[Music] heyy and tears no super like spiritually with spirituality with the twist couldn't get through that tag L after that [...] um all right hey everyone we're back uh and uh scat back in scatty and uh so um all right so we're we're going to do something a little bit different we got through our this big chunk of things that were kind of like relationship episodes and I'll talk about the new subject matter in a second but uh first I want to say one last thing about our last series of episodes just to make a clarifier on this um you know we were talking a lot about uh relationship structures we got talking about polyamory I know a lot of people in the poly community in Chicago and you know different things came up about that and one of the things I had kind of said was that there's a certain amount of people people who are interested in exploring their sexuality and there's a certain amount of like kiness you know and uh we both agree that that's fine yeah you know uh great do it do what's important to you so no judgment about any of those things at all but I realized as we were talking I wanted to say that like as in any other community you can't stereotype people either so I just make sure that I made that absolutely clear all kinds of people have all kinds of different motivations and all kinds of different reasons for doing the things that they do in that Community is well and there are some people who are probably interested in like um exploring sexuality in their ways and they do it but that doesn't mean they they want to do that in the context of longer term relationships I think in general they do there are people who are maybe non- kingsters um uh but uh you know and they have like their own Partnerships there are people who have really really long relationships too you know we talked about Carl Yung he was with the same person for 40 years but I know people have been with people for 20 years and 10 years and so on you know with the their relationships going strong so and it's it's diverse so I just wanted to make that clear especially with a community like that where it isn't well known and then if you say something it was kind of a little bit off the cuff for me but if you say something like that people can really glom on to those words and think oh that's all there is for this or something and then you get a lot of labeling or stereotyping or generalizations and I just wanted to make absolutely clear that it's a really diverse group of people with all kinds of different motivations and uh and all kinds of different ways that they're living their lives so I didn't want to like paint anything in to narrow of a box especially for Community like that that's small people may not know too much about and I guess the followup will be we'll have other people who will come on we have guests like lined up you know to come on and talk from their own personal experience with this so we'll hear from other people but I just wanted to make that clear you know I do think like especially now it fits into our episode a couple episodes ago you realize everything you say can be taken so serious so literally I guess you'd say right they've been talking about this for years I mean it's called the Miranda yeah everything that you say can and will be used against you yeah yeah well I mean I think we get a certain amount of people I mean we've had situations where like you dumbass who said that wrong right we've had that happen right um but for the most part people aren't too harsh with us I can't complain about that no but uh um with that I sort of realized that that was a big deal I just tell an anecdote about it because it hit me I was on I you know campus teaching you know my Chinese medical stuff and there's one of the students there and she said um we were just kind of joking around because I initially thought well she this person doesn't like me when we were initially in classes and then she was explaining uh she's from uh she's from Asia and she said no I just couldn't understand what you were saying and she said you use a lot of long words I was like do I I don't know but um so she was like you know for me is a a non English speaker not native English speaker and then we Dr we were laughing you know because you know we just kind of joking around and then she said well the other thing was uh I had heard on campus there was a big discussion that you don't like Aquarius people and I was like what do you tell what I said no it's a real thing that like people were saying that you don't like Aquarius and I'm aquarius so I thought you weren't gonna like me and I was like what how the hell did that happen and I realized I just made like one joke about this in a class um and it's definitely not true that I don't like Aquarius people I love y'all Aquarius you know and uh the joke was just about my first love who was the one that had such an impact on me that we talked about in other episodes she was the one that made me think about relationships differently right think about jealousy differently I think in a major way she was like part of the reason why I started even doing Zen in the beginning you know I still have furniture that she built for me in my house you know after all of these decades you know she may be like a great she was like her father was uh uh worked in like a a cabinet building so she had all these skills for doing this so I have like Furniture she made as gifts and things you know real important part of my life but I real was like okay so you could say one thing as an obvious joke because I said our relationship was combative but I just made a joke it's because Aquarius and Gemini you know that was just teasing uh but then people took it serious and I thought holy [...] people are going to take what you say so literal you know when even when you're obviously joking so anyways I just wanted to do that little bit of clarification because it you know it's a community that people don't know much about and then you know you might get things where people would start cing like stereotypes and I don't think there's any stereotypes in that community at all I think there's like incredible range of people doing different things so I just want to do that thanks for let me do that Daniel I wanted to say that stuff um and what do you think about the whole thing do you ever feel like you say something then P people take it much too literal or much too serious I don't know sometimes you don't know until people tell you back I was shocked I don't like aquarii Capricorns Well they suck no that's a teasing Daniel I'm just joking Daniel's are Capricorn in the thing but my both my parents are Capricorn Capricorn are lovely people I've never met a sign that they don't like I never had any experience like that they're all fine I'm leaving here you got you ever get taken to literal no no I guess you wouldn't know till someone told you right that's right all right um okay so for today we're moving into a new subject matter I thought the way to introduce this was just to talk about our conversation yesterday theni that we're trying to decide okay which way do we want to go we finished this whole big series we had done our things on political events and uh we had kind of like I had like two things if I was going to do the notes I had kind of two things in mind one was this thing called passionate Enlightenment which is about sort of Tantra and women's role in Tantra and the other was Book of Job by Carl Jung and I kind of just threw it out to Daniel as like just a what do you think Danny which are the ones which are the these ones do you want and then you said Book of Job And I was like holy [...] I gotta write something on Book of Job because it's one of the most complicated things we're ever going to talk about on this show I was like holy [...] of all the ones to choose Book of Job um there's only two choices there was a 50% chance I was going to choose this you know I know and that's I know the reason why you chose it you explained because now there's so much going on with religion in the world you know and so much going on with the stuff that you want to talk about yung's impression on this thing but I was a little bit like oh son of a [...] I have to finish this book which I just did today and um and it's really deep so I was like I gotta figure out how to talk about this thing because it's one of probably the more deep things Yung wrote so just as a little context he wrote it like in his late 70s and to me it really seems like he kind of just didn't give a [...] anymore what he said he was like okay I'm 76 years old or whatever he mentions in the book at some point and you get the feeling like he waited till there certain points in his life to say certain things and he was like you know this is it for me my stretch around I'm gonna say what the hell I want and so it seems like he does uh it's a real uh it's a kind of an incredibly like rich like complicated kind of book um um it's not a bad read on some level though it's challenging in Parts he's uh he writes it you know it's a very um what's the name of the book Eric for it's called answer to job okay answer to job by Carl Jung okay it does fit because we're talking about Jung and it does fit in the sense that you know we were looking at um I thought I said it earlier if I didn't that's bad on me answer to job by Carl Yun so he's commenting on all kinds of things in the Bible psychologically espec The Book of Job which we'll talk about um and he goes over sort of big swats of like biblical stuff really talking about from sort of this quirky psychological point of view and then he offers his commentaries and sometimes he drops in things that are pretty Ry like you know he'll be kind of going on and all of a sudden he'll make like a little like semi snarky little remark you know so he'll be telling something and then he'll say like like hm I wonder why God didn't use his omniscience to figure out that Satan was going to do that huh that's a curiosity and then he'll continue on you know with like kind of relating these stories and giving his interpretation so it's like it's a Funnier book to try to like talk about but I think um we'll try to do the best we can to summarize all some of his big ideas in this you know yeah in a interesting way there's major parts that we're going to be talking about today where it's almost as if he's like psychoanalyzing God and that's a kind of an interesting approach to take because he keeps going what's God like what's God's personality what are God's you know like maybe issues and stuff which you don't hear too much and he does it like in this very I mean it's serious it has a little bit of a playful vibe to it some of the parts are really kind of written a little sardonic or ironically so and he also is like young so he's bouncing all over the place with stuff so you know as far as myip part this I'll try to do the best J I can in presenting the ideas so so he's psychoanalyzing God or in a different way he's psycho psychoanalyzing the cultural factors that were produce this way of thinking about a God but he kind of plays around like he's doing a little bit of both of those things I mean what do you think the idea of like psycho analing psychoanalyzing God is kind of amusing yeah I think that's fun yeah it's fun so um so in that sense it's a religious and it's a spiritual book um I wanted to comment the second like see what you think about this two Daniel about why a book like this would still matter because some people might feel like well I'm not conventionally religious so this book doesn't matter for me so much but um I think part of the point he's trying to make is that this whole culture that we live in is so influenced by this stream of thought whether you're a religious person or a non-religious person you're living in the culture that's the down product of this whole like Millennia of this way of thinking um I'm sure you agree with that too right yeah actually have a newer patient who she's in her mid 60s right now and I was just kind of explaining to her the massive difference between her and somebody F somebody 25 years her Junior you know between essentially Boomers and Millennials yeah yeah yeah the the difference in mentality and and whatever is is hundreds of years of growth in a in such a short amount of time it's interesting because the boomers are the parents of the Millennials too it's a weird generational thing so it it's so spread apart it's so spread apart that you know looking at that from a psychological perspective can give you insight into like previous ways and how the world was versus how the world isn't everybody obviously his case by case but just a technology that was available so it I don't know there just there's so there's so much different between the way people think kind of pushing your way in can give you really almost deep cognition into how the pressures of society were were pushing on them you know to kind of fit in and conform and and everything else um it it is kind of a fascinating thing yeah I Al I mean like as I was thinking about trying to make the point of this I I thought about like Jean paulart the French philosopher has a thing where he talks about Western culture and he basically says something like at a certain point you you took out all the religious stuff and you just left the culture continuing on you know so you lost the religious backdrop you made everything about Evolution but now Evolution produce all the same stuff you know that the culture produced which is that's quite a coincidence yeah you know H and so once you see that you realize oh no it's a continuation of this same line of thought you just kind of move some of the the dressing around right you change the gown on the person but you they walked out and it's the same person underneath the clothes the emperor is the same underneath the clothes the same yeah and I I think to your point even as we move as we move forward you know like religion quote unquote Falls away but yet to your point like all the influences are are still totally there they're just muted in a different way The Gatekeepers change you know and and some of the the societal expectations change but you just have to scratch the surface you know and which you know I'm reminded of the episodes that we you know we just did on the relationship stuff you know like there are far more swingers parties you know now than there have been before that there's a a community of people who are more open to working changing their concept of attachment and so on and so forth that's still a small tiny swath of and it it could be small it's I mean look at the numbers it's probably you know now they do say that in an American person's life it's more likely that people will be in something like that statistically you know what I mean sure and as far as I can understand that the number of women engaging in like yes extral extal marital activities is like skyrocketing but like overall people who would be like okay I'm gonna try to live my life in a different way no matter what it is it's still gonna be pretty small it's gonna be pretty small yeah but otherwise it's kind of like this flow of this culture that we're still living in so to understand the culture flow is I think is really important right I mean even if you think of we we'll go pop culture reference which we don't always do but if you remember the song by Outcast I'm Sorry Miss jacksson I don't I know that one oh you never heard that song I do this with each other but GNA do it I'll be Eric for a second you never heard of Sor Miss Jackson I'm Sorry Miss Jackson I am for real you never heard of that anyways I'm sure most of our audience I think my Renditions are that like like in the cyer ball anyways okay so but it's a very very popular song Sorry Miss Jackson uh Outcast and in it one of the lines said by uh oh it's what's his name what's his Andre 3000 Andre 3000 yeah repl uh cheat cheating and beating replaced the CH with a b and it's almost the same thing oh okay but it's not even close actually no it's not even close all actually it's not even close at all it's not even close Andre 3000 is kind of a quirky dude right I know but I'm saying like that he felt in in you know in in that song which is you know an apology to someone's mom for not being a great partner to their daughter you know that like that was part of it so I'm saying you scratch the surface on this and there is that cultural influence yeah it's still there no it's all over the place yeah yeah yeah so even even if you remove the religious you know what we believe to be religious influences on our culture we still the seed is the same and it's a puritanic that's kind of my point there's still like a line going through where a lot of the same values and ideas are kind of there sure even though the religious parts of it justifications you could use that word I suppose religious associations if you want to be a little bit more kindhearted about it right aren't there anymore the same underlying thought process is kind of there like you changed part of like the super structure but the substructure stayed kind of the same right the underlying flow stay the same yes yes and I don't know what it's going to mean about like religion or spirituality as the future goes forward you know we'll have to see what it means this is a complete decide though but did you ever see the Key and Peele where they do while they'll never be an outcast reunion oh yeah yeah yeah yeah because that Andre 2000 is so weird yeah because he's so weird it's a good I can recommend that video that's one of the one of the important key andele videos right there that's funny totally totally worth it yeah though the best one is the one where they're texting yes just if you want to hook up on a q&p video that's really funny and so true yes it's the one where they're texting and like the texting goes worse and worse and worse till the one guy's ready to show up at the bar with a bat full of nail love the other dude's all chill and he's hi it's like you know they just completely misunderstand each other and the one guy super pissed off and the other guy's just like chilling at the bar because the texts were so misunderstood between the two of them classic so true um you know the one thing is I don't know where it's going to go for religion and and non-religion with this Jung does have a point like he makes towards the end of the book that's not like uh it's not commenting on the Bible or something he's just talking about religion at the time that he's writing and he does say you're going to get two camps of people you're going to get religious people and you're going to get sort of people he describes as agnostic but he's really talking about agnostic atheist you know and he makes this weird point that or interesting point and weird Point that's that's goong right there weird and interesting where he says you know with both these groups of people they both have a weird kind of he doesn't use the phrase existential fear but it's kind of like that neither one of them want to look too close at things the religious person doesn't want to look too close because they don't want to see the religion get too challenged and potentially fall apart so if it's a faith-based religion sometimes if you look too close at it it starts to unravel and so there's a little bit of a fear of that you don't want to look too close at things because it might start to crumble and there's some intuitive sense that the person has you know I believe in what I'm believing but if I looked at it more closely I might start to question it my mind might get more critical on points of it and it might start to unravel so I better not look too close and then he says on the other side people might be much more bold about saying you know I'm a you know a much more intellectual person a much more rational person but they don't want to look too close at [...] either because if they start looking too close it starts to look a little Hollow and empty and their existential meaning won't be there and that'll start to crumble for them so nobody wants to look too close and I thought well that's an interesting point since we're just talking about you know religion and like the way it's playing out in culture some people yes some people know uh he does address it and I thought well that's a very astute observation like I'd buy that I don't think anybody wants to wants to look too close because there's a certain existential fragility and either one of those two directions so that's his observation what do you think of that one I thought that that's well said yeah I bias yeah yeah it's an interesting point it fits into the podcast in the sense of like we're trying to promote this idea of like looking thoughtfully critically at your life looking thoughtfully and critically at things you believe and it it's challenging a little bit right to do that and I mean and ultimately you know thought critically at yourself and everything you know like like you know like I mean your life yes but then in in in the as the title your life but the chapters of the book are what you do with your relationships what you do with your career what you do with your free time what are you doing with your attention that's our Jin and Tantra book we've outlined yeah yeah what are you doing with your energy what are you doing with your sexuality with your creativity you know all of these things I mean this is our book really that's that's the book I have like the buddhistic kind of mindset too that like things are determined by the mind the attitude the thoughts you have right those structures are going to determine how you see the world yeah I mean you know it's emotion in mind together it's emotion and mind together but yeah and you know I I sit on the side of that you are you do have genetic influences whether we call them genetic influences historical influences ancestry you know whatever that that that will affect your your Tendencies and some physicalities that can be unlocked via good life if you take care of yourself you know or you can unlock some idiopathic neurological issues or some chronic stuff that could be latent in your DNA because of who knows why you know who knows why certain people are pro certain families are prone to having Crohns or irritable mile syndrome or you know whatever asthma you know what I'm saying there there's different medical correlations as to why they have them now but like why is it that stress in one person's life gave them hives and somebody else gave them bloody diarrhea you know like it's you know so I I do I agree with you I don't know what to what percent I lean on the ancestral genetic part but it it I I don't I don't I can't give it a zero you know what I'm saying I guess it's more like I couldn't give it a zero either because there's like karmic factors within that too that but yeah you know I again gu it's just all fair you know I have to kind of go with the kind of Buddhist the idea though too that like ultimately if you analyze your mind it's going to be those features wherever those things are arising from are the things that going to make a determination of like what's possible for you how you see things or whatever yeah but it is true you know like those things aren't coming from nowhere they're coming from previous sources right whether than your own individual Karma if you want to be more shamanic about it which I know you love that thing of like you know the the shamanic line of the ancestry coming in too and I I try to always keep that in mind when we're talking now that we talk about it more you like my dad had like this major car crash when I was a kid it's one of the formative parts of my life it's my very first memory in life is my dad having this car crash and like he was car no no but I remember like my my mom hearing about it it's kind of an interesting tangent thing maybe we'll talk about it at some point but like your first memory in life is pretty interesting well we're in it now so you might as well talk then we'll talk about you right psychologists people wanted to talk about psychologist this is Alfred odler and he said his first question the patience was always like what's your first memory with the idea that even if it's fictitious it's still what the person says or even if it's not their very first memory but it's how they answer the question for me I have a very clear kind of first memory of my mom sitting at the bottom of the stair and she just got the call that my dad was almost couldn't be dead actually to be honest I mean the accident was really bad and she was sitting at the bottom of the stairs and I kind of walked down the stairs and I put my arms around her kind of in that kid way where you just kind of reach out you know and just wrap your arms around the person you sort of know there's something wrong but you don't totally know what it is you know when you're a kid I was maybe like three or something like that two three years old and um and so I just did that like okay I better give some TLC thing and I just kind of hug my mom you know kind of just knowing you know there's something wrong I don't know what it is obviously it's serious and that's my first memory you know and uh the idea is I guess with memories if you see it out of your own eyes then it's probably more real and this definitely is sort of like I'm seeing it through my own peepers sometimes people well you'll get a first memory and it look like it's a movie from the outside and I guess rech research shows that might be more because other people told you about story and you see it more like a story from the outside but if you see it through your own eyes it's more like your own autobiographical memory probably really happening there so that's my first one yeah um yeah my first memory is ice cream my first memory is of ice cream cake yeah that's a little difference my second birthday party we had ice cream cake and I totally remember eating it and being like oh this is the best you took cake and ice cream which I love both of them and you put it together oh this is sacrilegious so this is supposed to tell you something about the nature of the person okay yeah I like blue clowns that taste like cake and ice cream I have a slightly tragic backstory yeah um no it's really funny um some of them are really serious and some of them are really tiny like I do know other people like if you ask people about it you know even in your circle it's kind of interesting to hear what people say it is a good question to ask yeah so one person that was like well you know we were supposed to have a party for me another party thing but it rained so we had to had the party inside and we have a great time inside instead that's like one person's memory you know that's not a very dramatic story you know but some of them are pretty dramatic I had one person I was asking it to and both of her parents were schizophrenics and uh she eventually like uh what was with her mom you know her mom left being you know in in in clinic you know went out it was like living more on her own and they were in a church hostel up in the Chicagoland area and she woke up as a little girl and the building was burning down around her so she just woke up in this blazing fire and had to get like rescued out of the building that's her first memory whoa yeah so some are pretty deep some are pretty deep anyways if you want to I mean listeners out there if you want to ask an interesting question to somebody it's like it's Albert aler the Great psychologist question you know that's gonna tell you something about the person whatever they say I got one I guess I can share that's a little Chinese medical for our Chinese medical folks I usually tell this one but I had patient who had like all of these digestive issues and then also probably had a real hard time doing what they call in Chinese mess and separating the clear and the turbet and that means like can you digest well can you separate the the the what's of nutritional value in your GI trct and send the rest of it down to get eliminated right they sometimes talk about the small intestine doing that work but Chinese medicine being what it is that's also considered to be like a little bit like a psychological thing too yeah can you figure out to clear from the turban in your actual life and then what's valuable that you should keep and hold on to like this is a good relationship this is a good job opportunity for me this is a good choice to make in some part of my life and this is what should we let go of people who can't do that they make decisions but the decisions are I guess you'd say the pun kind of shitty because I can't figure out the clear from the turbed you know so I was asking like this patient about this and I asked her her first memory just out of curiosity do you get to know people more you know and she said her first memory she was walking down the street with her mom and her sister and she reached down to pick something off the ground that she thought was like a Baby Ruth candy bar but it was a turd oh and she was gonna pop it in her mouth no yes I know no fortunately her mom and sister saw it and they went no and she dropped this turd right in the nick of time and I heard the story and I couldn't help thinking to myself like oh my God that's her first memory she couldn't tell the clear from the turban like ever oh wow that's the first memory and I thought oh that's so telling anyways we're planning on it but there was we did have one email there was like talk about some psychology stuff so there's some psychology stuff worthwhile trying out in your in your circle of friends even and ask you know it's kind of fascinating what is it ask your Lov ones good question when people have been tossing back a few gin Jin and ton yeah it's the it's yeah the Gin Tantra when people are vulnerable with the gin and tonics yeah for sure drop it in there um all right so I with all of that we guess we can talk about y right so the book is called answer to job and so what's he trying to do so he his point is initially about job though he's going to go through all their kinds of books of the Bible and I was just finishing up his stuff on the Book of Revelations which is like pretty deep so our plan is to do maybe the first part with job see how it goes and then maybe we'll just do one other episode of followup because he says so many like interesting things by the end but this is sort of like maybe the the initial heart of what he's trying to do but it builds on this core so first off I guess how you got the story of job do you know that one well yeah I mean I graduated from uh North Park University which is on the north side of Chicago Illinois and it is part of the Swedish Covenant therefore uh requirement for graduation is uh Bible study and theology amongst some other courses so I have had you know I've had that as a as a class you know and in world religion and whatnot but taking as a college course the you know it's an interesting it's a it's a more I guess academic way of looking at the the Old Testament or the New Testament and then based on the papers that you wrote for it you would dive into something and they allowed really completely in total like independent thought and we're just happy to be talking about even though it was a little bit of like a theologically driven school on some level they have a seminary half of their school is a Seminary oh so interesting okay I me I knew you went there but I didn't know how much the Seminary influence was there you know what I mean so it was like you know I think for for their they're known for their nursing and teaching oh okay I see oh that makes sense SW Covenant yeah that makes sense yeah but like you know they have a good other other Ed I mean it doesn't matter the point is that like part of your education were regardless of what your major is is you have to take um a Bible course did you have any particular reactions to the Book of Job do you have any thoughts of it initially before I even say what has to say ini well we should probably just give a back let's tell the St let's tell the story but then we can kind of yeah that's right we can give our Impressions along the way okay cool that's a good way to do it so the first thing I do if you don't know this story and a lot of people wouldn't necessarily right correct um um so here's the story of job so initially in the first scene it shows job and he's like a happy King ER and he has a lot of faith and belief in God and you know seriously religious person right he's a farmer yeah he's wealthy though right yeah yeah yeah like yeah I mean way back when you being a big he had a big farm animals servants and and yeah yeah yeah so uh yeah so yeah fill in the blanks wherever I and I put stuff in that might be important I kind of did it like out of my Recollections of it you might recollect different things about this so in the initial scene after that that it's Satan and God but this is Satan probably a Yung kind of makes a point like this is Satan before the fall kind of uh whatever that means because who know when this fall is supposed to have happened right obviously they're together and at this point it's not like they're mortal enemies or something like that it's kind of the older maybe uh Satan the way you might talk about a little bit more in the Jewish tradition historically where that was sort of the adversary who would um you know I guess I challenge people argue against people or something like that you know there there's a challenging Divine figure but not like evil necessarily right at this point though Jung makes a point about like ultimately gonna become like an evil figure so he does it's one of those points where he says like well how come he doesn't recognize the intentions of his son Satan he keeps saying that like why does he not seee Satan's intentions he calls keeps saying God's son Satan that's one his little like Ry lines he keeps like dropping in at points but um so they have a bet that happens there's a like kind of a wager that happens here um God asked Satan what do you think about my servant job he's such a loyal servant and Satan says he's only loyal because you're always nice to him if you were not nice to him and you like put him through deprivation he would not be nice to you he would turn on you and he probably would curse you you know and God's like no no no no that's not true and they kind of debate this right and then the wager happens right so that's you know that part of the book um now I've read some Scholars on this that say that that's probably a tack on to explain the story probably the original story didn't even have that explanation at all there was no explanation in the original version it has something to do with the Linguistics around it it looks like it's not written by the same whoever the authors were of that it looks like it's from a different linguistic kind of style or something but anyway that's the story so then um in response to this wager job loses everything his kids are killed his servants are killed he loses all of his wealth eventually I think he's covered in boils like laying in the ashes yeah I mean if I remember like there really int yeah there was like a a PL you know some kind of like natural disease that killed all the animals there was a fire on his farm like you know this happened step by step and and at each step job refuses to forsake his faith at every step right the devil's like this one's gonna do it yeah he's gonna say it now when I take all his animals away and then they all die and nah and then when I take his servants away and we take his house away and his land away and his health away and all that other kids away eventually like yeah gos off his kids so it's like it's this kind of progressively ugly ugly ugly thing you know uh yeah till the end I think he's ultimately like covered in boils I guess and like laying in the ash or something is the way I kind of looked at it again you I didn't remember all the details yeah but along the way he refuses to curse God he has a couple of friends so so there's this part where his friends come up and they're like uh well you must be a sinner and so on right and uh that's the reason why God is giving you all this hard time and he's like no I'm not and he uses to accept the commentary of like his different friends and they give different arguments I don't remember the details of it I don't remember you do Daniel BR me that Jung doesn't focus a lot on it he just kind of says you know people come up and they keep saying like you must be getting uh Divine judgment or something and J's like no I've like been like completely cool the whole time I've been doing everything I haven't done anything wrong at all so he argues with his friends you know that's one of the key points of the book he keeps arguing this point you know no I've been there's no there's no nothing I've done that I'm receiving sort of Retribution for and he keeps building and I guess at some point even his wife is like well now you have to curse God now come on and he still is like no so that's the whole buildup of the book till eventually I should say there's some monologues in the middle yeah he yeah yeah but there's a real point where it builds to and Jung makes a big deal about this where he just says it builds to this point where job is like I want an explanation from God that's it I demand an explanation for why these things are happening to me because it's not because I wasn't a good follower you know and I didn't do anything to deserve like again Divine judgment or something like that so he's like he just is demanding this and after that God does appear and he appears I guess it's described as in like a whirlwind he appears almost like this kind of force right in a whirlwind and as Yung Jung's way of describing it is that he definitely demonst rates his power and omnipotence he just appears as this like powerful force and says hey and job is demanding this explanation and uh as Jung kind of points out it never happens there's no justification all God does is kind of like show all of his power show all of his power show all of his power and just kind of declare you know I'm the creator of everything Were You There When I laid the foundation for the Earth no I was the one who did it and he kind of does that right again I'm giving yung's take on this right and job tries to answer back at some points right he tries to answer back but God almost like as Jung says just like talks right over him and demonstrates this power and authority and job is left kind of like and the whole book ends where God reprimands the friends of job who were criticizing him because he didn't do anything wrong and then job gets kind of like everything his fortunes turned back again and things build up so the book ends in this positive way so that's the Book of Job anything I missed that you think was important no I mean but at that back in those days they got married very young so his wife at this point was only 21 so it was still they could they had like a whole another generation of kids yeah yeah um okay so what does Yung say about this this is the story now it is an unusual story right it's unusual uh in that I especially in the original version if there's no explanation of the bet with Satan at all there's no explanation given you know and that might have been the original text but it's still an unusual story and I don't know if there's anything I think Yung is fascinating because I don't think there's anything else in the Bible quite like that there are other kind of like striking stories but it's striking right I think the Book of Jonah is kind of interesting just as another little biblical thing because that's the one where God tells Jonah to go warn the people I guess it's Nivea like if you don't clean up your act I'm going to trash your city and Jonah refuses to do it and he does it because he wants Justice to go to Nivea so it's kind of a different version on this he wants Nivea to get punished and that's the whole thing where he goes out on the boats and the god starts making the sea go crazy and you know so the boat that he's on all the sailors are gonna be killed and they all start going okay which God is causing this problem which of our gods and then Jonah eventually goes like Oh it's my God because I'm doing this thing I was commanded to do something I didn't do and they all try to help the boat but eventually they're like uh well we can't really do anything about this and Jonah says fine I don't want to have you all have the problem he jumps off the boat and that's how he ends up in the whale so that's the Jonah and the whale story right which I guess ends up in Pinocchio probably right doesn't Pinocchio open in a whale um uh but God kind of saves Joon uh Jonah in this whale and then spits up up on the shore so he has to go again to tell these people and he's like very bitter about it and he goes in and he warns people and everybody listens and the whole City's saved and this pisses him off so he sits under a like a little tree that God makes grow in the sun it's really hot and he's sitting there just like pouting I guess under this tree and then God kills the tree so he's just in the sun sweating angry and God goes like well you know did you H why are you so mad are you mad because I spared this city and Jonah sayses and then he says likewell you know there are many children in that City and there were many animals there are many innocent people in that City and you know and I think he said something are you mad because I killed the tree and he's like yes the tree was making my life Shady for a little bit and uh and anyways in the end the whole point is supposed to be like I'm the one who's going to decide I told you to do it right it's up to you to be vengeful against these people you have to be forgiving or something anyways that's a take so there are these stories that are interesting if you don't know the Bible at all we told two I thought it might be good to tell the Jo the story because a lot of people don't know any of these stories you know they never heard any of them and they are like kind of interesting in the culture right all right so this gets to the Jon the job thing though right he gets judged all this terrible stuff happens it might have to do with a bet with Satan certainly Jung takes that interpretation right okay so where does he run with this thing in the end so here's yung's response and uh it creates this incredible moment of like thought here takes it in a direction that probably you would never think of EX unless you're young to be honest so he goes makes this incredible statement he says this is the moment when humankind shows its superiority to God in this moment so he says this is the moment where human beings starts doing this human beings start doing this special thing and the way human beings this is Young the way human beings show their Superior to God is not in terms of power because per Jung's point of job is definitely like I don't have your power I don't have it you have the power and I don't so job concedes that point but in Jung's take job never conceives the point that what he got was deserv it he never says that you know and the moment again yung's take on this this moment then is job realizing I am I am ethically superior yeah and morally Superior and in some ways I have more insight than God that's yung's take which is like he says an incredible shift in human consciousness to start thinking this thought and it means something for him like really deep in the whole concept of how human beings are going to think about themselves and how humans going to think about religiosity and their connection to God so I never had that thought necessarily in reading that book but this is what Yung says and he says people have an Insight that God lacks people are able to have insights that God are not able that God is not able to have and he'll continue on this to like what the issue is but essentially what he ends up talking about is God has a distinct internal lack of knowledge about himself he's lacking knowledge about his own internal world and his own internal truths God can't see himself he does the power thing but he doesn't have the insight into himself he's lacking it H and so uh uh what Yung starts to say is God has wait for it drum roll an unconscious God has his own unconscious right the way human beings would have an unconscious a blind spot inside of oursel that we're not aware of God has this right and that's the reason why he acts out in the way that he does is Jung's Point God has this limitation specifically in the area of his like omniscience there's all these things that he can't see and um he's blind to this and you keeps going throughout the whole book he'll keep using this phrase like why doesn't God check his omnition why is he never checking his omnition and again he'll talk through a story like like uh Genesis you know with the Garden of Eden and all that God should know everything that's going to happen he's supposed to be omnicient yet he always seems to be constantly shocked by everything that's going down and then he young will say he constantly seems to be shocked by this snake why is he shocked you know he's constantly surprised so he points out that there's like this weird thing in this vision and I know like it's kind of mentioned to say what the entire picture of what he's trying to say partially about I guess the nature of God and partially about the nature of human beings recognizing these features even up to the point of in God or something right that you can have and then conscious that you're born mind so the one of the points of like lacking that Yung says is that God lacks this sense of uh he doesn't really true have he doesn't have true omniscience he is he has an omniscience that he never checks he has a knowing that he doesn't he's cut off from for some reason now the reason Yung says he's cuts off cut off is really interesting that might be a cliffhanger for the next episode in some level right but he definitely says he's lacking this but he also says he's lacking in kind of like a certain kind of goodness that there's a goodness lacking in this Divine figure right because he's so harsh and judgmental right and why is he like this and as Yung goes forward he kind of says yeah God God has an unconscious God has kind of a dark side then that he isn't aware of entirely and in a certain sense if you know y psychology he's kind of saying God has a shadow because because he's cut off from aspects of himself when you get cut off he makes this point through the whole book when things are cut off when you're cut off from aspects of yourself and they get kind of like into the psychology of the unconscious then they tend to come out kind of ugly he keeps making this point you know the thing that you're not aware of will go into the unconscious and kind of fester and then something will come out as a shadow so it almost seems like he's saying God has an unconscious and then God has a shadow that comes out which leads to some of this and I could say something in the Book of Job this acting out okay I'm G throw it back to you for Daniel because this is a deep Theology and you gotta tell me what you think it's not easy but the point is then let me ask you up to this point because there's something that happens with I'll save this so what do you make of this so far have you ever heard anything like that I've never heard anything like that well kind of Blown Away I was like huh no well we've talked about this before because this is the the point of the you know um Indians kind of vidonic thought that conscious that that human consciousness is the larger Consciousness attempting to see itself I mean that does c an Indian thought and I I know what you mean so I think Yung was probably influenced by that I think he did know that stuff obviously and he was like you know God creates creation so that he can know more through the view of cre that's kind of like the idea of it right yes yeah yeah but like this being analyzed in the way that God has issues right that's a that's a totally interesting take that's an interesting take I never heard anything like that but I think I mean if I'm you know I mean if I'm gonna put my psychologist hat on I'm also gonna say that like he's probably also referencing how Society views God also yeah I think that's right it's playall how he does it because sometimes he's like it's like he's writing like there's this being out there and he's taking it like as a literal thing and it's sort of an interesting like it's it's funny to read on some level right you know here's God God has issues I'm not gonna explain I'm gonna psycho analyze like God I'm gonna psychoanalyze God and explain God's issues for you sometimes he's like that tone but sometimes it's more like what you're saying I had the same thought sometimes he's more saying these are the issues of the society they're producing yeah this vision of what a God is yeah yeah when I so when I was in in undergrad at at North Park and I had to you know do a paper I think I did a paper on uh the story of Daniel from the Old Testament ah and um which I'm not going to get into now because we're running tight on time but the the the and we have to give our own take on it you know and so I gave the take on it that Daniel was communicating because he didn't they didn't they never talked about him they talked about him not having parents ah and so in the story then I he always he ref refer to God as father and so I for me it seemed logical that he is speaking to the being whom he considers his Giver of Life his literal father you know yeah and so then taken through that it's the you I I saw I tried to see the eye the story Through The Eyes of a child communicating with their parent oh okay that's a take that's interesting right yeah and he has all these Visions so if you don't to much he's a prophet he has all these Visions right yes yeah and so for me a you know someone having visions is much people more easily can relate to that when they're younger and they're have being they're more imaginative you know they're more playful that way you know so this was the paper that I wrote I mean we I haven't this is in 2008 that I wrote this so it's been a long time since maybe 2007 even so it's been a long time since I've thought about it but that was my I remember because that my teacher even said at that time he's like this is a unique Viewpoint of this particular story you know and so why I'm not that surprised by this is that like this was something that was that that's been latent to me the personification and the like and for for young in this case the specific personification as in like God has a mind and that mind is flawed like ours you know these very specific ways you know so yeah he's like basically doing Yi analysis on God yes yeah which is like very funny but of course it also overlaps with the idea of like he's psychoanalyzing the culture that's producing this Vision correct right you know how they're thinking and at this moment something happens in human consciousness okay so the weird part that happens next and we you know we'll do this part and then we'll like Let It Roll for next week but yeah uh the weird part is job sees this in yung's take he says job sees oh this was totally unfair and he never lets it go so this is Job's Insight of saying oh this God is flawed this God has this lack and it creates this weird dynamism in the story here here Jung's take is like in the moment it looks like God does his kind of like a fireworks display right of omnipotence you know special effects everywhere right and job is like overwhelmed right what's he gonna do he can't do that but his point isn't that at all his point is not about omnipotence his point is about something else and so he's arguing back right he does argue right and there's never an answer given God just over whelms him with this power yeah and Jo goes oh okay I see it so now there's a lack right so then yug says God realizes this later almost like you have an argument and you get super mad and you storm out you think you won and then later on you're like oh maybe I didn't win that argument after all you know maybe it was just me storming around so afterwards God then real God has the Insight like I lost that argument that's kind of his take on this and then God goes okay um for Jung then I mean I put it in the notes for Jung this has an amazing the like the theological consequence like culturally and like religiously because all of a sudden God's like oh wait a minute I have I'm having a moment of insight God has a moment of epiphany or something kind of in this way doesn't say in exactly those words but that kind that's kind of the vibe and then uh so the point is that this changes everything for because what it means and this is like the Capper of this episode maybe is that the manifestation of Jesus is not to forgive people for their sins that's not what it's supposed to be about what Yung is saying the manifestation of Jesus is for God to atone for his sins against people and so and in the way that you were talking about maybe in Indian culture to appear in a human form to gain Insight that job had that he lacked something like that so it twists the whole story like upside down right so Jesus is appearing for a different reason so God can know things through the eyes of like job to get the Insight that job had right and so he totally twists that story he just we' done episodes on nascis and so Yung was influenced by that where you just twist the story right all of a sudden Eve eating the apple is the best thing to do you know because she's trying to like do something positive and the snake is the good guy and so on you know so it's quite a Twist aoo in story right uh so God does this to make up kind of for himself to atone for this and to I guess in a deeper way really to get inside and so the idea is that God needs to become human in order to have the Human Experience to have the Insight that will then allow him to gain self- knowledge that will change his orientation towards things or something that's the take and um and then you know this again will allow God to come overcome the limitations he has set up because of his own unconscious so he could start to see things from a different point of view and like I don't know I never read anything like that either no I have to admit I was like whoa yeah that's um that's deep that's impressive yeah I was like huh well that's a take you know that's impressive there are sometimes you know I mean I'm always impressed by people my patients teach me stuff whenever I teach classes to students always teach me stuff like I'm one of the dumbest dumb Dums out there for sure you know I'm just con that's that's not true I'm just constantly learning but when you when you hear something like that at least for me I'm like damn if he thinks that way about that I'm wonder what he thinks about all other kinds of stuff because that's anything like that any moment of of intelligence I thought I'd ever had when you compare it to that nah I'm I'm a lollipop a dumb Dum that's what I would be if if I was a a Halloween candy you know what I mean like yeah I mean for someone to come up with an idea like that I was like you know so when I was I mean I was like partially like you listen just to share the experience of that you listen and you're partially like what yeah and you partially laugh a little bit because it's such an interesting like twist it's amusing on some level right but it's also kind of profound right it's a profound absurdity yeah well I guess it's absurd like what would you say it's absurd because the point of view is the opposite right the point of view is that it's human beings that are supposed to be so bad right yes yep and he flips it right and fun way I was literally talking with a patient of mine today about like societal pressures and the idea of original sin oh yeah and she's like talks about it she's like what does a baby do they what are they doing wrong I was like they were born shouldn't have been born should have known better yeah well this inter because when you move over like you know we were both raised in Christian backgrounds right and uh when you move over into Asian spirituality there's no original sin it doesn't exist so that's gone right yeah he says something really interesting about that too he says is so his part of his we'll build to what he says about JC Jesus later on right because he this continues to build in ways you're like where's he going with this after he does this but it does continue to build and as it builds uh you you again you're kind of impressed but it was this whole thing of like uh he gets at some point where he's saying like God and Divinity and humans have to become one it has to happen right and he says it in kind of a weird way it's almost like again he's such a complicated writer in so many ways but he's basically saying as long as you have this split where there's an absolute division between like the Divine which is supposed to be the Perfection and the human being which is supposed to be be the [...] the original sin all the bad stuff right then what will happen is human beings will always take on the projection of the dark side God so human beings will always be seen through the dark shadow part of the unconscious of God and I you know you're kind of start thinking what does that mean that means that in a certain sense God is projecting his own shadow on the human beings and they're like being seen in this crap way and as long as that's happening there's going to be this terrible dysfunction and how are going to think essentially right God is going to be all perfect human beings are going to be crap and human beings will take on the role of being crap and then all this I mean in certain sense he's saying all this Shadow Dark Side unconscious stuff within the Divinity will get projected trippy really trippy what do you make out of it does it sound I mean I'm not religious in this way so I don't have a stake in this game uh you know I I think this these religious Traditions are fascinating I've learned things from them them I love the cabala but I don't have a stake in the game of finding this offensive do you think people would find this offensive I don't know [Laughter] absolutely [...] I mean does a is a does a stove can a stove burn your hand if you touch it while it's on for sure yeah do the pope [...] in the woods yeah that's right he does if he's got if he ate a burrito 100% does a bear wear a funny hat does the if he was elected if he was elected pop yeah it's like one of those things where you're kind of like huh you know so I listen to it and I don't find it offensive I'm like I find it fascinating you know yeah a cultural statement because I don't have a stake in that God right you know but I was like I wonder how offensive people would find that I would imagine fairly offensive but I mean I think on the other hand like again I went to that Swedish Covenant School you know Christian school and they totally allowed for freedom of thought I guess it depends on like how yeah how much you have invested you know I I mean I think on some level people in religion if they're if they're being genuine are happy that people are just engaging with the teachings in general uh that's a truth to that I mean if you're a teacher and someone gets you get a thoughtful essay essay like the one you did on the Book of Daniel you're like oh okay this guy put some of his self in here he really yeah you you know okay let's talk you know like okay we'll talk we we break it down I mean they're Tales so you're supposed to learn from them so they're teaching they're teaching tools right they're teaching Tales so the fact that like somebody has an Insight that that takes a tale or takes a narrative and just literally reflects it does does a one complete you know 90 or 180 degree reflection on the narrative itself shows a the capability of people's minds to not just accept stories as they're told but to turn them actually which means that they might be able to do the same for themselves in their own lives you know and to be able to question things and make different decisions so it's a it's a deep dive into the psychology of one person but also uh it leaves open the possibility that people could have that for themselves within their own sphere of looking at philosophy religion God whatever Yung is kind of fascinated by this Union of opposites kind of like influenced a lot by like yin and yang kind of thinking too right and so he's constantly playing this thing and so I think what the point he's getting here is like it's not just for human beings are getting something where they are going to have to connect spiritually to something above themselves or something however you want to frame that right yeah but also the Divinity is getting something too it's a union that has to happen it's a union of opposites and he keeps kind of playing this through he's interested in like uh Alchemy too and the union of opposites which produces transformation that obviously fascinates him that's a little bit where he was on relationships too the union of oppos opposites or the union of you know things coming together they have a chemical power and I think that's part of the way the pitch goes forward this meaning of like the Divine and the human is like something that has to happen it's it's a integrating together right and I think he probably feels like that has to happen within the culture too people have to come to some place where they feel they need to have this Union you know not this PO ization of it's really subtle what he's trying to say he's saying until human beings can do this they're going to be psychologically unhealthy and dangerous potentially you know because they're gonna have like they're not they're not they're either GNA be like thinking of themselves as crap or they're gonna have rigid ideas of what's happening in terms of their religion and their spirituality and they're they're not they're not uniting in a spiritually productive way you have to unite human and divine to grow evolve and develop so we can get to be better that's part of its point and that will be how he's going to talk about like the Jesus archetype then what that means you know but it's a union of opposites you know the same way he has like a union of opposites between conscious and unconscious that's Yin andan so those things that are unconscious has to be United with the things that are conscious the Divine and the and the human form have to be United he's trying to like talk that way through the whole book and like all these different angles and he's young so he never like makes it he makes it like explicit but you know he's young so he writes a little fuzzy but he's talking about that issue right and until that happens you know it's going to be a problem it's a powerful idea and you get there from This Book of Job yeah all right well anyways I guess we we'll continue on because you gotta figure out okay here's the Cliffhanger what happens with Jesus next and then where does the divine feminine fit in so there's our Cliffhangers for next week where does sopia fit in because those are the two big things that come up next yeah yeah what happens when the unconscious isn't seen how ugly does it get so to be continued I guess right all right cool awesome well Eric good good stuff as always man it's a twister I guess we all be thinking about it for the week going huh yeah yeah exactly yeah I never heard that talked about before no no that's a good one that's definitely a good one thank you my friend and and thank you to our audience you know we appreciate all the love and all the feedback and all the stuff blah blah blah blah blah blah blah you know like subscribe share hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com we're on Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast we're on Facebook Eric is at Eric Baker I'm at Daniel DNE uh you know leave a comment we'll we'll talk and we'll like or you can uh you know leave us some a message via the email via Instagram via whatevers um you know we do it because we love it and we appreciate the love and return so if you find our work useful uh please consider sharing with uh friends enemies or neutral ones that's very very Buddhist that's pretty much all got all you got anyways uh thanks so much for listening for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you on the next one peace