hey fellow G and here's Joseph select our spirituality with a Twist so we are back continuing our series on the three bodies of the Buddha um we started talking about this thing the Supreme Source last time we all got together um and uh we're gonna do a little bit more on that but it as these things go sometimes these conversations find themselves to places that we weren't anticipating before the conversation even started and I we had one of the ones that's going to stand out in my mind because I think it was a good example of uh a couple of people both making their own points and they were both good you know and uh so anyways we had gone on to this idea of talking about the nature of uh the relationship between the mind and the body or the spirit and the body and I had kind of brought up this question which I guess we'll come back to about everyone's always trying to make put people into their bodies you know in the way we think about health care and the way we think about working with people now well just let's put that let's ground them and I was Raising questions about that and then Daniel was talking about his feelings about this and his thoughts about this and he came up with this computer analogy and I was extremely rude and you were very cool about it but I was like it just hit this certain nerve in me the conversation not what you said it's the nerve in me you know and it was like uh just it sparked a really like what I think was one of our like uh one of the conversations that we've had that I'll remember for a long time because it was deep to something close to my heart that came up in this surprising way and I thought was really good and we both by the end we were talking it through and we built had our really good points yeah so for me it kind of boiled down to two things that might come down to two different things for you or whatever comes down well let's let's just we have let's let's give the analogy again just for oh yeah the analogy do you want to do it or you want me to do it you go for it oh I get to go for it okay so Daniel like has this analogy he likes to use with patients I think especially right but probably people in general yeah I mean I think any time that you're talking with somebody about these kinds of topics in order to try uh frame the discussion around something that you can reference yeah yeah yeah so like I was going to use this phrase for this it's a Zen phrase which is called expedient means okay which is the idea like you do something that will work for that person right you make a point of like presenting things in a way to match what will resonate with the person you're trying to make the connection with which is very wise obviously yeah right yeah so as we as we continue to talk I was like okay that's a good I got I got the underlying idea so your notion is something like well if we're going to talk about this complex issue maybe one way of doing it is to kind of take the body as the hardware side let's say the body's the hardware and let's take the mind as the software yeah and talk about the interaction between the software and the hardware um now for me I got to this thing we'll get to my concern later right yeah my concern was something like well one of the implications of that analogy really could be it's only the hardware because we talk about computers and stuff we don't necessarily think about just a separate software you know this is really funny because there's some part in Galaxy Grandpa Jay's notes I think maybe antagoni where he says something like well it's a total tangent but he doesn't think well maybe at some point you really will have like Spirit entering into computers why not why wouldn't that at some point happen why couldn't something incarnate into a computer you know if you get people who are inclined to do that they spent their whole lives with computers they feel comfortable with computers maybe next time they'll just reincarnate in the computer he didn't say it exactly like that but yeah why not maybe that could happen you know um but we don't always think that way so that was the the source of my uh uh uh exclamation SAS slash Outburst in the episode because I have concerns about this which we'll get back to but you're I think what you were saying was this idea of uh talking the way that people can get yeah a lot of people can relate to this idea of thinking of their body like the hardware and their mind like the software and uh so anyways that was that was part of the what sparked that conversation so I I just used this yesterday so I had a a woman who called me looking for um meditation instruction and she was really more calling for her husband but she wanted to you know let's talk to me because she he probably wouldn't do it for himself and she's like he's interested but she's like I'm really more interested for him she's like so I can't say maybe we'll have to do it together and I was like I think it's probably a good idea and she's like but he doesn't really believe in a lot of this kind of energy stuff and I said well does he believe in cell phones she's like yeah I said does he understand how the technology Works she's like probably not I said but when you turn your phone off you realize you could turn it back on and it doesn't get disconnected from its cell service right she's like yeah I said okay then he understands how this works analogy coming in right yeah so like it's fair you know that's expedient means like that's the Zen Point like you're using something the way that that person can relate to from their own experience right and it's a deep question like how do you get you know like there are certain things you can kind of like know and understand or whatever but then also how do you present that in a way that will resonate with others I mean that's what we're trying to do in this whole podcast obviously and that's you know like that I mentioned that quote very regularly from that book meditation is medicine and he opens it with you know with a little prayer you know please Creator Lord whatever um he's a neurologist he said let me speak to my patients in a language they'll understand yeah yeah all right and that's the whole that's the whole point of like you know this quote-unquote effective communication right or or Expedia means as you as you said it's the same you know how do you how do you connect this with the straightest line and I like uh when I heard that phrase expedient means it like clicked with me I was like oh I get that it's expedient right right and it's a means to an end right I mean that's the meaning of it so you're trying to do something that will be expedient for that person yeah that's very reasonable right yeah I should also like as I was thinking about this during the week I should also say that like it could sound like from my point of view like I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about the body and the nature of the body but that is not true right I spent like all these years doing acupuncture and that you know and doing meditation Traditions that are quite physical so if I hadn't explored this it would be different I think but you know Zen is pretty physical you know and all of the dollar stuff has a deep physicality to it and you like meditate on the body a lot right and those are those Traditions so I spent time thinking about this a lot so it isn't like I don't know if you spend all your time just doing this other thing and then someone brings up a different thing you're like that thing sucks let me tell you about my thing right that wouldn't be right you know it's been very interesting for me I'd say probably all things being equal the like the Tibetan Buddhist world is a little bit more mental right and the Taos and the Zen world is a little bit more physical and I thought about both of these things and the ups and downs of it and I you know it's like someone who does Chinese medicine I in no way would ever have any intention of like minimizing what you can do by working through the body no way you can do tons of stuff by working through the body so especially for our people who are maybe like TCM people obviously have a audience from amongst that crowd right we have a connection with that crowd and I'm definitely not trying to say that at all you know there definitely is so many things you can do by working through the body that could be a benefit to the Shen and the spirit definitely definitely definitely definitely true you know so well anyway so that's like I think what I had on this I wanted to like kind of make the other part clear I've done like really physical meditations and there's upsides to that let me I'll let that last point there can be a thing of like sometimes I've had the experience of like say the Tibetan Buddhist world it's galuka School of The Dalai Lama's I don't know as much about the other ones because I haven't spent as much time drink on carguru and the loop guide probably know the best right anyways um uh I've been in other places too but but just to put the context on it but I can remember being up at the Dalai Lama's Monastery in New York and we were doing like we're talking about doing Retreats Mantra Retreats with one of the ladies there and I was really talking about the feeling of it like almost like the feeling in your body of doing a mantra Retreat you know and it was uh I was using my example uh one of the really uh but they'd say Fierce practices right which is yamantaka which is you know a very strong meditation uh image deity yeah figure you know big horns and like decent sized [...] [Laughter] holding All These Arms you know uh like it's very forceful it's supposed to be a very forceful strong image and I had a great experience out in an arbor uh galactic's Retreat out there on yamantaka and there was a group of us a couple of ladies and me and we were on the back wall like we were in the very back last row you know the cheap seats in the back kind of right up against the wall even against the windows it was like wintertime Retreat it was a little nippy we were huddled back there and we were chanting away like like like a wall of yamantaka no no [...] around you know we were really chanting in our minds you know you do the mantras in your head so no one was saying anything but you could just feel the the energy of this yamantaka and it was so real and so physical and I couldn't help thinking I probably that meant more to me because I had done all of this Zen physical stuff before and I had this feeling of embodying that thing because I just kind of worked with my body if that makes sense so I just wanted to you know talk about that issue because I'm not in any way trying to minimize or denigrate what what can be accomplished by meditating on the body or doing practices through the body like Tai Chi and Qigong or you know the medical things that we do those things are really deep too so you know it's not trying to be one-sided yeah that's fair yeah yeah that's fair yeah that's fair it's an interesting response well I've you know I mean I've yeah you're you're you're clarifying your point that you're not trying to minimize you know body practices because it's been important for you and you know but in general right right and it's well you know it's it's part of what we do it's you know it's part of the equation for sure it's it's in you know it's an it's a variable but it's not really one that you can solve the equation without because we're embodied beings currently so you can't do the thing without the embodiment part at least not in the way that we know you know that's how we know how this is how we this is our current you know I guess I'd say Different Strokes for different folks you know I mean but like I have done both of these things and I can sort of power both of them yeah um so the part that hit me right uh and I think we both had our kind of good points that we made in this uh but like I said it just sort of like it hit this nerve in me that because I obviously have a hink around this point it was kind of like if you have like a funny tooth and then you just like have like some uh iced coffee or something you know and it goes ding just hits me because it's such a very scientific scientific materialist culture yeah in so many ways and that's a nerve in me and um if I get to the very personal side of it which we tried to do on this podcast um even regards to my own kids it concerns me you know because uh I don't know uh whether they think that there's something more to themselves than just their bodies the culture's so wired that way you know and there's so much emphasis on the body itself in so many ways so this whole idea that you want to like ground people in their bodies and ground people in their bodies I'm like it's such a body culture right I don't think people mean the same thing with that I know I don't understand that but it still is a weird problem if you have a bunch of people who only believe that their bodies and their your main treatment principle is going to be to embody them more in their bodies you have a funny thing going on there potentially well it's it's sort of like it's kind of like I guess symbolizing this conversation I was having so you know uh spoiler warning we're going to talk Chinese medicine just for a second here um so there's a point on the bottom of the foot uh it's the it's the first point on the kidney Meridian kidney one okay and I cannot tell you how many people say oh that's a very grounding point right you need to put that in and ground yourself okay well for those who've never had acupuncture before or not into Chinese medicine but are still listening to this podcast for various reasons um you know imagine a needle being stuck in the bottom of your foot it's very sensitive area because we all wear shoes and socks it sends a lot of sensation and you know given the work you know having some similar studies Eric you and I would both disagree with that that's a grounding point I mean it can be in terms of like if you have people I mean an example of this to put in the context for people might not know the traditional Chinese medicine behind this like if you have someone who had like high blood pressure sure Chinese medicine might say well do this point and see if you can pull it downwards sure right but then there are treatments I mean I know exactly what you're talking about where you might be doing this for like not that reason at all right yeah and it's one of the points that might even like um uh you know activate a person's mind yes you know right yeah uh spark their spirit in these in these Taoist treatments that you and I are both fascinated by and it's funny because I just had a person get this this week there's this poor there's this treatment where which includes this point I'm at the bottom of the foot but also includes a point kind of it like the base of the skull yeah and for our TCM people this is like do 15. and um what are you doing there are you trying to like ground the person probably no well we're not trying to send a spark and stimulate in a certain sense trying to stimulate their spine stimulate their brain stimulate their Consciousness in a way right it's a spark to Consciousness it's not like let's chill you out right I mean it's it's you know it's really purposely designed to see if it can like spark more subtle parts of the brain activity that will sort of free the brain and see what comes out correct right so this this to me is emblematic of this discussion of you know grounding versus you know where where are you ground how are you doing what what are you doing and how are you doing it you know so you can activate that point to activate parts of the brain the mind you can also maybe hold the feet in a different kind of a way to bring the person's blood pressure down or bring their energy down into the lower parts of their body to remind them they have feet and that you know whatever you're trying to do so you know the intentionality behind it I think is important context of where it is in the treatment too for TCM people right right and then but in the overalls around something and it'll give a different vibe to what's that what you wanted to do right or that but then in the overall arch in the overarching theme of like where are you grounded where are you placing where are you attempting to play someone's mind or someone's spirit you know what I'm saying um yeah it's just there's a it's a lot it's a lot there but you know I think you know our whole point is to illuminate both aspects well the only thing that I thought was my my line which hadn't occurred to me until we were talking about was like I've never heard anyone say I want to ground the person in their Buddha nature I've never heard it [...] once sure not one time I couldn't like yeah I don't know like the pile of like quarters I would have if I had a quarter for every time someone said they were going to ground someone in their body I'd have like a big jar corner to take in right the amount of times I've heard someone say you know I wanna I wanna ground them in their booth in nature not once never and that's very interesting right nobody ever says they want to ground the person in their own Spirit no one ever since they want to ground the person in their own Shen you know that no one ever says that but isn't it I'm like this is a problem this is very strange especially after we did the episode on the the sixth zen master or the sixth patriarch if you still want to use the word patriarch for that right I mean because he's saying you have to tap into this deepest part of who you are no one says [...] about that well that's the part that I'm trying to pick up on and I think that's a good line so I'm gonna use it I don't ever grounds anyone in there Buddha nature nobody ever does it but I think the language might be the the language in this particular Point might be the the place in which the the argument is being missed right because I do hear lots of friends of mine who are in you know the healing modalities right Reiki people and massage type people and you know people who like to use crystals and incense and things like this right like in a sense you're going to take my line away from me Daniel no I'm not you can keep this coming it's yours forever but people will often talk about like ascending ascending to their higher self you know and helping people to connect with their their larger purpose they'll use they might use terms like their soul or their oversoul or their you know higher sense of being or you know their Angels Yeah by yourself and so I think the term grounding is antithetical to what it is that they want to do which is help somebody quote unquote level up or Ascend moving up and just the term grounding the imagery of it right yes yes the term grounding is like a very kind of like I'm gonna I'm gonna pull down and place inwards versus what you're saying is is I don't know the I don't know the exactly what you're saying but it's different than than Ascension you know what I'm saying but it's not Ascension you know like it's not one of these I just have never heard I guess I was talking about in our little part of the world yeah you know our little TCM part of the world yeah but um I I you know I've never I've never heard anyone say that in our TCM part of the world right and and so that's I guess the point I was making yeah yeah you can hear people say like well I want someone to connect to their higher self well that you hear yeah right that you're here but you never heard anyone say that in our world no I never hear that well and we've had and that's and that's strange if you think about it because well it gets at the reason why it's like why it's interesting because it's strange because we're coming from a part of the world China Japan uh you know the Asian world where you could say something like that sure right but no one does no one does and partly and because we've had this discussion before this is definitely like a you know we didn't plan on going here for sure but we're gonna go here um I don't you and I agree on this and we've talked about this for years at this point just because someone pursues the study of acupuncture in Chinese medicine doesn't mean that they're necessarily spiritually inclined it is not any gr I don't think it's any greater than that of the general population like it's greater than the general population but it's not something to assume right right yeah yeah it's not like yeah I don't people some people people not in this in the Chinese medicine field might think oh they're they're all woo-woo and you know whatever but like it's not the case no it is it is not the case at all but the thing about that if it you know if I want to stretch this out to like a general audience for those people who are listening who aren't in our world right yeah TCM I think part of what's happening with underneath all of this is it's a really scientific materialist culture yeah for sure it really really is you know and uh then the concern about that and again that's why I was even talking about my own kids would be like well I I even grew up in a household with some uh quirky woo-woo mystical twistical goofball like me they still might not think that way right because the whole culture is so wired against that and I would say even in our own little field it's very scientific materialist yeah right and I don't again I don't want to comment on people in parts of even the American spiritual culture that I might not know sure I don't know but I mean if you say something about Neuroscience everybody's interested you know because that's supposed to be the real thing you know uh and that's not even like to be a neuroscience hater no I understand but there's just like those things carry this weight with people yeah no that's because that's that's the underlying idea of the culture yeah right that's that's real that's science and we could test for it and it was weird when I thought about this whole thing because I did want to think about my kids because you know we tried to make things personal with this sure and I was like well I wouldn't want to raise them for example Catholic like I was because I wouldn't want to like impose the whole italicism thing on them yeah as it was put on me because I obviously we can see downsides to it some of them are really terrible downsides in terms of things that the Catholic church has done that's really bad right but even aspects of the theology I wouldn't want them to carry inside of them even if they're entirely healthy from my vantage point um but I would say that the fact that I was raised in a like a a tradition kind of sorta you know I mean I was in church a lot yeah you know my uncle became a deacon and so on where I had some sense that there was something more to me than just my body yeah since I was Tiny you know because you're going to believe that if you're in these a kind of more traditional more traditional like not necessarily scientific materialist World Views right so you know that was that was that had that from my vantage point now as someone who's interested in things like Buddhism and taoism and so on right this had a positive side because I was already sort of predisposed to think okay there's more to me than just this right but if you don't have that exposure you know specifically in the culture uh you're gonna be probably be scientific materials minded person well probably even a lot of the people who are like Christian within the culture are probably scientific materials if you really dug under that yeah that's an interesting problem for me even as a parent though because I don't want to impose my own beliefs on my kids either you know I don't want to like try to indoctrinate them some way or another right I want them to have the freedom to come to their own ways of understanding things because what's the point right but you know I just happen to be around Church a lot because my Grandma and Grandpa would drag me my grandpa hung over and like slumped in the thing like still smelling of whatever he was drinking the night before okay you know my grandma's seriously trying to say the rosary for him um but um you know I was around a set of ideas that was different sure I don't know I know what do you think about that whole it's a it's not to me it's not a small problem I see it as a huge problem it is a problem however I I've you know I'm glad that we I'm glad this came out because I had this I don't know for me it's a it's a pretty deep realization um and it you know you never know where you can find inspiration right so I was watching uh Bill Maher and um he had on I forgot the name of the guy I should have wrote it down um but he he's written a number of books and one of the books that he has written on was on like the evolution of man and the sort of societal movement from nomadic culture to society you know and how cooperation was a big part in which why Homo Sapien was successful you know and he had they were talking about you know political division and how we as a culture as a as a tribal culture are far more focused on US versus our enemy for survival and US versus ourselves in terms of traders who would who would you know cause harm internally yeah I've heard these kinds of arguments before they're kind of like evil psych arguments evolutionary yeah and we're far less concerned with what the campfire is doing to the local environment which is why some people just don't have the environmental awareness to them you know it's an EVO psych argument as to why people are kind of like behaving the way they are in the present right yes yes like ebo psych arguments yeah which I tend to think are quite useful I do like them much more than me yeah well I mean because that's cool though but that's cool it gives it gives a frame of reference as to like okay you're looking for what's happening but the what I love this part of the conversation because you're the one who's going to bring that part in and uh you know so that's cool I like it and so what that did for me then is that then I took that to a larger perspective and I you know think about all the the stuff that I've learned from like here in Gabor mate right and speak week and you know people like him who really give a lot of credence to our genetics you know and talk about the influence that we have inherited and then it was it dawned on me at this point that like well part of what you know we are trying to do as people who are in pursuit of Enlightenment whatever this thing is you know is transcend not just what we are told but also what we have inherited and inherited not just from my grandparents your grandparents great great so on and so forth but from Humanity as a thing right all the natural and unconscious tendencies that made us successful at one point that are no longer in the same direction that we're trying to go because we're looking Beyond Survival we've transcended the Maslow's hierarchy of needs and as we're moving up you have to let go of some of the previous rungs in order to be able to ascend in this case right and so I had just been thinking of like okay if there are all these unconscious processes that are going on within my mind the Judgment of others the prioritizing of of self even Beyond what's required quote unquote required for my existence why do I have such strong feelings towards them well because there's a need for survival of myself and my own can around me and then maybe even some surrounding people around that and the teachings of compassion transcend those things and maybe not in the moment you just go okay compassion be nice to that person or whatever but like that's the goal the goal is to LeapFrog just your own limited view of what you think is important and who you think is important to be inclusive of all the other people and thereby you are bucking against the thing that is that has made you successful as a species because we don't no longer need to be in that state and so now we have the opportunity precious human life and you know endowed with opportunity and now we have the opportunity to take this opportunity to take this moment and transcend those things so it was a it was a kind of a deep thing for me and the the talk of the software and the hardware comes into it because the software is essentially being constantly developed just like on your phone just like on computers the hardware does stay the same and it develops if we do yogas or exercises or mindful practice whatever we do you know eating well and so on and so forth but the software develops at a much faster State a much faster we'll go and then try to like change the hardware exactly right if your phone has to carry new software I mean I like that's that's I get the analogy yeah so that's kind of that's kind of the thing and so then I'll wrap it up with this is that like as you go forth you're leaving you're essentially leaving behind all of the things that have made us successful as a species in order to return back to live in that way that you can now realize I don't have to be that way right I can be a different way and I'm choosing it consciously not unconsciously I say something funny about this this is so oddly synchronistic because it seems like this was happening over the the past week yeah okay over this past week I've been listening to a bunch of people I just happen to have some things pop up in my YouTube where they're just trashing the [...] out of Darwin so our lives are like parallel and yet slightly different yeah so this is the reason I bring it up is uh going I'm gonna go back to the expedient means thing though yeah there's no doubt to me regardless of what your attitude is towards like something like Evo psych or Darwin or whatever that it's a major way in which people think within the culture so I mean what you're to my way of thinking Daniel you know part of what you're doing when you're doing that is partially for yourself but you're also interacting with a major set of ideas and beliefs within the culture yeah if you're going to have a Buddhism or taoism here now yeah it's going to have to interact with those big ideas for people yeah because that's a place where people are coming from right uh and those ideas have a certain amount of Truth to them right so they should be addressed but even like uh in addition to that there's the question of like that's how people think yeah you know because that's just a big part of the culture so I think you have to have a Buddhism or a taoism to talk about that or whatever you want Buddhism kabbalahs you know any spiritual whatever it should like it should it has to kind of come to address these questions yeah and I've had that thought too and I like again I try to do it in classes that they teach you know on the grad level or whatever I'm probably more critical of it and you're probably more amenable to it but that's fine either way it's something where you know it has to be talked about right you know because this is like the big ideas that people are are are uh living within yeah right and are living within them yes they're living within them and they're living within them so to go through and talk about like oh can you get how the cell phone can download new stuff yeah then you understand software and Hardware this meditation will help you download new stuff and that will that will tweak your Hardware yeah right that's how that's how it stores it by tweaking the hardware yeah hello it's good right it's a good analogy then right and the person can relate to it yeah so it's expedient means thing my only thing would be like in the context of this you know materialistic culture you have to somehow get to the point where there's something Beyond just the material however you get to that spot sure because I think you can't you can still do a lot of good you know like you can get to uh what's the thing Buddhism without beliefs or something where people sort of are like scientific people but they they like Buddhist Meditation or whatever that's totally cool I'm not we're not trashing that anymore uh maybe we did episodes of trash it I can't remember we talked about it I don't think we trash it um uh but you know the whole thing about like uh uh you have to like there is this other part that at least you should hear right so for example with my son sometimes we'll be just together or I'll be walking down the stairs and he'll be watching something on TV like Gilmore Girls he's really into Gilmore Girls and I'll go um don't forget your Buddha nature and we'll go okay and it's just like a running bit that we do don't forget you with the nature don't forget you have a Buddha nature and it was cute because one of the gifts he maybe at some point was he got one of these kits for making these elaborate wooden boxes you know uh you can put the kit together and it has these very complicated latch systems where all these gears turn you know there's even a key where you could lock it with the one that he got so you know he got help but he put it together so it's this kind of very complicated wooden box and when you open up inside of it it's cute so you open up inside of it sometimes you have to use a little key if I block it when you open up there's just a little note written in there that says don't forget your Buddha nature like in the Box very cute it was a funny thing to open the first time so anyways I think we both had like points in this right yeah of of this and then I guess the last part for me of this and then we'll move on and talk about the Supreme source I was thinking about during the week because the conversation was good for me and then I was you know teaching classes grad school classes that I teach and I thought yeah you know I was talking with Buddhism the students and I was like yeah there is a way in doing this there's a way that's kind of expedient means where you want to go through and you want to like present things in a way that speaks to the person's life like in the moment right where they're at and how they're going to prove improve their life for themselves now but then I thought well if you only do that well then you don't get to the more bigger picture ideas where a lot of the you know the other aspects of Truth are within this right so I thought okay but on the other end of course if you just present the big high abstract ideas then like people be like well this doesn't connect to me right right so it occurred to me in the way it hadn't hit me before I think post our conversation which was I better like do both all the time I better make sure that when I'm presenting things I present it in a way that's like on point for people to relate to in the now or try to remember to do that right and then also present the like the more uh you know big picture higher level implication potentially too right at this you know both do both of these things and I guess that's something that I learned in that conversation too I was like yeah yeah that's important thing for me to think about to do both of these things I have a concern that a lot of times we don't present the more big picture ideas you know everything's kind of like made to be like uh here's I can do some meditation and it'll make you more effective at your job at uh at uh uh whatever Google you know they're like okay well that's cool but you know there's more to it than that so I get concerned in that way but and so sometimes I might have a lean towards the one side of this but I I was just like I could make a point of reminding myself you know do both sides of these which I guess is like why the episode on the sixth zen master or patriarch if you still like that word was important because on the one hand he's trying to present something that's very concrete that people could work on in the here and now right you know tap into this deeper formless expansive part of who you are and then also you know see that connected to the environment around you so he's trying to make it concrete you know uh think good thoughts of how you want to help people that'll be your that'll be your enjoyment body of the Buddha you know recognize this deepest part of who you are that's more Transcendent that will be your Dharma Kaya and then go through and see how these things manifest in the world around you that will be your mnemonic higher your emanation body I was like well that's pretty handy anyway so this these things are coming together for me so I don't know um that makes sense to you what I was trying to say there yeah yeah no I get it and I think from from my part you know we have the the physicality and the kind of the limitations and you know that you've highlighted over the last kind of couple episodes here as a means for as a means for our Transcendence you know he's like a vehicle for this yes that and that like the limitations are there specifically set up so that one can one can make it through that because the difficulties of it are quote unquote real right they feel real and they are real I mean but like they're there I mean I don't know the way that I look at it is that like everybody has their own particular unique challenges that are just for them just some like weird Chinese finger trap you know that is designed for them and themselves only you know what I'm saying that's true that's right and there's of course there's some Universal issues that we're all trying to you know based on society and our need for reproduction and survival and waste elimination and housing and okay all of that but you know when we when we Whittle it down to like someone's own path in their own development they have particular challenges that are for them and sometimes we could share them and so maybe you learn something and share that helps me or we should learn and share something with our viewers that helps them but like each person's individual life has their own set of unique Channel challenges and some of these are physical some of these are transcending like these these natural occurrences that we have right that are unconscious and so as we you know work towards becoming conscious of our Consciousness right as a lot of the people like to say it'll it enables us to overcome the things that are placed here I believe you say they're physical do you mean they're physical in terms of the idea like things that are wrong with their physical body or they're just things that have to take place in the physical world both all of that both okay yeah they're there for them but they're they're very they're they're intrinsically tangible you know like you can you can grab you can almost grab them you want to have a kid you have to get a kid or not have a kid and that's going to impact how you are that kid is a thing the kid is a thing yeah and then if it does happen you'll have consequences if it doesn't happen you'll have consequences but that's right yeah right and your ability to work through them is that's for you that's for you to do episodes on like uh relationships and sexuality and those are going to involved with other people yeah yeah companies and things in the universe so it's true yeah and so these kind of like so the material aspect of our existence I think is almost inherent in our ability to transcend it yeah yeah or in any case we're interested in past that do this otherwise we wouldn't be out in the world doing what we're doing correct right I could take the attitude like I'm gonna pull away from everything and like I climb to a cave and the top of the Himalayas or the top of the Appalachians or on the Rocky Mountains and I'll try to sequester myself in a cave but we're not doing it no but even even them they're they'll be physical stop there too yeah they're doing physicals if I break my ankle and it's gonna get gangrenous and you know then I have a physical problem but right at the top of a mountain or not right right I have more of a problem being on the top of the mountain obviously and what you know and some of the stories that you know that really impress people you know of let's say whether they're true or not but you know of Mela Rapa right you can go to his cave and milarepa is this um how would you explain him Eric Miller as as uh he's like uh like one of these fundamental Tibetan Buddha spiritual figures yeah and there's all kinds of stories about him and he has we haven't ever done his story like the way we did this the sixth patriarch slash Den Master right we probably will at some point like there's all kinds of like deep backstory about all of his adventures and yeah all the stuff that happened with him but they would say he's the first lay person non-reincarnated master or something in some ways yeah and then like a like a real Tibetan figure doing this he's important because he's a Tibetan he's not an Indian person right yeah yeah other Tibetans too but he's important because he's a Tibetan Tibetan everyone recognized his story as Tibetan yeah almost quintessentially so in many ways right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and right including the fact that he's like you know killed people and like you know it's a black magic and people yeah like he does some [...] that's like oh yeah exactly but like you can go to it so they you know they've supposedly identify his identified his cave and you could see his Footprints in it and you can see the uh on the top part of the cave that it's almost like scorched oh and they'll say that that's you know this happened during the time of his enlightening process that he generally you know his his tumor his body heat was in such a way his his Aura was in such a radiant state that even the Rocks around him couldn't contain it right and it left a physical Mark and so this isn't you know it these stories you know they they kind of last yeah yeah you know like I guess as a western person you'd be like well was it really his cage did they really burn the thing up in the ceiling and but the thing is you know we've never done episodes on this this is a funny episode because we like the tangent but um there are those ones where they do studies on people doing the deeper breathing yeah internal fire young heat building Kundalini practices whatever words you like to use that's a good one and they raise their body temperatures yeah like by a lot you know so they like people from Harvard gone and they'll pop their body temperature up to like 107 degrees or something you know and when the exercises they do is like they put like these damp towels on people and uh you know they'll Steam and stuff it's like a whole thing yeah I can't remember there was one where it was funny because there was one of the monks they were looking at and they were researching him I read it and you know one of the reports from these Harvard people yeah and he was doing his tumor and his body temperature was falling like it was going really low and and the researcher was like oh yeah it was one of the ones that they had talked with the Dalai Lama about and the Dalai Lama had said oh he's not very good at this practice but the Harvard guy was like okay he may not be good at this practice or whatever from like from the Tibetan point of view but he's doing something right something's changing God just dropping his body temperature really low so how how the [...] is he doing that right he shouldn't be able to do that right he shouldn't be able to consciously alter his set point even if he's doing it in the wrong direction he's like you shouldn't have dial Mama said you shouldn't have chosen Mark uh Wesley over here he's a far better practitioner it sounded like that kind of a thing you know they were like yeah the dollar was like well you can reach this guy but he's not that great but the funny part it was that like nothing happened it wasn't like when they did it for uh Mark right as opposed to Wesley he got nothing they're like that guy sucks he can't even do anything no he was doing this weird thing too yeah just in a different direction none of them you're supposed to be able to do anyways right okay so that's the physicality part right uh and yeah I've been doing these kind of tumor practices in my life too I don't know how great I am at them but uh uh they add a lot to my life and um and uh uh it's a physical thing so yeah I hear you there's a physical aspect to this all right well I guess we're transitioning to the last part of everything the Supreme Source transition transition hard transition what's not that hard of a transition so part of the way this connects back to what we were talking about to me would be that you can't get the idea there's something Transcendent of your body it's hard to connect to teachings like this yeah I think it's hard because it's almost asking you to believe that there's something more yeah right so we did this one last episode uh in this slightly twisty Turvy conversation we're having here but I think it's coming together and you know the gist of that one is it's a very unique text in that it talks about the Supreme source of everything and how everything is a manifestation of the Supreme Source it uses a lot of different language for this so sometimes it says Supreme and uh and a pure and total Consciousness sometimes it says I'm self-arising wisdom you know sometimes it says I'm the ground of spirit and uh nature natural insight wisdom I don't know maybe that's my language for that but it definitely says Supreme Source pure and total Consciousness sulfurizing wisdom it says he himself is the womb from which all phenomena originate so there's a total like gender busting aspect to this too right which is very interesting uh in our culture now Boston the genders apart um but so anyways it's it's this amazing text from uh from uh a Buddhist point of view because it is so theistic we talked about that last week right there's definitely a personification of this and then some levels not you know so it plays this game of to what extent do you want to call this uh a he or a she or uh they a or an it or whatever all these like different words seem like they could be applied here so it's very uh theistic and it's also kind of very Taoist those of uh people listening who like have some interest in taoism and background in that because it talks about this Source from which everything comes out yin and yang though they don't use those words but yin yang the five phases or the five elements of the universe all the different beings in the universe are just this manifestation of the Supreme source and it reminded me back to our Mary Kay episode so we had back in the day where we did talk about this question sometimes you can see things as a source but then you can also see that everything is a manifestation of this source so you're always sort of in the sea of this Source right you're always in this sea of wisdom and Bliss and emptiness if you want to make it like tantric sounding right but it's a very fascinating text and like it was one of the one of the ones where you know I had read it and I thought oh Daniel should really read this one too because it kind of connects back to questions that we you and I both have had because we came from uh you know backgrounds that were theistic right right and then we're also exposed a lot to things that are in Asian culture right that are not necessarily theistic so anyways it's kind of an interesting text for people who are have these different parts of themselves coming together yeah all right so as far as what's left of this I wanted to say just a couple of things and you know get your feedback on this too Daniel the parts that you also find interesting so here's what I had on my mind one was the idea that there's a couple I think rallying cries in this text in this style of thinking about things so the one part is what I was just talking about this idea that you're supposed to see everything is the manifestation of this supreme source so I kind of like we both kind of chose a couple of little readings uh that we thought were relevant so here's how the Supreme Source talks uh it says listen great being I will explain my nature to you the only one it nevertheless manifests in two aspects and the two aspects seems to be this like Transcendent aspect and then the very concrete things of the world around you right and it'll say things like the teachers the teachings the disciples all the things of the world these are kind of two sides of the same coin right these are the two aspects um and then so part of its attitude though is to see everything as a manifestation of this Pure Source so it says it's being is pure and total Consciousness and it's Abode as a dimension of a central reality it shines in the sky of pure instantaneous presence that's kind of a Buddhist sounding technical term there almost but everything around you this instantaneous presence of it it pervades in all habitats and forms of life it gives rise to the whole animate and inanimate World it has no material characteristic that can be shown uh is is not an object that can be seen nor can it be explained in words well that's going to sound very Dallas for people who know the doubt right that's the very first chapter of the devil teaching right this fundamental substance not con not produced by causes transcends all definitions based on Concepts and it goes on to continues it says if you really want to understand this date take the sky as an example yeah this guy is kind of a metaphor for this right the ultimate under unorigin nature as kind of being analogous to like contemplating the open empty quality of the sky okay that's why I sort of wanted to kind of like kind of get to that part you know one of the rallying cries of this text in terms of a practice that you can imagine doing this speaks to you is just to see everything as this manifestation of this source and if you just do this this comes back to the one of the Zen Masters Bond Kai talks this way too if you want to just try to do this as an exercise just keep reminding yourself of that maybe during like a whole week would be an exercise you could do you know every time you're seeing something kind of remind yourself oh that's that's the Supreme source manifesting in these objects around me so no matter who you encounter no matter what you encounter you can make this your practice right and just try to remind yourself of this right and it's a very uh it's a very deep one right and uh and uh but now there's a certain like deep tradition this so Bankai talks about this if you just keep reminding yourself of this and you also get this in some of the what they would call the mahamudra practices to are a little similar to this potentially where you just keep reminding yourself of this if you want to go deep into these things of course you can go farther but just on a very basic level that's the thing that everyone can do and their life very concretely you know you look at the little mic thing and you're like oh yeah this is like this is supreme source if they don't see it that way because it manifests in two aspects the part that's appearing now and then this underlying sort of hidden part of itself right it's kind of an amazing way to do things one of the things they say in um some of the great old Buddhist tantric things too is it's especially used for sometimes people who have like busy lives right where your life is very hectic and you're like well I can't what am I supposed to do like in the Heat of the Moment what am I I can't concentrate on myself as some like Fantastical yamantaka like Buddhist image I can't do that I gotta pay attention to my work I gotta pay attention to my clients I gotta pay attention to my patients at the patient pay attention to my family I don't I haven't built up this thing where I can like you know do all these funky visualizations and all this stuff you know it's very interesting there's like sarahah there's these texts that are called like a song for the queen song for the king you know and then the song for the king there's this part where they're just really talking about the reality of like if you're a king you're really busy right lots of people needs things from you at every single second and so sometimes when that's talked about in the modern context people live lives that are pretty hectic you know and they demand a lot of mental concentration from you in every moment if you just take a second or two like the like the song for The King and just recognize oh yeah I'm seeing this supreme Source all the time let me just keep reminding myself of that it's very simple but kind of like powerful thing you could potentially do uh that so interesting it goes all the way back to these longer older traditions where they talk this way the song of the king so it's interesting because that the passage that you read is the one that I was going to read if you didn't oh [...] we both came to the same one yeah because the Scott because the image of the sky is uh is such a it really it's one of the few things that I think transcends conception you know and yet it's totally conceptual um to this point and and funny you bring up because oh yeah y'all can remember being a kitten like staring up at the sky you could play on the grass on your back and to scare up at the sky and just let your mind like expand just expand out into the sky right and even now you know people go on vacation you know it's like you get away from the city lights and you remember there's like this guy is littered with Stars once you get away from the ambient like litter yeah and this it's no longer blue right it's there's it's just atmospheres it's clear you just see out and you were like yeah yeah we're on a rock yeah floating in space you know even though this rock is totally flat I'm just kidding wait have we ever mentioned that this podcast is a flat earther podcast is another part yeah if you want to see uh uh flattered flat or anything with the twist that's our Companion podcast you know but I actually like I had this so I do meditations with some friends and uh we did one last night and that was my this was my meditation oh this guy uh no no no that like how how to understand that things arise from the infinite potential of all arising they come from it and yet are still part of it at the same time yeah yeah and that specifically consciousness is is connected to its original Source always but it but like I I couldn't I had a moment I had a moment where I understood it and then another part where I was having a hard time because it's a deep concept you know and it's like what it was told to me was like imagine everybody having a string attached to where it came from but now just cut the string it's still can eat it right you know it's still it's still kind of connected so it's it's a deep it's a deep thing you know and I think that people who have you know monotheistic backgrounds this can kind of fit right into that kind of like Vibe it was written for people who maybe were so immersed in monotheism but they wanted to write kind of a version that expedient means those people yes to to you know so I think it does everything comes together look at Jin and tadra wow it's coming like it I don't have my glass with me you know to show that you know yeah oh well uh but in any case you know it's the idea that it will come together that's coming together um like so in the in the text itself it makes this kind of funny point about this too it says some people are attracted to Oneness in unity and then you know that's one way of turning the mind right and it says other people are attracted to Multiplicity the infinite variety of things right and to me even in the way that you were talking it's sort of like the bridging of the gap between those two things what's the multiplicity what's the unity or something right of everything being together and you you could play with that right and the Heart suture they had the parts where they talked about like emptiness and form right the two sides yes but the trippy thing for me is if you think about something like this it's like what's really happening it's saying that if you like it's really your mind that you're tweaking kind of right you're tweaking your way of thinking about things you're just saying okay I'm gonna keep reminding myself that even though it's just like a little Globe over here on my son's desk it's the Supreme Source even though it's just whatever the hell this thing is you know what it is it's the Supreme source and so on right that you just keeps like it's what's really happening there where you're kind of tweaking your mind to recognize things a certain way and that's what you're really trying to change well that's that's what I was saying before that's exactly what I was referencing it's the what we have transcending the limitations of what we have you know that's the that's the place in which you will grow those are the places in which you will achieve because you're you're you're changing the mold you're breaking the mold you're you're altering the course of your current trajectory you know by having these realizations by practicing and preparing yourself to have these realizations I you know have come more become more patient with the way in which the information comes it's because it has to like come within you and then like change you know it's like when you drop some food coloring in the water it has to take time to disperse like immediately it has to be spread right right it has to work its way through and make the changes and so then the mental changes the physical you know in that in that part um so it all you know signal coming into the cell phone that's going to rewire itself but you have to give it time for it to reboot that's right that's right that's right uh they were all different right so the process is going to go a little different for different folks I mean I think they recognize that you know in these things I think they're recognizing like yeah you know it's going to be different for different people well I'm like you have different draws and stuff and like you mentioned you know we talked about these like low and high aspects of things you know so there's the you know the high aspect is like the you know the sort of deep contemplation on how this acts on a universal kind of level and what does that mean and what you know manifestations of sentience from you know manifestations of local sentience from an in from an Infinite Source right but then also then on a lower level and not lower is in lesser but just more tangible kind of a level like the changes that occur to you in your life once you have these realizations you know or once you even start contemplating them that it's possible you know that you on a regular basis can go through and alter the way in which you see people and see local phenomenon as a manifestations of something larger to give you a different uh experience with how you live your life and how you share that with other people it's a funny thing because you know we're doing these episodes and uh they do have in them hidden these like different practices oh for sure right they have these practices in there and I've had some you know I had a little bit of a rougher summertime into the end I had depth of my family a little bit of heartbreaks of different kinds and during the week I think after the one we did on the sixth zen master patriarch uh uh Hui dang I was thinking yeah I really have to remember to ground myself in my own Buddha nature you know really you know put your money where your mouth is and really try to do it and I could see that you know that was very healing feeling to me you know to go and like let me purposely make the point of this let me follow the advice that we just been talking about from the platform Sutra let me make sure I do this and then in the immediacy of doing that then I like automatically felt like a lot better um you know it was like very immediate right like um not even just like in time but it was making a difference to the me here and now right you know just not as some abstract teaching about achieving some more abstract Enlightenment or something right it felt different for me like in my immediate life right here and now I feel like oh I do have some Buddha nature dharmakai a part of me like this old Chinese guy is saying from a long time ago let me see if I can feel it and I was like yeah this feels a lot better you know just to try to find this part of myself okay so we were doing the the part of this whole thing was to talk about ideas of the three bodies and you know what's that supposed to be about and so as we get to the like maybe last two subjects on this at the end of the like this little episode we're gonna wrap up on the Supreme Source this issue of the three bodies does come up here um and so to pull back to our whole series we've been doing what is this thing have to do with this conversation about these three manifestations or Kaya's body of Enlightenment like what's up with that with as far as this little Supreme Super Source text goes I shouldn't say little this profound Supreme Source sex yes so uh so it says from this sulfurizing wisdom Source thingy their Rises three Natures that manifest as the three dimensions sometimes when they talk about things in Buddhism they'll say there's like these three big sweeping aspects of nature gross subtle and very subtle and um so it talks about that and it talks about the sources and you know the teachers of Enlightenment within all of this sort of uh uh these three levels of things and it kind of starts to break them down so here's what it tries to say it tries to say the Dharma Kaya aspect of things is kind of like the Supreme Source itself which makes sense this unborn aspect that transcends everything and it uses the word secret to describe this idea this is the secret idea right and that's supposed to be the Dharma Kaya truth body reality body aspect of things we've been talking about this for a few episodes now trying to make this idea maybe more comfortable for people and looking at different angles on it so that's this part and we've heard this kind of thing before in Zen they kind of talk this way too right okay then it has this part where it wants to talk about this enjoyment manifestation or body some bogakaya as Robert Thurman points out this is related to the the word for orgasm So it's talking about enjoyment lists these kinds of things and so it says this is when like the person is able to have the perfect enjoyment of everything probably by recognizing that everything is this supreme source you'll start to have more and more joy in your experience of things and it caught it calls this the inner aspect of things or the inner teaching and then it says with the mnemonicaiah then it kind of flips gears a little bit and it says the capacity to emanate in any ways necessary to teach now we've seen like in some of the stuff when we have really high ideas this could mean like things that would seem sort of even Supernatural right this idea and Robert Thurman likes to talk about that to manifest as a as a marker that the person needs a marker or a piece of paper the person needs a piece of paper yeah he likes yeah he likes to talk that way yeah he'll say uh to um whatsoever to whomsoever yeah which has a that's a high idea right yeah yeah but also in like a more basic level if our goal is to do both when then you know this could be what we all like probably want to do if we want to help people in our lives yeah for sure we want to be able to to emanate in the way that will be helpful to them expedient means yeah he also I also listened to him talking today and he talked about this being an extension of compassion you know and compassion is being the as one in one way is having the ability to um manipulate or or have one's energy in a way that is beneficial for another person when they when they need when they're there when they need it you know yeah that like you're able to do that for them so if somebody comes in in a in a tangible way like in a low way right uh someone's sad you're able to provide them with Joy or humor you know something to have that moment to help yeah deal with that those emotions right exactly helpful to them correct correct which is kind of like an interesting thing because they will say and then we'll talk about the dilemma with all this stuff eventually uh probably next week is our available to do a little bit on that yeah and then we'll probably close the series up but you know uh they say like the Dharma Kaya is really for the person when you find your Dharma Kaya part of who you are that's for you that's your freedom that's your Liberation that's your Moksha you know that's your Nirvana right the ability to go and project this stuff out in ways that are benefit to others that's that's the harmonica part that's the emanating part you know that's the part that you have for other people so I guess like what you were talking about like at different times during these couple of episodes the fact that you're emanating in a body or something like that is to you know if you want to take the most positive attitude towards that it's because you're trying to reach out to help other people you can always do that you know you start saying what am I doing here in this body you can say well I'm trying to be here to help other people I was just talking with uh uh something about this in the past week where we had like a kind of interesting conversation about like just that feeling she listens to the podcast and she was like yeah sometimes this conversation comes up with like I don't even know why I'm not from this planet I'll say that occasionally and she was like yeah she that Vibes with her you know she knows that feeling and then she spontaneously said something like well I guess if I'm here I'm here to try to like help some other people I was like but that's it now you're a bodhisattva like instantaneously you're about yourself I admit you have that attitude right you're in Buddhist you're a being trying to seek Enlightenment to help other people right is extraterrestrial I guess it is technically right you would feel extraterrestrial um so anyways at the end of the Supreme Source though when you get to these three bodies things there's kind of this weird blurring because on the one hand the Supreme source is everything right yeah on the other hand you have these different levels or something and they're trying to talk about that issue you know the one in the many the one thing in the multiplicities of things so that's part of it and I think there's some nice practical advice that people can use just for like if you this kind of thing speaks to you you have ways of trying to think about this how do I like like imagine some of these things contemplate some of these things remind yourself of some of these things just in your everyday life like in the song of the king the other thing that comes up with this is this idea of naturalism and we could contrast this a little bit with the Dalai Lama presentation next week for different ways to speak to different people but you know the other part that like is the rallying cry for this kind of uh approach or tradition is this idea to kind of like because everything is a supreme Source just let it be let it be Paul McCartney don't [...] with it just let it do its thing you know and uh that's a very powerful idea you know and it'll say like everything is going to kind of like perfectly manifest itself so like Let It Flow or if your Taoist be woo way let things flow and allow things to kind of do what they're going to do there's a sort of like a maybe kind of a set of famous verses around this so I thought I would like throw them out there Daniel will hear what you think about them too sure it's gonna have a good way it could be putting the Capper on this cap it up so it says as the Supreme Court Source tends to talk listen great being exclamation point um the nature of the variety of phenomenon is non-dual okay so there's some of that one in the many thing yet each phenomenon is beyond the limits of the Mind the conceptual mind right the authentic condition as it is does not become a concept yet it manifests totally inform always good that's kind of the important part right um all being already perfect overcome the sickness of effort and remain naturally in self-perfection this is contemplation so that's sort of the verse there right and so you get this real begin I'd say rallying Cry of like naturalism since everything is the Supreme Source just let that recognize that and then allow that to kind of be as it is and then that way you're tapping into the deepest parts of things or something like that because they're all this anyways this kind of idea I think the the hard naturalism is really important here yeah the hard part about that is that that sort of flies in the face with all of the work you know no well that's that's it you know of course it's a kind of a work to do this of course yeah yeah yeah it almost seems like you're generating a trust in the Universal process of evolution or something like this and I also feel like it's like see I'm not even sure if they're really saying even that so they might be but I also feel like they're saying like the main point is just to see everything as Supreme source so once you've done that you've cracked it and then in that case you don't have to like I don't know uh try to meditatively transform the world around you don't try to see the world as a mandala you don't have to go through and do art what would be artificial things or something from the attitude of this book right just allow things to be as they are so you that's the that's like I think it's sometimes in the this is a zocchion book great Perfection book sometimes I think they call it the leap over or something so you're that moment you leap you're kind of conventionally just saying everything's gonna work out really great that's not even the point I don't think I think the point is like you have this realization like oh everything is just Dao or God or whatever and then you're merged in that so you're you're you're sort of like fixing your your your iris if you were you know like your your telescope of your of your perception yeah could be penetrating through the you know mundane appearances yeah to perceive the the truth behind it all that it is all Supreme Source always yeah I think that's I think that's the main point and this then is sort of like and when I'm talking about the work and what you're referencing in terms of like from a vadriana perspective from a visualization perspective an internal and you know an external reflection on an internal practice like a meditative technique perspective too yeah something like that right that like that's a that's a that's a sort of like internal to external way of changing your perception to see your world around you as a Buddha field or as an enlightened space one that you also occupy yes I guess they're saying like just since you're going to have two aspects what you see is your mundane conception you can still sort of that with some illusion right but behind the illusion is that everything is this beautiful Supreme source and that's like the technique I guess you would say right the technique is actually that you know and I suppose that's really interesting when you think about the evolution of things because like Trump may still win the election or you know China will still invade Tibet or global warming may still happen well some of these are more likely to have to happen well some are done deals right yeah uh and some are like statistical you know uh probabilities that's correct yeah uh so I don't think it's supposed to be the idea that you know everything's gonna turn out like on a relative level like super awesome or something you're waiting for like you know uh the wizard is gonna like fix everything you know and all of a sudden it's gonna look superficially super awesome it may not but behind it there's this I guess if you're being philosophically fancy you might use the word like ontological truth or something yeah you know that behind it all no matter how it looks there's you're within this sea of bliss or something in a certain sense that's the technique though you know what I mean and how do they reconcile how do they reconcile with like suffering and you know things like this I think from the point of view of a work like this it's saying like if you can tap into everything as being the Supreme Source then it'll it'll Auto convert all of these experiences or something like that you know do you think that that would Place one's suffering as a technique or something you know what I mean that's the that's the trick and with that then would that then how would that then Place ones where or how would that then Place one suffering in their own life well I think there's a whole thing I remember reading about like uh the karma you know and he was I'm just like trying to use this as maybe a story to illustrate the point and what's and who's what's a karmaba oh yeah that's right so the karap is kind of like the equivalent of like the Dalai Lama he's like the head of one of the schools of Tibetan yes yeah so um uh yeah so uh so anyways so it's like the karma that passed away recently you know within our I can't remember how many years ago like within the last few decades or something yeah exactly but maybe in like late 80s or something yeah um but in any case like you he had cancer and you're like well he should be in tons of pain but he's not or at least he isn't showing it in any way you know and uh you know and part of the idea was it's because he was in this zone right and it changes your relationship even to like that kind of like physical pain and suffering and those kinds of things hmm I can't help and again this is maybe my own way of thinking or maybe the limitations of my own way of thinking I don't know but in like having and looking at this and thinking about these kinds of traditions what I feel about them is they're offering kind of like a very specific kind of way of approaching life you know it's a very particular kind of technique no matter what's happening see it as this pure sea of bliss just keep doing that over and over again right even if on the relative levels the event the relevant relative levels of reality events are going unfortunately sure right and it's probably inevitable that parts of it is going to go unfortunately right just the odds of things you know we're all going to have sickness we're all going to have uh ultimately you know the bodies are going to wear out and so on right and concerns about our loved ones going through the same things it's very natural that's the Duke on question right yeah yeah the technique part if I want to say it's a technique would be like seeing this other side and that's sort of the power of the technique because that will that's the great Perfection I guess you'd say technique yeah yeah because I will say and we have to wrap up in just a few minutes here but I will say when I get to some states like I was in last night which you know requires you know it requires multiple sessions a day and it requires for me you know good yoga practice exercise and then a good while first to settle in you know probably 20 25 minutes again after I practice multiple times in a day then I get into like an extremely deep State and these questions will arise naturally they kind of just come up they're like oh hey do you ever consider this or whatever and then I get to a point where like I feel like I'm thinking a little bit too much or I'm analyzing a little bit too much and there's just some voice that I've heard I don't know a dozen times in the last year it's like you're there you're there you don't have to try you're there right now you're there you're there and there is like you know as someone who hears that and Who does these kind of like contemplative meditations where you're very aware of what's occurring you're just we're observing okay I hear this I see this I feel this I'm this is going on you don't take anything at least I don't I don't take anything even if it's deep wisdom I'm not like oh yes I'm finished now I'm gonna go get up and go get my you know whatever my tea you know like you take it and you chalk it up on your little chalkboard and you go about your business and then you reflect on it and see does this you know does this have Truth for me is this a thing for me but I will say that like it's come up numerous times and and part of me wants to give it credit not because I'm like oh I'm there I'm done no but like from the from the view of like the Supreme Source you are already there yeah and it's a night you know so this fits that's the that's the position that the text is saying This song is called the cuckoo of presence I don't know how cuckoo like the poem we were just looking at that little verse and how cuckoo translates but it's like uh uh it's a bird call right trying to say hey kukuriku or cock-a-doodle-doo or whatever you know I'm here behind every object so that's the method you would say and I guess the idea and I you know I take conversations with people like even Chicago I bought this back in the day that I have some vibe in this direction oh for sure it's like um uh that's the training then you know so though I think the way this kind of approach let's just say it's an approach right yeah yeah it's supposed to work is you're always reminding yourself wait a minute if you want to be theistic that's God that's not just a globe right that's Claude right this is not just a cell phone this is the Dao you know this is not just a marker this is the Supreme Source right but you're not just all the time you're supposed to be saying that to yourself and it's supposed to trigger and the person who's doing the practice a kind of a feeling of bliss and emptiness and whatever you're training yourself in that space so that even when something adverse happens which inevitably it's going to happen probably today you can go into that space right hopefully not as bad as I mean you know if we want to talk about real suffering you know well right yeah hopefully you can keep finding your way back to that space and then maybe ultimately you're like the karma and even though you're sick um uh you know there you go right and you can still find your way back to this space the last little verse goes something like listen great being understand the real meaning thus exclamation point all that appears is one in the fundamental condition let nobody correct it exclamation point and the Supreme unaltered equality abides the state of knowledge of non-discursive dharmacaya so you're supposed to somehow get to that zone even when you're sitting there just doing your other stuff you know you're driving in the car you're sitting in the office pouring yourself a cup of coffee you're supposed to always be reminding yourself to go back to this place and I guess when you meditate you work on that when you're still right where you can kind of work on that that that part of it more right I mean and then when you're out in the world you just keep reminding yourself to go back to that thing especially if you found it in your meditative practice it's something like that it's a very particular style yeah right and a way of being in the world but it has an argument behind it yeah everything is a supreme source and then it has like I guess we would say a technique of what you're supposed to do with that yeah you don't have to change stuff around you like visualize and do other things you can let things be what they are as long as you keep recognizing underneath yeah and like and again as far as maybe what could be helpful with people this is also be something that's supposed to be easier to do in busy life and you're constantly having things being bombarded at you you know you can if you can always just learn how to do that part not easy but it has uh on the one hand not easy but on the other hand like easy in the sense that you know it's uh right it's a simple move right it's a simple move well keep doing it so this you know we I think we talked about this before and we probably got a wrap in a second here but in uh the Sufi Muslim practice or in the super Muslim tradition when they go to when they go to mosque to pray it's not it's called zikr z i q r or z-i-k-r zikr to me to remember or something and that's exactly right it means to remember yeah to remember right that remember that God is the source of all creation and then you you're practicing saying Mantra different names of God over and over and over again to remind yourself of this very thing yeah yeah because there's a that's the that's like the technique to trigger your brain to go in that direction or something yeah but sometimes in this jokes I think it's like well let's do this really let's call the leap over right we have to go through and let's just go and say we could do a mantra and mantras are beautiful yeah I do tons of them they help right they're very they're great but this is a different technique it would be like no don't do the mantra leap over right right and just see everything is this and right send yourself that way yeah cool I'm glad we did it yeah I know it's great I'm glad we did it because it's another version of talking about the three bodies it's another way of practicing and you don't know what's going to Vibe with different people who might be listening right different people have different things that this will click with simple on some love right simple right cool but uh but not so simple but not so simple yeah but simple right yeah relative essentially well relative Simplicity yeah yeah well Eric as always thank you so much my friend I definitely appreciate it uh thank you to our audience for tuning in for sharing for you know being a part of our work and and and really like I guess our exploration of these topics you know with each other but then to other people we do love the feedback uh whether you you know Tech if you know us personally you know text us or send us a you know uh you know whatever DM that we appreciate that you know or you see us in real life and say hey man thanks for uh for doing what you do or I like this or I didn't like that or you know whatever nice hat something like that um you know but if you're not in that if you're not in the Inner Circle just yet uh feel free to uh we'd love to have you there by the way if you're not um but you know but feel free to hit us up at gin and Tantra gmail.com you can hit us up on Jin and Tantra on the Instagram if you're watching this on YouTube feel free to leave a comment or something like that you know we definitely appreciate it if you find our work useful or even mildly entertaining share it with those who you would uh you know like to give maybe a valentine too because Valentine's Day emphasis in the word mildly even if it's just mildly yeah yeah uh but yeah hit us up for you know forever you know questions and suggestions and some love we definitely appreciate it if you're listening to us on Apple podcast leave us a review it definitely helps out the uh the show and yeah for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace