[Music] welcome to jyn and tantra spirituality with a twist the podcast that takes tantrism buddhism taoism sutheasm cabalism shamanism chinese medicine and all of the other isms we've been influenced by and blends them into a tall crisp cool cocktail your spirit has been longing for you to get together now isn't that i refreshing you to get together hey fellow g in tears those of us who like our spirituality with a twist uh this episode is something a little different it's hard to say what order people may be listening to these but uh currently we're doing a series on sort of the basics of spiritual practice and philosophy kind of the stages of the path so that's going on we're continuing that uh we're doing interviews you know some really interesting interviews with the spiritually interesting uh we have a new one out with uh aaron greenberg who's a co-founder of this thing called biograph books which is going up and he's his whole job is recording people's life stories so that's a really interesting one uh but also along with those things and we have other interviews on the way but also along with those things we wanted to do episodes on i know subjects of transcendent interest things that are just interesting uh related to spirituality and life and um and so we're going to start doing ones that are more uh about love and spirituality and it's uh in sexuality and it's kind of interesting because you know we chose the name jen entendra that was sort of daniel's daniel's invention i kind of did the spirituality with the twist part so it kind of came from both of our minds it kind of captured the essence of what we wanted the show to be about but then we sort of purposely held off a little bit on talking about some of the things that might be really obvious with a name like that like sexuality and love and relationships um and you know there's sort of some reasons behind it i guess we both felt a little bit so what do you think about that daniel we did kind of wait a little bit getting the name of the show yeah we did we did wait a little bit and i think there's there's a couple reasons one i think was to just kind of give at least the people who are who are following us right you know regularly listening to us you know for most episodes that we put out just to kind of build a little bit of a relationship um and and our own voices in terms of what we believe in and and what we're trying to do with our with our work here and i felt like that was a a quick dive a little bit too deep right away and i wanted to kind of hold off just so that we can kind of build again like a little rapport like you would be building with uh a new relationship or a with a patient or a new friend or something like that trying to find common ground kind of interesting thought i hadn't thought about it that way but that's kind of a good point it's kind of like if you start talking about really hypersexual things right from jump street it's a little i don't know you're right it could be a bit much right right and and it's also i think something along the lines of like you know you can't just go right right in for the you know for the thing right you kind of have to dance around a little bit and do the courtship right you know so yeah yeah holding hands and staring in each other's eyes and you know doing uh the foreplay so to speak and so i think you know it's uh funny and the tantras themselves they really talk about that they talk about you know things start when the two people you know smiled each other you know their eyes meet and then they have the metaphor of the lovers holding hands and then they talk about kind of kissing and then it comes to the embrace part last but there's a kind of a build right yeah i hadn't really you know when we had talked about this in the pre-show meeting i hadn't thought about that part you know that you want to build towards that and get people to know what we're trying to do here a little bit more before we went to those subject matters that's a good point yeah well you know i could be spontaneous so this is uh that's spontaneity right here you know yeah yeah okay so that was part of it yeah yeah that was definitely i mean that that's a big part for me that was probably the biggest part um just kind of holding off so that people feel like that that we are you know after you listen to people talk for several hours and for those who you know listen to most of our episodes or some of our episodes i feel like there's a good sense of our personalities out there now so that not only are we um you know relatively entertaining but also people who are trustworthy and you can kind of tell that from episode to episode there are conscious themes that we're trying to uh bring up and approach and tackle with even with our guests that we still have the things that we're trying to present to people and that this is one of them and hopefully now that people feel a little bit like we're in their in their homes and their lives a little bit yeah there's kind of a trust part of it that's a good point mm-hmm so that was the main part for you anything else uh in that no those two for me is it's the trust and the foreplay yeah you don't want to like takes a little build right you want a little slow yeah i think i had the feeling too um that i didn't want the whole show just to you know end up about you know we're doing tantra and they wanted to go like the version of tantra we're doing is kind of deep right not just about sexuality or just not about you know sexual technique or those kinds of things you know we i wanted to present tantra as kind of a full spiritual path right embedded in things you know that um you know are beyond just you know the way a lot of times people could think about here which might be a little bit more new agey and we're not against new agey but we're not doing that exactly so yeah i think that was kind of important too that we kind of set a tone that was showing you know we're treating this as kind of a spiritual subject matter where things have to do with love and sexuality can be a part of it but you know it's part of a deeper and bigger tradition so i thought that was kind of important too did you think about that as well yeah i did but i figured you were going to mention that so i'll let you talk about it see we know each other right there's a trust everyone has a bond in the trust in this whole thing right yeah um okay so when we were looking at how to do this we decided to start with talking more about the love and relationship into the deep parts of that which is even the whole concept of you know deeper karma connections between people soul mates if you will and those kinds of deep loves um as the as the starting off point and so i guess the first thing that really for both of us to kind of talk about is what do you think about those things do you think there's such a thing as a soulmate thing how do you think about love how do you think about it connects to spirituality you know we were talking back and forth in the in the prep for this and you just sent me one two word text which was just like deep subject i was like yeah pretty much so but you know it's g and t we go for the deep subjects we don't we don't shy away so whatever you had to say is preliminary to that i guess what do you what do you think about those things see i know we talked about do you believe there's a soulmate thing or how do you think about that so there's a couple things here um first off is the the i'd say the standard definition of a soul mate is actually quite limiting right generally people believe that your soul mate is somebody who you're quote unquote supposed to be paired with you know and they are the completion of you and that's that's it you're bonded on a soul level or this is the person who's going to you know make you feel happy for the rest of your life and and love and all that you know stuff like that and i'm just not so sure if that if there's a singular answer for that because i don't necessarily agree with the definition of that idea of a single soul mate i i personally am more of a belief that like we probably work together in in small tribes or maybe even larger tribes i don't know the exact number but that people have roles in their life so you know our our souls are are mated in a number in a number of different ways that we help each other throughout our lives and maybe that's as a romantic partner but it doesn't necessarily have to be that i mean you know like yourself you know in my life you have a great influence from me you know professionally and personally and hopefully you know i do for you as as well so essentially our souls are doing this thing where we're able to express you know various things that we believe in and hopefully can can illuminate those for other folks as well maybe there's new information or repetition of things they've already thought and now they know that other people believe in that same kind of way so that has an extremely important part of my life as you know as i know what it does for you because we've been talking about doing this for years now so there's a deep uh aspect to that that i think goes beyond just the the view of the typical quote unquote soul mate which is really only limited to romantic sexual love yeah i think that's true um and you know we're gonna go through and talk about where that whole idea comes from about you know your one fated partner i think that's an interesting to talk about when we get back to it but yeah i think i agree you could probably have you could probably have different kinds of soulmate quote unquote type experiences you know it might be a teacher it might be like the two of us trying to do this shared mission that we're doing here right yeah you know our souls are involved in a a joint important project that means a lot to both of us right this is a definitely a labor of love you know of the heart for both of us doing this podcast right or you know um if you have kids in your life right they're kind of soul mates to you in their way you know so yeah i think if you do make it too narrow um you only think about that one romantic connection and it has to be you know in that whole mythos of just that i think maybe you've done something you've done a little bit of injustice to what the connections are between people you me you have made it too narrow you know you know when my when my daughter was born you have a 17 year old and it was interesting like it's a it's a well-known fact that i was like a reluctant parent i could have gone my whole life and not had any kids and i would have been fine uh but i know when my daughter was born almost immediately i had this feeling like oh okay you and me we're in something together you know i think a lot of parents probably have that experience you know and it was like instantaneous i was like yeah you know you and i are kind of like uh we're were two peas in the pod you know in some way or another and um yeah so there's all kinds of connections you know and i definitely could think of even with my daughter there were parts of my personality that very quickly changed you know it was uh it was kind of you know i'm a self-reflective meditative person right you know this right and i was like this is changing very quickly you know um some negative parts of my personality parts of me that were a little bit more i don't know bluesy or could be a little bit more should we go there be a little bit more maudlin the more sad parts of my personality everyone has those you know uh um but they were just kind of like nope but there's no room for that anymore you know and it wasn't like it's something i had to like challenging myself they just kind of went up in smoke like really fast it's interesting you know so yeah so i agree if you make it too narrow i think i think yeah you're gonna you're gonna be selling the idea kind of short yeah um i also think that you know and maybe let's so let's just let's go there real quick what you know where where is that where does that idea come from okay so you know there's a lot of there's a lot of um stuff about this and i'm i'm drawn to some of it for sure if we get to the personal side so if you get to the concept of a soul mate and you kind of trace it back there's a definitely a part that goes back to greek greek thought right and it goes all the way back to plato and then uh plato there's a part where you know there's all based on dialogues right and there's a part where there's all the great thinkers of greece are kind of together and they're talking about love and there's euripides the playwright who kind of has the most creative version of this and he tells this kind of longer story about how human beings used to be you know twice of what they normally are they were these kind of big fantastical creatures and uh the gods were intimidated by them because it looked like they had too much power so i think it's zeus in the story you know as the one who does initiate this he's like no these these creatures we got we gotta cut these things down the sides you know so they developed this they developed the scheme which is to cut human beings in half and uh in doing that you know they sliced them and they become half of what they were but now of course they were only they were only they're only half of what they were and so they were like always going to be longing for this experience of their other half and that's kind of the greek origin of you know what's interesting about it for us as 21st century people when you look back on it is they kind of acknowledge that some of the some of the beings that got sliced in half were half male and half female but some were both sides female and that led to women longing for other women and some were half men and half men and that led to men longing for other men so in that sense it was sort of surprisingly from a 21st century person's point of view kind of surprisingly progressive there was an allowance for people longing for you know their other half and in different kinds of ways right um that you know i think now you know in the early parts of the 21st century people are like you know a lot of people are really comfortable with that idea now so that's kind of that's kind of the greek version of it right i got interested in it um because it comes up in the kabbalah yes yeah this is this is where i'm at yeah so there's a you know one of the great kabbalistic books just you know for people who are listening if you're interested in the kabbalah there's this and you want to know a little bit more about it there's this thing called the zohar which is this long series of books that are kind of like commentaries on on the torah on the books of the old testament but they're really not they're kind of like they are and they're not they're kind of more like like a long a long series of like deep spiritual essays or something like um their soulmate does appear there and it's kind of interesting it's in the section about abraham where he leaves his home so you know in the bible there's this part where you know god says abraham you have to leave your family you have to leave where you are and go off on kind of a a journey right so and then the soulmate part comes up in there so it's interestingly kind of placed and the idea there is that people are kind of born with um you know again kind of half of half of themselves and there's a sort of another half of themselves and they are kind of longing to find that other half but it's considered to be kind of a complicated journey and it's not necessarily like super obvious that the you know that you're going to meet that person in this life or that you know they're going to be the person that you know you are with maybe have a family with or whatever you know uh but there is this sort of idea that there's this person kind of out there which is sort of your other half and so that's sort of the soul mate idea in the kabbalah uh is that how you heard about talked about the kabbalah too yeah yeah that people are like you said born incomplete uh the soul is incomplete uh until it is until it it's bonded with another with the the paired soul the other half that soul until and so until that point the person essentially is is an incomplete individual and then once they're once they're married then then they can really kind of also begin their uh their spiritual journey as well because now they have essentially you know two halves of the coin i talked with some kabbalistic rabbis about this though too and it's like it is an interesting idea because it's not obvious you're going to meet that person necessarily in this life and we haven't done the reincarnation part of our conversations on basic spirituality but in the kabbalah they definitely have a sense of people reincarnating so it might be lives where you'll meet that person and you never come together in any kind of relationship way and there might be lives where you don't necessarily meet that person at all and you know so it's not it definitely isn't like a disney movie right you know where you know prince or princess charming whoever it is that you're drawn to is waiting around the corner just around the river bend i think that's the pocahontas song right it's not like it's not like that you know it's not obvious that you know you're not sort of going to find that person but you know there's some beautiful passages on it um for people who are really interested in this idea there are some meditations on this and there is this notion in the kabbalah that if you if you contemplate those passages it does kind of like it does kind of clarify the energies around this kind of longing so there are people who seem to have this kind of longing in them for a soulmate and if you have that longing there is this idea even if you just scan the letters in the original aramaic it does it's a kind of a meditation on letters and so you know as you scan the letters it sort of becomes a meditative thing it's like a visual a mantra almost right you're not saying the mantra but your eyes are taking in the mantra of the passage and they do sometimes recommend that you can do that so on the practical side if you want an interesting meditation that's definitely outside the box that's a definitely outside the box meditation on on the feeling of like longing for a soul mate right yeah yeah yeah yeah because i definitely i know about you i've definitely met people who have that longing right they do feel that yeah yeah and and it's it's different than somebody who is just simply longing you know what i mean like looking for uh let's say some holes to be filled you know yeah yeah yeah yeah it's not it's not just a sexual longing right yeah no no no it's something it's something a little bit deeper but you know human psychology is uh it's an enigmatic you know i don't know rubik's cube yeah and uh i think it's it's it's difficult to kind of parse out those two quite often so i'm i'm you know when we get into these kind of discussions there has to be some credence into the the physical aspects of it also because if you know if someone is is lacking for something in their life this often is a way to make somebody feel more whole i mean that's probably part of the reason why we're partnered for you know outside of reproductive reasons um and safety and just you know to be more efficient but it you know we also can't separate the two you know so i think um this is a very kind of personal thing for people to to say like i i'm looking for the part of myself that isn't here yet you know it's it's you know i know i would do as much of the personal part of this you know we're presenting the concept but i had like my own kind of soulmate experiences around this and i think that's the reason why you know even we've been talking about doing this show i thought well at some point we'll talk about love and we'll talk about these issues because it's going to come up in a show called jin and tantra and i definitely have my own kind of you know kind of intense feelings of connection with someone very spontaneously i mean i've had that experience i don't think if there'd be like a before and after for me on this subject matter i think if you asked me before um you sort of that set of experiences i would have been like well that you know this is something that you know is a cultural thing you know um people are longing for something and it gets expressed in this way i would have been much more of like a skeptic about such things but i did have like sort of these experiences and i thought wow this really is kind of sort of like this i guess that drew me a little bit into the kabbalistic conversations about this back in the day too because i was like well what's going on here what does this mean that i have you know sort of this profound feeling of connection you know that was and like you know definitely i think like like most of our listeners in in this you know i relationships and love and deep feelings of connection with people i've certainly have had right and then i had this one kind of very unusual set of experiences and i was like hmm okay this is something else and then i get i got to be a little bit i got a little bit more open to the idea what i think it means isn't obvious to me but the fact that people have the experience and i've had a couple of interesting things kind of lately where there's a couple people that i know who are going through something kind of similar where they're going through these kinds of very intense feelings of connection with another person we're going to talk rumi and shams maybe at some point in this episode if we get to it this one or the next one we'll go there we'll probably we'll probably go there next yeah so you know like there is this feeling like oh there's something about you know me and this person that's very profound right um and that that's an experience for sure i mean i try to be we've talked about this before i think here and there i try to be a little empirical with myself i try to go okay is this an experience or not experience if you would have asked me before i've been like i haven't had any experience like that so i know that's a thing or not but you know when i have an experience i kind of acknowledge it like yeah there's something that can happen very profound between people it's very moving that's not too surprising you know to say that of course that happens but on some level i think if you haven't really had that experience for yourself i don't know yeah you know some people have had that and some people have had to be honest right some people have had that feeling of you know there's some person that there's obviously something transcendently special for me with this person or maybe you've had that with more than one person you know you feel that transcendence you know and some people like to be honest probably haven't had that too much what do you think about that i mean i've met people who have had and i've had people who haven't yeah yeah i'm so i the same way i know people who have i know people who haven't uh i find that often they are not with these they're not partnered with these people i could i that that seems to be a theme um and also or the partnerships don't work out and we'll get to that when we talk about the shams and roomy thing sure yeah yeah um it doesn't work out uh i think a lot of times that they may have not that the relationship it seems to be like on a rocket ship you know where it's like you just see them and you're like immediately blown away yeah you're just you're shook on on just like first or second look and and you're it's something you know you're trying to describe a feeling okay which is difficult to do just in general it's like trying to describe a picture to somebody who can't see it um or who can't see in general yeah and so that's difficult but then you're trying to describe a very specific feeling that is completely individual because the way in which we all love and experience love although we have similar you know perception abilities right you know hearing touching feeling distinct these kinds of things but it's so different for people because some people are much more of a touchy-feely kind of folks and some people are much more of the the acoustic type where they need to hear beautiful poetry and that they are adored all the time and some people like actions and they want to be shown how it is and so i think these things can be very different for people you know just in terms of the aspect of love but when we're like on the specific like with the soulmate type thing i think that people can say definitively for if they had it they'll say yes for sure i've had it and if they hadn't then they're like how you were previously you're kind of like well i don't know maybe it's a thing but i've never had it before there's usually not a gray area where someone's like no you know bob from back in the day that's true maybe maybe it may be him i it's possible yeah if you had this thing you're like i think i know it's like if somebody bashed you in the nose with a hammer you sort of like remember that you're not like yeah i can't was that it you know it does seem to have that and i've talked with people in the before and after of this for sure you know and it's like i said it's interesting now because i have two people i know who are going through this now in their own ways um i just got a text from one uh this morning um and we'll get together and we'll we'll chat about such issues you know and she's trying to cope with it yeah in this case it's kind of a separation period um between her and the person she feels this with but you know it's it's something unique you know so at the very least it's an experience you know and you know being empirical about it i'd say yeah there's the experience and i suppose in the end and i guess we'll talk about this as we go through the whole subject matter i've become kind of a pretty big believer in love and connection with people as part of the spiritual path i definitely believe in that very strongly um believe in that is even kind of a weird way to put that because not everybody has to feel that way but that's definitely been the thing for me you know and i think that runs part of the show too in a way because there obviously are people who are spiritual people who become nuns and monks and they eschew that part of life right it's not it's not for them in this life you know they're going a different way and of course that is an admirable and respectable thing to do uh you know the dalai lama is a single dude and he talks about that and he talks wow love and all those things that's a lot of work that's a lot of energy it's a lot of potential emotional upheaval and pain yeah he'll talk about that watching that in people and he's kind of like that's not part of my life now in this life you know so you know some people are going to have that as part of life and some people won't and that's totally fine but i think for me it's become i think with the the accumulating experiences that i had it became something like yeah like at least for me in this life uh you know love matters a lot right and you know the profundity of this kind of soul mate experience had a big impact on me and in the aftermath i think it just made me a more loving person in a way so but you know everyone's gonna have their own experience with this for sure yeah that's the personal part [Laughter] yeah i think i think it's sort of i think what you said is true it does make you a more loving person it sort of cracks you know yeah like it because it's it's so personal it's so unique the feeling um even even if you experience it with a couple different people it's so like i don't know how to say it it's in it's intimate and personal at the same time yeah that it it it immediately kind of transcends beyond your levels of of rationality or thinkiness to fend it off to to reason it away to this or that or oh they just look good today or you know i'm horny or something like this you know i find that person sexually attractive which is probably true but doesn't seem to encapsulate it in any way it doesn't it doesn't it isn't the root even on some level it's just a piece right yeah right it's and but it it goes it's like it just sinks right in you know like a drop of water and a crack of a rock it goes right to the middle instantaneously and it makes a difference it changes the sort of signature that we have i believe at least in a relationship perspective because it never leaves us yeah i think that's true i think that's true it's kind of interesting like you know you and i have talked a little bit about this i definitely feel i guess in you know buddhist thought or something people develop their little karmic talents or whatever it is that they have you know everyone has this cachet of you skills that they've acquired over the course of their lifetimes right and i do feel like those people i'm connected with i sort of know you know i know very quickly and i think you've talked about the same thing it doesn't always have to be this intense thing but you know oh that's one of my people you know like that's a person who i have some kind of something with it goes back to what you're talking about before if you make the concept too narrow you're missing that there's more people beyond this one person that you have these these interconnections with but i feel like i know that pretty quickly so that's one set of feelings i know of certainly i've had and i you know in general i've tended to feel like i'm kind of correct in that in the long run right those people that i feel that i have a connection with it will amount to something you know at some point or another you know and that could be again with friendships or it could be something that was more romantic or it could be whatever it is right something that you're trying to accomplish with that person or something that has a deeper meaning and i found that to be a very profound part of my life but i also had what you're talking about too the part where you feel like a bolt of lightning went through the top of your head and your knees buckle and you know i actually had that thing um and i was like oh okay this is something different yeah it's funny you were talking about it reminds me a little bit about when i did my first zen retreat there's kind of a zen thing about sound sometimes it'll be sound that would be the trigger of like the change in the person right it'll shake something up in their mind uh you know and in their consciousness and their spirit with the sound and i was doing the first long zen retreat and there was uh at the end of the day of meditation they kind of hit on this wooden percussion instrument and they just bang it and bang it and bang it and there was something about like it hit and it was like i was kind of like split in half for a moment it was a really interesting moment i can still kind of like you know feel it very clearly in my memory you know this and it was a very similar experience in uh you know this connection with a person where something just went bang you know and um yeah so there's something profound about that and again i guess i think if you haven't had that experience you'd be like well you know hard to say it's the same thing if you haven't had the experience of sitting down all day and have a someone hit a wooden gong you're not gonna like you'll be like okay i guess that's something but of course if you have something if you have it for yourself it's different yeah so for those who are listening to this if you haven't had that we're going on a deep rant and you're like whatever bro but we're trusting some people know about this or at least you're curious or you never know don't you know don't ask for whom the bell or the wooden gong tolls it could be for you my friend that's right you could be like me walking around going yeah what the hell these dudes are talking about gonna be waiting around the corner for you you just don't know well i guess on the on the theoretical side um i did have a conversation with one of my buddhist teachers about this i asked like well what's the buddhist attitude about this we have the greeks we have the great kabbalists um what do the buddhists think and there's definitely a thing in buddhism where there's no real like conception of like the soul being cut in half and someone looking for their other half like that isn't the thing and i guess when i look at the metaphysics of it i'm probably a little bit more inclined to think that way um but there was definitely this idea though i think the conversation was interesting basically um opposed the question and the answer became well there might be like four people on the planet that you can have that kind of thing with that went well how many people are on the planet seven billion you know so um but then it was buddhism has something about that i suppose that there'll be these profound connections between people and i guess after we do the roomy thing we'll talk a little bit more about some of the buddhist stories that are like this because they do have buddha stories that are like this too so um i guess the only other last little bit of theory because i've talked with people who are like this too there is the sort of whole like twin souls soul maybe kind of a movement that's going at now which again if you know anything about it you don't know anything about it but i definitely have and i didn't know anything about it but i have talked with people about this there's sort of a new age version of this too just to acknowledge that right where uh you know again it's a big thing around people searching for you know their other parts of their soul and i don't know what they think about that again i don't want to um i don't want to discount anyone's you stuff but you know again it's a little bit more you know part of like a little bit of a new agey subculture thing you know and i know people who are really interested in that too do you know anyone who's interested in that kind of stuff oh so so what do you think some of it i think fits into the idea of people who are just longing for something i mean some of it might be that for sure right right right so so you know one of the things we've got since we're gonna since we're gonna go on it let's let's go in a little bit right so one of the things they like to talk about is uh is a soul is i'm sorry it's a twin flame a twin flame twin flame well yeah i think it's even different than that i think you know they call it um twin flames are like they say they're more like we're like mirror images of each other and they're kind of like past and their fears and their traumas and all their sort of life situations kind of resonate with each other you know almost and they have kind of like these different kind of relationships that are quite intense um that and then could be they could also be like some kind of telepathic or psychic um doesn't have to be romantic by any by any you know stretch of the imagination um and they're very powerful in people's lives and they're kind of pulled together but it doesn't necessarily mean it's romantic yeah yeah yeah that's true you know they're just you're kind of like resonant um and so my you know my experience with this is that you know i've had maybe one or two mention that i was there twin flame previously and our relationship was extremely short-lived relative relatively intense um relatively intense but like i wouldn't say like we we ended better for the where you you know i mean of course look you learn from all of your experiences and to make your next one your next relationship your next experience improved but you know i i certainly wouldn't um call anybody twin flame soul or any of those uh labels and yet it's been given to me multiple times so either i'm operating on multiple planes at once and i don't know about it or perhaps these terms are being being thrown about uh a little bit a little bit loosely yeah yeah yeah you actually never talked with me about that that you've had that kind of like uh yeah well i'm being cause we're recording you know you're being watching you're being what i said i'm i'm being nice because we're recording yeah but i mean look you can feel an intense connection with a lot of people does that mean that there's some you know soul level i don't know who knows i mean we're just trying to put a l you know a description on things that are beyond description you know which is very difficult to do and you feel sometimes a deep connection with somebody but they could be a total [...] i guess that does come up in that subculture a lot where you see people kind of longing for someone that they have this connection with in their mind but the person might be a little bit you know uh personality disorder or something else wrong with them and you know people get kind of screwed up right around that i mean that does seem to happen if i'm gonna if i'm gonna be honest i'm gonna say that from my experience as a teacher in my experience as a person when someone says that that that someone is their twin flame it is generally a an excuse for poor behavior oh interesting that's what i find so someone says oh but they're my twin flame so i can feel oh twin it's excuse for poor behavior on the part of the other person yeah yeah yeah yeah as justification to like you know say well you know we are we're growing together and i'm learning through their experiences too i'm like well you know they're cheating on you all the time so i guess you're supposed to learn fidelity through their infidelity like i don't i guess if we want to do that we can do that but then we got to do that with everything and there are you know some behaviors that are just unbecoming of a of a couple you know what i mean to inflame or not yeah yeah or just like our pathological between people right so you don't want to go and say okay there's something pathological happening but we're going to call it a twin flame so it's okay right yeah yeah i think like in talking with people about this i've had um again because i had the experience i've been a person that other people could talk to about this so i have had something where people have been you know described to me like you know i have this really intense thing and i've been like okay i understand that i know what that's like you know and i've been able to talk with people about it from a place of uh you know understanding you know and empathy while at the same time still acknowledging what you're talking about too just because you feel that bond with that person and maybe they feel that bond with you too doesn't mean that that is going to work out or does it mean that person isn't going to be maybe incredibly flawed in ways you know that you can either decide that you understand or don't understand but you shouldn't put yourself in in front of a a you know a runaway train you know uh around this you have to acknowledge you see the person clearly see the person for who they are you know and then you know uh respond in a way that you know maybe acknowledges the fact that you have this bond with this person you feel this incredible love and bond for this person but you're also realistic about who they are you know and look at it through clear eyes and you can kind of like learn to do both of those things at the same time actually and i suppose in my conversations with people who've gone through this that's been one of the things that's happened and this is kind of just talking with people who are in love right you have to say to people you know okay you're in love and you can love that person um but you can also look at that person honestly right and see their their their flaws or see you know their their struggles and acknowledge that part two and then you then you're it's even more it's a more real way to love even right yeah it's it's uh you it's using all of the the various aspects of who we are as people to make an informed decision right so it's using your your intuition and your feelings to say this is a good person or whatever and it's using your your ability to just observe their behaviors and their actions in life and be like oh yeah and they're also a you know trustworthy individual or a stand-up guy or gal or you know whatever they identify as and it doesn't mean just because love is quote unquote blind doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to things that that could be detrimental like it just you know that's how it is so i um you know making a soft transition here that's how we focus how we like to do on this show i i wanted to throw out a a roomy poem that um i think i think would be nice so uh it talks about two kinds of intelligence and he says that there are two kinds of intelligence one acquired as a child in school memorizes facts and concepts with such intelligence you rise in the world there is another kind of tablet one already completed and preserved inside of you this other intelligence does not turn yellow or stack me it's fluid and it doesn't move from outside to inside through the conduits of plumbing and learning this second knowing is a fountain head from within you moving out and i think it's sort of uh highlights the what i my point of being able to have each kind of intelligent intelligence be active when you're choosing someone whether they're a soul mate or just somebody you met you know one night at a bar and you happen to keep hooking up with them you know years later i think that um i think that when you like take that roomy thing and you kind of put that into a like translated into buddhism ease or something like that what you end up with is that there's a value in things that you learn from your right that are pedagogically being taught to you and from your experiences and there's a sort of a value in the sort of inherent intelli intelligence that's there and what you might call like a buddha nature or something like that right uh your original shen and how you can kind of clearly see through things and i suppose when you get to talking about love you know you want to have both of those kinds of things operating right you want to like have your you know the deeper parts of your of your intuitive aspects of your mind going you can kind of appreciate who the person is and the love and the depth of the connection you have with them and you can also look at them kind of realistically too right look at the outer parts and that's that's the way that maybe you function in the world through love i want you to get together