Hey Bill Guners, those of us like our spirituality with a twist. So we are in the midst of doing a deeper dive into Christianity and sort of the different subtypes of Christianity that were there from the very beginning. We got into doing this as we've been talking about because we've been doing this. We like to do things in series. So this is our little Christian history, Christian philosophy series, and we're going to talk today about the Gnostics. So we're at like one of the the key spiritual points in talking about the great Gnostic tradition. Uh we got to the whole idea of doing idea of doing it because we've been our overarching series, the never- ending story gets the old movie, right? Has been uh

America, what the hell? And you know, part of the problem I think if you want to diagnose this would be that diagnose it would be that there's just sort of toxic versions of Christianity running a muk. So you know our way of approaching it was like okay well let's talk about Christianity and we'll all have a chance to think about it. It's ups and downs and different permutations and variations and we'll walk away with better understanding. So gnostics for today and we've had little gnostic talks here and there but this will be maybe a little deeper conversation about narcissism. But before we start, we'll do the same thing that everyone asks you at the start of everything like this, which is to like, subscribe, send an episode to a friend, write a review. Uh, you can help out Jin and Tantra in the dreaded algorithm which is trying to act like a demi-urgeic speak to crush us all. But anyways, help us out. And uh, you know, it's a labor of love and we really appreciate everyone who listens and everyone who can give us a shout out. Thanks so much. All right. You know, Daniel, before we get into it, one of the things that has been interesting for me just to like as a meta conversation, we like to be a little meta about these episodes before we dive in, is that I think you could talk about the things that we're talking about and just give like a five minute hot take, but our thing has been more like, okay, the things that are important to talk about, let's really try to unpack them in a more deep way. So I was thinking like over 2025 we started talking about okay you could sit around and just do a bunch of episode like little tiny shots about how manga is a cult or something or you can go and say well let's look at what a cult really is and because I think we're an educational podcast we're trying to do that a little bit deeper and I'm glad we did that stuff and now we're into this idea instead of just giving like a fiveminute thing about the bad sides of like Christian nationalism or something we can dive a little deeper and explore it a little deeper and I'm I'm glad we're doing that I don't know if you had anything you wanted to say about that.

Yeah. Um and I hope it doesn't turn but it doesn't turn the ship so much but yeah I do. And you know Eric and I lean definitely more socially progressive for sure. You know I think fiscally I don't know. I I care but I also like whatever. Let's just be responsible with our with the general money. That's that's it. I don't have any other policy details other than that, you know, and the unfortunate part, you know, about I think saying where you end up falling on the spectrum is that you inevitably alienate people who don't either think like you or label you as something else. I would like to think that the things that we are sharing are illuminatory for those who would be on any side of the spectrum, right? And so on one hand, if you know all of this, this is a a historical review. If you don't know any of this, then this might be enlightening from a, you know, historical perspective. But it's not just about history. We're talking about the history to show the relevance to today and the influence that it has on the culture. And it's not a matter of like picking something and dunking on it. It's a matter of saying what are the forces at play, the larger forces at play, where did they come from? How did they develop? And now what are they doing to our society currently? How are they involved currently? So we're trying to as we you know as practitioners we're trying to come up with a diagnosis but like any any organism it's complex. It's not merely just one single virus that gives you a cold or a flu and now you have a headache or whatever. It's a confluence of pathogens and internal chemistries that are all at play. And so when we look at this from a societal perspective, it's what are the economic forces, what are the religious and spiritual forces, what are the, you know, psychological forces, all of these things working together. And so this is kind of our way of doing this. It's just but we're doing it in a much longer series to give a a fuller context as to why it is that we believe that we're here. And in the midst of it, we're trying to give, you know, little ways to remedy as much as we can, you know, in the time that we have allotted for these discussions. So that's what I wanted to say. We are for everybody really. It's not a matter of do you agree with us or don't agree with us, you know, and if you don't agree with us or you do agree with us, please feel free to leave a comment. Talk [...] if you like. It's all good. We get some of those fun comments, too. And I'm all good with that. You know, love is always good, but hate means we're at least being seen. And I'm good with that, too, sometimes.

Yeah. I like what you're saying there. I mean, I really think it's trying to go and give a a a very full picture of things, right?

Yeah.

And like I think the things that we're talking about are relevant to the now. I agree with you. We're trying like what's the my one of my Bob Marley quotes I always share with students is like from the classic Bob Marley track Buffalo Soldier. If you know your history, then you know where you're coming from, right? Mhm.

So these things have roots and beyond just being kind of fascinating as a spiritual story, right? These roots are affecting us now. And I think in a communal level, but then also on an individual level, it's good to understand this stuff, right?

Think more deeply about. All right. Awesome. Totally agree. I think well said. Um all right. All right. So, one of the things about this has been to I think for me and I do see this as a little preamble to talking about the gnostics in more detail and I think it's a gnostic thing to do or I think it's a spiritual thing to do to break these things apart, understand how people think.

You know, there's a deep tradition in like Buddha Tantra land of going through and saying, "Well, do different kinds of people think." And then when you know how people think better, you're in a better position to understand their perspective, understand where they're coming from.

Help them if you can give feedback, you know, talk through things with people because you can understand where they're coming from,

you know, and there's a certain power in that. And this is a spiritual thing to do. Let's understand what this is about. The other part that I think is a little bit interesting and again has this Gnostic or you could say Buddhist tantra vibe is just to say there is no like real Christianity. And I've been trying to make this point a little bit each episode. Like so much of the argumentation now is like we're the real Christians or we're the real Christians. And there's like there's no real Christians in the sense it's always been super diverse. There's always been a lot of different Christians with a lot of different perspectives. And that is good in the sense that you can't even pigeon hole Christianity like you can't pigeon hole a lot of things. It's broad.

It means a lot of different things potentially to a lot of different people. And I like that because it gets it

kind of more ecumenical. We don't even have to be just let's choose those aspects of Christianity we don't like or the the versions of Christianity we don't like and we'll just hammer on those. No, it's broad. It's big.

Always meant a lot of different things. And that diversity of what it means actually has translated down to the present day.

Eric, can I pause you there for one second?

When you when you say that, so I because I know I have your notes. When you say there are there are no real Christians, what it's almost better to be seen as it's written. There are no real Christians like like emphasis on the real.

It and and when and I know you you said it but I just want to highlight it for people who are listening. It's not that Eric you're not saying there are no real there are no Christians. It's not that. It's that there is no like not one is not more authentic than the other.

It's not like oh these ones are the ones and the rest of them are not. That's not what you're saying it. That that's I mean that that's what you're saying is that like no they're all they all have schools that they come from and each school like in pretty much every religion says oh we're the best one. No no we're the best one. No no no we're the best one. It's like you know it's like a sports you know it's like oh the Brewers are the best. No the Dodgers actually are the the best actually. That's just you know

that's just a true fact that

right? So good for you if you're a Dodgers fan. And if you're not, that's just too bad, you know.

Yeah. Uhhuh.

Anyhoos, but yes, I wanted I wanted to highlight that because it, you know, the way that it's written is is almost more easily understood than the way that it's said.

Yeah, I get what you're saying, you know, and um and I think again, I think we were timely in this because I started seeing all this stuff. We we were going to talk about this and it's popping out. So, we're I if we were being Yian, Carl Jung, we'd say we're vibing with the collective unconscious. We're picking up where the waves are going,

you know, and a lot of it is like, well, we're the real Christians and these other people aren't. And that can happen on all kinds of sides, right? But when you really look at it and you I know you put on your that part, it's come up in different episodes. That part that's sort of like the critical spiritual thinker, when you really look at things honestly, let's look at this clearly and honestly like which is a virtue I think in like Buddhist tantra and some of these other things. Let's, you know, be honest. Well, there's not one. It ends up being that it's a plural polarity from the very beginning,

Okay. So, of the things that we've talked about so far, and we'll I'm sure we'll go back and forth in different ways about this. There was one group that was sort of called like the Ebianites. Quick thing just to remind we did episodes on this before, but the Gnostics are going to contrast with all these different people. So, part of it's figuring out like who are they in contrast with, right? So this is a beautiful tradition too in the sense that it's a group of people who didn't see Jesus as like the son of God but saw him as a prophet and that tradition continues on uh to the present day. There are people who think that way, right? Either in the Christian world or there's a lot of people who think that way who are called Muslims. You want to get to a lot of people. It's a lot of people who think this, right? And but the other part that's beautiful about them, and we were talking about this a few episodes ago, this connects back into the part that's like what you might call the Franciscan kind of vibe in Christianity, simplicity and charity, and you know, giving away your wealth and living in a way connected to life and the earth in a simple way. A lot of times when you look at like things with St. Francis, he's out in nature, right? And he's connecting to the world in this very immediate way. I don't know, Daniel, I thought when we were talking about that one, that one kind of vibes with you on some level.

I thought personally, I think you feel a connection to that in some way. Was I reading that right?

Yeah, totally. Well, and and what there's something else that you said, Eric, there are I mean, at least from my studies, and you know, you could say what what you've heard or what you've seen previously, but from my understanding, people believe that Islam was the ne the next step to Christianity.

Like Christianity was the next step to Judaism.

Yeah. That Islam was the next step. Like they're like, "Okay, here you go. This is the this is the evolution." Because you know in the Muslim tradition they very much revere Mary and Jesus like there it's not uh you know they're like yeah no those are good we like those.

It's weird if you don't know that you're kind of shocked you know someone who might not be familiar with that part of Islam.

You know I like Roomie so you know I read things from Roomie and Jesus appears in those stories all the time. He's obviously a person who's

presented with some reverence. Of course, he's not presented as like the figure that Christians would have him, the son of God and the only path and so on, but he is a weird person that that line of thought,

a great prophet continues down to the present day and like however many billion people are Muslim in the world,

you know, like that line goes on or in the Christian side of it and I wanted to bring this one up because I know I think it we were talking about it and I could just see how it resonated with you like that idea of like simplicity and connection, you know, uh chair ity,

you know, uh, uh, the connection to like nature and the earth. All that stuff really, I think, speaks to you. And I, again, when we did the episode a bit, you know, we watch each other's faces as we talk,

I was like, this is vibing with Daniel. This is the part that like resonates with you.

In a certain sense, I think your feeling of authenticity, like what's the authentic part comes from that almost, you know?

That really resonates with you. All right. So, that's one other group of people who are out there. Then there's this group we talked about called the Marcianites. And the weird thing about this is that a lot of people who are Christian are probably like this even though they wouldn't know that they're like this. But you know what Marcian did was he said, "Okay, there's the God of the Old Testament." That was something that had to do with Judaism. Jesus came brought a bringing a new vision of divinity, a different and new one. And so he actually rejected the Old Testament thing completely.

He said, "No, we're going to let that go."

That's obviously a tradition that has much more the feeling of like a harsher divinity, That's cool. If people want to follow that, that's for you. Do it. We're going to follow a new version which is going to be more based on like love and forgiveness and acceptance and we're going to flip the script. And the weird thing about that, what's that?

Hippies.

Well, it could be, but even like listening to like Bart Airman, who's one of the scholars I've been paying attention to,

was he was like, you know, a lot of Christians he talked to kind of think that way. They're like, "Oh, the Old Testament God, that was a kind of an angry God. We're not into that.

We like our New Testament God." The Marcian was just like, "Yeah, we're going to take this to its conclusion and just say, yeah, but a lot of people might be like unconscious Marcenites. They don't even realize that they are, you know."

So, it's worthwhile thinking about that. Um, we spent some time talking about the protoorthodox. And again, this is a important one because this is probably where the clashes are going to be

really majorly. I think if you were to diagnose something, this is the line of thought that can go toxic,

And these were like the Benedictings.

Yeah, we were making this analogous to the Benedictings when we were talking about them contrasted with the Franciscans on a previous episode. You had a really good observation that we had a couple of popes before our present Chicago Pope

Town Pope in the building. um uh Windy City Pope, but um uh you know

that Pope,

the Chicago thing, the Pope

um uh where you had um one pope call himself Benedict. Well, okay, you get the vibe of where he's coming from, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Much more orthodox,

kind of more traditional, a little bit more rigid. And then we had Francis, right? Was he the first pop quote from South America? I think he was.

I think so. Yeah.

Yeah. So anyways, you got a different thing completely, right? And he chose that on purpose. So sometimes you can even see where people are leaning with those kind of linguistic things. One of the things I try to do with protoorthodox and we're diagnosticians. So I've been trying to come up with little, you know, anagrams or something like that to capture this stuff. So I put it into what I'm calling the hype model

because that appeared kind of showed hype, but they're not hippies.

No, I know. That's why I like it. the irony of them being not hippies,

the anti-hippies.

Yeah. So, I was going to do this like in the context of one of the episodes we did before because the idea was that they kind of invented a whole bunch of new stuff. I just had a couple of comments on it. Well, one was the idea of the H and the hype model with they came up with the concept they're really talking about hell like super serious. Mhm.

And it's weird to go back in time to think people weren't talking that way, but I guess in the traditional world that they were coming out of, no one talked that way, right? You didn't have this idea that you're going to be forever tortured and damned and things like that.

No, we just thought it'd be for a few years.

Yeah. Then you get out.

Yeah. Then you're like, I'm good.

It's wild to think people weren't thinking about that at all, you know. No one was thinking about like an infinity of the soul or something. It wasn't on anybody's mind apparently. You know, no one had that metaphysical belief, right? You're like, "Okay, I'm going along and then you know, whatever you think, you know, you're going to pass away." But this concept wasn't there. But I had one other thing I wanted to back up on a little bit because I think it overlaps with a couple of these things and we talked about it briefly, but there's one other thing I wanted to point out about it from previous episode, which was just about the Jezebel story from the apocalypse of John, which is like the book of Revelation. And we talked about it kind of brief. I did the double back and I listened to Bart Arman's things on this. He's one of the biblical scholars I really respect. Just a very straightforward biblical scholar. And there's this bizarre episode that we did talk about where the son of man in the the the book of Revelation with all of its creepy kind of like 1980s heavy metal Iron Maiden [...] going on in that book. Creepy ass book. In that thing, there's a very weird part at the beginning where, and this is wild to think about, but where the kind of voice box of Jesus in the book is basically talking about like other Christian churches and essentially how the whoopass is going to be like opened on them too. And I wanted to bring it up because it really shows that if you go deep into that part and I think for a lot of the Christianity goes toxic, this part is really emphasized. You know,

when I listen to people who come from these very like orthodox evangelical and kind of aggressive versions of Christianity, the kind of stuff that's like in filtered has been like filtered through the White House kind of like this Christianity, which is problematic. Like I just don't see any way around it. I think it's a problem, right? Like has this thing where it's like hostile to other Christianities, you know? So, you realize how pervasive that hostility is. But in the story of the book of Revelation, you know, uh there's um another Christian group that's being like singled out of how horrible things are going to happen to them because they're not doing it right. And not doing right in the context of the book means you're not doing it right for John Deatmos, the author of that book.

You're not doing it his way, you're wrong. And it's not just that you're wrong. Horrible shit's going to happen to you. So, it's wild. The character in the book who's the target of this particular part, and there's like seven churches that get blasted. And in this one, the figure who's the the female leader in this church is named the Jezebel, which is like obviously a derogatory term for like a loose woman, right? And um the punishment for her is going to be that the Jesus figure of the son of man is going to appear and he's going to toss her onto a bed. And Amaran points out that people try to like dodge this a little bit by changing the translations in English. So he says people try to say hospital bed or sick bed with this but it's just a bed and then the men in the who are you know who are also being like punished are going to have sex with her. It's not obvious if the sex is consensual. Those men are going to be cursed and then the babies that are produced from those unions are going to be killed. M

and we talked about it like so a while ago and I just wanted to go back a bit cuz it's just astonishing when you look at this and if you're if like in these parts of the Christian world that are into this book you could see how aggressive it gets and how violent against even I wanted to point out even against other Christians it gets really aggressive and the bizarre thing about this is why is this terrible thing going to happen and we didn't talk about but I wanted to share just to like to see how these groups can be so aggressive aggressive and you can feel the root of where this comes from if you were really into this book. What the reason this this figure the Jezebel is going to be punished her crime is that they mention sexual immorality but what Aaron points out is a lot of times that had to do with like doing stuff that was too pagan. So here's what they're arguing about. I'll do the quick version, but I'll get your response, Daniel. But what they're arguing about is there was a debate of whether or not you could eat meat that was offered to in pagan ceremonies. That's the debate. And it's very esoteric, right? So some of the people, and this is something that Paul has to address, too. We're like, okay, these gods, we're not worried about them. They don't exist. At that time, there wasn't really any other ways of getting meat. the animals were being butchered for sacrifices, right? And then you would just get the meat afterwards. And so some people were like, "Okay, fine. We don't worship these gods. These gods don't even exist. Who cares?" And other people are like, "No, that's a bad thing to do because you're participating in pagan worship and you're doing idolatry." Is this an esoteric point? To my mind, yes. Can't get much more esoteric to that. And what Jezebel does is she kind of says it's okay to eat this meat that's being offered in these pagan ceremonies because it just doesn't matter, you know, and because of that infraction in this crazy book, she's going to be like potentially sexually assaulted, have kids, and have them murdered. And I bring it up because it shows you like the just the aggressiveness of that part of that tradition. It has that part in it. And when I listen to some of the evangelical people talk, you know, and I'm listening to people who got out of that world, they're trying to describe like you don't understand how aggressive it is and how hostile they are to other people. And if you can trace that back, you can kind of see the roots of that kind of hostility, right? There's a part of that tradition, not the parts that most of us would identify as being Christian, but that part at the back of the book, you know, that some people are latched on to that are really, again, like violent and aggressive, really violent imagery and really aggressive imagery to the point where obviously if you go back historically, a lot of people would be like, "That book shouldn't even be in the Bible. It's too awful. Just take it out." You know? Anyways, I wanted to share it because it's so striking,

you know, and you sometimes wonder like where does this aggressive Christianity even come from

if you like were really attached to that version,

you could see how that goes all the way back. There were people who had like that part too from the very beginning. Anyways, I'll throw it back to you, Daniel.

There's a few things. So, one, that book sounds a lot like the previous book in terms of the the god of retribution.

Right. and John had been a you know an end of end of world person already. So this feels very much in line with what his views or at least what I believe his views to be which is we're ushering in end times.

Mhm.

And so this is going to be very much fire and brimstone type viewpoints. You know you were either with us against us very dualistic you know literally heaven hell you know these kinds of things. Um, second, it's just interesting to me and not just that maybe minimizing it. It's interesting to me that we sell something that we have absolutely no way of verifying and we sell it with absolute confidence all over the place. You know whether you're selling punishment or whether you're selling reward, nobody really knows. Nobody really knows. You just make assumptions based on what it is you've heard from somebody else who doesn't really know. And this idea of like sacrificing what it is that you have now for what it is that is going potentially going to come maybe is just such a wild like it's such a wild uh I don't want to say con job. I don't know. I mean like you're here now. You're localized now. Your energy is in you right now when you're not you anymore. You're no longer you. Yes, you still exist in some way but you're not yourself. Like I this is like sort of a clarifying moment in my mind at this at this very second actually. You know

wonder about that kind of stuff too and like you can be cynical and you could say and we've had this part of the conversation too. Were people just being opportunistic? Were they being cynical or Mavelian or something and you could think of that aspect of things but then you also get the part like they're certainly writing like they really believe it like really really believe it. It just happens that it's kind of demented. I mean this h I mean I don't think it's

Iron Maiden song I ever heard you know like back in 80s metal or something. It's really violent

but it's not but the te the teachings haven't evolved. It's literally the same thing. It's the same right now. The thing same things are being preached. I was sharing with a friend who was going back and forth with somebody and I gave them uh a passage from the New Testament to share.

Yeah. Yeah.

And uh and I said, you know, you have to communicate with people in a language they understand. And people who keep themselves in one book or another on a regular basis, well, you know their language. So you just find pieces in there that that that speak to the counters of their point and you can have a very easy argument like it's just very quite simple. So that's a bit of a side. My third point was that this kind of the Jezebel story reminds me of our current uh situation, you know, politically with the uh famous island and that uh right that you know human humans can be viewed as different opportunities for pleasure or for pain or for whatever the case is, you know, and that that Jezebel story in particular, I think, is probably one of the most clear examples of that, you know, that you can be you can make a mistake or do a thing or something and then you are absolutely condemned for it and then the your progeny is condemned, which sound like some of the things that have been coming out of those reports, you know. Um I'm cautious to say the name because they have been uh pulling down videos some of which you know if you've mentioned some [...] So, you know, so to, you know, and everybody knows exactly what I'm talking about unless your head is underneath the rock inside of a sand uh in in hell, you know, but other than that, like it just Yeah, I don't know. It just it it seems very it's even though this is an old story and whatever, it seems really really connected to that current thing as we're all trying to, you know, wrap our head around how, you know, this kind of [...] could happen today. Well, I think like the P in the thing is like patriarchy and it's certainly not the case that Christianity invented patriarchy, but yeah,

it's important for this kind of Christianity to function.

It's very like like built into that,

And um we try to be very open and kind of acknowledging like there's all kinds of suffering amongst different groups of people. That's just being

right. So I think in one of the previous episodes we were talking with Fedra Shantel who was one of our great guests and we're talking about okay there's pro things that men are going through right

and uh so you know we were talking about that at that time but you know uh you can't talk about the now when you can't talk about protoorthodoxness without really recognizing how patriarchical it is and it's really important to control women and you know we've done this in previous episodes we have to do all of it again though it's going to come up at different times because it's just there you know there really is this commodification of women and this attempts to really corral them somehow

and subjugate them and it's part of this tradition right so sad but true right I mean real quick if you look at like this is the kind of things that narcissism is going to be framed against this kind of brutal kind of hell thing of the eternal torment the H the P with the patriarchy if I just double back in my little height thing the I kind of like ideology which I think also goes back to the story which is why I wanted to share the Jezebel thing because we're talking about tiny differences

and like ideology but the response of the person having whatever this text is and whatever motivated them to write this thing are like on these tiny points of ideology you're [...]

and like you're going to get [...] destroyed. God is going to come down and like rip you apart over these little ideological points. So anyways, part of this was this emphasis of ideology which I think in the we talked about in our episode in the historical world people were like what is this you know but anyways we get the ideological part going on in that right and indoctrination kind of the eye parts of this right the ideology indoctrination

so where you know other kinds of traditions and I I was thinking about you a lot with this Dan because you like to use the phrase like teachers and teachings you like to use that phrase the teachings And uh I think when you talk about like the teachings, you're talking about something that has some flexibility to it. You're not talking about something that's like has to be like indoctrinated and ideologically like harsh, right, and rigid.

And you know, I was just thinking about, you know, what does it be like to talk about this stuff? And I always think about, you know, phrases that we say and things that we emphasize. And this is really ideological and like doctrine error. and you know you disagree with me about how you're supposed to handle some aspect of butchery and like no I'm gonna write about how you're going to be destroyed

right

for this tiny point of difference about like a really esoteric thing right

but the other part Eric is that

is the uh and I wanted to make sure I said it right anthropomorphization

of God and that not only are you and so in case people don't know the word anthropomorphization is uh kind of a thinking process that attributes human characteristics, emotions, motivations or behaviors to nonhuman entities. So anything could be animals or you know cars or whatever but in this case you know the some the creator if you will.

That like you're you don't follow the these rules but I'm actually not going to do anything to you. I'm not going to punish you, right? Not me personally. And not that I didn't, not that I couldn't. Maybe I could do a curse or I could roll over there and and, you know, punch you in the nose or something like this.

I could take over an entire government and enforce my ideas on you by economic coercion.

Sure. Right. No, no, not that.

God is going to be angry with you. I'm going to put a human emotion on something that created me that is certainly not bound to the ways in which that I think or feel, but I'm going to limit the possibilities of what I say is essentially the endless and inconceivable. I'm going to put emotions on that being and then say that that being is going to be angry at you for these two things. Why? Uh be um uh because uh uh I don't know, but he's definitely going to be angry for sure. You know,

with the incredible Kinky Dink that all the people I'm pissed off, he's pissed off with, too.

Yes. Magic. Magic. How that happens.

Wow. I got Oh, my chair broke.

Yeah,

I got so animated about this. The chair cracked. It's not my fatness. That's funny. I'll have to look and see what happened with that. But anyways, yeah, it's like one of these things like it's exactly dead on correct, right? You're like, "Yeah, okay. So, everyone I'm pissed off with and I've amplifies the force that like is the creative force of the entire universe and it's going to be pissed at everybody I don't like."

That's a little suspicious on the surface of it.

Just saying.

Yeah. Okay. Just to to finish it up and then we'll get a little bit of nasticism. I probably got another 15 minutes or something that we can do so at least start talking about a little bit of nastics if that makes sense to you, Daniel. Yeah. Or or we just do call it right here and leave this leave that for next time.

Okay. Okay. Sounds good.

We'll Yeah. Yeah. The E is like the evangelicalism and the exclusivism. So, you know, the idea was that like you wouldn't have a problem being a follower of like multiple paths or multiple traditions. That could be okay. Even in like the Dowist world, I got my Dowist empowerment is into a thing called the complete reality school where you follow Buddhism, Daoism and Confucianism. And you take the elements of that that like harmonized together and you can do that and that no one's up in arms about that, right? So you can really see the contrast when you get out of this world. But within this context, it's like no, you have to only follow our thing. And it can get more and more narrow obviously as we can see like with our little Jezebel story. you can get super narrow, right?

Where we're only talking about like now like my exact thing, but it was like, no, you can only follow our path, our way of understanding the divine, our way of following things spiritually. And that's like so ingrained now that you assume that that's how people always felt because it's so ingrained. But it it's it's an invention. It it wasn't the thing that existed before this style of doing things,

And sometimes I think about people in the traditional world, you must have been just so caught off guard by that, right? By people saying, "It has to be my way or the highway, otherwise you're fucked."

Like that hardcore of a point, I guess, just wasn't part of how people thought. And it's weird to think like how to get out of that as like a 21st century person

because that's so part of how people

And I imagine this creates a lot of hostility for people who don't want to have anything to do with religion and spirituality because like keep that away from me. I don't exactly anywhere near that.

Right. Yeah. Like how is that

alienating?

How is that God? How does that make any like that make literally you're not you're you're pushing me away and then you're damning other people. Like this seems far more like witchcraft than it does like religious practice.

Yeah. Like it's Yeah. And you could see how it fits together in this bizarre way of like if this is how it is, well then you really are screwed. Our god really hates you. You know, it's your own fault.

And or it becomes a massive rationalization. And this has come up in some episodes we've talked about where this has like been the subject, but it is true. It's like we have to dominate over you for your own good because we're going to help you not get tossed into like the fiery pit of sulfur

by us taking over and then we'll force you all to follow what we say. But actually what we're doing is good for you.

Yeah. Don't worry.

That's a massive rationalization. I don't think it's a rationalization chart. I think people believe it. It just become indoctrinated in this way of thinking. Unless you really

do things as we're saying,

you're screwed. Everybody's screwed. So, we're actually saving the world from you and we're going to save everybody else from you who's not agreeing with us. Yeah, it's toxic. It is so toxic. And this ended up being the episode ended up being about this, but it's been my craw. And I don't know, maybe as we get to the very end of this, I mean, just so what you think, like I don't know how to be ecumenical about that. I don't want to be an intolerant person.

No.

I woke up this morning knowing we were going to do this episode and I was like, I don't know how to talk about this except in a way of like I don't think you can have things like this, you know, because they're so toxic and they're so hostile. You know eventually you know if you have this worldview it naturally leads to the idea like I have to take over and I have to declare war on all the other people who don't think this way and I don't know from a spiritual point of view if you can function in that way. I think that

has to go somehow.

I don't know how it goes but I just feel like

but I mean is that a fair thing to say? I don't want to be a dick about things and obviously I know family members who follow conservative paths and they're not bad people of course they're not right.

No,

they're people with good hearts, you know, but like when you get deeper into how this functions maybe on the higher levels of the hierarchy and how people think about these things, especially people who want to wield power over others and dominate others because they feel like you have to comply to their their vision. And I it's it's it's very jarring to me. You know, it's anathema to me, I guess you would say, if you want to use fancy words. It's I think it's toxic. I don't know what else to say about it. But again, I don't like to be judgmental either, but I don't know what else to say about this.

So, I was thinking about this a little bit earlier. Actually, I I think most people don't really seek a lot of power. They want control in their in their their localized environment, but they're not looking to grab lot power on a large scale because yes, there's a lot of people in politics, but not that many people who are running for that, you know,

offices in that way. That's, you know, there I mean, and yes, there's other ways to get power. I I realize, but that's the kind of the most direct way.

And so, I just don't, you know, it's a weird it's a weird thing.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what to make out of it either. Like if you look at like the present dilemma and we haven't done the official definition of Christian nationalism, but there's like a questionnaire. We'll go through it at some point when we do like modern versions of Christianity. We get to the end of this whole thing,

you know. So you can kind of say that there is a thing that's Christian nationalism. And when you go to, you know, the political party that like is so dangerous now, 80% of the people who vote for them are like in this mindset. So they've all crowded into this space. And I don't know how it feels to be, again, when you want to look at this from like a Buddhist point of view, I don't know how this what this does to people's spirituality when you're indoctrinated into a thing like this that has these elements within it.

It also has an element of kindness and generosity and all that. It's not It's complicated, but there is this part of this, you know, and um certainly there's people at the top of those hierarchies that are really aggressive and they want to like subjugate other people, you know, again, not just in macavelian ways, but for ideological reasons that I don't think are entirely just rationalizations of power, though they may be. I think it's because you really believe this stuff, right? And I don't do about that. It's like I I hate saying that something like that is just toxic, but I guess that's what I think. So,

yeah, I think so. I I had a kind of a brain fart earlier. I lost my but I'm I I remembered what I was going to say. I don't think a lot of people pine for power. You might want to be the boss at your work so you don't have to listen to somebody else tell you their [...] But like you know whatever if you're someone's boss someone else is your boss. It's just how it is. But in a in a larger sense, in let's say a church sense, a congregation sense, something like this, or in a you know political movement or whatever, most people are not vying for to be at the top. Some are, but far less are not. And it's the people at the top can only be there because the other people around them allow them to be there, put them there. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And it's and from because there's so the the pyramid the bottom of the pyramid is way bigger than the top.

Okay. Just think mathematically, right? So in order for the top to be there, it has to be stacked on top of the bottom. I know this is really obvious, but I'll make my point here in a second.

It's the complacency of the people in the congregation. It's the complacency of the beings at the bottom of the pyramid that allow the head of state, the top of the pyramid, the rogue whatever, the president, the pastor, the whomever to be able to do what they do. It's because people cosign consciously or unconsciously. Unconsciously because they've been programmed that this person is a trusted person. Therefore, whatever they say, if you don't agree with it, fix yourself, you know, or that they are now in in agreement with what this person says because they're they're preaching to some part of their conscious or subconscious that they have heard enough of it that they also believe this now too. You know, this sort of like aggressive kind of takeover of other people. But they can only do that because people don't push back. And so even a person who holds um a dissonant belief from well we're going to keep it inside of a church and keep it out of politics. Even if a person holds a dissonant belief within the church, within the congregation of that of the preacher or that of the church as an overall, you know, movement in society, that that congregation has a harder time moving forward with what those the the leaders want to do because even a single person is is not going to be budged based off based off sheer will or sheer convincing because somebody talks in front of a pull pit, you know, to everybody and now everybody's on board. But if you hold your center and you're true to what it is that you actually believe without anybody telling you, you know, this is what you are to believe, that is how you create resistance to things that you don't believe in. And I think through these that the that at least my intention and I think it is yours as well or at least a piece of it. It is our intention to bring this up and hope pray fingers crossed or whoever is listening as we want to invoke you know the the the musical uh cherubin and sarapin that could take our words and put it to the people who need to hear it. But it's our it's our hope that these conversations stoke the fires not of rebellion and people just to rebel because they feel like they're real Americans want to fight against the power, but it's because the what is being said on the outside doesn't vibrate with what actually is going on on the inside. And the way in which that you harmonize those two things is by expressing it. Is by saying I don't believe that. Like I believe in what you're preaching about the Bible, but I don't believe in your interpretation about how you want to go and and implement this on society and how you take not you, but the proverbial this one particular story and now you put those Jezebel glasses on and that's how you view everybody who disagrees with you. No, that don't work for me. That don't feel right. Cuz guess what? The rest of this book doesn't say that at all. Actually, you're just choosing this one piece and now that's how you now that's your crusade. But the crusades didn't work out well. You know what I'm saying? For almost anybody except for the ruling class. And news flash, we ain't the ruling class. So, you know, see who's around you and those are the people who are going to help you to support your own vision for what you want your church, your political party, your whatever to look like. So to whoever that's that's how I feel and that's how I hope that it can help in some way shape or form.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean in some way or another it goes back to a little bit to our episodes we did on called thinking. You're going to have a lot of pressure.

Break out of these things. And like

again like I do my little research for the podcast and there's a guy named David French who's a journalist and a lawyer who's a military lawyer I guess a JAG lawyer. And um and uh and like I've listened to him talk and he makes this point every time of how shocked he was when he didn't want to support, you know, dear leader that people turned on him and they were going to drive him out, you know, but he had what you're talking about too, the courage to be like, I can't follow this.

This violates my conscience and I'm not going to do that. So he did what he had talked about

with the psychology of this. He dissented,

you know, and he continues to descent and that's how you make your voice heard. And maybe when you get to spiritual parts of this, you know, as we get to the end of this all, that's making a statement of who you are karmically in the world.

Saying, okay, well, I'm going to make the statement that I'm not going to go along with things that I think are spiritually toxic or religiously toxic or don't follow the true teachings of a figure like Jesus. the way I understand that and I'm not going to just bend to the pressure, you know, because people are giving me the cold prickleys and being hostile towards me. I'm not going to do that.

And yeah, then you can respect that person, you know,

you know, he's very conservative. I don't agree with him about a ton of things, but I'm like, yeah, I get why you're doing what you're doing and you have integrity then. You have spiritual integrity and that I think that does make a karmic statement of like who you are.

I have a quick story. So when I was active duty in the military, I was very much a churchgoing dude. I went to Bible study. I went every week. It just was, you know, part of

you and I have never talked about this.

Yeah. So it was I mean and and honestly it was beneficial. It was beneficial for me. you know, when I was uh overseas, I was friends with pe very high up people, very high up people because we went to church together, you know, and and we're and we were having, you know, our our service inside of the this this little chow hall in a air base in Iraq, you know, maybe there's a dozen of us. And we would do some some prayers. We'd sing a little bit. everybody would do a prayer for somebody they knew who had passed away this week in you know in the missions and whatnot or people who were hurt or family members or whatever the case was. Um and so this but that had been I had been going through so many different things that I I I enjoyed the camaraderie you know so there is positives that come out of this and then when I came you know when I came back home and I was living here I ended up going to some like um church in Louisiana and you know nothing wrong with Southern Baptist it's just it's a different experience you know it's very loud and very overt and you Oh, just it's a lot. And so I remember I went to this one church with my my ex-wife and one Sunday and it was just super loud and people were throwing themselves on the floor at the altar and like it was just wild, you know. And I and I'm sitting back here and I'm just kind of like watching the thing just watching it happen, you know. And I'm again I've been going to church regularly now for a year, year and a half, two years. Um, and I remember the pastor came up to me and he was like, "What's going on with you, son?" And I was like, "Nothing. I'm just hanging out, you know." And he's like, "Well, how come you're not at the altar?" You know, like I forgot what word he used, prostrating or something else like this, you know, giving yourself up to the Lord. He's like, "Is there anything between you and the Lord that you have to share today here now?" And I was like, "No, I'm good." No,

that's very evangelical vibe to it, too.

Yeah. And like I just I like I never went back

and I just felt like very off-put by because it's my first time here obviously, you know. Um, and it was just a very weird thing, but that that pressure was there right away to like do what everybody else is doing cuz that's what we do here as opposed to letting you know like welcoming me in and then allowing me like I always felt far more spiritual satisfaction in these small intimate settings of devotees who wanted to be there and try and find soloulless in the midst of chaos than I ever did in any organized place with stained glass windows with one clear person at the front and then the rest were all being shepherded in their uh beliefs and understanding that's just you know

yeah all the pressure you know again just referencing back to the David French stuff again you know military person he talks about the camaraderie you know that feeling of community that's very and that's touching you know and that's healing you can see that's definitely serves a psychosspiritual purpose right

um but then he also realized that I think what shocked him and maybe he felt a little of this was that that was contingent in a way that he didn't understand

you know once he started to show uh again we did our social psychology stuff you know once he started to show that like we're not all the same. I'm going to deviate a little bit from where we're at. Then he realized how contingent some of that stuff was.

Definitely

was shocking for him, you know.

All right, Steve.

Okay. As far as it goes, just we didn't get to Nostics. Sorry, y'all.

We'll get there.

But we set it up with the idea like these are what the Gnostics are sort of in contrast to. We wanted to do it. So, this is really the point of contrast. And nasticism will be our real

kind of conversation about like mystical Christianity, right?

Yeah. And you can see where there's going to be tension between these groups, right?

Yep.

Awesome. Eric,

thanks so much for sharing that story. And you never shared that with me before. So,

yeah. Yeah, it's a good one.

Personal level, too.

Um, audience, thank you so much for tuning in. Uh, like, comment, subscribe, hit us up, uh, jinantragmail.com or on the gram at the jin and tantra podcast. Uh, thank you everybody for listening. As always, you know, we've been doing this for uh quite some time now and we appreciate all of the, you know, love and support. So, share our work. It definitely helps out. We we don't have ads, so you just have to listen to our babble and uh, you know, try and get something, try and get the nectar, the nectar out of what it is that we are saying. So, thanks for tuning in. And if you've made it this far, your uh attention is in the top 3% of all of humanity right now. And that number is only going to be going higher as uh short form content becomes more and more popular as time goes on. Uh but we are uh let's say fans of the long game if you know what I'm saying. So uh from Eric, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Peace.