[Music] hey fellan tear those of us like our spirituality with they twist made it through that time you did wonderful excellent Eric it's only taken you several years and you're doing such a good job now I like I get that like little thing that you're gonna like slightly mess with me ahead of time and I'll just screw it up oh I thought about it actually oh I could tell all right anyways uh hey fellow those spiritually with the twist all right so we're back uh we're talking about Jung's answer to job and if uh you didn't hear the first one in this real quick thing is that Yung wrote this long thing where he's talking about the Book of Job we went through the story of job which is Satan bets God that they can torture this guy job to the point where job will reject God and God says no uh uh to Satan like uh joob will never reject me and he doesn't but he is irritated by all of this torturing that goes on and the big twist in Yung is he says what happens in that moment is it's the first moment where both humanity and God have to realize that human beings are superior morally ethically psychologically to the Divinity a Twist spirituality with a Twist definite a Twist So Daniel I talked about that last week and even to the point where Yung says the reason why there was a a figure like Jesus why that was such an important figure was not to like forgive people of their sins but to forgive so that God could be forgiven for the sins against people so anyways we talked about it and by the end of the episode uh it's one of those things you hear these ideas and you're like huh what huh so I bounced off some people you know during the week as we like to do with the things that we're talking about uh friend of the show Justin ke uh you know Lake Forest college professor and uh I got to the end of it Daniel and he was like wh huh why because no one's heard anything like this and then you and I talked a little bit that you were talk telling it to people too so we thought we'd give a little bit of people's reactions of what people said so I guess I'll throw you the mic and figure out what people said when you told them the story yeah I was talking with uh a friend of mine who shall remain nameless but who is also a cousin but you know friends can be cousins too you know so um there's been a little bit of a Resurgence in my family of the younger generation kind of being more active in the church you know my my cohort if you will which is interesting you know um and so you know we were talking about all kinds of stuff and this came up so I was telling him about this this particular episode and this particular story and his eyebrows were plastered to the Apex of his skull for sure when I told him and I and I said what do you think about that H and he said well sometimes I think people be saying things just to be saying them to get a reaction out of other people and I said that's fair that's fair but he also has no idea who Carl Young was yeah I don't see young as doing that he's not he doesn't need to make a name for himself by getting some extra clicks on uh you know uh YouTube or something no he doesn't patreon page or something yeah no he doesn't need any more subscribers to his YouTube channel um that 70 something years old when he was writing this too so he was like he was writing it as as a reflection towards the end of his life not like to you know get some uh momentum going for an early life career yeah but the the deeper it opened up a a deeper discussion for us actually and I had said to him that it's sometimes less about the particular take and more about the intention of the take and I said for me I believe one of the intentions of this take was to flip the narrative in order to kind of crack people's minds open on aspects of the story that were absolutely taken for granted and moved on before and case in point I sent a message to somebody just today who knows the Bible very well and and I said um do you know the story of job and the answer was lost everything patience like none other uhhuh and I said well we're doing this EP these episodes on job which really are not about I said yes that's the perspective of job from an outside perspective but that's the interpretation I guess right that's been it's been given right but that's relating to job and job only because for many at least for my what I got out of that message that numerous aspects of these stories are only about the characters within the story not about the overarching characters who are part of of it so not only are we not looking at the the major players the marionet not just or the puppeteers not just the marionet right is that your the intention Behind these things is to change your mind right that that's mainly that's the that's the bigger part that's the to me for me that's the biggest takeaway and and having this conversation with my cousin and seeing this from my friend here I re it just hit me that like I don't think people are doing that very much with some of these things that are foundational to our culture to the minds of people just in general there's so many things that are taken I'm not going to say for granted but are taken put into the equation and then just continued on as if you know they're there and that's how it is but you know yeah we're just trying to to do more of that and I love uh moments like this when that is other people are doing the same thing so it was like it feeds into exactly like kind of my experiments with this too because I went out and tried to do what I would think of as being the g&t of this which you get other people's opinions you bounces off of people you see how people respond right yeah in an experiential and spiritual kind of a way and so it gets into the idea of like I think what you're talking about what would be conventional truths from a Buddhist point of view yeah things that are so close that you just assume them right and uh certainly tonric Buddhism which is kind of like our home base at least part of our home base for sure right yeah ask this question so I asked some folks about this too from a different point of view uh I know a lot of people from like the former Soviet Union raised in a completely secular society and even people who are Jewish but and that their Jewish identity meant something because that culture was so anti-semitic and so they would sort of identify sometimes maybe even you know it's a big deal to even like walk past the synagogue or something you know people saw you go in you might be in trouble you know so you know because of that you know uh there's they don't not like don't have any connection to Jewish identity some of them I don't some people are Jewish some people not but you know I asked and and one of the responses I got was oh yeah yeah that God's a psychopath that God's just a lunatic and I thought well that's such an interesting answer these are secular people didn't know the Book of Job you tell the Book of Job and they're like what and on the one hand it's a Pretty Natural response you know especially when you get to the point where you're like oh yeah yeah I killed all your kids but don't worry I gave you new ones don't worry about those old ones they gave you these new ones and people like what you know and so it just rolled off the tongue so easy and I thought that's an amazing statement about conventional truth because if you're raised in a culture that has more of that religiosity knows the right answer which is patience that's what you're supposed to you know patience loyal y faithfulness that's what the interpretation is supposed to be right so you're have raised in the culture where that's natural well then uh you know that's you're gonna give that answer or expected answer even if you're nonreligious person you'll know that's what the answer is supposed to be right if you don't share that conventional truth it's really easy for someone else to look at it and go yeah yeah that Old Testament God is a complete lunatic psychopath you know and uh that's not an incorrect interpretation either right so I told son the story and he wasn't he hasn't been raised in this religiosity either I was raised Catholic you know you we were raised in this in a religious setting like this and my son's reaction was very immediate too he's like oh oh God's a dick I was like yeah certainly you could say that and he was kind of like wait a minute he makes a bet on this nothing just to like then just [...] with this guy ruins him just for like a bet what a dick and I was like I don't know what to tell you you know but you know it's a very natural reaction it gets to this kind of thing of like to my mind I think it gets to the idea of like conventional truth right when you're outside of a belief system it all looks pretty different right than for the folks who are more within it who sort of already know the rules of what you're supposed to say I think even for Justin Keat friend of the show you know very thoughtful guy I mean he knows what the answer is supposed to be he's not a religious person right but he knows what the answer is supposed to be right because you're raised in the context of understanding what it's supposed to be but um so I just think that that's like kind of a fascinating experiment in that when you see people who like are not in the setting they don't know what the rules are supposed to be of this you know they don't know what the interpretation is supposed to be they just have gut level reactions and you know there they are and they're not in the framework of maybe the people you're talking about who are more religious or even Justin who's not religious but at least knows what you're supposed what the answer is supposed to be right so I I think it's yeah again that's the conventional truth idea right so pops up not infrequently in our little podcast but it is one of the really important ideas you know right think of certainly the tantas and dosm this whole idea of like wait a minute what are these conventional truths and then you look at them you know and I uh I I throw it out to you because it's the other big thing that got to me we talked about this in the first episode with this too but I think that's seems to be a major part of yung's Point too I think he wants to do what you're talking about he wants to challenge these things that go unchallenged like what you were saying earlier Daniel you know and he wants to turn things upside down he's a gnostic minded Dude too and then then we've done podcast episodes on narcissism you flip the script you turn everything upside down so he's flipping it upside down on people you know just like turning the whole doing the magic trick turn the glass of water over and like make the water not fall out make the wine not fall out or something intellectual magic um but I think that's you know like what he's trying to do which is why I think it's a conversation worth having because I'm always coming back to the idea like if you're not a religious person and you hear an episode like this you might be like this has nothing to do with me I don't care about some God that I don't think exists right and I don't care like okay it might be kind of a clever thing theologically or whatever but you know uh this you know this is a God that I don't think is anything and uh you know so why should I care about a discussion like this but I think the thing that Yung is really driving at even underneath all the con conversation about you know um Theology and so on is because these are still like the roots of the culture right even for those people who aren't religious this is still the underlying cultural framework and he's like basically saying okay it's not just a question of you know whether or not you believe in this particular religiosity some way or another it's I'm doing a little multitasking here because I gota pull something out for a little bit further up the road but it's also this idea of um you know because we're still living in this culture that streams out of these sources it's still a part of everybody's life even if you don't think that you care about this theology or this God or this commentary or whatever it is you know what I'm saying so we agree on that too suppose right Daniel yeah for sure okay yeah yeah yeah so this is why I think no matter who you are this is worthwhile thinking about even for the non-religious because these things are still going on and Yung is trying to hit this point right yeah and then in that sense I think the psychoanalysis of God you know what he's doing here is a psychoanalysis of the culture producing that version of divinity right yeah yeah and I could say for myself now I don't believe in that that version of divinity anymore I don't have an issue with what other people do like your your friend and cousin and so on make our own sex existential choices around this but I mean it's still a relevant conversation because of that idea that there's it's still like the deeper Trends you know that are happening right in the psychology anthropology is like we were talking about earlier of the culture it's still going on this way I get more you want to say about that before I push it a little bit forward no I think just one one piece not only is it the sort of like influential building blocks of society but it's also the influential building blocks of the people who raised you yeah which came from the society through since your parents and the people in the community and so on yeah yeah so I just wanted to add that you know sort of ancestral in you know uh distinction right oh that part too yeah yeah like it goes some of these things now that may not seem so prevalent right like religious or religiosity type discussions you say like like you're like you're bringing up oh yeah what's the point of this I don't you know I don't pay attention to these things right you might not that's true you as the listener I'm not saying you Eric but you as the listener might not but I'm pretty sure your parents did and they raised you and their parents did and their parents did and they raised them and they raised them and therefore all those things have come forward to influence the way that your you know our parents raised us and I'm speaking now for myself and The Listener that like some of these things are so innate that you don't even know to question them because you never felt like the need to previously they're in the culture everywhere yeah they're around you know they're just they're just around and once you start like I it's that question of once you I mean because we're obviously big on the push and the questioning yeah but once you start questioning you get to the point of like oh yeah this stuff is everywhere even though I think it's gone like I don't think of myself as a religious person I don't but people still act under the ideas yeah you know even like we were talking last time you know Jean Paul's observation like the culture now is you just took out the God but you left everything else the same kind of you know and maybe in a more complicated way so okay that was the next big thing I wanted to throw out which is like this is still like yahweh's culture sure on some in some ways I'm curious your reaction to this this stuff too Daniel so in a certain sense these are still like yahweh's rules and yahweh's rules are pretty tough rules yeah Yan Yahweh is not [...] around you can see it and in a way and this is really interesting is like uh Yahweh is like Saturn too and I think Jung gets this though he never explicitly says this but Yahweh is like Saturn I was talking with somebody close to my heart and I was saying it was interested in astrology and I said hey I done this answer to job and I just said what as geological figure do you see the Old Testament Divinity as and that then you know the person was just like Saturn it's like completely obvious you know I was like yeah it's Saturn you know I explain a little bit about the Saturn of it but yeah yeah it's funny that you mentioned that because I have heard that also and not from you I heard that from a friend of mine who is of cabalistic n uh influence you know okay yeah yeah yeah and um and he said the same and he I I don't know how it came up but it did and that was what he thought as well so okay so I brought a little quote because I went to one of my old astrological books just to like kind of like think about this I grabbed it over here the astrolog the astrological Saturn has always been associated with the letter of the law rather than the spirit so it's about the law right the gnostics and early cabalists identified Saturn with the old the god of the Old Testament who they regarded as a tyrannical father of obsessed with the rigid enforcement of the law and indeed there may be very a very ancient symbolic link between Saturn in Yahweh for yahweh's Sabbath or holy day is Saturday Saturn's day so I just went into like you know there's a kind of a a very interesting book it's called you know Mythic astrology I think I got sitting over here but I won't bother holding it up to the camera but anyway was Mythic astrology and like I just went to their chapter on Saturn and it just like the quote just popped out have read the book in the past you know but you know you read so many things you take so much in that particular little snippet you know like sits there and I just like hit it again right away and I was like yeah that exactly the thought I was having and there it was so but you know it's it's uh okay so your cabalist uh your cabalist uh representative was thinking that way too uhhuh yeah yeah so this is and if you don't know anything about like Saturn as a Mythic figure and people may not obviously we're doing Jung so you're going to talk about archetypes and this and all that stuff Saturn is an [...] and uh this is actually going synchronistic in my life too because I actually went to a book store not this weekend but the weekend before and I stumbled across this book in the philosophy section which is uh just called [...] a theory I gotta read that book and maybe we'll do a podcast episode that [...] hopefully it's not stinky uh I think it's gonna be a stinky subject matter because those people are difficult yeah um yeah but um anyways Saturn's a dick for sure per my son's comment and um and so you know when the real famous stories is that he's like eating his own children he castrated his own father with a sickle the sky gu Uranus and then uh because he's afraid of his own Sons then because he was such a an ass hat um that uh you know he actually won't let any of his children live he devours them you know and uh Jupiter escapes by like his mom I think disguises like a rock as a baby like puts a little Bonnet on her I don't know what that would even look like but Saturn devours The Rock thinking he devoured his child and then it turns out that you know Jupiter escapes and then turns around and exacts the the Vengeance back again but um you know it's a it's a demented story but it TS you something about this archetype you know it's a it's an oppressive archetype you know like they're talking about the tyrannical father caring about the letter of the law rather than the spirit if you know astrology and we have done a lot of astrology stuff it'd be fun to do it so probably future episodes yeah for sure still have tons of we actually haven't done anything on the cabalo really it's amazing three years with nothing all in the All In The Dock of things to talk about but um you know in astrology Saturn's called the greater malefic and it's the idea when Saturn gets involved and the Char or gets involved and Trigger in people and all that's to the negative right and uh sometimes you hear this thing about the Saturn return if you ever heard that phrase where Saturn gets back to where you were at the time you were born it's usually around like when you're 28 years old and um give or take and this really unpleasant period of your life where Saturn starts like putting the kabash on you again so it's like kind of has this reputation as being this really unpleasant thing and in a certain sense then it's a source of like constriction and limitation and walls and disconnection and oppression and you know so so I think I think part of the point Yung is trying to make is that like yeah if you look at these stories they're coming out of this cultural stream and we're still living in the flow of that stream like down the road from it and a lot of it is these senses of like restriction and uh uh uh walls and disconnection and all of this kind of stuff repression and whatever I mean he mentions it in different ways in answer to joob but he does talk about like there's a famous thing in Genesis on the second day of creation where it's the one day God said isn't good there's nothing good about the day and it's the day where he creates division he divides the heavens and the Earth he divides things it's the day of Separation the day of division the day of restriction the day of Border boundary wall and it's it's Saturn it's the it's the not good day you know so if you look through Genesis it's one of those funny little things but it it's commented on all over the place if you get into the cabala and you get into other young is doing it too he's obviously read the cob lists you know and they're like oh yeah that's the day that isn't good that's the day of restriction that's the day of like restraint that's the day of division it's not good so uh um so yeah so especially it's yeah force of limitation all this other kind of stuff and so there's an element of the culture I think part of what Y is getting to also me is there's an element of the culture we're living in which is saturnian right and you live lives where there's just a lot of restriction right and uh so there you go I wanted to get your opinion on this though in a kind of interesting way because the other experiment I did was with my daughter right so I thought I'd see what you what you what your impression was so you know my daughter is she's in Paris she's studying at the cbone for the semester and she's having a ball right and one of the things she had to read that we talked about when she was reading a little bit was n the German philosopher and she's reading a lot of heady stuff right and I think it's an interesting time for her because she's reading a lot of hey stuff in the way that maybe she hadn't when she was younger you know and she's like committed she's like doing the readings and she's trying really hard you know and uh she's learning a lot so she read this thing called the birth of tragedy and in this book n talks a lot about dionan versus appoloni and dionan is like sort of more the free expressive whatever somewhat chaotic potentially right that would be its bad side but you know the freedom aspect of things and then the appoloni which is order but also can be like structure that's repressive and so on right it's kind of Yin and Y so when we were talking I was like yeah this is yin and yang right like these are these opposites and young is fascinated by these things too and he knows n for sure yes he obviously he's read him and he knows all this stuff and he talks about it so so this is after you know these Greek gods right but I was looking at my daughter and I talked with her on the phone during the week and I was like you know your life is completely Dian because she has like no restrictions almost I mean she does her school workor but you know she's living in this this time period where where you know she's uh uh she's in France she's living in Paris she's super happy on the weekends she goes to Prague she goes to London she's in Florence out at some Vineyard out in the country know she was in Amsterdam you know and uh and I was like your life is completely dionan and she's an incredibly happy human we had this deal that we were going to do shrooms together that was one of our things we were supposed to do you know and we had a nice person who gave us shs but we didn't do them when we were supposed to yeah yes but to be done but you know she was with friends in Amsterdam so she did these shrooms but she did I don't know the details of this Daniel it was some other like I guess she was saying it's something be I know some other version of the plant or something that's more mild you might understand this more than I do because your understanding is that these things are much better than mine but she did something that was a more mild thing and then the you know she was like with a couple other friends who I met when I was in in France and they were laying in a field and she was saying yeah I felt all the connection to Nature and it was really cool and her friends are always saying about her and this is a repeating thing about my daughter where they all say you should have like a like something inside of you that's like that is like uh you know more like your internal baggage or you know your inner troubles and traumas and you know you have more depth to you you're not just what's we see there's more inside of you we just have to like get through to find like your inner core experiences that are more your traumas and dark sides and whatever and lean's always like no those things don't exist it's really funny and now I was like yeah they don't there's nothing there's nothing in there she's just like an incredibly happy human who is enjoying her life in a very Sagittarian free willing experiential way you know that's and so she was she did the she did the shrooms and they were laying there and I think later on her friend said that you know they were were talking and Le was like there's nothing else here to see I'm on the shrooms there's nothing else coming out this is just me and your friend was like oh my God I think you're actually I believe you now you're just a happy dionan person and I was like uh so we were talking about it and she was laughing because it was her friend finally agreed like okay you know I have to accept this is who you are yeah so you know her life is like dianing it's it's Freedom it's travel it's experience you know and I we were talking I said you know I think this is why you're approaching the life the way you are because underneath the surface you can kind of you're getting that this life is GNA turn epolon and as [...] lat this life is GNA turn saturnian not just app baloni it's gonna go Saturn and you don't want to do it and she was like you know I think there might be something to that you know because she like she keeps like I'm going to keep preserving my freedom I'm I'm going to keep preserving my freedom I'm going to keep preserving my autonom she keeps doing this over and over again and it's all the time because I'm just a happy person and I don't want to get to that point where the job becomes saturnian right or the relationship becomes saturnian like she doesn't want to do those things because she kind of sees it that way you know so she's living this dionesium part of life which I think people can when they're younger you know I think they can kind of culture in their 20s they can live dionan but then bang all of a sudden it's the old Yahweh rules kick in the Saturn rules kick in I think lean gets this you know my daughter Alina she picks up on this we call her beans because she came out like a little bean so I think beans gets this you know she was like a little baby like a little bean and you know we were talking about it and she's like yeah there probably is something to that you know because you know she's very at a distance even with her relationships with uh you know men and things you know she's a heterosexual CIS girl and uh and she's very like nope I don't want to be weighed down by any of these [...] dudes no don't want be weighed down by them you know they're just going to like make things a drag and it's interesting because she then she she'll occasionally talk with me about this and she'll say yeah you know so and so had this big drama with this guy and it's ruining their BL she's watching this on all her friends and and and it's she's kind of like a she's a fascinating human you know I really appreciate her and sometimes I talk to her and I'm like you have this quality in you I don't have that as much as you do she's like yeah this is who I am you know I don't carry these other things but anyways it's partially about her but partially also just about the culture I think it can be dionan up to a point and then bang it goes Saturn does that make sense to you yeah I mean the question is is that a product of external life or a product of our choices and when I say that I mean as we get older we we are taught or shown that increase in accumulation of things is part of being successful and therefore as my teacher Andre would say the more you own things the more your things own you and I think that responsibility of owning things and things owning you including relationships people right responsibility financial responsibilities pets all this other kind of stuff professional and career responsibilities right there all of that yeah you know rent or mortgage or whatever you know as a means of survival on one hand or as it a means of I think on a maybe a more evolved um expression of living as like a creative outlet for yourself even if it's still business but you're creatively doing that that's inherent in those choices as as well so I think like you can certainly pick the can down the road which is a lot of time what and what college ends up being right is you try you try and stay in that state of openness but to your point then there sometimes can be chaos that that is in there as well that is you know I guess maybe emblematic of the youth what do they say that the youth is wasted on the young right you know but simultaneously that doesn't always give you the the the the typ vehicle through which you get to express your Shen through in this lifetime in in in a certain way but then on the other hand if you are so tightly bound to a a a particular Lane that you cannot express yourself because that's just a pinhole you know of of living that it becomes repressive and then that kind of like your like your daughter's friend was saying well where is your repressed stuff where is the resentment where's all the other layers inside of you where you have this you know whatever this other psychological stuff inside yeah where's the stuff that you're stuffing down where is the place of repr repression how have you how have you been existent on the same plane that I have and not be repressed as I have you know and it's a question because I think people are looking to resonate with other people that feel the same way that's why if you're from somewhere and you meet somebody from that same place you might feel an instant kind kinship or something we're always looking to build bonds to connect with people to say oh you were there so even though I'm having my own experience and you're having your own experience if we experience the same thing then maybe we have some similarities between us because we have that together and that might not be the case actually you know and so I like I said I think there's a there's an internal uh part of this that I think is is a facet of growing older and wanting to express yourself via uh professional means but then there's also like as you grow older and you lose the support of the community when I mean Community I mean maybe maybe more family the the money means for which you can survive in life you lose that as you Golder and so then you have to replace that obviously with the your own financial means and then therefore you step into that kind of Satan um confines of society's Dr Brothers if you will because that's part because I don't know yet and this is something I'm also working on I don't know yet how to be in that aspect of the game and not be part of the game at the same time but that's I guess maybe you know what we're trying to discuss here right is how do you be involved without being involved to that level in which you feel like you are compromising yourself to do the things that you need to do I suppose if there wasn't any way of not living in Yahweh Saturn's world this podcast would make no sense yes I talk about it yeah you're just [...] but like I think the the reason to talk about it is you're not you know it has a lot to do with like okay yeah I mean I'm gonna give my own two cents on it right I definitely have that dosty vibe that like comes up all the time which is like yeah this is going to go very constrictive know like there are very very confined expectations of like what we did the whole thing on relationships what the relationships are supposed to look like what the work is supposed to look like what the family is supposed to look like where you're supposed to live and so on and so on and so on and so on very it's very defined and I think deep down everybody kind of knows this people know what these rules are I think they're very like internalized right I think you know uh the Yahweh saturnian rules are there you know what I mean you uh it was very interesting because I had a friend whose daughter was like well these are the rules you go through and you sew your Wild Oats and your dionan and then that stops and then then your life becomes like this and she and then she was just she was just reiterating this as like a teenager and I you know talk with my friend and I was like well this is amazing because she obviously has internalized this coat right you know this is the coat it's even a different code because maybe as a teenage girl you wouldn't be able to sew your Wild Oats and live wild now you can be Dian my daughter can do this right progress right you know before you couldn't do this so no you could not this is better already but you know I think you can sniff ahead and say oh I know where this story is supposed to go now because my daughters internalize these rules too this is my dianing time and then bang it stops yes my Satan time now it's all about like the restriction and the confinement and the taking on the responsibilities and the roles and the so on and so on right which are like actually they're Yahweh they're not they're the old ones and once you get that then like your life is not that different probably from like my mom's right you work you have your nuclear family and you do your thing you know yeah and that's it and that's the that's the old rules so I could see that tension in my daughter's life you know and it was kind of interesting having the NRA language I mean that's a very kind of gin and Tantra thing for me I could go like yeah you've read this book now so now we can look at this and have this conversation see Dian versus aalon in this how's that feel to you and you could see I I mean I you know she's a very it's interesting to see you know what she'll think about that going forward but she she was kind of like yeah I could sense what you're talking about and I don't want to have to be in that Satan place so what do I do about it you know though it is true that a lot of her thought processes are like okay I'm gonna escape to England for two years and then I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that and she's like you could say it's for stalling but it's actually kind of interesting it's not exactly even a for it's like it's not obvious what the for stalling is you know it's what she really is it seems like she's optimizing her freedoms for the longest possible time that she can she doesn't want to be in Saturn World well and I think it's not a fun amusement park I think many people it's a Saturn world after all that's a depressing [...] ride well I mean I think I think many many people try and do this and actually like looking at it from a slightly different Viewpoint from myself anytime that I have a patient who is a younger kind of teenage person I always encourage them to take a gap year after high school because to that point like you're G to be an adult for far longer than you're going to be anything else in your life and when I mean adult I mean like you know household owning not maybe not home ownership but like apartment or roommates but like being responsible for paying your own rent and your own own food and all the things what's the harm what's the harm in taking a little bit of extra time to develop into that being while still having the the openness and creativity and a little bit of chaos at that same time I mean forever if you do it for too long you I think you end up losing the ability to to take on the responsibility that you need to you become stunted and I say that because there are many people in my life who are this way you know because they were they were not reigned in at all you know and so now it's like impossible to doonan or something if you're going to be n about yeah yeah exactly but yeah I mean on the other hand like why dive into it so immedi why dive into it so immediately problem I see that Daniel is what what if you're gonna go in the Saturn's world what is the gap year even doing for you I think you have to figure out a way to get the [...] out of the Saturn world I agree but at least it gives people some it gives them time to perspective to to figure out what you think that means yeah yeah and then you you provide I think people have to be provided with the opportunity to choose something different from their experience and if all you are doing is being stacked up from one box car talking about like yeah yeah if you're talking about like teenagers being raised in the states a lot of times in like maybe a Suburban setting or something you're not having a lot of experience of the world you need to go out I I hear exactly what you're saying I understand that encouragement a little bit better now you need to go out and like see some other places do some other things have a little bit of a of an experience of getting out you know yeah like like your own life not the life that was chosen for you yeah yeah yeah you know what I'm saying and you mentioned that a couple I think you mentioned it one other time at least in the podcast has came up yeah but I get it in the context of what you're talking about yeah and for you know people like this who are you know might be influential on the culture in some way shape or form later like why why not what I mean literally what is the what is the rush I I understand life is short we should take but like does that mean that you need to immediately go from your high school directly into uh a four-year University where you're gonna take a bunch of shitty classes and drink a lot of beer or something like that you know like I me for linaa she's having the ball this has actually been quite good yeah it's interesting because there's a kind of a little bit of a balance in her if I just look at her as like a little mini case study she's in a quarter system but she's taking a lot of times five classes because they're free it's just the way they set up you can take any number of classes you want you're just you know you're not paying by the class you're just paying to be there right I like that and so she's just taking whatever she wants to take and and she's doing more than what she has to to graduate yeah it's kind of an interesting thing she's not just like uh at the party like you know like all the time there's a certain kind of thing that she's building in herself sure I mean the thing that fascinates me about and I don't know where this is going to go for her but like if she's sniffing out that the general tendency of the adult life is to be Yahweh Satan I she's not wrong that's correct yeah you've pegged it diagnosis A+ now you have to look for the Cure yeah cure that means for you you know but like uh yeah I don't think she's wrong at all and I think as far as what the young thing that's the importation of the old rules those rules are still there do we agree with that or do you yeah they're still there underneath the surface it's going to be very constrictive those are Saturn's rules right this is the rules of the game it's this schedule this order this structure this life this rational life relation life this family life this professional life this this boom that's what it is right it's atorian so anyways yeah yeah it's gonna be interesting to see how she I that's her own choice of how she figures that out that's a very conversation we've had you know this is your choice to figure it out I can't tell you how to do that for you I know how I try to do it for me you have to like this is something you're going to figure out for your own self it was interesting to see that like I think she's getting this thing it's clicking for her this is what I'm trying to figure out how to like get out of in a way right interesting but anyway that's the reason this matters whether you're like I don't care about like some theology about some Old Testament book I never read right about a God that some people made up that I don't believe in that's the reason why it still matters and I think that's like yung's underlying message of this he's trying to say like this is the culture right that you're participating in which I guess gets us to wisdom other part of this right because we're gonna like maybe take the Book of Job apart in a couple of different little episodes and the major figures first story was kind of job and Yahweh big next figure to show up on the scene for us will be Sophia right and um if you're cool to go on with it you ready to talk about Sophia yeah yeah okay so I was gonna ask you about it yeah so with Jung and Sophia so I have to say Daniel I'm interesting to see your reaction this will be like hopefully ending in another big finish another episode with us going huh so here's his take so a more shocking theology from Carl Yung so Sophia is the goddess of wisdom like that word sopia means wisdom right and yun's take is that part of the his analysis of Yahweh his Psych ological analysis of Yahweh is that the trouble with Yahweh is Yahweh is cut off from femininity he's cut off from femininity in multiple ways he's cut off from femininity because he's not given a Divine female counterpart cut off so there's no goddess to go along with the god there's no yinyang pairing there's no Shiva and shaki cut off from femininity so he has no True Divine partnership and he's also cut off from femininity inside of himself so he's cut off from his own inner world and the the yinyang balance inside of him internally is off then some part of his nature is cut off and yungi tends to use this worda or animus for the interal Yang Parts the feminine or the masculine Parts you could overplay this I suppose but that's his idea right and so he's cut off internally as well uh and that means he's cut off from Sophia his natural partner which means he's cut off from his own wisdom which means he can't have insight about himself because he's cut off from the parts of him that would be able to show the wisdom he's psychologically repressed and therefore can't show wisdom which is why Yung argues he's constantly shocked surprised and duped over and over and over again when he's omniscient why is his omniscience not working the reason his omnicient is not working is because he's internally splintered and cut off from his own wisdom and cut off externally and internally so in that sense he's walking around like as this psychologically fragmented being right because he has these repression problems and that's then yung's argument for why he's always getting like tricked why is the serpent come up and trick him like immediately because he should be able to see that coming but he can't and then he's shocked or in the Book of Job why is it that it's so easy for Satan just to like dup him into this idiotic bet because he doesn't have his own wisdom he doesn't need you know he doesn't need that bet he shouldn't need it he's supposed to be [...] omnicient but he he can't see it why because he's cut off from wisdom so in part it's kind of an interesting word game on the word Sophia as wisdom but it's ref referencing like that you know uh that correlation between wisdom and femininity and the goddess right and it's not an accident then too to say or you know it's an interesting point to say that you know even in the Buddhist tantas wisdom associated with the feminine energies right masculine energies with bliss feminine energies with wisdom and he's cut off from wisdom he's cut out from like true partnership he can't he doesn't have female Partners to interact with and then he's cut off internally from his own parts of his psyche that would be able to provide in the wind wisdom and so since he's split he can't see and he's psychologically blind how's that for a thing what do you make out of that yeah that's a deep one I mean so you have a couple things happening there one you are viewing the god of the Old Testament as inherently masculine right it's a he which it is it is right right right and so but just so we that word you know kind of distinct about that you know so you have to it's interesting it's not like the creative force of all that's not that's not the Divinity that young is talking about yeah no no no yeah it's a heat yeah they're talking about that being as a he specifically so that's that's first the other part that I'll get to in a second gambling has certainly been around for a long time hasn't it I mean this book this this book says it's going on in the heavens yeah I mean they're just you know this is like before the fall there was gambling there was gambling which is you know I mean we like to take different takes on story so there there's mine right there you know like gambling is an ever they were giving odds to the other Angels I'm wondering I want 20 on job I'm putting yeah he's like I got a minus 550 on this guy off of himself so you know I'll take that action gambling everywhere on this right there's no play no way he makes it past the boils I'm throwing in another 20 I guess DraftKings is far more closer to Divinity you know than than not yeah yeah yeah um but yeah so so you have that as a as a masculine so that that stands out first but then also like that is true though I mean that's not a hidden thing that's a Mas yeah no yeah for sure and they're always referencing as the father I mean it's it's blatant you know it's not the da no it's not the cabalistic a s it's not that this is a masculine Divinity no and the other what I also described that kind of uh ubiquitous creative presence to my cousin who was you know a little bit more active in the church now I described it as love I said what if I just call that love can we we can agree on that right that that's a universal positive presence of connection you know um so it's masculine is number one but then the other part is that like there is an inherent separation within him and therefore within us and even though like you can make that observation from the fact that he was trick the the question that I the observation or SL question that I have is that when is that disunion addressed in terms of a remedy in uh in yung's book yeah in Young's book or just even in like even in young is gonna have his take he's gonna have his take on this okay and but anyways yeah I don't want to like just make it about y you're asking a bigger question I suppose yeah like answer would be never that's the whole problem it's never it's like run through the culture this splitting you know what I mean and so then I mean I am sort of brought back to our femininity episodes that we did definitely uses the word patriarchy multiple times in the book from yeah I mean that seems to be present and then if I'm going to go one step further standing on my own logic you know which is probably not logically s sound um whatever no one's judging sure it'll be logically just fine but okay what about the idea that maybe this Society is uh satanic is that a word is yeah I go with it I like it okay that Satan but satanic I like it too yeah okay that this that this Society is saturnian but that maybe it wasn't always and then that my own question for my question does God have a chart chart an astrological chart that's influencing because if you can look at at at Saturn's um attributes and say gez that certainly looks like this character from this book no offense to those people who you know take the Old Testament and Yahweh as you know absolute Divinity I'm not I'm not in any way disparaging your viewpoints I'm just for the context of this conversation using that and that way you know was there a time that maybe before the Old Testament because the Old Testament news flash ain't that old yeah yeah it's not it's not uh it's old but there's some older stuff there is there is some older stuff which is I I reminded my cousin about I said yeah new testament's kind of old but not as old as the Old Testament and guess what that's not even that old either in comparison you know so like it's not the new kid on the Block and so then if that's my the basis of my argument like could Society it would seem to me relatively logical that Society might have been influenced by a a different planet or maybe Society had attributes that would represent a different planet's uh Persona if you will which would then give us uh a different kind of existence you know a more egalitarian or communal existence which would you know give Credence to some of the episodes that we did on on femininity and how their view or at least that couple authors view on society was way way way back when before there were quote unquote sons of man there used to be more matriarchal feminine influence in the world that was idea it um I mean as far as like the astrology of it like there's kind of a weird thing in astrology because Saturn used to be the the farthermost planet you could see right and as other planets were found in the solar system it was supposed to be the idea that that was challenging aspects of like saturnian this right so when you found Uranus outside of s pattern then you get revolutions right like the the French Revolution or something or the American Revolution they're kind of born on the urine Uranian times Uranian Uranian times uh you know and then you get the neptunian times as you find that you know like so I think it's interesting you can kind of talk that way you know that there can be like astrological changes that might have influences on our culture with function and think right hold on is PL a planet or not anymore I know it wasn't wasn't it wasn't astrological part of this is kind of interesting because it was a planet right and then that's a planet of power and big business and so on so that's one of the interpretations of that right it's corporate right it's power one the interpretations and now that they're taking it off as a planet now we're like wrestling over what that means you know it's a big fight over are we G to let these big structures these big hierarchical oppressive structures like dominate our world or not that's one of the big fights right and if they do Pluto death destroy the planet right bring him back bring him back I I'll take him yeah I know it's interesting so it's like it does create like what you're saying is like this is a concept right it's talk my son because we've were having these conversations and I was trying to teach him we have these little artistic conversations I tried to teach him about music and so there's a John lennin song called God and uh and it goes the first line of the song goes God is a concept by which we measure our own pain say it again God is a concept by which we measure our own pain and I I played it for my son because this is a very simple song with this very strong meaning to it and you can hear how he sings it and my son was like oh that's cool and my son also thinks of God as a concept meaning that he thinks it was invented by people right uh at least this God that we're talking about here and then has a history right yeah so at some point I don't know when the exact date would be when someone came up with this Divinity to get an actual birth chart of the moment or something but yeah have a moment right a time frame when the when the when the alignments were right to come up with this concept but like you know it is certainly true that Saturn was the outermost thing Saturn was the you know the the boundary of everything like in the solar system that was the last planet You Could See Without a telescope in the sky so totally yeah goad yeah yeah totally kind of like not off topic but I I finished that Brad Warner book and I'm GNA email him so he can come on because I do like I do like him uh he has a song because apparently uh John Lennon had a song named God right that's the name of the song and then you too had a song called God part two oh I didn't know that okay yeah and then I finished that book that you got me you know about a year ago from Brad Warner the other side of nothing which you know I don't need to plug his book but like Brad Warner is a good author as you know Zen influenced author and is good is worth reading his stuff uh he has a song called God part three and I finished the book today uhuh and at the end well that's really funny synchronicity again look at that yeah he was I just happened to like he he goes okay bonus track here's my song with my band called God part three because he said if you two could do a part two I think I'm better than you two so I might as well do a part three yeah yeah yeah this stuff gets invented so my son we were talking about I was like you know we were talking about like why it is in school that people like dudes who act like dicks I was like yeah that's part of the culture you know it's like chimpanzee Behavior or something you know the one dude tries to get on top of the other dude and it feels uncomfortable right it's like you make yourself feel better by standing on the head of the other person kind of right it's very typical kind of like King of the Hill grade school boy Behavior but just people can do that anywhere really yeah and I was going like you know it's part of this whole thing like in the John London song because once you get the idea that it's a concept you you start going it's a huge hierarchical concept yes God's the biggest dick using my son's language and then underneath that there's the king and he's an [...] and then there's the the the Dukes and the Lords and the whoever and stuck and they're standing on top of you and then underneath that till eventually you get someone down on the bottom and everyone's smooshing down on them and it's a hierarchy and some person invented that that was painful for me like I realized that over the course of three years I was doing this podcast I had to face the truth of that and it's like uh that's a painful realization that that's part of that concept yeah okay but wait there's more about Sophia so I should finish it before we yeah yeah finish it yeah okay so so now because our poor y is cut off internally and externally he does this thing this is Jung's interpretation this will end on a big finish what he does is instead he turns to Israel and he makes Israel his partner because he doesn't Israel is like the people that's are talked about in the Old Testament the people of the Covenant he turns to them and he projects his needs for a partner onto this group group of people that he's now affiliated with himself with right so now they're his partner they're his feminine partner right they're now put in the role of being his wife for something he's now their that's his that's his feminine surrogate partner that he's projecting his needs onto and so then he treats the relationship then per Jung what's happening in a lot of this Old Testament kind of stuff is he's then treating Israel like he's a possessive husband he's a jealous angry possessive Divinity who's constantly guarding and modern the behavior of his spouse and that's why he's doing it because he's cut off from the possibility of feminine equal femininity an equal feminine part parnerships and instead he projects this thing onto Israel and that's why he's always in these moods because he's quick to jealous rage if she doesn't do what he wants and so he's monitoring and guarding her behavior and then that's the psychological problem within God this jealousy possessiveness these outbursts that's why it's so easy to threaten him that's why Satan can come and go you know that that job really isn't that loyal she isn't she isn't you know and then he's like easy to like trigger that's his thing big finish again to an episode I like that though that's interesting now is another one of these situations where you know we did these episodes on Yung and his personal life and all that and like like if you at the time he was writing this and he's writing this as an older guy he's in the 70s he's already lived out his life you know but you can kind of see that he the way this looks to me it's you could see it now if you know about his own personal life better like the way we were talking about he was challenging all of these societal codes you know coming up with his own view of the world and he's a very challenging person and you could see like in his personal life he wanted up being sort of a polyamorous person and so he's like again he's fighting these traditional ways of defining things and then he's doing it here again he's coming back to this idea like see this is people's concepts of what love is what relationship is it's not good you know it's pathological it's possessive and it's narrow and it's uh there's all of these rules and codes and all these things and if the person breaks them then you know people are going to be super pissed off just like God that they invented he's doing that actually in this really kind of funny way if you know about his life it's like reads even clearer yeah almost seems like a testament of like okay you know like this is the problem in the culture all the way up to God because it's a restrict it's a restrictive repressive jealous Ru driven insecure thing that then acts out in these kind of like jealous rages and it's like kind of in his writings in these funny ways it like again I hope these episodes make some for people who are interested in Yung I hope this like adds something to their understanding of Yung because once you know more about his life you see him a little bit differently some of the things pop out differently to your ear right you know and all of a sudden like because he has Parts in the memories dreams Reflections where he'll say like jealousy is really bad jealousy is the opposite of love and he like he comes out with these things and you're like they would slide by you know and funny way but if you kind of know more I think about his life and what he was working towards the way he was trying to reinv Vision a life to be different where he was obviously trying to like get out of like certain kinds of like cultural understandings of our life had to be we're talking about his relationship thing now but he's doing it all over the place right then all of a sudden he reads different then you're like okay I understand more why he's saying the things he says based on even the simplest understanding of the concepts of his life he's a different person and a different writer you know and that that's one that like when I've listened I was telling Justin Keith friend of the show about like you know when you read about Yung they don't ever talk about his life you know like you don't necessarily know this about him and especially about Book of Job I was like he did like a chat gtpp J chat GTP jessen loves that thing and so he was like well let me ask about the Book of Job And it said some stuff and I was like no that's not the right interpretation because people don't really talk about him honestly first of all maybe because it's just too controversial right the stuff he says is too edgy and then when you really get it you know and then also like you don't know his life enough you know he not he's not like a it isn't integrated together in the understanding but was I mean I hope that like in some level like if you were interested in young this is a different take very different yeah and it's an older guy writing this I he's like looking it back on the experience of his whole life he's not a young dude he's an older guy going okay here let me give you a summary of some stuff that I experienced in my life I'll share it back I'll do it as a commentary right right looks like this book that you know whatever but like look at it it's gonna say a lot inside of it it's gonna be there you know between the lines you're gonna see what I'm saying because I think again for what we were talking about earlier this could just seem like well it's an old biblical book it's an abstract commentary it could be clever but like who cares but I think he's talking about something that's more at least my read on it it's something more like driven by his own personal experiences whether they be in his own life or his clinical life or whatever he's trying to say something about the culture right that he's been working with and kind of like in his own sort of probably little battles with and different ways throughout the entirety of his life and then watching how this is also maybe true in his patient population yeah and was you think it's a shocker for an end yeah no I like that I mean it's like really different take again right but it does have it has a psychological explanation behind it it's interesting because he does act like a jealous spouse he's afraid you know I think um and we don't do this too much as we're recording but may maybe the next episode that we do Eric and this would be kind of a teaser for those of us that for those listeners who are rocking with us all the way to the end here we could talk about maybe integrating that part uhhuh you know and maybe we could talk about you know just from our own sort of experiences you know in meditation or via study or books or you know whatever like how would somebody consciously integrate the you know the wisdom tradition within themselves how can someone or in a grander sense I don't want to make it be about masculine and feminine we we've done this before but specifically the the the wisdom component like um transcending our own ignorances intentionally via wisdom and and how that might look for somebody how would they go about like putting this into into like practical application so if what if the premise of his psychological Viewpoint of of Yahweh is true then that would mean true of the culture right culture culture yeah yeah true of the culture then that means that everybody's influenced by one way or another you know either actively or or or as a byproduct of just its resonance in the life around us right well then that would mean at least for me that that for for those who want to take a more empowered approach to their life would consciously do something to reintegrate those pieces that are not current or at least that they're not consciously aware of and so this might be a really nice opportunity for us to kind of not that we're not being ourselves but to talk from this perspective of like how how we have done this or some you know tangible tip definitely being myself here yeah no no yeah no I'm I'm saying too much of myself here but being myself you know what's interesting about that is probably like what jumps out to me too is like kind of like again the Buddhist tantas or whatever Tantra you like because you're doing a lot on femininity yeah you know and then that raises that weird interesting archetypal question if I spend time meditating on the feminine tantric goddesses is that a way of tapping into wisdom you know because they're going to make you like so this is again this you know again there's different tantri traditions and different meditative traditions and so on but like I do it every day where I meditated myself in female form right and then like this tradition the comment is I'm meditating myself in a sopia form and then you know just archetypally when you do that does it change your your feeling you know what I mean partially about wisdom partially about love and compassion too right because sometimes there understanding like if you talk about like Tara as a female figure yeah let's not go too far I want I want I want to save you want to save it okay you want to sa okay but that might be something worthwhile but that would be like that raises that interesting archetypal question when you actually tap into that archetype through that visualization yeah does that start to change your attitude about wisdom okay I we could do it like we did Sophia yeah think about that we could probably integrate this too because one of the other things to talk about is obviously there's still JC yeah in the pipeline to talk about what he means to Jung um and there's a couple of other complication things but let's we'll figure it out we'll talk during the week you know if we're closing up soon closing up shop because we gotta bounce around 10ish when our recording time it's getting late in the evening for us for recording uh but if like that's the idea I think you know we probably could figure out ways of like giving a little shout out to young but also making sure we do the commentary and what that would mean yeah I mean that that's essentially what I would that's essentially what I'm talking about here is taking it and then doing the commentary on it as we're doing it because I think it it adds again because you brought this up from the beginning right you're like oh I'm not a religious person or I this this book doesn't have much meaning for me why does this even matter why am I listening to this and like we're doing we're we're presenting the materials but then in a in a very kind of Buddhist way then they'll do commentary on the materials which which makes the materials more tangible which we're totally doing as we're giving it but I think at least one of the things that people have expressed um a little bit to me over the years is the the desire to like hear how to how to implement things you know like from us from people who you know have taken time and have you know been in meditation and you know like you know live this kind of life and so not necessarily looking for like quote unquote advice or anything like that but just some some guidance because because we're always talking about these kinds of things oh Sor sorry cut you off no and just to make it you know to make it a little bit even more simplistic okay here's here's how we view this here's how we view this here here's how we view that you know and I think that that has um a real motivational factor for people to do what it is that we're hoping that they do you know it's like interesting about it is like sometimes you can call all of these conversations what they call analytic meditations yeah someone comes along and presents you something to think about oh [...] wait a minute I hadn't thought about like these stories and the way Yung is talking about them damn what do I think that means to me and you contemplate a little bit that would like analytic meditation but then you could also do like other things like visualizations you know and that was the what we were talking about a little little bit at least you know if you get into like Buddhist Tantra you you see yourself in feminine form well that means you're tapping into some archetypal aspect of wisdom or something through that you know what I mean well let's talk about get into it okay yeah yeah all right well so what okay so end end then Jung doesn't let you down at the end he's gonna say something where you're like what yeah that's right I never heard that before so young doesn't let you down so he came through again thank you thank you Uncle Carl way to go Uncle Carl well also thank you Uncle Eric as always my friend thank you thank you you know um wonderful as as as always I I enjoy our discussions here um and thank you to our audience you know whether you're uh number one or number 301 I don't know where we are and I don't count you know some people count I don't count I don't even like counting to be totally honest um but you know we appreciate all the love so if you want to hit us up feel free to leave a comment in the YouTube uh section uh like subscribe all that good stuff uh if you're checking us out on Apple podcast leave us a review it definitely helps out the show and also subscribing does help out the algorithm so it is in our favor to do that to just to get us pop up on other people's feeds because uh like you I feel like our work has benefit to other people and it would be good for them to see it um and yeah and if you want to hit us up on an email Jin and Tantra gmail.com or feel free to you know send us a Instagram message uh JY and Tantra podcast we do we are active we do check those things and so you know we'll get back to you if you have some questions comments concerns or just thoughts we'd be happy to uh we'd be happy to hear from you we do we do love it it's kind of like a fuel for our TNT if you will so anyways uh for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you'all on the next one good luck with everything peace yeah