[Music] hey fellow G and tear those of us like our spirituality with a Twist um so we are at the very end part uh Daniel and I were just talking off mic about this this long series that we did about nine things that can [...] up your life and uh so two things are happening in this one for me Daniel one is that we're ending this and it's been a very thoughtful thing to end this series for me yeah and the other part has been I'm a little bit in kind of download Retreat mode I came out of retreat um you know week and a half ago two weeks ago and uh but I still feel like I'm kind of getting the the Buddhist goddesses whispering in my ear so I'll try to share a little bit of this and a little bit of that and we'll see um especially it's really funny some like sort of at least semi-angry Buddhist goddess energy which I will try to do my best to convey I will try to be a voice box for the angry Buddhist goddess energy and we'll see how it goes um so I you know I was we it's funny because we were talking about this just before we went on mic but I was being a little meta about this for me because we you know we do these little Series right yeah uh and for me they're I was trying to think what is this about for me and so I whether it's people's cup of tea or not I don't know but we do them that way and I thought you know they're kind of Socratic in a way right you have like these dialogues and we kind of talk these things through yeah and other people get to participate in them yeah know and uh you I was looking at BO I don't have it in front of me here but I was like kind of showing some students you know teaching my Chinese Medical classes one of the old DS books where they talk about uh sexuality and you know they're they're all in dialogue form right so you know you get to participate in the dialogue with people and uh there's no hamlock involved at the end you know like in the Socrates thing we get to go through and just have very nice classes of Bud this nectar I've just fing up our little icon over here on my cup yes you know the martini class glass of g&t NE nectar um but you know we we kind of talk these things through so people can participate and it what really hit me about it I had a student who was talking about listening to a podcast about Isaac Newton and some aspect of Isaac Newton's life he worked for the royal Min or something and I was doing a lecture and then the student was like oh yeah I was listening to this podcast he told me in the chat about Isaac Newton and I was thinking that's cool and I love Rando information as much as anyone yeah maybe more so you know so I was like okay that's cool and and I was thinking that's a lot of podcast stuff is like that this kind of like slightly Rando information and I love that too you know but what I was thinking about at least what we're trying to do here and what really hit me was you and I are really [...] serious we are two serious individuals and we really care about this [...] like a lot you know it's not general info for us it's like of existential import right yeah yeah it's like deadly [...] serious yeah like when I'm listening when I'm so like right now I am uh listening again to um this book The Essence of the heart Sutra yeah yeah yeah okay and um and I've listened to it before but when I listen to it I'm not just listening to it I'm literally trying to absorb everything as I'm hearing it like I'm trying to I'm trying oh yeah yeah got remember gotta remember and like we were joking earlier it's like okay here's a list of 37 things that are all associated with this you know practice or whatever and I'm like okay gotta remember okay five and then six and then you know irony on Daniel that Daniel is I was just doing that 37 list over the retreat I was just sticking it in the Mandela because there a theory of how to do it so you and I are in many ways sympatico as always yeah yeah yeah but it no but you're you're you're right right it's a it's h it's an important thing I'm not just listening to it passively like a story and I don't really do that with much of anything anyways to be totally honest like whatever I'm into I'm I'm very into it I'm like okay this is important I'm taking my time and listening to it other than music I think that's you know I don't everything else is done with a level of reverence really yeah I don't mind some Rando brain candy here and there it's totally fine but you know what hit me was goddamn we're serious about this you know like in the in a a good sense of the word like we are dead ass [...] serious about this stuff you know and even like in doing this project that we just finished like I'm very serious about these nine [...] obstacles mhm and I'm quite sure that if you're not really careful with them they will [...] up your life I'm absolutely [...] positive on that point definitely so there's just more oomph behind this yeah no speaking from experience believe you know it's like it's not yeah we're we're human beings right and I think yeah that's definitely been one of the things that has come up you know and my and and my teachers have talked about it you know you've mentioned your experience with Gil rache about this but you know my experience with my yoga teacher Andre it's like when you're sitting at the Helm of the class or the you know at the head of the whatever teaching atmosphere you are trying your best to channel and be with the the methods and experience of what it is that you are trying to present right yeah yeah yeah and you're almost in that moment you know they'll say it like deeply you're trying to like be an emanation right of a a Buddha or something like this but then when you get down from that and you go like in the bathroom and you take a pee like you're a human being yeah yeah yeah and there is I think on some level some desire to see people as one or more of the other you know so some people will will view their their teacher or their guide we'll call them maybe as something other than super you know other than normal Beyond mundane and then other people in order to kind of bridge the gap between them and the one that they're learning from want to see them as as a as it is the same you know very very human very real very kind of connected to the reality that we are all sharing and you know based on how you do that I think it affects the way that you practice also you know can you accept because the the the thing is it's like we've said it before the tantric view it's not what you're doing but how you're doing it so can you accept moving beyond conventional truth moving beyond the appearances of things can you accept somebody for um what they represent not just necessarily like who they are in in as a as a as a being as a name you know what I'm saying and I think it's that level of and and I'm mentioning all of this it's because it it shows the level of depth of practitioner not not depth like importance not depth like good or bad but like you're willing to take on your practice even with the people that you are learning from that you are practicing with seeing Beyond just these the simple appearances of you know a being with one head two arms two legs and a mouth really as an emanation of something that is greater than them and then trying to do that with other people you know really really doing that and I know that you do that and we always say try to see the best in people but really in the tantric teachings it's not just seeing the best in people it's seeing the best of the best of people constantly like always always you know can you remember that seeing their inner Divinity or something like that yes yes and that's but those are that's a but I said that's a serious practice it's very deep you know that's not a flipping it's not like oh I spend 10 minutes on my yoga mat in the morning doing some breath work and then I'm the you know a regular prick for the rest of the day you know that's that's not it those are moments of like reframing and then you go about the rest of the day trying to actually practice trying to actually do what it is that you are doing when no one else is around you know well you know what's kind of trippy about it you know uh again as I was thinking about just like I don't know you know sometimes things hit you with a certain force and I was like wow we're really serious about this you know and I was thinking about how hard it can be like I've been like a student in teachings and you can kind of get the feeling of like man this teacher is just begging us to [...] listen to what they're saying they're like really trying to get us to understand you know so even with like this thing that we've been doing you kind of get to the point where you're like okay are we are we doing this or not like you should know these nine [...] things yeah and you should be looking at your life going okay are these things causing me a problem or not are they working or not working this is what you know these spiritual teachings are kind of trying to beg you to do right they're begging you to do this stuff and I don't know probably we don't right or we could do it more you know we probably don't do it prophylactically I think if you are I don't like to use the word but for just for the sake of conversation I'll say conscious and I know that it's kind of like a loaded term everybody's conscious but I guess you know people understand what I mean in in terms of like you're aware of your life as it is unfolding right so you're aware simultaneously as things are happening so if you are that definition of conscious then you might be aware as situations and circumstances arise if you're familiar with these you know nine obstacles that this hey this might be one of them oh hey my family of origin and my community of origin is having a lot of influence over me that I no longer Vibe with and I'm having to either create strong boundaries or completely break from that thing which you know you have had I have had many of our listeners have had can you recognize that right maybe not as it's occurring but maybe immediately after you can go oh yeah because you might just feel in the moment these PE I don't believe the way these people do they're controlling [...] this doesn't fit with me but the the goal would be to be like no yes what you're saying is correct those people are [...] and whatever they're doing is not good for your life and your spirit more importantly but the bigger point is that like no this is one of these like fundamental things that is here for you to break from that is here for you to transform from and if you can recognize that then there are ways in which you can work your way around it so that it doesn't repeat itself yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I keep getting back to the same thing like I can just feel like that begging quality of people trying to go like see this [...] and like use it in your actual existence but I think a lot of the stuff ends up going like you know it just uh they sometimes describe it in the Tibetan Buddhist world is like a cup with a bunch of holes on the bottom you know the stuff goes in and just falls off the bottom so you never really retain it you know and uh it's just part of a Tibetan metaphor some people are they say close cups you try to pour stuff in nothing's going to get through the cup right then they'll talk about situation where the cup is kind of dirty and you put the stuff in there and that person has so much of their own [...] in there yeah that you can't make a good tea out of it because there's just a bunch of other crap in there and then some of it is like just holes in the bottom of the cup and things go in and they run out the bottom right well two two things one I want to do I I'm just going to name the nine obstacles in a moment but before I do that I just want to say this is probably why people from different Traditions teach the most simple things like when you think of Buddhism for at least for me what do I think of compassion they have they have distilled it down to that word because all the other pieces around it require a lot of focus a lot of training a lot of listening and what is it that you know they're trying to get through be a compassionate person of all the things that I could teach you let me give you this thing let me give you this bite-sized piece be compassionate you know what I'm saying and I think this way it's it tries to make something come across and they're trying to get you to listen to your point right like the teachers are like kind of like please listen please please I'm trying to help you and so in the way to like get that message through you make it super simple you just make it super simple and then this way if it if it's a seed right and if that seed takes takes root then the plant will grow up and it'll reach for the light from the place from which that seed came you know for those who like that for me it was a little bit different for me like and I've talked about this with different people when I would see the doll llama and he would say compassion I would shrug my shoulders and go okay well compassion that's cute right you know and cool I wasn't impressed with this stuff until I began to see things like what we're doing here right which is they've thought this [...] through very deeply yeah right and they're going like here's nine things if you are not careful with these nine things they will [...] your [...] up and you know and it's part of like a bigger context of a bigger teaching yeah I know I wasn't sure what we're going to talk about with this but it's interesting because even if you understand ground path result like really [...] get it yeah like we talked about that last episode yeah if you really get it it will blow your head open right and you'll have to think about stuff differently and you start realize there's a ground path result thing happening uh that you like if you can get that teaching really internalized and it makes you really you know think about from a student perspective and then you know when you're trying to teach stuff how difficult and challenging that is right yeah to get people to really take things in you know and uh um but that does get to maybe my Ang gu my Angry goddess energy in an interesting way too so it's curious right yeah because let me just do this uh just for our audience just to be aware uh nine obstacles very quickly and we have many many episodes on these so go back and listen you you'll get a much deeper breakdown but um the need for like food and clothing is is a first obstacle uh the kind of being smothered by your family of origin is a second love and attachment is a third obstacle kind of material goods and fame being drowned by these sort of desires is the fourth obstacle the fifth is sort of being plagued by uh self-inflicted suffering and crushed by a difficult livelihood so we can call it karma maybe in a sense that's the fifth I think it's like internal mental torture too which can either happen because you can't get [...] straightened on the outside or you're torturing yourself on the inside sure and it could also be you were born into like a very difficult kind of situation as well that's being tort tortured from the outside right yes yeah yeah yeah um and then so the sixth one is being fooled and controlled by false teachers so we we talked about that one um which has the sort of yeah the seventh one is being blinded by discussions and arguments I think we called that one endless debate uh which is interesting because right now when we are recording there is uh supposedly I'm sorry allegedly a uh presidential quote unquote presidential debate right which is definitely discussions and arguments and being fooled and controlled by false teachers hey hey some people were born of uh two Cheetos having intercourse and out came something orange uh the other one being trapped by laziness and lack of motivation that's the eighth and the LA the ninth was uh sort of the same kind of an extension of the previous one again laziness always waiting for the next next thing to come about yeah it's interesting for me like when I'm like getting like the Buddhist goddess energy they really want us to transform Our Lives you know they really want us to do this H it's interesting yeah yeah yeah it's stuff to think about um okay so yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm laughing because there's so much in it and like if you could really get it in yeah I feel like there well okay let's let me do my let me do my Angry Budd scus energy thing yeah yeah sure and then we'll kind of push it along because but you know I think last week's episode and Grand path result was really big too right to think about that maybe just a second on that because you know when you look at that what's trying to be said there is something like you know if you get the idea of ground path result what you sort of get is that if you can't get rid of these obstacles and you were saying this last week yeah you know what do you need to do you need to kind of get find out who you are you need to find the nature of your own soul or your own Spirit or something and these things will hold you back from that right right and it's also true that that will cause painful experiences which we can say spirituality spiritually speaking is dooka but it's also true that it will cut you off from the positive experiences right of either the high spiritual stuff like freedom and Enlightenment or even on the psychological level it will cut you off from the positive psychological experiences you can get you know so whether you're thinking about things in terms of like high spiritual things that you're trying to pursue whether you're trying to talk more about psychological stuff and like to use my three three favorite people you know Carl Rogers talks about getting out of these conditions of worth and if you can do that you'll feel your own authenticity and freedom you'll know your own Spirit you know Daniel what you were talking about is the way to get into this path in the first place right yeah or if you go to like a Carl Yung thing and you get out of these things you know these traps you'll get your own individuation and you'll understand your connection psychos spiritually to things if we do my willhelm Reich thing one of my other favorite Psych ologist that we've talked about with these things if you can get out of this emotional plague you'll be invested with more love and more creativity and pleasure and you know those aren't Enlightenment aspirations even per se that's just what it means to be a happy person you know now the thing as we were closing up the episode last week we're were talking about this if you look around the world and you think that this is like people are happy enough and everything is good okay that's cool but I don't you know I don't think this amount of happiness and this amount of spiritual growth and satisfaction is good enough you know and do you feel that same way too that's kind of where we were like closing it up last week right I just don't think it's good enough yeah I don't think it's good enough but I also think it's better than it's probably ever been I mean that's hard to say isn't it it's very difficult to say I just looking at like conditions of society the amount like slavery is looked down upon generally yeah yeah no I know what you mean there's like there's there's ways right we people are more appalled by well relatively appalled by you know genocide and Wars worldwide you know like even in this country like the the right and the left agree on very few things but anti-war is definitely something that is on both sides for the mo on the extremes of both sides they're both anti-war which is super interesting at this particular time you know politically I mean do you think there's enough individual human happiness and this comes from my teacher Master Shang Le Wong he was like No just no no I don't I don't think so kind talking more like a sociological level I know what you mean there's more tolerance for more kinds of people relatively speaking you don't have to hide if you're gay you don't have to hide as much if you're trans you don't have to hide as you know yeah there are improvements I'm not and you know yeah yeah for more people that's true but there's just a problem of like human happiness it's like all over the place not a small issue the question though with that is that who is that who is responsible for this or who shares responsibility for this is and how much of that falls upon the person versus how much of that falls upon the upbringing to teach the person how to generate their own sort of positive mental state without the need for as Andre loves to say external mediators okay what do you what do you think about that I believe that it is both so I believe ultimately that it is the responsible of the individual right assuming assuming that they are person is not like in a really dire state so let's just get that out of the way right you're born with some congenital thing or chronic issues or you know into a very very kind of I don't know poor situation we'll say that suffering is just part of your it's part of your existence you know the likelihood of somebody being able to transform that without a lot of input is probably the chances are not are not high they're they're quite small you know but if we're going to talk about the you know the average kind of uh array of human in Western society which is what we're probably referencing currently um I think that there is enough time and enough availability of information that people can help themselves on some level you know to what degree I don't know and so that's that's on the individual side on the societ IAL side I feel like they fail miserably because this is not disgust so everybody will say like you know do what makes you happy in life you tell your children and rightfully so as everybody else does you can be whatever you want to be in this life but in in in the same sense very few people are saying you should think about being happy and I have some you know fortunate I have some friends who who do quite well in life you know some clients and some friends and most of them will say make money first get happy later and that's a nice that's a nice position to have and I think that's probably the the Western View would you agree I mean it comes down to something I guess we'll get to what the Buddhist guys to say about this yeah I mean so I'll just finish then so so that's my this is my thought is that that's what this that's what this culture is pushing first get happy later right you can buy whatever you want you can take vacations you don't have to work you can you know whatever whereas I think if it was maybe to your point if it was flipped things would be better there would there would be less suffering because there would be less desires people would be be more willing to kind of communicate more openly there'd be more maybe the the tantalizing word we don't understand compassionate you know what I'm saying but like they'd be they'd be just in a better in a better place and so that the ride to wherever they're going to would be more joyful would have more pleasure yeah this is interesting you know like okay all I can say for me is in terms of like what I would teach my kids is I'm teaching my kids to stay away from these nine obstacles you know that's what I'm teaching them to do don't get [...] up by these things you know now we can frame that as an individual question or a societal question I suppose that's been somewhat of a point of like you and I have slightly different takes on some of stuff which I think is good right you know as we kind of like sort this out but I mean that's what I've tried to teach my kids don't let these things [...] you you know and then you'll probably be a happier person you know you'll still have to figure out how you're going to weave your way through the world right but you know that's a that's a Dos proposition right okay well I mean maybe I'll do my little goddessy thing and we'll see what we think yeah do it all right so I was on my retreat and um there's an interesting exercise right where you can kind of get into something where it reminds me of like in the cabala with like rabi nakan you know where he just says you know you can just talk to God and just see what you hear back right and so I learned those meditations some years ago and you'll be doing it and sometimes you'll have the feeling like okay am I hearing my own thoughts or am I hearing the thoughts of you know what I'm trying to connect with right that's an interesting exercise and I've mentioned this before because G would say you know when you have some connection to the Buddhist divinities you should just chat with them yeah right talk with Tara and see what Tara says and it can be interesting because um you know some of the stuff you'll feel like okay I agree with that but sometimes you get thoughts that maybe you don't agree with as we've talked about or sometimes you get thoughts like I agree with that but I probably wouldn't have had that exact thought in that way right yes so I was doing my retreat and I got like it was interesting I got some kind of like angrier energy and I was like okay there's a little Edge behind this there's a little anger behind this you know and you know some of the stuff that makes me frustrated and angry I could feel there but I was like this doesn't even feel exactly like me this feels like there's a little bit of some Edge to this and I was trying to figure out like where is this coming from and there are aspects of like the Buddhist Pantheon that I try to commune with right have a little chat with but it didn't even see feel like that to me it felt a little bit different and I was thinking what what was coming through it began to feel like sarasvati right and I have my little sarasvati statue here there she is beautiful little sarasvati playing her loot right and what for for people who are unfamiliar what is what is she I certainly will do it Daniel okay no it's good it's good that you call me on it right um so she is this I mean I think I can't claim like super expertise in like like uh you know Hinduism or Hindu Tantra that's not M more you know so she's a figure that kind of spans a lot of India I think you know there are different permutations but when you get to the root she's more Associated I mean you could see a little bit she's associated with sort of music and culture and art yes know and so I've tried to connect with her in my practice because of her connections with those things and my desire to be connect with those things right which is also very much connected with like intelligence knowledge so maybe connections even to like manduri in some ways right with like a little bit of a different flavor to it you know and I was like okay I feel like this is fair as spti and there was like a point she was trying to make you know and I guess I'll try to make it as best I can you know as we go through or you kind of a series of like a little bit of related uh things so I was contemplating F and it was interesting because I had this little statue sitting on it was sitting on the mantle over the fireplace and it wasn't up on the Altar and like began to think okay I'm having this like sparis fatti connection to my mind right and why is she like not sitting on the Altar and then I saw one of our friends of the show Ryan dport you know uh I had seen him he'd had some health problems I didn't see him for a bit so I saw him over the weekend and we had a little Saras fatti synchronicity so I was like okay there is a sarasvati Vibe going on we talking about he had been on a little getaway to I think Michigan uh and Michigan will come up again for me too and so he was out there and he was in a store and he just saw like a sarasvati statue and he bought it it's like what a kinky dink I've been convening with Sarah saati too and we kind of talked about our various SAS spati statues and I thought well that's interesting and you know I would say the Mantra to there's sort of a Buddhist version of the Mantra svati so I looked up in the book and um and I like I didn't know this before but there's in Tibetan Buddhism there's these sort of protector deities they're a little bit more aggressive right and one of them is palan L and uh a little bit more of an aggressive force and sparis fat is tied into that too so I was like okay that's interesting there's a little Edge on her and in my daily practice these are kind of open mantras I say the Mantra of this protector di figure and I say the Mantra of Saras Fati like together like every day and I didn't even know they were that connected so I was just kind of doing it I guess right so I was guess I was building up my speris vati vibe and I guess I'll try to get what she was getting across which has like multiple little features to it and uh I'll get your take on it so I don't know if you had this experience I which one of these do you feel like you connect to do you feel like you talk to any of these deities is that part part of your practice do you do that kind of thing Daniel or how do you handle that in your life I mean I you know I don't know I think I think there are periods of increased periods of connectivity or periods of increased connectivity right and what the reasons are for that I'm not sure I think going on to retreat or doing a practice over a really long period of time gives you a more intimate connection with some of these you know super super normal forces um and so then you might be able to feel them in your life and this kind of goes you know relates back to the sort of shamanic stuff that we've talked about in the past that you have these Spirit guides whether they be eagle or bear or Saraswati or you know whatever these are uh noncorporeal entities that exist in The Ether around us you know sort of eternally you know and how they manifest to us changes based on your experience and practice you know but they're there regularly I believe and what changes is our perception of their presence in our life and of course maybe they make the effort more when they're needed you know depending on what our life situation is calling for at that particular time so I I try and be open as I can to things but I will say when when it is time for you to hear from them it is unmistakable yeah there's something about it that's funny because you have the feeling like this is some [...] that I probably think but it's being said in a different way or something yes yes um and I guess it's a little bit like an antenna effect or something the way you were describing it the signal is always there it's a question if you turn the radio on and turn the volume up on it or something like that right though sometimes the signal will like amplify you know when you when you need it or something and the volume the waves will get a little bit more intense and you'll pick it up anyways or something right so I don't know more clearly I don't know if I could uh attribute this quote to anybody because I think I might have said it so I'm GNA quote myself which is like one of the most egotistical things you could do in this lifetime you know besides getting a portrait of yourself in your house it's a little weird yeah it's a little weird um but I don't remember who said it so I can't give any credit to anybody else but I do remember saying something like this cuz we're talking about this very thing about hearing uh guidance you know from our guides right and I said there is nobody else's voice that we trust in the world as much as we trust our own but this is the misleading part because when you hear something in your own voice you want to believe it but you could also be crazy you know what I'm saying you can right or diluted or or just off base you know but a lot of times when these you know being communicate with you it comes in the form of a thought you know and if you're subtle to the source of your thoughts which is why you know meditation is very important because you can become subtle to the source of your thoughts which is an amazing ability to be able to have it's still is it still is a subtle thing you're not like oh that's not mine so for sure you know what like I'm not saying that we're avoiding but you can become subtle to that you will know the way in which that that thought worded that it's not from you it's coming from somewhere or someone or something else and it's just pushing up in your brain like a sock puppet you know yeah it's interesting experience because you sort of are like well I could have a thought like this but I didn't think of it exactly this way it doesn't feel like me and even the anger behind it was a little bit more there's a little bit you know in tdri Booz and they talk about things being a little bit wrathful or a little bit Fierce or they a little cacity behind it all try to like share this set of experiences as best I can and I'll have to tell a tale to started I guess right sure so I was off in Michigan with my with my son a few weekends ago before I went on Retreat and we were going around like these little tourist towns in Michigan right uh kind of around like Grand Rapids they have a really great Sculpture Garden in Grand Rapids so I can highly recommend it if you're ever out in Grand rabic Michigan check it out it's really amazing you know famous sculptures like sculptur with pieces all over this huge plot of land it's really [...] amazing anyways we were there but you know this is where we're kind of looking for you know dinner or something we're walking around this little town and um we walk past this store and there's a bunch of mannequins like female mannequins and they're in these short shorts and on the name of on the back of like kind of the ass of these mannequins there's these little short shorts and they say things like property of Billy and property of Pete and property of Steve and property of Todd on the ass of these shorts on these mannequins and my son looked at this and he was like what is that and I had to kind of explain like well you know the idea is that the person would be wearing these short shorts and they're acknowledging that they're the property of whoever's name is on the ass of these pants and my son in the most rational way possible went blle that's like that's repulsive that's horrible and I said yes you are correct that's terrible that's awful you know and I had to stop and think a little bit and this really has more to do with probably obstacle number three like how you handle your life and how you think about your relationships and your connections with people which is obstacle number three but you know see and I as we were talking about this I had to say well you know when you really get down and you think about it this is of course a very crude obnoxious and repulsive version of this thought but I was saying yeah people kind of think of other people kind of being like their property they kind of do sure you know and it happens in lots of different ways it certainly happens in relationships like this it could happen with obstacle number two like you could think of your kids as your property but people think about people as property they really do and I kind of said it to my son and he was like BL and I was like yes you are correct son you know well phrased the black captures it you know and um I talked with you know I I'll talk my way through it and I'll get your opinions on this too Daniel but you know I was like talking about with different people and I talked to Ryan Davenport our Anthropologist on uh on call right and you know I saidwell what do you think about this there's an underlying way of viewing people as property that goes through like the whole culture and he was like yeah that's anthropologically how it is it's a very materialistic culture right and it has a lot of ways of thinking about property and a lot of ways of thinking about like human beings as property too right and you know this is one example in these relationship things but it's you know you can have other examples if you go through those obstacles you can see this is true too get the obstacle number four and you're talking about employees and work and people will look at you as property they will right it goes acoss the it's just part of the culture it's materialistic and property oriented and so you know it's a culture that thinks and talks that way and it's black right and I happen to be thinking about you know people in my life who I really know and love and I was thinking about the relationship aspect of this and just going you know what and this is in my you know after I talked to my son I had those kind of moments we were walking along a little bit more quietly right and I was thinking you know the thing about this and this is obstacle number three the relationship one but maybe you can find it in other ways too is that it's not just like on the back of those pants it's like your the person's body is your property is what you're saying in that right crude obnoxious over-the-top version but the psychology is underneath like that right people do think of that as property and that's part of what SAR vti hates she doesn't like people thinking about people as property and that was part of the anger behind it but there's a little bit more you know but as I was thinking it through you know with my son there I was like you know it's not really just people think of other people's bodies as their property when you really get deeper what you kind of get and the thoughts were kind of hitting me is people like think of everything being their property you know so you think of the other person's emotions being your property the other person's thoughts being your property the other person's life being your property and in a way you're also getting to the point where you're thinking of the other person's like spirit being your property or their soul people are very much kind of minded that way and you can see that you know in lots of different ways you certainly can see that in the relationship aspect that are kind of symbolically represented by the little short shorts right people think they own everything right and it's obnoxious and my son's response of like BL is like the correct response you know there's something pathological about that I agree and I took it back and I started talking with other people because normally I know I knew I was going to talk about it in these in this episode and I try to get feedback from people so I asked Ryan about it you know and he was like yeah it's part of the culture it's how the culture thinks it thinks about people as property whether it's a significant other in a relationship or in other situations too it can be your family doing it or whatever it is it's naming people as property right right and I was like yeah okay you agree and I checked in with like an old friend of mine you know she's also works with patients in her own way and I was asking her about this and she shared this story of a situation you know she has this long-term relationship and uh she said it was okay that I tell this so you know the relationship has its problems over the years you know um and she does doesn't you know want to be physically intimate with this person anymore even though they're a married couple she doesn't want to do do it you know they're not close it happens a lot it's a thing and uh she was going to take a run and she was wearing like a pair of you know kind of like running shorts or something or like biking shorts or something and her husband kind of like grabbed on the waistband of the shorts and tried to pull her you know towards him probably because she was just looking cute you know and she looked at him like what the [...] are you doing and he said you're my wife and then she had this moment like oh my God this guy's think about me in exactly this way like I'm like a piece of property for him or something right and it can go to the physical part and then the big striking thing for me which I hadn't thought about before is it sweeps through all of it actually you know because it goes through you know all of these aspects of the being of that person you know their emotions are yours their intellect is yours everything is yours you own them and um and it's it's it's it's black it's really black but it's part of how people think and you know during the retreat you know I was just feeling like the sparis vti anger of this you know that this is just wrong you know and I've had like other experiences like this with the Buddhist goddesses where they've tried to make this point to me you know and I haven't always shared it on the podcast in ways but you know this point has been made in different ways um and I've like in certain ways kind of run the experiment of this too we're going to do Karma mudra stuff which is the use of relationship potentially sexuality in connections between people for spiritual growth right and you know when you go through Karma mudra just as a preview of that you know you can see that they kind of talk about it on like different levels of connection between people that can be powerful right and we'll be doing some series of episodes going forward in the future about this right and they talk about you know it's interesting they talk about it in terms of like it could be two people smiling at each other and looking in each other in the eyes it could be two people holding hands it could be two people kissing it could be two people embracing in sort of more like sexual ways right they kind of give this little tearing and sometimes you'll see different ways in which that's described right but you know for the point of our podcast you know and talking about the way we were thinking about it you can have multiple ways of making connections with people that can be like karmically powerful right and certainly one of the ideas that I think we both share on this is we're interested in the tantas right and how you use connection and relationship for Spiritual energy right for a chemical change that's beneficial to everyone and I've actually even tried the experiment of it within this culture to say okay let's just we'll smile at each other or we'll have connection that isn't as intimate and you know we'll be it'll be okay you know we won't get involved into the complexities of you know even these more intense things and what you realize even that isn't possible in this culture right because uh you belong to someone in totality in this culture right you don't you're either fully owned or no right and that's how the culture thinks sure right I I feel like though so I hear what you're saying and you're saying is that like that your Vibe is that there's a there's a large form of kind of energetic resentment for this sense of possession personal possession of other beings right in in Su yeah and like the the I mean we're talking about Buddhist cont tantric energy and it doesn't like it right so it really doesn't like it and I'll say one thing about Daniel then I'll give you the floor sorry about this but my my point of this a little bit is that if you in that moment where you know that you can't be intellectually emotionally close to another person you know your property you know in that moment your property you should know it right I'll finish it Saras vati's thing is something like if you reason that through you should be able to know that right you are being framed as property or you're treating someone else's property and it's wrong you know and it pisses her off but the other thing she was saying that was so interesting that I wouldn't have had this thought is she was trying to say because she's a goddess of reason she was saying if you have that kind of thought within you uh uh it's wrong and you should know that by reason and that was the part that I probably wouldn't thought of myself at all right she was saying if you reason this through you can come to the conclusion that this is not right you know just by use of your reason and it's that part of the Asian cultural tradition where they're trying to explain yeah you can come to the reason at the end do the analysis use your reason and you would you can be able to see this you know whether you have any you don't have to look it up even in an old Buddhist book or find it in the Chinese scroll you can just do the analysis and if you find that that's the case somehow that's just wrong no matter what part of life you're talking about there's something toxic that yeah anyways so yeah I don't know I lost my I lost my I'm sorry dude I didn't mean to D yeah I mean it was like get to the I I get it I get it um yeah so okay so you're so that that's what you're saying you're just saying that that you you feel like you see it you felt it and you see it in existence and you believe that that is that is an not me I'm saying yeah no but but right no no but no but you saw it when you're walking with your son in terms of right the you're seeing in real life and that you feel that um people's energies need to be free and if they're going to work with other people in a in a kind of a spiritual manner that they can't be possession of someone other person that they should enter into it so moving beyond so taking what you're taking your insights taking the message and moving it then into like how can we how can we transmute that into something that we can say people to to give them some you know using reason right moving forward say okay if you have if you have found this to be a case and the case in your life right whether you're male female and you are being possessive or you are being possessed right you you found this to be the case you thought about it you're looking at it and you're like okay you know what this doesn't maybe this doesn't feel right you want to make a change but if we're going to approach it from the place of energy before form right so meaning that like there is a metaphysical quality to the power of our words to the intentionality of why it is that we are sharing this this is what I would like to this is what I'd like to finish with for me I think it would be that the most powerful Union are ones of free will because the the combined energies of the people in practice are free your will is still yours and you are choosing freely of your own accord cord to enter into a union of some type whether that Union be a Business Partnership whether that Union be uh tantric kind of you know sexual Union or whether that be a sort of you know meditative partner you know or or spiritual friend teacher student whatever it is people are going to have different attributes that fill in different gaps on other people's minds I do that for you you do that for me that's that's fine but there's a difference between filling in the gaps and someone trying to keep somebody else inside of a box and you were mentioning um people thinking that they own people's you know spirits and their mental emotional energy I agree but I don't even know if people think that deeply about it I think it stops with I think it stops with property of like oh you're my blank therefore I can do as I please do you know what I'm saying like and that's a toxic aspect of the culture I don't think I think they're more materialistic than not they're they're deeply materialistic so it doesn't go all the way because they might not even be aware that those people have those aspects to themselves but just to to finish my point I think that maintaining your own sense of Free Will and then bringing that together with another person's sense of Free Will and then forming a union based on this whatever that again whatever that relationship might be this is the most powerful kind of um position to work from whether you're starting a practice of any type um would be something to will be would be something to strive towards so sort of reclaiming as much of your autonomy as you can and then and then you choosing what to do with that that's kind of like the this is where my mind is moving towards yeah it's inter I guess we'll both talk through what we make out of it all I can say is something like I think like as far as the message I'm getting on this it's strong sure it's like if you go if you look inside and you find find that part of what's happening is this underlying psychology it's wrong it's a strong message you know and like as I was sitting there on the retreat I was like man this is like I mean I would I would certainly agree with those thoughts but it was like strong it was like a lot of force behind it like no and I've had it before kind of with one of the different Buddhist goddess things where they're like no what you have to understand is if you have this underlying thing you're going to create a [...] ton of what you would call claas in the Buddhist world right it's going to create all kinds of negative mindsets right and in you know kind of like uh Buddhist thought you know you have the five major energies or the five major phases you know elements that make up the body and they each have a claycia with them we've done this other times before right but you know possessiveness jealousy and envy is the claure that has to do with the Wind energies and um greed and those kinds of possessive feelings had to do with the water energies and toxic attachment has to do with the fire energies anger comes out of these things you'll get a lot of angry behavior that come out of this kind of stuff and then you know ignorance is right because the whole thing is kind of based on an ignorance right like all I can say is you was doing these meditations some years back and this blanged into my head like see do you see this you know this underlying way of thinking is going to create a ton of claa you know no matter what part of life you're talking about if you think you own your kids if you think you own your partner if you think you own any of these things and what you might find if you analyze it further is that you really do think that you own them because you're making demands of all of them you're not Le they don't have the space to do these other things right you know and you find that maybe you're looking at your kid and you're like you're thinking of them as your property and you realize you're you feel on sub subconscious level that you own all of this stuff or the way you're treating them has that effect and like all I can say is like s fanti was like no strong no stop this stop thinking this way right I'm getting emotional because I can feel the energy of it you know when the treat it was like strong it wasn't [...] around it was serious yeah you know so then so then what is the so then what is the uh you know what's the what is the takeaway what is the conclusion other than that's not good you know what is the movie what is the what's the alchemical kind of um seed of awareness that you can share based on I I mean what more can you say stop it right stop thinking this way right but what if you're not thinking that way and you're on the other side well then your behavior will change you'll treat people differently right but what if you're the one who is in what if you're the one wearing the possess what if you're the one wearing uh property of Matthew on your ass well then you have to stop that from that the goddesses want you to stop that from that side too take those [...] shorts off what if you're not aware take those short shorts off rip them up toss them in the trash don't do that anymore well what if you're not aware of that well that's what I'm talking about it right but how would you how would is trying to scream about this how would one become aware of that I don't know I mean I'm telling you now so if you don't hear these words I don't know but you'd have to go through and really look and say okay am I in a situation where this is how I'm being treated you know but I mean it's I I know what to say it's like it's strong as if it came out of a burning bush sure howling saying stop these ways of thinking yeah yeah and when you really get to a lot of these these um obstacles this kind of stuff is lurking behind a lot of that stuff right you know either you're thinking yourself as being possessed by your family or possessed by a significant other or possessed by something right you know and uh or you you are in some level trying to do that to somebody else and and we can I mean you're asking me this question of what to do all I can say is I'm telling you that this is the message okay so it starts it starts with awareness it starts with the awareness of that I suppose and then I mean we could take you could trace that through a lot you know you might have to you know if you have to challenge your family or challenge a partner or challenge the way you're being thought of in some other place you might have to do that but what what they're kind of saying is that this is a psychological problem that's like sweeping and it has to go sure you know I'm like yeah I thinking about doing the episode is like okay I'll do the best to try to say this fa yeah no I understand I think I think maybe the I think get you know the only thing the only thing I could say is that you have to start with yourself and if you start with yourself in terms of the way that you view others and things and if you work on your own level of possessiveness right your own level of of ownership if you will then you might be aware of that in others because I mean at at the end of the day all that we can do is begin with us we begin with us the work has to you know start and stop with us and our interaction with reality right because without that I can't if I don't even know that I'm doing it I might not be aware that other people are doing it but if I can use my awareness and use this conversation to say okay oh [...] maybe I do that with a blank you know with my dog or with a friend or with a you know have expectations you know attachments to their out to an outcome that I believe I should be able to control then that might be detrimental to to our relationship and therefore you know I could be the sort of seed for change in my own mind to see if I am on the other side of that you know Vin diagram for somebody else I mean it's interesting you know we can see whether you know you when you and I talk about this as two people Dialogue on this whether we agree on this even or not you know as to the seriousness of the problem but it was interesting for me like being in this Retreat mode of going like wow there's a lot of force behind this thought you know and the thought is like getting really down to the root of like saying like no this has to stop down to the point where you know you think you possess the Earth and you're gonna trans it's like going down to the like they're saying no stop this [...] thing stop yeah you know because you're gonna it's gonna it's destructive it's toxic it has to go yeah I agree and it's like and like it's a weird it was a weird experience you know and I trying to go like okay you know do you want me to talk do you want me to talk about this Saras spotti and she's like talk try to say something about this just to get the point across like like popping this you know yeah yeah I understand uh but it's it was it was strong and I was like I know this isn't even I mean I don't like this stuff I mean anyone who knows me like I don't like these attitudes but it was wasn't even my feeling it was like there's something a lot stronger behind this you know and I suppose as a a Buddhist tantric person I'm going to be in line with a lot of these ideas these are Buddhist tantric divinities but it was like the force of it was like strong it had like a understand you know like a a forceful Fierce aspect and like stop bullshitting around about it you know like really look at this and go this is wrong you know like this thing has to go it's not a small point and it was interesting because I I did ask other folks about this a little bit you know talked a little bit about with Ryan talked a little bit about with this other old friend of mine and she was like yeah no this is serious problem yeah you know and because and because these claes are at the root of so many things she said it very succinctly she was like the little transmitter of Buddhist you know goddess energy in that moment she's a tantri person too and she said you know um this is why so many things go bad you know at the root it's like a toxicity like at the bottom yeah you know so anyways all right I did my you did it you did it you definitely and yeah we all can process it in our own way but you know that that was the thing got yeah yeah yeah all right well there you have it yeah yeah yeah it's interesting yeah awesome well uh we got your message out so hopefully that'll be heard by some folks and uh you know we'll uh we'll continue on yeah yeah yeah thank you sarati yeah you know she is strumming away yep and thanks you my friend for riding on the ship with me and thanks to our listeners for uh tuning in hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com uh leave a like comment subscription if you'd like on the uh on the YouTube channels you know we don't hit anybody up so if you feel free to uh share our work with folks we definitely appreciate the shoutouts and uh you know all the love that we get from folks uh hit us up on Instagram if you'd like to uh send us a DM or just you know like whatever one of our posts uh the Jin and Tona podcast and we'll uh you know we'll see youall around we appreciate everybody's uh you know time and effort and energy tuning in what we do uh this is a labor of love so you know we appreciate the love back and uh for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]