[Music] what's going on everybody thanks for tuning in to Jin and Tantra spirituality with a Twist uh we have Daniel driving the ship tonight co-pilot by one Katie Peterson Katie thanks for joining us thanks for having me of course so um you know we're we're in our kind of like new phase here where we have our other contributors uh coming on and so I'm happy to be having these uh conversations with actually good friends of mine so it's it's it's nice to have meaningful conversations that we can prep and do so um kind of the lead in for our our our conversation today and maybe next time as well is specifically grief and grief around uh relationships specifically so we will uh begin with kind of just a discussion on Grief in general uh work through the stages of the grief and then you know add in some some uh personal stories and and anecdotes along the way so if that's suitable for you then uh buckle up and hang on for the ride if if not then uh click away do turn it up yeah go to a cad video you know don't lose me [Laughter] now C video is offered I'm in yeah yeah all right so um I want to begin our discuss did we freeze we're back yeah so I want to begin our discussion uh in a from a kind of Chinese medical da perspective and I found this to be quite interesting from myself when I learned it and so just as a a disclaimer anytime you talk with an acupuncturist or somebody who studies dosm they may have similar ideas on things but it's going to be explained differently so for our Chinese medical folks um who are listening to this podcast if I sound different than the book or different than some of your professors or even if you took class with me and I sound different now than when I was giving the lecture a year ago uh that's just how it goes because there's always different levels of understanding as it is with everything so um there's kind of five elements that uh exist in dosm and I uh you know kind of inside baseball here I I uh got Katie to sign up for a uh a Dost uh a dying course focused in in dosm and so she is now uh excitedly but perhaps reluctantly taking this class with me so uh it'll be it'll be good well by the time okay done I am all about death in the dark forest all about it I do a lot of work with people in deep grieving States so this really did speak to me the conceptually but to his point about the hesitation it is very much for acupuncturist which I am not so there's a lot of Meridian points and things that I don't understand I don't know how much I'm gonna not understand over the next nine months yeah but it's gonna be good that's that okay so there's five elements fire earth metal water and wood and and we've had Rory on here before who's done a really nice job of breaking some of those down breaking some of those down and you know we've talked about doing a series on them but we just never got around to it but specifically I'm going to talk about the the kind of Soul overall and I've done this before in the show but we'll do it again now and so the the soul or we're going to call it the Shen in Chinese medicine is broken up into kind of five parts um and each part is associated with a different element so the wood element is associating with the dreaming body and the Earth element is associated with the kind of like mental thinking body the water element is associated with them with kind of like the the wisdom body but you can also correlate it to like our genetic material and the metal element in particular the one that we're going to focus on now is associated with the physical body it's known in Chinese as the PO they call this the Corporal body or we could just call it like our our Soma you know and the interesting thing for me in comparing those elements to each other is that the the poe or the metal element or our our our Soma is the only one that does not really move on to the next life and because of that and because it's most associated with the material aspect of our being it is very much I could say aware of its own finite nature and given that it is the metal element it is associated with the lungs and the large intestine so it's in charge of respiration right inhaling and exhaling it's also in charge of uh news flash poop and so it is in charge of getting rid of waste again very material things when you're uh a spirit you don't need to breathe you also don't need to [...] either so these are kind of very human things you know and therefore it's it's very ingrained in the day-to-day kind of activities of life it also is on aware on some level of its own Decay the other dreaming body and the mental body they can go off and think about things and and make plans and have dreams and they're not bound to your your physical body but the rest of you totally is and so given that it's a you know has a quote unquote awareness of its own finite nature it is the most unwilling to let go it has the hardest time letting go and so because of this we have a hard time letting go because we feel it so deeply and the emotion that is associated with that is grief and so the because grief is the the I guess you could say the emotional side of of Letting Go the difficulty in letting go that's the feeling that comes up that's how we describe it you know it's just like recoil from something being from us giving something up yeah lost there you go and so it is it is this part of us that has the hardest time letting go because it is such a real thing for it it is the one that feels it most deeply and it's a very physical feeling and thereby it has a very emotional component to it because it comes from the body and it is part of us and we are all aware that our time here is not infinite and so anytime that we have a loss whether it be the the physical loss of a loved one they pass away whether it be unexpectedly or even expectedly or you know whatever uh we feel that if it's a loss and you know how we're going to tailor our conversation here moving forward of a friendship or a relationship those those losses feel very similar because they are those people are no longer in Our Lives just like the people who we lose who pass away and so it becomes very it becomes almost similar it's a reminder to us of our finite nature and if people can slip into a state of depression you can also be reminded in a negative sense perhaps of our own isolation or our own perceived isolation once we are embodied in this because we go from a state of being an infinite potential Soul if you will or Shen differentiated to a you know a relatively differentiated being who is driving around this human form with two arms and two legs and you know one head and so this is a very deep thing for us it's a very difficult um I say experience and and topic to to kind of discuss because it is so I don't know so ephemeral so corporeal if you will does that make sense I want to give you a chance to to say a few words here gtie yeah I mean it all makes sense I feel uh there's the idea of we're here to experience that um that these energies have found this you know space of this Locust space to to experience to experience the Corporal being and with that it's it's how these frequencies now hit this nature of containment and I find it a very beautiful experience and call it like the terrifyingly beautiful or you know the beautifully awful it's it's always a little bit of both and if you can be in the both and it's a lot better than the either or yeah but even just going to the you know slipping into depression I feel the language of a lot of times for myself I feel this especially in grieving processes or deep emotional states that have gone to a different state of where I am yeah I feel the language of I have I am depressed my body is depressing right now that's better said not I'm depressed but I am depressing there's a Slowdown that's necessary for me to process things for me to just be for me to allow waves and stages and everything in between that I don't know what's there because I'm doing my everything I'm supposed to do but if I allow what it is not that we can't then continue to depress ourselves to your point with isolation but sometimes that feeling when I first feel it it's very sweet and sad it's like I'm supposed to slow down because I've got to process some emotions that I'm not allowing to come up and this body has to do this to be here in a very clear way and I mean even in the natural in the generating cycle so you know there's like fire earth metal water and wood after metal right we talked about this kind of corporeal body the next cycle is the water cycle and the water cycle is associated you know with sadness that is the natural so it's the natural facet of of life to let go of these things and then move into a move into a seed State essentially right because water is like probably the closest thing that we have to an infinite source of potentiality right like everything comes from water you know and so you move into that water phase and then things arise seeds arise from that life arises from that when we look for uh life on other planets what are we looking for we're not looking for actual beings we're looking for water because that's the beginning metal is the end water is the beginning so this stage of sadness how you're talking about is kind of the place where we collect because that's what water wants to do it wants to collect it wants to you know remain with itself uh versus fire which fire and it wants to move I feel that idea of water if it's stagnated well that's where bacteria grows so if we're not moving and through water it doesn't get yet to produce life we get stuck we live the same year for 10 years yeah yes so that that's a different kind of grief you can't get to the grief you don't even know what the pain is yeah yeah yeah so it's it's a but that's so but to your point yes I mean there is a natural kind of movement from from that to that um from from grief to sadness that's kind of the thing and and just you know kind of talking about this sort of stages of of grieving if you will I wanted to bring I wanted to bring this up and so uh I wanted to kind of go over this and then we can we can certainly talk about it um the stages of grief um and so I have them here now when I first went over this a long time ago in college as as a you know a psychology undergrad for you know a year or so uh I learned the stages of grief as like stages that seems like oh they're going to go in this order but actually they don't have to go in any order they can be I'm done right right it's like they so they so anyways so the stages of grief and probably repeat themselves too there's they're very cyclical on top of each other definitely so they can occur in any order but they are denial anger bargaining depression and acceptance now we we'll break those down here but the the two there's two more that I kind of wanted to talk about in addition to this one is app before you even go into a grief stage uh whichever one you're in I I think apprehension is there I think there's an apprehensiveness that and you can tell me what you think about this I believe that there's an apprehensiveness that we have in order to avoid going e even to start the the grief cycle before we do the breakup before we say goodbye before we let the thing go quit the job or whatever you don't want to go there there is a hesitance a for CH it's ground rattling apart and you feel the tonic plates shifting I I right when you said apprehension I felt the word resistance and not in a bad way resistance can be very safe sometimes can be the thing you need to do for a minute to get to the place you need to be but yeah if you don't get stuck doing it too long so I think that you're right I but I would also still kind of say that precedes the grief cycle it's yeah it's just you know it's part of life but it's not part of that grief set it's the preceding thing that you don't really get to get away from yes yes because an accident kind of happen you know like a massive car accident that has no expectation well that rattling probably happens but it's right before the car hits correct so there's you know yeah there things can happen on a super accelerated scale yeah definitely um and then the other the the last one that I and I have yet to read this book so but I think I'm going to um it the last stage of grief uh they call it the sixth stage of grief and that's the name of this book the sixth stage of grief they call it finding meaning and I'll and I'll go into that here um in a minute once we finish the rest of these but I I I saw that as I was doing this and I was like oh I like that because that's that's the ramp that's the ramp that's the way out you know this is the Silver Lining this is the the the lesson you know what I'm saying that is there for you or for whoever it's the way through you know the I saw something about just sadness maybe it used that word versus grief but it had like images with like you know balls but it was like the grief doesn't get smaller it stays the same size but you build a life around it and it had like other balls around it it's like there's always a you know loss there but even as I say it I'm thinking of you know the tree shedding its leaves and fall and I always just pictured like okay the beautiful Dead Leaf it served its purpose blah blah blah blah but over the last couple years I read something where it said you know the entire tree is imprinted in the leaf the entire tree so like every part of the tree left with the that was something exceptional for me I don't know why that resonated that process so much differently but the changing the letting go it's like that it's always part of you it's like in every Dimension probably part of you in different ways it's part of your tree yeah but that's part of what also let go and also has parts of you always with it back into the ground right well that and that is it's interesting you know we kind kind of hearkened back to earlier so the The Fall season is the season of the metal element and the trees are kind of like the Earth's lungs you know and so when the leaves the leaves drop it shows the movement of the energy back to the back to the core like during you know in preparation for hibernation but I really I like that how the the the the entire imprint of the tree is in every leaf because that's the I mean for me for my mind that's the definition of a soul yeah yeah the embodiment yeah yeah um okay so real quick on this stages of grief right so uh denial often is a defense mechanism you refuse to accept things there's uh you know you you it's not it's yeah or you're numb to it I found those to be kind of like the two most extreme you you just ignore it or you're like nah nah I think numbing is a coping mechanism of denial yeah yeah yeah for sure um and then then there's the bargaining one which is um what you we were talking about before we started Rec recording uh people dwell on what they could have done differently and the other or bargain that they're going to do it differently in a future and get it back right and so they talk death death they have this written down they call it uh bargaining with a higher power which you know from in in a psychological I guess discussions is an odd thing to have written down and Western biological or Western psychological discussions you know um depression I think we know what depression is acceptance we know what acceptance is um and you know the last one the last one I think that I want to just chat on here for a moment is Def finding meaning I kind of want to go back if we're allowed to go back go back yeah hello yes so it's going back to acceptance I think there's it's such a multifaceted piece that will speak back into the other parts like acceptance of the way you were in it too not just you know or acceptance of the other not acceptance of just the loss and the break and the you know pieces at the end but acceptance of all the parts and the whole tree yeah a good and that that acceptance is actually possible to really just be pure love at that point because it's just I love this whole thing now it's it's I had to see all the pieces but it's I think acceptance is a very layered rooted out thing that's happening or needs to continue to happen and sometimes we just glaze into the okay except that this is a loss and now Moving on but kind of skip some of those layers of what might still need our attention or love Yeah well I mean I think acceptance is almost inevitably one of the last stops along the way right because without that then you're still you're probably in one of those denial phases to be honest you know it's hard to it's hard to accept things that you are not acknowledging right yeah and well yes I agree that is one place that can happen and might happen but I am thinking even of ways that I might have judged myself in my last relationship based on how he wanted to point something out you know and so I'm stuck in that judgment of myself and then somehow somewhere it blows open because a group of people or a friend or a close one accepts me as that and I'm like well I can accept me as that or I don't have to keep judging myself for that and it's just things that have sprung from the relationship but a relationship is how you then are in relationship with yourself with other people so I think there's there's parts of me that I get to continuously keep learning and growing and accepting not being in denial of all the you know things that have happened and all that relationship aside but the parts of me that now I'm only in relationship too I get to continue to change that story because that reflection isn't saying that's wrong and a lot of these others are saying you get to be you and that's okay and even when you're kind of like snippy or short or we love you right I get to reaccept myself in that versus try to shape and mold to be something that isn't natural or authentic in that moment and myself but I might be snippy right it's okay to be that and and and yeah I just think it can marry out in a lot of ways and also go backwards in a lot of ways sure so anyway next stage yeah I mean but these things they don't you know they they're not in any particular order it's right it's just as you move on I mean arguably after you deny things you have to accept that they occurred in order for you to go through the anger and depression and bargaining and so on and so you so there and I think what the psychology books are putting it to is like accepting that totally I just like to dig layers I hear you um but I I do think that when you can when you go through them and then the way out is defining is defining defining meaning pulling the the kind of pieces from these experiences uh through you and like like I talked about in the beginning of this like grief is one of the hardest grief accepting loss accepting change accepting uncertainty because because you have to let go of something in order to move to something else is I don't know I mean I can't say the hardest thing for us to do but it's very difficult for everyone to do you know because we are in B you know because it is it's an archetypal uh Sensation that just gets triggered so hard and we we are also communal beings regardless of how isolated we are now with technology and you know what whatever we are communal beings we have been for far more than Society has been around you know so we are we are wired to be around other people all the time and when we lose that it is a it's a death even if someone doesn't die it's it's a death with that we have to accept and grieve and do that you mean when like someone is severed from your sense of community yes yeah yes and you know I think we're as a species yes or just you know in in our culture is probably what I can actually speak to uh there's just we're ill equipped everyone I worked with when I was first kind of pulled into work with someone in a you know bereavement process I didn't know if I was equipped and and she was like you're the only person I actually want to talk to all her friends were so sweet but they're like it's G to get better it's G to get you know everyone wanted to make the light happen and pull her out of it and I was the only one that would sit with her and hold her hand in the dark forest and say you're here we're going to be here for a yeah that's okay and you know going back to the finding meaning part I I don't know maybe I'm just interpreting it differ than it's supposed to be or it's just another way of looking at it I'm not hearing or even you know receiving that as finding meaning in the relationship and the you know oh it all happened for a reason because this which I hope there's that but I guess the way I'm taking it in and this could be incorrect is well the way through the way through grief is to be in your life continuously and finding meaning in your life forget finding meaning from what happened or from the loss or from the you know person like and how that's imprinting to some degree like that's always already almost oversaturating the framework of the brain at that point so and I could be wrong but I I feel it is like finding meaning in like what's how am I putting my foot down in the world right now not like as a legend you're creating but like what's my next step to feel good in my life now yeah so what they you know again I didn't I have not had a chance to read the book I just found out about it like two days ago but I did watch uh about a 20 minute Ted talk with the author where they did a Q&A with the audience and what he said is that the there's a few kind of pieces to this so finding meaning first of all is that it's relative to you so whatever it is it it's it's your it's your meaning whether that is from the relationship or whether that is for your life or whatever it's it it has to be specific for you so there's not like a prescriptive thing oh this is the meaning or whatever right so right it could be finding Faith yeah yes something deeper and bigger beyond the thing that you've tunnel visioned in with yep um and like the other thing he said that it does take time and that time is is different for everybody so it could be months could be years um understanding and I I like this part it says understanding is not required understanding of of why things so like you said like yes this is life this is how it happens we move on so on and so forth that doesn't have to be a necess it's not necessary to have that understanding in order to find meaning out of this experience you know um but that is Al we have to accept that loss on all fronts uh is a part of life and that the last piece meaningful relationships are very helpful and I you know we talking about community and when he said that I was like oh yeah yeah that makes a lot of sense and and the one one piece of the talk that he uh said that I really liked he's like you know there's a lot of discussion today around like post-traumatic stress he's like but what there is not a lot of disc discuss around is post-traumatic growth and that is defining meaning piece for him and uh Define post-traumatic growth and so again post-traumatic growth for him was the ability to take the meaning from the experience that you had with loss okay okay and and and to be strengthened by it and and specifically like before we started recording you and I were talking he talked about H like building your building strength around the loss so you're so if there's if you feel like there's a hole okay where somebody once resided that you can fill the entirety around that hole with other relationships or other understanding or other meaning or some things that have value and still honor the space where that person was because they will good way to put it yeah you're not filling in the space and it it kind of goes back to the little like image I saw like the ball stay the same size yes but you feel around it and correct yeah I think like from my deepest stage with grief and longest uh the thing that I really Rose into almost on accident and I was kind of buffered in a beautiful way with Co I shouldn't have dated I wanted to be alone I wanted to really process the entire experience fully and process my grief that said when I did start finding some Community um during a time you know where we all isolating I just showed up a little differently I just talked about it I didn't keep you know I just was super vulnerable but without an edge of like I'm crying about it I was just like very honest authentic owning my part in it yeah say you know not bashing the person like but really mostly authentically owning my part because I'm the person in front of you guys but so yeah it was I think it was one of the first steps in me feeling really I don't know alive in myself as this being who deserves to be here yeah yeah and and boundaries I wouldn't have never like really thought yeah like just I think living in boundaries that sounds so imprison but living within boundaries that are like I just my yes and my no became so so so so clear that's probably the best way to put it yeah and and it didn't have to be challenged or defended in such a way it was just like I just felt my nature differently and I think it was part of really facing the grieving process with such a tenderness and grit and then also only showing up in community when I was ready for that like that was the thing that I to build around the whole but like that's how I started showing up and then yeah not that it I wasn't authentic before but you get it you just you see different versions of yourself that are just like slightly expanded out from the last little yeah all there's there is um there is inevitable personal change when we have to fill a space that was once held by another and in the filling of that space and the growth that goes along with it we will be introduced to a more Fuller version of our self because we are I'm not going to say like acquiescing to someone else but I'll say adapting to our partners which is what you're referring to at this point as a you know the end of a romantic partnership and I mean ultimately that's where this conversation is going to go we're just kind of setting the stage in terms of talking about grief as the foundation to a larger conversation about grief and relationships but I wanted to give the kind of background on on Grief in general but you know as we do experience that loss whether it be you know in this case of romantic partnership or with the loss of a a a person via VIA the death process they're they're no longer there in our life they you know if I like to imagine that we have um our personalities are similar to like spices in a dish or in a soup or a stew whatever and when you put two spices together they have a certain flavor profile that goes along with with both of them and then when you remove one the other one has to it stands up more you you taste that more if I just have I like that imagery to that if I just have spice it's very spicy if I have or if if I have cayenne and if I have cayenne and and honey then it's like a hot honey right but if I remove the honey and I only have Cayenne well now that's the flavor that I'm going to work with and I'm going to have to find that it's not just SP spicy there's an aromatic quality to it also you know and I wouldn't have tasted that before because it was moderated by the the the sweetness of the honey you know so this is how I believe we are grow like you said you're growing when you're interacting with other people or other spices in the analogy that I'm giving and you are finding the ways in which that you can express your own natural flavors in these environments yeah yeah and I think even in going back to what you said about acquiescing or adapting like you know you kind of both do and like yeah when you know cayenne and honey first separate you still have a little bit of hen cayenne and the honey and honey you know and so there's still that kind of like amalgamation of something that you just keep kind of distilling and purifying and you know my partner I still have tons of similarities and you former partner oops but that said like it's it's so much who we are as separate people and then you're sure you know like it's there there's pieces that I can just go back and love him differently in because I'm like this is me too right but we magnify that in each other but like they're kind of cute qualities but whatever it is like I I just think that I like the spice analogy in that way because it is it's a you find your purification and then you're more you and just going back to what you're saying about community uh you know that that is going to kind of be ever changing and ever cycling because people get close and they move and whatever yeah but like that authenticity and that like right cumin I was showing up in was like eventually those are the closest relationships I've ever had some of them the few like the most the most deep and that I don't know you know when you're with your partner you can't necessarily find that in the same way and now like know that every partner that could now come in is going to compare off of something that is brightened and and the grief process was such a big part of that that's who I shared it with you know that's who held me in it and I held and that's a different life death cycle that I've now lived with humans that I love and someone's got to come up real strong against that to you know get time at the table well I mean if if it's a competition yes but if not they'll bring their own and they will create not in a bad way not in a competing way but like but that's I want that strength I want that that brightness of partner to come in that to your point you know you're going through the loss but you're you're also becoming by yourself it's the post-traumatic growth process and it's not like a better person or someone who's going to treat me right I don't mean any of that right I just mean someone who's more congruent to my my spice that I am in now my you know flavor profile my diversity of spices that I am I'm a seasoning yes yes you are um so so I have a little bit I have a little uh a paragraph here from a uh early 20th century French writer named Marcel PR or if you're speaking it properly Marcel because he's French that's good thank you good job um so he's a very interesting guy they even had a game show in I think I don't know if it was the 30s uh defined Mar or maybe in the 50s defined Marcel PR in 15 seconds that was the game show and the whole show yeah that was the show it was like whatever $30,000 if you could do it and they you know you couldn't he's a very enigmatic writer very interesting character like the most interesting man in the world except for the fact that he's like super sick and bedridden you know but yet still manages to go out parties he only drinks like milk and coffee like it just he's an interesting character my kind of guy graham crackers milk and coffee that's it he's got it you know um and so anyways I I was reading this kind of like primer about him that had some pieces of information you know some of his pieces in it and some descriptions of of his stuff and I I just ran across this maybe about a week ago talking about grief because he is such a sickly person he's like why would we focus on being happy we should really focus more on being operational while we're sad because we spend a lot more time being sad than we do being happy it seems like a better use of our time very an Rand of him so but yes 100% I am super operational and I'm sad I've worked on this yes that's a prian way of thinking um and so he talks about the grieving process about grief in particular and um and then he asks you know this is not a direct quote but it's my kind of uh sharing of it right uh and he's he's asked the reader like why is it that we have been abandoned which is the this feeling of grief right because you've been left okay and in the context of relationships that's where this came from but again we're talking about grief as a whole for for right now um and he says that we identify the reasons for our discomforts although this doesn't is absolve us from our pain but it can form the basis for Recovery how when you have understanding it is assuring us that we are not uniquely cursed and I liked that because the word that stands out to me in this was uniquely because when you believe that you are uniquely cursed you are special you are different this is happening to you and you only and when you have understanding around G you know understanding around grief now whether that understanding if we go back just a few minutes whether that understanding is the acceptance part or the finding meaning part in our stages of grief I can't say it doesn't fit exactly but what I can say is that that understanding helps us to to change our perspective so that we understand that this is happening to everyone it doesn't make our suffering any less but it does put it into perspective that this is not specific to us this is a product of being alive and I think that helps and so I know as a practitioner when I'm in the clinic with somebody and I try and provide this understanding or the you know like a a philosophy to say okay these are some archetypal experience es based on what you're describing again it's just to put it into perspective for people that like you're not alone in this and the anecdotal story I have which we you know we could talk about for a moment I had a patient um probably about a year and a half ago who came in and I worked with her for a few times and she was coming in because she had about the 10year anniversary from uh a a child that was born and passed away after like a day so full term y yeah and you know it was still you know 10 years later and she's coming in to get treatment because it's she's still with it you know and I totally understand and she told me about this you know cuz she just was started crying one day and I was like this this is where where's this coming from you know and so I just for you know she stopped talking and I just sort of sat for a moment and I said okay what would an indigenous Society what do I believe an indigenous society would do out a miscarriage or a death of a young infant well they would probably my guess they the women would grieve together that would be my guess specifically on a miscarriage maybe the whole unit the whole tribe as like an infant but specifically a miscarriage and my guess is again this is just me this is the vision that I had that they would go to the forest do a do a ritual bury it and then cry together and then sing and then that would be forever remembered you know this would be the tree or this is the spot or whatever they would do something because I feel like there is not a lot of grieving rituals that occur in our culture specifically around miscarriages you know when you have a full-term child you can bury it you have a thing but when you have a miscarriage it affects lots and lots of women lots of women for sure and it's a relationship that you have not just with this unborn being but it's a relationship that you have with the idea and the hopes and the projections for what this being might be for itself and for you built your whole life and your whole life exactly but I mean hers not being a miscarriage you know they still get the it's still not enough that's the first woman I worked with when she lost her fiance say like we did rituals in the forest and it wasn't just all like letting go of him it was a lot of ways bringing in meaning into her life but like I felt like really deeply this person needs to connect with the land and we need a bigger nervous system with the two of us are but that said miscarriage has such a secretive hide it don't share it it's it's a totally you know not that she didn't have you know enough of what she needed she probably didn't but when you go to miscarriage versus even bringing to term it's even weirder it's even more hidden it's even you can't you don't talk about it correct a lot of times people never know you were pregnant and it's a a loss that you just don't ever really get to process until you're processing it in weird places yeah no it's true yeah and I've had and since she has come I have had had a number of patients who have had miscarriages within the last year or two and they it they carry it around literally they they carry the feeling around uh shamanic story uh I was teaching uh an introductory uh shamanic course some years ago maybe uh three years ago now and in one of the you know meditation sessions journeying sessions myself and one of the other uh assistants I had there saw a vision of this woman with something around her and you know some kind of spirit if you want and we then took her aside after the class was over and we said hey uh did you ever have like a miscarriage or an abortion she said yes I had a a a later miscarriage some time ago she's she was on vacation she was pregnant and then it it happened we saw that on her 15 years later in her field yes yes still there it kind of goes back to something that said before like we we we're all part of the same that's part of her tree yeah and on some Dimension that's her mother and on some Dimension that's her you know kid but like that's part of her tree but part of that tree has to be let go and and that's that's a leaf that is crumbly correct that is a leaf that is crumbly that needs to be pulled off the tree so that a new Leaf can grow you know right right and that but that energetic that frequency that imprint to me is still going to be in the field but it's not like what you guys saw Yes you know it's then just gets to fill her heart and yes it's still right right but the the point is that even though this thing you know and I we asked her the the wild part for me is that we asked we said we can help you process this but we have to have your permission she said no it's hard to let go it's hard to let go for all I think that you know that it it's hard to go through all the little pieces of the process and you know I just I'm thinking back to someone I was working with that I wasn't really even looking at the you know the stages of grief that wasn't what was coming to me at all I guess on some intuitive or intellectualized level that was what was there uh intuitively but I just could feel like she she's not getting angry at anything or anyone or this just I'm angry enough I just had the like have you gotten angry at him and now he's passed away this person but she hadn't and she needed to because he left her he left her on this plane and they had all these plans and it doesn't have to make sense and it won't you but you're feeling that way somewhere and you can be mad at your kid for not coming into this world but you got to be mad about it because I know you're mad about because and feel you're mad about it I'm mad for you I can't feel you're mad about it I want to I'm mad for you and I think that we have to process all these little pains that in a lot of ways we've over adulted or adulted over to not be allowed to or to only access it so much or like I didn't like my haircut recently I was like how old is too old to cry about my hair doesn't matter but like it's not too old it's not and we have to you know get out the guttural everything and kind of looking at the stages just to know if you've missed something might be a good idea but it was just so natural for me to see it in her and that really opened up a process for the next like couple months where like it just it helped her pour out more of what was going to hold a being Phantom around her sure you know it's slowly but surely and it's never over especially when it's coming to death versus the loss of romantic it really is a different yeah you know thing to carry but also in some ways deep romantic endings are really hard because they're still here and it's still a death and and to make sense of that is its own whole other topic yes and you know like the song says breaking up is hard to do and uh that is a good that is a good place for us to pause there we will continue our conversation next time and we'll stream a little bit more into the relationships but we wanted to give the kind of foundation here for for grief in general so Katie thank you for uh for joining me and audience thank you so much for uh tuning in uh you know this is a labor of love for sure so uh like comment subscribe share our work uh if you have any questions comments uh concerns or you know you just want to you know show some love feel free leave a like comment in the uh description here or whatever down down below wherever it is I don't know depends on what platform you're on uh feel free send us an email uh Jin and Tantra gmail.com hit us up on Instagram the Jin and Tantra podcast you know I don't know show some love man we appreciate it for Katie this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace w