[Music] Thanks for tuning in to Jinatra, spirituality with a twist. Uh we have one of our contributors today with us, Dr. Rory. Rory, thanks for uh tuning in. We have a special guest today who is a friend of Rory that I will allow Rory to do the introduction to. Rory, please take it away. So, I have the great honor of uh introducing today uh one of my brothers, I can say I'm proud to say. Uh his name's Nathan Orchard, a living legend of of jiu-jitsu, mixed martial arts. Uh I've gotten to corner him a couple times. He's uh I think he's has the the most appearances in like EBI, combat jiu-jitsu worlds. Um he's been around forever. combat jiu-jitsu world's champion. He's been a finalist like six or seven times at these things. It's probably more. Yeah. And uh and uh and not also is he, you know, such an incredible warrior spirit. Um you should feel his sand out pulse, but uh I still don't know what that means fully, but sounds cool. So, but uh he's just he's got a great heart, too. And he's he's uh he's a good person and um Oh, stop it. You're making me He's really Well, yeah, he's really trying to get to the truth of things. So, that's a trait I really admire. Awesome. I do love truth. I can't think of anything actually more important to me. You know what I mean? Really? Like, what else is the point really? Yeah, I agree. Rory, thank you for that wonderful introduction. That was uh Nate, that's a high bar, man. Exaggerated. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. Um well, so we are in the in the kind of like the beginning stages of our series on kind of like cults, social psychology, um like I say, intellectual epidemics, if you will. And uh given that Rory had mentioned that uh Nate had a very interesting upbringing and um you know as he was involved in kind of like the Mormon church and and then that you know I think is we'll let Nate tell his story but was you know an aspect of him being involved in like the jiu-jitsu community moving forward and in the you know his now current life and work and everything else. And so we want to uh we want to hear about how he came up you know how how his experiences were and uh see what kind of extrapolations we could uh we could take from that. So uh Nate tell us a little bit about like uh you know your upbringing where'd you grow up kind of all that you know. Sure. Yeah I grew up um in southern Oregon uh Grants Pass Oregon and yeah I grew up you know Mormon born into the the LDS church and my my parents very active. I grew up very very active in it. Um, you know, it's it's it's funny because I don't think too much about that life anymore, you know, and then there's like the time when boom, I became like into the martial arts uh for for life, you know, and so I really left the Mormon church and I started really questioning my reality when I was 16. And for I chewed on it for five years until I was finally like, o, okay, I can like let that go, you know? Um, and it did go hand inhand with my with my martial arts and and all that sort of thing. But, um, you know, my dad was a longhaul trucker and so he wasn't home all that much. And and you know, I think that, uh, the way I got into martial arts is just honestly out of fear, right? I was maybe felt unsafe in the world and wanted to feel safe. And I think that's what drove me to do martial arts initially. And you know, I think I just have like some warrior DNA or something. I don't know. But I've just always liked that sort of thing. The Ninja Turtles ever since I was, you know, super young. And um yeah. So, but over the years, I guess it's kind of alchemized, right? And and that like where I started off from fear, it's kind of given me my whole life. So, you know, it's all good. It's cool, right? So you've you've alchemized that aspect of you know uncertainty into uh an internal drive towards transformation. I mean, you know, that's what it seems like for me when I because again, it was a place of like wanting to feel safe and in that I trained a lot and and then I realized like when I was doing jiu-jitsu and martial arts, I just didn't have anxiety or depression. Just great. I realized it was when I felt the very best all day long was when I was training. So, I was like, "All right, well, cool. I'm going to train more." you know, and you know, over time and and then I I realized, you know, negative thought patterns and you know, I reprogrammed negative and this is something I need to like do again. You know what I mean? Because it slips, but these negative thought patterns and so the first thing you got to do is like realize that and then have a pre-programmed positive thought, which for me was like getting my hand raised on the mat, right? So, I spent a lot of time training and then when I noticed negative thoughts, I would just visualize getting my hand raised on the mat. That was just my go-to to just override any negative thought. And then it turned into, you know, my my living and what's, you know, helped me travel the world and provide for my family, you know. So, it's turned into something really beautiful. Now, it's something I don't do out of fear. Like, that's gone. I mean, not not really because I I'm still like the a survivalist at heart sort of. I don't know. I just literally always been like that. Yeah. So, how old were you when you left the church? Yeah. So, like I said, when I was 16, I started just being like, hm, things are weird. I I think initially, actually, I distanced myself from the church because of guilt, right? It's just like there's a lot of guilt for just being a human um in in religion often times. And so, that made me kind of like separate myself. And then and then you start really questioning, be like, you know what, I've never actually thought for myself before. So, I'm going to do that. I'm gonna clear the slate and be like, "All right, what do I actually think?" And is it this? Is it that? And I wasn't Mormonism, you know, once I cleared the slate and started over. Um, yeah, I was like, "All right, I actually didn't know because nothing made all that much sense." And then I went to Aliens, 10th Planet, Jiu-Jitsu, Nibiru, so on and so forth, right? It just kind of goes from there. And you know like that kind of stuff made more sense to me than anything. And I mean gez you know that rabbit hole goes goes crazy from there. I mean it all is from there really. So in so you're 16 years old and let me because you know because I think myself and like probably most of our audience doesn't know many people who were you know who were in any kind of you know church like that a Mormon church or some other kind of I think they're would you say that they're fairly like closed off in terms of Oh yeah. Right. Yeah, you know, they're like really friendly people, but they're very um like sheltered and like yeah, you know, they are oppressed in a way, right? Because again, like you I mean there listen, there's beautiful things about it, you know, like for one, like, and who cares? I don't know. Everyone's got different situations, but like one thing I've realized was a blessing for me was like never seeing my parents drink, you know what I mean? Like I just never experienced that. I just never saw my parents get stupid in that way, you And so that was that's cool, you know, like there was definitely positive things that came from the Mormon church and actually religion at large, right? But to me, religion is just like training wheels. Like you you got to take off those training wheels and they teach you good things to start with. But you know, the old you use the boat to cross the river, then you get out of the boat and keep going, right? You know, so Right. I can't bash on it too much, but it is weird. And there's different branches that are It is a wild It is a wild world. Sure. Yeah. And I think that's that's a part of the understanding of it from being on the outside is is having somebody who was inside, right, to for not so eloquently put, but I feel like at some point, especially when someone's a teenager, right, your hormones are kind of coming online and you're looking at whatever some object of your desire and you are at the first time aware of your own kind of how you present. you're aware of your appearance because you might find out at least I did that not everybody who I liked liked me which was really disappointing. Now we all are not as as handsome as Rory is who can just you know roll through the world and snap his fingers but you know like we have to deal with some maybe loss or not loss but like rejection and things like this. So then now we have to kind of look at ourselves and say hey is this how I want to appear? Is this does this do these clothes fit me? Am I comfortable in my body? Um, and then and then you maybe even have some more kind of existential questions about what is the world? Where do you fit in it? How does this make sense? And so, and this is a genuine question I have and and and no and and throughout none of this, I know we didn't talk about this before, but throughout none of this am I being uh facitious or belittling in any way. So, don't don't ever take that as as this. What did they teach you at all about thinking for yourself? Oh, no. No. I mean I mean but really no one teaches kids how to think for themselves. Even schools, right? Like logic is not taught in schools. It's just not, you know, at least from my experience and what I see. Like true critical thinking is actually not taught. M you know again it goes it goes deep as far as um you know whatever controlling powers don't want people to think for themselves necessarily. So, you know, I mean, again, and plus I never questioned it because I was just everyone was telling me the same story from the moment I was conscious. And so, why would I question it? And I piece it all together. And there's like a lot of cool stories, too, of battles and wars in the Book of Mormon and like some really cool and interesting and you know, lots of things you can even learn from, but um and so, you know, it keeps you in for a while and then you just really Yeah. hit a point where you're like, I don't know, something's just off. Yeah. And I because you know I don't like I don't like being told I'll find out later. I I that's that's a copout. You know I mean in logic that's a fallacy basically. You know what I mean? So uh yeah if that if if we can't if we can't apply logic and our direct experience but you're supposed to like make your whole life decision off of these things. I don't know. Couldn't do it. That was it. You know, plus honestly, I I always wanted to be a soldier. Actually, I wanted to join the military and be go special forces and be so I didn't ever really even want to go like the Mormon boy way and go on a mission. Mhm. I always planned on just going out and being a a warrior, you know. And then and then I was 17 years old and I shattered my ankle playing football. 16 fractures, foot 180 degrees backwards. I mean, it was just oh god, it was hell. Yeah. And and I said in in all the pain and the surgery and I said out loud, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. And then I was like, damn, I can't be a soldier. I can't go kill people for any, you know, like I just I don't want to go hurt people. Which is ironic because now I became a, you know, professional martial artist. But, you know, the idea is to not hurt someone but still beat them. You get what I'm saying? But yeah, so that that was that was a eye openener for me there. But yeah, that's a deep that's a deep one, Rory. I mean, same same question to you because I find this to be kind of a fascinating thing. When when do you when do you remember first having the kind of like seed of questioning, you know, how old were you? What what did that look like? Because I think I think this is an interesting question, you know, like for just people in general, right? So, so thanks for for for sharing that, Nate. But that that brought up something good. It's like what at what point do we go, I don't know, man. Actually, who's asking the question? What question do I even want to answer, you know? Yeah. I'm not sure about religiously. I'm I mean, I remember like Sunday school back in the day, but the first thing that comes to mind is like just with my own family and then uh and you know, being like, you know, different family members and sort of like emotions being kind of leveraged against you in a kind of way. like, "Would you come to the store? Do you want to come to the store with me?" And then I'll be like, like a little kid. I'll be like, "Do I have to?" And then be like, "Uh, no, but I'd really love for you to." And then I could just sense that, um, I could sense someone was trying to use my emotions to force me into a decision. And I just had no problem saying, "No, no, I'm not doing that." And so, yeah, and that was something my dad even said as a in my um in my uh like a wedding speech. He was like, "You could dress him up and, you know, make him do these things, but you could never tell him how to think." And uh um but that said, you know, I do still get caught up in my own cults and all that. So, yeah, for sure. That's true. Uh yeah, there's there's a light side and a dark side to everything, right? Yeah. I could say for me, I don't know if that it was a questioning thing, but I think Nate, it was maybe an observation of a dichotomy, you know, kind of like how you maybe you were saying Rory, is that like you're doing one thing, but you're not totally totally in it. Even if you're dressed up, you're just like, "No, you can't. I'm not I'm not all the way in. You know, I'm in the water, but I'm still breathing air, you know." Um, I remember being, you know, a young kid and my mom's, you know, my mother's side of the family, very, very church oriented folks. They're like Orthodox, kind of Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox folks. And so sometimes we'd be in the church and you'd be doing Sunday school. And then, um, my parents got divorced when I was quite young. My mom would take us to different kind of temples and we would be in, uh, you know, doing the Sunday school but in a temple. and instead of reading some kind of Bible, we would read Esab's fables. And I just remembered some of the like the the differences and similarities in the stories that were obviously geared towards kids. Um, and but even as a kid, I was like, "Oh, this is obviously a kid story." You know, these two rabbits hiding in a tree. I don't I don't remember any of them, but I just remembered that like that was geared towards us, but in a different way. And the lessons that I got from Esop's fables seemed to me to be a little bit more um encumbering of life than the stories that came from the Bible which were geared to bring you back towards a very specific kind of viewpoint. And it was the the juxtaposition of those two things that got me to be like they're feeding me the user in this case two different narratives. one that feels more, you know, I could say now like allegorical versus the other one which is kind of more linear trying to guide me somewhere and I did not like being guided you know like I knew that at that time I did not like being guided. Um, so, so that's kind of for mine. But Nate, let me ask you, do you do you feel like as you sort of, you know, as your kind of like your own independence came online, if I could say that, when you were like 16, 17, um, do you feel like you had support from the people around you that you could go to, you know, people in your community cuz you grew up in this thing? You know, did you feel like a kinship with anybody in particular that you could go and be like, "Hey, I don't know. This just doesn't feel right. What do you think or did you have to kind of leave that community in order to be able to get some of those that that support? Oh, I yeah, I cut it off completely. I mean, it was just like, you know, um friends from school or like uh guys I played football with or wrestle, you know, stay at my friend's house, like no, I I had it was two different lives. It was like Mormon Nathan, not Mormon Nathan. And they just didn't blend whatsoever. So it was, you know, again, I yeah, I started a whole new life, you know, and it was a whole new everything and uh but that's fine because I again I was so into sports and I was so close with my friends and all that back then that, you know, it all worked out. But yeah, I know I left that trip, didn't even look back, you know, it was crazy. And how And is your family still involved? Um that's not really not mostly. um a little bit here and there, but it's hard to know exactly everyone's it's a touchy subject and and honestly as information comes out, you know, it gets it gets harder and harder to stay in the church, but man, when you have built your entire life around seeing the world a certain way, it's terrifying to consider the idea that you don't know what the hell's going on anymore. And so some people literally stay in I think because it's just easier. Oh, there goes. Gosh dang it. Little technical difficulty, but we're back. Yeah, sorry about that. Um, so what was I? Oh, I was saying that people it's it's so terrifying to consider that you don't um know how to see the world anymore if you give up on this belief that you've had your entire life. So, they just stay in because it's easier and more comfortable. Yeah, tough. But, you know, I've also seen people I don't want to give their story away too much or anything like that because it's all very sensitive, you know. Um, but I've seen people that I never thought would open their mind and they did and they really have even in much older age been like, you know, close family members be like, wait, something's not adding up. And then they change their whole they they do they are brave enough to step out of it and you again you become alienated from your old you can't even talk to the people that you used to go to church with anymore because there is such a disconnect you know you it's hard to even be in the same room because there there's a giant elephant in the room that you can't talk about and be like yo you haven't considered these things you know and they don't want to hear it so have you had the opportunity um Nate to talk to people who were consider considering leaving the church or have left or been in been in a part of anybody's process like that. Not to not to sway them, just to be kind of like I'm I'm happy to chat with you because I could have used maybe somebody like myself when I was younger. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. No, I've definitely been there for people. I mean, I've, you know, I don't want to tell any I just like to ask questions, okay? So, I'll just ask them questions and it just leads them down the road themsself. I don't have to say anything or point anything out or do anything. It's just, you know, and so I have seen very close people go through it and me be able to walk them through the confusion of being like, damn, I saw the whole world, this model of the world, and now you feel lost if if you lose all your frame of reference like, okay, how do you navigate the world now? what is going on? Mhm. You know, and and not to say I have any answers, but like I've done years and years and years of seeking and and I have found things that help me make sense of the world. And you know, again, across the board, even Buddhism, you know, I mean, just like basic philosophies that just make things make more sense. Yeah. If you have, if you don't mind sharing, what are some of the like if you like to ask people some questions? Uh maybe not even necessarily like bound to the church, but just like in general, like are there are there some things that you like to ask people to get them, you know, even like students of yours if they're wrestling with something in their own life, they come to you as their coach or their you know, their professor, right? I think that's what the in jiu-jitsu that's what that's what you're called, the professor. Yeah. I mean, I don't No one calls me a professor. I don't you know term. That's it. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Professor is is usually what people say. Um you know, I I One of the things I just like that I think of myself is like or I will say is like I'm not interested in God. I'm interested in reality because God is too confusing. There's so many gods. There's so many it's you know some people who believe in their god so much they'll literally kill other people for it. Yes. You know and so it's it's too confusing. And so I'm like hey I don't actually even want to talk about God. I want to talk about existence because even God exists and sometimes it's fun to personify existence, right? Like what would the God of existence be like? You know, this vast being, you know, and so so you know, any god that you could perceive objectively, they also have existence. Existence is fundamental. Everything else changes, right? And so it's just like even the gods are there what everything in movement we change but it's just like the the cradle of everything that changes is existence itself. Existence is the only unchanging. So when you start kind of going down that road it changes people's thought about whoa whoa whoa hold on now I've been you know you zoom out one step and that just does a lot. Yeah that's that I like the way that you put that Rory. How how does that fit? And Rory's here just hanging out, you know. Um Rory, I mean, I know we we've kind of talked about it numerous pieces, but how when when you hear him talk like this, and I know you guys probably talk like this on a regular basis. Um, how did you know when you hear that like what what what comes up in your mind when he starts saying like existence you know what especially with your you know all the years that you've spent studying with the with the Dohan the Dowist Dohan clan like how do you what what does that bring up in your mind you know well it pumps me up it's probably why we're such good friends because it's you know existence that's like pure being and so I think of like the Dao so for, you know, the unchanging way, the unchanging Dao, like that's just pure being that everything springs from. Do you know what I mean? And so ideas like God, I love that. And you know, so saying like God, yeah, it's the same thing like thou called Dao isn't thou. So to there's so it's such a loaded word, God. So you're evoking like so many things with that. But you know being still and knowing be still and know that I am God. It's that just that beingness is God, you know, and I love that. And I love the the utility of asking questions to get someone out of like these deeply grooved kind of thought patterns. I was I I was thinking about this actually the other day. I was thinking about how many of our thoughts are just like patterns that we've woven that are just like our gotos that don't have like a real understanding beneath them. Mhm. And so I was driving with my wife and I was thinking about like just even in like uh biology like different concepts I had memorized but maybe like I wasn't totally sure of all the mechanisms beneath it. I just had a very like you know uh the uh mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. So I thought of that and I so I asked my wife what does the mitochondria do again? She said it's the powerhouse of the cell and it's like yeah that's the answer but you know the understanding is alive you know like real thinking is alive and like connected with God and it's it's it's a part of it I feel like is this seeking quality like seeking for the truth that really turns you on. Yes. There is a um so now you brought this up and then and then Rory you kind of just reinforced it for me because this is a question I was going to ask and and now is a good I think it's a good time. There is a uh as a as a fellow seeker there is it's not an unsettledness but it is a little bit it's like yes I found something that's brought me closer to what I believe I want to feel it and I want to have insight at the same time. Like that's the thing. Sometimes you you'll learn something and you're like, "Oo, that hits." Right? And then other times you're like, "Oh, wow. That's awesome. You've got to get this thing." And I think the when when those things align, that's when you're like, "Oh, that now that's kind of a permanent thing. I've created a new groove, you know, something that transcends one or the other." And then it's kind of both, right? The uni union of both. But you brought this up, Nate, when you're talking about this and then Rory just said it. The idea that people might be uh we could say fearful or we could say patterned or we could say shamed or maybe we could say complacent in their choices to remain inside of a community a or maybe even we can do extrapolate one more level uh when they can remain locked into a thought pattern or thought patterns that are based on larger philosophical foundations. Right? So we can look at this religiously and say people have been in a religion for a long time. Maybe they're not fully questioning it. They're just kind of going their thing. Or we could even say definitely politically people are locked into their things and therefore they're just like, "Okay, give me uh what's the next thing I should think about. Okay, cool. Perfect. Yeah, that totally fits my narrative. I knew I didn't like that person anyways. That guy sucks." You know what I'm saying? Or do anything, right? I mean, whatever. Um, I I want to talk about this a little bit because I feel like this is, you know, so I've done some I've read a little bit, you know, we've been talking about the the kind of social psychology of like cults and things like this, but I thought that that was a really interesting point because it will challenge if you are not complacent and if you know and that that's a really nice word, but I I want it to be insulting, but it's not really insulting because complacency is not insulting, but I would like it to be slightly insulting. So if you're not insulted by that, please be and take offense. I would like to to hear what you think about like this idea on a larger level that it would be difficult for people to change longheld the the the difficulty of changing longheld beliefs in the in relation to their identity because ultimately who are we? Yeah, we at least from my perspective, we are who we tell we are who we say that we are. We are who we tell ourselves who we are. So if I ask, you know, Rory, who are you? Well, he's an acupuncturist. He's a he's a this. He's a husband. He's a practitioner. He's a businessman. He's a jiu-jitsu player. He's a okay, all these other things. And Nate, I do that. You ask people who they are, they're going to give you a list of things that they do. Yeah. Or list of things that they learn. But I But that's not the question. The question is who you are. And so I I want I'll give you I want to give you some time to talk here like in your transformation I guess of yourself where you started to question okay reality then you had this kind of like injury that shifted what you thought your future would be. You had to make a a move towards a new kind of place for yourself which led you to question what you had been taught and then what you were going to learn. So I guess with all of those all of that as a leadin like I you're nodding so I want I will let you take it over from here. Yeah. I mean again like I learned that there are basically three levels of reality. There's the subjective level, the objective level and then the absolute. And from the absolute well let's just say subjectively is I have an experience you know like I might see red differently than you see red. That's my subjective experience. Then objectively we can agree this is both the desk. Now objective reality also gets argued about sometimes and so that's confusing and difficult whatever. But then from the absolute level of reality, there's kind of not a discussion to even have because it's the absolute and there is no separation from anything, right? And so you when you talk from that level, you again there's no talking. It's just silence is the real truth. You can the moment you start talking it's beautiful and it's fun and it's interesting but it's like the Dow you cannot say the Dao. What you know the the how does it go? The nameless if you can say it is not I can't remember. The Dow that can be named is not the true D. That's what I'm trying to say. Thank you. Exactly. Right. So So you said it. I didn't say anything. Yeah. And so Okay, cool. So let's jump back one level and be like, okay, well then how do we make sense of objective reality? If we can't talk about the absolute, sure. How the hell do we figure out what the hell's going on here? you know, um, well, I think that first of all, like you said, complacency is not a good thing, you know, because it means you're not evolving and evolution is what keeps you alive, you know, right? So, when you and and that's in martial arts or sports or just anything, the world, the technology, everything's going crazy and is going fast enough if you don't change with it. That's the key word, change. Plus, again, change is an, you know, immutable law, right? You can't not change. So to resist change is where all this just pressure and grind happens. It's like no, you got to we you are change or your your experience is nothing but change. So the moment where you're like nope, got to figure it out. Well, you're not changing anymore. You're dying. You know, really. So that's the thing is people just need to truly be aware of like okay am I if I was presented new evidence would I change my mind that's that's a good question to ask yourself right and I think that some people want to hide behind belief and and belief and faith are two different things right like yes belief in first not knowing gosh dang it okay yeah so belief and faith are two different things. Belief infers not knowing. And I I got this definition of faith from from a great friend of mine, a teacher, um Eric. He said that faith should be a respectful and loving trust that is subject to verification, right? And so it's just like, okay, cool. You know more about jiu-jitsu than me. I'm gonna listen to you because I have faith, but I will put that information you gave me through the verification process and that will lead me to knowledge, which so faith is what muddles things. And so if we're not actually constantly putting things through the verification process, there you go. That's it. That's that that's the formula. If you're not if you're done verifying, that's probably not good. Yeah. never be done verifying. That's the unsettledness of the seeker. Yeah, that I mean which is a little bit frustrating because it would be sometimes we feel like oh I wish I could just know but it's like you can't. I mean you are what you are searching for. So it's just a silly game we play. Um anyway it goes it goes crazy from there. You know what I mean? Like yeah I get I don't get it. I forget. I remember. I find it again, I lose it again. I just keep Yeah. Yeah. Rory, let me give you a give me let me give you a minute to to jump in here because there's so many like Dowist and Buddhist uh terms that like come up and just in different language. Definitely. I think you know we're so I mean we talk about the earth element being the center of the four war and on the you know it's the the middle burner that we digest our life through these narratives and so we define ourselves in terms of others in terms of this uh through this earth element and So we cling to that really is like our identity is these uh conceptual schematics of reality and so it's actually funny I was I was uh listening to a Jeffrey Euan lecture today on the naging too on like the whole microcosm you know that old chart I do most people probably don't and I'm not going to pull one up to put on screen but yeah Yeah, just to summarize this one point, um there was there was one line on it that said the key to enlightenment is through your through the level of basically the middle burner. So through like being Shiao and you know free and easy at your conceptual level and there was like some type of like weaving instrument. So it's like weaving together of your conceptions of reality. And so in order to to find enlightenment, not only do do you have to change your conceptions, well, I guess you could say changing your conceptions is changing who you are. Yes. As a person, I think that's really what it means. And then eventually being free of conceptions. There's no you're not defining yourself in terms of other. You know, here here's something that that I'm I'm thinking is is like, okay, if you were so sure that reality was a certain way and then something completely out of pocket happens, like aliens come down or a zombie apocalypse or who who knows what crazy weirdness, you know, AI takes over and there's the robot wars. I don't know. But it's just like if you are fixed in how you think reality should be, I mean, you know, you're you're going to get thrown a curveball. And so, one thing I'm always saying is like, I'm kind of ready for whatever is the weirdest, craziest possible thing that can happen because I don't know what's going to happen. I have I mean, you know, it's hard to know. Um, but but if you were really stuck in a certain belief system, you're going to be pretty sure that it's going to play out one way. And so when it doesn't play out that way, you're going to have a super hard time adapting and evolving. And you know, imagine if you believed so much in a certain narrative that aliens didn't fit in whatsoever and then one day aliens bloop down. You know what I'm saying is you better be just open to even the craziest things you could never imagine because otherwise again you're losing that adaptability and that ability to change how you see the world. So, you know, you can't act like you know what's up. So, all right. Yeah. Something I wanted and and you've kind of been giving this these answers as we've been going on, but I just wanted to kind of like make it make it succinct. So in this thought experiment, there is a a young person or an older person, we'll just say a person who is locked very firmly into their belief system. Okay? And maybe that's somebody who is was was in the Mormon church who you might you might have met along the way. Maybe it's a family member who you don't see eye to eye with um politically. Maybe it's somebody who is, and this is not as popular as it was a few years ago, but like is really deep down into like the conspiracy theories, like super deep. You know what I mean? Like just all the things. Okay. Totally. But their their thoughts are hampering their ability to connect with other people. their thoughts are inhibiting their own expression of their own uh individuality in life, which I find to be probably the most detrimental part of any kind of cult, regardless of whatever it is, is that inherently in in your as a requirement for your membership, your own individuality must be yielded. And that to me is probably the the biggest um most sad part about that about whatever is that in order to be a member of us, I need your I need your personality. You get to keep whatever little pieces you want of yours, but like I'm going to tell you how to think, talk, act, and be so that you are more of a representation of what I think we are than who you think you are. And that to me is a is an unconscious uh robbery of authenticity. Uh and it's an unconscious uh robbery of one's ability to evolve, right? To question to change your conception, to to question the belief that we have, right? To put it to to a test. So my question to to Nate and or Rory, you know, either one of you guys based on this, but we'll start with Nate is like, how would you approach somebody who was mildly approachable, you know, on this? Uh what were some of the things that you might I know we talked about some questions you would ask before, but I want to just bring this because I feel like it's not an easy question, you know. So no. Well, I Okay, I think the first thing is to be truly honest with yourself and say, "What do I know and what do I believe right there?" You know, because really what can you know? What can you know? Because even sometimes an experience you have can be wrong like when you see uh a snake in the grass but you realize it's just a garden hose, right? So sometimes we are even wrong when we directly experience something, right? and in all kinds of different situations, altered states, who who knows what. Okay? So, just got to be careful of what do you know? And you know what? All the only thing you can actually know factually is that you're having an experience. Boom. Done. Beyond that, everything else is belief. And that's belief if we hold on to it like it is the truth. Because again, what is the truth? You can only know what the truth is of what you know and the only thing the only thing you can't know period ever is that you're having an experience. You know, I mean, look, I feel like I am experiencing my desk right here. But you know what? This thing is just a blob of frequencies just vibrating at different like it's not actually even there. It's not solid. So you know again maybe it's too abstract of an answer but to pull it back to you know being more grounded is like again so if you think you know this is a desk no you believe this is a desk you have built a model of it boom in your mind and now that's how you're experiencing it you know so again no one knows anything and anyone that says they know anything other than they're having experience you know they're talking about what they believe And that's subjective, right? To to some degree, right? I mean, like you can't tell people believe different things. And we believe that a desk is a desk, but it's actually not even solid. So again, I think we just hold on too hard to our ideas because they make us feel safe. They make us feel everyone just wants to feel safe and feel like they have a grip on reality. And I think that sometimes that that neurosis of needing that control and I'm talking even from my own experience, me too. I'm not saying that I don't. But what I'm saying is like I don't have a grip on reality because I can only perceive this much of the light spectrum or whatever. Like there's so much going on that maybe I should just keep trying to figure out what's going on with an open mind and not butt heads too hard with anyone because no one actually knows [...] [Music] So you have a uh an approach of building a bridge more than reorganizing someone's viewpoint. So So I hear that and I like that. I'm going to just ask for just a slight clarification. So again, the scenario is so I I understand how you think, but you're you're you're interacting with somebody who believes that they know Okay. Okay. And and their the belief in their knowing is is verifiably detrimental. Okay. So like again hard time socializing, hard time interacting with people. Life is not you know what I'm saying? They have more enemies than friends. They spend even we could say more time posting online. Their random thoughts, hard time finding work. Like you you know what I'm saying? Like very kind of rough around the edges. and and being smooth isn't necessarily like the best. Okay? Just because you have a lot of friends doesn't mean you're a great person. Just because you have two friends doesn't mean you're a loser either. So, I'm not judging someone's life choices. I'm just saying like this person looks like and feels like and appears like it's difficult for them because of the beliefs that they hold are so you know not just outside of society because the tantric path those who have followed their own the beat of their own drummer have you know like roomie for example right always like to use he was outside of the outside of the world as a left-hand path he's a tantrica and a lot of the Buddhist monks and a lot of the Buddhist practitioners the yogis they do weird things. They cover themselves in the ash of dead people. You know what I'm saying? They sleep in the uh in the in the graveyards. You you know what I mean? So, I'm not poo pooing a different path by any way, shape, or form. But what I can say is that from you know what we've done and what you've experienced is that like there are some some groups of of thoughts some groups of ideologies that prefer to keep people locked into those uh ways of being that I believe to be detrimental and that people have to kind of break out of those things. And so as someone who has broken out of those things, who has questioned things and who has uh a multi- layered view of reality, right? Like you talked subjective, objective, and then ultimate on the subjective or objective level when you are dealing with people. Yeah. We are we're in a world of interconnectivity, right? And so, so approaching them from this and trying to like maybe bend someone's mind again, assuming there's an opening, you know, how would you how do you feel like you could approach them that would be an authentic way for yourself? I mean, yeah, a lot of thoughts. I mean, one of them is like honestly I don't actually try to change anyone's mind because I don't have anything to tell them. That's I don't have a better answer. I just have a bunch more questions, you know, like where again like whatever we can go down rabbit holes of anaki or aliens or whatever like all I have are more questions. I can't give good answers or a better way of seeing reality. But you know I mean again and you can only help someone who wants to be helped. So if they yeah if there is a window you know one thing maybe I would ask someone is like you know uh kind of like you you will know by their fruits right like what are the fruits of what you're believing are they bringing you closer to people or pushing you farther away like what are the reactions you're getting from people maybe you care about right like I think that could be a better sure question to ask than anything is like you know is this bringing you happiness and peace or is this bringing you turmoil oil. Like I'm not trying to tell you what to believe, but what I'm saying is are you happy? Are the people in your life happy? Are we is it cohesive? Like, you know, because I don't think that the truth should be divisive. Yeah. I mean, because the reality is the non-dual reality. So that is the opposite of being divided. So like let's look are we dividing ourselves, you know? So are we focusing on what we don't believe? Can we focus on what we all believe? Because I believe that every tradition is basically there is one ultimate truth. And I feel like that one ultimate truth gets alluded to but maybe covered up in dogma and other things too. But you know simple truths like like love. We all know what feels good and what feels bad. Period. Like we all know. And if you don't know, maybe you're not human, you know, because like I heard someone say, like any normal human, if I saw a child that I don't know in the middle of the road in danger, I would go to save them. Period. Anyone would want to save another person's child. Like it doesn't matter if it's yours or not. You see a child in danger, you want to save it. And so if you're not thinking that way, you're either sick or in sometime, you know, there's some [...] up [...] going on, you know, but like you know, but like we we no one should want to hurt each other. So again, like what are the outcomes of our beliefs? Yeah. And they're causing damage and pain and sad like maybe we should question it a little bit. Yeah. I think that's that's a really great question. What are the outcomes of our beliefs? That's that's really that's a that's a good one. I thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Uh Rory, you were you were nodding your nodding your head quite a bit. I wanted to hear what you know. Yeah. I just I was thinking about you know what are the fruits and and basically just referring back to the the feeling you know so if someone is really you know even myself as someone who you know part of my job is like teaching about really far out things and math and I really have great reverence for how far logic can get you and thought and but I really make most of my decisions based off how I feel, you know, and sometimes how I think can influence how I feel. But if I was going to try and talk to someone who thinks that they know something, I would really try and touch their talk to their heart, you know, and and and see like he like Nate said, like are you happy? What are the fruits? like you know how long are you are you willing to sac are you willing to be right to sacrifice your happiness you know and I think there's there's a real power in in you know we have this common saying of a heartto-heart but I think you can speak to someone's heart and that's the most powerful way to really change someone's mind I don't think that you'll make much headway trying to make someone wrong or or less correct, but just providing them with, you know, just pointing out how much better they might feel in a different scenario. Yeah. No, that's great. I think I think that's that's not it's interesting, you know, because do you know, we've been podcasting for man, it's almost 5 years. We're we're very close. um to doing this for five years. And so that means I've been able to, you know, be here and and and do this and ask questions and be asked questions and have on people who I don't know and get to have what I believe actually are heartto-hearts, you know, in this way. And so I'm I'm I'm I I feel both of me, both of pieces of myself, like like Rory, I feel like the heartto-he heart stuff. I like to ask people deep questions, [...] that has meaning. Uh, but then I'm doing like Nate's piece, which is like questioning. Let me question to see what's in there, you know? Like I want to know like let me let me get in there and and and then also let me share so that like you don't feel like you're the only one who's doing it. Like I'm I'm I'll be willing to put myself out uh on a limb and I feel like this particular mode of communication um now, which is obviously very well integrated into society. I think most people listen to some podcasts at some point, you know, and so it's a it's a really wonderful way for people to express their own individual wisdom, you know, and things that they have put through the ringer, right, Nate? that you know stuff that you have uh what in Buddhism they say what cut and burned and uh whatever polished you know that it's still gold after you've put it through the test after you you've tested your beliefs and now it's a real thing cuz you're like okay I I did all the things that I could to this piece of information or this experience or whatever and it is now it's still here it's un unfased actually it's stronger now that I have tried to you know make it more malleable It's just become more firm. Uh, and not firm so that it can break, like more firm that it's in within within me. And it's changing the way that I think, feel, believe, and experience the world. And, uh, I'm just always happy to to do this. I'm always happy to to have good people on and and have these discussions. You know, I never know where these things are going to go. I feel like we're in I'm in a semester now of like uh social psychology and but like a social network is a group of individuals who are holding up that network. So, in one sense, we're talking about cults uh on a on a large scale, and we wanted to talk, you know, a little bit about that, which is, you know, why we why I wanted you to come on here today to talk about that. But in a larger sense, a cult could be a community of of like-minded folk supporting each other and and like you said earlier, Nate, reminding each other of the layers of reality, you know, and of the importance of heart-to-he heart communication, the importance of questioning, and more importantly, the importance of communication, the importance of getting together with people and like listening to what they think. Because Nate, I believe you. When when you if you were to see somebody's child or just a child on the street by himself, let's just say a three-year-old, you're driving down the your street to your house or your apartment or whatever, however you're listening to it, and there's a kid in the in the middle of the road crying with the poopy diaper, you know, and it's raining outside, you are 100% going to stop your car and and grab that kid, cover them up, and look around for their parents. Nothing else matters. you're going to do that. And if you don't, you know, you said it, there's they're they're sick. And and I don't think you meant like, oh, they're they're [...] up, like they're crazy. No, there's something wrong. Like, there's an illness inside of that person. And yet, we can objectify other people's kids as, oh, they're bad. Oh, they're this or they're whatever because we removed their humanity from them. And why can we do that? Because we haven't sat down with them. But the hope the hope is that we don't always have to sit down with other people to understand and be reminded of their humanity because we all share the same identical humanity you know and even though it's a greeting of uh a good uh of salut it's a greeting in in Indian culture you know or or in in Tibetan culture but most of us yogis say it at the end of a yoga class you know in in the western culture the uh the word that is oh so cliche is namaste, right? Which is the acknowledgement of the enlightened or awakened version in someone else and they say that back to me. So then it's a awareness that I have the same thing with with inside of myself and this is the positive aspect of being in a community of like-minded folks. So um I just wanted to say thank you so much for for joining us today. Uh Nate, I appreciate it. Rory, as always, man, thank you for for coming on. You know, I'm glad that I found you randomly on a a CU course that I was taking and I'm glad to have um Nate on here with us. I'll give you guys just a minute or so. If you guys have any parting shots before we go, anything you want to shout out or or whatever, please please take the time to do that. Now, I just really quickly would like to say again, if you want to change anyone's mind about anything, maybe live such a happy positive life that they start asking you questions. So leading by example, boom, right there. You don't got to change anyone's. You just be the let that light within you shine and that is going to illuminate everything. That's all you got to do. Beyond that, do jiu-jitsu. Anyone, everyone. It's dope. It's it's amazing what it does for your mind. It's beautiful. Um, do 10th planet jiu-jitsu or otherwise, you know, whatever you got, go do it. You will not regret it. You will regret not doing it at some point. Hopefully, you don't regret that ever. But like, you know, that's how it goes. And Nate, where can people find you, man? Um, I mean, mostly Instagram. Well, you can check out nathan Orchard.com. Actually, I'm building my website and building an online curriculum. And, you know, I'm at the kind of beginning stages of I mean, I've got actually 80 videos now uploaded onto my monthly subscription. Um, it's called the Dead Orchard Society. I have a jiu-jitsu move named after me called the Dead Orchard. Um, or you can just check me out on Instagram. Um, Nate Orch10P. Nate Orch. Yes, sir. 10 P. That's right. Okay. Yep. And that's the number 10 and the letter P. That's right. I'll I'll find Planet. Yeah. And I I'll uh I'll I'll you know, when I do these clips, I I'll I'll tag you and everything else that we do for sure. Um but yeah, awesome. Thank you. Do you have a YouTube? I do have a YouTube. Just Nathan Orchard. It's got a skull. Apple is my logo. It's pretty pretty dope. Okay. All right. Well, thanks, man. We appreciate that. Thank you. And thank you for having me here. Seriously, I had a course. It's just cool to have these types of conversations. I love them. Yeah. Yeah. No. Well, no, you're you're welcome back anytime. If there's uh anything you ever want to uh discuss or or just shoot the [...] for whatever, you're always welcome on with uh with myself and uh my fellow doctor here, you know. Uh Rory, any any partying shots for you, my brother? I just want to say thank you again, Daniel. Thanks, Nate, for coming on. We'll have to have you again. And we didn't even talk about martial arts. So, we did not. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm pumped to hear you talk about that. And Nate's actually one of the only people who's met my uh my Dowist teacher and I really hyped them up and I'm sure people are like, "Yeah, yeah." But I'd love to hear hear his take on his experience with it. So, maybe another time. That's a powerful one. That's for sure. Yeah. No, that would be great. Yeah. That I love I love that. There's We need stories of good people. There's a lot of stories of [...] people, you know. We need some stories of people who are who do exactly what you said, which is uh uh inspire others by their beingness, you know? That's that's like a a deep thing to aspire to. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, come on and and and we'll do it again. Um awesome. Well, speaking of Yeah. Go ahead. I was just saying speaking of cults, I just remembered something uh Master Song used to say was um he would tell me, "I can only trust you if you can trust yourself." So when you can trust yourself, then I can actually trust you. And so I thought that was very I'm gonna chew on that one for a minute. Yeah, that's Yeah, it was like Yeah, cuz being it's like a cult in itself and so there's these, you know, you want to conform to it, but at the same time it's, you know, keep your individuality. Mhm. Well, when people are teaching you methods of indivi individuality and freedom, you know, you're probably in a good uh in a good place. When people are teaching you are are teaching you conf confirmation, conformity, right? Then that's a that's a that's a good thing to question in my opinion, right? That's like you had questions earlier that you would ask people like, you know, what are the fruits of your actions? And I would say are the people arounding are the people who you're surrounding yourself with in terms of influence or teachers are they are they giving you techniques for liberation are they giving you techniques so that you can trust yourself or so that you could be independent without having the necessity for me I want to teach you not to need me that's I want you to be your own sort of your franchise. You are your own you know thing. I don't you don't need you you can want to be around me and you can want to be around your teachers or your whoever course because it's nice to get this kind of feedback but ultimately like I want to bring you and help you to get to that place of silence so that you can connect with the same thing that I'm connecting with and live that you know not just only have I give your power away to someone else for your connection essentially. Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. teach you how to plug in without me without using my uh you know my outlet you know. So awesome. Well guys, thank you so much for coming on. I really do appreciate it. Uh audience, thanks for listening. Uh thanks for watching whatever you're on. Uh please make sure to uh comment, subscribe, do all that kind of stuff. I don't care if you comment really to be honest. Just subscribe. It helps us out. You know how this goes. Uh we're fighting the algorithm and so you know we believe in the message that we have been doing. We don't ask for money from everybody. We don't have advertisements turned on. I don't need to talk to anything else because I'm sponsored by my [...] self and uh we love it that way and that's how it's going to be. So, we just want to help get the things that we find to be useful and inspirational uh us to out to other people is really kind of like a measure of counterculture uh influence actually. So, that's kind of like the mission. Uh but if you have any questions, comments, concerns, or complaints, that's another C word. There's some other Cwords that I don't want to say either. Uh, but feel free uh, leave a comment in the YouTube, hit us up at jynantragmail.com or hit us up on the gram. The Jynantra podcast. Verori and Nate, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. It's so smooth when I do it. Peace. Peace.