Hey fellow G&Reers, those of us who like our spirituality with the twist, Daniel and I are going to be really smiling if you haven't watched the video at the beginning of this episode because this the is one of the most off-the- cuff episodes in an offthe cuff kind of pod that uh will ever be off the cuffed. Yes,

we can barely get through this little intro because we're both laughing about it. But we were having a conversation,

but really some deep stuff and uh you know, usually we do a little pre-recording conversation between the two of us, whatever is on our mind for the week. You know, sometimes it's the Bears defense sucks, sometimes it's something much more deep. In this case, it was much more deep. And then we just decided, okay, let's just let's just hit play and record and uh and do this thing. So, you know, Daniel was really sharing something really deep and I like we kind of talked. I'll throw the mic over you and you'll kind of like lay out the thing and maybe we'll just kick it around because, you know, we're not the only people going to be asking these questions.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, as always, uh, like, comment, subscribe if you're if you're not uh, part of the team, you know, thank you if you are. If you're not, you know, consider subscribing. It cost you nothing. It helps us out. Uh, helps our work, you know, spread a little bit more. And so, uh, so thanks for tuning in. Uh, and

episode to share with a friend, too, just to kind of stumble through this.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Um, and any questions or anything like else, please feel free to hit us up at jynantragmail.com or leave a comment down below as they say. Anyways, all right. So, the premise of this episode is based around um a question that I had actually maybe two or three questions kind of wrapped into one. And so,

we get both of our retreat experiences too in a way, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So,

so immediate stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. So Eric and I do do retreats over the year and we will be having another retreat coming up uh that we'll be hosting for the public at the end of March. Uh and so details on that will be up very soon for those who are interested. But Eric and I also we go on retreat independently, you know, various times throughout the year. Sometimes it's a few days, sometimes it's a week. I think if both of us had it our way, it would be far far longer than just a week uh that we might just end up there and that would be the end of it. Um you know, or whatever. But we, you know, takes some time. And for those who've never been on a on a like a meditation retreat, whether it be super formal or more relaxed, it's a very unique and lovely space that I personally find far more recharging and rewarding than any vacation that I've ever been on. And I'm fortunate enough to have traveled quite a bit around the world. Eric gets to travel with his family a little bit here and there. And um you know, I know not everybody does, but people can go to Wisconsin Dells or some national parks if they can't get out of the country, you know. But being on retreat is very unique because it's generally relaxing and inspiring at the same time. I don't know how else to to kind of put it, Eric. How would you say how that

challenging too though, right? It's mix, right? Because you have thoughts and things that you know. Yes.

Like what you're talking about, things pop up. You're like, "Huh, what do I really think about that?" Or, you know, "What's the answer to that particular

conundrum in myself or in my life or whatever?" Those things happen too.

Yes.

But rewarding then, too, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so we'll just hop right in then. So Eric, that's a good point. So sometimes when you're on these meditation retreats and you're doing, you know, various forms of meditation depending on what kind of retreat you're on, you know, usually multiple times a day, but the rest of your day is pretty chill. You're reading, you're drinking tea, you're kind of hanging out. And to Eric's point, very, very, very often, and I would say probably it's almost part of the the process that doesn't really get spoken about actually. It's not like a formalized thing. As the retreat participant, you're going to have questions that arise. Sometimes you go into retreat with question with question, but I find for me even more often questions arise in the middle of my meditation practice. I think is probably part of the point if I'm going to be sort of meta and honest about it, you know. And so I'm going to go over the question that questions that came up for me and we're going to work through it in hope that in hopes that this helps other people who are probably asking these same questions. So a little bit of a long lead in and I realize however the premise had to be given so that you understand as this is not necessarily a super long form podcast. However, it's not exactly a 10-minute conversation either. So with that I'll begin. I have and so this is also very personal for me. So you know expose

because this is getting to the personal part.

Yeah. So so expose on uh on on one of our half the half the team of the ginantropod here. Um so here we go. So I have in Buddhist tradition there's what they call like the three jewels or what they call like the three very rare and unique precious aspects of the teachings. the the Buddha and the Dharma and the Sana. And we've kind of been over these before. Buddha you can take as the historical Buddha or you could take as you know your own soul, your Buddha nature, your Christ nature, whatever. Dharma they consider as like the teachings. Um but it's also reality. It's kind of Dharma is the hardest one to quantify, but we're going to leave it.

It kind of makes a certain sense though when you think of it that way because it's the nature of reality. It's the teachings about the nature of reality. So you kinduse that if that clicks for people.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. And

that's kind of a it is funny because it has lots of meanings. It's true.

Yes. And then the SA is like the the group the the the spiritual community if you will. And um there's another part in specifically in in Tantric Buddhism that is a a very very large part and they call this like guru devotion or guru yoga. Uh a practice where you will envision your teacher as the Buddha or as an emanation of an enlightened being. you're a specific teacher, your direct teacher, not a universal teacher, like the person who is in charge of your learning, that your main one. That's and I think it's a little bit of a foreign concept to some Westerners outside of maybe a large uh political or spiritual figure is to have this. But if you can imagine if you know for those who practice some kind of religion your main imam or priest or pastor as your primary teacher they would be the person who you would you know using your images and your visions as the as an emanation of an enlightened being. I personally don't have one. I have multiple teachers in my life Eric being one of those. So, thank you my friend. Um, who have influenced me greatly. That's like it brings a little tears. That's okay. Um, who've in influenced me very greatly. You know, we've had on a former teacher of mine, Mary Kay. I've mentioned my teacher Andre before. We've had on teacher uh Llama Glenn. We've had on teacher uh Robert Thurman. Uh, you know, you know, rest in peace Grimpe. Like many, many people who have influenced me for sure, but I don't have a single one. So doing that practice is a bit difficult for me because I don't have one who I'm going to do that with. So this is part of this one premise. The other side of that me being me and us being us is being a bit of contrarians. Maybe it's in our Aquarian nature or something like this. We are sort of anti-establishment folk which I think that people who are honest about oppression should be in some sense. I think everybody is. It's just a question of who we believe is oppressing who or whom, right? So, I have this on the other side of that coin for sure. So, people often ask me, "Oh, how was it when you were in the military?" I was like, "Oh, it was really hard because I hate being told what to do, you know?

I we don't want to talk about it now, but you my dad had to serve, right? He got more like you had to at that time back in the 60s." And he had that similar thing. And all the stories between him and my godfather was them getting in trouble for doing [...] that they weren't supposed to do in the way that they weren't supposed to do it.

Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. That runs in the inheritance that you and I have or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, this is the one part, right? So, the the main teacher and then a struggle with authority.

And then I had I've had over the last and some people who are watching this are going to know my personal story because they may have been friends of mine and and some people who don't are not going to know this my own personal story. I'm not going to share all of it. I'm going to just summarize it in maybe a sentence or two which is very difficult to summarize a year and a half or maybe three years in a few sentences but I'm going to simply say that over the last um you know for sure at a minimum year and a half there has been a lot of uh loss of my own personal community um in a very large way you know I would say you know me and a a partner split and um you know for some reasons that I'm responsible for and some reasons that I'm not responsible for. I have, you know, lost 70%, you know, or so of people who I considered close to me. Um, some of whom have been on this podcast previously. Um, but I'm not taking those episodes down or anything. They're up and they'll they'll remain there, you know. And so, there's obviously many feelings that go along with this. However, as I'm moving away from the kind of apex of this experience, I felt like a loss, but in a very specific way that has arisen from this retreat, from the questions that I was talking about previously about the teacher and the resistance to authority is that like I asked, well, did don't people think that I I and was I special? Didn't people believe that the work that I did for them was unique, was rare, was something that was worth holding on to and working through, working, you know, together on. And as people have left, the answer to that question is no. So that that hurts on an emotional level, but it also hurts a little bit on an identification level, which we've talked about many many times in the past. So now I have this piece of identification and this came to a head when I was on retreat uh which was really wonderful. I asked a question about having visions and hearing things in in deep meditative states which is not necessarily a part of the you know tantric tradition but it totally is. There's many many stories where this comes up and people are inspired to do many great things and things happen this way. It also was I think part of the state of cultivated state of meditation. So I asked a question in a in a group setting in a group share about these experiences that I have very vaguely because I know it's not the place for me to talk about that in a group setting but I did ask because I wanted people's thoughts and and you know these people who I was with have been practicing this style of meditation for 30 years plus so I figured why not ask these people live in person and I would say that the overwhelming majority of the people in room said, "Do not pay attention to those. Move on from that, sir. Go back to your practice and let all of that go into the ether." Now, we have had Robert Thurman on this podcast a couple times before, who I I believe is a fantastic aator, great teacher, good human being, very good human being, and he has given us both answers. One that says, "Yes, you should pay attention to these kind of inspirational things, and no, you definitely should not pay attention to those inspirational things." So my question has still a very ambiguous answer uh for me and our other intrepid co-host here Eric. And so I approach now the rest of this conversation with that premise of com of combining and why that question matters because if it is that I should ignore those things I have always believed that the most unique part about me is that talent since I was a child. Dreaming was always very potent. Sensitivity was always very potent. I don't necessarily rely on intuition or things like this because I know it's hit or miss and and whatnot, but it's definitely a big part of my life and and having visions and things like this are a huge part of my personal practice and and everything else. And so if I am to ignore those, essentially I am I interpret it as I'm being asked to ignore the most unique part of myself. And this combined with the problem with authority, with not having a main teacher, and then um yeah, all of that, the questions of who am I? What makes me me? Am I special? Am I not special? What if I am? What if I'm not? Who is remaining? That all of these questions sort of came up out of the retreat. And um I don't think that I'm the only one asking them. And I'll say this and then I'm going to let Eric um come in and speak. I feel like I have isolated a very strong uh component of my egoic identity and that I some part of me believes that I am special and that I am worth forgiveness and that I am unique. The other part of my mind that is very discerning and is straight wisdom based says no. No, you're not. You're not. That none of that is those things are neither true nor false. They don't matter. None of those things actually matter. And it and this being isolated in the way that I have found it is actually important for me to transcend. Not necessarily like cut off and remove, but to actually alchemize so that I can understand and find a place somewhere that I can be one of the masses, one of the people in the in the congregation without being a need, without having a need to be identified as special or unique, but then also be in other situations where I am special or unique, but not have that be a part of my identity that it could just be simply an aspect of self that is not necessarily me but also not necessarily separate from me. So, as confusing as all that is, Eric, please fix me. I had to say like before we started the episode, I wasn't sure everything you were going to share and you really went for it. So, props. You know, I was kind of smiling going in because I thought, oh, I wasn't sure. Maybe we're going to talk about parts of it, but you really went and shared a lot. So, thanks, Daniel.

Sure. It's a we try to do things personal on this podcast at times.

Yeah.

You know, because we're trying to make it like, you know, sometimes we're doing some of the educational thing. We're trying to like share about something and other times we're talking about something that's more like this. What does it mean to really have a practice and and try to transform yourself in positive ways and what happens when you try to do that

and all these different ways. Okay. As we were talking beforehand and as I'm listening, I kind of broke this up into different parts of my mind. So maybe I'll try to share my thoughts on some of this and then we'll just see what we think in the end all of it. So I think on the guru thing I know I had a lot of questions about that part

for me too. Um this has come up in episodes way back in the day but I started off training Zen. I had like a couple of really strong relationships. Uh one uh was uh you know through the Zen organization. It was Hosakawa Roshi who was like a pretty great Zen master. Pretty great. That's an understatement. Great Zen master.

Pretty great. He was okay. No, he was great.

He was a great Zen master. He's pretty [...] impressive person. Uh and like it was one of those experiences of being around someone who's like legit impressive. We all have that in different parts of our life, you know?

You know, maybe you're you're trying to be a musician and you're around some really great musician. You're like, "Holy [...] you know, that's impressive." You know, so it was impressive. and you know made obviously an impression on me with his impressiveness and uh Sugiamyama sensei was sort of a Chiang master and Shurakan karate master in Chicago and he made an impression so there's these teachers and it was strange for me because I sort of thought well maybe I'll have these teachers for the rest of my life and it just wasn't the case

you know I ended up like evolving in ways that were just different than would have been asked of me if I wanted to continue on that particular trajectory and there's reasons for that and we could talk about that some other time even but I mean there were reasons, you know,

I was like, I learned a lot and it was painful, you know, to go through the thing of like, wow, I thought I had,

you know, my person forever or something like that, you know. So, that was kind of a that did pop into my head. And as I went along, I started to realize like, okay, it's okay to have like different teachers

along the way. So, my my next mentor was uh Master Shangli Wong, Dr. Shangi Wong, great Chinese medical doctor and Chiang Da was kind of more master and like he made a big influence on me and I thought okay well maybe this is my home base again and it wasn't you know so it was like I learned deep things from these different teachers uh and the story kind of continued and at a certain point I think it really came to a head almost with like uh someone you mentioned earlier Glenn Hmlin Llama Glenn one of our favorite teachers and uh I remember thinking okay do I have to make like some kind of guru thing with him? Do I have to like sort of anoint him in some way, you know, some special way? And he was kind of resistant to that. And I've talked about that in different episodes here along the way, too. And what I took away in the end was something like you're probably going to have like multiple teachers and like that's okay you know even if um you know uh you might have a sort of a certain core group of people who've been really influential to you like the Zen master I studied with master Wong Glenn Mullen uh one particular cabalistic rabbi made a big impression on me you know taught me things in that uh sphere and uh then you know Tibetan Buddhist teachers outside of Llama Glenn who would be like El Rache the Daly Lama. And I began to realize like in like in that viewpoint even if I ask Llama Glenn or even if you talk with someone like the Daly Lama you know or Galac you start to realize like they had multiple teachers. So there are like these stories obviously of like one really really strong thing. There's really famous stories like Marpa and Miller is is like this right? It's just like okay this is this unique story of this or Nuropa and Topa. you have some stories that are like that, but more often what you really sort of get is like, no, people have like different teachers who kind of bring different things into their lives. And I again, I don't know how this totally resonates with the things that you're asking, Daniel, but I'm just share my own impression on this. You know, it was like, okay, that's fine. You know, it's going to be different teachers that are going to, you know, have that impact. And that got to be kind of like, okay. And I I got comfortable with that. So that was sort of my thought on the on the guru part. Even as a practical thing, sometimes when you do one of these uh you know Tibetan tandric meditation things, they'll ask you to kind of visualize a symbol of enlightenment before you, right? And it usually has to do with like what kind of practice you're doing. So hypothetically, if you were doing like a Tara, you would vision Tara in front of you, right? And she would kind of appear as this sort of

embodiment of the enlightened state, right? And um a lot of times it'll be like you see that figure as inseparable from whoever your teacher is,

right?

Or whoever your guru is. But what you start to realize is that I mean I think this is true. What you start to realize is that that figure then can be an embodiment of all of those figures that are influential to you.

It doesn't have to be like one distinct person. Let's just go in blue over here.

It doesn't have to be one distinct person. It can be the composite of all the people that have had influence. So even sometimes in like Galupka you know which is the Daly Lama school we'll just take that as an example but I think all the schools do this sometimes they'll have you visualize like the whole lineage of all the people who have made an impact you know it might not even be a personal teacher to you it's just like the lineage going back to whoever was the founder of that right

and then a lot of times that'll go back to whoever like sometimes it'll go back to Buddha you know or sometimes it'll go back to you know some important figure right uh who's supposed to be the initiator of that, but it could be like a whole group of people. But then at other times they'll say, well, you can condense all of that together as you know like just one figure. You don't even see them as individual anymore. Right.

Right.

And that might be even how you do your connection to whoever the important teachers are in your life. Like you might have, you know, for my practice maybe it would be Tara in front of me, but I would see entara as separable from like Gelimprimp and the Daly Lama and Llama Glenn and

the other teachers who have had a big impact on me and they can all be embodied coming through that figure and it's a way of sort of,

you know, kind of like looking how that guru thing will play out in terms of your own life, right?

So I found that to be comforting and helpful. Maybe it would be cool to think there was going to be like one magical person, you know, Don Juan to your Carlos Castanada who was going to solve everything, but that story isn't real, first of all.

Uh, and you know, it's told to make a point. It's, you know, uh, and that usually isn't how it's going to play out. It's usually going to play out that you're going to have multiple teachers who will bring different things to your life. Even go back to Robert Thurman, Bobby T, one of our favorite people, when he does his meditations on

the jewel tree of Tibet or whatever I think he calls it, right? He puts everybody up there.

Your mom, your dad, you know, your teacher from school who put you in the right direction, right?

Uh Einstein if you like relativity, you know, uh your favorite your favorite hip-hop person if they like said things that you know helped you get your own defiant pose. Right.

Right. Right?

Maybe it's Rack M up there,

Chuck D hip hop, you know, like but it's people who have had like that positive who brought that positive enlightening force into your life, right?

And so I that made me comfortable with it and I kind of let some of I don't know how it felt for you. It felt it felt a little bit like a kind of a weird anxiety like I'm supposed to be doing or having something that

am I supposed to be thinking differently about this? supposed to be you know

even with like gel rimpage I think there was a lot of students who maybe did that practice differently for me but Grimpage made a deep thing on me right the fact that he's passed when you're talking about being emotionally affected by people who had an impact on us like way you and I have impacted each other so much right thank you Daniel right we've impacted each other a ton it makes me want to cry

it's touching this is one of those sensitive brocasts

brocast we're bros Uh but the sensitive bros, right? But anyways, yeah, I was like I but I didn't do even, you know, I I felt uh deeply moved by Rimpache. He affected me a lot, like a lot.

Um but I wouldn't say he was like the only teacher who impacted me or something,

And I I realized I could make a pressure on myself to feel that way, but it would be artificial feeling. I'd be trying to generate something, forcing it or something, right? you know um and it felt better just to acknowledge like man I'm really moved by this person they really affected me very deeply and even on a daily basis when I think about him because I do mantra for him every day as well as I do for other teachers Llama Glenn and the Daly Lama like you know I offer mantras for them right out of gratitude for them

but maybe it didn't have to be like one person I don't know that's my that's my

it's kind of like uh you know having one partner your whole life versus having multiple you I know.

Yeah. Most of us are going to like probably aren't going to like it's you and Tina since when you were 15 or something. It's probably not going to happen.

Yolanda.

Could be Yolanda.

She was great.

And yet it wasn't meant to be.

It was not.

I don't think it's one of those things like you start to realize like I think you know Robert Thurman does a good job with that saying, okay, your tree could be filled with all kinds of people, even people who aren't Buddhists, even people who aren't spiritual figures. and and I I guess got more comfortable with it. I think and again I think Llama Glenn was helpful with that because he kind of diffused that in me.

He'll be like, "Yeah, I had like Llama Glenn be like, "Yeah, I had some important teachers individually and I had like other people who were maybe had an impact but maybe weren't as core." But it's kind of more like uh what would you say? You got like a whole a whole team of people there. You have a whole cabinet there, right? Better than this [...] ass cabinet we have

for America now. Like competent cabinet.

Yeah. of good folks, but you have like a whole a whole group of people who are

right

who are impacting you and like rooting you on.

I know. Yeah. I does that resonated at all? I know you about that that had meaning for me for sure. All right. I know for me on I guess there's two things of it. The feeling of specialness or something.

I really empathize this and we were talking about this before we kind of um recorded up. There can be these things like I've had some losses too. We were kind of talking about losses. We had I lost

special person. Special some special special people over the years. Um particularly special person more recently. And there is that feeling of like and I don't think you were even saying this exactly. This is me saying me. But there is something that when you feel like you're offering something deep of who you are that you feel has a special nature. And it's not like other people don't recognize it, but maybe they don't put the same value on it that you do or something in the end.

Right. If it was completely unrecognized, then you wouldn't have any connection with that person at all.

So somehow you have a bond with people. They recognize something special between the two of you. And maybe each of us have special things to offer. You see special things in them. They see special things in you. You know, I have I was thinking about this exactly today. So, it's funny how often we're in the same headsp space, but I do have this thought like it'll it's not conscious exactly, but if I reflect inside, I'll be like, "Wow, I thought what I was offering was more special and this person didn't see it that way,

and it can ouch a little bit, right?"

Or beyond ouching, it can kind of create a weird feeling of like a slight

self-doubt,

you know, where you feel like, okay, well, I really thought I was offering something more special and this person didn't put the same value on that I did. Mhm.

And so that can feel that way. Um, and I think what both of us kind of get is that's a little diluted.

You know, like we're not blind to the fact that it's not totally correct.

Correct.

Or it's like correct to some percentage, but it's not like 100% correct.

No, it's not 100% correct. It's not completely wrong, but there's a little bit of woe is me in there also.

Yeah. or god, how the [...] do you talk about these things because they're so tricky and you know, you and I realized that we hit record this wasn't going to be the easiest thing to talk about.

But um you can I think it's okay to feel that like boy, I think I have something special to offer. I think I have something even special to offer to this person or maybe a community of people.

I'm trying to bring this there and I think it's okay to feel that way.

I think that that's fine.

Sure.

Obviously, the trick would be what? like to recognize like sometimes [...] doesn't work out,

And like that not working out isn't necessarily the rejection of what you felt like you were offering,

And then there's something else kind of slippery in that.

I guess the big thing would be like I think it's still okay to feel like yeah, I had something special to offer. Maybe it wasn't the right time or the right circumstances for, you know, this particular person or this group of people, right?

But to go back and I think what I think is important, I'm curious what you think about this, is to go back and make sure that you edit out that self-doubt part.

I can still believe that what I have to offer or what I was trying to offer, you know, this part of myself still has beauty and value, right? Even if it wasn't

fully recognized in this circumstance. say lavie but to not have that undermine that sense of like no there's real value beauty and worth and what I'm trying to bring forth. Yeah, this is reminding me of, you know, a lot of the, you know, relationship podcast that we did, the Roomie podcast that we did, you know, acknowledging special relationships and on one hand, we're acknowledging special relationships and on the other hand, acknowledging the difficulty in living and the transitory nature of all things. and that some sometimes stuff's going to get [...] up because we're not perfect people. The other people in the community or our partners who we're engaging with are not perfect people. There's going to be misconstrued things even unintentionally, you know, and that's that's part of it. And so, yeah, I I don't know the I don't know the right answer about, you know, how to honor things that we believe to be special other than to do so while you're in them. you know, gratitude is always the right attitude to have basically. Um, but then in terms of like this question, you know, because I am an introspective person as you are, as I think people who meditate generally are, which is why I always ask people, you know, my patients and whatnot to do that because I think it provides an opportunity for self inquiry like no other. It is the mirror of oneself to eventually you clean it and clean it and clean it and clean it and you could see what's really on the inside actually you know um but in the process of doing that we see the various um if I'm going to use the mirror analogy reflections of us that are still blurry and to then ask the question you know how much of that am I taking on as something that was done to me versus how much of this is my own tendency to u make myself a victim or um minimize myself or take on extra hurt for whatever reason, you know. And this is kind of where I'm I'm coming up with this sort of very indescript but highly tangible sensation of identity within myself as special or at least what I believe to be relatively special but then also have a feeling of hurt but then also understanding no I'm not actually and and that's still okay. like it's still okay not to the pieces of me that if I have to give up or if I have to disregard like how to basically the question is is how do I disregard the most um precious aspects of myself who is remaining you know what hold on a minute I don't want to like

okay I'm going to like double back for like one second I was listening to what you were saying but I was also trying to think of the words

because I I think we had this is funny because there are these like kind of there must be more universal spiritual experiences on some level right because

I think over my retreat to the extent I was able to have one over the holidays I was similar things were cautioned through my mind

and what I think I'm going to try to work on personally and you or anyone else listening to this can take it wherever they want to take it but what I realized was that again I had some losses too uh uh you know maybe one in particular. And there was this sort of insidious feeling underneath the surface that I identified. And what it was was that I had had a subtle loss of like um uh uh confidence maybe could be a word for that or belief

in um uh and then effort towards what would have been like my most high spiritual aspirations. Like somehow they got lost a little bit,

right? And I was trying to figure out like what happened in that like why the [...] did this happen

because I still was keeping my the gears going. I was practicing every day. I was doing my things but there was a little lack of inspiration in it. Maybe that's the right word for that. So we kind of wrestle for words. In the end what I kind of identified was I'm going to use that phrase again. Insidious feeling. there was this underlying insidious feeling that um I felt like I was sharing things that were special. It wasn't recognized as being special and in that way it kind of undermined something in me,

And I started that over the last month or something like that. I went, "Oh, that's what happened." You know, that's what it is. I think maybe somewhat analogous to what you're talking about. Oh, I thought I was offering something really special. It wasn't valued as much as I thought. What's the impact of that?

And for me it was oh there's this subtle kind of again insidious loss of like that deeper drive belief and feeling in myself and trying to pursue like the most profound things. Somehow it got a little bit like um dulled out by these experiences, right? And uh and I went, "Aha, that's what it is." And I better like get rid of that

because actually what it's doing, at least for me, may not be the same for other people, but for me, it like stopped me from devoting myself. Nothing had to do with the other people involved or everything, but like my highest aspirations for myself or my highest visions for myself were being kind of undermined because of some subtle feeling of like self-doubt or lack of belief that stemmed from the fact that uh I thought what I was offering had more worth or value and it wasn't being priced in the same way.

So I thought, okay, that's a thing I got to get rid of

so that I can devote myself more fully. And when I kind of got out of that, I started to realize like, okay, now I'm moving again. Right now, uh, the meditation is getting more powerful. Now I'm feeling more like I want to clarify things. It started creating this momentum again. So for whatever that's worth, sorry, it took me a bit to get the words. So that's the way it is for me, right? And if that means anything to anybody else, cool.

But I imagine the experience a lot of us will have, right? you feel like you're sharing, especially in spiritual stuff. You're sparing the things that you think are have so much value and so much meaning

and probably not with any intention from another person or a group of people or community, but they aren't, you know, something happens, those things aren't recognized and you can feel that doubt in that,

All right. So, I guess there's one more piece of this.

Well, yeah, the question.

Yeah. The the last part of So, I would say to my ears, what happens in the guru thing? Okay. We talked about that a wee bit, right? Mhm.

Um, we didn't do the four gurus again, but you know, we can do that real quick, right? So, you could have teachers who are a guru. You can have the literature that's a guru. You can have experiences that are guru. You can have your own Buddha nature that's your own guru. Okay, so that answers some of that too, right? And I like that framing.

Not everybody does. Some people like you need devotion to a person,

But I mean, I think if you take that attitude, you know, uh, then you see that that guru thing means something bigger. Okay, cool. I gave like at least with my reaction I thought to the feeling of like what happens when you have loss and it undermines this feeling of belief in what you felt like you were sharing. Right.

And I guess the last part is like kind of more about like specialness in general. Well,

the question we that still is floating is that like if you were to somehow isolate just you know and Eric I'll ask you to do this and audience who's listening think about yourself for a moment and ask yourself what are the two or three you know most unique or special aspects of yourself or what you've value most about yourself. You know now you know some people this is going to be hard to think about or you know whatever but just think about or one whatever you have a special skill or doesn't matter whatever it is that's you you know good sense of humor or whatever I ask people in my uh clinic at the end of our intakes I say tell me the two best parts about you is the hardest questions I ask the entire time I have a really hard time asking that you know oftent times it's uh oh I'm very productive and uh I'm good at organizing and I was like no that's not those are not I mean you you know um

anyway so if you were to isolate a couple of those things that are really core identifiers of us who would we say we are you know I'm blank or some things that you do really well if I was to remove those things and say actually no those things are not important we we can't count who is remaining. That's that is essentially that's kind of like to me that's that's where all these things are meeting at this time you right right in this conversation and and right at this time and after the retreat for me who

can I like double back on this thing leave that question hanging and double back a little bit okay so part of what you were talking about is the idea of like cities

powers

powers right which is you know

sometimes just from like uh karmic ability Mhm.

And sometimes from like cultivation and development people develop like abilities to do cool [...]

And like what's the attitude towards that? Now sometimes in the tantrrist I'll actually say that you should try to develop some cities because that like makes an impression on other people

and like allows them to feel like wow maybe there's more to life, right? look at this person has something that's kind of cool. Maybe I can develop things that are cool,

right? Or um are helpful to others or inspire confidence in others. So it's not entirely held to be negative. I mean that is just true, right? That is in the tantras, right? Straight up they say that, So you know that's something and like you know if part of what if we get personal with it part of I think what you've shared with me in times and these are things that sometimes we're talking about off mic and off camera and all that like you'll have extraordinary experiences right like you were telling me

I don't remember how long ago it was some weeks ago you know that uh you have this beloved pet you know your dog and the dog went missing and you were sort of having visions related to the experience of like what was happening to that pet and you realized, okay,

and they turned out to be accurate.

They were accurate. They were they were right on the money. I mean, I was very accurate.

They were on the nose, right?

And and now, uh, I don't know if we can audience can see him, but, uh,

oh, there he is. He's back.

He is back.

Look, he's back and he's got the fresh wrap.

So, uh, no, he went missing for a bit. It was like

in the forest for a few days.

That was worrisome. Yeah. He got stuck. He got his neck stuck. And you were having visions around that, right?

So, okay. So is that a cool thing to happen? For sure.

Right. Is that cool? That's cool.

Yeah. Um now are are like you know if one has those kinds of things happening are like you or me or whatever are we the only people who have those experiences? No.

No.

No. Right. Like I've had things where I can tell when someone else started meditating. I'm like you started meditating? I'll text them at like 8:44 and they be like yeah I did. And I was like, "Yeah, I knew." Like [...] happens, right? It doesn't happen all the time, but it happens,

Happen. Yeah.

Yeah. It's those are real things, you know? We had on u uh Dean Raiden,

right? We're doing our tour of like previous podcast guests.

We are. This is a throwback.

We're all coming up.

So Dean Raiden is head of the Noetic Institute where they study like these kinds of

phenomenon,

powers of the mind, right? The power of consciousness. And what it really like has to do with is this idea that consciousness, the mind, the spirit or whatever you want to say has like non-local properties.

We can know things from a distance. And like a lot of us, we can have those kinds of experiences like you know like you know your loved one is in another city but you know they're upset like you just know, right? Or in this case you knew what was happening with your dog and you know in this like kind of very visionary accurate way, right? or whatever it is, right? So, like I know to my mind those are like kind of hints of cities, right? Those are flashes of city.

And I think it says something metaphysically about how the universe works, right? It says something about the power of the mind, the power of the spirit or whatever word you want to use.

Shen, our favorite Chinese word for this, right? Everything sounds a little bit better in Chinese.

It does actually.

Yeah, it does sound better. I'll say Shen instead of spirit and people like Shen. It's interesting. You say spirit and people are like, I don't think I care.

I don't know about that. It doesn't feel right.

You say in Chinese, people like oo. Um, so anyways, like it tells you something. It actually is a metaphysical statement about how the reality works. There's aspects of the of consciousness or shen or whatever that are non-local and we can tap into those things. So, I mean, is that a unique thing to be able to do in moments where it's particularly powerful? Yeah,

it's unique and it's cool, right?

You know, and we can have moments of those things, right? Are they particularly unique to uh just us as like we're the only person that can do that and we pat ourselves? No, that isn't true.

That's not true.

But is that a cool thing to be able to do? Right.

Yeah. And is it also like um uh informative about insights into the nature of how reality works? Yeah, it is. It tells you something about the nature of consciousness, right? And the power of the mind and all these awesome things. So, I mean, my reaction to that kind of stuff is like those are cool experiences and cool abilities to have as one has them. And um uh they're unique to whatever our own individual talents are being able to do that at different times. And it's not unique in the sense that we're the only person who could do that. If we felt that, then that wouldn't be right.

Right. you know, but like as far as a phenomenon that happens, it seems to me like, okay, yeah, those are things that happen, right? So, I think that's okay. I think that's a fine attitude to have towards those kinds of experiences and those kinds of abilities, right?

I suppose if they go too far, you get some of the zen stuff where they'll say like, don't get too too bunched up on some of these experiences because they might lead you like uh in funny ways or something. Right. Right.

So, I mean, I suppose it's the attitude that one takes towards it.

Yeah. But like I don't I think they're like good and it's like kind of like equivalent to other like karmic talents. Sometimes people have those things just more naturally and Dean Raiden talks about that, right? Some people can talk to the dead,

you know, real easy and other people can't or whatever, right? Their karmic abilities,

right? But I think that's fine. And like other people have karmic abilities that they're great intellectually in the sciences or my son [...] plays chess, you know, and

it's karmic talent or some people have musical talents or whatever it is, So I think that's okay to my mind. I don't know if that makes sense to you, you know. I think it's just like realizing like, okay, I'm not the only person who has karmic talents. That would be weird,

But as long as you recognize like, okay, this is like a range of talents that human beings or maybe other beings in the universe can have, right? Okay, cool. And if I had this one, awesome. Go

You know, okay, fine. And then the other part that strikes me about this maybe and I don't know how this resonates with you on this point but like there is a question of like personal authenticity what feels authentic versus transcendent

aspects of the self and I think we've talked about this in different episodes at different times this issue comes up

because I think there is something about

I I associate a little bit with Dowoism too but like you know we each have our own unique Dao our own unique expression of who we are right and it feels feels good to find that unique expression and yeah on the other hand there's something transcendent of that too

right which is the more transcendent aspect of like let's say Eric or something you know like there is no Eric past a certain point there's just going to be this Buddha nature that isn't Eric

but like both of those things I think can be positive things right to feel this the power of like this is my own individual expression and creativity and identity and then this is the art that's more transcendent. And both of these things can have value. Maybe it's like an ultimate truth thing versus an expression of conventional truth, if we want to use those kinds of Buddhist sound words.

I remember like when one of the guys was talking about the Zen masters. Uh, and these were people like Zen masters that weren't just from books and stuff that we were talking about them too, but like people that you knew because we I like knew multiple people who were Zen masters. Mhm.

And he was just saying, you know, when their personal when they get as people get more enlightened, it's not like their their personality gets like more mushy or absent or something,

They develop stronger expression, right?

You know, it doesn't like they don't turn all vanilla bland like you know, like there's not like the yogurt. It's just like the yogurt, you know, they have there's some spice in that yogurt,

There might even be some some hot sauce in there,

right? you know, people get young or, you know, like they're not all just bland old washed out yin. And I was like, yeah, there's a truth to that, you know, which is part of their own individual expression of their own

or something. So, I don't know. I mean, that's my reaction to those things. I know some people will will be negative towards that kind of way of talking, you know, but I don't know if I see it that way. Well,

there's going to be somebody who's negative towards any way of talking. That's just every way.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so that's what you would say in and then and so then and we want you double back a couple times. Uh but maybe we'll close with just that that question, you know, of like what is it that you think remains when the individual, you know, when the the the pill, you know, the kind of the pillars or the the the the gems, you know, the the individual authentic gems or we could say karmic influences or whatnot, you know, that are, you know, big pieces of who we are. What if those were to be taken away or to be asked to be disregarded for any number of reasons? You know, what would remain? Who would remain? The weird thing for and I'll try to answer this in like my own way, right?

We'll try to be real.

I mean, you could force an answer, but I'll try to answer as real as I can. So, the thing that hits me about this, and I don't know if we have a different idea about spiritual practice this way. We might legit, right? find out

in some versions of like when people think about these things they think about ego

that word will pop up and the whole idea would be like I have to transcend this ego

right and that's a legit way to think right and like there's a whole

kind of metaphysics around that of how to think about that right um and so but like for my like maybe my home base that's talked about less that way

right there's less emphasis on that because I think there's going to be this clear light bliss Buddha nature thing that every living thing has at the core.

Mhm. at least and this is like I guess getting into Daly Lama school stuff and Galuka stuff like everyone can you can find that right like that exists as a thing and the tool to do that isn't like I'm going to find this ego thing and like eradicate it somehow

right I'm going to kill it

I'm going to kill this ego they don't talk that way that much

they don't

so that's a little bit more my home base when I look at through my own experience and this goes back to even doing Zen where they might talk that way a little bit. But, you know, I would fall back on the same kind of thing where um I feel like authentic expression has a power to it too

because it inspires authentic expression in others. It's like a resonance argument. And you and I work with people all the time. So, you sort of get a feeling for how this works.

If you're more authentic, it pulls out authenticity from others, right? Mhm.

The closer do you any of us get to like a more um again I'm being kind of dowist about this but a more you know your own personal da that you're expressing in a more authentic way it tends to resonate with others

the same way if you go into like Buddha nature clear light stuff it tends to create that resonance in others too.

It does. Yeah.

Or in a retreat situation like we did a retreat last March. We're going to do one in this March. If you connect to some energy, it tends to help other people connect to that energy, too.

Abso fuckingutely.

So, so I there's less of that emphasis on like, you know, like there's this ego thing that I have to eradicate so I can get to this more transcendent thing to be honest, you know?

So, I've been more comfortable with like I'm more comfortable with that way of thinking. Mhm.

If I get really personal with myself, one of the things I've been questioning is I'm a big believer in like roomie.

And I'm big a believer in like love and sharing love with others. Now, that doesn't always work out.

It's expensive.

It's not that easy. So, I've like wondered like and in this culture it's not very easy. Like people don't tend to resonate in that way, right? Just isn't part of the culture. Okay. So I've had to ask myself if you ask me about things that are important that you feel like whether you need to give up or not right I'm just sharing my own recent experience of this right where I thought okay what am I going to do about that because I am a big believer in this but you know probably most of the people that I'm going to interact with don't think about the world the same way as me and so what does that mean right and uh it's funny because that word unique is in that too you know this is a unique way of looking at the world so should you give that up or not give that up or what do you do about that because it kind of core to how I feel about myself, right? That would be one of the things I would say. I love to learn and I want to love.

Right? Okay. You want to name a couple of things, right? I want to feel creative.

So, you might say some core things about yourself, right? I definitely want to learn. I want to share what I want to learn with others. I find that very moving, right? I want to love and share love. And I want to be involved in creative and healing activity. Okay. So, maybe those are three things, right? But I've had to like ask myself this deal of like, okay, well, I want to believe in this certain way of thinking about love and connection and maybe it's not going to resonate with other people. So, do I give that up? You know, is that a thing that I just have to like, okay, check. I'll leave that at the door. Or, you know, what do I do with that? And it's kind of so core to who I am and I actually really believe in it, too. It's not like if it was something I didn't believe, I would dump it.

Right. If you're like, h, well, you know, I thought that was an important thing, but that's kind of [...] [...] it. that can go. You can jettison things, right? But I think if you really believe in them, it gets a little bit harder. So, I've been kind of like trying to figure that out for myself, too. I kind of realized like, well, maybe I'll have to figure out other ways of like directing this thing. I also was asking the question, is it like a little bit of an archetypal thing, too? The lover is an archetype or the shaman as an archetype,

right? Do I overidentify with this archetype

in some way? And an archetype has a power, right?

You feel the archetype of the shaman, you're like, "Wow, I feel tons of energy with this." Right.

Uh so you start to think, okay, well, do I have to drop this or not? But I guess my own probably reaction in the end would be if it's really core to who you are, then maybe that becomes part of the spiritual path anyways. And it's how you transform.

And then maybe you can't be pushy. I'm not talking about you. I'm I'm saying I'm not saying you. I'm saying any of us. I'm using the universal you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Like maybe for all of us, we'll have to figure out how to take those individual characteristics that are deep and direct them into a spiritually uh productive way or something like that, right?

If you can put on your Carl Young hat, he would say, "Well, you can't really totally get rid of these archetypes anyways,

right? It's hard to totally get rid of them. They're not ultimate reality,

They're not Buddha nature, right? Okay, cool."

But, you know, to the extent that they're powerful things, they're there. and uh to what I so I've been trying to do is saying well okay well you know the tantras are for passionate people that's one of my favorite quotes about this so I have to make sure that in my meditative practice and you know if I can't entirely always have that in my life in the way that I would want but I have to direct the power of that energy you know in the way that works in the practice

yeah so that are my that's kind of my reaction how about for you do you have things that are core that you want to talk about before we get out of here

you know I mean I you know we these are so I had questions that I wanted to discuss So we kind of we definitely discuss them. Um, I think that's it's an interesting idea the way that you brought it up in terms of like archetypes, you know, and looking at the archetypes and when you were talking again because we're going to be having this retreat coming up and that the people who are in the group who is doing the doing whatever practice influence each other and generally the people who are most deeply practiced often will most will have a greater impact on those who have a less less in practice.

That was like true in Zen. Like I remember talking with Tosakari Hosakar Roshi at some point. I had a good retreat and he said, "Okay, you're in a good space. You just have to get more energy so you can have more of an impact on others." So

So okay,

I think that that's

my next retreat was shitty by the way.

But that one I was on the I was on the mark. So having so having that you know having that as a thing to think about I think you know we're going to go into this next you know year I mean not just a retreat but this next year questioning identity

you know having that as as one of the quandries in our in our mind and I think that will probably bring that up in other people so maybe just asking the question is enough maybe there doesn't necessarily have to be some answer, you know, some definitive answer. I've been, you know, really working on taking the experience and allowing the experience of whatever it is that I go through to imprint on me without contextualizing, without rationalizing, right? And just leaving it as it happens, sort of in awe of it, in all the things that is unexplained. leaving them unexplained, trying to do some answers, but not really going not not buttoning it up, not closing the case, if you will, still leaving it pending such that it it it continues to work on me, you know, like much like a Zen co-an would.

Yeah. You brought that the idea these are coons in a way, right?

Yeah. And I think the the last piece that is in my mind because we're talking about Zen and I just read um Zen mind beginner mind for those who've never read it. I just fantastic um

great.

Yeah. And in the beginning they talk about approaching Zen practice as a beginner and how it's really important to approach things as a beginner. Of course, you want to learn and grow and unlock things about yourself and and whatnot, but to still have that mind of a beginner of I don't know, I'm exploring. I don't know, I'm exploring. I don't know, I'm exploring. And when you have natural talents and and they use the example of music actually,

I didn't remember the book, but okay. Yeah, it's the in the very beginning that like if if you go in having some ideas in how to play something, you might be ahead of other people who've never played it before in the beginning because they have no experience. But over the long haul, their dedication, if it's deeper than yours, because you are relying on some tendencies that you have naturally, they'll be ahead of you.

And so this kind of consistent effort is often found with those who don't have any familiarity with something. They're just there based purely on on passion or you know inquiry, desire to learn. And so I think a as being honest I want to ensure that like I am still working on the path using the natural skills and talents that I have that we all have in our own ways to enrich my experience but I want to ensure that it's also not limiting my experience simultaneously because I'm relying on some shortcuts special talents tendencies if you will that can be wonderful but also have a potential to be limiting. I find, you know, like just like people who are really intelligent or who are really physically gifted at sports, they might not press themselves as hard as those who don't have those same gifts because they're already kind of ahead of the curve. But again over a great enough time horizon if you don't apply yourself um you can easily get passed up or be uh left merely as potential as opposed to an actuated and activated being. So I think that is going to be one of my uh takeaways from this for sure. I got like maybe one last thing to double back on it like let me try to phrase it like this and I don't know if this will resonate or not but

sure

like okay so like um love and beloved and all those kind of roomy ideas are archetypal

they have archetypal aspect to them

uh to the shaman is like a person but it's also an archetype right

definitely yeah

shaman is an archetype okay so does that mean that one can like you know uh it's a not a good thing to tap into the archetypal power of shaman. No, there might be a real power in tapping into the archetypal power of shaman, right? Where could that possibly go wrong, quote unquote, right?

I suppose if you mistook the archetype for who you are, that wouldn't be so good, right? That might happen in a way like Jung will talk about the idea you can be inflated by an archetype and it has such a big power over you that it kind of blotss out your more relative personality, right? M

or maybe it's the thing where you don't see your own Buddha nature because you're so mesmerized by the quality of that archetype of whatever it is,

If you mis if you mistook that archetype for the Buddha nature, you know, the clear light mind of bliss and emptiness that's the core of every living thing. Well, that wouldn't be right either, right? That would be like inaccurate in a way, right?

The dharma would be off. That wouldn't be reflecting reality. You know, it's the clear light mind of bliss and emptiness, the Buddha nature, that's the core. It's not that any any one particular archetype, right? Okay. I suppose the other way maybe it could go funky would be something like I'm the only person who has this archetypal ability. Well, that would be off too,

That would be an artificial sense of specialness that doesn't recognize that other people have those archetypal abilities as well or talents of their own or like that would be off, right?

Then that would be kind of an inflation like I'm the only person who has these special whatever it is, you know, but I don't think that undermines the idea that those abilities can be special and unique and valuable parts of any of us on like a conventional relative level,

You know, that's how I feel about it.

Okay.

All right. We did it.

Yeah. There we go. Problem solved.

A really [...] hard thing to do.

We did. Yeah, we did. This was totally

We talked about it for an hour or whatever.

Whatever. Yeah.

All right. So yeah, I mean helpful for me too. Thanks Daniel. Thanks for sharing.

No. Yeah. No,

very thoughtprovoking stuff. Yeah.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it. Um audience, thank you for listening. And you know, please feel free to comment and you know, be mean or nice or whatever you want. It's all good. You know, that's how it works. Um hit us up jinantra@gmail.com. We got the Instagram, Jyn and Tantra podcast. We got a retreat coming up as we've mentioned a couple times. We chill for ourselves because it's worth it. Uh space will be limited. Information is going to be up very soon. Might even be attached to this podcast if I can get all the bookings in order. Um but yeah, thanks everybody for tuning in. You know, we do this as a as a passion project really. You know, we're exploring our own psychologies and sharing things that we've learned and things that have value outside of our professional careers. Our personal lives definitely influence our professional careers um highly. And uh this is a way in which that I think if I could speak for myself and and maybe for Eric as well, this is the nectar, you know, of of all of the the crossroads of everything that this particular project here is the nectar. So for whoever is listening, thank you so much. Um I I do hope that our our our work has been uh beneficial for you guys and we'll continue to do this um you know for for some time. So um for Eric, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Peace.