hey fellow g in tears those of who like our spirituality with a twist in the second episode of our four part series we continue our discussion with the profound jovial and enlightening glenn h mellon or simply lama glenn to his students lama glenn's bio is a long one so if you are curious about the longer more complete version is in the first episode of the series the shorter version goes llama glenn traveled from canada and lived in the indian himalayas between 1972 and 1984 where he met at the dalai lama and then stayed on and studied with 35 of the greatest living masters of the four schools of tibetan buddhism drug in those experiences is the author of over 30 books on tibetan buddhism especially focused on the dalai lamas and the practice traditions of buddhism particularly the tantric tradition he has been an international teacher of tantric buddhist meditation for the past 25 years his expertise in asian culture extends to art and he has curated a number of important buddhist art exhibitions and is an advocate for artists of the east helping to make their work available to collectors in the west he is currently at work on a book on nicholas roarick the great russian painter spiritual figure and social activist lama glenn is also an expert in travel to the sacred sites of the himalayas he leads tours and acts as a consultant advisor to those wanting to travel safely and meaningfully through those sacred sites finally lamigan is an activist in allowing western folks to help support spiritual practice and activity in the east i personally have helped sponsored retreats with his help it's always good to try to give back a little if one can okay in this episode we talk about different types of spiritual lifestyles whether one is a spiritual beggar as monastics tend to be called in the east or a spiritual seeker living as a layperson as they also do in the east and most of us will do in the west we also talked about fun in spiritual practice and how many times a day a good buddhist can have sex the answer may surprise you enjoy the episode [Music] welcome to jyn and tantra spirituality with a twist the podcast that takes tantrusim buddhism taoism sufism cabalism shamanism chinese medicine and all of the other isms we've been influenced by and blends them into a tall crisp cool cocktail your spirit has been longing for you to get together now isn't that refreshing i want you to get together when you were in darncelot uh you know uh you've lived your life as a layperson was there any temptation to becoming a monk i know robert thurman's kind of famous for becoming you know like pursuing that monk route and then not pursuing it you know did that cross your mind a dollar you already knew you're going to live in a person and even as a young child i did have a kind of a vision of myself becoming a monk i mean i could often if i just sat in like quietly like this i could often feel myself being in monk's robes it was almost like i was a monk in a in a human disguise or something a non-monk disguise i really did have that very deep feeling but when i was in europe i met a wonderful jewish lady from new york city and we got married and we went to india together oh okay so you're already a married person no well we weren't legally married but you know we were together so that's a kind of a marriage in canada if you if you're together for any amount of time you're just declared by the government married so that you don't try to use it to your tax advantage [Laughter] for a while that wasn't the case you know so then people would like get married they get that wouldn't get married but then one would like put a tent in the backyard of the house and say no no i'm living there a double tax benefit but anyway yeah so and uh after i was there for about two years there was kind of a big become a monk movement with certain groups especially with lama yeshe lamazopa the foundation foundation for preservation and i was quite you know i really was very impressed by lama yeshua and lamazopa and i received teachings from both of them almost from the beginning because although they didn't they lived in nepal they came to bhadgaya every winter to attend dela lama's teachings and sometimes would do things down there at dalai lama's request and also they would come to dharamsala to attend delama's teachings and so i knew both of them and quite a few of my friends became monks and i was thinking about it and uh i didn't discuss it with my lady friend with my partner because i thought if i do and then i don't become a monk she'll hold it against me women never forget i don't know if you've noticed but they never forget words of wisdom llama glad if i go shopping i have to write everything on the list if i don't write it i'll forget one or two things a lady could have a shopping list of 300 things and come back with 305. but anyway i went to kim ji ling doji chang the dull of a senior guru senior tutor who also was my main kind of tantric person in my mind because i received yamataka initiation for him from him at christmas of 72 or just after new year 73 at that period and uh had a very very strong experience so really look to him as kind of my main spiritual guide if you will so i went and uh i went and visited and i asked him what he thought and he picked up his diceman no you know there's really in terms of enlightenment there's no benefit that becoming a monk is a lifestyle choice and everyone has their own kind of path and over history there's been many great enlightened beings who were not monks and you know you mentioned people padma sambhava and then marpa and melarepa tisha's great disciple lumpdrampa the early many of the early sakyalamas and so on and so forth so he went on with a list and he said or enlightenment that becoming a monk or not becoming a monk is nothing to do with that decision it's a lifestyle being a monk has some advantages uh also has some disadvantages and so you're better off to practice as a as a they don't you know they don't say layperson in that kind of a way they use one of two words other kenyan and agen means kind of like a spiritual seeker and gale a monk they don't use the word monk they say long gillum means spiritual beggar because it means monks aren't supposed to touch money and they're not supposed to save any food or anything or have any possessions it's kind of the buddhist equivalent in india of a vow of poverty and so gelang means you need sponsors to you know in india you would just have to be accepted into a little temple group and then every morning usually seven or eight o'clock you go out and beg stand in the street with your bowl until it was full and you would have one meal at noon time so that's how it was and of course in tibet it wasn't like that india wasn't like that or the far east these are northern countries so you know those long winters people would freeze to death standing out there with a little bowl the meaning is actually that so genya means spiritual seeker and otherwise say we'll use the word natto which means a tantric practitioner so i don't remember which of those was used but uh the main the two terms used although we translate as layperson or monk in english that words and tibetan are spiritual seeker or spiritual beggar and so so when he said that uh he threw his dice not for you i'm relieved or were you more like oh rats well you know there was a certain kind of pleasure in the idea of being a monk uh you know you get to sit at the front of sort of some gatherings and you get a few privileges here and there people make offerings to you and what have you i mean that's the meaning of spiritual beggar right that's the meaning of the word monk because people make offerings to you you don't farm you don't fish you're not a carpenter you don't have a job your income is basically offerings given by those who are not spiritual beggars and so anyway for me i think it was it was kind of a good feeling of clarification you know if there's one of those kind of things should i shouldn't i should i shouldn't i should i shouldn't you know it's like if you go to a bar at night and as a young man and there's like three girls and they all show interest in you and you're looking and which one which one we're going to wait then if you keep doing that all night you go home alone because you're you missed your chance you need some wise to bet man to throw the dice for you then on the on the bar top right and then you could strike out with confidence it was like you know i mean becoming a monk would have some advantages and and lifestyle as shrimpy jay put it not becoming among kids advantages for it in lifestyle what did you say oh sorry what did you see amongst the other americans who were there or western canadians americans and so on who were going to that path did they tend to stick that out or well you know you mentioned bob thurman he became a monk against the advice of his guru who gives you one girl he asked yeshua about becoming a monk and that was his kind of main teacher in the states and i guess you one girl said no no you're better off to you know go to college get your phd and be a spiritual seeker rather than a but you know but i don't know if you know bob very well but he's a very very wonderful human being and one a very very dear friend and i would say one of the great buddhist personalities and geniuses of our my generation but he is headstrong being that strong can work for you or against you so even though he told me this story said even though get you one girl told me no no i thought well i really want to become a malcolm so he went to darmson he went to lingaram and uh i think lingard said oh well you'll have to discuss it with the dalai lama you know so then he went up to dalai lama and asked for ordination and tell them said okay then he was a monk for a couple of years but then realized keshu wangel had been right from the beginning you know i think becoming a monk is okay if you want to live in one of the monasteries and have all the benefits of monastery life and have the kind of emotional intellectual uh environmental support that you get with living with you know anywhere from twenty to five thousand others in that same lifestyle we're motivated in that same way to pursue those same things no whiskey no sex you know go to bed early get up early if they're all in that same thing yeah it's easy for you to do it but then if like bob you come back to the states and you're the only blo only a monk for 100 miles around and you know you walk around looking like a bit of a weirdo and especially in that time i think there was sort of a backlash against kind of weird cults like the hairy krishna people and you know maharishi maharishmesh no no no ramana mahoshi people those kind of things i think that kind of outer and nobody understood what is a monk over here you know nobody would look at uh now if you wear robes like the dalai lama everyone thinks oh you must be a like a dalai lama monk or something like that right but back in the late 60s or early 70s that wasn't there and so i think you know for him it was difficult many other monks come over determined to be monks even amongst tibetans they try to stay monks but they find it not that easy in a western lifestyle when they're living by themselves having their own cash flow having to manage their own bank accounts and do everything and you can't walk outside with like a begging bowl and just stand in the street no one's gonna know what to do with you right yeah it's not thailand or some burma or something like that i wouldn't have a clue what what that's about and uh so i think yeah he just he's you know came to see very cle and he was back with gesher wangel who's saying you know i told you so i told you so but many of my other friends who became monks in india when they came back found it kind of uncomfortable just little things you know like uh you know going to dinner and all of you know with with mixed groups and the kind of things that go on in dinner things or going out to you know evening events and dinners dinner clubs and restaurants and all that sort of thing it's kind of a little bit uncomfortable sticking out like that so i would say probably 92 percent of western people i mean who became monks in damsel uh later gave that up i mean examples alan wallace he stopped being a spiritual beggar and it became a spiritual seeker and now he's a very well known very well respected very accomplished uh buddhist teacher probably in the tibetan tradition one of the five or six uh most uh most successful i would say that's the really interesting thing about it it's kind of like a fascination of the show because people like you or you know uh robert thurman or blm wallace you all made a you know big influence on people in a you know a non-non-monastic lifestyle so it's not like that didn't translate into great things in terms of helping a lot of people i think it really did right well certainly i have no regrets over not becoming a monk i have no regrets if you not becoming a monk too and i'm sure had i become a monk i probably would have become an x-monk than the word in tibetan is trollop which means something like a fallen monk or something like that well means uh turned turned back turned back monk so you know in tibetan it's a little bit of a derogatory term because it is a lifetime precept but on the other hand you know buddha made accommodations for it so you know technically you can become a monk three times you can give back being a monk twice and become a monk three times the third time you give back you cannot become a monk again so examples of that for instance geshe gelsen a very accomplished gandan sharzai geshe was sent to england in the mid 60s or late 60s when england took over 50 or so tibetan youth refugees and the dalai lama sent him as kind of their spiritual preceptor tutor or i don't know you say counselor ombudsman ombudsman and after they grew up and finished their education he disrobed and became a monk and became spiritual seeker rather than spiritual beggar and he taught in england as a lay as a non-monk to the western community then he moved to l.a he was invited to la on a teaching tour and ended up his wife i think left him for someone in in l.a then he became a lonely lonely lonely ex-monk and then gave back to his monk vows no and then then took took month vows again yeah so he became a monk again and uh then later one of his students became a nun but they decided about five years later that they were spending so much time together running you know the dharma center and all that that both of them being monks and sleeping in separate rooms was not that practical and everyone looking at them like i wonder what they do when everyone goes away so they both decided to disrobe and get married so that was the second time he gave the monk and then they were like that for a few years and then he he again took monk foul just before a few years before he died he figured you know i think i'll i'd like to die as a monk and so he died as a monk and spent the last few years as a monk so buddha made it possible that if you become a monk and you decide it's not for you you can honorably give back your robes which you go to your preceptor the one you received them from and said it's not working out and then you know five whatever years later you change your mind on it you can come back and say well okay i sorted all that out i'm ready to go now give it another crack and then 10 years later things can change and you know your parents will say oh you have to come home and make some grandkids for us and you can say oh otherwise we're not gonna you know sponsor your monastery and punish monks all over the world you know aristocrats do that sort of thing right you know for instance with mongolia one of the history books in mongolia why are most mongolian monks married these days most mongolian monks will say well the communists forced us to marry but there's evidence that this was not the case there's evidence that maybe a hundred or 150 years earlier one of the mongolian kings wrote a letter to the delay and pancha llamas and said so many of our young men and women are becoming monks and nuns that our population is dropping too much so we've got a choice here either they can marry or else i'm kicking buddhism out of the country yeah that pretty much solves that problem and so then pension lava apparent and this history that uh one of my very dear mongolian friends was reading to me from mongolia said and so the pension llama wrote back a letter saying okay they can marry but only one wife one because otherwise some tibetan some mongolian aristocrats would marry three or four or five there's no you could have more than one why and he said and no mistresses so you know i mean vineyard in that way is somewhat flexible both legally within buddhism outside of the tradition coming from buddha himself adaptations made by various kings for instance in thailand one of the kings made the rule that if you don't want to join the army if you've got a strong objection to join the army and doing your army service you can become a monk for a period and so if you have to be drafted for six months or a year no no no no i'm not a killing type then uh you and then the king made a an option say okay if you don't want to you're which monastery are you joining for the next six months or a year and that changed from that to essentially being uh later he made it that anyone can become for a stipulated time period so you can take a monk vow for say a month or two months or three months so that's a kind of a political alteration to the tradition you could say so what's interesting about this to me lama lemongrain and all of this is there's a kind of a flexibility and i the thing that struck me in first meeting you you know and you're kind of one of the first teachers in the tibetan buddhist world that i had that connection with uh was that there's room for kind of a fun and an enjoyment of life on some level that i just found in what you were doing i think it's maybe for people who aren't familiar with you and your work and your teaching and all that it's pretty obvious that you're a person who you know uh knows what fun is and enjoying life and i had initially had my exposure to buddhism through zen and it was very strict and then i had this experience of meeting you and i was like oh this is different this is something weird i think you're right i think well you know i think the traditions of zen sort of bring in that sort of stern chinese kind of quality mountain dharma quality that sort of combines the you know bodhidharma like facing a wall for nine years and not moving and cutting off his eye eyelid so that he wouldn't fall asleep and stuff uh there is a little bit of that even in indian buddhism but that kind of radical very stern kind of approach which comes to buddhism i think because then buddhism from the taoist tradition you know buddha advocated the middle way and that really means balancing indulgence and uh non-intelligence i guess in other words uh having enough fun to make your life fun but not having so much that you don't get anything else done like a sex is kind of an example we shouldn't have sex more than five times a day that's typically distracting for your medication now when you see a rule like that you know that buddhist rules just came because of complaints right is that the wording of the rule not more than five times a day there's uh six things are listed for kind of wrong sex you could say or actually tibetan tibetan yeah tibetan sometimes it's called chopalopa which means sort of abusing the sexual instinct or something yeah but uh more than five to five times is okay more than that is too much and other things are mentioned there as well that's about the only one i often mention because i think it says more about the buddhist attitude towards such things and most other things one can say about sexual regulations yeah other things are like not by force or deceit like you know don't rape anyone and not not with children you know pedophilia so this is what's like studying with you llama glenn you never know where it's going to go