[Music] one hello everybody thanks for tuning in to Jin and Tantra spirituality with the twist you have uh Daniel driving the ship tonight co-pilot by uh our friend of the show and and now uh contributor Rory hiltbrand Rory thank you for coming out Rory do you have your doctorate or or are you Dr Rory yes Dr Dr Rory that's right yes Dr Rory um Rory um I think when did I meet you over a little over a year ago and we had and you were on uh at some point last year maybe middle of middle beginning of last year which uh you know the episode had a really good you know good good I guess feedback we could say and so uh I was like you know in this new Venture that we're doing here you were the first person I was like oh Rory's got to be a regular on here so uh here you are thanks for rocking man thanks man love to be here love just chopping it up love your Vibe and this was the first podcast I did so you know I had a lot of fun too and happy to be here awesome awesome well uh yeah so let's let's get into it you know we have we have kind of like a multiple threads that are happening here right so Eric and I are working on this like Karma mudra Kamasutra tantric flow that we're that we're weaving together that has been started last year and it's probably going to go for quite some time um and I'm going to mention it every time so if everybody's tired of hearing about it then just sign up and I'll stop talking about it you know but we have our Retreat coming up in the beginning of March which is a Buddhist tantric you know vajana Meditation Retreat much of which is based on a lot of the principles that we've been talking about throughout our podcast recently and probably for the next few months so we have that as one layer and then the other layer is um with our other now regular guests which you being um one of will kind of be our you know sort of one-off conversations are you know contemporary podcast style things where we you know discuss things that are you know fresh and new and and on our minds and hearts you know so that's uh that's where today will be and so I had this idea earlier um you know because I still work in the medicine space and and I know you you know you have a relationship with all um not all the things but you know many of the things so in that way I wanted to talk about uh you know medicines like plant medicines in general or or a healing space let's make it a little bit more inclusive right and what does it look like or what is the what is the term holding space I've seen some like uh funny videos or people kind of like they just they make invisible boxes and they're like I'm going to hold the space for you and they're just like squeezing nothing you know because it is kind of a new age term Rob would you agree yeah I think it is I think it is and I think a lot of like that a lot of new age terms get a bad rap just with all that they're associated with but yes you know like all cliches there's there's some real power behind it yeah you yeah and so I have this one of my um teachers who's been on here before Mary Kay uh you know she went to the University of Chicago as did Eric and she said that they always like to begin a conversation if they're going to be around a particular topic to give a definition of said Topic in order to have a point to talk around so this penetrated my my simple little monkey brain and now I just repeated ad Naim so uh I don't know that there is NE I'm not going to use the Google definition of holding space I'm going to give what I believe it to be then I'd like for you to give what you believe it to be and then you know we could let the audience uh decide uh who's more right you know we'll put up a poll at the end of the uh episode so maybe I will do a poll we'll see how that turns out um but for me holding space is I could say for the person who is you know it's so it's it's it's a relationship it's a discussion of a relationship and that it's one person who is providing the the space who is creating the container if we can use this term for those who are in the container to ex to allow themselves to become vulnerable let's make it very Broad in this case right and the the term holding space is kind of creating this you know I don't want to use the the term because it's a bit dated right now but like a safe space and that doesn't mean safe space like everybody has to watch what they say or anything else but this is kind of a a sacred safe Sacred Space for expression where things will not be judged things won't be used against you this is a place for not only catharsis but Alchemy as well and in it everything that transpires in here it transpires with the intention of healing or transforming right and so to me that would be what I would consider holding space for somebody it's a non-judgmental compassionate container of expression yeah well I don't know if we can do a poll now because I I would probably agree with you so okay all right but yeah just to expand on it I think it's it's definitely non-judgment and and it's a relationship in that there it's a you're in a field of energy and it's making yourself open to what is you know obviously in in a non-judgmental way without trying to necessarily change it but allowing for the opportunity for the person [Music] to make a change if they so choose which can only happen once that space of acceptance and surrender is really that's where the change can occur yeah yeah yeah that's nice yeah it is a it is a field of energy for sure and it has has a POS potential to do many things and so on a you know there there's multiple layers to this right so we can do one a friend a friend layer right which people do all the time or a family layer you you know you talk to your wife or you talk to your friends or you talk to me and you're an attentative listener you know that's holding space for someone to communicate even if it's just daily things you know and then if it's deeper it's you know their whatever their current financial difficulties or you know digestive troubles you know um but then you know I think what the areas that I wanted to go to a little bit more specifically are that of like you know because you and I both practice you know we're both practicing acupuncturists herbalists right um in terms of like patience you know how do you and it's it's a general a genuine question like how do you approach this aspect of your practice because what I remember from school is that like when we are doing our our intake on people we have questions that we ask they're algorithmic just like any other uh system of of intake would be so you ask some questions you get some answers and you ask more questions based on those answers that's kind of how that is and then we compare and then we not compare it but combine it with um active listening you know to hear the story behind the person to get the healing narrative and that's kind of it they don't really they don't really talk about much else and so you know when you you know now that you've been in pract how long have you been in practice for now just the I mean if you we I graduated in 2020 okay so yeah and then but then but you were seeing patients in school yeah yeah yeah so six years seven six seven years now yeah so how how do you how did you or how do you approach this aspect of your of your practice of listening and working with people I think that's something that you experience pretty early on is something that's very real is you get someone that comes in and what they may be facing in life is like really uncomfortable you and you feel that in yourself and you can really feel that in your body and so I noticed there's like an Impulse to kind of like shy away from certain things and not touch you know certain charged areas or to kind of you know like there's a internal posture or like an energetic posture like a some type of muscle that's that's internally developed in in feeling certain uncomfort and and still Standing Tall and stay and staying open too and allowing and embracing too and not judging and I feel like you have to find kind of fight that impulse to shy away from the discomfort and so that's really like the allowing space and there's so much in that just in being able to be open to someone and to not shy away from because when you allow it within yourself you're allowing the other person to go there too and to really you know feel safe safe in exploring this territory that cuz I feel like you know as human beings a lot of the times ROM almost almost like ostriches or something where we have like our our heads in the sand and whole bodies like exposed to the environment and so we have all these things going on and so I I feel like you know early on in treatment I realized well like whatever it is that comes through the door like it's happening you know someone may have a very traumatic childhood there's all types of traumatic experiences that people go through and so you know can you face that and join them I'm also I'm thought as soon as you brought this up I thought of uh and you talked about judgment IAL I thought about this quote from Carl Young where he talked about you know if you want to heal a patient I'm going to do a really poor job paraphrasing this you know or even accompany them a step along the way you can't judge them you know and so yeah I feel like we that's that's a great this is a great topic and I feel like it doesn't get touched on enough and and really just how important that is the the courage [Music] to move into discomfort and yeah so I I think there's something that you had mentioned about like feeling it in yourself to allow the other person to you know bring it forth or experiencing it and the thing that came to my mind is the term empty vessel so in in and I I believe that there's a couple ways of doing I believe there's a couple ways of doing this right one way is for the practitioner to kind of be a a little bit removed from it right and they create this you know I'm going to call it space but we'll say uh opportunity right and that opportunity could be in their room or if it's you're hanging out with your friend you could be in some you know wherever but it's it's the energetic uh field in and around both people that are there and I think for me I feel like I was taught I don't know from whom or when but to be as close to the outside of that field as possible okay and what you're and but but what's interesting about what you're saying is that like no you're in it with the person and in order for this circuit to be completed right and and that meaning you have a a positive and a negative not you know for our audience who's listening not like positive and negative good and bad I mean electric electric uh you know electrically speaking right electromagnetism that in you have to have both ends of the circuit in order for the electricity to flow and so in what you're saying I had this very clear image of like you sort of being present for the person's you know healing narrative as we like to call it not being not shying away from the difficult difficult difficulties of it and then not necessarily getting drawn into it either but being able to have the maybe emotionality of it without you becoming one with it does that is that about right yeah definitely and and I think it's Nuance too I mean there's so many variables and there's so many different levels too and just reflecting back um like you said sometimes too it's not that I go into the emotions with them right sometimes I feel like maybe that's what they need in order to express it out I feel like you know a lot of healing is just expression whatever whatever you know needs to come up to come out and um so sometimes it's that I you you there's such an art to figuring out you know the medicine has to go down yes so you know what you know are you going to use a spoonful of sugar are you going to you know do they need something sharp or are you at a level I feel like much of my treatments lately and this may change too but I feel like much of them is from a level that's not as engaged emotionally that it's just I'm providing a mirror of what is for them sure that they can sense there's no judgment even if it's a really normally a difficult truth if they can feel that there's no right and wrong from the perspective that I'm seeing y just just what is and instead of right and wrong you know the well-being that they might be missing out on in yeah with a different uh Behavior or mindset or you know pattern and this and and so this is this is from the perspective of a of of a like a medical practice right if we extrapolate one layer I'm not going to say larger but maybe a little bit more towards what people might experience if we move this towards the experience of like working with a plant medicine right and you have some one or two people who are kind of in charge there sort of the practitioner they are the practitioner in that case and everybody who is there is sort of the patient so now we we go from like a one: one ratio and we go to a larger group setting the Dynamics actually are still the same MH they're they're actually exactly the same um but there is definitely like a level of navigation that is required when you're dealing with a group for sure and it's it it does take a unique person to be able to have uh a genuine connection with people for the time that they're expressing right so and I and I'll say for me and you know you could you're you're you know welcome to say for you but like you know generally whenever we work with these you know with various plant medicines it's done in a ceremonial space it's either by yourself or in a ceremonial space and usually there's you know some people who are kind of like leading it we could say and then everybody's sort of on their own you know Journey independently but together at the same time you know and there is such a power in doing healing as a community doing healing as a group because even if you have the most far out experience on whatever you remember the other people around you who also had far out experiences it adds to the not to the drama but to the I guess density or to the depth of the experience because they were going through their own thing around you and it is really important to what you're saying to be nonjudgmental about what people are going through and what it is that they are dealing with whether it be it could be on both hands you know because we hear all types of things being a being in a medicine space and bring being in a in a practice people have very strong reactions to like what we would consider not a big deal perhaps and then other people will have like really deep life experiences and you're like oh my God I am like I have lived an absolutely privileged life here gez like I have nothing to complain about you know what I'm saying and so but you have to kind of thread that line and I I guess I wanted to like chop this up a little bit like I feel feel like and we don't have to do this too deeply but like I feel like there is such a grand divide you know right now in our culture you know and Duality is the disease of the of the you know not just the modern mind but of the Civilized mind we'll call it right that like it's all we're always looking for the New Divide and I feel like this kind of mentality of being a nud non-judgmental listener is kind of like a healing Sav for a multitude of people's divides whether it be political religious whatever environmental whatever it is you know does that does that vibe in your I don't know I think you know absolutely but at the same time like you said like the you need a positive and negative for for life to happen yeah I remember one of my teachers would always say suffering means alive and uh you can also go into it like the whole Duality non-duality is it just another polarity that you're making yeah yeah you know and that the the that's kind of the play of the Dow is to manifest as these these Polar Opposites and M to borrow a line from uh from Alan Watts you know it's you know it's disharmony on one level is Harmony on another level and so like you need all these stresses to your body in order for you to be healthy and so we should see it as something to be overcome to be over camed and we should see it as an issue and that ultimately brings life but on another level you know it's all one thing but I'm it's making me think of like I'm I can talk at this this level but I'm thinking about uh ramas once said you know you have to you have to focus the issue at the level that is required for it so like if you're at home and you have a room Maiden they say it's your time to do the dishes you can't say well we're all one it's true right but there's a confusion of of levels and so it becomes an art and that's that's a really important the way I see dosm is really understanding the levels you know Heaven and Earth and right and man and and everything in between and so then in terms of like H how do how do you bring that into you know this kind of conversation about you know holding space in a number of different environments like when you're talking with someone like do you feel like you actively change hats like are you Dr Rory when you're dealing with your patients and then you know regular Rory when you're at home uh versus you know teacher when you're not or are you able you know or how do you how do you do it you know I guess is my my question yeah I think my focus is always trying to be as just allow and surrender to whatever the moment calls for and so like bring myself to that moment and you know like I said there's an art to to the levels that you address and I feel like I do have different hats but I have different hats for different patients according to what I feel like will benefit them right best and it's not dishonest at all it's like it's completely uh genuine genuine so it's all you know there might be a lot of different dances that I do but it's all in my own kind of style and it's like it's to the beat of my own sure you drum my own heart and uh so for one patient you know I might joke a lot with them to try and get them to understand others I'll be you know I don't like coming down hard on some but some you know need a little bit of like tough love and so you you have to give whatever whatever that moment requires and I feel like all of healing is really it is that force of whatever it is you know it's this Force that field and it's more clear in like in plant ceremonies like how strong that field is and then you know who's who even and uh you know I'm looking at your blanket behind you and I'm just like seeing a plant ceremony like an I going on yeah and so uh it's like um I feel like every is the will of the Dow like I was saying but we need to someone needs to play the role so it's about playing the role in in in different situations there some there's some line I think it's in the babad Gita where he says uh like oh Arjuna you have been as I have always been and so now you know since we're Eternal surrender to play this role that you could only play at this moment in time and space again I'm paraphrasing poor yeah yeah and and so I guess you know I wanted to kind of like you know maybe maybe wrap this this part of our conversation up with just like the the medicine space you know because we let's be honest like it is it is as popular now and only growing in popularity you know the use of psychedelics for healing and I don't think that that I I mean we have not hit Peak popularity for psychedelics yeah I don't even think we're close I agree with you I I you know for you know for us this is like this has been life for a long time yeah but it has not hit fever pitch not even we're not it's you know the Bull Run has not occurred yet you know so um you know and for our audience in no way am I advocating Pro or or con you know I just we give our our experience es I just wanted in part you know and we will give some of our experiences here uh coming up shortly but I wanted to just like highlight the importance of feeling the you know feeling this connection to go want want to go work with it but then understanding that that's part of it the other half is who it is that you're working with and yes ultimately you're working with with whatever plant medicine you're working with for sure but you're a human and there's another human there and probably other ones that are doing the administration and are taking care of you when you're in a vulnerable state and so they call this you know holding space for somebody or or babysitting in a sense depending on how you're doing it you know or guiding or leading or whatever and you know there is not a lot of public service announcements about this obviously we we know that like we should be cautious about who we go work with whether it be massage therapist you know the new restaurant downtown right that you're the reviews are good and they're not giving people food poisoning make sure all of this kind of stuff the same goes in this space even more so it's even more important to really have a deep level of discernment I believe and work with somebody who holds very good space you know um we cannot really know about what people do in their own personal life it's just not possible to like have a 10-year friendship with you know Shaman or whatever um but I feel like once you've decided that you want to do something that doesn't mean that this the first thing that you see now is exactly what's meant for you you're like oh there it is it's like because it's kind of in a lot of places and we probably have people who know about it but to really be uh Discerning and who you work with and talk to them and see how it is that they interact with you and and see if they're exhibiting some of the kind of qualities that that Rory has mentioned here and that that I have mentioned here so that you not only feel safe but you feel um like you can relax you know and that you're you're the they can take you through to the other side of the darkness if you will you know lead you through the The Valley Of Shadows if you will um do you have anything that you wanted to add with that just like I wanted to make sure that like I said you know set the stage and then say the thing yeah no I I completely agree it's so important just like any profession you know there's good teachers Bad Teachers good cops bad cops you yeah all that and and so it is incredibly important because you're diving so deep into the psyche all that becomes you're in a field yeah it's not just the individual and and so yeah I'd completely agree with you and there's something about that you know can can they take you through you know the Valley of Death like you're saying that like I really feel like there's I guess you would call it like your sandou like your nerve like how your spiritual muscle like can you can you is this person G to really like go through hell with you if they yes you trust them to get you through to the other side yes or are they gonna buckle yeah yeah yeah will you be abandoned yeah and those are like the most important the toughest trips are like the greatest ones on the other side too they are uh full of awe but they are not awesome no and again it's yeah it's surrender you know yeah well we are going to uh we're going to give some uh some of our our little Tales here next time uh on on the on the next episode so uh make sure to uh to tune in for that uh Rory thanks for uh thanks for coming on today you know I'm glad you're part of the show here uh and you know as always audience thank you so much for listening uh make sure to like comment subscribe hit us up on the pod on the Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast or hit us up on the email uh the uh what is it Jin and Tantra gmail.com for Rory this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]