[Music] hey fell teers those of us like our spirituality with a Twist okay so we're continuing on with this kind of stretch run of this long series of episodes we've been talking about a lot about love and relationships and all kinds of stuff like that we're in the final parts of this trying to end it on a special note hopefully um we got back to talking about uh different styles of relationships we got to talk about Carl Yung and a little bit about maybe polyamory polyamory is kind of a complicated subject so we're going to have some guests on to talk about it but um you know somewhere in that frame but really even shifting gears to I think something else in the last episodes here which is really trying to present um a certain way of thinking about how one develops one's own vision of the world or something so I have an anecdote it's always good to start with an anecdote so I thought I'd just tell it real quick Dani you give me your two cents on this so sure I had a student who had written me a really nice letter as she was graduating a bit ago and I had always meant to like write back and say hey thanks that was so thoughtful you get these things occasionally but this was a particularly thoughtful one I say thank you to all of them but this was a really nice one but at the time it was when my uncle was really sick it was right during that period of time when I was like taking care of my uncle which was you know a bit ago last year and so I just got distracted I never got around to doing this there was just so much Health Management things to do with a sick relative um and so it occurred to me like I really want to do that so I would wrote her but it when she was graduating She also asked me this question and the question was something like and this was in person you know like last few days of her being on campus or something she asked um either it was something like how long did it take you to get your life together or when did you know your life was together something like that and uh we being who we are and as anyone who has listened to any episodes we're not going to let a question like that go with an easy answer so I was sort of like uh well if you want me to answer honestly it depends on what you mean by together right together means different things for different people yeah and I kind of made the point about like it depends on what you want some things are easier to put together and some things are harder to put together it depends on what the circumstances socially or culturally especially being presented with so and that's been the theme of these episodes if you want what Vibes with the cultural expectations and that works for you then it's probably easier to put stuff together if you want something different deep down intrinsically then it's going to take more effort to put the thing together but I wrote it back and I said thanks for the letter and thanks for the question because it's a really good question and I said I think about it a lot for the podcast and actually said I would mention it in this episode in the email because I think it's a really great question and I said well you know I made kind of tried to make two points one was you don't really know who stuff is together from the outside you don't have any clue and I brought up the example of like in the past week I've had three conversations about different people I know who they going through through divorces or are trying to get out of relationships and are having a hard time getting out of these divorces and it's like three different women and it's interesting because they're all relatively professionally and successfully financially successful in different ways and they they're it's hard they're just having a really hard time figuring out how to handle this there's kids involved it's really messy and I suppose I'll leave it there but like literally people crying and it's like just you know it's been one of those little windows and it happens you go through these windows where like you know people are struggling obviously happens all the time so and I was like I was trying to make the point like if you would have if you were checking in from the outside you wouldn't know anything of that you wouldn't know that from social media you wouldn't know that from things that that person's going through that stuff you'd have no clue and if you're on the outside looking into at that you think well everyone else has all their stuff together and I don't you don't know you have no idea right and you know afterward you find out Oh I thought that was together it wasn't so so that's part of it I wanted to say and the other thing I wanted to say which will get us into our episode I thought do I like your feedback on all of this and what you think of that question but I had this like I was really trying to say like all I can really say for myself is I found there were major ways that I didn't want to do the same thing as the culture wanted me to do that was partially spiritual partially professionally partially interpersonally how I felt about love and relationship and things so uh and they just mentioned those in the letter real quick but that's me other people will feel different about this but I said for me that's how it was and no matter what trying to like express my own thought Vision feeling and so on of what I thought that should be was the most important thing I ever did like that's it no doubt you know and it's the only only thing that I would say made anything seem together or made anything seem like happy this was the source of Happiness to do this and so I said you know you know you don't know if things are going to work out easily or something I don't want to be naive about it and just say I think I said something like follow your dreams to Pinocchio and then you'll be a real boy or something it's not like that just to be you know I don't know a safic you might say you know just to give something that's just like just some bland thing but I was like know even in the times when it's difficult and I still don't know if I have this together totally so I try but the fact of my trying to put it together and my the fact of me trying to pursue what seems like a true and authentic vision of how I see things is like the most important thing I've ever done and so in these episodes I thought well this is kind of The Closer on this and I'm partially referencing back to Jung because it almost seems like he has similar questions got to similar places as some of us who have spiritual inclinations but you know there's like I think it's an episode about episodes about about that set of questions I'll throw it back to you that was my that was my anecdotal thing this the episode what do you think yeah so I think you know if I was able to address this person or to whoever is listening when if if they're pondering this question for themselves then you have to ask yourself really what does that mean to have your [...] together if we can say that right so if you look at some someone looks at you or whomever and says oh when did you know you had your [...] together and I my my response was what makes you think I have my [...] together you know what I'm saying not to be necessarily factious but to be like actually genuine and say okay based on your view of my life and my beingness what what leads you to believe that I have it more together than you do well in a certain sense you know what she's asking she's basically talking about something very standard I think and that's when I gave her the answer she kind of laughed like are you gonna give me one of those answers and I was like well you asked me this question right you know the answer you're G to get yeah she was talking about something like you know just getting your Ducks arranged in your life on some basic level which I mean you have to do but I don't know if that even counts as getting your [...] together right so that so that's so that's the question is one what do you think that means for you and then two okay when we have those kind of answers in in order what is the priority and then you can look at how someone's quote unquote [...] is together based on those priorities so if someone's priorities is to be in a successful marriage and that's that's their relation and that's their [...] to in together then that's it right they they have a relationship maybe they have kids or no or whatever but that's the primary goal and then yeah they work and they support themselves but the relationship is the driving force if somebody has a career oriented view of the world or view of their life then they're going to be focused on that and of course they still might have a relationship or relationships whatever but they're going to be career focused and they'll be willing to sacrifice if that gets in the way or something else like this you know if somebody is artistically driven or spiritually driven or you know parentally driven parentally driven right and these are the questions these These are the core kind of questions that we have been addressing since the be since the Inception of this podcast actually these are the things that we wanted to talk about and address and on the one hand talk about like spiritual teachings on the other hand talk about practical application right yeah it was a try and the melding of those two things yeah but then all all of that woven in with the practicalities of being a normal individual you know living living this lifetime and you know I think one of the other questions that we talked about which we have done but we haven't done in Justice really is like talking about how people allocate their time which is essentially what we're what what we're doing we're saying every episode has that yeah that could be a separate thing you f by time now anyways though because you're doing all this Z stuff so time yeah like you know it's like okay well how do you allocate your time are you allocating it towards like I said your relationship your work your children your creativ whatever it is you're allocating your time towards this in my mind would be you know quote unquote getting someone's [...] together because if you C if you want to let's just say be an artist well if you can Orient your life in such a way that your artwork can support you to eat and have a place to live and possibly exist in a relationship then your life is together regardless of how your house looks of how everything else looks and how you get paid that is the that is your goal so I think you know in like sort of summation for this question which I think is a really good one and by the way I do like getting questions from people and if you are feeling like you want to be you know part of the conversation please feel free hit us up at Jen and Tantra gmail.com leave a question in the Instagram we're we're active on that thing um or leave a question in a YouTube link we're definitely down to to do this because it brings up different uh ways of talking about stuff um that then you know to be able to ask these kinds of questions is really important and then when you come up with the answer that's unique for you then you can start to Orient yourself around that answer and then make your life your own even if it looks totally the same at least you have the thought behind it as opposed to just rolling into it unconsciously because that's what you saw your parents or the rest of everybody else doing yeah yeah yeah which actually gets perfectly into the the young stuff of this too of course it does Eric it's it's a good transition Daniel uh it's all about it's all about the professionalism that's and baby llamas from New Zealand so we you know this is Daniel's dream about baby baby llamas from New Zealand that's right um I do like making random abstract references with absolutely no frame anybody want to fill in the the Yan dream context yeah the prophetic dream of not like baby llamas like little babies but actual I know what s llamas make B I don't know what they me I don't know yeah they were they were they were from New Zealand so they had a little bit of an accent yeah mate yeah there you go uh um so okay so to set like a kind of an so part of the idea was like to go through if when I thought about it the worldview on what made the Buddhist goddesses happy in me talking about this and we talked about this a little bit last week the Buddhist goddesses well one in particular my one dissenting Buddhist goddess who wasn't happy with me got happier because I was like well I'm going to present a vision I'm not going to say something critical or something I'm going to present a vision of like a different way of thinking just because it opens up theidea of like everyone then can like think about this for themselves you don't have to agree with me or us or you know you Daniel or anybody in particular you can go through and just think about what it's like to create a vision and you know talking about how each of us has done this is helpful for other people who are trying to do the same and I suppose in the end it's something like I've been very strongly influenced by like Buddhist tantric doist Zen sui ways of thinking about the world cabalistic ways of thinking about the world and so that's my vision of things and I want my life to reflect that vision and then you know uh and then the reason to talk about Yung is because he had his own quest in this way too and there's no doubt he likes questin because he likes talking about the Grail myth and stuff he thinks there's a questin to this so okay so in the framing of this we said okay first of all we want to talk about Enlightenment as kind of a goal whatever that means I I mean different things to different people but certainly I got that as a goal right and I feel like that's kind of like an overall goal that runs through everything you know and I think if you set that as your goal well then that starts to just influence everything you know it starts to pull everything along in that direction and then probably you'll think differently about your work and your relationships or your other parts of your life right how you think of as a parent and so on right you're going to think differently then we said Yung obviously went through this right he came up to a similar conclusion right at some point of his life he had his epiphanous moments we talked about that last week and then he also got to the point which I think it was about where we were kind of at with this where he realized like oh this is going to cause me some problems because it's obvious I'm embracing a vision of the world that doesn't match the culture around me so he had that realization for sure and he framed it in a weird way he said like well there's morals which he was saying are the things that have to do with what the culture has which could be right or wrong right some parts might be right some parts wrong and then he said that there's ethics and ethics are asking me to do something higher but I'm he's he acknowledges I'm a little afraid of this and he does this really interesting thing at some point he he asks self these questions he talks about in the Remy dreams Reflections where he says something like I I had to ask myself this tough question is there a myth in is there a guiding myth in my culture and I said well I guess it's supposed to be the Christian myth okay so he said well that seems to be the guiding myth it's probably the guiding myth for American culture too yeah if you had to dig down deep it's the guiding myth and then he had to ask himself well do I believe in this myth in that way anymore and he had to say no I don't and he also asked a deeper question like do I think this myth even works anymore that's a deeper question but on a personal level I think he seem be like no I don't think I believe in this anymore which then meant he had to like go and say I'm gonna have to come up with some other myth some other story for my life story being used in a powerful way there like you need um a certain narrative to your life that's your myth that's your story and he recognized like okay I don't the story that I have the cultural R from doesn't match me anymore and so now I'm going to have to do something different and it gets a little bit to like kind of what we were talking about before so sort of the sociological and the anthropological of this right before you go there Eric um yeah you you were you were mentioning like having for you Enlightenment as being the sort of major guiding force in your life when we're you're you were creating your own vision for your self you know yeah I think that just kind of like I realize oh I feel this way and other people do like you tell you don't felt this way too you just realize that's who you are on some level yeah and then you know so then I'm just thinking about you know people who were listening you know this you know the really the several hundred the small tight-knit group of several hundred, people who are you know dedicated followers of the way um but you know for people who have various relationships with that word with that idea you know based on cultural religious based on their own influences you know what saying and I think what I wanted to point out is that like even if that is not your goal like as an individual but having a goal or having work that transcends your time until your time is extinguished in this Incarnation is akin to that kind of ideology or that kind of aspiration if you will so if it's to paint the most perfect River you know or make the most perfect guitar Rift ever you know what I'm saying like you know um you're you're still working on some kind of um Act of perfection if you will or or continual Act of like whittling away at the the wood you know that we are in some sense that I think that like you said it transcends it it doesn't present problems but it can present um moments that you can learn when you're just opposed to a culture that is not really has a lot of foresight into it you know what I'm saying and is all about like momentary kind of short attention span type [...] right quick fix type thing but that when you when people hold this to them it sort of guides the the Waypoint even further down the road even if you're get into your own life and your own job or whatever you still have like you personally and myself included we still have this other this larger Vision that is transcending even those particular things yes those are creative and compassionate endeavors that we are doing but they also run parallel to the other thing which is to this constant work on on something else so even if it's not Enlightenment for somebody who that that word or that thing doesn't fit with them just yet um having something having some Vision that transcends all the other pieces for your life I think is important to have even if it shifts as your life moves on you're still aiming on working on something that transcends all of your other work if that makes sense I guess I got two things that are kind of like personal responses to it one would be you might not like the word Enlightenment you might like another word that's cool you know um I think at the beginning of again his autobiography Yun Goes My Life is a story of the self-realization of the unconscious later on he'll call that Enlightenment but that's what that meant to him judgment about that at all whatever that means to you he's obviously talking about something that's like a psychos spiritual goal for sure now um as just a personal reaction like very personal like I can get the idea of wanting to do the perfect guitar riff yeah there you go I play a guitar is it LEDs upin cashmere has it already been written it's hard to say but maybe you can come up with something better I don't know what it would be uh that's kind of a fantastic R but whatever you you know whatever FL your boat with those things um the one thing I can say is I do have little personal thing like I think there's something about psychospiritual actualization or something that is its own unique Force yep and all I can say is for myself trying to come up with the best riff I can is in the service of this other thing sure and so I just want to throw that out as a possibility like you could go to like um I saw Robbie Shanker a few times before he died he did like seven farewell concerts and I think it was each and every one he would have out on the stage and then just rock it on this sitar you know and um and I've always had like a soft spot for that idea that you know the artistic creative works the familial works the relational Works your professional work all get subsumed under this deeper momentum so I guess that would be my pitch so there something worthwhile thinking about but if you're not into that I mean there's no judgment for sure right if you're like no I want to write the perfect guitar [...] that [...] then I would be like okay I respect it yeah you know come up with something better than Purple Haze at some point you can like put it into the garage band and you know that'll be an accomplishment and I actually sincere in that I'm not even being sarcastic no mean it I mean it so anyways but I think that's the thing I think it's this and that's maybe the theme of the episode what the reason to Le with the enlightenment thing to my mind it's like okay this is the underlying pulse the heartbeat of the whole project or something and then the other things are all the different places where the rest of that flows or something yeah yeah had a little bit about this that I thought was a little bit important which was you know part of the questioning thing happens then is that you're also probably questioning a little bit the reality of the social conditions around you for sure about this a lot so I don't want to dwell on it too much but there's like a Buddhist term for this which is called conventional truths sometimes they call them concealer truths or truth for a concealer and what they mean is that and Yung seems to be kind of like jutting up against this this idea like well there's a truth for the culture in which I'm living but that's not an ultimate truth that's just how people in this particular place think about things and um and okay I don't I don't I'm not in line with that anymore you my life is not in line with that anymore and what really struck me in my experience of this is that I think that I think there is I came to this feeling like there's a like a almost like a multi-layer reality system or something where there's sort of like a social level of reality sociocultural reality and then there's the Transcendent levels of reality and I don't know if those for my way of thinking and curious about your opinion but I don't know if those Transcendent ways of thinking care much about these social ways of thinking now I know other people may not agree with that you know obviously you can have like a religious or spiritual view that says oh m gave these Commandments and we're supposed to follow them and all that you know and if that works for you that's cool but I don't believe that personally you know I don't I don't believe in a Divinity that asks for those things I don't think that's true I think that's just like a certain sociocultural interpretation of how people are going to live if you believe it no judgment but I don't that doesn't seem true to me and um I think those are things that human beings are doing amongst themselves you know and a lot lot times there's a disconnect between what the bigger universe is doing I was trying to talk to a patient about this and I said something like you know the universe doesn't care about this stuff you know I don't think it cares about this stuff at all you know um and again you know I'm presenting a view so this is the view I'm presenting here I think in Zen they have this phrase that says energy before form the energy is the more Transcendent aspects of reality it has its own Mojo going on for sure has its own idea of what things are and then there's the social level of things right and um you know that's just different and I think I was going back all the way back to like we talked about Joseph Campbell sometimes on here and that was like what I got when I was a teenager he talked about the Temptations of the Buddha and the third one which just hit me like a shot because I I was already thinking thoughts like this he said well the third one that really almost gets him is like well what about like what your social Duties are and what everyone says you're supposed to be doing and what about all those rol RS that you're supposed to be committed to you're supposed to be this and this and this and this and he says no I don't want that which I think Yung went through too I think he got to some point where he's like no I don't want to these aren't real for me anymore I don't believe in these anymore in the same way I believe in what's coming from some higher level of reality which for him would probably be the collective unconscious or something right as a force and so I guess that's you know one of the main points of the dsts and the tantricas and the sufis and the gnostics and pretty much any mystical person you can name that you could talk about this distinction so I wanted to just throw that I wanted to include that in this because obviously I feel that very strongly and as far as we're each going to create our Visions that's like no doubt part of my vision like energy before form that's like quintessential for me and then other people can make their own decisions about this but you know since we're talking about what it means to try to form something like this for ourselves right that's what I would say about it if I was talking honest so I think that's a major question you can ask yourself these questions like do you believe in something that you would call Enlightenment what would that mean to you you know and then how do you think that fits into the idea of like whatever's the the more conventional truth level reality do you believe that there's this kind of thing where there's differences and that everybody has to think this but you know I do so all right so what do you got in the net everything we're saying here is is uh multiple episodes along but anyways we're going through it yeah no I think I mean you want to make it practical right so for people I think that that's kind of like I mean for I mean for us anyways different people who are going to talk about like how to orient your life are probably going to start somewhere different right so Jordan Peterson character is probably gonna say like do you have a job or something like this you know like I don't yeah right did you make your bed that morning right yeah yeah you shave you know you do basic hygiene yeah yeah okay which is good you know okay yeah yeah nothing wrong with that no problem I'm gonna I'm going to take my uh the nose of the airplane and raise it just a little bit I want to actually take off the ground I don't want to use the airplane as a [...] Honda Civic that's me you know what I'm saying like yeah yeah uhuh you're shooting up you're shooting up for shooting up for higher Skies yeah we just I want to see the city from above theity over to the 7-Eleven around the corner yeah no we're taking it she I'll turn this play back around I'll turn this play back around we're going to go pick up a frosty from Wendy's you know we'll be right back um yeah no so I mean irony of this whole thing is this is imminently practical to me this is imminently prac see the world like on two different levels is imminently practical correct but you know it's gonna Vibe with different people in different ways for sure so okay so you have this kind of like we'll say spiritually minded ideology or spiritually minded infusion of Life vision right and so to you then and to me the question the first question is like is what is Enlightenment what does it mean to me or if somebody wants to ask the question is there a god what does it mean to me what does that mean to me you can do similar kind of thing how do you want to be closer to the source the it's we're splitting hairs with the differences and then like you said everything else that you do then is an emanation from that Curiosity right from the the attempts to blend those two your passion for experiences which we which is our definition of curiosity and the the sort of slow kind of methodical merit-based efforts that you put towards that you know the desire for Union and then your regular life and then what comes out of that work right does that what comes out of that work does does does artwork come out of that work does helping other people come out of that work does coding for Google come out of that work you know like like you know it's you know in the the tantric statement that always fits it's not what you do but how you do it how do you do it and so if you're coming from this place of a desire for you know Transcendence or for Union or for a realization or for curiosity to have some of your questions the the burning of your questions quelled a little bit in your lifetime then your work is a manifestation of that so to to you know if I can speak for you that this is infin infinitesimally practical because that is the ground from which you are working with as opposed to like the quintessential difference between happiness and unhappiness as far as I can tell might not work for anybody else it might not or not work for everybody else it's gonna work for somebody for sure well but so whatever you decide about that but all I can say is if someone asked me honestly what's the difference between happiness and unhappiness it's this yeah you know having a vision framing it and living your life as true to as you can so you know you can't get everything in order right away but you know you try to I didn't mean to kill your buzz and you were going you were flowing and I didn't mean to kill your no good so I mean I think the the the difference is then like having this as your destination right so everybody knows GPS everybody has GPS and everyone knows I love analogies so here's another one this is this is the destination and having the destination then everything along the way becomes part of the journey and I think looking at it at the the kind of other way which we'll use two for now because we can't argue 15500 points on here here but we'll use the other way which is the culmination of like okay got it make sure you do good hygiene make sure you brush your teeth all right then uh get a job get dressed like a man or woman or whatever the hell you want you know whatever dress like a person right that fits and people know that you're a worker and that's what you do you work and then you make money you know you just sort of you go piece by piece by piece by piece like you're going to do that anyways and and yes there are some people who's like their life is in such a way that they have to have a very strong foundation for them in order to be able to even talk about having time to go take a walk when the Sun is setting to experience some nice colors you know like they have to do all these things and have to be taught how to do these things first unfortunately and this is the the point in which I don't want to be exclusionary but I could say maybe a little bit in in in our kind of work here that we are talking to those people but I don't know that those people are listening to us which to me which is why I always try and and stop and pause and connect to to that mind because I feel like that we are not speaking different languages my friends we are not speaking different languages we're speaking the same language is just I'm aiming further knowing that I'm going to hit multiple targets along the way I don't need to aim five feet in front of me in order to go 50 feet I can aim 30 feet and then hit the things as I get there that's that's kind of what I'm saying in a certain sense you and Christian were doing these workshops for men yeah we still do we have one coming up this weekend yeah awesome right good to plug it so uh let people know what's out there so you know if you look at like Jordan Peterson who we but okay it's fine if you look at him like his goal is to get people up to some certain level of functioning yeah right and his goal isn't to like you know then that's fine but his goal isn't to like help you like realize the deepest parts of who you are or something that's not his goal his goal is to like try to like um I mean from a cynical point of view his goal is to like help you fit into the society so you can become a little Cog in a machine to be honest you know that's his goal and you can like function within that in a relatively you know functional way and maybe that's like you know like gets you out of a certain kind of dysfunction but um but like you're saying like I think the closer is good if you just kind of set a deeper vision of who you are you're going to hit a lot of targets along the way that's gonna happen yeah right those targets are going to get hit all right so as they before before you move on Eric it just reminds me when I was in the army that you know we'd be on the Range shooting our our rifles at Targets and they would say targets coming up knock them down so yeah that's what it is yeah um okay so then since we were talking about this in the context of like love and relationships what is love that's right had is that who that is that's the that's the I was trying to come up with like better reference than that but I couldn't think of anything out that my I mean I'm sure that's yeah I'm sure that song has probably a billion views on YouTube so it's probably a good you know reference yeah all you need is love so okay so I think when you look at Yung it's certain the one of the most fascinating things about him and I've hopefully shared this in these episodes is if you really understand what was happening in his life on more of a personal level it really gives you a deeper insight into who he was and probably why he was thinking what he was thinking there's no doubt there's a way of thinking about him and whether I write a book about this I don't know but I've done the research for it and you're like yeah there's no doubt that like what he was experiencing in his relationships and in love was influencing almost everything that was happening in all of his psychological thinking and really how could it not because those are powerful experiences right and as we talked about you know as powerful as any iasa or you know psilocybin or anything this is a powerful set of experiences probably more because it's done it happens regularly I know you know we we we you know we we've kind of alluded to some sex stuff recently but um my you know my teacher Andre will say that like couples who engage in like actual tantric practice tantric sex when they do it in you know the kind of traditional way that the Kamasutra practices not just you know neotantra whatever the culture has taken and changed but like actual Tantra and if you know we could totally talk about that at some point but that like that's a goal to do that so that's like once we did this that's the next obvious thing to talk about right yeah that like people will maintain states of bliss for days on end we you know he said for him he's seen there's a couple couples that he knows back in in uh in Ukraine maybe they moved out I don't know but like he said between 10 and 14 days they would be in this like absolutely Blissful State as if they were practicing vajana and had a wonderful you know what I'm saying so it's totally and there's this certain goal of like to be in that mind frame like all the time whether you're with your partner or not and just as part of your you learn how to meditate to create those States in you yeah so that's a subject matter to talk about for sure right right um but I think he was also looking at like interpersonal connection it strikes me a little bit as like we'll get back to like maybe like what roomy had with Sean to breze or something like these really intense transformative relationships um and so I think for me when I think about this if I do energy before form for me it's the idea like you don't really know who those people are going to be where those people are going to show up and how that's going to be for you you know they're kind of you could say gifts from the da that just appear for you and you get the feeling like and again I don't know the dude young but you certainly get the feeling like he was a little probably taken aback like wow I didn't I didn't anticipate this happening but all of a sudden I'm having these encounters with people that are extremely powerful on different levels I mean his encounter with Freud was really powerful you know as a mentorship which ultimately broke up but it's also like he was having romantic uh connections with people that were extremely powerful that he just probably never would have anticipated ever happening in his life and so I just wanted to say like I think it's a again it like it has a different way of thinking about what relationship between people means to me I would frame this as very suic Sufism I'd frame it as very Buddhist Tantra you know you don't know when you're going to meet the people who are going to be powerful influences on you whether they're teachers or friends or people that you love or are in love with you don't know how this is going to happen like you really don't and I think that's my idea that the Universe has its own thing going on and the level of like social reality is doing its thing and they don't necessarily you know and I wanted to like just say like probably for him and we all to think about this it ended up being probably not a view of traditional marriage which is one way of thinking about how relationship Works within a culture right and it's based in like a certain way of thinking and it's you know I think the ultimate idea of that is that there's like the one who will appear right sometimes even in like judeo-christian tradition you'll get the idea like there is like the one and Yahweh will set you up with the one right now whatever our culture thinks about that now I don't think people believe in that as much but that is the root of this right and even as Esther peral would point out like it's probably like You' meet the one in that like way of framing things I mean that was the culture for a long time was probably someone you met in your teens from like your hometown who your parents probably thought was a good match and they would be the one right and I looked it up because I was curious because if you were a girl you were in your teens most likely yep and if you were a boy apparently I looked up like what was this like in the Middle Ages you know uh and it was like if you're a boy you're probably in your early 20s depending on the class you're in and stuff like that and then that was it so I looked it up I was like well that's that's one like obviously the underlying the underlying foundation of the culture that we're living is that idea right that's it you know that's the underlying basis now we tweaked it and changed it we could talk about that but that was the concept and then you know as Esther Perell says we like to reference Esther Pell because everyone loves Esther Perell I can't tell you how many like things I get from people like it's so great you're talking about Esther Perell everyone says it but she says you know those relationships didn't last that long because if you're a woman it was very likely you would die in childbirth and and if you were a guy you'd probably die in an industrial accident or get killed in a war I me they weren't long relationships you know they were you know much shorter than what people are living now and in many ways it was a connection between resources of families and I think you and I have had conversations about this these are in many ways love relationships I'm not saying they're not but they're also Financial relationships business relationships Partnerships in this way uh you know to not see that is I think to be naive and not look at what things really are um and it was a lot of pressure and it was fasinating because I was doing the research on Yung and I was doing one of the texts that was written about his relationship with Freud and then Sabrina Ry uh it's called The Dangerous Method and so I'm I've been taking it apart really deep there's a movie made of it with Michael fosbender playing Yung and vgo Morton playing Freud Kier nightly playing Sabina spir R the movie is kind of a little riffy I don't think it really reflects like their actual lives it kind of like takes creative Liberties to make a better movie but it was interesting in doing the research because they said you know even in Young time there was a whole movement involved because especially for women if you didn't get married by a certain time you were an old maid that's still rude that's still present in a lot of cultures now man yeah yeah yeah no I know and like people talk about this in American culture in funny ways too but at that time you were going to live like a Loveless sexless childish life like you'd be just so they had like major movements at the time of Freud and Yung when they were first meeting and this is like the beginning of the last century not that long ago where they were like yeah this is a real problem because if you don't don't if you don't get a partner your wom like the morals are such you're stuck you're you're done you know and it was a real serious problem U now obviously this is evolved on but this is sort of like the underlying subcurvata fighting over this view there's still arguments there's still people who want to go back to this view you know they want the world to be this way because that's the underlying sort of impetus of like a big part of culture you know yeah and it's a belief my point of being it's like a belief about reality too sure I talked with my brother about this and I said you know whenever I have I'm gonna say something with my brother I have to get permission to say it because he's a very private person so I said can I talk about this and he said yes so uh I have a cousin he's born born again he's very religious his first wife very sad story got cancer and passed away you know they had kids together you know the kids were basically grown but um you know he lost her you know that's obviously it's a terrible painful thing but very religious person and so he went on and he eventually found like somebody else ultimately after a certain amount of time I'm happy for him he has a certain way of looking at the world right he's a religious person we were in the church and I was just saying thinking about this and I leaned over to my brother and I whispered you know if you really believed because it was a question of like why get married because they're like you know they're already going into their 60s why bother doing it you know but they're going to do it and I was like you know I was going well if you really believe in this this is your worldview you know then this is like a huge deal you know so I was like Whispering this to my brother you know if you really believe in this and my brother like is funny because he just went like sh he just shushed me and that wasn't like taking a loudspeaker and like blasting it to the whole crowd I was just leaning over to him privately and going you know and I was like really like understand trying to understanding it going okay if that's how you feel right and then he and I were joking about this because I said well I wasn't I was gonna like they say like do you have any objections I wasn't gonna jump up I have objections to this whole thing I don't know if I like it at all but for you it's good no judgments I might have issues with it then I'd sit back down again or something and he'd be pulling on my sleeve I wasn't going to do that I was talking very quiet but anyways you know it's a certain way of looking at the world right so I just want to say like that's something you get to look at for yourself do I believe in this do I believe in the one you know it's something to figure out don't you think I agree yeah yeah and like at least as far as American culture it's one major theme right it's one generally world right I suppose the other way of viewing the world and I don't know what I think this means but a lot of people are then if you're not that you're probably a biological materialist probably which we have episodes physical odds are pretty high right yeah so if that's the case so I was trying to get I was trying to do the Buddhist thing here where you walk through and say what is this View and tail you know like if you think this way if this is your underlying way of looking at the world what does that mean and I think in that sense it means that you see people as kind of like individual biological units there's no deeper like spirit ual ties between them because those don't exist so you don't think about it that way and so you end up just kind of doing whatever you do romantically sexually and so on as these sort of little self-contained biological evary evolutionary units or something and I think under the surface that's kind of like the underlying worldview the reason I'm bringing the contrast up is because that's not the worldview that I'm talking about it's a different worldview and even if you take a step back and you saywell I don't know you know different people can have different attitudes about this we get to the point of really non-judgment there are people who think this way I have friends who like this is their underlying way of looking at the world their biological materials that's what it is right they have their sexual partners they don't have particular Karma with them or something they have the Romantic Partners I'm not saying those relationships aren't important to them they are you know but it doesn't have the same framing because they don't see the world that way you know when you dig underneath right love can be very real and very meaningful it's not even to like be like I don't think it's meaningful it's more just to say like it's a different way of looking at the world like completely does that make sense what I'm trying to say there yeah yeah completely different ways of looking at the world I have one little I don't know do you have something you want to say about it what do you think I mean it just it's a further illustration of what we said earlier it's it's not what you're doing but how you're doing it you know and so all the various permutations of the way which we choose to spend our time and whom we choose to spend our time with uh ends up being uh an an act of that you know I guess like an Al I don't want to like we can you we can have our own takes on this but I think it's really important to figure out like what do you actually believe sure what is your underlying belief system uh because you could talk about how you spend your time and and those things and I think those are all really important and you and I don't even have to agree at this but for me I'm like trying to get to the point of like what do you believe like what are your core sets of like who you are what you actually believe sure that's probably going to have to like inform the rest of who you are I don't know that that remains super fixed though do you know what I'm saying I had an interesting conversation with Ryan Davenport where he said like our anthropological consultant that's right one of them Mary K ran being the other to give our due diligence and props to both so uh and he was like well you know most American he just said this you know we were talking about different stuff he said well you know most Americans are not very self-reflective you anthropologically yeah I would AG like okay so I'm like I'm letting him do his anthropological RI and then he said like because of that they have these external identity anchors you know I guess it's an anthropological phrase they tie their identities to certain external things yeah and then depending on how those things go things will turn out bad or good personally but because they haven't really done a lot of like internal self-reflection to build up a song strong sense of their own identity which I would say like self-identity self-concept or something because they haven't done that then that he was saying that you know it's really fragile and so people feel incredibly insecure right because it's very it's like their self-concept is very fragile again existential Guardian operating system however you want to frame it from your previous episodes you know that is that is a very good wrap up because I know we we're close to being the time but of what you said right away in the beginning of the episode that the Buddha's kind of like third uh what do you trial mental trial or whatever it was that he had to overcome expectations or we'll just call them thoughts from other people right and that that's exactly what this is if you have your yourself tied to external things as your sense of identity then based on how those things turn out also you turn out so if you identify yourself with let's just say a job in this case and that job goes away for whatever reason or you can no longer perform that job or you are too old or whatever the case is there goes your identity so he using the phrase like identity anchor which I never heard before but yeah myology yeah that myth of retirement is is a myth you haven't developed yourself the entire way through and you are identifying yourself in reality externally and in reality internally as a blank as a whatever you know brick layer you know like that's what you do that therefore that is who you are and when that is no longer there the question remains who are you but you know we are we're trying to to to make that make you go internal first before you do that so that you can be what you can do whatever you want to do but that doesn't mean you need to be that you have the internal identity set for you and then you're not being dictated by these external identity anchors correct you can do whatever you want to do and still choose to be whoever you want to be that's that's the one that someone will text me next week and say you said that and that's correct I got like like I'm the one who has to go but let me just take like a couple of minutes just to say this one last thing and it's the Capper of this section for me because I started thinking about this relative to like mental health and like getting even like psychology and how psychology works so I asked to a patient in mine who's involved in this stuff too she works in a business where they hire a lot of psychologists and I was like you know what's the worldview of the people who are doing this psychology and she was like you know it really is what you're talking about they're bi they're biological materialist worldview people you know that's their framework from which they come from and I thought okay so that's interesting and then they said you know for me I had you know my psych meor Michael Schnur who I talk about on occasion here right who you know deeply love and deep gratitude and it's will make me if I talk about too much because he help me out so much but the thing was he didn't impose that worldview on me and he didn't have that world viw kind of assumed so I got kind of Lucky in that like he traveled to India he traveled to China he was open to other stuff so in a funny way the more unorthodox parts of who I was at times he was concerned I can't say he wasn't concerned at all but he also was like very accepting of it he was like okay this guy has a different way of looking at the world and he could meet me in some place you know because he had gone all around India and he was interested in Indian culture and he had gone he went to China to study Chinese Bodywork you know at some point he borrowed my TCM books and like went and they never gave them back but you know he did this stuff and I've wondered about that too so I wanted to just include that as a last Capper on this part because we're talking about the two dominant worldviews and I almost felt like wow even in terms of like mental health if you're going to get help from somebody and they're they're not coming from a similar or open to the worldview that you're coming from or coming from something that can accept that worldview I think that's a real problem and I just wanted to throw that out there in terms of seeking help and I don't think people ask that question you know but if like I thought by myself if I was going to see somebody who really was like biological materialist person that was their homebased framework that would have been really bad for me I think the the hard part though the hard part would to know where someone is coming from from and if you didn't if you were seeking someone's help and identifying some of the things that were important to you you inherently don't know what are some of the things that are important I know that's so tricky that's go back and I look at it it's like wow if he wouldn't have been accepting of who I was because in a certain sense I was developing a Zen doist Sufi cabalist Buddhist tantric worldview that's what I was doing ultimately that's what those sessions were all about if I were to summarize them as something and if he wasn't open to that you know then that would have been a real problem and I go back and I think how would that even have worked so I'm talking with my patient I was like oh well that would have been a real problem for me if you know uh that would have been really difficult I don't know how that would have happened I don't think it would have worked out well for me so I just wanted to throw it out there because she I asked her about and she was like no it's really this is the framework of people because we only really have two major worldviews in the United States there's a kind of religious one which I think was the first one I was referencing my cousin has it that one's kind of on the decline right yeah for sure you and then the other one is the one that's more on the upsurge yeah right probably underneath if you go down to the surface this is how people think but like some dude like Yung doesn't think that way that's his breakup with Freud is on this point he breaks up with him because he doesn't have that same worldview I mean if you if I write a book about it that's the thing that breaks them up in the end you is like no I don't see the world that way I don't have this worldview that you have without even judging it one way or the other and then you know since we're talking about young and mental health and I I asked my patient the question I was like well what's the attitude what's the world view and she's like it's this one and I was like wow that would have been really tough for me so anyways I just wanted to share it yeah connected it's not an easy question but I want to pop it out there for people yeah all right I guess that's it thanks D for letting me getting that last thing out but I think it's the Capper on this thing course how do you seek help you have to figure out what the worldview is yeah yeah all right beautiful thanks uh thanks everyone for listening too thanks everyone for listening I'm just particularly I'm just particularly grateful today yeah no it's it's good to you know um yeah there's more but we're not going to do it okay yeah so uh as always you know hit us up on Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast uh YouTube watch the video like it subscribe share all that kind of stuff Apple leave a review uh jantantra gmail.com uh website will be coming at some point soon uh we are trying to uh you know make this Enterprise uh take off like the USS Enterprise and that would make me uh I don't know I'll put you as Captain Kirk that's totally fine just don't make me don't make me Mr Spock or something I don't want no no I was gonna go with data you know that you be data yeah for sure but I'm probably actually gonna be what's the co- captain from John Luke Bard what's his co- captain's name is it rker yeah rker that's probably i' probably end up being that like lame dude from uh like don't stand by me or [Laughter] something I'm to being that dude this is not a good deal for me okay fine fine fine we'll pick a different one I like the new generation though I like the Next Generation that was good there we go all right well uh as always Eric thank you so much I can't claim peard I can't no it's tough to do Stewart got it going on you know yeah it's too bold um anyways Eric as always thank you so much audience thank you so much for listening you know how to get a hold of us uh you know show us you love us once in a while we appreciate it uh we do love youall we're very grateful for uh the listeners and uh you know for all the passor buyers who come and go we will see you soon and as always for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch youall on the next one