiritual perspective and from a practical perspective # Capricorn um is is an essential part of what we're already doing and and part of our larger mission is to Enlighten people to the subconscious things that they're unaware of and having human interaction is something everybody has so at a at a baseline you could pay attention to how you do that and then maybe figure out why you do some of the things that you do so you could become better at the thing that you're definitely going to do because you are never not going to see and work with people even if you don't quote unquote work with people you're still working with people you know what I'm saying yeah there's no way around like uh the working with people ain't gonna happen no matter where you're going there GNA be somebody else staring back at you exactly yeah so if I like think about like these questions of relationship and attachment and where I you know like I've had issues around this it gets a little bit back to this idea of um where I would feel my karma kind of Lies which is trying to figure out how do you create spiritually profound relationships with other people I'm really trying to figure out how to do that right as a again like part of my spiritual process it's like again we can look at it from this idea of ton this is what I'm trying to work on and and explore and understand and uh some of this gets back back to this idea of um sort of uh our uniqueness and exclusiveness thing right just to get that out of the way because I was thinking like how do we talk about this and inevitably that question kind of comes up whenever we're doing relationship stuff I think really good as a podcast to have people on with different perspectives on this right yeah so you know we have fedra on periodically I know you're doing a lot of stuff with her and you talk about this from her perspective which is much more open relationship perspective right for sure for sure and uh and for me you know we use these words uniqueness and exclusiveness kind of coming from Esther paral we talked about it a lot before but it's just this idea that like exclusivism is more sort of traditional relationship Styles you know more like the closed relationships uniqueness has this idea of maybe the more open relationship kind of styles right that the power of the relationship comes from framing it as something special between those two people and not thinking structure of the thing is and exclusivism having a much more of an emphasis on uh traditional relationship structure you know and especially idea that we're only going to share things between the two of us and so I thought about this stuff kind of a lot because to me like at the heart it's it's a hard thing to talk about but to me the heart of this attachment Theory thing is kind of like two sets of needs let me kind of double back on it to pull it together to the attachment stuff to my mind sure I think about that I think well if we look at it that's two sets of needs one set of needs has to do with feeling secure right sure having that part met this kind of idea of like the safe haven idea and the other part has a lot to do with like what they were calling the secure base this idea can you go out and explore the world right and then how do you find some kind of balance between those two things and I I mean I think that that's like just a really challenging thing for each of us to try to figure out what that means to us right you think about that within your own life too yeah I think so okay not so much well I I think when when you were talking what the question I was asking myself when you were talking that I had a hard time deviating from was when you when you talked about cultivating a a spiritual relationship yeah yeah and maybe if we if I just broaden that just a bit and I'll say uh deeply meaningful relationship right because that's kind of how we're and I think that like that is such a an interesting question just toos to people who are listening a what what are your significant relationships and I know family is not always in that list of you know whatever but then if we're going to talk about that like are are is that something that like you have found or is it something that I'm more curious about found you now obviously once you're past the the you know the NRE as we like to call it the new relationship energy of the thing and I'm not even talking about romantic I'm talking about like meaningful relationships which could be romantic but otherwise poly or monogamous n is like poingo anyways most yeah for sure yeah right it's hot um but then I don't know I I feel like the relationship I I think and we've talked about this before Eric so you know this is a little bit old hat but like I think it's less about finding those things and it's more about allowing those relationships because much like yourself and me as well and I'm not sure of the audience hold on let me ask them oh that's right I can't hear you so you're going to have to hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com or slide into the DMS uh on the gr at Jin and Tandra podcast or leave a comment in the YouTube section you like that that's so slick that I just do that at any point you guys have to understand the level of awareness I'm like a radio show host that doesn't get paid to do this so you know but anyways I I feel like you have to um be in places and be open to these relationships and say yes to them and then put the effort into them because much like yourself and myself there are have been numerous deep con connections that I found that could have been really um expansive in in my life and potentially in their life as well and sometimes it's romantic but not always that people don't they're not willing to open themselves up to that it's almost like it's too much or something else and there's a difficulty in them allowing themselves to experience this kind of a thing and both you and I have had these conversations off mic in particular about the importance of a finding these people and then more importantly recognizing their importance that they are rare they're they it's not your standard you know and there's nothing wrong with standard friendships where you could come over watch the football game or you know go go have coffee and enjoy each other's company or whatever uh we're talking about the the like the very kind of like small but important gears that make the big machine go you know what I'm saying that these things have to be honored they really really do because they don't just pop up every day they really don't and so once you find them and acknowledge them then the work starts then the attachment Theory comes in so that you can kind of work and make sure that you don't you're not pulling when they're pushing and vice versa does that does that answer your question yeah yeah and I think that like I was you know we did one of our first J and Tantra meditation Retreats over the last five or six days went really awesome hopefully to see hopefully see people again or see new people who might be listening this when we do this thing again at some point but you know I had like an really interesting conversation with one of the retreat participants had a lot of interesting conversations with a lot of retreat participants there was a lot of good conversations happening stuff happening but um one of the guys was basically saying you know your worldview is really really Buddhist like really really Buddhist and I was like uh you know sometimes when it's something so deep you don't even really think about it you know what I mean yeah so like yeah I guess that's true like I'm all in on this you know after so many years of doing this too and it's so ingrained in who I am yeah I realized for the attachment Theory stuff we were talking about it's ingrained in that sense too I think in way I think very similar to what you were describing when I think about the world I think well we're all Spirit that's intwined with matter for this time we have these karmic resonances with the people around us right in different ways right very do this kind of thinking right some of those things are very profound and very deep cultivations that might have happened you know in a Buddhist way even over lifetimes but in any case things that like are very you could almost say like alchemically profound right and so my way of trying to deal with like attachment stuff if I look at it honestly has been go through and said well okay I'm going to see if I can find my peeps yes I will connect with those Peeps and that will be how my attachment needs will be met and this has worked to varying degrees of like success in the way I look at it right yeah had you know deep interactions with people in a certain sense I can't complain and again I kind of come from this uniqueness perspective I have a you know it's okay I can make connections with other people and you know I have relationships that can be more open in that way right and I you know again I and some of this have been friendships some have been more romantic relationships or you know things where there's more of that kind of romantic qualities to them Saucy some of them been Saucy some have been frisky some have been like as we would say in other episodes some of them have been a little bit more like uh demisexual oh Demi demisexual the uh the uh the emotional connections seposexual what is that called saposexual sa yeah sapio yeah let me don't that's that I mean that's my jam for sure that you love people's minds I do yeah me too it's a uh it's a thing there is a blessing and a curse thing yeah yep mind makes it hot so um so I you know it's one of the things where I can't complain but this also has been one of the major sort of things to figure out in my life right because in a way I think what I realize when I think about attachment Theory I think of well there is a way where you could say you're one attach exclusivism that you're one attachment to this one person right primary thing or for me uniqueness where I'm like I'm going to have like attachment that might be a little bit more kind of spread out a bit right and my I won't look for you know that one person who's gonna be like the single attachment or something you know right yeah the one but it's kind of weird in the sense that I realized from what the person was telling me at the retreat I was like oh yeah that flows really naturally out of my worldview because I think in this way I tend to think oh no we're interconnected beings right all of us interconnected right for this lifetime more so in the way that we can we have a certain resonance with one another right resonances and I realized oh that actually flows like really naturally out of my whole worldview and so I think for me what I'm trying to share is this idea like yeah I realized that my whole way of thinking about these things is sort of a an uh a an outgrowth of this underlying kind of way of like looking at everything kind of right I don't think I had like I had thought about that before obviously we've even had these conversations a little bit before but the clarity of it was quite striking and then I started to think okay well how can we talk about this in a way that will be helpful to different people and I was realizing like okay for me I started to think this uniqueness is a sort of a way of like being in the world right it's a certain kind of philosophy I grabbed this little book over here I'll do the best I can with this called Buddhist philosophy who's it by It Is by it's a kind of an old commentary from the school of the Daly llamas and it's kind of like two modern authors especially this Daniel koser is kind of a big person in talking about Buddha scholarship doesn't look too a little bit fuzzy but anyways put maybe to a link to it later but it was interesting because I thought well one of the things they do in these old Buddhist books is they talk about this idea of like what are the tenants of different ways of looking at the world and this word tenants is a very Buddhist sounding world word but what they mean is like what's the underlying philosophy that people take into their lives right and um and so they in these old books they go through and they say well here's what Hindus think and here's what dawis think you know from our Buddhist perspective we're going to describe the different worldviews okay I kind of realized like well as I take a step back and I was to think about it that realiz like well this uniqueness thing for me fits into like a whole worldview right it's actually like a natural outgrowth of how I look at like life in general right it all has a certain coherence to me right yeah and I okay I want to be able to also to understand you know this more exclusiveness kind of mindset and I begin to realize for myself oh that's a like almost like a different set of tenants that's like an underlying different Philosophy for people right and I thought for this episode when I was thinking about it I was kind of going okay well that means that in part part of the conversation for me is to go okay so how do like how would an exclusiveness person think about this and then what are the issues that they're going to face that might be different than mine right when they're trying to figure out these attachment things for themselves right that's what I'm trying to say yeah yeah so you know for me then I was kind of going all right well what are the issues involved in this you know and when I go back to the main question which is something like there's two different sets of needs right there's these more Yin needs that you feel like you're secure and there's more Yang needs where you feel like you get to explore the world or something right right right right and what are the challenges of that right I can talk about it from my perspective by I also you know know most of the people that are going to be listening are going to be much more like exclusiveness minded people right so I was curious what you think about that whole set of issues because you know depending on the style of how you're going to live your life what your underlying belief system is you're gonna be faced with like different kinds of challenges so I think one of the big challenges of the exclusiveness thing is going to be that you're going to have like a big emphasis placed on security needs right but you know in general you're going to also maybe have less of that exploratory quality of being all in the world at least with other people you know well well I mean a little bit more potentially cut off I mean you know in in shout out to the one of the episodes that I did with fedro I think it was the last one that we recorded we talked about like uh you know safety and spontaneity or security and spontaneity as you know two requirements for a relationship but their their their dichotomy is is required and if you move too far one way or the other you lose the other important part because they're equally important so if you're in anything of any length you have to have security because it has to feel safe for you so that you can relax be vulnerable emotionally physically all the other things you can't be kinky if you're scared about the other person injuring you for the most part you know I know there's some other things that I might not be aware of of like you know this even like normal sexuality you can't yeah so for the most part you have to feel safe in order to express yourself express your limits Express all the other things or else you're going to everything is just going to be bound up you're going to be in a fight ORF flight kind of spot you're not interested in being sexy or being open um but then on the other hand when you have that if you're not also conscious about keeping things spontaneous then you lose the exploratory part which is what you're probably going to talk about in a second but the exploratory part I think there's two pieces to it there's the exploratory part of the world right which is kind of like half of it but the other half is the exploratory part of yourself in the relationship or maybe we even say say yourself and the relationship because those two things the they're mere images of each other moving out and moving in is moving but if you're unsecure in your relationship ship then you don't have that kind of home base in order to work from it it's not there so you don't feel like I'm if I'm not Tethered to something if I'm not grounded here then I might just float away you know and then then you leave and now your attachment stuff comes to play are you avoidant anxious blah BL you know all those kinds of things yeah yeah yeah yeah I agree with it I also like again like I'm it's weird for me because I'm like trying to look at this and and uh you know be as honest as possible about these things and part of it is you know if you're going to like be with this same person for like years and years and years and decades and decades and decades that's physically not that easy no right and I don't want to like you know if we're gonna talk honestly in this podcast the way we'd like to I don't want to like minimize that like that's actually you know quite a difficult thing and when you get to the attachment part on the one hand you get lots and lots of Safe Haven right but then it's challenging right in the sense that well how do I get the secure basee thing or how do I get you know this element of Yang and excitement I mean I realized this somehow back in the day you know too you I was like studying dosm and uh Zen and these things and I said yeah there's really like two sets of needs here that are tricky to figure out how you're going to get those met and I just want to be honest about it right one side is I do think that if you don't have that feeling of security then I think they'll trigger the [...] out of your attachment stuff no matter who you are I do think that's true right but on the other hand I think I don't know culturally as a world viiew right the way you're trying to solve these sets of problems certainly in the context of the culture in which we live then you have this thing where okay I'm going like I'm going to get a lot of a certain kind of security but then you know I have this very difficult problem of what do I do to keep generating more of that Yang and more of that excitement I think hon as we can about that so what do you think about that said questions right in the context of like the exclusivism thing it's not that easy no no no it's it's really not no I mean it's not but I mean I mean you you I mean you said that's a real honest answer you know what I mean yeah yeah it's not easy like it's the simplest thing to say but it's one of the most complicated things everyone's gonna have to try try to figure out how to deal with it's not easy correct yeah you got thoughts no it's not I mean there's not there's not much to be I mean more than I mean I I I just said it really right with it so there's I don't I don't know that there's I mean there's so much more to be said in terms of like ways and things but we we've done so many episodes on this at this point like I I it's it's a complicated topic we've you know I feel like we've we've done a pretty good Justice up until this point just in general yeah but it like has to do it back to this thing of this attachment Theory how do you get these two sets of needs met it's not small at all no no well I mean the answer is always you have to be it yeah you know what I mean like you if you are a safe haven for somebody then hopefully that gets reciprocated in a relationship and if you understand what you are willing to accept and then what you are not willing to accept then I think you will be able to see the limits of which to the limits to which you can exist in a relationship authentically as yourself but then also be ready to be like okay this is not I you you're not I am providing so much more for you than you are for me and while that might be good for a Time ultimately this is a kind of a one-way thing and I just don't find that to ever be healthy in the long run for people because God forbid the person who is the provider and I'm not even talking about financially you know what I'm saying I'm talking right if they need something The Habit is already set for the other person to just be the receiver and of course relationships are Dynamic and things change over time but I just don't know how that I don't know how that works if this person is in a prolonged state of discomfort or a prolonged state of emotional need how who are they going to turn to you know they're going to have to find Outside sources and that's not fair for them who has been so such a deep provider for the other one when they've needed it so I just think it's a very complicated kind of issue and it really requires people to show up because if you're gonna do the exclusive thing then you got to do it you know you you have to do it as if there are multiple people living inside that person even though it's one person you know you got to attend to all their things that's your job and the vice versa and I just you know it's it's an interesting this again because again because we're friends with fedra and she comes on and we talk about this you know she's in the poly poly lifestyle she has you know different engagements with people I don't want to speak too much for her but she has people who she just not just but who she texts with you know or might hang out for coffee with and it's always a sexual thing you know but there's emotional intimacy there you know and then she has primary partner or primary Partners where it's it's deep connection and when stuff comes up it pulls things up and out of her and she has to to work through it no different than with you know you and a you and a primary partner or me and a you know what I'm saying it's the same is the same things it's just more frequent because you have more of these people that are yanking at your yanking at your chain you know interesting in some ways because there Variety in your experience right but it's it's work that's a different answer to how you solve that dilemma right yeah you know it's like a different solution of how you get sort of the uh exploratory needs met or something right what do you think about this question of like attachment and and uh like separation divorce these kinds of things right you know when I about this again like we talked about different times but my folks were from a different generation of people where you just didn't do that right and I wonder about this you know the culture is evolved right or at this point where there's going to be a lot of like kind of like separations in this way and I wonder like what this does to people's sort of whole internal attachment mechanisms you make these deep bonds that maybe last for a certain amount of time and then you know it's a really weird situation where that you know eventually because you know um ultimately you might feel like no I have to go out and explore the world in some new way and I can't do this in the context of this thing so the exploratory aspect starts to dominate pull you away from what otherwise might have been the secure thing that you built with this person and then things like kind of shattering right I I don't know what that does I'm just throwing it out there I don't know the answer and it's from my own life actually like I've lived a it's one of those things I do wonder about you know what happens then you know um you know what kind of like what kind of attachment things are people going to have to work through from that when these things are going to get broken because it seems like it's going to be kind of typical for how a lot of people are going to live now right yeah this thing for a while and then that will break and I remember like when I was training martial arts I was talking with one of the guys there who was sort of one of the more senior instructores American guy and uh we were studying like Japanese martial arts shok Khan and he was saying you know it's so wild for he was I remember he was talking about it's so wild for me to look at my son because he'll be with someone for five or six years and then he'll just break and move on to the next break and it was sort of like so weird for him even think about that I'm like well that's kind of like more of a normal thing now but I don't know what that means in terms of like the underlying sort of attachment aspects within people and I don't know if you have thoughts on that or not but I wanted to throw it out because it's obviously it's going to be a big problem for a lot of people are going to be listening to this figuring out what to do about that right yeah so I feel like this I was thinking about it when you're talking and I feel like there's a couple things that are that are factual right divorce 50% right yeah that's the rate so what are people doing about it or not they're involved in it so that means that 50% of the people are staying together staying married I guess we're talking about marriage okay fine I know people who are all over the Spectrum I'm a child of a you know what would what someone would consider a broken household which is obviously a dated term right yeah um but there is still some stigma you know but not as much because it's more commonplace so that's one 50% but the other part is that like if look at the corporate environment today promot like multi multiple promotions within a company are it's less common yeah yeah yeah whereas before just like in traditional relationships you would find one job and you'd stick with it for your life you know and that if you changed a job or change a career was like a big deal you know like changing a relationship about that is my dad had that world viw even when he was advising my brother and I don't I'll let you get back to your flow but it was interesting what you're when you're saying that old dude and he was like I worked my way from the mail room up to the top you know from the lowest thing to the more Higher White Collar better playing kind of gig did that thing yes old school you know and then I think for like yeah maybe my brother's done some of that but you can't count on that anymore right no in fact it's the opposite now in order to make the big moves you you're not forced to but you definitely have to look outside of the organization for sure like it's almost kind of like well let me see if they have what I want here oh they don't okay cool well I'm not going to wait I'm going to build my resume and find where I'm going to go and I'm going to make uh diagonal moves you know laterally diagonal laterally diagonal know to different companies until eventually you get yourself in a sea Suite or whatever whatever it is that you're wanting to do and I feel like that is um representative of relationships and people are aware of this you know and and I think the and that is what it is so you have to be sort of adaptable you know I when I use the word tactile you know but you you have to be a tactician in that environment because that's how it is so you have to in order to adapt want to be successful you have to know that on on so that's the other that's kind of like the other part but I think in in the grander scheme it is and it speaks on society which you know uh foreshadowing we are going to be talking about Society very soon because we live in it and we are not in a vacuum so don't worry we'll be dunking on your favorite idiot idiots soon um but to this this is the way that it is and so I think people are far more adapt to doing this so like whereas your dad and I talked with one of my clients about this and he's like 65 at this point 66 he said when I was growing up he goes you worked for one maybe two companies your whole career he's like I know my kids are probably going to work for a half a dozen companies and might changed their career a couple times he goes but me growing up that was it wasn't unheard of but it was a rarity and that's just the reality of things today so I think things shift a little bit more people's attention spans are are shorter so they're more willing to entertain the idea of change you know things are questioned more it's not like you don't have two you know two kids a dog a house white fence and then you're you're good you just settle in that the world is far more connected there is a lot more um cross-cultural communication intentionally or unintentionally even from different countries so people have different wants different you know needs because of those wants and therefore they're willing to accept stuff that was not culturally acceptable not that long ago but the one thing I could say about culture is that it's constantly changing and so in 20 years from now I I don't know that we're having this exact same conversation it might be something uh slightly moved one way or the other depending on how Society you know reflects what it is that is happening now if that if all of that ties up into a box what do you think about like the security needs around that though when you start getting this kind of thing right like even when we were doing the retreat we had some interesting conversations with this about you know people who've been through divorces and separations and things right and okay so kind of feeling of like even in what you're talking about otherwise there's this feeling of like uncertainty over everything yes right I could get I could get downsized right and I could get downsized in my work life I can also get downsized in my home life yep too and then when you get back to these attachment needs you start thinking okay so how do people really feel that inside I guess I'm throwing that out to the audience too look at that and saying okay you know we're all doing the best we can but when I turn inside and really look at that for myself you know what do I actually feel going on in there do I feel those those attachment insecurities and anxieties it's it's an interesting question to me it's interesting Eric because on one hand you would think that the external uncertainty would drive people to want to find security yeah and therefore there would be maybe an increase in longer term relationships or an increase in marriages strictly for I know that shouldn't be this way or whatever but like financial reasons well I think I know people who like again within the confines of like the attachment Theory thing you know you do have this pressure to find some partner that you feel like okay I can be secure with them right and some of that is security right build a life that will make me feel cure right it's not right no but given that the divorce rate is still 50% I don't know that that's necessarily any stronger than it was now obviously I'm using that stat as a measurement for long-term relationships there's plenty of people and marriage is not as in fashion as it once was you know you could totally cohabitate it's not so I realize for those who are listening and you're like hey that's a bad stat yeah I know because I don't walk around with like relationship stats just it's hard to know which way it would go because maybe when you're not married it's easier for people to separate it might actually be more than 50% otherwise because you start to get all property things and all that kind of stuff going on kids and whatever yes legalities you know Uncle Sam gets involved in your life exactly it probably gives you more incentive to stay on some level right on some level but I think people are far more okay with change because the uncertainty is so prevalent so do you think that is kind of like a good thing because it allows you to challenges the challenge the fears that would be involved in the in the attachment thing that's way or another spiritually you're gonna have to challenge this some way or another right fears have to be challenged and overcome otherwise they don't resolve right correct doist like TCM people that says you're gonna have your curriculum of your life it's kind of a Dos phrase and you better like come to terms with these things when you have the opportunity to do it so if it's fear you're going to have to deal with it so anyways I didn't mean to like think about like so what do you think do you think it helps people deal with more of the fear of this you know by kind of you know get tossed into the the situation you have to learn how to cope with those things you think there's a positive side to that Eric you're asking a very deep existential question that I am not sure people think about to be totally honest I I mean yeah no I mean people say hey what do we think about this because it's not it's not small it's not small so this is a qu right so this is a very deep question so people who are listening you know you I think you have to ask this question you know you really have to ask this question are are you actively consciously intentionally trying to see feel uh I'm not going to say isolate but I'll say identify your fears and then if the if the answer is yes then you know how do we address them and this fear around security insecurity definitely gets talked about I think in in some kind of maybe like modern spiritual you know ideology if you want to call it this because they talk about abundance right the universe is abundant they talk about this it's like a thing you know in the manifestation groups right and so they're trying I think in some way to address the idea of scarcity whether it be fin Financial emotional or otherwise you know and so they're they're trying to address this deeper fear but the the is the is a larger percent of the population doing that my guess is no I mean they might do it people do it I think with their friends right they talk about things or you know in in hushed tones yeah yeah but as a collective there is not a there isn't a ubiquitous and ubiquitous IDE ology of self-reflection that pervades this or many cultures in around the world and I don't think nor it never really has or it ever really has specifically and that is left to the people who are introspective philosophical intelligent um and who are in a place that they are secure enough that they can have resources in order to move inwards so I'm talking about self-actualized people or people who are on that trajectory right so on like maso's hierarchy of needs that sort of top of the pyramid and in a yogic sense these are people who are existing above transaction people who are existing a little bit above daily uh struggles because if you're struggling for your existence you these kind of conversations don't these are this is like get out of here we don't even have time to talk about this I have to work two jobs to feed my my children and to keep myself in this apartment or in this house because we're on the borderline just one little thing about that because I've always had a little bit of a skeptical part about this little interpretation of maslo right one tiny little thing about this right which is that I think regardless of where you're at you still have those questions in your mind right you could be like in the worst like economic Straits we've talked to people with this and it's not like they don't existential questions they do they're think you know so anyways that's my one cave on that you know what I mean you can get people in all kinds of situations and they still you know we did one of our first episodes we did was Victor Franco he's in a concentration camp he's still asking questions yeah that's my one cave on that thing you know what I mean the question is resources and time is a resource Camp you're [...] you're think you know what I mean right what what I'm saying is that like people you know in in the situations where they might not have the time to even give themselves the opportunity to look at those things and I'm just thinking about people I know who I have talked to about this kind of thing they just say I don't have time for that now granted we can say what you mean to say is it's not a priority right because that's the truth but I could say that most people most people fear what they don't know and most people probably fear their fears that's just my interpret I could totally be wrong but that those kinds of things have a potential to uh draw at your psyche when I believe that the the whole of society because of what we talked about with all of the uh Necessities that you have to input yourself into in order to survive that this it's and it's stressful the uncertainty of your relationships the uncertainty of your job status the certainty of the change of society which is always there but higher now I think um you can't be pulled down into these kinds of thoughts now you and I might argue with this Eric and say well if you were to alchemize those fears you would not be trapped by them as much as you are right now if I would you agree with that are you saying you the people people kind of push them into the unconscious or something like that I can't deal with this [...] this is overwhelming to me yeah I can't emotionally handle this on the okay right that's what you're kind of talking about yeah and that the so therefore they put it away and and so they might be aware that it's there but they're not going to go there because their life is already stressful their life is already difficult so the idea of then taking your attention taking your focus and essentially meditating on fear will pull you into potential place that you don't want to be in that you might not have the tools to get out of and then with the people who rely on you you're doing this kind of work that you are probably I'm not going to say unprepared to do because I do think people have very deep and innate wisdom if they just allow themselves to go at it you know but they're probably going to be scared that they're going to be in in an emotional place where other people can't rely on them and if they can't rely on themselves they are now going to feel insecure and they cannot feel insecure when they're I'm going to go back to the word I used before the provider you know or a cog in the wheel from from a into a larger wheel and so the the potential downsides to looking at these things for folks is very steep I feel like and they are just not going to allow themselves to go there and then when time moves forward now I'm speaking of somebody specifically who I'm uh very close with and I we have he have this person avoids these conversations I can tell you for sure okay okay why because of time it's been so many years of avoiding so many years of just trying to focus on the next day going to work taking care of the family blah blah blah blah blah that you're talking about years and years and years of things that have been like you said stuffed down or we could say avoided not worked on you've gone this far you're not probably going to go there which is unfortunate to me in my relationship with this person I'm discussing it's hurtful because I want to see this person uh emancipated from so many of the anxieties and fears that they walk around with but I know that there's nothing that I can say or do that is going to do that for them if they don't want to do that for themselves so this entire uh Soliloquy I won't say diet tribe this entire Soliloquy is born out of my uh interaction with one or two people who are elderly at this point and who have avoided any deep conversation around this or anything else for the last [...] I don't know 10 years for sure and it's disapp you know it's disappointing to see but I I I feel I feel this very very deeply yeah you know in the in the stages of the path the sort of Buddhist philosophy stuff this is um preciousness of human life and then the reality of like mortality that none of our lives is going to last forever and so you know you don't want to look back on things with things that you didn't face because then that'll be regret right or and some of the da stuff and probably Buddhist stuff too the idea would be that you're just G have to face these things at some future life anyways right so that does try to Prime you to be a little bold to face these things in the now you know I guess what fascinates me about this as we get to sort of the end of this you know yeah five minutes or something but then some of this becomes potentially karmic okay I understand what you mean now I mean it's not just like this is my attachment issues from this life it's this is my attachment issues that I'm like carrying on I haven't resolved these things right now if you're an like evolutionary psychology kind of model like the way the attachment Theory thing is you say well all comes from when you're younger right things happened in your life but it is true that sometimes you look back in people and you're like well I don't know where this is entirely coming from right it's not just from this life sh you might say oh no this is your lineage right caring on through that route as a Buddhist person you might say oh no this is the karma associated with your spirit that never got resolved right either way something hasn't resolved yeah no matter where you want to Source it you want to take back through the lineage or if you want to take it back through your own collected karmic seeds you kind of use that metaphor in Buddhism right yeah and that doesn't you know then there's a real incentive to resolve these things when you can right so I mean that has its own set of like interesting questions I thought we should just throw up before the end of the episode too because that's something worthwhile thinking about too very good point and with the idea like okay strike strike when you can right you gotta like take that right you know when the opportunity is there maybe try to resolve these things when you have the chance to do it you know also yeah go ahead yeah they say strike when the iron's hot and I you know me Eric the Iron's always [...] hot you know what I mean like yeah timing patience and I I get it but also I don't know just don't well now and get it over with right some things you can't wait on you know some things you can't wait on so then like you know I'm I'm trying to pull this all all together in my own mind audience to do it do it because it's not an easy set of questions then you get this idea well I have to be able to challenge my fears yes and that's part of the attachment Theory you know I can't be so dominated by the because a lot of this stuff in the attachment Theory ultimately boils down to some kind of fear yeah right whether I'm avoidant or whether I'm anxious or whatever it is there's some kind of fear underlying this right these kind of very Primal emotions right in our nine things that will [...] up your life episod this is like number one this feeling of like oh can I can I I feel these insecurities which are natural to feel yeah right and uh even from a spiritual point of view if I'm always anxious worrying about my security it's like not that easy to meditate it's hard no right so there is a value in having some kind of sense of security but then there's the other side where I have to deal with facing whatever my fears are around this and then where also do I get my dynamism so I don't know like I really did ask these questions kind of deep this is kind of the Capper of this for us I put a lot of kind of personal thought into this over the years and then as we were doing these episodes this is always very thought-provoking and yeah we had conversations about this again even over our Retreat so I think because I didn't feel like so tied into like having to be an exclusiveness mindset I didn't have that mindset anymore right which probably had a lot to do with like being a Zen person the da person a t person I was like well I don't have to follow the codes of the world that I live in I can kind of write my own rules so I had thought in my mind and I thought well realistically speaking I have to acknowledge that we all have our like our need for some kind of sense of security and stability right we're y needs and then for me it was okay I guess the young needs would be like my acknowledging that I can have connections with other people that can be deeply meaningful in a way that I don't have to worry about whether this violates some sense of like exclusiveness or something right right how I tried to solve it personals just to throw it out to people are listening right and I thought well you know to the extent I need to challenge my fears I'll try to do that right whether those are fears of wherever that fits along that Continuum but I I wanted to throw it out there because it's not easy questions and so in the end I thought okay this is how I tried to do it you know definitely saying there's no like perfect way to do this right right and then you know other people I guess will try to figure out in their own ways but it's it's a quintessential like deep set of issues of how you try to get these different needs met you know and then the way it's like Beyond even the sexual sometimes when you think about this it will be like well I have to have like a sexual relationship for this with this same person for like 40 years I was kind of thinking like that when you're a a teenager and you first start like uh jerking off you don't think I'm gonna get married and I'll be with that same person for 40 years this is so hot no one thinks that when they're a teenager no one has that thought yeah whenever he want to do relationship counseling do not go see Eric no one has that thought no but it's sexual imprinting too no one has that thought right correct correct yeah so no you can see me it's totally fine I'll respect wherever you're at it's totally fine so was like Eric we've been married for 25 years you were a teenager you were sitting there fantasizing about having sex with the same person for 40 years Daniel come on come on bro come on bro no for sure no one has that thought no no definitely not fanty so anyways I that's this Esther Parell being honest yeah yeah I hear that anyway so but it's beyond that you know when you start talking about spirituality it's like how do you how do you have these Zin needs met in the sense I can have enough security I can work on myself spiritually right yeah those anxieties and I also can have some freedom to explore the world yeah and I can be you know have that freedom like you know and that's true whether or not you're going to be an exclusiveness person uniqueness person whoever you are yeah I think challenge I guess right that's it well that's that's the question yeah uh security exploration and attachment how does it fit for you yeah I think that's right that's it well Eric that's that's the perfect place to leave it thank so much Daniel thank you so much for being here audience thank you so much for tuning in uh if you've made it to the end of the episode you are in the top five% of attention in the world matter of fact in the galaxy or the Multiverse even um because they all have Tik Tok it's made its way through to all the universes actually it's very strange all those waves are going to all the universes that's right we're melting them with their stupidity going what the [...] happened in this other Universe yeah man I don't understand that one but um you know as always we appreciate everybody tuning in uh subscribe like whatever hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com leave a comment in the YouTube do your thing uh Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast if this is your first time what's up if this is your 10th time or 100th time or whatever episode we're on what's Kraken we're creeping up on five years and um oh yeah last thing I want to say for the three people who are left here uh covid five years man oh yeah wild five [...] years five years yeah remember where you were at that day when that when things got shut down Eerie how similar some things are at this particular point so there's our society work SCS of that have never really fully healed right never I'm going to repost my covid PTSD episode because we definitely ain't the same you know yeah anyways Eric thank you audience thank you and for Eric this is Daniel because you guys in the next one deuces a