[Music] hey fell G and deers those who like our SP spirituality with the twist Daniel's [...] with me again with this as he enjo always always always always big ass shitty and grit on your face for sure I can't hold it together especially for this one because uh we're supposed to do these episodes on attachment Theory but we're not going to do them no not today and it was really kind of like uh what Daniel loves especially much we're just going to improv this [...] out yeah for sure on some that we were talking about which was basically the question of what's the status of spirituality in the culture and did it kind of like die off yes this is a little bit triggered by a conversation with another one of our mutual cohort people you know our kind of s uh uh Anthropologist friend and TCM Chinese medical person Ryan Dort we were having a discussion about this and saying it's something in the culture where spirituality started to fade away and what would be the reasons why and Daniel was like [...] it that's what we're recording that's it but before we get to the main of the interview I'm supposed to do that the interview the conversation I'm supposed to do this which is do us a solid and uh help our beautiful little Jin and Tantra podcast triy to deal with the evil algorithm the Demi urge of the algorithm that's trying to keep all in chained that's right and blinded um and to help like really what we're trying to do is to build our I know digital s or something to build digital online spiritual Community yeah that's our goal so if you can do the things everyone always asks you to do which would be the likings and the subscribing and give a little shout out to us that would be greatly appreciated because it does help overcome the evil algorithm yes that's right yeah all right so cool so how this happened was I'll set it up and then you were right we were about ready to like release the craen this yeah yeah so anyways we talking and I was just saying I don't know I was talking with this Anthropologist um wonderful person Ryan Davenport and uh future episodes to be coming with him probably will like start picking his brain about some things but yeah this was just he and I chatting and I said you know there something where spirituality and the culture just started to die away and what really hit me was I'm listening to this audio book from Ram do and I'm enjoying it he's talking about the babad Gita and kind of giving his takes on different parts of it and I just had the moment where I was like you know I think if this guy came out now no one would give a [...] no one would care it's just like he's a recognized name so people still kind of pay attention but like if he really came out now talking same material same ideas same things no one would give a flying [...] yeah it got me thinking of other people like this like an alen Watts right and I thought God he wouldn't make it either like there was no way that like his message would get out you know now because he's a known Kam body from a previous time you know name recognition and these kinds of things his ideas out there and I was running so what happened and probably you know talking with Ryan about this and I want to get his opinion as sort of a social scientist yeah and it was sort of the idea now spiritual reality started to like fade away and then we're trying to figure out when this happened it came up a little bit funnily enough just to give a shout out to an old interview in our Robert Thurman interview too sure about a little bit with him yeah like almost like 2000 the ODS something started to happen anyways that's the setup Danny was like hit record I have some stuff I want to say about this so this is the episode so I'll throw it back to you Daniel with that I got gave the context thing now what you had to say yeah so it's it's it's an interesting topic which is why I wanted to bring it up you know for a number of reasons one I mean this is Jin and Tantra spirituality with a Twist right and so we talk about things that have a spiritual nature I was was having a conversation with um my mom the other night and you know I was just saying to her like you know as my life has been shifting and changing over the last you know seven or eight months I have I'm doing my work as an as an internal alchemical psychological whatever detective trying to find all the all the bits and pieces that I can to try and put the story together as best as I can in investigating myself right because no one is going to investigate me as as intently as I'm going to so ultimately the responsibility falls upon you know myself to do this and I am doing that and I said but this to me is the spiritual path you can also say it's the psychological path you can also say it's the alchemical path you can also say it's the path of awareness whatever you want to call it to me this is the spiritual path right the one of OB the one of self-observation and then the the the ways to connect it to other teach teachings the things that give you meaning how you can pull um defin not definitions but I guess answers from this sort of the variables that you're given that's the spiritual life so spirituality with the twist really is is looking at life period from different perspectives or or you know different teachings whatever it is that you know and we're coming from the kind of Buddhist Dost tantric you know shamanic world because that's what what we're influenced by we try and pull meaning from the experiences that we have that don't have an inherent meaning it's it's what you what you assign to them what you ascribe to them so then we try and ascribe meaning based on the things that we've read the experiences that we've had the teachings that we've received you know things like this so when when we were talking about this earlier when did things start to kind of fade a little bit um and I and and and he said the 2000s I was like that makes sense well why is that because there's a natural cycle to things you know things going of go in 20 or 30 years Cycles you know and if I can say and this is just coming to me now so beautiful um if we can say that like the in and I'm only going to talk about the us because I don't have the other all all aspects of the the global kind of recent history at the Forefront of my mind and we didn't research this episode so apologies if I get something wrong but I'm only apologizing to myself not to anybody else um that the beginning of the sort of spiritual Renaissance or the Spiritual Awakening in this country was started probably in the 50s why LSD and then what the 50s or the 60s well the late 50s early 60s okay you're talking about like in the actual historical timeline it was already getting popular yeah in that time and it its build over into the 60s okay Y and then that went and then then the 60s happened then you have all the counterculture stuff right FL children and the protests and free love and all that and then that went and that kept going right because it followed the kind of Vietnam more and then tailed off right and as um you know a child or there's some things I just can't tell talk about in public ever you know but as a as somebody who know knew somebody very well who worked in the spiritual Community as a medium in the 80s it was alive you know and that's in Chico Chicago and this is a progressive area but it's not like uber we're not like California we're not like the Bay Area you know and I feel like that that vibe that began to grow in like we'll just say it in 1960 you know maybe that's a little bit early a little bit late whatever that Vibe then grew and then you had later on the War on Drugs Nixon everything else that's kind of you know dampened it now those who are listening are going to say oh Daniel it sounds like you are um correlating psychedelics and spirit uality and I could say I am correlating those two things I am not they're not it's not causation you know what I'm saying why well because you had the the Chinese Invasion and ethnic cleansing oh yeah I said it suck it if you don't like it of Tibet you know um and so then you had all of those and that was what I don't know what year was at 59 or 50s yeah yeah and so then you had then those teachers came to the US and now you have people who are interested in this because it's a counterculture thing and so then they had all these centers that were set up and and and good for them I mean it helps it help helped and helps lots of people so then you have this kind of newness and people are being drawn to it and that's just part of the culture but then everything has the the shine wears off of everything nothing is new forever and so that kind of cycle then I'd imagine 40 50 years you know 40 years then starts to die off because there's not another influx of of I guess like that kind of support it you mean yeah exactly and so when he said in the a you know the 2000s I was like okay well what was you know what was happening at that time well the we were you know fresh off the kind of like I don't know I felt like I just for me personally and I could be I could be misled by this so I want to hear what you have to think about it or say about it I feel like at that point we were moving more and more towards a digital age the digital age was beginning to build you had the dot stuff in the '90s then the bust but you are people already going online you know and yes that opens up means of communication and different things that you could learn but it's also beginning to kind of like disperse people and so you know people are still Gathering but you understand what I'm saying it's like the the the the ice is beginning to Splinter a little bit right and then that's only grows during the 2000s and then we then we all of a we enter the the the life of cell phon you know and now you have now it's all kind of spread out again and I don't know where we are and I am genuinely curious to where you think we are let me ask you where do you think we are now in in the the Lord's year 2025 in terms of like the status of spirituality in the culture yes yes you know like when we had Robert Thurman on right shout out to previous episode right yeah yes we can call him friend of the show definitely yeah he's a he's a homie show um uh um Thurman's dad and great Buddhist scholar all I could do is flash back to like kind of my experiences because I'm a gen xer right yeah so for me it was like if I remember like around the 90s when I was sort of in that window of time where you're sort of becoming more who you are right sure psychology personally starts personality starts to form you get out of your te and your 20s you're starting to become really kind of who you are then right and I was a searching person I was a seeking person but it was like there was a fair amount of just like vibe in the air of these kinds of things you know so to express an interest in Zen I mean I don't there was this old movie um Before Sunrise had like a young Ethan Hawk in it and this really beautiful French actress Julie dely and like they're talking about all this spiritual [...] you know it's it's a kind of a story where you know two people meet on a train in Europe and they just kind of follow the kind of blossoming of their relationship it's kind of beautiful if you like that kind of thing and I do so I was like watching that and it's very has a kind of like it's uh what was our word for it saposexual there we go yeah demisexual uh there's emotional [...] and there's intellectual [...] and they're bonding and it's just watching them Bond and flirt and I don't know I thought it was really a beautiful movie yeah and um so anyways you know he's talking about Zen [...] you know and I was like though they were about the same age as me at that time and I was like yeah that was kind of like in the air you know and you'd go through and you'd walk into the bookstores that existed back then because there were just more of them there be Zen books and cabala books and you know it was like a very felt like a very electric kind of time for Spiritual stuff you know and if I'm totally honest you know I don't I don't feel that electricity anymore I'm a different age and you know my life has gone on and I have my spiritual practice so I'm doing stuff and in some ways there's accessibility which is mhm kind of great even what we're doing here creates an accessibility but there was more of a crackle I keep kind of trying to make this motion with my fingers yeah a little muda or something but there was a crackle in the air there was something in the air right and I I don't know if I feel that now I think like when I look at like my daughter being 22 so you know the same age raises I'm talking about my stuff back then myself back then you know there's a kind of a vague interest in things you know um it was kind of cute they were doing some tarot cards and so she sent me like a picture of the reading yeah there's stuff that's happening those things are always going on there's always someone yeah some tarrow and you know yeah I don't know I I I don't feel it if I'm wrong I'd like to know yeah but I don't feel it and then that's a question of if that's the case then it's a little bit like what happened right right to change things now Ryan brought came the same thing he thought like really materialism kind of took over okay his take was that it was explosion of this materialistic thinking and it kind of just swept through and maybe people felt a pressure about it again we're slightly different age ranges not huge but a little bit right yeah yeah so I don't know if that speaks to you as someone who have been more from that Millennial space than maybe like people like Ryan and I who a little bit more in the genx space or something right but you know there was sort of a pressure like materialistic pressure on people or something was part of it does that seem true to you so I have I have a kind of a couple Minds on it right one I'm going to go back to the Psychedelic piece right so marijuana is legal in in many states at this point where I definitely have friends who were sent to jail for it you know a long time ago right which sounds strange now I mean it sounded strange then but that was the land the the the law of the land you know um and then you have tons of people talking about their psychedelic their DMT and mushroom experiences you know all over the place right I mean Joe Rogan mentions you know and and I'm not necessarily a fan of his anymore but back in the day for sure when he was high all the time doing his episodes out of the garage and you know whatever like yeah old yeah old Joe Rogan was cool like you know now actual older Joe Rogan is not there's a difference but that's that's the weird story right but so but what happen he's talked about a lot tons of people talked about their psychedelic experience you know you have one I mean he's kind of a nemesis Aaron Rogers you know um but you know he's talked about uh retreats in the dark and his iasa experiences and you know all these these things you know that is public knowledge it's it's kind of out there so you have this part and that to me is you know spiritual adjacent right it's not it is a spiritual practice this um depending on what context it's coming from if it's held within the I don't want to poo poo on anybody's you know views on it but I think it's I think it's correlated you again not positive so I think that is that level is increased right I say one thing about that Daniel before you I thinking about this during the week too I mean I think about our conversations to be you know what we're goingon to be talking about and I just think about the stuff that we care about so I buy the fact that the psychedelics are useful as like door opening things for people I completely buy that right yeah and you know when we did our episodes we did one on psychedelics back in the day and we've done other ones along the way right yeah for talk about this as honestly as we could you know we TR okay like I had you know my LSD experience which was like really important for me it did kind of open up something in me right or it was in the time period where I was opening up so I buy it and I also buy like you and we've had on uh Remy yeah Remy and Ashley yeah for sure Ashley right these are people who are like has become part of their path yes but just as a statistical thing I have to say that a lot of people at this point have done a lot of different drugs and I can't say that that's translated into like correct spiritual Revolution so it's it's a good feature not [...] on anybody's Corn Flakes with it at all I get it right yeah and for me too like so two thumbs up awesome but if I look at it objectively well I hasn't it hasn't opened the gate correct to so anyways well this it's more accepted good that people get to talk about it good that more people can share and experience whatever they want to experience within that but I also to be honest in the sense like it's part of a picture but it you know it's it can't be the whole thing right right so I I yes so that and that raises and we've talked about this before but just to touch on it for just 20 seconds here that that raises the question of uh incremental change versus fundamental change and you need both in order to have fundamental change you do kind of need the incremental change and the incremental change is not sexy it's not sexy yeah you know but the psychedelics give the opportunity for a fundamental change in a very short time however that's rare when you could just hit that switch and now you're different it's more common to build and then at some point when you're not paying attention you have that moment of Satori you have this moment of opening like when uh Neo th was on and he said he was asking this question what is a body what are cells what are cells what is a body boom boom back and forth and then he's sitting down and he's meditating and he's watching the incense the incense stick turn into smoke and where does a smoke start and the incense sticks stop wherever that is that's the cells and that's the body and that was his moment you know that was his his his opening moment and so I yeah so we're so we're on the same page so that that's incremental fundamental change so we're on the same page in terms of the the Psychedelic po portion I guess what we have to do then is we probably interrupt your flow but like I can get that the psychedelics can blow your doors open like transformative I'm I'm I'm not denying that at all yeah right okay yeah yeah yeah yeah so then we have two questions really that are to My Mind One what is spirituality and two what is um what is what is what would you consider a pre what would you consider an acceptable presence or not an acceptable presence but a presence that would uh correlate or be relative to a previous time when you felt like it had a a larger uh identity does that make sense yeah so I mean like kind of huge questions I guess what spiritual let's maybe come back to that one if I get what you're kind kind of talking about in the second one it's kind of like the way I'm hearing that and if I'm wrong correct me but it's kind of like how do I get the gauges of how this feels different now from before yes what I can say and this is weird to think about but you could go into a place like a bookstore and they would have books about Zen like everywhere like in the [...] front you know and it would all be front loaded and it's a strange thing to think about that now because if you go into places where these materials may or may not be accessible it's usually like stuffed in the back and self-help and there's like under self-help and there's like a shelf on the hair yeah know so I I I mean I have that it's kind of a gauge in my mind it's just one thing but you know there was some kind of energy around this for whatever the reasons was and I don't want to be also the dude saying back when I was younger you know get off my lawn that's like obviously crap you know so I'm not trying to say that I'm more like looking at as someone who cares a lot about this sure part of life I mean if it is different then like what happened you know to make it for people we all need it right yeah but what made it if it's like more on the back shelves now like what happened right and just like you know what are the reasons why you know so I the what is spirituality thing maybe I'll play with this a little bit more and then maybe we try to do something with that sure but like as far as like factors that might have been around it part of it was came up was materialism you know okay and part of it was whether or not I brought this up with Bob Thurman back in the day too whether or not it was sort of like new atheism happened was there there was explosion that seemed to come out of nowhere like in the ODS if you can flash back to that time just depends how old you are listening to this and yeah space was but there was this whole explosion of like even like a kind of a philosophy of like anti-spiritual that appeared yeah I mean that's growing that's been growing since then yeah and it was this was sort of a thing that like popped out yeah and I remember thinking you know someone who was interested in Zen and these spiritual traditions and like my life was transformed by these things yeah wasn't just like oh it's a cool thing to think about like it took my life which was you know there were things I was wrestling with and struggling with and it just transformed me it transformed my whole existence so yeah part of what we're do talking about here is like um you know other people getting the chance to have those same experiences yeah shit's buried on the back shelf you just don't get the chance to like get that stuff right I mean I bought like Zen M beginners mind in the [...] train station it was just on the Shelf you know like that [...] I it's not happening you know so I feel like a kind of a a compassion and empathy for people who would need this where it's like again like hidden away and I don't know what happened with that that there was this sort of this again this explosion of this s of sort of like it was kind of going after the big three religions right so they were kind of going after them probably in the United States in the aftermath of 911 right that had a big impact on people because people got freaked out about Islam right y for sure lost their [...] yeah out of that thing grew this very strange movement of like that was sort of like anti-spiritual yeah and we talk about biological stuff Ryan and I were mentioning this too I mean it's fine we did the whole thing on the default mode Network correct back in the day we'll talk about Neuroscience we'll talk about things that are important for understanding ourselves and ways to grow and progress yes so we're not anti that but there was this whole thing where it was it was just against that and it was really hardcore right yeah yeah and there's few helding beliefs that were you know not like your absolute scientific materialist thing you were some kind of woohoo kind of flaky person right yeah and so I don't know if that was a factor too but I I think in that time it like something weird happened and all the cool spiritual stuff that might have been alternative spiritualities got kind of whatever anyways I'm sorry to yeah no no I mean I think you're right I mean and just from like a large cultural perspective that was the first time since probably the Vietnam war that people felt on the whole very against I think something you know then they're like oh we're being lied to Iraq has nothing to do with this and then people saw that there was a a concerted effort by the Pentagon and others to put people on on TV and say oh they have this they have that we have to go in and people are like no this is [...] that's not true and then after 911 you had all the conspiracy theories and then of course blaming religion and you know so like I think think culturally there was a lot of push back you know to what was being told at that time and and so that makes that makes sense and there's not as much you know there's a lot there was a lot more information as the once the internet opened uh really and the internet was open at that point right because you you know there was YouTube and there was everything so you can kind of people were able to kind of start doing their own things and it of course it opens opportunities for people to learn different things they would not have been able to expose to previously but then it also gives you know it's a it's a wider net and with you know Nets can catch things but there's also holes that you could slip through and you know become a conspiracy person if if that you know is your fancy and that's not necessarily going to bring you back towards you know what we consider the Divine but you know going back to episodes that we have done I think what it was called what even is spirituality we probably did that maybe a month or two ago you know and we talked about what you know what is you know spirituality so but that's the second question the question that I asked earlier that you know I want to give M to is what what do you know what do I think about today is you know what is this the question we asked in the beginning what is the status of spirituality in our current culture and I would say it's probably not as strong as it once was in you know 60s 7s 80s even you know uh and I think part of that is is exactly what you had brought up and what we had just talked about was the influence probably in like the late 90s and 2000s from the cultural stuff the internet things all of the the kind of spreading out of society a little bit more you know if we want to use the uh right-wing term globalization that's the uh you know Alex Jones term the globalist you know um so there was there was this five years it's the first time I've heard you do of Alex Jones well you know bust out start selling some supplements the mob you know yeah okay can I like do one followup I don't want to kill your flow on it but it's interesting to me like so within your time like if you look at like 2000 to now in the context of your life what do you think the up and down has been of interest in these spiritual topics do you feel like it's kind of changed you know because we're talking about a two decade window or something right yeah I I can't really give a great answer Eric because I've been in it pretty much since like 2006 I've been that's what I I look for that so when I go in a bookstore I've already I only know the self-help section because that's the only place where they have books that I want to read you know I'm like wow what a big waste to store here I just want this one little section you know what I'm saying and so then I just choose from what they have there I don't know what it's like before that so I don't have that frame of reference but what I can say is that what is present online from my perspect again from the way that the algorithm is is grown and showing me things is that there is I believe there is a lot more like you know we can call it quote unquote spiritual practitioners and I don't mean that and I don't mean that in like a pajora of sense by any stretch of the means I just mean it's a vast large number of people larger number of people than it was previously right so there's plenty of people who do raiki and Tarot cards reading and akashic records and singing bulls and sound healers and you know what ever all these different types of things there's a lot more of this and again how quote unquote spirit I don't know why I keep doing that but how spiritual is this you know would you say I'm not sure but those people definitely take it as as their spiritual practice that's how they connect with Source that's how they connect with their Divine uh methods of inspiration you know what I'm saying so I can't it's maybe not formalized in a in a tradition that you can say goes back how many generations or they have these particular steps or whatever like how Buddhism has however this is their that's their perview of of reality and their purview of spirituality and so and I could say there's a lot more of these people now than before you know that are offering their services to the world so I can say that that is that is an increase um and now the other question is like is it in the culture no and and we'll go back to the episode that we did what even is spirituality but it's never been it never really has been that popular in the cult it's not it's not a cultural thing so while you and I are here and hearkening back to our conversation that we had before we started recording today because you know news flash we talk before we record not that anybody cares but I'm just telling you um this is a labor of love for us so like comment subscribe share our work you know hit that uh hit the email and send us a message show us some love we definitely appreciate it Jin and Tantra at gmail.com or on Instagram you know what I'm saying uh Jin and Tantra podcast we try to do our thing a little bit um this is what we do and we find this to be immensely beneficial in in in our life and therefore it would make sense to us and we could be wrong and and we're probably biased that it should make uh should have value for other people because it's not it's not specific to anyone a my the message that we have on here is not pro Republican it's not pro Democrat it's Pro Union and not teachers union or labor union it's Pro Union of the separation of those two sides because ultimately that people want pretty much the same things so we're what we're trying to do is help people work together within the various aspects of themselves and weave that together to form a synthetic person and then you go larger to form a synthetic family to form a synthetic Community to form a synthetic Society not one that's homogeneous where everybody has the same ideas no that's not possible but at least you can agree on like human decency you know and but you have to start by being a decent human in the first place and so to me as we sort of like transition here in the last few minutes of our conversation that is spirituality in my in in my mind you know is is you know kind of like I don't want to say perfecting yourself because that I don't want I don't want perfectionism to be an uh an issue in someone's mind but you are you're polish it's an act of polishing who you are you know on a regular basis while simultaneously accepting you for all the all the bumps and bruises and faults and flaws and Perfections and be beautiful parts and and artistic creativity and all the things that are that are right with us as well as all the things that are wrong with us that's you and then also saying yeah but I can you know I can work on that [...] too you know like there's nothing wrong with that like I'm awesome and I'm [...] up and I'm still going to work on it because that's my goal and that goal is not going to wax and Wayne based on the day actually I accelerate knowing that I have less time here you know to me this is the the the kind of spiritual existence that that I espouse that we espouse if I can say and this is kind of how I this is kind of how I see it well after something like that this might seem like a little bit of like a a doubling back or something because you give beautiful longer version of uh your vision right okay but I wonder part of what we hit on was the idea like things go up and down within a culture yeah at different times and you kind of brought that up in the very beginning and I thought about this question you know we're in the midst of like chipping away at our little book and it's something that I include in the intro which is that we started this thing like during the pandemic yes right and that's another one of these things like a 911 yeah shook people's [...] up right and people really you know that was a you know like a you know it's one of those things you're never going to forget you know correct for any of us and I I there was kind of a Feeling Again maybe a little bit there too and I'm just thinking of individual people I know whose life stories are flashing through my mind yeah people began to feel like shaken by that there was a lot of death yes right it was scary there was a lot of illness it wasn't obvious going to go and it led to a lot of like existential inquiry M and there was that window of time where people got a little shaken and you know sometimes that can be good for Spiritual stuff right you get a little shaking and it like uh it forces you oh I ding the the camera it forces you to sort of think about these things right yeah and you know so maybe that was a little bit where there was a weird kind of crackling energy around that time yeah for a lot of people you know remember back like everyone was going to quit their jobs and and you know uh go find themselves yeah right there was that didn't happen so you there is a rhythm to that I suppose and then things like we looking at where we're at now a lot of the stuff kind of went back to a bizarre kind of status quo yes right yeah and people kind of like ricocheted back I suppose to something much more conservative I guess right oh yeah because we're living in this kind of like what people are trying to describe as this conservative Renaissance or something oh oh boy it's still only like half the people or less or less who care about this right decided to support it uhuh but like you know it's it's a funny Rhythm then if you're talking about a rhythm yeah I guess it's like a question of if we get to the individual level of this you know like if you can go through a window of time like that in your life can you like hold on to that yeah not lose that feeling you know that you can kind of like get a little bit shaken up and get questioning and then as the world starts to go back more to like a status quo well then you don't lose it you like you hold on to it right and that might be what's difficult on some level when you start talking about these rhythms up and down it's kind of the classic story of the Baby Boomers who become like the reaganite people later on you know I know how true that story is but you know you it's hard to hold on to that right and part of is like the ability to hold on so you don't just sort of like what is it you become a like you get a little bit interested for a little bit you kind of diletant around a little bit and then things fade away for you yeah because you lose that sense of like yeah that shot that you had when you know the truth of that the the earnestness and the urgency hit you it kind of like Fades away right and maybe that happens in the cultural Rhythm too yeah it's a resiliency yeah for me like in the spirituality thing all I can kind of say is like I think it's a composite of like multiple ways that you try to understand yourself understand the world around you and then develop yourself forward and I guess the vision that I have for this is that we're bringing in all these different tools for people that are ones of our own experience so I try to be as personal as possible with these things so for me it probably started with like I had my own like stuff growing up but it was like physics was was Consciousness expanding for me yes Psychology was Consciousness expanding for me did some acid that was Consciousness expanding for yeah yeah yeah right got oh the Zen shit's cool that expanded my Consciousness you know that got a little bit more into a tradition that had more Theory and trajectory to it of how to develop a person right but the psychology I like too was the one that was very transformative right it had to do with like really finding out who you are and kind of like one of the words we love authenticity yeah so that happened and then it was sort of this thing of like going to the the the the accomplishments of human beings who are trying to explore those same questions yes what's the nature of the universe what's the nature of a person is there a soul what's the nature of that Soul or Spirit you know how can you develop it if it exists you know yeah you know it was sort of those kinds of things and that's sort of I guess what I think of spirituality as being and then realizing you're not the only people who have done this that's what I was just gonna say before you have like asked these same questions we could all be part of this dialogue yep and then we could get to share it with new people who come along you know like that's that's the that's the that's the thing right there man is like when you find yourself having questions that other people have asked previous to you and you can look at the results of their qu of their you know questioning and answering it can help you with your own questioning that's really the benefit of being in in a in a in a in a sa in a community right in in because that's contemporary and probably other people in your community are asking similar questions but then that's also the benefit in being in a in in a tradition I'm not saying which tradition I'm saying a tradition because others have asked the same if not similar questions before you and you can look at the results of what they're research has shown and then use that to further your own inquiry you know but I think ultimately what is the Baseline of it all it's the questioning you know I love the word research in that too because it implies that there's like stuff you can research yeah did like this gesture with my hands when you're were talking that way because it's so beautiful I feel the same way that's do this thing together yeah yeah you know like we're part of a I guess you could use the word lineage sure yeah part of a linage of people who are trying to ask these questions and then I think what we're trying to do when we were going to record this you said we're going to be meta in this episode yeah for sure so you know in doing this it's like well we can learn something from like attachment Theory which is what we were supposed to be recording and we didn't but you know like attachment Theory you can learn something from you know uh tantric Buddhist descriptions of how a person develops you know spiritually you can learn something from like the vision of the kabalists which we haven't done yet even on this podcast but we'll be done some point right their vision of how the cosos works you can learn something from the dsts and you can learn something from even their medicine how they build things yeah I think that's the idea now is that dead I don't know you know but anyways we're trying to do it we are trying to do it we're we know anding CPR yes mouth to mouth mouth to mouth to the uh spirituality in the culture Yama mouth to mouth that's right I don't know it's one of these things where I you know and of course you know we're in like kind of rare fight spaces where we meet people who do have passions around this too we're lucky you know but uh uh I guess trying to get the message out to even more folks yeah yeah yeah well Eric I think it's a good place to call it um yeah that seems about like what we wanted to talk about yeah that's exactly think we got somewhere yeah we did we made it we made it we got there audience you know we said it numerous times but thank you so much for listening uh you know we love to hear what people think so leave a comment in the in the section where ever you're listening to or uh feel free to hit us up ginand Tantra gmail.com or you know slideing our DMS at the gin and Tantra podcast I mean you know we get some responses from people sometimes and other times we don't but I'm genuinely curious I'm not going to put up a poll because those polls don't ever give enough we don't have enough responses to get a percentage as to what people think but if if you find this question you know is is spirituality dead or what is the status of spirituality in our current culture culture um if this is something that you have thought about or this has been thought-provoking for you please feel free to hit us up I'm genuinely curious as to what you know what people think I know our audience is going to lean towards this um so you know please feel free to share your thoughts and if uh you want us to cover more of this or something else then you know we will be happy to do so as we've done in the past we definitely take suggestions and um you know answer questions or whatever so you know please feel free to uh you know show us some love and for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace