[Music] two thumbs up hey fellow G and teers those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist Daniel gave me the two thumbs up that's right minor distraction technique that did not throw it throw me it's all about the professionalism that Contra not um all right so we want to do like follow up on what we were doing we've been doing these episodes on the Book of Job if you've been following long Carl Yung his answer to job and Daniel brought up at the last at the end of the last episode this idea of doing something that was more experience- driven based on the idea of people saying like well you know do things that are experience driven and I don't know what that totally meant to you uh I know if you want to say something about that D you want to comment no I don't I I remember it but I don't remember what at the moment like what you the signific was well this is like our relationship with one another Daniel says this and I took it to heart and he's I don't remember saying it why did I why did I you know so I okay we both did our Impressions on this no no I remember I remember now I remember now okay yeah all right okay you want to share no no just no okay all right this is a very professional podcast yes very okay when you were saying it I was like well I don't know totally what that would mean exactly in the sense that I want to say one thing real quick about this first before we get into the full meat of this but because I see everything we do is kind of like an analytic meditation yeah and uh I had never come across that Concept in societ still until I started doing things in the Tibetan Buddhist World obviously one of our home bases for this we have a Zen base out there we have a dawis base we have cabalistic base sufy base so on but definitely a Tibetan tantric base and uh they use this idea of analytic meditation which is where you meditate on ideas and you think of things that you think are challenging and thoughtful and you contemplate them so in that sense I I see everything we're doing has a practicality to it in the sense that it's like one long analytic meditation that make sense to you yeah completely I mean it's a it's a not an infinitely long because we're not going to be around for Infinity but at least we'll come back again and we'll find each other and we'll start this [...] back up again yeah but for the length of for the length of this podcast it is you know a consecutive uh practice of an an analytic meditation for sure and and I think many things are that way but the way in which we're you're you're bringing it up now which is what we do right is to consciously approach things and so yes it's conversation it's education it's some humor it's some observations you know some experience some authenticity some creativity all of these kind of things that are naturally occurring from within us based on our education and and clinical work and whatever but when you me when you when you give it the the language that that helps to connect what you're doing on a mundane level to things that you're doing simultaneously on a spiritual level that's the Tantra that's Jin and Tantra right Jin is in like Spirits as in uh you know things that we do to alter our Consciousness right that's what alcohol does and then the Tantra is the weaving of of this kind of like altered state with the conscious State the you know the weaving of abstract thought to kind of rational thought and so as we are having these conversations over the last three years you know recorded I mean these are conversations that you and I have had for the last 10 years really that we bring it to the Forefront of people's minds to understand that it is not yes it is the musings of of of two guys in the Chicago land area with you know similar but different experiences but it is a version of living meditation you know when people talk about taking their practice off the the cushion or the yoga mat you know for people who practice yoga uh for me when I say that to people or when I hear it being said the way I interpret it is that like you should be living the way living and approaching that the way that you do things with an air of mindfulness you know with an air of how is this moving with the flow of my life you know and the things that I find as difficult or well maybe we'll to say are obstacles or tough sticking points can I approach them in such a way that I can learn from them and I think the the best way to do that is to think of things in in a meditative practice and meaning you're open to interpretations that are not directly coming from you you know you let yourself be open to that I like this idea of will the the analytic meditation be where you like analytic meditation being where you have like ideas that you're exposed to and you contemplate in Quiet Moments I like that idea which I think is what we're doing I also really like to turn a phrase for like a living meditation because I think about that a lot and I feel like your life should be uh integrated with that that meditative experience yes that your life is um part of the part of the meditative experience too and it's part of the teaching experience of how you live your life so yeah I like the idea of living meditation I think I'm gonna start using that I like it analytic meditation is in your Quiet Moments but I think when people think about meditation they think you count your breath or you focus on some particular thing but in this Tibetan world you can do this analytic meditation which is you contemplate certain ideas yeah which is I think what we're trying to do here but then also the idea that your meditation your life should match your meditation it should go together it should be a reflection yes right they sometimes talk about that idea of Union and there's gonna be a lot of stuff about Union here um but this idea that there should be a union of your experience when you're in the meditative stage or when you're in those private moments right and your actual life they should unify it's funny on the Carl Young thing I didn't have this in the notes or anything for this now but when he was young he talked about this experience of having like two different people and one seemed to be the person he was when he was out in his life and the other person seemed to be the one that had in his private moments and I think if you have had this experience yourself it's a very it's a very interesting and Powerful one you know and to like hang that observation out there because I definitely have had that that feeling like there's a me that's out in the world at times and then there's the me that's my own private self my more meditative and private and self-reflective moments and they may not match correct and that doesn't feel good and I guess that's the idea of living meditation that your life should reflect those private moments and back and forth it shouldn't be like to this big divorce I don't think that's good um I did certainly didn't feel good to me I should say it that way yeah right yeah so yeah the living meditation I like that phrase I'm into it and and if we can pay off something from the last episode when we were kind of talking about Sophia I on Sophia here though so it's gonna be popping popping up a bunch yeah yeah okay well just before we go in before we go into it I think there was we I wanted to talk about that and that was why you know I know we're going to talk about which is why I didn't want to talk about it earlier because I know we're going there um we had I had thought about the question I asked was like well how do we embody this in in in a in a practice or how does this you know fit for us and just you know probably as a as a prude to what's coming but in the moment what what is definitely present for me right now is that like the high lighting of those two aspects of life right building on this idea of a living meditation and the sort of analytic or reflective state that when you're sitting for most people and this is this is a broad generalization so understand that there's much Nuance I know you know this Eric but I'm talking to the audience you know what I'm saying yeah yeah no we all like we all it's got good it's good that we all hear it yeah like in that reflective kind of open state of receptivity whether it be analytic or reflection or quiet whatever it is that you're doing this can be View at least the way that I think is that we're attempting to kind of quell the the sort of monkey mind the the temporary mind so that your ability to be one with a deeper wisdom is part of this like femin we call it a feminine practice it doesn't mean feminine is like sexuality feminine but I want to reference the idea of like Sophia as wisdom that you are you're are quelling the kind of like uh chitter chatter so that you can tap into that deeper level of wisdom that's all that's kind of always there and pervasive in in my mind and then that is just opposed to then like the Living Part which is a little bit more of action a little bit more process driven a little bit more of male you know masculine in this way if you go to like standard Chinese definitions it doesn't have to be that way M you don't have to think of masculine and feminine at all if that doesn't resonate with you right yeah no masculine is one way if you went to India Shiva is The Quiet One shaki is the active one you know what I mean so it doesn't have to be masculine or femin and you can see you can let that sit however that sits with each individual person you know I mean so anyone listening you can kind of take that however you want it doesn't have to be one way or the other no totally not langage so then we could say then we could say that one is a is a wisdom based practice and one is an action-based practice you know what I'm saying I hadn't really thought about but back in my my zen days they made a huge deal about this which maybe is where that started to really kick with me you know that you would do things that were the sitting Zen meditation but then you go and you do the active things some of that was like special sword forms that were very martial arts things that honestly were based on the five phases the energies of Chinese medicine and there was a SW part of the sword form for each of the five phases which was pretty cool um so that was like doing things in movement like doing taichi doing has a movement aspect to it and then you know you do other things that were like keeping this going as you were doing activities yeah yeah that's it that's the idea that's that's the idea now we're getting to the point of the living meditation when we get to it we'll probably be like well then how do you con struct your own life yes and I think the thing that I keep going back to and you know it is what it is but you know I think challenging the way of life that you're given and building a life that suits what you think has spiritual meaning and integrity and authenticity for you that's the thing it's going to keep coming back so it's gonna come back an interesting way when we do this stuff that Yung did so yeah all right cool so we got context so um I decided to look like what Yung did more specifically and there are two big ideas and and the nice little phrases for them too so one is the idea that Yung had what's called active imagination and the other is what he calls the Transcendent function so we'll kind of go through them and this will give maybe the concrete idea of someone who wanted to have a specific kind of you know like what would you do concretely if you wanted to kind of do this kind of inner journeying this kind of maybe ultimately connecting to Sophia if that's a goal right I want to give a little bit of credit to the basis from Blondie Gary lochman because he gives some he uses these phrases he points this out in his book called Yung the Mystic oops here he is Yung the Mystic um so I went to this one to just see how he commented on these two ideas so I'm giving credit where credit is due it's the old uh old 70s group Blondie um once I had love and it was a gas soon found out be a pain in the ass Heart of Glass Blondie but anyways you know he com on this and he's it's a funny he's an interesting cat I don't know maybe reach out to him at some point and get him on the show that might be kind of fun you know we meaning to do more of that kind of thing but anyways just to give him his props so active imagination seems like the first one to cover um one of the interesting things that he points out which is the truth of Jung's life overall is that he kept these things pretty secret yeah he started working on these ideas of active imagination like in the 19 1917 1918 1915 he was was working these ideas or what it meant to do these inner journeying experiences he got very deep into it after his break with Freud and he was in kind of a personal crisis because he was so connected to Freud and this whole community of people around Freud and there's a whole drama around that but when they actually did kind of part ways um you know he was in a point of Crisis and uh this is sort of what he did is sort of his own inner psychology and this point of Crisis and he does say that this is something interesting that you can do this during times of Crisis and distress it's a natural thing to do uh as we go through we'll kind of talk more about that I guess but it's interesting that he kept it secret for so long apparently he didn't he showed it to other people who were in sort of his close set of circles of people who were his confidants and people who were you know intellectual peers and people he shared things with that were more of that type but he didn't like actively talk about this very much and I can't remember the years but it might have taken him decades before he even started using these phrases so there a weird question as to why and I just wanted to talk briefly about the why and then get your thoughts on this because I was curious what your reaction would be yeah on the one hand he was afraid that it would look non-scientific so he was afraid of that you know and maybe because he was competing with other psychologists who were kind of putting on the mantle of scient scientificness that uh you know he didn't want to look non-scientific by comparison or something he seems to very worried about that the other part was whether or not people would just thought he was he was he was crazy to say you do these inner journeying and find these inner within yourself we're going talk about this more in detail you thought well people just think of me like I'm a crazy person just talking to parts of my own mind and I'm just deluded or hallucinatory or something and so he was really afraid of those critiques and I think there's reason for that because later on people throw this [...] at him he was just a crazy person right but it really goes to show I thought it would be interesting to bring up and hear your response down because it really shows what people's attitudes are towards these things and he was afraid of it and probably to some percent rightfully one some percentage right y so because you know he was just afraid of that judgmentalness about what he was doing that people just find him crazy what do you think about that yeah I mean I think I think it's probably right the ideas that were growing during that period really kind of flowered at least in the US you know and the movement of the 60s and and 7 early 70s you know takes decades really yeah and it it took a long time for people to be open enough to express how they felt in a public setting it was probably safe to do so previously like with you know they probably could have did it in the 50s or probably you know what I'm saying but like Society just didn't it didn't seem like that was appropriate you know what I'm saying and people still felt fear around being themselves and we see this now you know with you know movements in the LGBT community or you know all the other AC you know um letters are part of that you know no offense to anybody I'm just you know whatever I know what I know you know what I'm saying um and so people are expressing themselves more now which is why I'm I I all not always but regularly I I I do say like it we're lucky that we get to express opinions it wasn't that long ago you know and even in other countries like in Russia you know you couldn't Express I mean even now really but before you know they were looking for people who were not communists you know who were against the and they would jail you you know family members would snitch out on other family members because they'd be fearful that the neighbor would know that the family member knew that they weren't telling on their brother or sister or something like that so the fact that like we get to do this now is a real gift and and in relation to to Carl Young even though he was a you know kind of a I don't know if he was an industry leader you know at the time person he was rich independently wealthy you know through marriage like marriage person he was like uh you know a famous psychologist before any of this stuff came up so I mean he was like apparently internationally like he was just as like well known as Freud in the beginning through his own work but he felt the insecurity of like the idea of like okay people will dismiss what I'm doing is kind of non-scientific and wacky right right you know like you do shamanistic things I mean there's still the point where people might go well that's just wacky you said you had a vision like it's just some [...] your mind made up it I and this is unfortunately why I don't often use well I mean it takes energy so first but second of all I don't often use it and when I have before the people who come even though they want that's what they want they want an experience you know they want to see something and the couple times that they ask for it they get it and they have no idea what to do with it there's no frame of reference they're like what that's interesting because that's his third point he says like there's kind of three ideas that Yung was concerned about one was I'll be judge for being non scientific by other people who are trying to be biological qu I'll be judges being kind of crazy like people think I have like delusions and you know I'm mentally unstable or wacky and then the last point was that these things can be challenging and and I think I wanted to like do the technique and then return back to the idea if you're cool with that Daniel yeah let's do it but like the challenging part is kind of interesting because it could be challenging in like different kinds of ways yeah let's do that let's do it okay okay cool so okay so here's what he was doing and it makes sense it's a kind of an inner Journey though he didn't use that exact phrase no phrase more like active imagination so the idea goes sorry my voice has being a little funky his idea is that you enter into kind of a Ry it's similar to maybe like a hypnogogia where you kind of like are falling asleep and your mind starts to daydream around those kinds of states right yeah you get you relax you you know you you you're in a relaxed you're in a relaxed Place interesting in like the Tibetan Buddhist world world because um you pay so much attention to how you fall asleep and it's like a weird process because if you concentrate too hard canot sleep can't fall asleep no and it's a little hard sometimes with these meditations they're very difficult they're probably the hardest meditations I've ever had to do in my whole life and that that probably don't do them as good well as I should um but you know if you concentrate too hard it's just hard to fall asleep um and so you know you have to let your mind go to where it starts to revery a little bit it starts kind of go around and like see stuff you know like it starts to produce images it starts to do stuff you can pay attention if you start to fall asleep your mind will do this right all of a sudden you're like you realize like you're flying over a field and there's some water and this and that you'll start seeing [...] it's very cool and you have to let your mind do it and if you don't do that you might not fall asleep yes I can remember being young and kind of realizing that and I would think about the girls in the class that I liked I was like 12 years old or something that'll keep you up I'd be thinking in ring and then I might fall asleep I was a little bit young I wasn't G to get like a fullon you know retile experiences rectile experiences yeah because I was still too young I'm still in a an innocent romanticist State but anyways yeah you're right otherwise it would be hard to fall asleep literally yes uhuh sorry it's really funny because I have an 11-year-old and uh this would mortify him but you know does happen now and he's like oh my God and I'm like yeah don't worry about it it's totally fine you're like it's fine dude you don't you you w believe where this is gonna go next yeah it's gonna ruin your life and make it great so this is gonna be quite a talk about inner Journey yeah this is gonna be a journey um okay so for example for young but here here's where you're trying to be more proactive about it I guess right so for him he might imagine like entering into a cave I think he did that some of the time right entering into some space some special space and then the big thing is from his point is that you want to try to find the figures who encounter you inside right you you know if you go into these spaces what you might start to find happening is that you'll you'll meet people right who are occupying the space now again this gets to the idea of the archetypes right the real famous yian thing about these primary primordial ideas within the human mind mother father masculine feminine tricksters and shadows and all these different Yi archetype figures but he was more sort of having this experiential thing where I'll just go into the space and I I won't necessarily think I'm going to meet anyone in particular but let me see who I meet right figures are that I like I end up kind of running into and as you do this then he says especially what you want to do is you want to ask questions and you want to start engaging in a dialogue with whoever the people are that you meet and and especially when I ask questions and things that you might not know the answer to not in the sense of like uh you know how many uh how many pounds are in a ton not those kind of answers but answers to things like within the context of your life things that you're uncertain of things that you want clarification of and then you'll start to talk and probably these figures will start talking back to you which raises a kind of interesting question are you dialoguing with yourself for parts of yourself are you dialoguing with things that are outside and bigger than yourself on some level that's kind of a yian question to ask and maybe we'll continue to explore that as we go but worthwhile thinking about but the other thing I thought that was really interesting Daniel is there was a whole thing about um it's similar when you go and you ask yourself questions about your own life when you talk with yourself Blondie basis makes this point we do things like this we go and we say hey what do we think about this and then we answer ourselves so we do something like this you know but I think what's interesting about that he sort of makes this point not in these exact words but the thing that struck me about this is that when you're doing that a lot of times in your more mundane everyday life situations you're not making something special happen a lot of times what you're probably talking to is your own like default mode network if you want to go back for flashbacks for previous episodes yeah know the part of the brain that just CHS along stupidly saying [...] throughout the course of your day probably making you miserable right default mode Network or the existential Guardian operating system if you want to go that route right this uh you know that's one of Daniel's phrases for this we had episodes on that concept you know one of Daniel's turns of phrases so you know a lot of times that's something where you just it's just blah blah blah yeah but this you're trying to get into something deeper some deeper part of your own Consciousness or your own psyche which is interesting right that you try to do this it's a it's a it's a deeper kind of thing right they also drew the difference here then between this and something like free association which is a psychological technique where you just let your mind kind of go wherever it goes which is also cool but I think the point about that is a lot of that will just end up biding back a lot of blah blah blah at you it'll end up being a lot of default mode Network stuff you're you know the more mundane parts of your personality right not necessarily the deeper parts of who you are the Buddhist Contra on that is something like you'll get a lot of mundane conceptions and mundane appearances so I think the thing in the union world is you have to get someplace outside of that so you get to someplace deeper does that make sense what I'm saying yeah because interacting with your own mind produces the results you would expect a lot of it's interacting with parts of yourself that are kind of mundane yeah I mean it's talking talking to a mirror you would expect that you would get an answer that you would give you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah if you were to tell somebody that hey I had a conversation with myself and this is what I came up with if that person was being honest they would say yeah that sounds just like you which is which is what's supposed to happen because you're you're talking to yourself but you know going back to that um the aspect of connecting with wisdom in a in a medit in a seated meditation in a in a place of reflection that was my point is that when you can when you can quiet the chatter yeah yeah that's really you have to like and but you look at it like the course of like what struck me about this in the course of most people's lives and most people's decision making most people went under duress and they're trying to make major decisions in their life and so on they're just talking to themselves yeah which means they're probably talking to relatively mundane parts of themselves correct they're just blah blah blah back the things that they would probably naturally say anyways and your ability to find deep states of reflection during turbulent periods will be probably hampered by your lack of practice and thereby in those moments more difficult for you to connect to the parts of you that are probably actually wanting to speak but because you haven't built those muscles or you haven't you know deepened those group Roes or those habits or disciplines are not set in your life it's very difficult to get out to the middle of the ocean when everything is very turbulent near the shoree if you never learned to swim y yep and you're wearing uh you know anchors anchors on your feet for for shoes yeah yeah there was like a a back in the day and it was like a bad moment I don't think I handled it perfectly but I had a student who was having trouble energetically while giving an acupuncture treatment he came out feeling really affected by whatever had happened happened and he was like can you give me a meditation now to fix this and I was like I mean I can give you something but you haven't built it up right be able to do it so you're probably not gonna be able to do this in the moment when you need to kind of looked at me I was being an [...] and maybe I was you know uh I wasn't trying to be I was just like oh man you know it's tough because I could describe this to you but will you be able to do this now probably not you know because you're going to be more you have to build those the momentum of those things up right yeah but there's always beginner's luck yeah yeah I wasn't like not g to tell him like no no no you didn't do it before so you're [Laughter] screwed tough love Johnny Eric Eric the mentor that's foke up Johnny yeah you'll be fine Club thing yeah top it up here drink water yeah tie your shoes and clean your room and pull your [...] together no oh Jordan Peterson e Jordan Peterson wisdom yeah exactly yeah um anyway so it's kind of an interesting thing right so the argument goes that instead of like just seeing even maybe necess necessarily parts of yourself though this is a huge question you can call it the collective unconscious or and it's interesting because sometimes this will get called The Objective psyche meaning things that are kind of bigger than you you're seeing not just like a reflection of your own personality but things that are a little bit more Transcendent of your mundane personality are they you are they not you kind of a tough question we'll kind of explore it as we go right but in any case you know that's the idea and it's an interesting turn of phrase to call that the objective psyche meaning it's not your subjective personhood not what you would normally identify as you it's something else that you're seeing into that some level feels separate from you which at the very least mean it's means it's separate from your default mode Network correct or something like that right yeah now the point is that this happens in dreams this can happen in um painting writing sculpture dance creative activities but in this method that Yung is trying to like uh trying to figure out here and eventually share the ideas that trying to do this in a more direct way again not letting the mind just wander because that'll be free association and as is pointed out by the basis Blondie guy will probably just trigger your own issues and complexes and that's what you'll be listening to you'll be listening to them and they'll be talking to you so you have to get out of that which I think is a great observation there has to be something like that where you're just not listening to your own issues otherwise you're really like that you know that's that's that's an astute observation I think that's a profound observation if you just kind of let okay let me follow my mind and see it'll just be your own [...] probably your own issues your own fears your own limitations your own preconceived ideas and so on that's what your mind will produce that's the false mode default mode Network right that's what it's going to do so he says like you know within this stuffff you have to find these more deeper parts inside you and then kind of catch on to them when you find them which I think is another good observation right it's a kind of a self-reflection that's more energetically driven to find those things and then you connect to them and then you enter into the dialogue with them that's the idea and you know then Yung says if it's a speaking figure at all then you should talk with it right and then that figure will start to talk back and I'll give some examples of like yung's own experiences with this as we go but but that's the idea it uh is burning in my mind right now I don't know where I learned this or if I learned this but this is related to this directly and the challenge was presented to me to look in the mirror without judgment look in the mirror without any without any Judgment at all without any Di at all just to see yourself as somebody else would as if you were a complete stranger on the street walking by and it would seem to me that this is a internal kind of a thing as well like as as you're going through this kind of active imagination to be able [Music] to remove the story from the experience you know and to be able to connect to the actual part there that is that is there to be connected with that that is not attached to the threads that we place on things in order to make them fit neatly into a story so that it doesn't roll around in our mind or our hearts for longer than we would prefer it to you know as a as a method of Defense you know or as a method of integration or as a method of dismissal you know I get the parallelism the parallelism is to kind of just sit there and not let all the mundane conceptions and appearances to use the Buddhist tantric phrase M dominate because it's certainly possible when you look at yourself all the same stuff will be said over and over again just by your mind in some reactive way right so I get the parallelism yep be able to step back and like um skirt that somehow transcend that work around it whatever the Right directionality image is for that to get you have to get go through it and for some people actually there's me I mean this is like you know we're touching a little bit on Chinese medicine but the the methods to which that people can do this are probably going to vary person to person and probably a little bit by their Elemental type um so some people will will have to like let it we'll have to find a way to release it to let it go because they are they're holding on to we call it previous conditioning or something else like this I think that's gonna be across the board though I mean I think that you have to say is just a thing right people have that right but then other people I have found have kind of like an ingenious way of asking for it to be done for them and then it happens well maybe I mean I guess it depends what's spit out sure I'm not being dubious I'm not being skeptical about but I would be a little bit it depends on what it's spit out if it's just whether more of what you would say then you probably who knows you know what I mean well I think what I'm referring to is probably not totally I mean it's related to this but it's in it's in relation to doing a a meditative practice where people were having a hard time with their own thoughts getting in the way of doing a mantra or having a visualization and then some people were able to find ways to like Let It Go they could see it as a color floating in the sky or smoke coming from their nose or their mouth and then other people who weren't able to you know didn't want to do that with their own sort of being asked for help from some somebody something and then they said that they were just completely clear and and were able to have this visualization with details I did not provide I guess the thing would yeah so I guess if you're really tapping into the whole yian thing is that you tap into some deeper part of yourself yeah right yeah so yeah I guess it like it's hard you get there is how you get there right yeah yeah yeah um so he gives an example of a patient of his where this was sort of like what am I what am I being asked to do here exactly and uh this patient described sitting in a train station and there was a large poster like a travel poster for like the Swiss elps or something and he okay just said okay I'm going to imagine myself going into this poster so he just kind of had again this Ry of going into the poster and he started walking inside the poster so now he's going through some special space right in this case some spot up in the mountains right they'll call this a portal yeah and um uh so he saw a chapel there was a statue of the Virgin Mary and then he said some creature appeared with like pointy ears that was not like part of what he was in any way consciously trying to imagine this little creature just popped up and then disappeared and he was like okay but then it came back again and he was like oh so this isn't exactly me doing this something else is happening and he said well okay that's that's how this patient learned what Yung was talking about and Yung was like yeah it's something like that something will happen that you start to feel is a little bit bigger than maybe what would be the normal Comins of how you see and think about things things however you get there I guess right had more you wanted to do on the elemental part of that I mean to like ve no no no no it's fine because it it's okay I mean this is the this is the part though this is the important part so and this goes back to something I wanted to touch on earlier when we were talking about meditation people sit or they they talk about at least when they talk to me about it because I talk about it a lot when they say oh I I can't meditate because I can't quiet my mind and I said oh I didn't realize that was uh something you should be doing you know they're like well isn't that the point I said I don't know what is the point maybe you should illuminate me as to the point of what you think meditation is so we can have at least a discussion on on the frame of reference that we're talking about because I think we're coming at it from two two different points now I understand what they're saying but some people come they want to be they want to relax you know they look at meditation as like a stress relief technique or some kind of like you know blood pressure hack something like this you know and it St on that later on too so yeah I'm gonna come back to that yeah I'm not trying to like take it away but I had the same thought yeah so which it does those things it's a byproduct of those things which we've talked about before you know like we we've definitely [...] on meditation as a life hack numerous times but it's worth doing so do it you know what I'm saying yeah it's not not a like it's not not a life hack that's that's the irony uhuh yeah no for me it's a key that unlocks the door to the path but that's not a hack that requires actually more work so like probably have to change but there you go that's the hard part yeah um so your ability to find the ways in which that you can quiet some of those some of that random chatter that is the that is the way you know but like even if we were to highlight numerous ways that you can go about and we have already we've given two right letting things go or we've talked before about cutting them off using like a scissors or a knife or a sword or something like this or asking for help those are three different methods one's own creative nature will arise with enough practice to help somebody in various times as they progress in their practice but those steps cannot be missed they cannot be skipped and they cannot be gifted to you it is those I for me that is a transformative part when you're able to do those things when you're able to work with yourself in that particular way in that very very particular way and and just so we're clear I'm referencing us working with our own uh stream of Consciousness our own thoughts that are looping and swirling if you can find a way to work with that that will change you because in those moments then you start to have uh interaction with things that are unconscious moving into your Consciousness and then you can start to break that stream you can start to break that flow and and you can have a sense of you know that's the beginning of Freedom you know at least in my mind that's the beginning of your saying I'm not going to be The Whipping Boy or whipping gal or whipping person to the drives and inherent Natures that are me that are controlling me in the way that I'm not even aware of influencing my decisions and actions mundane conceptions and appearances of my own mind yeah yeah yeah that have been I think yeah that have been influenced by culture Society parents religion all that other stuff you know just my own upbringing potentially right yeah yeah yeah and gen and genetics and you know all the other you know all of karma karma yeah we've talked about this at at nausea but this is this is what I'm referencing and so it's difficult and it's a continually unfolding process so what you learn in the beginning will help you so far and then you have to learn it again and again and again and again on a deeper level you know but that as you do that you're unlocking it's like trying to put the Rubik's Cube together with being I don't know blind or blindfolded you you'll eventually make it work you know and you'll get it all lined up right but until you try more optimistic than like putting the Rubik's cube blindfolded might be a hard task like wow that sounds really difficult yeah but any case yeah yeah you know it's funny because I don't think in Yung what where I hesitated for a moment was he doesn't seem to like say anything about what to do with that flow of free association which ultimately is probably your own complexes Yes except maybe a recognition there is there are things like in the mahamudra teachings in tibetan meditation and so on that you have maybe similar things in Zen you could cut like with a sword they talk about that yep they also talk about the idea that you can go and just uh let things just fly away like like you're out in the ocean and you let a bird a bird go it'll just fly off the deck but then come back again right the bird will wander and come back wander and come back because it has nowhere else to go so the bird flying away is like the wandering thoughts and they'll come back again because where else is the bird going to go it's in the middle of the ocean it has to go back right um where there's also the idea of you know the uh the more of the the sword imagery or those kinds of things right where you're more cutting which is a little bit more of a but the funny thing is he doesn't talk about that so I was a little bit like what should I say about that I wasn't sure but you know that stuff is there for sure right um I think the main point he's making is to make the distinction between your mundane mind and this other part right that seems to be what he's asking you to notice or something but with the idea then you're going to tap into this other part so maybe it's building on the exercise the other way he kind of this gets talked about is you could take a dark mood or a problem and let that crystallize into some kind of image yeah and then interact with that and see what that has to say we had brought this up when we were talking a long time ago at this point about that book uh why Buddhism is is true the science behind meditation and Enlightenment that's the uh the is it Robert Wright or Richard Wright I forget his name yeah yeah yeah yeah and in that book he uses the acronym rain right which we've talked about before but we'll bring it up again because it's been a long time recognize acknowledge investigate and non- attach and if we're gonna let's say a dark mood or or you know rough that recognize what's the a again acknowledge acknowledge okay okay so we'll say you're having some you know let's let's go heavy you're having some you know my life is meaningless type thoughts right and you're you're able to sit and you have you have a meditative practice and and that that just means that you could just be sitting in quiet reflection for five minutes or you know more than you need more than that but let's just say five minutes here okay because this stuff can happen almost instantaneously if you can do it you know so you're you're paying attention to yourself and then you recognize I have this very negative voice going on in my head saying my life is not worth living okay so that's the recognition that is there you give it you give it a little bit of light okay it's here then I have to say it is here so the recognition and the acknowledgement one is one is kind of like feeling something with your eyes closed it's there's something that you're feeling but then when you open your up you go oh wow this is a thing that's here this is a you know paper bag full of baseballs I don't know that's Let It Go I'm gonna actually like own it acknowledge that it's there really fully say okay I'm gonna like yeah I'm G to really accept this as a thing I'm not going to take it just as some fleeting thing that passed and now I'm gonna like pretend like it never happened at all correct correct then you're going to investigate it and this is the part that you're why it brought this to my mind because your in the investigation is the sort of characterization of the thing how does it feel how does it sound how does it smell and when I say feeling I yes emotional but I also mean how does it feel does it have a texture is it rough is it smooth is it bumpy is it squared is it circular is it in is it contained is it sticky you know what I'm saying like you want to give it as good of a description as you can because you're acknowledging it is part of you at the moment and then once you have it as you know categorized as you can with this investigation then you will then you can then you can finally let it go because you have you have done the investigation part to know where it is take would be something like as you get to this point where it starts to happen it'll probably like start to Auto auto go away yeah a lot of the power will kind of go away from it or something yeah there's a guy named Fritz pearls who's a founder of this school called the gal the gastal School of Psychology and um he had this thing about dreams which I kind of share in some of the classes where this comes up where I have to teach on psychology for traditional Chinese medical people but um you know he said like when you have a dream since you're interacting with your own mind now he's not making the deal that you're interacting with the deeper parts of your Collective unconscious he's not saying that here so that's a distinction I want to like I don't want to let that go because that is a little bit of a different thing in Yung but he is saying like you're interacting with your own mind and so that means that anything that appears in the dream when you're woken up later on you can still go okay I remember that dream it was very powerful or disturbing whatever it was I can go back and I can talk to anything in that dream that personification of things is really interesting right you go back and you say I'll talk to whatever figure is that in that dream and I'll like figure out what it means you know as you go through it again have we ever talked about this here on the podcast I can't remember well I I had mentioned to you but and and if I've mentioned it on the podcast a couple weeks ago I and I'm repeating myself I to our audience I apologize but I've had two dreams in the last few weeks where I have woken up within my dream to tell the other people that are in my dream that they are a part of me okay and that I am now going to meditate and you're going to go away and that I can prove to them that I am me and that they are me because we are connected by manipulating reality or manipulating myself you know so I'll say oh you think we're in the building now now we're not we're in a field you know oh you don't think that I can fly bye you know I come back up I sit back down like no no you are me I know it because I know what you're going to say I know what you're going to think because that's what I would think because this is me so I think like yeah yeah yeah so that's basically the idea you can talk to the figures in your dreams now other people's dreams are intrinsically boring so uh uh that's just what it is uh g r was very honest about that and very true about that yeah but you know when you look at you had a disturbing dream you can go back and you can just say okay like who are the people in this dream you know and I've done this uh you know times where it's been like oh that's a really powerful one you know even when dreams that were very scary or something right yeah um so I maybe as an example though other people's dreams are boring uh I had one where there was one of these like uh movies you weren't supposed to watch because it would drive you insane it's kind of like one of those Japanese hor movie things and of course you know in the in the in the dream uh me and my this I had this back when I was getting my head shrunk back in my 20s and and uh in the dream of course me and my friends just start watching the movie immediately and you know it has like different segments in it and I remember at the first segment I like paused it and then he was like just cutting his own arm just like completely lost his mind and like in the dream you should really like help that person but in the dream you don't you just hit play again right and they had a couple of vignettes in it and I won't dwell on the other ones because other people's dreams are boring but when you get to the end of it it was like sort of a weird weird little thing it was very short to to tell it was a guy who was walking on a road like through a forest at night and he was going to murder this woman in a house and all you could see at the house was like this big white house and you knew there was a woman Inside and so the guy was gonna go murder this woman and I woke up from this dream like heart palpitating and like it was [...] scary to me yeah and I was like oh my God that's terrifying and I remember like during Co I was was walking around talking with my son and we were talking about scary dreams because he had had had this nightmare which was a little similar about the unreliability of friendship because he had a friend and there was a jar with a bunch of monsters inside of it and he was telling his friend don't open the jar the monsters will fly out the's friend immediately opens the jar out come the monsters but anyways um and I was like I told him this dream of mine that I thought was really scary and he was like well that's not scary At All by monster dream that [...] was scary this I don't know what that was and I was like yeah you know people are don't that are scary but the point was you know I knew this Fritz Pearl's thing and like I started talking to the figures in the dream just to give an example yeah right and it was after I woke up it wasn't like in the you know like a lucid Dre that's but I woke up and I was just like um uh let me ask the house what it thought and the house was like don't blame me I'm just a house I'm an innocent bystander in this whole thing and then you ask that you know the figure who's the woman in the house who's going to get murdered and she's like this guy's never going to make it here he's goingon to die on the road anyways he's never going to find me and she was like kind of doing her nose thing with him like I'm kind of putting for the video of my my thumb on my nose and like doing my fingers she was afraid of him at all nana nana boo boo it was a Nana Nana thing she was like not afraid of this guy even for a second yeah as M fact she was mocking him the whole time and I was like and then there was the guy who was kind of like a shadowy figure probably would be a Yi in Shadow which was all this kind of violence and anger and I think as I started talking through it what I realized it had a lot to do with like the family where I was raised my dad was an explosively violent person my mom was like kind of like a little bit like my dad always called her histrionic I don't know where he got that diagnosis but she was like an attention-seeking person even if it was negative and they had this battle to the death between them right and I think that's part of why it was so disturbing for me right because it isn't as disturbing on the on the surface you're watching the movie shouldn't be that scary right but I woke up like you know and so that's an example of something from my own life you know just to like apply the technique I don't know that make sense I'm given it as an example yeah yeah yeah so anyways but the thing is like you're talking to your own mind though the thing I think that Yung is saying is a little bit different though maybe there's archetypal figures in this dream maybe that's the reason why it's scary too the one guy's a shadow figure walking down the road the other woman's probably some kind of Anima figure but like not a pleasant one like back in the house or something you know like a some kind of internal feminine figure but like not a pleasant aspect of the enem or something anyways like you could look at it that way the thing that gets me about this is that Jung's argument or Jung's point is when you get to this archetypal world there's a certain magic within that because it has a power that isn't there within your normal kind of mind and does that make sense what I'm saying yeah I use you know well let me before I answer H how much longer do we have because I don't want to go into we I haven't talked about the journeying at aspect which is totally related to this but like I need space let's do it let's do it if it takes like 15 20 minutes what the hell do it make this the whole episode right and then we'll call it okay fine so so the this this act of imagination and it it is just opposed to a a shamanic journeying practice in the way in which that I was taught Mary Mary Kay learn that is uh represented by the the Harner foundation in in this country Michael Harner he's written a couple books uh he's like a famous kind of shamanic person in the states Daniel yeah yeah for sure yeah he has a cave and Cosmos was he w r he wrote in 2016 and the other one is the the way of the shaman written like book very famous yeah and so the the use of uh repetitive sounds generally four to eight beats per second produces um a particular brain wave pattern they they've done research on this so they kind of know it's the the Theta State and then in in the state you kind of referenced earlier as um what did you call it Eric uh oh revery or hypnogogia okay yeah that this this particular particular Theta state is uh tranquil but alert you know deeply tranquil but but still alert enough to to interact and so you have this repetitive noise and generally drumming is used that you are able to sort of quiet the the mind in a sense quiet the egos or quiet the default mode Network or the chitter chat or what however you want to describe it enough so that you can have these Visions now the difference in journeying and active imagination is journeying you're actually leaving yourself in active imagination you are descending into yourself now a question may come up from people who don't know that they should ask it can you journey to yourself yes you can you can so at some point there's there's a little bit of a different thing but I think the a journey like going out into the world to get information that you wouldn't otherwise get about the external world is that the idea there so so you brought something up earlier going outside of yourself or inside of yourself so I'm curious what that so so you're in journeying when you Journey your another synonym for journey is traveling so we can call it traveling right they call us astral projection or something like this you know meaning like not that you're going into the Stars which you can do uh meaning that you're allowing your astral body body to travel and when we say Astro body maybe a better way of using this idea is using something from Chinese medicine out of the wood element associated with the liver and the gallbladder talking about the dreaming body the hon probably this you know so some aspect of yourself that can see and have vision and has some form relative tangible kind of form that will travel now you can go anywhere anywhere anywhere is open to go past present future space under ground right here in this middle stage you can go into a dream but the thing that the the difference is that like everything in your journey that you experience is alive there is an energy to everything everything is interconnected it it is interconnectivity in a Buddhist sense in in in utmost practice so if there's two people okay so there's like that man we'll use your dream there's that man who was doing the trying to do the killing and then the woman in the house who you had fear for there's them two that you could certainly interact with but then there's the relationship between them that you could interact with and this is a little bit of a different different take same thing you can interact with the house you could interact because in the house I didn't take the house at face value I thought the house was being a little bit dubious too right I'm just a house I'm an innocent house don't like look at me yeah right but that energy yeah that that that like the containment of that so you can interact with with all the things and what I tell people is that like in these states we are interacting with different aspects of reality that have to relate to us because they probably are relatively formless I don't mean formless without any form they are form less than us and so but they have to relate to us on a Psy energetic D dynamics that aren't showing themselves in very like obvious you know okay got yes okay and so then I'll use my shirt here I I don't that's hard to describe but imagine that if I had a sheet okay everybody knows what a sheet looks like if I took my hand behind the sheet and pressed my fingers through everybody who saw those fingers through the sheet if they didn't know it was my hand that was behind it probably would would interpret that hand behind that sheet in different ways right and so in this way when we are journeying or and in this case we can call it active imagination because I think they are probably the yin and yang paired practice we have to be open to various forms of communication from this relatively formless energy or this form lless world or this form lless series of interactions you know and allow them to come through and so the issue that most people have when they're doing active imagination and more importantly when they're doing journeying because this has been something that you know I've been teaching now for the last what nine 10 years that I learned with Mary Kay I still teach courses with Mary Kay I still learn from Mary Kay it's an ongoing practice people have a hard time believing what it is that they see because of their mind going blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah you know a recurring theme of this whole deal it's quite interesting it is a recurring theme yeah this is and so they can't do that because they immediately justify or rationalize everything that they see I know what that is I know what that is oh I know what that is I know how that's related and they fill in the puzzle without actually doing any investigation they do the recognition and acknowledgement part but the investigation is just cut off completely and so they're not able to actually quickly dismissive you kind of have the experience and you're like okay I know what it is and yeah they you say I know what it is or that's not real or um that's related to that thing so then you can close that Loop put it in a box and shove it back in your closet you know what I'm saying but you don't allow the things to unfold for various numbers of re you know various reasons some of which again there's a lot more because people are so Dynamic but some of which is fear you know much like why Carl Young didn't want to express as other people because some of it is fear kind of like like fear that can lead to things like repression and some of it is it fear that this might be something that is so even though they're there to learn and the people are here to experience it it's so far outside of their normal waking State mind flow that it's very difficult to grasp even though they want to grasp it or they want to have it there and the other part is that we do a lot of grasping thing we want things to fit and in this state we are in again relatively formless States so if there's an energy of healing that I that wants to connect with me because I am here to connect with it for whatever karmic reason that might be the case it's you know it may show up as a nurse but it might show up as a bear you know or it might show up as something you know it could show up as something and our inability to com to vary our ways in which we communicate hamper our ability to connect with them so we're always looking for Words we're always looking for the Visions we're always looking for things that are very tangible but in those States rarely are you going to get hi I'm the healing spirit and I'm here to help you with childhood H you know it's not going to it's going to be a deep knowing really funny because I have like in my notes the same kind of [...] that we'll get to a little bit further on but it's like the same ideas we keep because they're so important there are the quintessential ideas right yeah and so we have a very hard time and I think it comes down to like levels of like trust and faith actually that we can believe in what we're seeing and and extend ourself in such a a way that we lower our guard down to receive this information and take it in and go forth with it um you know and I've taught many many people and many more people have had difficulty with it to be totally honest most people eight out of 10 people which is a huge surprise can actually have visions and see these things which is crazy to think no no psychedelic no crazy amount of breath work nothing nothing like this just lay down cover their eyes hit some drums and all sudden here they're off like seeing animals and things like it's hypnogogic though right it do like because you go to those places probably every time you're folling asleep you're having this experience absolutely I paid attention to this in these Tibetan meditations because sometimes you're like I can't sleep I can't sleep and you're like oh now I'm GNA fall asleep because I can see the fields or I can see the water or I can see the things lot of times it's nature actually it's interesting right yes the nature Energy starts to pop up in it it's not my specialty to do what you're talking about but right you know but it's but I obviously I do some of it that you do meditation enough you're doing this stuff yeah and it's uh though I don't have the training that you have but it's fascinating you know it's like that and the the the practice for me and Mary Kay probably would disagree with me but at least the initial development of one's practice is having the sense of belief in what it is that you are experiencing yeah this is exact the next part of these [...] notes I have here that that is that is and I haven't read that part I haven't read that far no no I'm not saying this is this is this is what happens when you get out of these subject matters yeah when you get in here that's the hard that's the hard part that's the leap of faith because there is you know between the acknowledgement and the inspection and then the the kind of like moving forward with whatever the next piece is it's not a there's not a clear Bridge actually like you have to be willing to come out and share that like I just had a conversation with Jesus I I had one time had had a friend who said literally said that he's like I didn't see much I said well what happened he's like I don't know man I was walking on a beach and then I took some stairs up to the sky and I had a conversation with Jesus and then he took me to some crazy City and then we talked some more and then he came back but like you know I don't even know is any this real or not I was like dude what do you what BR what do you say like die of laughter it's so funny you know like people would people would beg for that in their whole life and you just wrote off like like it's it's meaningless you know oh godamn that's so funny you know but but that's but that's what happens and then other people it's so incredulous to them that like they'll literally start and I've had a num I I've laughed that hard on any any podcast it's f it is funny you know I love him he's great my actual laugh like I don't know how many times we've laughed on the podcast but like that shit's funny well that's yeah okay go ahead yeah and one more but then some people some people they can't at all they they they rationalize everything away and as soon as we're done they Google what does this mean what does that mean I'm like you talked about that yeah you saw walrus and I got some beetles lyrics and I'm an Eggman and a walrus cuckoo kachu yeah that's it and some people are so and I don't know I don't know what it means about their psyche but they're so blown away that they could even have any experience they literally just cry you know they come out they're just so tearful and joyful that like they didn't think that they deserved that kind of imagery in their lifetime that's actually very touching oh it's extremely touching very moving that's very moving and I've seen it a number of times so um not not meaning to plug but I'm G to teach next year again okay great probably probably in uh February or March or something like this and so I've been doing this for years so this this kind of subject matter is very near and dear to my heart and I I quite love it and it is it's difficult to be able to break through to touch the archetypal forces that are that are inherent within us all I believe um because we're in our own way surprise surprise yeah that's been the theme of the thing right okay so I'll do the like the other part of this and it's like exact like it's an exact parallelism to what you're talking about but so okay and Yung the point that comes up is that you know to get into this space has an incredible power in Yung and then like what we're agreeing in reality itself right like and we had talked about these episodes with love and Alchemy and synchronicity so this is where the synchronicity thing starts to pop up again and you know we had done the synchronicity thing a little bit when we talked about love because what yung's observation is and it is true when two people love each other a bunch of synchronistic [...] will start to happen around them like it actually happens right that's one of the indications that those two people love each other is that a bunch of synchronicity will start to occur right this is Young's observation and I anyone who's been you know like you seriously have loved someone it happens all of a sudden all this synchronistic stuff starts to happen and if it doesn't it doesn't mean that you're not in love it just it doesn't mean it does happen if you're really in love with someone it happens yeah yeah it does when there's a lot of emotion it happens yeah so it's like that's never happened to me you know I'm getting a divorce it's up to you but like it is true when people are really like something happens that because it's a spiritual event right yeah how come happens so things synchronize out and you get a lot of synchronicities and like the thing about that is that it's very hard for people to uh to believe that actually it's very hard for people to believe that oh it's synchronizing I mean I've had these conversations with people you're like okay this is pretty massive synchronicity involving you in this person or you know in our own lives with another person that we know You' be like this is synchronicity this tells you something important is happening and people don't want to believe it right because you have to somehow get to this that's just an example but it was one of the ones we talked about before because we were talking about these love and relationships things but the it it you know it connects into this whole thing because what's happening then is you're tapping into some deeper some deeper part of the world kind of right the universe or something right you're tapping to some deeper level and then in a certain sense the difference between inside and outside starts to obscure living meditation yeah it's like it's not it's not this is what Yung wrestled with in his own life in a way too to figure out what he this meant because all of a sudden the external world will start doing things that are reflecting aspects of your own inter States and emotions yes and that's a weird experience because all of a sudden you're you're interacting with something that is is not only inside you but is also outside you the external world of feedback I think that's the reason why this objective psyche phrase is kind of so interesting because it's like he was using it to get to the point of like okay these are inner things inside of me my own inner states of loving some other person and having the synchronistic events happening around that outside or I meditate on an archetype and then things of that archetype start to appear on the world around me in ways that don't just seem coincidental anymore or don't just feel like all of a sudden I'm noticing something that was there all the time they don't feel that way anymore they have a certain thing where the inside and the outside is mirring one another right yeah you know and then this gets to the point that the archetypes are like then then tied to the external world and again it could be true in like genuine love between people where the universe will kind of start speaking right or it'll be true when you get into archetypal aspects of things right and the mundane conceptions and appearances to use the Buddhist tantric phrase will start to kind of like um not rule the day as much and this other part of reality will start to like make itself more known right and you're outside the world of the default mode Network or the constriction Saturn world that we're talking about in kind of our episodes around Sofia and Yahweh you're outside of that world you're into a different part of the world and it's very weird to think that that exists but this is the synchronicity part so I had to bring that part up next because that's one of the next things that happens once you start getting into these deeper parts of yourself you're tapping into like a deeper part of reality where again internal and external is not how we normally think of it as being in the way that we we'd see them in our again to use the phrase mundane conceptions mundane appearances of things those things start to get kind of Blown Away get something more on that before I talk about seven sermons to the dead no I think we should C I think we should I think we should cut it here though to be totally no we got a little bit left in this part so we might as well finish it bit left okay yeah hold on one one quick second here Eric let me um let me get this thing out one sec all right Eric I was able to find what I needed so we're we're good to continue yeah but the secret part is what we we uh we actually unrecorded and we talked about whether we should just quit right yes that's exactly what happened and we agreed even though the smooth transition happen smooth jazz transition that's right yeah and I I think we agree so it seems like it's a place where we can kind of just do the other part of the experiential thing but that's kind of a good place to stop right yeah this whole idea of how like okay when you if you can get to this part of yourself then you're tapping into something outside of you know your whatever you want to call it your own default mode Network your own existential Guardian operating system your own mundane conception and appearances the blah blah blah of your own complexes and your own minds and your own doubts and fears and insecurities and so on if you can get outside of that then you get into this deeper thing and then it hooks you up with the universe in a new way right how's that for an experiential episode ending that's about as good as you can get right doesn't get any better that's probably how the journeying works too which we can talk more next time right all of a sudden you're getting information from the external world that is available now because the the that line starts to blur right we will pick up on it yeah I got some I got a couple good stories too you know all right excellent that sounds great yeah awesome well Eric as always thank you so much brother you know we're uh we're doing this thing audience uh thank you guys for rocking with us I know we you know I can't see you but people do interact with us so you know please feel free to do drop a you know a comment in the YouTube videos we definitely get back to them um or you know like subscribe do all that kind of stuff I think everybody knows that standard thing at this point it's like rote memorization um hit us up on Instagram uh Jin and Tantra podcast we get back to those um Jin and Tantra gmail.com if you want have a longer kind of message you're welcome to to hit us up that way uh you know share with friends or family or enemies or friendenemies or your boss or somebody you're trying to influence they say here's a subtle nudge of you might something you might want to listen to you know maybe we can uh influence their mind so which is ultimately what we're we're trying to do you know really influence people's minds and hearts help to kind of shake loose some of the perspectives that uh that people have they may not even know they have and vice versa you know I have learned a lot from um book recommendations and things that that our listeners have brought to us as we've as we've been doing this and also been very inspired by the changes that people have made uh to themselves via their their sharing with us like hey I I listened to your episode on this and I started reading this and then you know like we love to hear that because it's you know it's why we do it you know honestly like we we do this as this is like I say all the time this is a labor of love you know we're not monetized we're not any of those kinds of things we we do this because we thoroughly enjoy it uh you know what's that says something about us that know we narcissistically like to hear ourselves talk I don't know also that yeah being honest no no I think it's like the idea that like you know you get to talk about things that have real existential deep meaning like this young stuff is deep yeah right stuff is deep yeah yeah the dream stuff is deep even though other Dre people's dreams might be boring that doesn't mean that they don't have real meaning to them you love dreams I'm teasing about that because you love dreams and you know like it's just a joke you know he's always talking about his dreams constantly yeah so uh anyways yeah thanks everybody for tuning in we will definitely look forward to catching everybody in the next one for Eric this is Daniel we'll see you soon peace [Music]