[Music] hello everybody thanks for tuning in to Jinn and Tantra spirituality with the twist we are uh joined today by a friend of the show and uh now contributor uh one Katie Peterson Katie uh say hi hi hey um there there's some there's some uh additions uh some new people that'll be joining us on a regular basis Katie being one of them there's a a few others will be joining us as well but uh you know we figured we'd get something going for the new year and uh so Katie thanks for being a part of uh part of us our work here um happy to have you on uh I'll I'll give a little background on you in the kind of like the introduction of or like the I kind of the written introduction now that we don't do strictly audio anymore I don't really do the intros because no one would want to watch a black screen for a minute while I talked I guess that's my assumption right you know but anyways but I'll I'll do a little I'll steal a bio from you at some point and add it to there whatever but um just so people can kind of know you briefly and we'll probably start the your official beginning with like a TMI episode about you um you know uh condensed version but no I was like a five volume version yes yes like you're asking for too much information from someone who gives too much information you've just like actually tripled it because that's the math yes um if you want maybe just uh I mean so so I Katie and I have been uh friends and accomplices uh for the last man almost really like eight years which sounds crazy to say um and so Katie is a good friend of mine deep deep trust a lot of deep work uh Katie does uh many things but let me let me give you the floor for you know maybe two minutes here just to kind of explain yourself a little bit um for people who don't know you and I'm sure this episode will be listened to by some folks who do but the majority of our audience doesn't know you so let me give you the floor to say hi um yeah hi so I guess like explaining myself the first thing that popped into my head was I'm a super sensitive sensing being and that has permeated everything I do um and I guess I'm always seeking to put puzzles together from what's Happening from feeling and sensation and that is probably part of what led me to finding Daniel um and I guess to make that more literal like we're strength coaches we do a lot with the body obviously people know you but I work with people in wellness and their energy and their physicality and all these things but there's this kind of Greater support system that I feel drawn to connecting with sharing and that's yeah I guess something about me that's great yeah no awesome yeah Katie does uh a number of of different things so in the in the fitness realm in the wellness realm overall um Katie's you know yoga instructor she works with sound and people individually in group classes and she runs different kind of like um competitions physical type competitions using kettle bells and and teams and things like this she's a judo wrestler or judo player is that what you call jiujitsu Jiu-Jitsu jju practitioner practitioner that's right okay Judo people play but Jiu-Jitsu people practice so there's a you know is that is that how I don't know what I don't know yeah I think we fight right yeah no it's a fight we're practicing fighting um so anyways Katie I wanted to you know I asked you to come on um today so we can have this conversation as we're at the we're recording this on December 30th and this will probably go out on the 31st and so we are at the end of 2024 which has been uh a whirlwind of a year for many people myself included there was an election there was an attempt to assassination on a public figure there were many deaths and many births and many transitions for lots of people myself included many people in in in an our Circle as well and um I like to so I did this I think actually last year with my cousin Joey I think that's who I did it with and so it's funny to have you on now but um I kind of like to do a little wrap up a little bit not necessarily of the year but of what's what's coming right and so I kind of came up with three questions that we'll we'll talk about and then you know obviously audience audience you can think about these for yourself at any point uh and if you want to uh you know I'm happy to hear from people interested in what people think or say uh so please feel free to hit us up at jand Tantra gmail.com or hit us up on Instagram the Jin and Tantra podcast you can slide into our DMS if you will you know and uh see where that goes um or if you want oh man yes exactly um it doesn't really go anywhere so it's it's fine we have a small following dis flavor doesn't go anywhere yeah it doesn't go anywhere uh we have a small following of a couple hundred thousand people so it's not a large you know not a large network but it will be someday anyways okay so questions right people love to make New Year's resolution and and I and I like that idea in terms of looking forward right but for me I like to break things down a little bit further so how I want to frame this conversation and before we kind of move into the larger part is with three questions what do you want to leave in 2024 what do you want to bring in 2025 or the next phase whatever you want to call it into the winter right and what do you want to change or maybe what do you want to cultivate because I you know sometimes we're at different points of of building or developing and sometimes the initial for me the initial place of that is change you're like I want to do something different and then you can step into it but sometimes you've already begun that process and you want to deepen it right and so you want to cultivate that thing so so I'm going to let you begin um what do you want to leave here what what do you want to leave in the fall what do you want to bring with you into the spring essentially and what do you want to alchemize or what do you want to build or or mold moving forward past the spring into the rest of the next of the upcoming Seasons we'll we'll do it seasonality right that helps I get so nervous okay so I you sit with it for a second CU a lot ran through me just now because a lot just happened like over Christmas a lot happens you're with family and it's just intense and there's a lot that I work on all year that I feel does have a culmination when I go home over Christmas because it's like this is all the mirrors outside of me but also you're experiencing it all on the human level of like reaction and emotion and all the things that I've been working on are kind of being put to a test right MH so but to take it backwards like a step behind that before I left I I do a thing I like I what's oh to go home to Omaha for the holidays with family so the before I left it's almost like the fiscal year I'm in quarter four so I start doing a lot of cleaning and I start cleaning out journals and notes and what is it that I'm leaving behind what is it that I'm letting shift in me and I really have to work with the language of I'm not like getting rid of because a lot of times it's not that it's like that expectation that something's gone and or if it's not then you failed it's like what am I shifting what am I how am I rewiring that this is going to be something slightly different and I can feel different and I can meet it differently and there's a different outcome and it doesn't have to be cataclysmically different but it's different so I'm cleaning house you know doing all the things and an alter somehow comes together and there's scraps of paper with things I've written one with a diamond on it that says womb Matrix I'm like o I have to like go into that and it was the fight it was like I'm leaving the the fight to think I need to defend something defend myself to have to fight for my point to have to struggle to be understood it's like I might have to to work with that differently in different relationships and different circumstances but to let go of the assumption that it's going to be a fight and that was I think the how I couldn't encapsulate it just now it's the Assumption that's it's going to be a fight and watching the explosions when I'm at home it's like it's that people are yelling to have their point and like the point is already understood and it's underneath it that we're going to have to come to a solution or Building Solutions versus fighting about whether or not your point is valid the point can be valid we still don't have a solution and if you're angry about it it's like you can't even see that route so I see that play out in front of me in a very literal sense interestingly enough that's like the handful of crystals and notebook paper and whatever that I bring home and forget about and leave it in the suitcase until all of a sudden it's making sense but it is a lot of what is in my life that I feel I've been working on all year and shifting in different ways that have looked different to me and then it had to hit me hard at home where someone else was doing it versus me fixing me and how I respond to someone else doing it is kind of like well that's the that's the alchemizing moment of them being able to give myself more compassion yeah relief a a belief that a mistake doesn't make me bad yeah or wrong yeah or that I then am needing to carry shame and by proxy will now induce shame in others through my anger and so I think that that was a bigger Whirlwind all year uh I mean have a much longer dentist story yeah that I handled like a warrior in the garden versus like somebody like slinging their M16 and like that said I'm not just always this angry person when things happen I also then will sometimes just sever things and that leaves a different kind of shame in me where like I I feel like I am bad so I have to run or I feel like I'm GNA end up getting too angry so I have to run versus in other situations I just get angry but either way there's no like in between of like well what happens if I can just tap into like I'm not bad and I also yeah so so just for for the for before we you know unpack other other things I want to make I want to just just haveit so that like it's conversation like pieces right so what you're saying is that like one of the things that you are wanting to leave behind that you have been working on to leave behind is this idea that you there is an assumption of fight or struggle in order to and then then maybe feel in this part for me make your point or be heard or or have a conflict resolved or that that part was a little bit unclear to me I just wanted to kind of clarify I think that to let go of the fight to maybe it's to be heard maybe it's the to have your point proved or understood but it's also like like I have to fight to exist in a situation or I have to fight to be have to fight to belong or like that anything's a fight in maybe the greater sense of belongingness and when there's conflict well gosh that fight gets fiery so now I've got a like really unimaginable bigness in my body that I don't know how to handle unless I'm actually working with what that is on both the vibrational level and my body and what it is that's happening and so I think the the letting go of as you encapsulated like it is it's the assumption that I have to struggle yes to be loved maybe that's the Simplicity of it that's it yeah and so or or just even even in a larger St even in a larger sense to exist as you right and and same thing because like being at least for me exist as me to be loved yeah yes yeah that's I was going to go to the next part the next thing is like part of being loved is being loved as you because if someone loves you for an idea that is that really you is that is that love really directed at you or is that directed at the projection of you which you know isn't you and therefore it's kind of like hard to accept it because you're like it's kind of not me though actually it's to your point like that you just like blew my mind too because part of you doesn't know that it's not you because part of you has been doing that thing that program for so long yeah that it feels wrong but there's no logic around what's wrong there's friction but there's no like well I don't know why I don't feel loved everything outside of me says that I should feel good and that I am but something inside of me isn't and it's those places that we fraction off that we're not conscious of too that discrep that discrepancy between the two is the struggle that probably what you're talking about right there's that there's that space which is the you know acceptance of yourself and then the feeling like it's NE a necessity to uh put forth effort in a struggle kind of a way to assimilate the other pieces that we are aware of and unaware of in a sense and you know I it's almost like believing that we're not allowed to fight that that's going to mean something that's going to mean there's like an abandonment or a severing or that that will make you unlovable and that not being allowed is why you believe you have to struggle and and no that's not it not being allowed is why you believe your point has to be understood to get to a solution it doesn't necessarily need to be agreed with understood or cared for or cared for is all I really would need but it doesn't need to be agreed with so you don't really need to fight for that agreement when we're going towards Solutions it's just we can't do what we're doing here can we look at different solutions yeah so let me let me ask you then so and and I'll and I'll do mine too right but like so giving up the idea or the Assumption of struggle struggle for existence struggle for love struggle to be heard struggle to be you or struggle to be us right and in in a more humanistic uh perspective so if that's what it is that you are wanting to if that's what you've been alchemizing to release or to not have be a part of the program moving forward Hello Kitty um what what is it that you are wanting to see come to fruition as you you know cuz we get rid of something or not we release something right that is not in the not in the programming moving forward and Eric and I love to have this uh debate speaking of struggles and battles I like I like software analogies because I do think that it works well for our mindscape for sure uh he doesn't like it and so we have a it's a nice little struggle but for he's not here so this is software Eric this is software [...] um but in terms of like okay so we're getting rid of that program right or changing that program what is it in that space that is then created where that energy was bound to struggling to fighting to viewing things as a binary kind of um I don't know in in an arena where there's a winner and a loser right and you have the struggle to have that with with the energy now that would be freed from that part being more gone not 100% but more gone than not what would you like to see arise what would I like to see aise huh or do you want to see aise oh heading towards a different feeling of answer until that was the language and I'm like H hold on cuz it's almost like what I'm seeing arise or sure what are yeah I mean what are you see that is so uncomfortable and maybe that's why I don't want to let go of the struggle like there's there's pieces uh where if I'm not fighting I have to be quieter I have to be more still I have to feel through what was the fight like a lot in me but I also could see how different it is because I'm consistently aware that I'm in it and not uh masking when that intensities in my body so I have to exit an environment or you know if it isn't as huge if it's something small I just notice a little bit of a raciness or a little more compulsive energy yeah uh and then beh and so there's something about the the sensitivity is what happens when I care to pay attention to it and then I think it refines my understanding of oh that just hit my shame cord and so then for me it makes me eventually like I have to vent I have to get angry I have to whatever maybe say something to a trusted person but like at a point where after I've gotten the everything out I have to go sit with like the shame and then ask what narrative I'm doing and what judgment I'm saying this is having on me if someone's perceiving me the certain way whatever it is it's still coming Through My Lens so I'm kind of going into that and I've had a couple humbling spaces recently where getting into like that portal of like why am I actually putting this narrative out and maybe part of it is something that has been expressed and maybe part of it's not but like right now that's where I'm going and so to me what's coming what I'm bringing in yeah is through this portal of deeper awareness and some places of uh humbling that I still have yet to even like share with you outside of the podcast like and I'm just touching it I'm like catching where I lied to myself about something sure and then avoided even learning through my own lie and now I have like an apology to somebody that like I don't even you know yeah know if they care but I caught myself where I'm in a shame point so all all that said uh what I'm bringing that I haven't yet realized is I think the courage to have some of these conversations and facings or I don't know not sure yet you know I I'm not sure yet because there's a courage that maybe it's not a conversation either and I think some of it's a courage to let go of the shame that if I can actually allow the space that's awareness where I'm not putting a struggle forward to defend or be seen or whatever there is an awareness of like oh well where am I avoiding relationship with people or dismissing or have I put up barriers because I'm stuck behind a narrative and in that I want to bring in kind of the like defragmenting of that or what's my software analogy like unwiring of what I've put up in reflection of this Dynamic and what are so let me let me there's it's like it's like Fray at the moment right yeah so okay all right so so let's just we'll do this so there you know and I I'll do mine so that we don't you know just keep keep doing this one piece but what what I'll say is that like from how it looks for me is that you have an understanding that there is an energy that is a a a it's a it's a struggling kind of it's a pushing energy it's a forceful energy it's kind of an angry energy it's a it's a you know a fighting energy we'll call it right that that is there for whatever reason but it's behind a a lot of a lot of the things it's behind a lot of the ways in which you know you struggle to be heard at times for a ways that maybe are in some relationships some different kind of things that you are wanting to let go of but that energy is still present right and so as we're talking about like alchemizing and changing something the question and you know this is just will be an open-ended question it's like okay what does that wind do now that it's not pushing you in a direction that you know no longer want to be going right you don't want to move in this area so you don't allow that wind to move you in that way and so and again we'll just leave it as an open question where is it that you would like for that wind to move you and why I say that is because there is um you know in in the kind of Tibetan the vajana tradition the tantric tradition there are many different you know uh tantric deities you know that are associated with various psychoemotional or or energetic qualities some of which are art some of which are love some of which would be wisdom some of which would be you know whatever right healing but some of which are ferocity actually right and they are to like stare death right in the face and overcome they scare death just by staring at it they they like kill death if you can do that right but they they burn a hole with their eyes and so why I say that is that like the there's an area of like uh anger that is kind of the the flip side of ferocity right being Fierce so if your cat is about to dive out of the window you're going to probably yell and grab it and be like oh my God don't ever do that right or you're you know your nephew or your niece sticks a wants to stick a fork in a socket and you run by them and you just smack them because you can't you don't need to worry about like are they going to be traumatized by this we'll let them be traumatized and not have brain damage from electrocuting themselves so this is and it's in you but like you're not walking around blocking every Outlet yes and it's that it's the Assumption of it's going to be a struggle or Assumption of victimhood or assumption that something's going to go wrong but the fire is like the fire the fire is still there it's pure and so that stare does capture someone because it's pure it's not coming through all these judgments that we feel judgment when someone judges you you feel it they don't have to say it yeah it's coming from compassion so that's what I'm saying that that ferocity is coming from a compassionate place and so and you know you've used that when we spoke earlier on the phone uh you were using that word kind of pretty regularly so it's like how you know how is it that you are going to take that energy now the the energy of struggle and maybe not change it on the outside but change it on the inside and it and Infuse compassion into it such that you are not being on the on the uh the one side of a dualistic battle where nobody really ever wins because you're just the energy is in just the is in the fighting it's the shame it's the it's actually that's it like that's the I'm still not bringing it with me but it's the stepping into uh deeper understanding of what is my actual nature that's what I'm bringing into this year and if I Can Shed this really like old decrepit program like it's just sticky it's like it's not even really it it's just something that and I was saying this earlier something like around shame it for a long time I would just think like that's such a primal human emotion oh everybody feels this oh it's that deepest layer that every human feels and more like in the last couple weeks I've kind of got into a different understanding for myself that's like it's not our nature that's something that is a programmed inous thing that we're born with original sin because of an apple or something but like we're not that's not our nature and so I let's let's hold hold the hold the shame we'll do the shame part in a minute let me let me I think that's my spring thing that I'm going to or the 2025 thing though is that like I'm not I'm what's the opposite of bringing that with me is what I'm bringing I'm bring bringing acceptance I'm bringing a space for myself to be able to actually not just make mistakes and let them go for me but have others around me making mistakes and have ways of working around this that are different and I think I am pretty uh I don't know what the right word is like but neutral in this capacity already but there's something bigger and there's something deeper for me where I am hitting a different layer of what I need to accept and love in me and that is what I want to kind of I guess cultivate too I don't I don't see it as not an exchange it's that moving how I look at and embody shame and then also how I'm judging anyone else when they're deflecting out of it and so that to me is bringing in a greater compassion State on both directions and the cultivation is yet to be seen but for me also feeling where that holds me back I think it's opening up greater space for romantic love for being able to be seen in environments and community in different ways or to accept that I might be able to do something scary that I don't believe I have any place doing or you know that sort of thing all right so then so we'll leave so the the cultivation part we'll we'll talk about I'll just do mine quickly because I feel like that's ultimately where we want to be in any ways in this in this part um so thank you for sharing um and okay so for for myself okay uh leaving in 2024 um I know I don't know everybody who listens to this show this our podcast right we're we're a year four and a half and we are making changes moving forward will be putting out content almost every day which I'm very excited to do to be doing um for those who've been here with us since the beginning thank you for those who are this is their first time or their 100th time or whatever thank you I I say all of that because I do know that there are some people who watch this show to see me and to catch up with me even if we're not in contact so to those people I say hello I still love you um but what I am not bringing with me into the next year is relationships that are not parallel with where I am going and that is a very difficult thing to do I am a community person I have been building communities for quite some time I have numerous of them that I have um cobbled together over the years with uh boogers and Bubble Gum as I like to say um and so it is difficult to lose people in this way uh just as a as a as like a core kind of being for myself so even though that is not easy to do I am also aware that you can't you can't carry everything the trunk eventually becomes too heavy to take on your journey and so by my own valtion and the valtion of others like I'm letting things play out as they are and I no longer watering certain plants so I'm not bringing certain people with me into the next into the next chapter doesn't mean I don't love them um and it's kind of sometimes painful but I'm I've accepted this that this is the season so not going into not going into into long-term storage with me in the hibernation phase and therefore they will not taken out to play in the springtime when it is eventually the uh the season of sharing again you know what I'm saying uh so that's that's one and the the part that I'm I'm wanting to bring with me is the idea of creating ripples that we do things that happen now and then they Ripple right they have positive or negative I guess consequences you know cause and effect k if you will I want to be very as as intentional as I can with the ripples that I'm creating so I'm at the end of a cycle at least I hope um I'm at the end of a cycle now you know and I'm intentionally taking a pause with many things before the next cycle is beginning but you never really truly know when something is starting and something is stopping or vice versa so you just try and like feel it out anyways at least I do um and so I'm wanting to be far more aware and creative in the ripples that get that get that move forward in time you know and um and backward and backward yeah I I want to I want to have that as a piece that I'm aware of now obviously you want to be also spontaneous in the moment and not being like super calculated so there's a bit of a balance between those two pieces uh but for me I'm like if I'm going to do something I would like it to not I I I don't want to be overly concerned with the outcome of something that is natural you know what I'm saying so this is kind of what I'm wanting to bring um to bring with me in the in the next in the next say that last part again say that last sentence one more time uh I am not wanting to I don't know what I said but something in the something about not natural yeah something like I don't want to be concerned about the consequences of something that comes natural ah yes yes you know what I'm maybe I I needed to hear it again but that's really what thinks up with exactly what I'm feeling too yeah and and and in different ways it spreads out but it's like yeah and things are going to drop off when I don't have the same yeah wiring to this configuration and we you know we use the we use we've been using the word authenticity for a long time I feel like it's a little bit more it's becoming more popular in the sort of lexicon of like modern day uh superficial spiritual [...] talk um charlatans charlot you know what I'm saying now if they're from Charlotte no hate right you that's how that's how it is if you're from Charlotte but that's we are hardwired for authenticity I've been saying that for a while and it's like again sometimes it's unconscious but you can feel when there's something that's not authen stink meter goes gets it's already up there you know from my own it's it's high from my own [...] I can't have anybody else's on top of it it's it doesn't work right that's that's why yeah exactly my [...] oh I'm honest like you know what I'm saying like I am no hero man no role model I'm like like look I found a little layer of my own [...] last week that like nobody even knows about that I'm like oh I was bullshitting that yeah and I never even saw it so it hides well but not for others no um okay so so the kind of the the the meat of the conversation here and I think the the the interesting part is like all right what do we want to alchemize or what do we want to change moving forward and you were kind of mentioning this shame piece so and this was the kind of like the the Crux of our conversation earlier and why we wanted to do this but I like having things that are multifaceted you know what I'm saying it kind of livens up the conversation a little bit um so we we let's let's get into that part now so like if if there was going to be an editing portion we would edit right here and move to the next one but there isn't but we will um okay so this this last part it's like all right well what do we want to cultivate and and make change or you know start to like alchemize if we're going to use you know nice lingo you know and for me and for you independently but then together it's this idea around shame and we can certainly talk about this individually as as it is it's still the same Essence but it's shame for me is is is a reaction to a thing and so I will I will start and then you can certain certainly add you know I had you start last time I don't want you always to be the the one first in the water I will I will dive head first naked into a a pool of jello um okay yeah yeah that's where we're going yeah totally I random we always have to do like maybe one random story and so Random Jello story uh I went to a restaurant that shall remain nameless uh it's probably closed down cuz I was quite Young when I went there and I'm pretty old now I'm about maybe 75 or something like that I don't know exactly how old I am anymore um so I went to a restaurant and we went for lunch and for dessert because you have to have dessert when you have lunch when you're nine you know uh I got some Jello-O and I was like oh cool Jell-O jell-o's great who doesn't like jello you know and I thought that there was like fruit in the jello because sometimes they'll put like canned fruit in the jello yes it gets worse uh Katie it was not fruit in the Jello-O Katie it was not fruit in the Jello-O Katie what they put in the jello Daniel a cockroach oh no you eat it I didn't eat it I spit it out because I put it in my mouth and I felt something like in there that was super gross and I spit it out and there it was on the table on the on the yeah so gross Jello wow good Jello story yeah good thank you thank you okay so Random story complete box checked all right um anyways okay so shame is a is a response to a thing and what I am intentionally going to try and monitor for myself is shame being released as a response to pleasure I have been aware of this in myself in the kind of I you could say like erotic space for quite some time I'm not quite sure why and over the last couple months I've been kind of diving into that as why is that the case and I have some pretty good ideas as to where it might have come from but what I noticed and like how you mentioned with the anger piece or the fight piece is that it actually pervades numerous other areas it's like putting a drop of food coloring in a fish tank it eventually permeates the entire thing right and so when I think about for myself shame and pleasure I think about it in and any I ask myself okay where is my where does the shame come from with what pleasure well eating I mean I like to be healthy but if I eat some cookies or something like that I have to go oh that's that's too much you know I I enjoyed it but that's enough no more now right you know and so I'll I'll and I love cookies so like I have to stop myself you know what I'm saying but I can't stop myself and be done and just let it go I have to stop myself and be like you [...] up bro you know what I'm saying and like the ultimate part of the sentence is I love cookies I love cookies right like yeah all of that around like the regulation and the boundaries and the restricting and the denial and the having to have All or Nothing potentially like but it's I love this thing yes and that's a hard thing and I was saying earlier where I think when if we're denying our right to love something or right to experience pleasure from something that's what bridges into compulsion energy and behavior and shame yeah because I think in some ways we're ashamed of the compulsiveness because that's out of our nature now do you you know kind of so on this topic right so again I'm aware of that in in in the eating realm and in and in many other Realms right it's like you I but I think I don't think I'm the only one but I'll just speak from the in the first person so I don't sound you know crazy I feel like this is a common thing and at some point in order to um Foster positive habits I implemented shame as a as a a mediation to level off the I guess you could say like exorbitant states of of happiness that get associated with certain activities right whether those that activities be eating or plant medicine or other pleasureful things that we do with our human bodies you know what I'm saying sex yes that also uh I was talking about massage but you know yes all all of it though like all anything any it even scrolling on social media like something you know it's the the hyper dopamine response and the addiction too but I think there's also like a it's bigger than that it's original sin it's like it's programmed it's from that state of like you're born with you're born naked you're born in shame like it was like get your clothes on Adam and Eve like but all of it is like it's a story and it's a story that is restrictive and it is against our nature and there's there's so much running through my head right now I can't quite capture all the things to not Fray it yeah but I'll I'll I'll step back and grab it when it's bite-sized but I I believe it's from that and so I at first wasn't hearing exactly what you meant by shame as a response to cuz I'm like but it's also like it's also in us because it's but it is a response it's when it gets triggered to make us feel like we're less than it's a really good way to have power over uh I don't know there's a lot that's like kind of this top down energy that like that's you have to have an authority for shame to even exist so if there isn't a you know authoritarian infrastructure it doesn't exist so you're saying your your belief then is that this kind of Shame is conditioned yeah yeah I I really felt like it was part of the Primal like human Meer before and I didn't realize I thought that I think it's condition and I think we then start responding out of it in all this really gross ways that we don't even realize like you know when you are upset with something or someone the way the tone comes out the way the language comes out the way I hear it from people when they're you know saying something it's inducing shame in the other person it's it's shaming them to make me feel Justified to have my feelings and I think to me it goes back to what I want to not have it's not so much anger anger's fine I don't want to assume I have to fight for everything and I think that that's something like I have to fight to have pleasure I have to feel shame and wanting this thing it's interesting I remember my grandmother when we were younger she would go she would take her fingers like you know and kind of like and she would go big big shame on you Daniel big shame on you you know I I remember this but yeah I I it's an interesting point you bring up about this kind of original original sin right well from the Christian perspective or the Catholic perspective or the judeo-christian perspective right because this sits at a jua position to the tantric path which is the path based on on Pleasure not pleasure isn't like that's the only thing that there is it's not an addictive path where you you know everything you do has to feel good it's not that's not what I'm saying it's it's using pleasure as a means to cultivate yourself right like you don't like discipline is good but what if you enjoyed it can we enjoy things like the I just find it interesting that uh because you know at least it's my assumption and I'm not I don't know everything hell I don't know barely [...] anything in the Lexicon of potential knowledge of knowing things yeah yeah when it comes to knowing things I know little um but judeo-christianity is not it's not that old in com it's not as old as other traditions and other Traditions are far more if you look at their iconography are far more liberal in their depictions of men and women specifically of men and women together right there's a [...] ton more nudity there's a [...] ton more of like male and female in Union specifically it's divides us like as you're saying it all I keep feeling and hearing is the word divided divides us it divides us yeah and like that's you see it in our politics we have a two-party system like it starts to permeate outward into in this country in this country divides us right right but you know just creating division is and and it doesn't always exist and hasn't always existed in all cultures and subcultures but I I believe it's thick now and even if you're not from a judeo-christian uh upbringing it's it's here yes it's it's the loudest thing and like there's it's who's the ruling class so they're ruling from that book and I don't mean the Bible I just mean like that that larger game theory is what we're all part of yeah in um in the tantas they they talk about these three kinds of suffering and one of the main three types of suffering is specifically listed as the suffering of conditioning and the suffering of conditioning I think in the classical sense to my understanding based on what I've read and how I understand it it's human conditioning you know as in you are you is the way that you believe yourself to be so it's like you're in a body you have an ego you have a a a self-identified uh being as separate from other s this conditioning however we could totally take and expand that definition to say societal conditioning parental conditioning religious conditioning uh cultural conditioning right but all of these various layers to your point of conditioning that get placed upon us whether we're aware of them or not you know those things pervade our Consciousness and I think that they make this observation of trying of or at least this this beginning of an awareness to try and decouple shame from our actions um in in a in a sense one of the paths to Freedom really because you with shame you stop yourself others don't stop you because when you feel it you like shame is one at least to me one of these weird feelings that like in a sense it's not I'm not going to say it's worse than pain because I don't want someone to like smash my face with a 2x4 tomorrow and then be like no shame is worse like no it's it's bad in terms of physic in terms of discomfort that the body can experience but it it's pretty gnarly like it's it stings in the moment and it goes with you you learn to avoid it you know what I'm saying and so you'll curtail your own behavior you will limit how it is that you experience in in my story pleasure in order to avoid that shame and but then the problem is that you're not going to avoid it completely you're a human you know we're human beings I'm a human being um so I'm gonna go back to it but then because I'm patterned to have the shame be coupled with pleasure it's like once I go into it there it comes it's going to raise its ugly you can't have it without they're just yeah they're orbiting each other yeah and I think that I again don't think it's human nature but I think it is the human construct at this point for the most part and we're all in Opportunity of alchemizing that yeah and also I think a lot of people are like it's a conversation it's something I've listened to and played with before and now it's to the Forefront again and a different way um but definitely even like going back into like the sexuality part of it yeah totally uh like I can unlock so many things from just like journals of years past where it's like I remember you know me and my young or older sister like not really knowing anything and getting walked in on because my parents were gone they came home we're naked and we're just playing but like they we didn't even really get in trouble but the reaction was shame and embarrassment and and you feel this like little infractions and big ones like all throughout your life and so I think there's just there's a lot there that isn't even like conditioned from a specific entity it's like the fear of having a conversation about something we don't know how to talk about yeah it's the shyness it's the embarrassment or the you know a lot of I just things that are taboo I guess yeah and and you're GNA say something yeah so so I think we're on so we're on the same page with this right I think we have a pretty good under understanding of of these kind of things how they how they are together right okay so I would like to if you're if you're Co with this move the conversation forward a little bit to an area where neither of one of us are prepared for ready yes ready okay so okay so that's the intention so the intention is to get rid of some things anger relationships or release them not anger the assumption that you have to struggle it's really not anger it's not rage it's not it's that Assumption of struggle okay okay so so an assumption of struggle for yourself a uh you know relation you know non-parallel relationships for me you know moving forward is like questions on Where where does that energy where does that assumption how does that transmute right what and you know not sure what this is moving forward right for myself it's like creating having a having the cause and effect of of actions and reactions be positive or at least neutral right in in the next in the next phase and then taking this um and and then the cultivation piece the one that's going to require more awareness in moving forward and we can have this conversation in in 12 months from now and talk about leaving shame in the mirror but for now we're working with it right how here's here's here's the open-ended question I'd like to you know spend the next maybe 10 minutes or so how how how does this how does this H how do you how are you going to go about this or begin to go about this I know you're not going to have all the answers I'm not going to have all the answers things are an unfolding process right because we're going to do them well there are games that you yes yeah you as you're saying it I'm like I I I say it all the time I've been here before and I'll be here again that's the thing I drill into my brain when I'm in a little depression space so all I'm saying is it's it's everything everything's a spiral so I have played games with myself in particular around this and at the end of every week and for a while because it was Co I did it every day but at the end of every week because that was a lot and I was just feeling heavy at a certain point i' ask where was I most embarrassed this week I remember I remember shame was removed of it and it was more what embarrassed me this week and then that was something that could bridge out like if I couldn't find anything I would go to like where did I white lie or where did I want to white lie and edited myself out of it and going back to your original point it's like I want to sign my energy signature into this greater plasmic field with awareness so I'm not going to send a white lie out I'm not gonna because now I'm giving this message that you have to defend yourself because I have to defend myself and now we're going to have to be ashamed of something so whatever that is that was a little like embarrassed or like couldn't find it I would go into something else of a layer of white lies or defensiveness and then the other one if I can't find around that is where am I judging someone right now because that's probably reflective layer of where I would be judged by someone and if I couldn't find where I was aware of myself it's where am I being hyper aware of someone else and that would help me find a cord to just sit with and then do some more things around after the sitting yeah okay I like that yeah yeah and right well because yeah embarrassment like the the the act of being embarrassed is the is the elicitation of Shame right you want to hide you get red you feel like H you know like something that you shouldn't be doing because that's the that's what I mean that's what it is right it's a it's a reflection of being in like a hiding energy is what becomes addiction right it's like that's the that's the Little Portal around it say that again the hiding the way shame and and and pleasure being part of it but not exactly how I'm approaching the like line is like the shame is this compulsion towards the pleasure maybe that's where I would put that but that's what leads into addiction is the hiding and now you have to hide your pleasure and now you're going to hyper intensify how you start hoarding that and the compulsive part around that because you have to hide and it is around addictions but I think it's also around the normaly of ourselves that we feel like we have to hide because we've been catering to the rest of the world in weird [...] up ways and that hiding creates uh a dopamine response when you then engage in that behavior even more oh you're right right the hiding is dopamine too the hi right so like you hide it and therefore it heightens the experience now and so even though you like that thing already now you like it even more and you like it even more because it's like now it's Taboo it's taboo because you've HIIT it and who are you hiding it from yourself yeah so the other thing is admitting that we like a thing yes you know what I mean I like this thing and like and really just like opening that up I enjoy this it could like I every once in a while not anymore I think it's actually really gross but like I had to go through an admitting like I enjoy a cigarette and now I'm like I don't I don't but I had to go through a lot of Shame spiraling and releasing and and that and I think the what moved the needle when nothing would move was that admission I enjoy it yeah okay yeah I mean ul and that's you know so part of the reason why I wanted to do this is that like you know we like to we like to Loop things back around a little bit to our kind of our core Mission here you know and and like have conversations that are enlightening about Enlightenment or whatever and like the tantric path is one of joy it's one of ecstasy it's one of pleasure it's one of bliss and and I love that you said that like the empowerment from this is the ability for us to admit that we enjoy things that these things bring us pleasure that these things bring us joy and yes some of it is an admission that like at least for myself that there are things that we can enjoy we don't have to be attached to them but by it by labeling it that by giving it a name by giving it some power that it loses its power over us I am giving this thing power it doesn't have power over me I enjoy it I can pick it up and and use it feel pleasure or you know whatever put it back and not feel guilt about it because I'm not trying to hide it and not in not hiding it diminishes the taboo and it to your point and I hadn't thought about that before that is coupling with that dopamine response that's Affairs that don't last once they're actually allowed in some ways you know but you're right I never thought about that that exponentiating or potentiating that's the word I want I made up the other one yeah exponentiating you know I liked it I did it works but that is bigger and so when that taboo goes away it doesn't mean that the pleasurable thing isn't still going to trigger you a little bit but you've at least shaved off some of that height yes yeah and they you know they so they do this in there is many tantric practices that are not would would not fit in this like a western view of spirituality you know which we're working on making a new word by the way you know we we'll make one at some point or we'll find one um but some of which is to like when you're when you achieve a certain level of meditative prowess it's not about can you touch that level it's can you maintain that level and then once you have maintained this level can you take it out into the real world can you maintain that level then when and this is real when you're drunk when you're high when you're having sex when you're enticed so they'll say go to a they literally go to a brothel go to a strip club monks regular clothes will go and and and do these things why they're doing this exact thing here here you are moving you you are be attempting to be in the water without getting wet we are wet and we're in the water and I think the acknowledgment that these things are part of our existence takes away their hold on us takes away their their their disempowerment of us as beings who are wanting to not just have pleasure and joy but happiness you know and by by removing this the the grips that things have on top of us we are freed from their from from their their grasp and I like that yeah yeah I'm just you know it's I just thought it something I've never thought of no I can't not in this way not with this linkage I had a a vibrational experience of a couple years ago of like oh my God my like anger is the same as my excitement like that vibration is like it feels the same but it's not it's s and it is it's because of that dopamine response you're getting this double down but I had a recent kind of thing at home that my body started vibrating and physically you could see it and when I finally got outside and went for run I was like oh it's because the way that language came out it was too indu shame and part of it was the shame in me and part of it was my fight against it but it was so big and that energy that vibration just hurt cuz it's both it's not just one frequency it's probably T I can't even touch but all that said it's very similar to that feeling of like when you want more sugar and you've been eating sugar and now you can't stop eating sugar and the vibration is so similar there's texture and temperature differences but like oh my God it's the shame pleasure response where it's like I don't I'm I'm listening to you talk about the monks and it's like they can then be in these situations I'm like oh that'd be like terrible if it was just dead neutral but it's not that it's that they can feel enjoyment without that really crazy compulsive high and that is our authentic nature yeah yeah right yeah to not let it to not let it own you own you yeah to not let it own you and I think I think that is a very good place to leave it uh so Katie thank you so much for for coming on today uh thanks for having me of course of course there will be more um and you know we'll do some more preparation for next time whatever we just question we're just winging it today you know what I mean like this is the Dani right now on some things but you see when I like really have to come up with the answer my brain goes out too many places it's hard to wield it back in you you you'll learn it it it's a it's a skill that you know we have been cultivating for the last multiple but those are really big questions that's that's one of those things you ask me a question like that and I have to write an essay like I need six months for it okay well you know that's if you gave me one of them I could have worked with it yeah well we did multiple but no it was fine it was totally good um audience thank you so much for listening uh you know definitely I'm always interested in hearing what people think about things what are your kind of New Year's plans uh for yourself right because we like to people say new Year New You and I say New Year same you right same [...] same sh yeah same you so let's uh one different yeah so so feel free to hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com uh get into our DMS on Instagram the Jin and Tantra podcast if you know any one of us feel free to uh call us text us uh send us a messenger pigeon or a smoke signal if you want to have a conversation about this because uh this is just what we do so uh thanks everybody for listening uh thank you for tuning in to this year and always for Katie and Eric who isn't here but I'm sure he is in spirit this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the New Year peace [Music]