foreign those of us who like our spirituality with the twist I'm still laughing from the [...] we were talking here about beforehand um all right we're back uh we're trying to continue our conversation from last week um I said what I think is maybe the only thing that's ever gonna feel really controversial to me in a personal way on this particular podcast but it's really part of our relationship series and stuff that's like really kind of personal so it's kind of the Capper on this whole thing yeah last last week I titled the episode non-conformist relationships so for those who haven't heard that one yet you can listen to it man if not you're here that's good I should probably like because I am working towards an understanding of this for myself and it's what we do so for me what I really talked about was I think it's uh I think it's fine that people can feel all kinds of varieties of love and being in love I don't think there's anything wrong with feeling that you love more than one person I don't think you have to feel guilty about that I don't think you have to feel bad about that it's not obvious what you want to do about that you know you have your own ethics you have your own relational situation some of those relationships might be just very close platonic relationships and some of them might be something that's more but you know and it opens up a whole big set of questions but that's what I was trying to bring up and I was also trying to bring up something about kind of like I guess the metaphysics of it in a way which for me is and I've been working towards this kind of myself so these are important episodes for me thank you all for letting me blah blah uh for people who are listening but for me it was like I really look at the world in this way that we're kind of in this Enlightenment Factory space and we have these people that we're going to meet that are probably going to be very very spiritually close to us in a variety of ways probably in all kinds of roles relevant relative to us family friends kids loved ones uh people that we love people that we're in love with and they're kind of our kind of karmic soul mates I don't see it in a new agey way but I do see it in a kind of a spiritually transformative Way New Age you might be like we all got together beforehand and made a bunch of plans around like some Grand like uh you know we're all in an office and we're in front of some big like whiteboard yeah they offering everything I don't think it's like that no they'll talk about it kind of like we're all and then we are but like we're actors in each other there's plays you know there's all these plays going on and we have various roles in that's somewhat true but I get the feeling sometimes they say that we're all sitting around designing a script like well right yeah that will break my heart over here and then I'll break Susie's heart and then the next thing you know show me uh Chad and you know I don't think that's that scripted like that personally I don't see it through that yeah no and I think that that also like leads into someone's beliefs about like faith not Faith but faith you know yeah being like fate is like it's all predetermined or most of a lot of it is predetermined and I don't I don't take that view personally because then to me fate and Free Will are absolutely Polar Opposites and I don't and I think that we are at least me you know and probably yourself are working towards a space of Freedom you know Freedom of Choice freedom of reaction freedom of response freedom of being and if something is faded already then you don't so then you're only working towards the flow of Faith the intention of of faith and I'm not sure that you know that's a thing but I will say in that book uh the light that shines through Infinity uh dining category did say something that I thought was like quite genius or brilliant or you know whatever came from a deep place is that he said at many times when he is sitting in in zazen that he is making the attempt to connect with the intention of the of the Creator or of the universe itself and I think that that does have a kind of a dowesty Chinese Japanese Vibe but I can understand that feeling yeah and even saying it like even for our new age friends yeah I was kind of teasing but I don't judge it I mean I definitely have had students who have this point of view and I'm like okay cool I get it yeah you got the point of view and you know I'll support your point of view that was another big thing in the episode last week which is like okay if we could stop judging each other sure you know and uh uh so anyways I didn't mean to sound that's not my intention to sound that way I was just teasing and you were being serious about Zen so yeah I think there is something to that though that feeling that you can kind of feel like well this is the proper flow for these events or something right yeah but you can either I guess feel local on the ground you know in the immediate or you might feel like oh there's a big overlaw over overriding flow and I'm trying to work within that or something I could see all of that really um so because that was what really I was trying to talk about with this and I had like sort of in my own life multiple people who sort of um inspired these kinds of thoughts I certainly referenced Rumi last week because he's a big person for me we talked a little bit about Rumi and shamsa Tabriz and their relationships which may not have been sexual at all right and some of Jung's relationships that were whatever they were it's not obvious but you know certainly uh with Sabina spill Ryan one of the main people it's certainly not obviously they were in what way they were physical with one another you know but it was there was an intimacy there yeah but she describes it as like poetry right but I'm saying but like more like Eros and intimacy but maybe not like just like sex no no I'm not talking about I'm not getting yeah not not intimacy from like the physical perspective but like energetically emotionally yeah that's right it's treated as a a near primary or close to primary relationship like the way that I kind of am sort of growing into this idea is that you are able to have another person as a means of satiating your immune system you know like do you feel deeply safe around this person safe to express deeper aspects of yourself that you may not to somebody else and this you know you brought this up last week with the Esther perel view of this which was I think unique um yeah uniqueness orientation versus what she was describing it more of like an exclusiveness orientation and I thought that was really important yeah for me to get out there yeah and then like the unique orientation or the exclusive orientation will be people who are just you know feeling how did you say it like people who feel like the the their bond is isn't their bond is deep because it's bonded with that person like and that's I think it's the exclusivity of it is what gives it the Special quality for that kind of person right right yeah right and then the unique the unique one is that like each individual relationship has its own unique qualities and you can have multiple unique relationships simultaneously or in your lifetime it's not you don't see it only as this one only one that's it yeah and you don't it doesn't feel like it's a threat because it underdoes and undermine for that uniqueness person their feeling of that relationship being special unique and so on yeah for the more exclusive minded person that would ruin it for them yeah whether that's a physical thing or a lot of times even an emotional thing they don't want other people to even be emotionally close past a certain point because that would kind of ruin it for them yeah you know yeah yeah you know I like to look at things from like a physical body part you know and I and I just feel like there's a there's a comfort that we have with certain people in our lives that we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with them you know sometimes physically vulnerable in a you know in that kind of a way but then also emotionally vulnerable or psychically vulnerable but both both aspects of vulnerability physical and you know psycho emotional if you want to call it that have a level of openness to them that you trust the other person that you feel safer on the other person that you can let your guard down you know that you're not you know you're you don't have your defenses up right we talked about this like some months ago right the ego system yeah yeah the existential Guardian operating system your phrase for that yeah and that you're you're down those defenses are down and I didn't come up with a little acronym for Eros because I was looking at some stuff with Eros yeah existential whatever you want to do with that yeah you know uh people have that review of systems though because that'd be too medical yeah well but you know but I'm just saying like people have this this like deeply open sensation and it's just interesting from like a mental physical view of how someone would want to be that way with only one person and how that Bond can be very unique and very deep and then how some person can have various aspects of openness with multiple other people and be in that state of openness with not only one but with several you know if that's you know it's just it's just interesting for me to think about now yeah Esther perel doesn't talk about them as orientations exactly but I think that that was a good word for my mind it seems like it's just different ways of approaching life yeah what I found impressive like we talked about last week is that she also uses this language that you could tell it's really from We're clinicians you know in our life right and you could like she's really talk with people because she's using their language yeah you know when we have to go through the whole thing again but the idea of like boundaries and borders are really important but those exclusiveness people where freedom uh freedom to express that's the uniqueness vocabulary they use a different lingo a different language I think it's I think it's good so for me it was sort of like a kind of I want to tell the story of love and how I got to this kind of feeling um but you know it came from people like you know uh Todrick Masters Zen Masters Rumi Jung aspects of this um what was interesting last week we were talking about it is and we'll get back to it because I think those are both important was you were talking about things more from like a sociantological sociological anthropological point of view which is really important but it was also like I wanted to also talk about like sort of like the existential psychospiritual experiential point of view so we're going to balance these things out in this conversation there's a lot of big words being valid back and forth here oh we're gonna we're gonna go there'll be big words flying exclusiveness uniqueness existentialism who the [...] knows where this is going to go we are a girlless pair yes yes the the the big wheel keeps on turning and no one knows where it's going to stop in the in the g t podcast world I like I like when I when I host with other people you're not here I always say I don't know what I'm doing you know we're gonna I don't know what's happening you are Mr improv that is so true I do love improvisation I never know what you're gonna say so I'm always like I gotta write 17 responses I know what this freaking Daniel's gonna say but I like my music that way too and I like that that's you know I love sponsors no it's part of you who you are you have that spontaneous spontaneous part of who you are it's fun and we just I said like you know we had this tacit agreement in these conversations that were we both will have areas of interest and whatever we're talking about and we we kind of go in these very different in whatever interests are important for us yeah so we did the Esther parole we got the uniqueness and and uh um you and exclusiveness kind of orientations and yeah it was so sort of funny about this I guess the next thing to talk about is really in the whole thing okay let me say one thing real quick about this because there was the whole thing of like where does this come from was the question you were asking yeah but the only thing I wanted to say about and I think we should talk about that yeah but the only thing that really hit me about that especially if you want to do this in a non-judgmental way is like it's here regardless of for sure how it got here and what the reasons were it's here and essentially this is a very like exclusiveness oriented society that we live in in America and probably you know judeo-christian Society Jude jail Christian Islamic society is very exclusiveness oriented what entirely that means is really interesting I'm doing a lot of This research on Jung and he sees this connection with the religion in ways too you know um so there's lots of things you could talk about with that sure you know it was a little bit so I realized after we got off the last episode it was like it really depends on who you ask where this came from I have a perspective you have a perspective we're looking at from a certain Vantage but for other people they might say well because God said so or Allah said so or had and I said so that's an answer right we both know people who feel that way for sure right and it's not like I don't want to respect that point of view you know some people might say evil evil psych things evolutionary psychology things I don't agree with that pretty much either but you know there are people who would talk that way I was a little bit nervous because though this is such a societal Norm this episode made me nervous to talk about a little bit you know and I'll share my own experiences but that's why I had trepidation about it and I talked to different people before you know we did this I talked with you obviously I talked with other people it's like we're gonna do this episode and but maybe the only subject that I felt nervous about because it's such a core idea sure you know it's so core to the culture uh our girl Esther perel talks about this and one of the you know because I've been doing work on the subject matter and she brings this up she says it's really interesting in American culture she's from Belgium right so you said the American culture this is like the big thing and other cultures people don't want to do uh like divorce as much they want to keep the family unit together right the American culture decided divorce is the thing you do right especially yeah and so we're a litigation culture too though yeah I think that's right you know what I'm saying so like that's a big business oh like it's true yeah I mean like that's true I put my business head on they're like there's a lot of people who are miserable and we could definitely make a lot of money off of them so I'm going to be lawyers we're gonna get 10 to 15 of this deal yeah yeah I mean my I could just speak true my parents you know got started a divorce proceedings when I was probably about seven or eight and they had a property that they sold uh in late the late 80s and uh they made a lot of money on this building like a lot of money and they spent all of it fighting each other oh all of it like that would have been that would have paid for college for sure even if it invested it did nothing left it in the bank and just collected interest it would have paid for mine and my brother's college for sure but they spent it in court yeah it's really weird because in the extended group of people I know there's lots of people who are going through divorces now you know and like the financial aspects are brutal obviously when you see it it is brutal yeah yeah it raises weird I mean well I guess we'll come back to it why does this society decide this one way or another but she poses the question and it's an interesting one because she says a lot of societies will say no we're going to keep the family units together even if there's elements of people being involved with other adults okay you acknowledge that happens and you keep the family unit together that seems to be the Tibetan answer too yeah but certainly what's weird to me about it too is like I'm a I'm a Zen Taoist tantric Buddhist person my worldview is different you know so I'll try to explain why this is but I'll try to talk a little bit my own backstory I had one other little quick thing before we do the super personal part which I thought you would find interesting which was I talked to the Buddhist goddesses about this oh good and it was interesting so this is just like maybe the meditative part we want to do a little meditative stuff here and there for people so Carl Jung has this idea he calls active imagination which is kind of like an inner journeying technique you know he has that real shamanic part of him you know that we all both of us find super interesting but it has a kind of a deep tradition like there's Rebbie uh nachman who would just say like well just talk to God that's a meditative technique talk with God so you just start talking and then you kind of see what's produced out of that and it looks like Jung was tapping into similar ideas he would go through and he would just Journey inside of himself he did a lot of visualizations sort of hypnagogic States you know so he tried to get in these kind of Altered States and then he would talk to these figures that would appear who certainly felt to him like they were he always says funny about that is this part of my own psyche and archetype or is it some other force of the universe I'm talking to that's personifying it in this way but uh he had like someone who identified inside of him as sort of a gnostic philosopher from Alexandria back in the past we called Philemon and we talked about this a little bit last week he did these inner Journeys yeah and so I kind of did I do this as a summer part of my practice it's interesting Gala grimpachet uh you know passed away one of our teachers would say like do that talk and see what happens and it's really interesting because I did talk and there's like kind of three main practices I do and it was an interesting experience for me Daniel because I talked and I said well should I talk about these things should I try to write this book should I try to do these things around this and I thought I would get a chorus of answers like they would all agree it's like one big chorus would tell me what they thought but actually it turned out no they all said different things and I was like this is so interesting you know and it probably and they didn't say what I would expect even which I suppose was part of Jung's experience when you when you have these experiences of connecting in this way whatever that is you're connecting to may say things that surprise you and it's something I think that you think about Daniel that sort of tells you it's not coming from your own ego it's coming from something else do you agree with that General framework yeah oh yeah so I got three different answers for one of my main practices I kind of usually check in with her when I'm doing a divination or whatever and her answer was really interesting and she said well and I was surprised she basically says I don't know if this really matters one way or the other Ah that's good value if you do this or don't do this in the sense that she was saying your job in this lifetime is to try to get enlightened maybe this will impact your being to be able to like progress on that maybe it won't maybe it's just not going to do that so you can do it if you think it has meaning to you she was kind of communicating but you know it's kind of up to you at this point but the main thing I'm she was saying I'm trying to tell you the main thing was that you need to work on your Enlightenment practices and you and you know that's the more important thing and so whether you do this or not okay but as long as you're doing this other thing that's the more important thing and I was like okay I didn't expect an answer you know then I talked with Tara goddess Tara and she was like yes do it and I felt this wave of kind of her energy which is kind of soft and compassionate you know and her attitude seemed to see it seemed to be something like yes this is an act of compassion that you're doing this and other people may benefit from hearing this in their own ways whatever it means to them so you should do this and I was like okay and that the way I got it and this is a little bit maybe my thoughts as much I was like well there might be people who have specific questions about love and relationship like I do and they're asking things that are similar but kind of what we've been talking about over the episodes maybe it's just they feel conflict in some other part of their lives it doesn't have to do with this but hearing people talk about these points of where they're trying to figure these things out where there is conflict between themselves and the outer World especially the outer social world can be useful so there's a big wave of like yes so I was like okay I've gotten two different answers here my first real uh set of um contract teachings I got was from the Buddhist goddess of love like the Buddhist Cupid and you'd be like there's a Buddhist Cupid yeah there is and from her it was a real solid like yes you do this do this you know very strong yes and I was like okay and then I was like kind of going like well why and she was like sort of more in like the vehement-ness with which she said yes was that there's a a way now where there has to be New Visions of what love means now this is the time for now and even if like are recording this we're not going to change the society through this recording we were talking about that last week you know we're not going to like all of a sudden we're going to go to the like The Joe Rogan levels and everyone's going to like change their mind about these things because we're talking about this but she was kind of like it has to be out there in the environment new ways of thinking about this have to be out there does that make sense to you too [Music] so it was sort of like different answers and I didn't get the I got like different Counterpoint or something different layers of Music on top of another but not all the same answer so anyways I thought that was kind of interesting right so I know anything about that practice more that you want to add before we move on I mean you do things like that I was kind of sharing my own experience with it anything else you want to share about that uh no I mean I think it's just you know for people who are listening and if they're like the [...] is he talking about you know um wouldn't be the first time right wouldn't be the first time but I I think the only thing I would like to say really is that like it's good to have your own internal source of inspiration right whether that be via Buddhist goddesses or we'll let's just call it inner Divinity we'll just call it like this you know or whether that be some kind of like philosopher that lives inside of you you know or whether it be an architect however however it is or Jesus or Muhammad I mean whoever it does that's not a crazy idea to think that you're doing that no it's not it's not and and related but not related I had a a patient of mine who I haven't seen for a while because they had a health issue that they had to have surgery for and whatnot and they were he was explaining how he had this like huge kind of like um fist or something at the bottom of his spine that kind of like oh yeah erupted and he said as soon as that thing broke his back pain that he had been dealing with for a few months disappeared yeah I could say and when he spoke right we as as Chinese medicine practitioners we get it but I haven't seen him for a couple months yeah so he came in today said he was talking with his doctors about it and they were like that's not related they're not related but when I talked to him about like Chi and the different channels things like this he goes see I knew I was right and and so I bring that I say that story to bring it back to this because a lot of times we are and we can take external kind of information and try to bring it bring it in and break it down and make it our own but like ultimately we have to rely on our own choice at the end of it all we are the ones who make the decision to do something to not do something or whatever and if you have a system of like internal checks or internal inspiration that you can go towards that gives you a large feeling of empowerment I mean at the end Eric you have to decide am I going to do XYZ write the book talk about this story you know in an open way in a public forum or whatever you have the final decision but you can feel very empowered in your decision and then the results that come from it because you're like I am making this decision with all of my like strongest inputs all behind me one way or another and I feel like I have all the pertinent information that I have it's time to go forward with this so I just wanted to emphasize that particular point you know I mean I think as far as a practice goes if you've asked me back when I was a physics major at UFC or something that I'm going to sit in a room and like like in my imagination talk to a Buddhist goddess I would be like what the [...] are you talking about right so I'm not like I don't know what to say about some of that like I'm a I don't know I'm a Midwestern like south side of Chicago person we don't sit around talking to Buddhist goddesses unfortunately a White Sox fan that's just arable [...] disaster to get like recommendation from the goddesses for all of that like you know rituals and like yeah yeah apologies to our International audience who don't give a [...] about baseball but Eric doesn't either so it's fine do you know I love the White Sox and they're in a strange like masochistic way yeah um it's because you watch sports as a kid I'm sure everyone like in other countries will be like I always grew up watching whatever the whatever their team was football team is and yeah the soccer team in your particular range you're like they're in agony so that's what the White Sox are they're Perpetual agony um then one year they win and then it'll be another 80 years um uh no anyway so it's one of those things so as far as a practice goes as weird as it sounds this is what rebe knockman was talking about just maybe get yourself quiet at some point start vocalizing your thoughts and see what your mind produces back and on some level if it's really you think it's only just your imagination then you're tapping into some other part of yourself you know some collective unconscious part of who you are that maybe tell you different things you can you certainly can think of it that way you don't have to get too metaphysical with that you're tapping into other parts of your own imagination or maybe if you do feel like no I'm tapping into some other aspect of even outside of myself you know I think Jung came to that conclusion ultimately yeah but uh you don't have to you know you can think of this in different ways but it's an interesting meditative practice yeah I probably learned something when I teach the shamanic course which will probably be next year again I'll make announcements for that um people have a very difficult time believing what it is that they see when they're when they're journeying you know and there's a number of my friends and and former current students who are listening to this so hello everybody uh particularly Angie hello Angie I know you I know you'll hear that and smile when you hear it but like people have a very difficult time when you know they have to go get some information or learn something you know from a guide if you want to call them that when they're when they're doing their meditation or their Journey again however you want to label it's fine and this very question comes up am I making it up or is it coming to me and what I like to say to people is that like in the end it doesn't matter if the information is pertinent so I feel like you know what do we say a long time like regularly like the teachings are antique but the teachers are contemporary and so if the information is pertinent and it's communicated to you via something that you are familiar with you might be more accepting of that information or maybe you'll be more accepting of that information if it's absolutely completely abstract and you're like I could not have made that up therefore it must be more real because I could make it up because you don't trust your own psyche for some reason either way it's there for you so you might as well take the opportunity to be to shut the [...] up you know and and listen and see what you hear because you don't know you know and if you already had the answer then you wouldn't be seeking out further you know support or denial for what you're trying to do yeah I mean it's weird for me because I really expect all three of these beings in my own imagination or in the universe at large yeah like speak as a chorus I expect it to just be like okay we're all going to harmonize together and say the same thing but they have different perspectives yeah I think this was young experience with these archetypes he was like I wouldn't have thought of it that way maybe some part of him did and he was tapping to that part or maybe he was tapping into something else but um you know uh you'll hear maybe hear things that you didn't expect right so yeah all right so okay and the really really personal side and then you know I'll probably share some of my personal stuff and Daniel will share whatever he feels like he wants to share too um for me my first encounter with Ewing came back at University of Chicago we talked about this maybe some episodes ago yeah and it was in a class on um personality and the guy who was teaching a class was a Dr James Anderson I remembered his name so long because I had the reader and I still kept it and actually used it like articles in it to prepare even notes and things for classes I can't find it now so I gotta like dig it up and find where it is because I got a little bit of news on this Daniel I actually looked this dude up okay online and he's still in Chicago oh Dr Anderson from UFC I wasn't sure if even still alive but he's still around and kicking and I think what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make an appointment with him yeah and just go say Hey you know you influenced me a lot in this class I want to talk you with about this thing apparently his one of his big interests is like is like a psychobiography he likes to write psychological biographies of people I was like okay I'm trying to do one so I think I might just make an appointment and like go and talk with him even if I have to pay him some money for a clinical appointment I'd be curious to see because it was a strange thing that happened in the class so basically what happened was he was talking about young and there's lots of things you can say about young because his life was really interesting but then he told this anecdote because he knew someone who knew young personally Henry Murray this famous psychologist we could talk about Henry Murray in the other episode doesn't matter for us now but he traveled to go meet young yeah we did talk about and the idea was ultimately they talked about sort of psychological theory for a week and then eventually young like they were out on his boat on like Zurich apparently he would take patients sometimes out in the boat too and they would just have their sessions on the boat out in nature one year so there are other things you can do that yeah they're out on the boat and they're you know young as an older guy at this point and he eventually was like well why are you here and uh Henry Murray admitted like well I'm in love with two people I don't know what to do and young said okay I understand and then this is how I solve this problem in my life people will solve this in different ways and he just made recommendations to him he said well sometimes you can be in love with two people and if you can work the relationship out maybe that's fine you know and I think Henry Rory went back relieved and then I think he did do that he had two people who loved him in that way and that's how the story ended but it was such a weird thing in the class I don't think I ever heard anyone tell a story like that in class before so it really struck me I was like ha you know it wasn't like it was so um it was so personal and so different I don't know if you've had this experience too you know it's just one of those things and you're under a class you don't expect to hear that you know what I'm saying or you agree or disagree I don't know no I mean that's the beauty of Education yeah it was such a personal story that had to do with him knowing this guy to share this anecdote that I probably never would have heard and a lot of books about Jung didn't have that information nobody knew that back when I was at school and so when I was reading his stuff I could always have that with kind of in the back of my mind because he explained a lot about Jung's life you know and these more personal aspects of Young's life too because he wound up like um having this woman he was involved with two Tony wolf and he had like sort of like these two women in his life for like four decades so you know it's an intense part of his life and his experience and that allowed me to see his work in a different way anyways that happened as a student at UMC this undergrad Now by a weird Twist of synchronicity and I was trying to remember even the order of this how these events played out I mean I must have heard I must have heard the Dr Anderson thing first before this other event happened but this is the personal story for me so I'm an undergrad I had my first love we had known each other since we were probably I think I was 18 when we met um I was sick as a teenager so this was the first big love I had it took a while you know I was had a lot of health problems when I was in my teens there's kind of no doubt that we really loved each other Susie my first big love I had mentioned her name a little bit earlier I realized Freudian slip um but um I think we'd be fair to say at the time we were both kind of troubled people you know we weren't fully foreign beings yet so we had a fiery relationship we would argue but we also had kind of like a deep connection between the two of us probably the first of my feeling of like okay this is a romantic soulmate relationship this is something real is happening here uh we all had these we all have our own stories around this obviously but for this particular thing relevant to this um the main episode begins where now we've been together for some years we were in our 20s early 20s she was going to DePaul University in Chicago and I was going to University of Chicago we met at her dorm a lot of the time we were in actually the first floor of the dorm I don't live that far away from it so I think I drove past it today where this event happened but we were sitting there and she's like I don't remember how she started even the conversation but she said it was obviously something important she wanted to talk about and she basically said well here's what I think needs to happen I love you I don't want to lose you and I want to be with you but we haven't had enough experience with other people so I think we're going to have to have some kind of relationship where we're able to be together but we have experience with other people too and I remember just going what is she talking about what you know and I had never heard anyone say anything like this before in this direct way retrospectively speaking thinking about it for talking about this yeah I loved her and I still respect her and she just was like I don't know what else to do let me propose this thing I know it sounds crazy but how about this because I don't want to lose you and yet the idea that we haven't had enough experience is eating away at me on some level and I think I said something like well let's take a vote and see if the motion passes you vote Yes I vote no motion doesn't pass and then she said something like no I think this motion is going to have to pass and I really had to think about it you know and I think even sitting there was like well maybe I have to maybe this has to happen because I did love her but it really got my mind turning in a kind of a different way which is very Aquarian person new ideas out of her own Noggin and I think the thing that I remember thinking about a lot was like George Harrison from the Beatles I grew up listening to The Beatles I think the Beatles are really good so people like them some people hate them but I think they're good I know their story you know so and the real story with George Harrison was that you know Eric Clapton the guitar player George Harrison they were best friends Eric Clapton fell in love with like George Harrison's wife Hattie Boyd Harrison so I knew this whole backstory and what it always impressed me about it was uh George Harrison like had to be in this situation where publicly he had to say okay um I love both of these people he's my best friend he she's this woman that I love and I think she kind of realized this relationship is ending it's not really working between us so but it's like publicly potentially embarrassing he's a beetle you know when um when Martin Scorsese did the movie of his life George Harrison this big documentary they showed scenes of George Harrison having to answer questions about this you know in public people going up to him saying well you know Eric Clapton your best friends now with your wife how do you what do you think about that he had to answer these questions you know uh and it was a whole big drama I mean that Eric Clapton song Layla is written about George Harrison's wife it's like the trivia of that song right so he had this you know whatever this is deep love for this his best friend's wife he sings about it you know so it's a crazy situation but was always striking by George Harrison for me is he took this very idealistic Road and he just said well I love these two people if I'm really true that I believe that I'm gonna have to accept both of them right right so I'm going to keep him as my best friend and he did right and he kept a good relationship with her you know and uh he accepted it in this very public way and I was always very impressed with that I guess even as a teenager or something I was like wow look at look at that you know this guy really stuck to his principles or stuck to his beliefs he valued love he sung all these [...] songs about love with the Beatles and he did it you know it wasn't just I want to hold your hand or something you know he really like he took the higher Road and I was very impressed with it so in this experience with Susan I was like okay well if I really believe that I love her and plus I knew she was right I mean I knew what she was feeling it wasn't like I didn't you know I was on a different campus from her and you know you'd find yourself on the campus making eyes with someone in the library and you'd be like okay it's not like she's wrong I know the feeling and so I was like okay I'm gonna have to back her play on this and so I did and I basically said okay uh I'm in let's do this thing uh in the way you're talking about and I remember it got to her first time where she was gonna go out with somebody else and you know Chicago this the way the layout of the city she was gonna go I went to I went to University of Chicago but I lived in a different neighborhood unfortunately I lived near the White Sox stadium depressing the most bummer part of this whole story I could see whenever the White Sox would shoot fireworks if they hit a home run you know uh we could see it from our window but how often would they hitting home runs very rarely so we got practically no [...] fireworks but in any case I lived around that neighborhood well you know like a drive from University of Chicago but it turned out the guy that she was going out with was in that same neighborhood for that first date of hers and I was like okay so she was gonna go take the train down there in the night and I was like you can't go doing that like you know you might not get back to super late I don't want you riding on the subway in the night I'll be super worried about you no and that wasn't even obviously we're gonna she was gonna have sex with him or something but you know who knows when she's gonna get back and I was like I don't want you doing that it'll be dangerous you got to take my car she didn't own a car at the time so I was like okay take my car just do this thing and I'm gonna support you and what struck me I was going through the memories of this and what really struck me is I remember we had like this very kind of passionate scene between the two of us uh young lovers and we were like in the shower together and we kind of like made love in the shower before she was going out on this date as people do in that romantic way I think what made it so impassioned was really that she felt this freedom um she felt free and it relieved this huge thing on her and then I think the reason why she felt like so emotional towards me and grateful for me in that moment was that I mean I knew her really well and she was okay she feels free to do what she needs to do and so I in a certain sense this is the uniqueness proposition I suppose it was giving her that gift of this freedom so so she went out and I can remember like pacing around the apartment like holy [...] this is stressful as [...] it wasn't like it was like I was totally fine with everything from the beginning and you know I had certainly moments you know but um uh ultimately the experience is kind of built I got one other one kind of the share about this a little bit around this unless you have something you want to say about it too Daniel okay so I had like ultimately I do talk about this with students but I don't really ever like give up the content of the memory but my most powerful memory then is this built the most powerful memory I had with my psychologist Mentor Dr Michael schner like another person I'm really grateful for was um I had gotten to the point ultimately and I'll talk about more how this built for me but I got to the point for me like after that experience a lot of things were just like gone maybe I should even talk about this actually because it's like I was going to talk about how this felt to me all right maybe I better do this for this to make some sense so um for me what did I feel and not feel I better like kind of talk about that a little bit so looking back I had moments where I could have handled things better I'm not going to say I did everything perfect but everything's not bad you know and it was a learning experience for me I wanted to talk about the feeling like did I feel but I was a young person did I feel cocked or like I was a simp and the answer was no ultimately um I had moments where I had feelings I had to deal with but I mean in the Deep level for me I knew what she was saying was true you know and I think the feeling of being honest about it was like stronger than any of those feelings you know I was like no what she's saying is true she's right I can understand why I should feel this way I empathize with why she would feel this way she's not wrong you know we love each other a lot but we haven't had this experience of the world it's going to be something that's going to hang I look she's right you know she's right and I and she's going to need the freedom to do this so that she can kind of know who she is and even have feel comfortable with what we were doing between the two of us so I had a lot of the similar thoughts there was like an old Seinfeld episode where Kramer's gonna break up with someone and then she breaks up with him first and then he's completely like screwed because he spends the whole rest of the episode begging her to come back it's a big bit he was like damn it if I just would have broken up with her first because I had a lot of the same thoughts going on you know I knew what she was feeling but I thought okay so this is like she's not wrong I get it now in Zen they had this thing they call Shugo which is like intense training they kind of describe it as like uh the kind of thing where you're doing a Metallurgy to a sword and you just beat the [...] out of the metal and you just really work it so in a certain sense when I learned Zen later on I realized like well this was a kind of an emotional Shugo for me this whole set of experiences it put me through this major transformative thing that was intense especially obviously things around maybe possessiveness or jealousy which you know whatever the feelings I had about that which were complicated but they essentially went like through those things and the weird thing for me in the end Daniel which I guess I've been trying to get to the share with this is the fact by the end of it it was just gone it just like burnt those feelings away and I just didn't have them anymore and um when I got more into the Buddhist framework it changed the way I thought about like the clashes which are the kind of negative Buddhist emotions and I have talked with the Buddhist goddesses about this too and I was like okay well I just illuminate a couple cliches just for people yeah yeah I'll go through it yeah I've talked with the Boost glasses about these clashes and there's like really supposed to be five of them right there's ones about kind of like greed and possessiveness there's ones about like sort of unhealthy attachments there's ones of sort of specifically about like envy and jealousy and there's one kind of more specifically about ignorance lots of different translations yeah but that captures the gist of them and so I got to like thinking about those later on I was like yeah for me for how I ended up looking at this a lot of those emotions were tied into maybe how I felt like relationships were supposed like were taught to me in my culture and when they were burnt out this is just talking for me I'm not trying to say anything else I feel the same way as me but the end for me I was like yep you know like this experience with my first love going through these things was good because it really forced me to look at these glacias and then they just they poofed out they vanished and it's been kind of an interesting experience then um you know I insecurity things too as we talked about in some other episodes but really was the glacias and um and then that was just a kind of a transformed person and I probably went whatever I had of you the uniqueness versus exclusiveness thing of me it went really uniqueness like that's on Continuum I was on the far end of the Continuum because I had gone through these experiences were very intense around these very intense emotions and they were just gone and then by the time I was seeing my psych Mentor like to Michael schner I realized like well I'm just not an exclusiveness person anymore I'm something else I don't even know what a word was to call that and I still don't know if there's a good word we're gonna have people to come on and talk about polyamory I have friends in the polyamory community in Chicago whether I really identify with that I don't even know you know words are words there's things that they feel that I probably don't feel and sure you know it is what it is we can talk about that maybe a little bit later but I knew I was thinking differently you know and I can remember like going to talk with my psych Mentor Dr Michael schner and I was in his office and this was very anxiety inducing for me because I was about to explain like I don't I don't feel the same way people feel about love and relationships I don't feel the same way and um if you've ever been in this kind of a situation you're talking about like those moments of intimacy where you can open up Daniel and really like say what you really think I was really nervous about this because I thought I would say this and maybe he would say it was psychologically unhealthy or there was something wrong with me I didn't know what he was going to say I trusted him and we had known each other for a long time but in that moment I in that particular question I didn't know what he was going to say so I remember like being super nervous it's a very weird kind of anxiety you know what I mean Daniel like you're really gonna We Still you see it with patients too yeah you know this moment where someone's really going to tell you something that's really important for them and they're a little nervous or afraid and I had those feelings you know really afraid of probably being judged on some level because we're talking about judgment so I remember like I had all this tension in me but I was like okay I'm gonna do this and so I like said this thing out loud to him I said like okay this is my experience this is what I think and I'm just different now you know well the culture would be yeah and and one hand when you express something deep it's more difficult to do it with people whom you care about what they say will matter yeah what because they have a place because because again we're gonna I'll go back to the nervous system analogy you're you're relaxed around them your systems can intertwine more easily that they can impact you their words and their energy can impact you more deeply and so when you ex when you expose something it's something you probably kept hidden from them which there may be a little bit of Shame about or maybe not you know but the book I knew what I thought or felt about but I was afraid of being judged that's for sure right and then then right based on if you if you perceive that they may judge you that their their thoughts may you know butt up against what it is that you believe in that's a now that that's a whole other thing that is going to get you to have to at least look at it you know in a different way which either you decide okay maybe there's something wrong with how I'm thinking or yeah maybe my relationship with this person is affected you correct there's and those are both you're either questioning yourself or you're questioning the other person and when you have a close relationship both sides of that is hard to do especially when you're working through something that is as difficult as as part of your core kind of like way that you look at the world really yeah and then like probably like what we've been trying to talk about in these relationship episodes is how do you feel about relationships is huge it's going to have a huge impact on your life it's not small because you're always in relationship you're always in a relationship you're you have an opinion about them you have a feeling about them even if you're not engaged in one so it was this moment of like all of this tension in me and I think authenticity too I felt that pressure which we've been talking about a lot yeah I have to say what's True to this guy you know I mean in this psych setting but still I have to be true like the Carl Rogers thing I mean I have to say what's true it's like you know there's this whole big build up and I finally like blurted all this out and his response was amazing to me it was one of the like and all my experiences with him it was like this feat of Psychology from my point of view and he just said okay well that's cool so what does that mean for you and it was just like all of that tension just dissipated and I was like because I was studying to be a psychologist too and like as part of the set of experiences I was like well that was just some bad ass [...] this guy just did because all of this internal tension he just defused it like that and like one Fell Swoop and he just said okay that's cool you can feel however you want that's fine that's who you are that's cool now let's just figure out what that means for you going forward and you know how do you live that out in a real way and I was like God damn this is a moment so it's really one of the mode like we're talking about some of the more important moments in our life in this podcast sometimes we share mm-hmm I think because we don't want to have a spiritual podcast that's just like let's just talk about some platitudes you know we want to make it real you know so it's a real moment it's like now one of the funny things I can't remember if we you and I talked about this ever off camera but when I talked to him last time it was around the time we're having Bob Thurman on for the second time and I talked to him about you know this whole thing we were catching up and I've been meaning to catch up with him again um we're supposed to go out for lunch or something at some point um Thurman he's in New York doing something yeah but we should have him on again we should I wouldn't mind torturing about this question yeah that'd be good so we did that a little bit we asked him about his divorce and we asked him about stuff and he talked pretty honest about it yeah he did so he divorced and it wasn't easy right he went through his own kind of Buddha story where he felt like he had to leave his first marriage and it was not easy um so anyways you know I asked Michael about this and I said well this moment was the biggest moment of our whole therapy together yeah and he basically his response was I don't remember anything about that and I was like dude it's one of the biggest moments of my whole life he was like I don't remember that specific incident at all he's like that was a long time ago he sees lots of patience but whatever we've known each other so that was really funny so anyways I had this series of moments like this where it was me sort of coming to terms with this this other one is a little bit bizarre because it involves young and Freud and it's just a little synchronistic you know it was so weird Daniel I think at the time when I was an undergrad I didn't even put these two events together the Carl Jung lecture with Dr Anderson and this thing with Susan they didn't even click in my mind and what's weird about is I don't think I knew that word synchronicity I don't think it was in some old police song you know from that Old like group back in the but I didn't know what it meant so I don't think it I don't think it clicked you know that this weird synchronicity just that was the same [...] semester and I didn't like zinc tie those two events in my mind together but it's obviously Jung would say well that's a synchronistic event but sure because I didn't know the concept I don't think it stuck with me which I think is also kind of interesting for our episode because if you know a word for something sometimes it'll stick if you don't the word you might not even recognize it so it was kind of a weird thing I don't think that really stuck but uh I went and I toured Freud's house in Vienna at one point pre-pandemic and it was 2016 because I looked it up because it was the year that Deadpool came out another important point in your life well it was weird in a funny way yeah because I saw Deadpool with my daughter in Vienna and we had been to Freud's you know apartment where he and Jung had met and I like you know I'm interested in those people I teach classes with them so it was kind of a weird moment then we saw Deadpool and then I had and we'll figure out what we want to talk about but I had met another soulmate person and we had known each other for years and I was contemplating our relationship with one another and I was thinking about all these different things around this and I was back at the uh you know Airbnb kind of place we were at in Vienna and you know I can't remember the name of the lead actress in Vienna who plays Deadpool's love interest I can't remember her name do you remember the actress but she's pretty great yeah so I looked her up because she was had been in other shows I had watched before and I was just curious about career so I looked her up on IMBd and they have a quote for each person you know which I you know you read through at the bottom they'll have some quote from whoever that actor is and hers was um I think it's perfectly fine to be in love with two people it probably just happens all the time that was the quote they had and I was just like yeah this is ex like for some reason I think this is fine so in a certain sense in this episode I was quoting her at the beginning um you know and I was like okay yeah this is something obviously I feel this way and it was sort of a process of me going through this probably the last one I'll probably try to share real quick would just be like how like with my relationship with my daughter because it's been quite interesting um in the household growing up I really made sure that there wasn't a lot of support for jealousy my feeling and this goes back to the cultural part and we can debate this but my feeling in the culture is there's a lot of promate promoting of jealous feelings what do you think Daniel you think that's true yes okay I mean I think it has to I mean I think it's like that and we can talk more about that when we talk about the culture so there was always this thing where I wasn't promoting those but I had never really talked with her about how I thought about some of these things until you know because when she's a kid you're not going to talk about these things but when she got to be older I did talk with her about this and I got like a little text exchange we had I kind of made sure I had this for today I was really talking with her about feelings for people I had my life and I know how this is for you Daniel but for me I talked a lot with my dad about things but I could have talked more and he didn't I would have liked to know what he really thought in a deep way um you know about things that we never had a chance to talk about or he wouldn't talk about it I would have loved to know more about what he thought about his relationships and love he told me things because in moments he would be very revealing but I would have loved to known more and when I became a parent I thought I don't want my kids to feel that way I don't want them to feel like there's a mysterious quality to me that there's things that they they don't know about me or whatever I don't want it to be that way does that make sense what I'm trying to say yeah I think though when you get to certain stages in your life and you've had different experiences being a parent or going through different relationship experiences work whatever that your mind changes the questions that you're able to think about change unfortunately that is in exchange for time and everybody has different uh we'll say starting points for their time frame in this life and so those kind of questions that we probably are prepared to ask and want to engage with our parents grandparents older teachers whomever they might not be around by the time we get to them that's true that's that's the hardest part that's the hard part about it so yes I agree with you but I also want to make a point that like if you have people in your life who are deeply connected to you whether it be familial or you hold somebody in a high respect like how you had your psychology Professor or your psychologist you know to be as open and forthcoming as you can because the time is limited and like we've talked about numerous times before once that person is no longer here then those opportunities are done they're finished at that point you know and so it's it but it's hard because it's like you don't know how you're going to be in three months from now let alone 10 years from now 15 years from now you know what I'm saying so I think if but the more I'm I guess my point more is like to make the effort to try and be as open as possible because I think that Fosters communication and it allows the other person to say oh you're coming from a very like we use the word authentic a lot you're coming from a very authentic place a very curious place so maybe you might pull some strings from them that open up different parts of their mind that can illuminate parts of yours and because you hold them in high regard they can have effect on you in ways that you might not have even imagined actually and so there might be some regrets later not getting to certain topics but I think if you can get into those deeper spaces even like how you have with your father you might be able to glean how they may look at topics based on your interactions with them on a whole host of other topics because inevitably there's more questions than we have time to ask it was weird because when you know my with my dad I went through a lot of kind of change in my personal life my relationships as I was leaving grad school and um I did bring things up to him and we talked pretty deep and he told me about his experiences before he met my mom and some of the things that you know he went through so we had moments like this sure and I realized like well that's what I want to be able to do as a parent for my own kids I want to be able to share this so they can know the real experiences right you know my dad had moments like that I gave him credit my dad you know had this positives and his negatives he had definitely was troubled in a lot of ways a lot of anger issues but he had moments of real real honesty with me where he would get down to the bones of things and I began to remember those moments with a lot of fondness so I was talking with my daughter about this whole thing and I was like okay I was talking with some stuff even in my own life I was like well let's talk about this I'll share some of this with with you and I said it means a lot to me I texted her so I pulled the text up it said it means a lot to me that you and I are able to talk and that you accept me you know so I was basically saying good for you for being an open person and an open-minded and open-hearted person the reason why they say something is important to me because that I am so honest might be unusual though I hope not weird so I brought that up too and I said the thing is I don't feel people should feel ashamed of who they happen to love and then they said love is a funny thing it kind of can strike where it wants kind of like the lightning and I did a little lightning Emoji in the text and people feel ashamed or guilty and I put a little dot dot dot there but I said if you feel if you feel ashamed of who you love you are basically feeling shamed or guilty about who you are you're right see what I mean yeah question mark and I've always wanted to make the point between us be who you are and don't be ashamed of it and I say I love you beans which is her nickname in that in the fan like my nickname for her because she came out like a little bean so I told her I was going to use this I said okay you mind me doing this and she was no that's cool so then she wrote back and it was a little bit ironic she said um uh you know this is beautiful she said thank you papa genuinely she said I got back to uh like from the library you know in undergrad she went back from the library back to the apartment which was saying and all of her roommates were like sobbing over their relationship problems in the kitchen so he said it's really funny that this timed out this way so she was kind of doing her moral support and then she said I actually have many thoughts uh sorry let me go back to this make sure I do this the right way then she said this made me feel so happy Papa I feel an overwhelming in my stomach love for you which is funny because I think it's the only real conception of love that I really have because she hasn't been in love herself really she's like her love has been like really her experience has been through like more the relationships more than family things you know me or her brother or her mom or whatever and so they said and so this was so beautifully written which is nice of her to say and it's funny to me to think that people can feel ashamed of who they love and she says I actually have many thoughts about this uh now uh that I'm writing but essentially you know I think life is a beautiful thing and love is mainly what makes it so beautiful and then she makes this a little joke because it's all around us which is a reference of the movie Love Actually which we watch every Christmas so anyways that was her response so I guess I was like bringing that up because it also this whole thing kind of impacted that what I thought parenting was on some level I don't have any expectations of her to like have any particular attitude of what she wants to do with her life she can be sure whoever she is which I think is a non-judgmental part we talked about that last week with my brother my brother and I are different you know I was just talking about doing this episode with my mom nice 83 year old Mommy and she was like yeah your brother and you are really different and what happened for me is once this came out with uh with Michael I my whole family has known this for really since I was an undergrad essentially so I went and it became like kind of like a thing and uh you know talk with all the people and they might you know my family is like okay cool that's how you feel that's how you feel which was kind of again the comforting thing so as we get to the end of the episode and I'll throw it back to you in a second Daniel But ultimately when I look at the whole thing I look at back like with this incredible sense of gratitude for like the whole experience because it kind of changed and involved me in this kind of brand new way and I think part of it was I realized that as much as anything I wanted to like Define my own idea about life you know we talk a lot about like clashes with society and things but I suppose in the end for me it was like I wanted to find what I think is true you know and uh that could be spiritually that could be in terms of love and relationship that could be in terms of my work I wanted to come to my own truths and I think this was a real push in that direction and I thought that was really important for a more psycho spiritually meaningful life which I realized was sort of my deepest hearts desire and I also brought back this whole idea which is maybe my Capper for this part of like what is this karmic meaning and love and relationship because we had this very intense relationship with this person and she transformed me she transformed how I thought about love because she was just unique and like ever since like most people wouldn't say what she said most people wouldn't propose that proposal you know but she was like okay let me throw this out here you know she had that openness to her which I loved and admired and when I look back in the end I mean shh it was really through in weird ways our relationship that I got involved in doing Zen it changed the way I thought about love like a lot of like really positive things came out of that so even though there were difficulties in it I had to go through challenges emotionally to work with these clashes you know these Buddhist negative emotions in me uh it paid off like uh in the way that I'm like extremely grateful for so anyways that's my Capper for this episode I guess we're wrapping up so I want to give that as my Kepler but let me throw the mic back to you what do you think I mean I think you want to share you'll share whatever you want obviously no I think the most important part in the place that I want to end it is that's the last piece that used to the one of the last pieces that you said is not feeling ashamed about who you love yeah that's that I mean I think that's the most important part you know because it's because essentially who you love is an expression of who you are and what you view as as valuable and you know of course practical Dan gotta come in the building uh so long is that that love is not a destructive force in your life yeah yeah that's right you know um that you have to go through and experience what it is that that relationship has for you you you decided based on however you decided right maybe you're using your uh nether regions to decide or maybe you're using you know your psychology to decide or maybe you're uh conversing with your own inner Divinity as we called it earlier you know to help you you know move forward with some particular relationship but like that energetic connection changes people all every time you know and as we all as most of us probably know audience included in this every relationship is a little bit different even if you have a particular quote unquote type you know there's some body style that you like or whatever you know ethnicity or age I don't care whatever um but they're different they're still there people are different you know and they have you guys are we're making a different stew you know every time we intermingle and so to feel like you know I'll I don't know what the right word is but the opposite of Shame you know proud Pride something like this um in in who you're attracted to is is also says that you have a pride in who you are and about making your own decisions you know which I think is a powerful place to be because I feel like in that place you can accept mistake or you can accept um we could say maybe tumultuous outcomes as a factor of you being engaged in your life as a teacher as opposed to like allowing other people to have power over your decisions and then you're never really living your own life you're living the life that someone else thinks that you should be living when in real reality they should be doing their own thing and you should be doing yours and finding you know what that means for you and your own personal development so whether we are actors in each other's plays or whether we are you know plotting together in the the previous uh existence before we come into this one to Break each other's hearts or you know whatever build sukkas or depending on what you're into um I think is important really for people to to feel to not have that shame as a part of their expression of who they are really because that these are the times in which it matters most because we're always present and being who you are in a deep level when you're interacting with other people allows that person to know you and allows you to know them and it allows you to know yourself and if you're not doing the the Deep dive on who you are you know I don't know what else is more important to be totally honest you know in this life obviously compassion helping other people and whatnot but figuring out who you are in in all the various ways is important so um I like that uh I like that as a captain it's a great ending I think the whole idea of like to be ashamed or feel guilty or feel any of these like feelings about who you love is to feel ashamed of who you are on some level yeah and I think like this conversation with my daughter was then really important for me because we've had conversations like that before but it was like we put it down in writing even and it was like okay and you could see that it was like it really says like to me too to her like I accept you for who you are right yeah okay great ending yeah yeah I mean and ultimately when you're with somebody you can't you know there's some people like oh this person likes to play games or this person likes to do this like ultimately when you're paired with somebody whether it be exclusively or uh uniquely whatever you're still in a pair you know and there's still a connection between you and that other person some way or another yeah you're not gonna be able to hold up whatever game you're playing for a long time like you can't keep that up it takes too much energy for you to not be you so you're gonna be you at some point you know and if you don't know who that is well then I don't know how anybody else is supposed to you know so yeah just as a sneak preview maybe for next episode and I told the person that I might do this I get permission if I'm going to talk about people I got a very like a deep set of like I'll call them a voice message rants from a listener oh that maybe I'll share next week around this whole question because she's you know it was they were very profound and I was like yeah rant is probably not a good description for that then Eric Banton the best sense of the word I love the word Grant okay yeah I love a good rant like an angular tangent that might be impassioned but also misguided you know no I like rant in the sense of like I'm going to tell you some [...] that's real I like that version of the word rant but anyway so you know that's what she was doing and I said well you know do you mind if I talk about this in the podcast because you're really getting to the heart of sure what our episodes are talking about so maybe that'll be the same preview and she's really asking a lot of questions about well like she talks about a lot of things but one of them is like I have to be able to to love from other authentic Place otherwise that's not real right she's really asking that question very deeply so a little preview maybe that's the wrap-up episode on a lot of this for us because we'll do like whatever the social issues are I'll share a little bit the the voice message thing which kind of captures it and I mean I think we'll talk maybe about the social aspect of this but we did the personal aspect so thanks for thanks Daniel for letting me kind of share this and thanks for people for listening and yeah always yeah hopefully booze goddesses are smiling that like I didn't [...] this up too bad sorry all right thanks man all right brother well uh for Eric this is Daniel uh let's see what else we want to do if you're on the YouTube video like you know give us a like subscribe comment what's up we're definitely we're active you know we're very socially active if you will and you know unprotected even I'm gonna start like doing the shower curtain of wisdom things now once the episode from last week drops I was like that we recorded last week dropped I was like I'll start doing it so yeah I like it they like it if they don't it's done but that's cool is what it is um but yeah hit us up on uh on on the YouTube leave a comment in the uh you know I don't know where else you can leave a comment but you know send us an email at gin and Tantra gmail.com you can leave a comment there we'll be doing like quotes of the day on Instagram so if you want to like uh yeah there you go connect through that one yeah that works too you know if or if you're friends with us on Facebook feel free to you know write something to us there uh if you're not Eric Baker Daniel you see us in the description to this thing and uh yeah you know it's all love everybody don't be ashamed about it we'll catch you in the next one peace [Music] foreign [Music]