[Music] hey and tear G and tears those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist okay so um we've been doing this little series of episodes inspired by Jung's answer to job kind of talking about it but also using it as kind of a starting off point to talk about other things related to it and interesting uh kind of uh inspired by it and uh this one is we knew we knew we were going to put the camper in really talking about JC Jesus Christ and how Yung thinks about what he symbolizes but um it occurred I thought I thought this would be interesting for you Daniel and it occurred to me to think well maybe it's important even before we talk about what you know uh JC would symbolize that we would go through and really talk about I guess for my I was doing the show notes for this one so writing the episode kind of what you might call like the JC problem right which is partially like a good thing to have JC because it's Judo Christian and uh you know Jesus Christ both so it covers both the whole thing and um and this episode end up being really interesting for me to think about because I you know I wanted to talk about this like more the sociocultural aspects which I know is really fascinating to you Daniel but also the idea of um some of our more personal reactions and it wound up being extremely thought provoking for me to go through and think about my own relationship to this so maybe we thought we'd dri divide up a little bit the JC problem and talk about it maybe a little sociocultural and then look at a little bit more from the personal side um and I don't know just these episodes that just kind of sometimes explode for me I think was the word I that popped into my head they St start off as one thing and then you realize bang they kind of launch themselves to like another level on something else in my mind and I think that did this for me I started really reflecting back of like my own relationship with Christianity and specifically like my I guess what I would call my breakup with it so I guess be those would be the goals of talking about this the episode and I'm interesting to hear about yeah stuff with this too because I don't think we've talked about we this has been the subject matter but I don't think we've already talked about it like dead on in this way yeah it's come up at at particular points we've shared anecdotal things um stories you know but I don't think in one sort of particular thread if you will yeah or maybe like I think the problem of like like the these you know the the big three religions has come up in different ways but maybe not where we're going to look it like so direct or something yeah so it's weird now because we're recording this and this will probably end up being our Christmas episode Christmas yeah or be close close to it close to our Christmas episode so okay good times Merry Christmas here it is yeah last year we did uh Mary Kay came on and we did one for Ule actually on the U that was nice yeah yeah I wasn't able to make that one but yeah yeah not not so uy today yeah this isn't as ulish but that's a little bit more Wick and Pagan anyways to talk about y um all right so what is the JC problem because Yung does seem to talk about this and uh it's a really difficult problem and I think it's really difficult for our podcast if we get a little meta on this because on the one hand I think we really don't want to be judgmental in podcast we really try not to be it probably would be better if we were maybe it would be you know like people like judgmental [...] people like people to doing hot takes yeah they want extreme things but we don't like to do that I'm waiting to see if he had something on oh no I'm say they want your hot take on a on an issue that's been going on for uh you know 1900 years have you thought about it long enough yet still well you you say something like people like to hear controversial [...] right that's what people like sure right so anyways so we're trying not to be that way it might not be the wisest business Choice maybe not but you know that diving into sensationalism you always have to be Sensational you know so like you're almost saying things to get a rise not even I don't even know if people necessarily believe them they're just saying them to be saying they're saying [...] to be saying [...] as they say yeah yeah I mean like obviously we we would rather air on the side of authenticity yeah hopefully yeah I sometimes notice it myself where I'm like o a controversy and I want to look it is tempting whatever that psychology is yeah yeah yeah I've gotten really good about it lately because now I'm like no I'm not watching any of this [...] I've really cut it and it's been a much more positive effect of my life we do talk about like cutting out these social media things and so on and so forth and I really have done it it's been pretty dramatic like if I'm engaging with something now it's much more of like higher quality substantive stuff and I feel much better like some of the news programs I would watch cut them because you really get to feel like it's just judgmental [...] yeah so we don't want to be judgmental and we don't want to be judgmental especially about other people's spiritualities that I think that part in particular because we know we have things that we're passionate about and it doesn't mean that somebody does can't have a critique on it and I'm certainly open to hearing it because maybe there's something I missed you know or maybe something they missed but you know to bash for the sake of I know better than you inherently don't know better that that that's the only thing I can say you know yeah it's obviously there's going to be like different takes on things and people are coming from different places sure so it's hard to be judgmental about that I think the biggest one came up which was a sort of something we decided over the course of the show of doing this for the few years that we resolved this was a lot of the new Agy stuff I think in the beginning there was a little bit more of an inclination oh yeah to give a little [...] to the new age uh um but we love new age people I love I mean you know and I change change a heart change a heart change your mind we would be probably uh if somebody didn't know it better they would throw us in that category anyways and very likely the book that we're you know that Eric is working on and I'm working on together will likely be sold in the self-help slne AG section very likely very likely so you know we want to be at home with our Brethren yeah I like the idea of saying I'm a little bit more old age but okay you know rather than new age but it is what it is yeah I I was thinking about this whole thing of being non-judgmental and I had a student who was really into this and uh she would use a lot of the new Agy kind of jargon too very thoughtful person very nice person sure and we were in the clinic kind of talking and I can't remember what they called them there's like a whole thing I think you might be part of this little Millennial group or something I think it was with the Millennials or I can't if was Millennials or gen zers or who the hell it was supposed to be well one group is supposed to be considered these like golden children or something that are going to change everything oh Indigo that's it indigo children yeah yeah who's that supposed to be anyways do you um at this it's a while ago I forgot it so at this point they're gonna be older Millennials like myself so you're the you're the indigo people apparently and what were you supposed to do I'm not sure I remember watching a video on it um and and being sort of I don't know like I'm not sure but they say they say that uh indigo children according to pseudoscientific New Age concepts are children who are believed to possess special unusual and sometimes Supernatural traits or abilities they were first described in the 1970s by uh a parapsychologist out of uh San Diego State and that they that their Aura in particular had a more of like an indigo Hue to it and she had not seen that before therefore indigo children do you feel like an indigo child you have special qualities Daniel that we all admire so there's no reason that to I mean maybe I'm not sure you wonder where the stuff comes from because that the phrase rolled off her tongue with such ease I have never heard of this I think I I think there there they say that these these people feel like more spiritually awakened you know that that they're supposed to be here that they have higher expectations you know a stronger sense of intuition um maybe you have a little bit of this that you want to kind of like overturn rigid systems I definitely want to do that I they're creative yeah I don't know if I fit I'm not in that time frame you don't right you don't fit within much of society you kind of like headstrong passionate focused uh psychic abilities but then they also say that like they're frustrated because they don't fit with Society so much so you know you feel that amongst your Indigo Brethren do you feel like there's a like a bonding of Indigo folks I I did not name me as an indigo I'm wondering like I'm more like saying like I look at it and I'm like I almost feel something okay here's like I don't know Indigo or not Indigo I feel like there's like a subgroup of people like all the time who are feeling this way sure yeah yes you know I think there's like some like little like line layer of people you know um this is like a tangent but I remember I was out in California and my uncle who's kind of a quirky Cali person on some level I think it must be just the California influence uh he's definitely like GOP but he'll have like these kind of weird new AG books on the Shelf too and he had one on the occult and there was a guy basically talking about like you'll have it's either five or 10% of the population that will want to be different somehow you know and uh it's a famous writer who was being interviewed by the guy who's writing the book it's a guy named Robert Graves he wrote this thing called I Claudius which is a history of like the Roman Empire empire so if you Happ to know that book this is Robert Graves who said this so the author of the book is another kind of famous writer and he said he was asking Robert Graves do you believe in like psychic powers and stuff and Robert Graves said oh yeah yeah yeah there's that kind of stuff he said and then Robert Graves just dropped a number like 5% of the population will be like this different they'll be in too for their time or something right right and um and the guy who was reading who was writing the book is a guy named Colin Wilson maybe we'll do an episode of him at some at some point because he's an interesting person too and uh he was like really and then he started looking for that number this five to 10 Perc thing and in the intro of the book he he said something like the Viet Kong realized that during the Vietnam war they only had to watch like five or 10% of the prisoners because those are the only people who would really tried to do anything those really people who tried to escape everybody else you could just kind of like they probably won't do much anyways so this five to 10 number kind of hung around there know and there might be just something like that and that's always kind of stood out with in my mind like there's some like lay of people who really want to do something different right and the rest of people probably don't so much or right what do you think about something like that you know that's certainly I mean it's a small percentage of people so you know maybe that number has you know synchronicity synchronistic Tendencies You Know in that love but I think where I want to where I'm going to take it is to bring us back and say that there are multiple ways in which people can have we'll call them powers or as the Eastern Traditions would call them Sid sides not cities s d DH i s powers and some people are more prone to having them based on Karma Merit you know or Karma number one or through uh meditative prowess right by Merit and the tales of yogis and I don't mean yogis like uh people who go to yoga studios those are yogis also but these are traditional yogis people who are outside of society performing things that are just you know mindbending in order to bend their own mind you know that they have they have they're able to do things outside of above as my teacher Andre would say above normal you know above regular and JC was one of these yogis actually you know according to tradition you know according I mean that's the interesting question who was he right that kind of like jumps the answer to the question because I don't know if that's obvious who he was or if he existed at all right you know what I mean I maybe that's like like jumping maybe to the end of it but I mean I think I mean we'll kind of build to it I think like where that comes in is like trying to find the Jesus that you happen to like yeah you know I mean so if you're into the idea then Jesus will become one of these people because Jesus like flexible character right Yogi well he could like touch his toes I'm sure but you know like anyways so okay so maybe that's getting to the conclusion of it because we can share where we're going but maybe we'll build the story to it or something yeah build a story yeah yeah so um okay so on the one hand we don't want to be judgmental about these things on the other hand there's a kind of a deep point that Yung raises he does it in answer to the job he does it in some of his other books um that he writes kind of towards the end of his life probably um where he's saying okay we have this tradition that's been going on for this you know time period and um it's getting to the point where this is not going to work for a lot of people yeah which is a kind of a weird subject matter to talk about for our podcast because it means you're gonna like if we entertain what he's saying it also means that you're saying something about Christianity right and you know you and I both have people that we know and love who are really Christian people and it puts us in kind of a weird spot yeah yeah my family in particular you know so yeah certainly branches of my family we're gonna get we're gonna give it a tumble and we'll try to do this in the most respectful way we can but I think yeah Point that he's making that I think is like the purpose of this particular episode to talk about right is that like once you get to the now this Viewpoint this philosophy this religion was is in a certain sense going to burn itself out for like a a big swath of people and what that means then and this is maybe Yung being like sociocultural person right on the personal level as I was thinking about this I thought well you know I was raised in Catholicism and so were you so we can talk about this in an honest way we can look at it from a point of view of our own experiences needs to be brought up in this right and I don't know how you feel about it now I guess it'll come out over the course of the whole episode right thinking back I felt like well there was good things that came out of this there were good and bad things that came out of this upbringing right um I think it made me open to like more metaphysical beliefs and I thought that's good even though I didn't stay with those beliefs it made those possible for me right so I could believe things that there were parts of the world beyond the material that seemed to be good for me in the long run um you know and other things like that you know it kind of that was positive right there was a certain amount of like ritual and contemplation that I thought was fine because I spent a certain amount of time in church my grandmother dragging my drunken grandfather hung over to sit in the pews right to try to save his uh Soul uh with varing degrees of like non-success in any given week um but I thought that was kind of good I mean I thought my experiences in church I thought they were not bad you know like sometimes I was bored but sometimes I thought it was very contemplative and there was a ritual element and I I think that helped me in the long run that I was able to take sort of these ritual and contemplative things right and then I think even something like prayer where you can like sit around and you're a kid and you kind of pray you talk to God and you talk to Jesus and all these kinds of things I mean I did those things and now in my life I do probably something even similar you can talk to an archetype like we were talking about with Yung so it makes you open to these kinds of things yeah I those are the positives I saw if I like leave the negatives at the door I'm gonna emphasize the positives that's how it was for me I know how do you think about that I mean I imagine a lot of that stuff vies with you do you have other things you want to add to that well I think okay the one part about the belief in the metaphysical is something that transcends my own relationship with it I mean people are like there there'll be science people but most of whom still will baptize their children if they do that like it's you know atheism is growing but there's still a large part and like in the story in the tale of of Christ the Crux of it at least for me was the the super normal is the is the tales of him you know bending reality doing what's five to 10% thing we were talking about earlier yeah like doing the impossible all the time actually and then people believing that do you know what I'm saying so that that I think that was maybe a shift um and that it made it more real it made it more tangible for people it it it brought forth a being who was you know from society but also outside of society because he sort of returned from some you know I don't know long retreat you know he spent like the 40 days out in the desert right well I mean he was they couldn't find him for he was gone for 20 years you know oh you're talking about that way yeah yeah I mean he was gone you know he was he was gone and then came back and now is this you know different nothing stories that talk about from him from the age of like a teenager to when he goes through that's they just there's no narrative around that or something correct correct so but you're you know you're sort of not forced but kind of coerced to believe that this is who this person was and why he is special is because he could do these things you know and because he could do these things then now this is the this is the need of the story okay this is an interesting conversation I wasn't thinking about this part you know you and I do this stuff and then we have our own reactions and you know so I wasn't thinking about this way all right let's go for it a little bit while we're doing it I got really interested in this question like so I'll have to throw it back out to you can tell me what you think about it but do you think this person existed or didn't exist yeah I do actually I do and and where is okay go ahead go ahead sorry yeah but I don't think he's the only one so may so this so my my view on this is different like like and my my view on this is that he's a yo you know he's a yogan he's a practitioner of yoga again not yoga that you're getting at Core Power or whatever local yoga studio you have but that's bad right they're good that's fine I teach yoga the Bendy stretchy kind but the the kind of internal yoga right so we'll take yoga as a as a as a as a union of two opposites of mind and body of masculine and feminine of uh infinite as in Divine and finite as in you as a person who is listening right so that's Union yoga so as a person who is practicing Union via meditation or whatever they're doing fasting whatever they're however the practice is I don't know but when you reach a certain level of practice then your your perception of reality changes and therefore the limitations what you believe yourself to be able to do and or more importantly not do gets a little bit blurry and so people have abilities to do things that are above the normal and hence the story of this one particular Yogi who did all these things that there are many other yogis who were able to do in different Traditions so while some people and this is why I always had an issue with looking at only one person as the only one who was ever to do that in the entirety of History it's like no humans can humans can transcend Humanity in in in such a way that they can do this it's just he's probably the most famous one you know to be able to do that so for me I believe there are multiple christs M multiple christs he's one of the one of a group of bodh satas you know a group of healers if you will so it's a very like kind of like personal vision of you know how you think and feel about this it's very personal sure which I think like I put it in part of the next part of the episode but you never know gonna play itself out like yeah I think growing up with JC and feeling kind of an emotional connection to that figure which I felt and I was like contemplating today and I was like yeah I could still feel that still feel like a little JC in my heart you know um and I've thought about that off and on over the years when I'm like not Catholic anymore or anything like that so it's very personal kind of relationship and I went through the rituals and I'm sure the rituals have some effect right you know baptized and I did all these things I got confirmed because my grandma wanted me to do it it was one of these it was those things you had to do either I think so otherwise your grandma would just like you know like she would be in agony yeah I never did I never did that but I confirmed and it was like and they said like don't confirm just because your Grandma will be upset and we all went yeah yeah definitely we're not going to do it for that reason everybody did for that reason of course they did it for that reason you know you want to kill your grandma my poor like my poor polish Grandma for Eric for for the just two seconds on confirmation for those who are not Catholic so um there's a series of like are there seven sacraments or something you're supposed to do I can't exact number and they're like the baptism at the beginning of Life you do a thing like the first confession which is the first time you go and talk to the priests about you know some awkward thing that you did that they may or may not understand why you feel bad about it you know and they tell you to do some say some hail mares or something uh which are like the little like things little prayer breed things that you do um marriage is a Sacrament amongst this um and then there's one called confirmation and Confirmation happens usually when you're like adolescent right you're like 13 14 or something yeah 12 13 something like this and that's when you really say okay I was raised in this but now I'm really confirming I'm like doubling down or it was a decision other people made for me but now I'm super in and I'm going for it you know and it's really funny if you come from if you don't come from a Catholic Family this you mean you might not obviously what you're saying down you might not know the context of how this works but a lot of it will be like uh my grandma or my mom or my aunt or whoever it will be will be really upset if I don't do this all they'll be see there and literally to be honest worrying about your Immortal Soul they'll be sitting around worrying that's right that you're going to hell my uncle the Deacon passed away a couple of years passed away last year rest in peace Uncle Phil um you know he'd be worrying about me all the time I didn't do this and so you do it you know and uh it's even like you have a I don't did you it's not like you have a huge party or something it's not like a a bot Mitzvah a bar mitz for anything it's do it for this thing and um and anyway so that's one of the that's one of the rituals last rights is another one there might be some other ones in there I'm not remembering six or seven or whatever it is so anyways that's confirmation right I I was getting to was like I think there was a part of me that wanted to find the Jesus I could connect to you know I know did you watch um any of the stuff they did the the TV series of American Gods no okay it's not in the book but it's in the TV series they wrote this scene in and there's kind of like I don't even tell the have to tell the whole backstory it's just that there's a bunch of divinities Norse gods and other gods all walking around America contemporary America right that's the gist of the series it's it's pretty great actually it's Neil Gaiman right uh the writer what's the most famous thing Coraline probably one people would know from Neil Gaiman you you're not familiar with him no okay anyway it's kind of like a interesting writer right sure so um so he has this whole plot device where there's these Norse gods and all these other gods that are all walking around the United States and um they go to uh a party and in the party there's like 60 different versions of Jesus hanging around with the realization that everybody has their own Jesus and they're not the same at all there's a scholar on Christianity AR like named Robert price and he points this out and he says like it's amazing because he say if you go down in the South I've never been down there to see these things but you go to the high school and there's Jesus sitting there like with his arm around like the guy dressed in his high school football uniform so he's like Jesus like the coach you know Jesus or something like everybody takes Jesus and makes him into the one that they want so it's kind of a great it's again it's not in the book but it's in the ser I thought that is so scarly observant you know like that's exactly what it is there's a million jesuses flying around right now on the one hand I guess you could make that a critique and Robert price points this out if nobody can figure out who this guy is who is he right if everyone's gonna have their own version right he raises that question but on the other hand you could say maybe it's a virtue because he's a archetypal figure that people can frame in their own way and the way that speaks to them and price raises that point too I think and it's coming up in the American Gods episode everyone's going to have their own take on who Jesus is I think I felt something similar though because I had an emotional connection I wanted to find the Jesus I could relate to and so when I heard about Gnostic Jesus I was into that Jesus right all of a sudden that was a Jesus I could relate to Jesus the Jesus the Mystic Jesus the Gnostic Jesus the yogan you know like that Jesus I could relate to but it's hard to know if that Jesus existed or not that's the other I guess I'll just do it one second Daniel just to finish the Riff and then I'm curious your opinion because yeah yeah I got I got a good one there's a part of this which is just and I got super interested in it where they were just saying okay there's a group of Scholars and if I get interested in something sometimes I'll Chase it like a dog with a bone I'll chase that thing um and so I was chasing this question some years back because I had never heard these kinds of scholarly arguments before and there's a like a long there's a like a community of scholarly people who are like this person never existed at all this is a completely Mythic character which would sound bizarre except there's lots of examples of like Mythic characters like this I mean there's really good reason to think there's no Moses there's no Moses that never probably even ever happened you know there's like I understand it from listening to the folks who are doing this Godly stuff there's like almost no evidence that there were ever these Jewish people in Egypt let alone that they did this massive Exodus like this thing is probably like a spiritual story and the tradition developed of like making spiritual stories into kind of histories and making them into these kinds of pieces so it's it's a line of things about Jesus in this case that there was no person and they go through it pretty scholarly deep we could probably do an episode on some other time I didn't prep it for this or anything right people are curious but and again that's not like if you if you believe there's a Jesus I'm not saying this to like say there isn't I'm just presenting the right and so you know they go through and there like when you look at like Paul in detail they kind of argue like there's lots of reasons to think that this was a completely spiritual figure for Paul he obviously never claims to have met him and it's not obvious that he even claimed to ever meet anyone who really knew him or something or maybe he ran into some other Apostles or something anyways it's a weird set of arguments and I'll lay it out at some point maybe in more detail to do it full of justice but there's a it's like it's compelling when you listen to it it's not like there's nothing there and it's a scholarly position that seems to be growing in like a little a bit of momentum with this right that this is a Mythic figure you know and it again it seems odd that Mythic figures could appear like this but anthropologically apparently it happens you can get like characters that just erupt out as if it was a historical figure and you realize no that seems like that's a mythical spir spiritual figure now on the one hand that's never really bothered me you know because I don't have a I don't have a dog in that fight right if there's no Buddha I don't I don't care that doesn't change anything for me there's Buddhism that's fine because it's not invested in this person right you know if there's no Buddha it certainly doesn't look like it's a real story that looks like that's made up you know to me that looks like a myth but a myth that's like teaching sure important so anyways I don't have a i this doesn't matter to me that much you know I'm not emotionally affected by that but of course if I was like maybe still in my Catholic days for myself this would have a much more of an impact on me and you know because I would have more invested that there was this person I don't I don't have a thing with that all right anyways I I wanted to finish the Mythic part because sure it's the whole thing up and then okay I'll throw the mic back to you okay so um in the sort of like not Buddhist cosmology but ideology philosophy there's we and we've done EP numerous episodes on these before so we're not going to go super deep we'll just touch on it for a moment the idea of the the three bodies of a of a being or the three layers or three phases of one's one's truest level of being right so the dharmakaya Sakaya nuraya and Jen briefly and Eric you know feel free to clean up my uh ignorance here but the one's experience of their their dharmakaya Kaya meaning body and body is not a great trans I don't think body is a great word for this but we'll call it like aspect and I think that's what we called it when we did the episode so one aspect of your your mind or your soul or however you want to call it and with as they call it a dharmakaya or the reality aspect is that in reality we are all connected to everything all the time and so the experience of this is like transcending your own limited view or limited experience of yourself so you're not just Eric you're Eric but you're everything else at the same time everything everywhere all at once is dharmakaya Right perfectly perfectly put um the syoa Kaya is kind of like a a dreaming body or dreaming aspect of yourself and I don't mean dreaming like when you're sleeping but something that travels a little bit more that you can experience other layers of so if you someone has a a a you know a spiritual or metaphysical Vision or something like that this is the aspect of yourself that is having that kind of experience of moving back and forth that's how I kind of interpret it but the last part the part that matters for this actually is that what they call the emanation body the one the emanation aspect and in one and on one hand we are we are the ne monakaya right now so I am the emanation of Daniel in this life Eric is the emanation of Eric in this life ubiquity ubiquitous audience member the one you know what do they call that and not NPC who I have in my mind who's listening to the show which is you know 55% female and 45% male and is a rough age of you know 39 or something like that you know who lives in the United States but also partly in Europe that's because that's like our audience demographic that you're the emanation of whatever it is that you are but in reference to people who are you know what we call realized right and so whether or not we want to say Christ was a being who was realized or even if other people want to say Christ was God in man form he's still realized either way I'm going to I'm going to concede that point even though I love to to debate it but we're going to concede it for right now that he was a realized being and the emanation body the Nur monakaya for those who would like the the terms because I do um is that you can emanate and as Robert Thurman has said numerous time to as whatsoever to whom to whomsoever meaning you are any source of healing or Enlightenment or Insight or you know some sort of positive in um developmental aspect to anybody whenever they need it in the way that they can use it most readily so if someone is down and they have and they hear their favorite song on the radio you could say that like that is an emation of some healing via music and so when I think about people having different versions of an enlightened being because I believe this to be an em an emanation of this enlightened being well then of course is going to be different it could not be the same because your perspective is different my perspective is different and therefore what we are are going to be able to perceive will be different based on a our understanding our cultural influences our genetics our family all these other kind of things so that it fits well for us because each of us is a very particularly unique puzzle and in order for these pieces to fit they have to change shape and change story a little bit so that they can live within us but to me that's the magic of the nuraya that's the magic of the emanation body of a being who has realized in that they can be perceived by numerous people in all different kinds of ways and yet we're still talking about the same thing so this is how I make it work I love it so okay it's the thing that I I I chuckle uh not because I don't think it's beautiful I think it's beautiful I chuckle because that's the Jesus that we like that's our Jesus yeah that's Jesus the bod satva that's Jesus the figure of Enlightenment yeah do I like that Jesus I think that Jesus is awesome yeah totally into it but I also have would have to acknowledge that that's not my Uncle Phil's Jesus that's not how he thinks about him you know what I mean he doesn't see him that way so I don't know what the hell that totally means uh except to say that like you know that's not that's not the the Jesus that I learned about when I was like a kid or something you know that's not the Catholic Jesus and how would the Catholic Jesus in your view differ from that well it's it has nothing to do with [Laughter] that have nothing to do with each other so that's like that's a gnostic Jesus or something that's a different kind of Jesus you know what I'm do you do you agree with that or you feel differently about I think so I guess I'm just looking just to just to just to to give the other the other the more traditional catholic Viewpoint uh a moment so that those unfamiliar you know what I'm saying like I guess the question like do you see that like as what you were taught as like a Catholic kid that bodh the Jesus is the G I mean that's that's our feeling about what enlightenment is right yeah not what we were taught it's not that's us as adults going and saying okay we're re yes yeah how uh like it's a little psychological question you know for you too but how how important was it for you for your own psychospiritual aspect to like reframe Jesus in that way did you feel emotional connection and you want to re okay so that's I think that's the heart of that right on some yeah so I can say from my um shamanic work with Mary Kay and I've never told the story on here before and I don't think I've ever told you this story so and this happens um so when when I first started practicing Shamanism um you do these we've talked about this with the Carl Young episodes on like journeying and so I think I called it like a journey into oneself or something like this where we talked about active imagination and then actual journeying like shamanic practice of journeying and you know it is not as simple as laying you know sitting in a chair closing your eyes putting on some music or some drumming and then all of a sudden you start having these crazy Visions it doesn't it doesn't work like that there's more energies that are involved in it and so so for me I had a very difficult time uh for the first few Journeys because I felt called to start to begin my journey okay in the church that I was that I kind of like grew up in with my family except that whenever I went to and again this is I'm this is a this is projecting in my mind myself walking okay so I would you know you're you're you're taught to start at a certain place so just again to catch everybody up here you you put on some drumming or someone else will do some drumming you lay down you try and cover your eyes that you're more relaxed and then you're told to go start from somewhere familiar okay and you you imagine yourself in this place even saying the word imagining is not accurate but we'll just call it that for the sake of this discussion you start in someplace and then you're to go wherever you're going to go okay you can go anywhere really but we'll just say you're going somewhere and so we were taught to go we she said go in into the ground somewhere and see what happens when you go into the ground or under the ground so I started in my in the church that I grew up in and there's some stairs that lead to the basement except when I went in the stairs it was just an infinite cases of stairs stacked upon each other it's just unceasing and I came out and I said Mary Kay it's just infinite amount of stairs she's like okay well maybe next Journey try and go up see if you can go upstairs I said okay that sounds good same thing upstair I'm just traveling traversing stairs traversing stairs now again our audience you decide what you think about this story but this happened to me and and I you know there was no psychedelics involved whatsoever she said I understand uh she said I feel as if your faith or your relationship to that lineage is keeping you trapped and not allowing you to transcend into other practices so she went into the church she had a journey where she went to the church with me because she told me go back to the church and stay there don't do anything just sit down and whatever do whatever you're going to do eat this stale bread and so she she came in there and she had a conversation with some of the people who or beings who were there in that church and and asked for my permission to do as I wish do as I choose to do not as I have been sort of ushered to the very next journey I went when I went down the stairs then I was able to go into an underground world of life and you know everything else and I've never had a problem since and subsequent Journeys later I've gone back to the church and had more relationships with the beings who were there you know who were kind of like helping to hold the space and keep the people there I don't think that they're necessarily nefarious in that way but this is a this is a true story you know so I feel like um there are just influences upon us that are really unbeknown to us where we call them ancestral or or you know cultural however you want to call it um but yeah it's a very deep tradition that has a lot of power to it and for me the the the transcending of that was absolutely very important and then my relationship with with Christ the being changed at that moment because before that he was a character that was told that I should believe this story is about and I never wanted to after that the interactions that I've had with him have been very deep not super often but anytime that they're there it's uh it's like meeting an old dear friend that's the best way I could do it and I feel like all those things happening as time has gone on have made him a more palatable character for me as opposed to something that I should do or else or because of you know what I'm saying because of the guilt like because you don't want to disappoint your grandmother or your aunt or your mom or something like that so yeah so reframing that relationship um has been essential you know essential to my own growth spiritually but then has also been essential to my relationship with such so with so much influence from my family's uh I guess I could say relationship with the church and Via me as part of that as well yeah so I think like just like an intellectual curiosity thing I suppose but like when you went after you did the thing with Mary Kay when you went up how did that look when you went up did you go up in the church again too yeah yeah so did that it wasn't staircases anymore andu was that other stuff happening there too the staircase when I when when I went up the staircase the the church was there was another like a second or third tier to the church and there was no roof and it was so once I got to the top I got on the floor we were kind of up in maybe more like uh not like clouds but in the sky you could say and there was a lot more like singing and a lot more like jewels and very beautiful kind of like ornately uh decorated columns and things like this and uh yeah there was you know that was the first time that I met that I could say that I quote unquote met met Christ was was that that day for me it almost has a vibe to me a little bit like what you might call like a Pand or something right yes has a pure land vibe to it yeah so for our audience if you've you know never had an experience like that before like I I hope that you I really I I sincerely hope that people have some things of their own that can make these things move Beyond just words because then the words have meaning because the words come from a very particular place of people's experience I feel like if they're good or if they're deep I will say not necessarily good and if um you know you you allow yourself to be influenced by people whom you trust you know who have your best intentions in mind then then like I never asked for those things it was not my intention to have that happen that's just what happened naturally and you know me I love to be you know and the kind of these like authentic life experiences that unfold and they unfold in their own natural spiritual ways even though I'm not necessarily looking to do that I'm I'm using a native a native indigenous practice that's been around for five or six thousand years started by Siberian shamans I don't think that they were meeting Christ in a in a cloud city you know what I'm saying and yet here I am like in the suburbs of Oak Park having this transcendental experience that might have got me skinned alive 200 years ago so you know what like maybe like part of this episode can become which maybe wasn't the yeah you never know where these things are going to go once we start talking right yeah yeah yeah but maybe part of it is like that it's okay to have the freedom to find the the the Jesus that the JC that you like yes each of us can do that we can find the JC that we relate to you know some of it for me was again when I got interested in I went a little scholarly and I I didn't know I was going to find it so interesting but I did you know once I got interested I oh this is fascinating because you know even within the community people there's some people who really like no there was a historical person for sure and other people like no there really wasn't properly and they can argue this out okay we're not GNA answer that question for sure no but I was like this is interesting to hear what people are saying you know uh uh I'd never heard this stuff before and you know even how people were trying to explore it I thought this is a really interesting question for people to explore yeah spiritually like the way you're talking about this is more like scholarly stuff right yeah yeah yeah it's historians and so on um and I thought well this is fascinating but then I also learned about a bunch of other christianities that I didn't even knew existed one of which was Gnostic and even amongst things that you would say are Gnostic there's a whole bunch of different folks there right and I was like okay this seems to mean to me it one of the things it said was from the very beginning there was a question of like who is this person who is this figure and people seem to relate to this figure and like different ways yeah right some of them were very kind of more like traditional you know uh maybe like when my uncle would be or members of our family would be yeah right yeah but some of the jesuses were pretty wild maybe the jesuses that I would like and I was like Hallelujah that's right there we go preach praise praise I gonna witness that's right you can I was like this Jesus I've been you know this unconventional Jesus and I remember calling like talking to a friend of mine uh I always call him Bobo which is Korean for beloved because he had a Korean girlfriend and we learned this term Bobo so we already always call each other Bobo he's a guy I went to school with quirky character kind of brilliant character uh you know and uh I was like I found nasty Jesus I'm so happy and he was like okay and what was his answer I was saying like he's very like he's very iconic clastic he was against the society so he threw over the the money changers in the temple and he was like you know this like you know I was like describing this Jesus which was not the Jesus I was brought up with maybe or not exactly you know the stories were there but not framed in that way right and I was so excited and he was kind of like was isn't that the isn't that every isn't that what Jesus is and he wasn't raised in that way and I was like no no this is a different Jesus this is the Jesus I can get into you know and on a like a a Visionary level or a you know that sub spiritual experience level I could like look into my own heart and I could kind of I have this thing I maybe you feel something similar Daniel I can we talk about the exper experiential aspect I can look at my heart and there's like a little Jesus there inside I can see him in there and I whenever I see him uh he's always like it's very it's very loving it's very warm it's a very loving relationship I could do it I could feel it right now it makes me a little sentimental feeling almost like I like cry a little bit it's very it's very touching you know um uh and moving but you know so maybe that's part of the episode that I wasn't expecting to talk about but yeah that's the fact that you can do that with this figure when you open space for the these figures you know you can make go to the Buddha that you like that's it find the Buddha that you're into I like a wild tantric ass Buddha that's the Buddha that I like you know other people like like different Buddhas that other people might like really aesthetic Buddhas who want to sit under the tree and kind of suffer it out and whatever they might interested in that Budd and it's obvious that it's not the same character on some level right the [...] knows well that's it that's it but gra you can gravitate to the one you like as some would say when you you know when you open space the Holy Ghost comes through and then uh all the other things come out but I don't know that I believe that but I I do think that like it's good to be able to discuss these types of things a because they're so so prevalent in Society number one and and the these are the benefits so we you know we often talk about like what are this what are the you know pros and cons of organized religion or or you know whatever organized structures in general but you know having these kinds of discussions allows people to hopefully change the way that they are influenced by these things and that if you hear stuff that you know because I think even even the name Jesus is kind of cringy for a lot of folks you know you get a lot of eye roll and things like this but like in essence it's less about for me it's less about that particular name and more about the character you know more about the tale around the character that is certainly not set in stone it's not set in stone at all like the people were not there no one knows it's written in on the back of like napkins and rocks and whatever in a language that doesn't exist anymore trans translated 17 times and then some dude said oh yeah these books are good and these books are not good cuz these stories fit better together and then we're we're taught like okay real quick down I think these these stories fit our particular narrative better there you go that's correct these are the stories that fit our narrative those other stories were not into those stories yeah we're not into those because they don't fit and so it's it's important to wrestle with these things and then decide if it has value for you because then if you can find Value in it if and it doesn't mean that you have to if you can find Value in it then whenever you hear the name or you see a cross or you see something it's not something that you you do an eye roll with or that you're like ah man you know like it's not cringy it's a remind for me it's a reminder of Enlightenment you know it's a reminder that like we too can transcend it's a reminder that like being outside of society can be positive that we can you know break through our own limitations and be some sort of like crazy compassionate person who gives him who gives themselves for the you know betterment of society if that's what you you know if that's what you believe but that's at least this is the to me this is like the the what I want to call a practical Tantra and turning something from what it appears to be to giving it to giving it meaning that allows me to deepen my own practice and awareness on a daily basis yeah I think it's the same thing with like again if you take character like a Buddha like there's a there's a version of a Buddha story where he you know almost starves himself to death you know because he's trying to be such an aesthetic he's trying to be so rigid and so aesthetic right yes himself so hard that he almost dies that's part of every story but in some of the stories he's like probably met by like what we call like a teini like a tantric goddess who comes along and says no this is crazy town where do you doing and like feeds him and like they probably make love in some of the stories under the tree right and and like I like that Buddha that's the Buddha I'm Into You know what I mean um and maybe like part of the thing is like yeah there's a freedom to there's a freedom to move within this and then I guess you're into a space if we get back to the union take a little bit now you're in an archetypal space right now you're in a space where I'm G to find the spiritual image the iconography the archetype that speaks to me yes right and then you have to kind of in some ways admit then and you were talking about this in this way that now we're talking about something that transcends being a historical figure now yeah like now we're talking about something else right but maybe that is kind of the argument on some level or the the problem that the episode kind of started off with too maybe a little bit right like because you have to like allow yourself the freedom to do that and I don't know if a lot of people necessarily feel that freedom to do that right you know yeah and um or even like okay so I I'll throw some of the Yung stuff out and we'll see how this all fits together as we do it but it's a great subject I'm I'm glad we did this this way and I'm glad it went this way I mean we've been a little bit more enlightening the way that it's even the way that part is yeah more enlightening way to think about it and we've been talking about this I mean this has been coming up on and off of the episodes for years really and you know we we're we want to T we want to tackle things that are societal which this is societ and we want to tackle things that are you know very prevalent because I think if you can turn like I was mentioning earlier but if you could turn major themes in in your life in in the in the collective and make them something that has value for you even if you're not like totally attached to it in some way but they help to be like Road road signs you know go this way turn that way do you know what I'm saying they become they become more um synchronous synchronistic and and then the I I mean for me the more synchronistic that I I experience my life the the more that I feel like that the universe is speaking back to me and that that to me that has value because then I feel less alone I'm reminded that I am I am part of the dharmakaya I am part of the the infinite being you know I'm reminded of the the Eternal subconscious which or the infinite subconscious which uh unfortunately doesn't always come up when I'm taking test however so inly get that information when I need it yeah you know what let me open it up a little there in the akashic records that's right I need to dust my connection off a little bit my uh blow a little dust off the connection thing to make the wires c yeah I think um I want to do it like a maybe some episodes coming up on like William Blake The Artist and the poet and and you know he has an interesting relationship to this too where he's like well these stories are these Bible stories that's not literal stuff that's poetry that's stuff that we can interpret and figure out what it means yeah all right so I guess like uh I'll throw the Yung part out and then we'll see how it all like like coalesces together by the end right so what I think Yung starts to talk about is I guess what we're talking about too that the vision that he got of Jesus wasn't going to work anymore you know and he was raised in the very religious family and his um autobiography he talks about you know these theological arguments he had with his father where he started questioning right and so he saw this like what would be like I think maybe we we proposed an answer to the JC problem which is find your own Jesus yeah right or SP find whatever spiritual figure fits to you for you yeah which is not surprising that's gonna be our answer do you but as a sociological thing Yung says this creates a big sociolog olical problem right right because you're going to get I guess the The View represented for him by his father or maybe like for me and my family by my uncle yeah which is much more of a traditional view right yeah and he saw coming it seems to me and I think you know I think there shows a lot of foresight on his part he says well if the myth stops working for a big mass of people then aspects of the myth will disintegrate and fall apart right and you'll kind of have probably like some kind of vacuum right and I think what he saw was that you'd get a lot of like atheism that would explode and like hyper materialism because when the spiritual myth falls apart there's kind of this vacuum right and it's partially falling apart for a lot of people probably because it like the more and this again it's hard to talk about but the more my uncle's view of that if I just use my uncle as this isn't going to work for a lot of people because it doesn't it doesn't Vibe with their mentality anymore right it won't stand up to sort of the more scientific parts of how people are going to think right the way the mentality of the culture is going this is going out of sync right yeah and um because of that it's going to fall apart for people and then what happens is now you have like kind of a vacuum thing a spiritual vacuum right or probably what Yung would feel like because he's so obsessed with like polarization yes you'd have a polariz you'd have atheists on one side and traditional religious people on the other side and then bang you have nothing but like a huge Clash yeah of something that's going to cause like a real sociological problem right that's what he kind of saw that the older version which to be honest I thought when I thought about the words I thought like the Jesus I got from my uncle was kind of appropriate for me as a child you know and when I was like what's the s what STS Paul's thing when I was a child I did childish things but when that became an adult I put aside childish things you know so that view wasn't going to work anymore and um it wasn't going to hold up to the other parts of you know I think how any of us might go individually but also where the society is going right yeah not in that space anymore where that myth is going to work and and so then you get this explosion of this atheism which I wanted to be kind of careful about too because I have lots of atheist friends I want to be judgmental about atheism either except in our the way I think Yung forsaw it which I think is accurate you get this massive polarization and people are kind of put on one side of the other this polarization and you you know I guess in our episode the way it turned out is we're trying to like Scratch Out of Space to have an individual interpretation yes that's that's new for you that works for you yes right to come up with the V the vision that works for you but as a sociocultural problem it's polarized as [...] it's polarized yeah correct and it's really a problem and I think Jung seem to foresee that you know the old myth isn't G to hold up the new myth will be scientific but also very materialistic without a lot of room for things Beyond just you know the raw material stuff well this was hard to get to a spiritual place from that this was you know this is kind of a bit of an extension from the the sentence that kind of had my mind going from last episode was uh does the culture create its divinity yeah yeah yeah you know and the influence that the that Society has on its on its God if you will on its on its thing but actually Eric I think I think this is a good place to pause here well maybe maybe we'll just like you got you got a couple more minutes maybe wrap it because it gets the real or you have the Boogie no it's not that it's just that like going doing the the atheism part uh I don't want to I don't want to Short change it you know because I feel like because I basically what I'm saying is I want to have a I think what the the question that you brought up about like atheism and materialism is a little bit of a longer a little bit of a longer you have more you want to say about that you're feeling like yeah okay okay cool yeah and so we've kind of like we we've done we we we're kind of like all over a not all over a little bit but I like I basically what I'm saying is I like the discussion that we had and I don't want to add on to I don't want okay you want you want to put a cap on it so the cap around the guess is something like okay there's a well okay we'll we well there is no CER yet no no and that's okay talk about the atheist part okay yeah I have more to say about that than I do okay cool yeah yeah yeah for sure so I think this this is a good place to stop because there's a yeah just to me it seems like that all right all right cool you know so Eric you know thanks I mean this is this is this is good you know I like I like having this this discussion on this because it's prevalent for so many people whether whether you're a a Christian you know judeo-christian practitioner or not you're in the world of judeo Christian practitioners and it it influences you it wound up being a Christmas episode Charlie Brown it's it sure it's it certainly did like ice skating now with our little dog Snoopy and the piano can play in the background because it is a Christmas episode the theme of the Christmas episode is find your own Jesus yes that's right find your own Jesus right yeah yeah out there make one up for yourself that's right yeah supposedly it's out there for you so you know AR I mean the Ying thing would be like once you find the archetype it'll talk back yes and I for my experience can say it does yeah that's what you were describing essentially right the archetype will talk back they'll start to appear in your life that's a crazy thought but you know that's the idea and then like you said the episodes before the universes start to whisper sometimes it'll start to like clang some pots together like you know like blow some trumpets and really try to get you to pay attention yeah exactly exactly I think that's a beautiful thought okay that's cool I get why you want to end it let's end it on like that note yes Merry Christmas Charlie Brown yeah that's right yeah yeah um so you know for Eric always as always thank you so much for uh for uh doing this with me to our audience thank you for thank you for listening thank you for watching if you're on YouTube uh like subscribe hit the notification Bell if you're getting us on a podcast platform you know definitely I think you could subscribe and some of them uh if you're on Apple leave us a a review it definitely it helps the show I mean all of it anything that any interaction that you guys have with us helps the algorithm get us to more people and as we say before you know we don't ask for any kind of donations or anything like this it's a labor of love uh today we are brought to you by us so we are our own sponsors on Sesame Street we're brought to you by the like the letters GC right that's right is brought to you by the letters g and C that's right and the number three three number three that's good yeah that's totally true um so you know this will this will come out a little a couple days before uh Before Christmas the week before Christmas so for those of you who are celebrating uh any of the holidays at this particular time you know happy holidays for all of y'all uh always wishing peace and blessings to you and your families and you know everybody else in your lifetime we appreciate everybody listening to us this year and and all the previous years um you know we we Mark time not necessarily in calendar years but in years that we've been doing this show um so it's like you know it's like three and a half years for us but you know we really enjoy doing it we get a lot out of it and we definitely love the feedback so if you want to hit us up uh Jin and Tantra gmail.com hit or leave a comment in the YouTube or you know hit us up on Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast we'll take all of it we take I you listen we I see everything I try and respond to everything so good bad or and different no problem I'm I'm happy when people are listening so even if you don't like something holler at me let me know you know I I always will listen uh I may not act but I'll listen for sure and anyways uh for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch y'all on the next one peace