foreign fellow G and here's those of us who like our spirituality with they twist so we are doing an episode we finished up a series on enlightenment we're moving on we want to do an episode that is really about something Innovative and a little different slant creative that uh Daniel primarily wants to share especially about what it means for human beings to have egos specifically based on e-g-o-s that's the foreshadow and you know uh Daniel shared so very like uh very thought-provoking idea so anyways that's our that's our concept for the episode and I mean I think what you were talking about Daniel is you felt like it's kind of a word that gets tossed around a lot and uh you had some thoughts on that so yeah for sure so you know I we hear it right the word gets used a lot this person is egotistical or this person is an egomaniac or even in like spiritual circles I think they'll talk about it like you have to overcome the ego you must kill the ego you must transcend the ego you know and it's one word that gets that's used in different scenarios all the time relatively ubiquitously but I don't think the context of that as much the language that we use I don't think there's much context and people just use stuff without I think going into the more like deeper meanings as to what it could represent not just for oneself but for people like in for people in general because it is sort of uh it is sort of an archetype of our personality actually you know um it's like saying depression right we have a we have it we know what that looks like and feels like maybe within us or people who we're close to or you know whatever we can kind of feel that but this is something that seems to be more psychologically based and um my contention here today is that it is but it's so much more so it's kind of an interesting slant on it so I guess part of what you're saying to me would be like even if you talk about something like depression that means different things to different people yeah and even in our little Chinese medical world which is you know one of our home bases and doing this to share you know like one person's depression in Chinese medicine is not another person's depression correct different kinds of depression and actually like a number of them and they're not all the same and they have to do with like maybe even different physiological mechanisms behind them let alone like psychological and they take a word like ego and I think that's one of the interesting things like you were pointing out it's just that like people use that in many different ways and so you know depending on the area of life you're looking at people will Define that thing in different ways right yeah yeah yeah and so uh we're kind of like I'm gonna so we're gonna just give a basic definition for the ego I'll give two of them one in cycle analysis and one in kind of philosophy because you know we're gonna do our best job at being good University of Chicago students the Maroons subsequently wearing a maroon shirt if you're watching another video you know go back to our Mary Kay first episode she was like you know when I went back into undergrad you had to find every single thing in the beginning you know and you're like yeah yeah the conversation so yeah in cycle analysis this is the part of the mind that what they say anyways or at least Oxford uh says it mediates between the conscious and unconscious and is responsible for reality testing and a sense of personal identity so I think the the part the parts that stick out for me there Eric is like the the the mediation between conscious and unconscious and like that that barrier between that I think that fits moving forward with with what you know I'll bring up in a minute and um reality testing is sort of ambiguous to me like I'm not quite sure what that exact with that reality testing like what is that is there a part of my mind that has like a test tube and a beaker you know and it's like all right here we go let's see what this happened you know like if the little scientific part of it that comes out with a geiger counter and whatever yeah yeah it says ego as the kids say that one doesn't really hit right for me you know I'll like kind of give a take on it like in My Little feedback on that sure um I won't you know I didn't want to like like we talked about earlier I didn't want to have the psychology run away with the episode but I'll throw my two cents yeah sure and then we'll just say and then sense of personal identity yeah then that'll fit with moving forward so that's kind of one part um and then the other I'll tell you what one that's where my little psych thing in real quick before you get to the like the other part of it okay so you know like I said I don't want to have like I want to talk about just this a little bit I you know I was looking at like that we always shop talk ahead of time you know we look at our show notes that we share with one another and we kind of like okay what do we have to say about these things and um there's a lot to Daniel like that you have to say so I don't want to make a big thing about it but I am giving a little preview for our relationship episode series that we're gonna be heading into sometime quite soon the uh the clock is a ticking and uh so that means we have to prep that [...] and um and it's interesting because I think in those episodes we'll be talking about a few major psych people so if you like some psych people that's in the offing a little preview we'll talk about certainly Freud we're going to talk about Jung Carl Jung the great Carl Jung another great figure that a lot of people might not know this guy named Wilhelm Reich who's a very interesting character and a little bit about one of my favorite Carl Rogers who pops up here uh here and there in our episodes and the funny thing about that is they all have different things to say about relationships so that's the preview I think to the relationship part um but they also have different things to say about what an ego is and what's in the conscious and the unconscious and so I think we'll go deeper into it I think for Freud he was mainly interested in the idea of like what people internalized that were either like societal values that are so deep you don't even recognize them yeah and how that relates to more what you might call like animal instincts so that was sort of his take that the ego has to mitigate between these two things on the one hand we have these sort of biological drives and needs that are there and then we're also socialized creatures and that doesn't always fit you know the biological drives are always going to fit to like what the social Vibe is going to be that's just the complexity of living as a human being you know I mean um as our beloved Bobby T says uh Enlightenment is learning how to deal with complexity so uh uh and I have someone else beloved to me who like has been pointing it out lately but in any case uh you know the idea is that you know that's that that's where this reality testing thing sometimes pops up in the psych literature not that we want to spend all day on it but that's where it pops up okay you know because there is this idea part of the ego is gonna like the way for I thought about this part of what the ego is going to try to do and to try to figure out like okay there's this drive that are kind of biological and then there's like sort of the social conditions and the uh the ego the drives that are biological are more like immediate you know and they're probably like pleasure based right well yeah big picture wise some of that sex and we're gonna do some sex episodes some of that's like if someone really pisses you off there's some animal party that wants to like go at them like a howler monkey yeah you know but you can't so so the reality testing part was sort of the like okay then you have all these internalized things that are like um the ideas the values the proper behaviors and the culture where you're from and the ego has a reality test that [...] out to say okay whether I want to do what what's appropriate for me to do how do I figure this out that's the reality testing idea that he threw out there and there's probably something to that right yeah yeah I think that in inherent underlying part of that is that like the deeper ass part and I guess he would probably say the ID at that point right yeah that's the yeah that's the the it right like in the German he had it it's just like es that's the word it like these animal feelings that people have yeah that right like that's a large he gives that a larger Drive yeah for sure I mean he's obsessed with it he's obsessed with that and so then you can go in this case it's kind of like a uh a confusion uh persp uh I don't know a confusion filter making a it's a mediator or something yeah making it fit in reality I'm I had this idea this thing called the super ego which I'm going to talk about some of the time but you know just the idea like you have a conscience which is kind of like the superego so that's like your inner Confucian person going wait a minute you know don't go too out of balance and yeah that's not the way the youngest daughter should behave or the middle son isn't you know like that kind of [...] that's confusion stuff yeah uh okay that's that's that real quick Carl Carl Jung has this idea that there's this whole interim imaginative world inside that's the collective unconscious idea for another day for us that's interesting because there's different things potentially Consciousness that's a lot of spiritual kick to it from the medical side of us that will be interesting the unconscious kind of as the body itself too yeah the body stores I think some of the stuff that you're going to find interesting in your things for a different day and then on the identity thing we'll do a little bit about Kyle Rogers and relationships but he has this whole idea of like self-concept which is kind of like an ego idea but he thinks that it can go wrong a lot of the time which I think is part of your idea too that a lot of times this ego or self-concept thing just like goes wrong and certainly that's a big deal in Buddhism and a lot of spirituality too anyway so that's the kind of like okay the two second riff preview of what we'll talk about so you know just to throw some ingredients in the pot for what we're cooking yeah no I think that's right yeah that works well that's what I wanted that's what that's exactly what it is you know and it's it was ironic because we're like we're uh I think we were joking we haven't seen each other and I don't know how long actually in the same space but we like sometimes run parallel thought patterns and parallel lives as people who work on projects like ours do and uh it's really funny because all the stuff you're bringing up here I was like oh these are all the dudes I want to talk about you know for the part of the note so I'm going to write for the relationship stuff so yeah synchronicity was synchronizing that's right as Carl Jung would say so that's the psycho a psychoanalytical part the other part is the philosophical definition um and they they just gave this a quick few words it says a conscious thinking subject and which to me leaves so much almost more you know on the plate right as a possibility that we won't dive too much into but we will get we'll touch this for a moment right so in order to have a subject there must be an object right so what then is the object so I'm gonna assume that the external world is the object which inherently gives Credence to all of the sort of Buddhist ideas that things are subjective right yeah you know it's funny I was looking through you know your thoughts in all of this right and I was like okay so at the end of the whole thing because this will run away with an episode too but it would be cool to talk about those Buddhist schools of thinking and they're very experiential too but sometimes it's called Uh yogachar experiential School where people at these insights of like wait a minute the difference between the subject and object I'm partially making it up with my mind at least partially and maybe all of it right I think I'm seeing a bunch of objects but I might be really just seeing projections of my own mind in some way right yeah um it's also funny because of the parallelism because I think when we do the relationship episodes I also want to talk a little bit of like some existential psychology sure and I was just doing research during the week slightly prepping you know into some of my own Curiosity on like uh the great philosopher uh Sean Paul sart and you know um and uh his long-term partner and other great philosophers Simon dubov and they're interested in this thing called not only existentialism but phenomenology Recon just look at like your own subjective experiences and obviously we're doing a [...] ton of phenomenology all the time it's a fancy sounding word but it really just means like looking at how people experience the world yeah which again is part of that sub job subject subject object thing you know and it probably kicks in the realization of like wait a minute a lot of what I think is the object is probably like the subject right yeah yeah yeah so that's the question you're asking so I think we'll be chipping away at that I think in the Buddhist thing maybe at the end after we kind of like talk through stuff but uh I think this relationship will come up like this is going to be in our relationship episodes for sure so it's funny because a lot of this stuff I was like damn we're hitting you're bringing up things that I know we're gonna be we're coming to my mind too you know like okay this is stuff we're definitely gonna be talking about so um yeah so this idea then of like a subject and object right as like an internal experience that one is having versus their their outside experience and then the merging I think between the two in what way is kind of how I'm gonna frame this idea of our our egos and egos you know hey Daniel before we totally get into it I wanted to throw another person out for you that's slightly a preview but I also thought you'd find her really interesting so short thing but I thought when I looked at like how you were thinking about this I thought oh this is relevant for what Daniel's saying too and she's also been on my mind in the past week so cool just to do it for a second yeah yeah so it's this uh Dr Kim tall bear she's uh kind of this amazing intellectual figure if you do a little search on YouTube a bunch of videos and reviews would come up and she's kind of a fascinating person so she's a professor at the University of Alberta up in Canada but her tribe people in in roots are in the peoples of the Dakota Zoo so she's you know grew up directly within that Dakota Sioux culture and you know had you know like experience between the two cultures she says a really funny thing she says basically like she realized at a certain point her whole career was doing anthropology on white people I thought that's so perfect you know so true and I I thought like okay me too my whole life is also anthropology of white people ironically enough trying to figure them out um but so her work is really fascinating in terms of this idea of relationship from the relationship side it's gonna be really interesting to look at in terms of the idea of like relationships Beyond just normativity she's a big proponent of looking at that and she has this idea for preview of what will come up in future episodes this idea of what she calls settler love or settler sexuality kind of this idea of well we'll save it that's a it's an interesting phrase though and has a lot to do with like the way she sees how people have to live their relational lives as being part of sort of like Authority authoritarian structures that were also the same kinds of structures that subjugated her people so we'll look at it you know it's an interesting thing to talk about but the part that I thought that was really interesting for what you were talking about was her idea of relationality and I couldn't help thinking about the shamanic part of your personality too Daniel when I was like thinking about this a little bit because um there was this whole thing about like she kind of brings at this point that once this ego feeling gets so strong it just naturally sort of psychologically starts to create this world of objects you know part of that world of objects is like having this sense of like a separate me and it cuts you know what I mean and uh uh there's like this old Beatles song like a George Harrison thing I mean mine I me mine all of a sudden this starts you know and uh in the relational side obviously that's something like you know uh we look at we create ourselves and then we create their objects of you know that are ours my lover my significant other my kid my this my that you know like that part kicks in um which I think is so deep for the things that I know are close to your heart uh in terms of that splitting but the other part I think that's even like is much close to you know like both of our hearts too is this idea of like this includes splits with like the natural world that are so problematic in the culture that there's this whole thing of like uh once you go I mean mine then all of a sudden the world becomes mind this becomes my property my land my resources my this you know what I mean and she's really big on this idea that this is like a kind of the root psychological and psycho spiritual problem even though she doesn't use that that spiritual word and the other part I thought you would find really interesting so like she worked a lot in environmentalism and the whole idea is like yeah that's the problem from like a Dakota Sioux perspective eventually there was this idea of this I mean mind ownership and what she tries to say in the Dakota suit thing and I'm wondering if you feel this way as a shaman too this idea that even the language is problematic because she says when you speak in the language of her people it's all relational you don't get this language and so therefore you don't get as much of this cutting up of the world and then you don't get that subject object split and this possessiveness correct yeah that's destructive that kicks in so anyways I wanted to throw it out too because she's kind of fascinating and ironically enough I was just listening to her this week and I was like wow this is exactly what Daniel's talking about yeah the language is important which is why we do this and you know sort of a related thing and then we're going to get back um in the in in quechua you know it's a South American sort of native tongue and that gets spoken by a number of different tribes but in particularly the sort of like Ayahuasca tradition that I'll you know tend to work with more than others known as the shipybo tribe and they're probably one of the longest standing kind of most well-known tribes that work with that medicine they don't have descriptions for not good they don't have descriptions for bad oh yeah they just say like not good that's that's the best that's the best they're gonna do you know not healthy but they don't have you know what I'm saying they don't have words for like terrible or they they it's not in their language and one of my friends Remy who was on the podcast a while back um yeah episodes called kumankaya he said that when he speaks in that language it changes his mind it almost makes him happier because the words that he's the language that he's using is totally different um same thing there's another book by uh uh a guy named Martin prechtel it's called secrets to talking Jaguar where he kind of gives his his life and he's a half Native American half white he goes in South America really great writer but one of the things he says is that there is no uh possessive terms so it's not our land it's land yeah my house it's home you know what I'm saying like so there's a definite difference here but which is you know what we do that you know when we speak on here we're speaking intentionally for sure obviously we joke here and there and try to lighten it up a little bit but the things that we're bringing are of language based intentionality like we're using specific words hopefully most of the time to try and bring a boy and try and bring a point home because language is relational right it it fits inside of a a container when talking about some energetic thing or some philosophical mind construct and then it's sort of stuck in there like a cage and then when it gets when it leaves off of that then you have to almost like start a new thing what it uh there's a quote I like it says um but I'm not gonna remember it but something about it doesn't matter we're moving on the funny thing was like talk about quotes my mom I think got it for me somewhere and it was like sort of a T-shirt and I can't remember which figure it was It was kind of one of the great sort of uh you know uh indigenous Native American figures but she had it in the t-shirt and it was just like about the impossibility within you know uh uh Native American culture or you know um to like think that you owned land just how crazy that was yeah and I wore it around for years and that you know like it's the way that those words rub off on you even sitting on your own chest yeah oh I think like you know it's like you look at them you're like yeah it's crazy you know once you see that it's just a bizarre idea why would you even have that idea yeah it's so crazy the quote is uh I think he says language is like throwing a net into the ineffable oh that's beautiful yeah that is very pretty beautiful So based based on all of that okay just one last thing about this I want to just ask you in the shamanic thing and you know I don't want to you know again but just because you talked about like there's no bad do you think that's just because of an influence of like well it's not a that's their language within the language you have to know language yeah but like well I guess probably would connect to shamanic thought though right because that's the belief system within the thought well that's their the you know what survives from a culture is you know their medicine their artwork their language right you know what I'm saying so this is part of part of their medicine and how they I mean but it is it is part of their culture as well yes I'm like the subject to object thing just because we end up talking about dualism right yeah and you know dualism has so many meanings to it but the thing that just hit me from what you're talking about is like you know we live and we're all brought up in this culture which is like very dualistic in terms of like good bad too you know what I mean like we got like in the culture the idea of like the ultimate bat you know some little uh sitting out there that's like not just bad but like bad right all capital capital b a d yeah and yeah like you sort of I can remember like you know there's something like in Zen when I first started doing it and then it depend with this world too I remember talking to people about this especially people who came from really strong uh you know Western religious backgrounds it was a lot to like give up that idea of like bad you know like it's in there and so people feel a lot of guilt they feel a lot of Shame they feel a lot of this around this bad idea I think it's something that I can imagine you and Mary Kay talking about and maybe we talked about in one of the Mary Kay episodes in some ways already you know perfectionism and having to be all perfect and you know otherwise you're bad and this whole idea of like uh feeling bad like I I'm guilty and maybe guilty for like who you are and what you want I was talking to someone you know that I love a lot in the past week about this and just this whole idea of like guilt feeling bad sure who like you really are you know I mean because you can feel bad down to the core or something yeah I think you have to have that concept of even like feeling bad you have to have some dualism or something right yeah but I guess that's part of what you're trying to explain with this ego thing too as you go through it yes but no because yes and no because the other part is that like that but there is a thing as ethics yeah that's right I'm saying so like well yes there yes they all dualism for sure exists and it does make it can make people feel bad for sure but and then that that that is not mitigating of like behavior that is more apropos for compassion and existence you know yeah but it changes different different ways different applications but there is something interesting that just in the sense that like what's ethical or not ethical in different places very different so there's that one feeling of like well let me like not harm people right let me not like just be an [...] yeah about things that's different than like uh I'm gonna feel bad for other reasons where you start saying well is this really bad or not bad actually correct no that's a weird question correct that probably does relate to the whole idea of an ego and it even gets back to some of the psych stuff because once you start internalizing values you know depends on what you've internalized yeah well let's we'll see yeah so it's perfect right yeah so so I want to give a little bit better understanding of this um apparatus right this sort of idea of and so I'm going to refer to it as our egos e-g-o-s and we all have some various facets of it right and what is egos stand for because it's an acronym and you know you'll see it in the title of the podcast and I'll leave it in the description right egos this is the existential Guardian operating system so it's kind of like a program that we have within us and and all right so why the why do I feel the need for this delineation and and I could say that after reading about trauma from like a psychological and societal perspective and then diving into some sort of more modern Chinese medical texts I ran across some similarities in the discussion and rep and response to kind of treatment of trauma working with trauma something like this and mainly that it's not that the act itself but how we respond and live with it thereafter now I'm not minimizing the effects of various traumas that people have and to say well it doesn't matter what happened it's what you do with it afterwards I'm not saying that there are definitely pull yourself up by your bootstraps and yeah we're not this is not some kind of like weird Republican you know thing right that's not real in life you know what I'm saying um oh I'm sorry yeah you put the books bootstrap things in the actual notes I didn't mean to jump the line I did yeah you're good I didn't even realize you said it just popped into my head too yeah because it becomes because it because it's such a it's such a you know like whack-ass quote you know what I mean like it's just such a tripe set of words anyways um I'm really interested where you're going to take that because this is obviously we're talking a lot about trauma now in the culture in so many ways which is good right this is being discussed and but you're talking about like uh nuances around it and stuff so I'm curious to see where you're going with it yeah so so as so so I want to say that like the effects of these experiences shape shape us in one way or another good or bad for better or worse hence this kind of act this hence the acronym the acronym right and it's my further assertion that like the idea of ego or as I'm calling it egos is a response mechanism actually right so it's a response mechanism to our experiences now whether we want to call those experiences trauma or you know phenomenology experience like however whatever act whatever whatever we kind of internalize in the process of our growth and development exactly that this this then system so if we think about it like a like an air defense system or some other kind of like I don't know laser alarm that Tom Cruise has to go through and and uh Mission Impossible or something like this you know yeah lots and lots of little lasers facing everywhere and Catherine Zeta Jones has to like sexually claw sexually yeah crawl their way through it she's getting old she's getting to the Sean Connery like drools as she's doing it or something yeah that old movie yeah she's working through the ego of the of the of the museum you know yeah but um okay so then all right so this is this is kind of like my assertion right that you haven't you have exp everybody has experiences right and this is the response to it however so wait really quick Daniel yeah then it's the G part that's particularly important and part of this right it's guarding something it is part of a defensive mechanism psychological apparatus and you're the coin of the phrase yes it existentially protects the person correct and it guards and so it's kind of operating like in a wary way yeah and it's always running yeah yeah yeah and it's a program and you know if we're going to talk about it we're going to go back to our Hardware versus software right discussion yeah I definitely thought about your default mode Network fascination with this too yeah so so I want to say okay so all right so let's just for argument's sake say that this is a truism right for right now or some version of it is true right well when when does it start right we think oh well you're talking about trauma so it must be when you're in in childhood and actually the answer is no I mean it does start in childhood because that's when you start so it has to start at some point right that's the beginning of the clock but when when does the clock actually start it starts with the people who created you and who created them and who created them and it goes back further and why why do I say this because there are so many you know learned behaviors that we observe and just learn through osmosis and then re recreate as we go on you know what I'm saying and not just behaviors but like ways of being you know the way if that we are growing up if we grow up in a poor a more a less wealthy area you know or if our parents grew up in a less wealthy or even like war-torn country immigration you know all these various possibilities that we might be subject to not necessarily in our own childhood but in others and you know the books that I've read definitely talk about this but I could say from my own perspective you know my family came here I wasn't born yet my mom was about 12 or 13. but they have this a different mindset around money and like keeping everything really tight and getting what you need because you got to supply for so many people was that like part of like your Palestinian Roots going back yeah exactly this and I was talking to my mom about just like you know money finances whatever she's like you're the son of an immigrant I would expect you to be no different than how you are and it just it just hit me I was like oh well yeah I for you know we forget because we're in our own life and we're growing up and so on and so forth and like those things influence us there's been and there's no two ways around it so um to be aware of this I think is is kind of like the the beginning place that we can kind of like start to become conscious of how we're acting and interacting in the world and then you take this inherited thing right inherited behaviors inherited influences and then you have your own individual Karma and stuff like this for how you're going to be then you exist now now that you have all that and then you're you you're Eric you're in the world and you have your experiences and for you it was you know kind of a violent household and uh you know sort of like I'm not gonna say a sketchy area but like you know not exactly uh you could say white trash or maybe you can't I can't you can't as we were joking before the episode unfortunately those are my people yes they love me you know so unfortunately so but so and so you have all these various experiences now look everyone is going to have their own life history but everyone has one no one is without some effect on their person I'm not saying everybody was traumatized I'm not saying everybody was beaten up or bullied or whatever that's not because that's not true it's not true however the the level of influence that somebody has on them varies person-to-person household the household and even child to child even if what they're you know how one parent treated an older child versus a younger child versus a middle child and you know what I'm saying what they want it's the irony because my brother and I were just talking about this yesterday and uh you know he's a private person I don't want to share his business yeah but um you know it was really true that we had different impacts from different people yeah and even the four adults in the house for both of us we kind of realized like three out of the four were really nasty to us but it wasn't the same three you know you know the person one of the people who was I never had any issue with my whole life nasty to my brother you know and the same reversed there was one of the people who was really nasty like could have killed me you know if things had gone a different I would have been dangerous some of the violent stuff like didn't negatively affect my brother almost at all so anyways it's interesting because there's a lot of parallelisms that just you know we we kind of sometimes find ourselves in these synchrony synchronicity modes when we're planning these things and like I was just having this conversation yeah but you know I was going to ask you something else Dan before because you're kind of talking about something kind of deep which is if you use medical fancy language you would say etiology like where do things come from right like what's the cause of something yes and so I was looking at this part of this conversation and I was trying to think okay so what are we talking about here so partially when we talk about our ancestors part of it occurred to me is that we could be talking about like the socio-cultural things that the people before us built yes you know and so we're living within that we're good or for bad you know we're living within that framework you know I got issues with parts of the socio-cultural framework and I think it's going to fit into this but I think part of you were talking about that that's true right yeah yep you know they live in a world that was created and so in that sense we're connecting with our ancestors yep but then I couldn't help but also think about kind of the shamanic aspect of this too and I wanted to kick that around a little bit because I think this is really fascinating and it's part of how like maybe different spiritual Traditions maybe talk a little bit different you know because I think in talking with you and Mary Kay as you know two of my shamanic uh and actually one other person too well mentioned a little bit like the the the shamans in my life the Beloved shamans in my life um there is this idea of almost like how the ancestors impacting that a more subtle kind of psycho spiritual way that we carry the kind of Remnant and history of our ancestors and I don't know where this is like totally was in the discussion for you but I thought I want to throw it out because I think it's one of the things that is in the area of cause yeah yeah I would you know I thought it would be good just to hear deeply what you think about that a little bit for people yeah so that I mean and that's why I brought it what do you think about it that yeah no I mean that's exactly why I brought it up and yeah I hope that jump on your notes I wasn't sure I didn't see it that way but no you're good I mean part of it is that like there there is so there there's a guy like to listen to he's kind of a famous not super famous but his name is sad Guru he's like a yogi person and oh yeah yeah yeah I've seen like I've never watched really he pops up on YouTube yeah he says do you know your great-great-great-grandmother and and the person always says no he goes oh then why do you have her nose on your face it's a good line yeah no it is it is and and I think for me this is part of like the whole movement to become you know enlightened whatever that means is to become not only conscious of unconscious processes but to look at all the the things that we have inherited which end up being many of many psycho-emotional aspects to us that are just there as like standard operations that go on without checks balances um or even I don't know much awareness do things just sort of happen and and come out and so as we kind of like move forward in our lives like I have oh yeah the the the responsibility on the person to kind of like do this sort of reflection on themselves number one but then to do like healing in in a sense healing on themselves not only heals at least and this is the way that I think is probably going to be viewed when you know and it's I'm noticing the words coming up a little bit more like ancestral healing I'm seeing this like as you do what you do to you you're also doing it to the other beings that are connected to you right and I don't just mean like oh that's my brother and he lives in not not my literal brother but what's up brother like anybody who I meet you know like you're actual people who are connected to you that there's work being done that happens outside of linear time and then if you take that that like you can have an effect on on numerous people around you you know what I'm saying and not just not just like people in your vicinity but people who are related to you in one way or another hey uh so uh we had a little uh technical faux pasc uh we were right in the middle of talking about this whole idea of uh ancestry and maybe like a shamanic take on it which I found really interesting because amongst my uh shamanic peeps there's a slightly different attitude towards this and it fascinates me but anyways I was going to bring up just in the synchronicity of the whole episode I for reals had a patient yesterday longer term patient one of the ones who have done a lot of the sort of are you know the taoists Buddhist acupuncture transmedical stuff with who has a kind of like a probably shamanic Roots somewhere back in her thing too and she did like an ancestral healing ceremony and it was cool uh it was a longer thing they did a number of rituals she described parts of it to me but even when I looked at her Chinese medical Diagnostics I mean it was better I was like yeah this looks good you know I'll take some credit for it you know but that was also very good Eric good work I was but I was also like because like okay this looks really good from these rituals you know I mean and I was like and I I we were talking and she was kind of like oh yeah in this in a certain part it was my part of the medicine got her a place to do things now she's doing things and that's even accelerating you know the whole thing and I was like yeah and like it's making the medicine better yeah I mean yeah yeah like if you look at the whole circle so it was like pretty it's pretty amazing like I was like doing her you know a Chinese mess and we checked the pulse at the wrist to kind of like read health of the body different organs are affected there and I was like this looks good you know I love it looks great this is fantastic and I think um uh you know from her point of view it was there definitely were things that needed to be healed within her immediate family thing correct but we were also talking about and that was part of probably even our medical work had a lot to do with that we were talking and you know just in how you sort of intuitively feel things with people I was like no this is going back deep what you're trying to heal we're talking about not people you would ever know in your lifetime you know this is like historical deep things she's trying to tap back into and maybe like parts that have to do with like again like her lineage and what she finds a value in her lineage and things like that so I was just interested in this whole thing because I think it's part of the episode obviously uh that you're bringing up here too this idea that we're tapping into something ancestral that goes beyond just how our parents were yeah and I mean our grandparents or something yeah I mean you think about how many you know how many uh generations of us are carried in in the in the female ovum you know I mean how many generations are there does your was I inside of my great great grandmother I don't know exactly how far back it goes and then so there's this like infinite like physical connection and then there's the energetic connection that like there is we do inherit epigenetic changes right they've shown this the time and time again throughout different studies and so if we if we can inherit positive epigenetic changes well then most definitely we can inherit it negative epigenetic changes and given the amount of trauma that I mean in like societal trauma right genocides and the killing like this just was a lot more pillaging I mean I'm not saying it doesn't happen today but you know say what you will about modern society you know once in a while I stick up for it there is a lot less Mass suffering you know than than there was previously under like many different under the feudal system or the during the Dark Ages or you know whatever the case is and we have the ability to speak freely and so on and so forth so we can start to like think for ourselves and then look back and kind of work on some of these things that are inherently part of us that are you know like you talked about earlier deep in our unconscious mind and and we could probably even say in our unconscious beings as the the parts that sort of like innervate the body and the nervous system or in the DNA however you want to look at it so like in the notes for this I was kind of going like Chinese mess we sometimes use this word Jing yeah it's translated as Essence yeah right so we'll do a little traditional Chinese medicine stuff here and um and part of what the essence is is the Chinese reference to like the genetic code and DNA right when you talk about DNA what's the TCM traditional Chinese medicine equivalent you say it's in the Zhang you know and that's your kind of your epigenetics thing right that these things are kind of carried on going forward so some of it obviously is like what we can talk about in the Jing I guess some of it can be that whole like Breaking the Chain like breaking the cycle of abuse you know there's no doubt I thought about that too there probably was some cycle of abuse that's probably psychological right within you know my family lady or something something I've used over here something I've used over there and someone back in like Russia or whatever in Europe abuse somebody and like these were all like learned behaviors that like filter down right the familial culture you know like that's a problem in the familial culture perhaps again we can cut it you know and my kids don't get that experience right and then some of it is probably more like uh like subtle energetic factors yeah that like reach back through time yeah right like you were saying transcends time and space or something I think before it would get cut off right yep this transcended like somewhere back a long time ago something under the dog is moving to the background hey for the first time uh and has ancestry dog ancestry but like uh you know like moving way back there's gonna be something where you know that's certainly in the shamaki was like Rippling through yes right so you're trying to cure things that will go back in time in a way right yep yeah and maybe forward I mean forward too yeah we're talking about outside of time so there's so there's all of this that that comes into who we are as beings right and so okay so one more thing about that now because I just want to get your feedback on this so for me I have to say you know we were talking with my patient and I was like you know I got like if you look at me like how I think about it I got no interest in my ancestors whatsoever sure I don't give a [...] about them you know I mean not in the not in like uh that could sound like I don't care they can all rot in hell no I don't feel that way it isn't something I really thought about and I thought about that so kind of a a weird thing because I know like some something like you we've talked about this for a long time or like this patient or other people I know in my life they feel like this thing of connecting back to ancestry and I don't and I don't know entirely what that means it certainly could be probably you know like a blind spot in how I see things if we want to look at it from shamanic point of view I don't mind saying that I might not see that part of things and maybe I should look more deeply at that but um there's a little Buddhist part of me that's like kind of looks from the point of view of like um there's the line of the Zhang and there's a line of the ancestry but like when you get into like reincarnation stuff you don't really know who the hell anybody is correct anywhere so part of your comic hands your karmic answers ancestry you might have nothing to do with this genetic ancestry you might be coming from a completely different part of the universe dropping in here and it's just an interesting thing and it's a little contrast I've noticed in myself with people who are more shamanic I'm not saying anybody's right or wrong right I've just thought about the idea and I realized no I think about it more like what's the ancestry of my own line of spirit or my line there's shadow in my line of this which might be different than the line of the Jing that I'm residing in not that all that stuff doesn't matter but I I have more of a sensitivity for that part where I know other people have more of a sensitivity for maybe like what we might call the Jing part the genetic part so anyway I know what you think about it no no I haven't thought it's all about it so not to you know I don't want to go down this road too much because it's a bigger Road but however I can appreciate that point I think what I have come to be more aware of and appreciate currently is that like I'm not so sure of the randomness of our incarnation right so even if that's true even if what you're saying is true I'm not so sure as the randomness of how it connects to that particular Gene right and so if it's not random I'm not saying that it's all fate or whatever but let's just say that there's some Middle Ground where there's some attractiveness right that is not you're not just a pinball in a wheel and you just kind of come out wherever you come out that then inherit in inherent in the in the DNA inherent in the hardware that you are merging with or use a shamanic term that you are merging with in this existence is the life of an opportunity to Enlighten yourself whatever do all these take all these practices learn all these things but then the unlocking of the latent work that's within the the physicality of of this vessel it also kind of falls on responsibility of the user as they're using it I see so what you're saying is like okay even if you landed within this Jing okay no matter who you are clean up the Jing that you're in clean up that ancestral line why not why not you're there now you're there now and why not do it if that is actually a point of him okay I can I can Vibe with that and to your point it will help you yeah yeah that's right it will help you and and the shamanic view of this is that like your ancestry is a great source of power for you now you and I both practicing you know you more so than than me in a sense for sure you know practicing Buddhists like there's many people that are not Buddhist at all they're I'm sorry that are not Tibetan probably far more people who are not Tibetan than are Tibet who practice that's part of their problem with the Chinese right off the bat right right so they have an immediate problem with that so there there's this right but there but they don't have but there's many non-tibetan llamas many and yeah they get some questions like our our friend llama Glenn our you know beloved teacher who was on before you know we should have them on again yeah we have to do that but they ask him you know what happened to you you know and he's like oh my GPS signal was off I was meant to land in Nepal but I ended up in Canada the mountains are so pretty you know but it does have this thing and so to to you know to kind of like this point it's like that is it's an opportunity that that should be taken because there is there is benefit for you and and beings who are literally related to you in a physical sense you know yeah and so that that's kind of the the impetus I got like as a keper of this from my side I got no in listening to you and Mary Kay I'm like I got no argument with this you know I mean I've been like you know you listen to we do this podcast we talk with people we talk with one another you listen you know we try to learn right um from everybody we have on from each other right and so I mean I've obviously I thought about this and I'm like okay this is maybe different than my kind of like gut level intuitive way that I think about this but that certainly open to the shamanic idea of it you know what I mean yeah and I can't deny looking at my patient like this did something great for her and that's always impressive for me because I'm like a doctor and you know percentage of my identity if something works I'm in you know you give an herb you give a treatment you give it this it works I'm like okay that's the proof for me right this is proved um but part of my only one that close on was the idea like if I look at it back like phenomenologically in my own experience of this and maybe this is a problem somehow or maybe it's not talking to you and Mary Kay like Mary Kay would move back to Ireland you know like our beloved you know shamanic guest and just general beloved person in our existences should move back to connect back to her Roots she feels that right where for whatever reason if I just look at it subjectively I don't feel it you know I mean I don't know what that means I'm not trying to like uh say it means something one way or the other maybe it's a blind spot on my part maybe it's because I'm so drawn to the more this other part of the Buddhist way of thinking maybe it's because I don't want to connect with these ancestors and they got an issue whatever it is that's okay I'm so I just wanted to share that phenomenological part because I think it's interesting I've talked with people like you and Mary Kay where you feel it I don't I don't know what it means but uh you know I'm open to like uh to the exploration of what it means and it's not nothing and but I wanted to share it just because there might be other people who feel like me sure sure all right anyways cool so we have so we have that as like the background of our beings right and then we have our own individual lives as we move forward in our families in our communities and you know we're certainly learning as we live but we're far more vulnerable in our youth and we learn through the adults around us we learn through our community we learn through our friends through our social interactions and and things like this and um the sort of implementation on these relationships or these relational situations on how we behave and then how we respond to them ultimately is my assertion become our egos become our existential Guardian operating system and it's a means of navigation it's a means of adaptation and it's a means of protection now I use those three on purpose right so adaptation is how you can socially Thrive right that's Freud's almost like reality tester okay there we go yeah that's kind of like to pull back in the early part of the conversation that's kind of that adaptation can have a positive or negative connotation to it right so you can adapt positively and say that like um you know you can learn that humor helps to soften someone else's mood right but then you might learn that humor too far insults somebody and so you don't do right you say you don't you don't end up doing that with my son now right it's like you gotta learn the line yes where it's funny or where you're gonna like step on somebody and they're gonna be pissed off at you yeah learn that line yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so there's it's very personal too because I know you've talked about the idea that you traveled around a lot when you were youngster and you had to learn how like how do I Vibe how do I get into new situations maybe that's a tool I can use right and so this adaptation that allows you to be successful in these in these things and then the last one is is the protection and I think this this is what I think that people are you're saying make sure I follow it you're saying learning adaptation and protection those are the three ones that you're doing yes yeah navigation app navigation adaptation and protection okay and so one is just figuring what's you know this is like my nervous system I'm like going what's going on around me I'm just sort of like figuring things out you know that's something that's a navigation piece okay yeah and then the the adaptation is like okay a plus b equals c or or C equals B plus a whatever right an adaptation would be like something's going there's a problem I better try to fix it yeah try to fix and then and then you learn a healthy way or a pathological way depending right but it's you're responding to your stimulus and then the defense part is the other part this is the part and and when I say defense I don't necessarily mean we'll use a nervous system term fight or flight right it doesn't always necessarily mean Shield it could mean attack actually right so in some ways you may be a victim of of abuse well you may be you know hiding and and scared for at some point but then you know later on you're gonna say well [...] I'm tired of being scared that ain't gonna happen no more you know and now you're you become the abuser in order to not be abused any longer it's kind of like a weird thing of people flitting between like uh fight and flight stuff right yeah yeah sometimes you're like this and sometimes you're like both of those things might be pathological the sense that they're they get extreme or something right and so that's from like problematic environments that is the more and I think that is the part but it's it's not so violent right not as not in today's society I mean there's obviously tons of violence tons and tons of violence now without getting some more convinced of though there's a lot of violence there's a lot of violence there's a lot of violence for sure there's a lot of violence and it doesn't all those people all all of those people always weren't violated but there was they're responding to the extra I believe you know because I think inside in the core we're good I think we're all good no matter who you are and and you know I've been you know reading some things that they're interviewing prisoners and things like this and this the the accounts of their childhoods are horrific yeah horrific if you read them and they opened up you know I'm sure there's more you would be like oh well no wonder you're this way I mean what the hell you know like who did that you know so like it's it may not be ancestry like 10 year 10 Generations ago but it's definitely like your parents and you're like oh your parents were pieces of [...] and then you go well what happened with their grand parents oh my god do your grandparents repeat you're like yeah no wonder no what you know what I'm saying it's no wonder and and it's this kind of thing and so this that's like the learned behavior aspect of that too as well as whatever that might do genetically and so that's that's exactly what I was saying so this kind of like the last part the the defensive portion you know that's the part that we generally see as the as the egoic portion right as the one that's interacting with the world so it is you but it is the you to your point earlier it's the separate the separate version of you the subjective version of you that is responding to the object in a particular way and you could be sort of navigating you could be adapting but more likely we're responding off of defenses and when you're responding off of defenses then the sharper aspects of our personality will sort of come to the come to the surface and start to navigate through these various situations that we will have and else then and you focus more on yourself and then now the sort of like individual components of your character start to kind of like pop up more to the surface along with your defensive Persona so that you can feel whatever empowered safe uh you know whatever you however you want to do it you know what I'm saying yeah it kind of like if I click it back to the psych stuff we did at the beginning there's overlaps with like a few things one is with like the two Carls Carl Jung and Carl Rogers two of my favorite Carls I said my mom had a Cousin Carl very nice guy I have a friend named Carl really good at like making models he was an adult guy who could make these amazing like you know down in the basement in his house in St Louis lots of models that were very cool anyways uh um uh so you know Carl Jung he talks about the edge and we'll do deep cutout Deep dive on him at some point but he does talk about this idea the Persona that's I think part of what you're talking about there too yeah you develop a Persona a way of functioning in the world yes that's partially uh like I think fits around some of your ideas of navigation and that's on all three navigation adaptation and like protection right all three of those things right you know because it helps you and like one of the things that Jung says is like sometimes the Persona takes over too much for people yes he would watch kind of clinically and he would say people might work in a certain profession you know maybe they're a doctor or a lawyer or whatever it is and they start carrying that back into their life everywhere they develop such a sense of persona that uh it's like kind of on all the time even and he thought that this was like a major problem like to what you're saying they couldn't turn off that existential Guardian operating system just off and it was constantly functioning so they were always operating through this Persona part of who they are you know the thing that hit me about it from like and we'll do a deep dive on Carl Rogers even more too because these are great people um uh but on the Carl Rogers side he talks about this self-concept thing and the idea that you develop a self-concept could be good could be pathological you know and so I think what you're getting to is the idea that like a lot of this uh existential Guardian operating system thing is kind of like can go pathological right um okay but so self-concept can be pathological that's a weird way to talk about it and then Rogers he usually emphasizes the idea clinically in Psych cases what you're really doing is you have a self-concept that's pathological yeah right that's one of your main problems the person is going to carry a pathological self-concept or in the lingo you're using a pathological existential Guardian operating system but you're kind of saying like the same thing he's saying the self-concept tends to be pathological it tends to be something wrong with it it doesn't really Vibe right for the full complete human right something goes something's wrong and I think in your uh your uh existential Guardian operating system where you're framing it the idea is that that a lot of times it's going to go wrong unfortunately right it could be functional but a lot of times it goes haywire and the guardian system is an operating and the other thing he mentions really interesting which I think you think but maybe we haven't fully said it yet would be it wants to protect itself so it doesn't just want to protect the person it's like he makes the point it's self-guarding which we can talk about maybe when we do him a little deeper but the self-concept once it's there it only it doesn't even just operate to protect the person somehow it operates to protect itself like those crazy like 2001 the Space Odyssey the computer goes crazy and it's supposed to protect the ship but it starts protecting itself you know he kind of makes that point which I don't I think it's implicit in what you're saying so I thought I would just throw it out there because it's the other one of the other things that popped up I'm so that what that would say that like itself has sentience right because it has a self-preservation aspect I don't know that I necessary well if that in my mind that means that it's a separate entity and that is not something I believe actually well it's a it's like I think what they would say is it's part of a psyche and the psyche has multiple components the same way like the default mode network is part of a glob sure something like that you know I I think that I think that that brings is a weird question of what does it mean for something to have set in the sentience when you have like multiple parts of a human being right so so my my my thought is that no it's the same sentience it's the same sentience and that it's doing its job and it's guarding itself because that's again that's a defense mechanism if you were to come and attack it and you know you're trying to shoot you know I don't know missiles at My Invisible Shield you know I'm gonna try and bolster The Shield because that's my source okay Captain put Power into this it's like every Star Trek episode exactly every sci-fi thing ever yeah um and so I yeah so I think that it's doing its job because it's still guarding the person you're attacking the defense system but the defense system is the first and last line of defense right and you know we're not going to have time to to go into it but like do you see that way as like purely like a defense system thing then and that in that situation yes I I so I think that the ego the in the way that we're talking about it and the way that it gets used in the in the normal lexicon of of description is the defense system that's how I view it right when they talk about it in in the media or in suddenly they'll say oh this is a egomaniac or this is a right this person who is driven to be focused on themselves and themselves only at always at the cost of somebody else right maybe with their own life maybe with their sense of you know with a sharp sense of humor or some right these kind of things and then in the in the spiritual sense that you have to overcome the ego you have to transcend the ego meaning you have to write you know you're gonna have to like uh essentially like Escape From Your Own Prison in a sense right and so what I'm saying is like that I think is what we're talking about in one sense but I also want to highlight that like it is your adapt this is your ability to adapt and your ability to be in a navigatory kind of experience with your reality as the subject being steeped in the object and not having such a clear delineation of either or that there is this sort of like osmosis that occurs right you're moving back and forth right but that barrier if you're not conscious of it is not just like a semi-permeable membrane but actually becomes quite spiky and quite rough and so then the um the separation the feeling of Separation increases and once that occurs that spikiness then gains momentum gains habituation and we're all product of like what we do yesterday and yesterday and yesterday it becomes more who we are and it grows strength like a muscle and so when you go and you try and poke at it well what's it going to do it's not going to go oh it's going to poke back because it has learned and been positively rewarded from internal validation and from the external you know world that this is the way that I should be this is the way that I am I can't be anybody else but me yeah but who were you before you were now you know like so like the standard kind of like because I come from the psych background right and like you think about a clinician so a couple of things pop up with that to me if you think about something like a self-concept even part of the point that's made and I think you're alluding to this to is this idea like at some point that was probably functional yeah it probably wasn't like shitty from the beginning even under certain circumstances that thing probably worked which is the reason why that kind of like evolved you know in that person you know so that even when they talk about the self-concept it would be the idea like yeah that was adaptive at some point Even in our little TCM field there's a guy named Dr Leon Hammer who was a child psychiatrist and also like a TCN person and he kind of makes this point at some points those patterns in that person you know whatever that patterning of themselves is you know the way that they kind of function probably worked to some extent right then at some point it won't work anymore when you poke at someone it is true right from a psyche kind of language point of view that you're going to get defense mechanisms a lot it's one of the main problems you know we know this clinically you try to like get someone to change you get resistance mechanisms right and we all know them it's when you poke at the person and maybe you don't even mean to poke right not trying to be Pokey but something goes funny for them and then they pop back at you or something weird happens they start acting weird then there's a whole line of thought that says you probably hit something that's a defense mechanism or in the lingo you're using some part of the existential Guardian operating system is like going because it feels as an attack right you know however that got built up um but the thing is I would say and if you know we have different thoughts and feelings on this this is totally fine as we get to the end against the episode for today it's been good yeah it would just be the idea like I got no issue with like multiple parts of a person that doesn't bother me yeah and you'll have to we'll we'll kick it around more as we go yeah I don't have I know and I and I think it's it's you know like like I use this example you know all the time so for people who hear all the time I apologize you know but like colors in the visible light it's a rainbow they're all there but they're all light you know what I'm saying and so this is much of the same thing like all these things are occurring at once but the point I think for me what I what I would say probably in in opposition to what you were what you were not yourself but like when things go bad like you were referencing earlier about like good and bad I don't think that this particular thing has gone bad it's just over it's over compensated it's over adapted and now it's to the point where it's so fixed and kind of like oddly growing that it doesn't necessarily fit right obviously we don't mean bad like evil yeah yeah yeah we ain't bad like uh that's probably not healthy you're not healthy that's the not good yeah yeah yeah it's not good yeah so don't do anything wrong and I know that's a sensitive thing when we talk about these things part of what I think you like to do is say hey let's not blame people about stuff let's not try to frame them in a negative way they've probably been framed negative in their lives enough for sure frame again and I agree with you so you know I hear what you're saying not to say something is bad but everyone I mean to be a clinician you know and to try to like think about changing human beings and human beings behavior and helping people get better there is this part and we'll talk about more next week I guess right yeah we're sometimes you have to go like okay this isn't functional for you anymore yeah this piece isn't working and I guess that's probably an ending point right well that's that's where we're going next time that's exactly where we're going it's it's to you know find out like what's happening like what what's happening I think for me there's there's three pieces um identification and invested in investigation you know find out hey what are we protecting what are we protecting it from and then why are we protecting it and then when you can go through this then we can start to look and break things down and say okay you know what is our model of behavior when this occurs when that occurs when that occurs and you start to become even more conscious of the things that you are unaware of it's empowering and to me like as I'm as I'm growing and I'm we're having these conversations on a weekly basis which I'm very grateful for we're also grateful for our audience you know who give us feedback and show us love like we definitely appreciate it uh I am feeling more as time goes on that like the in the act of Enlightenment is becoming aware of all of that it is it is the transformation of what I believe myself to be but then also the transformation of what I don't know myself to be at the same time you know it's kind of like you're developing uh like uh I would say a clinical spiritual philosophy and language right that are capping capturing ideas that you're using for yourself and for the people that you work with right something like that yeah yeah as as is going on I'm just I'm just kind of like starting to see how how this how this goes and different people react in different ways and sometimes it is the far more timid you know quiet kind of inverted introverted individual and another time just a loud young very boisterous you know seemingly outgoing you know whatever and there's a balance to be had with it all but if we don't approach it then we never will be able to to diagnose a and we won't be able to even have the conversation around it because even talking about it you'll get your you'll be pinged oh oh what are you saying you know like who are you talking about defense right it's defensive yeah for sure and I think it you know getting doing getting ready to do this men's retreat in um you know in a little you know in a few a couple months from now like I'm just starting to kind of as I talk to people about it I'm hearing it a little bit and I'm you know seeing all the various aspects to it and it's you know it's interesting so I'm trying to put language on something that I'm that I am feeling you know and I'm also seeing but it doesn't have it's not a thing you know it's a it's a construct in a sense it's like uh I mean like a big part of my professional life is but like working with people who are um becoming healers in different ways right for all of us and like maybe that's one of the deepest things about becoming a Healer I mean I felt that way about myself I you know how do I describe this for myself how do I describe this to myself what's a way that I think about it that I can make work for me you know it also that feeds back you know like Carl Jung can say whatever he's saying this person can say whatever saying but I also have to have this in the language and in the way that I can use it that like I see it that makes sense to me you know I mean that resonates with me anyways okay so we'll pick it up right we will pick it up yeah we'll we'll continue we're going to continue right from here when uh when we get back in and and you know it'll be and this is not just for healers right this is for self investigation that's the yeah I think anyone trying to change themselves part of like what you have to figure out like even like getting the language getting the terms getting there is is like healing it's part of the healing process because now you're recognizing stuff right yeah that's your ini your identification and investigation yeah and I like things in three so I might add inquiry in the beginning of that you know you have to the Steed the seed of curiosity has to be there you have to know you have to want to do it in the first place yeah you know so anyways well Eric as always thank you so much good conversation uh thank you for watching us on you know whatever podcast platform you're using Apple Spotify pod tail I don't know you know whatever uh if you're on the YouTube you know hello uh like comment subscribe if you're checking us out on the Apple please go ahead and leave us a review it helps to show out you know uh share is sharing is caring as they say so please feel free to share this is a labor of love Eric and I don't ask for donations we don't do any of those things all we ask is that um you know you share with somebody that might feel benefit from it we certainly benefit and we love to hear from everybody so if you want to hit hit us up on on one of the platforms that you're on or you can email us at gin and Tantra gmail.com that's Jin and Tantra gmail.com for Eric this is Daniel we'll get you the next one peace