[Music] hey Phil and tear those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist so we're back um uh to our series before we took a time out of what we were working on last week to uh really talk about events in the world so we wanted to do a special episode you know on that we both thought that was really important especially Daniel thought that was really important so we did that so for those people who are kind of following along that was a little bit of something different just triggered by the world you know kind of stepping in as it does and you know it just felt important to have that conversation but we're kind of going back to something that we were already kind of doing which if you've been following along has been this little series about love and relationships and different ways of thinking about it it was sort of like a big project for us and like really close to my heart so as I say every week thanks so much Daniel for going through this with me because it's really kind of a big one for me sure and um you know thanks y all for people who've been listening and uh going through this together so we got kind of towards the end of this series and what really struck me at the end of this is we were trying to look at like in a way like taking a step back kind of a big picture of you and saying what does it mean to kind of design a different kind of life for yourself which is one of our big themes in the episode anyways or not in the episode in the whole series this whole podcasty world that we're in of g&t twisting spirituality where we're trying to go through and really like think about this right and I think for me as I've you know like I'm always kind of like processing the stuff that we're talking through you know week by week and so I was just thinking yeah it is kind of like for me this idea of Designing sort of a maybe a more Buddhist tantric Dost Zen kind of mashup lifestyle that would reflect more sort of my values and attitudes and my meaning in the world right and uh I think I was in my purpose in doing this has been sort of like use Yung as sort of another a in board for this in a way right because he seems to have asked similar questions maybe come up with some kind of similar conclusions it occurred to me when we're doing this that maybe I could even write a book on this Daniel so I'm considering that there's some tough things maybe about getting to the details of how that would fit but you know the idea is something like looking at how like on a personal level maybe I would feel as the example in this doing that and then Yung is kind of the famous example of someone trying to do this that we can all kind of look at and see how he did it for himself too try to learn right and um and so that's kind of the concept of it right and it had a lot to do with how he thought about love and relationships but you know we'll get into it but I think you know the big thing for me also was that it's kind of an idea of we could be honest not everybody's going to want to live Jung's life or my life people have their own Visions for their life that matter for themselves the things that they believe in um but I think just looking at how people kind of go their own way and try to get something that really reflects who they are is always like a good experience a good learning experience so that's part of what we've been trying to share too you know we'll all have our own values our own things that speak have meaning importance resonance for us but just watching how everybody does it a little bit different could be something that we can all learn from with each other right yeah that seem true to you I think so yeah um okay so so far in the lifestyle that we were kind of talking about lifestyle in the kind of way of thinking about life that we were talking about uh certainly I think the idea was the the ideas were that we're going to talk about Enlightenment as a thing Enlightenment is kind of the goal experience of this um and then you know because we're talking about this as not monks and nuns but as lay people right that everything in your life can work towards that whether it's uh you know your work your love your relationships sexuality your uh roles as family parents and so on can all be part of this experience right and I think Yung kind of worked with this too you know this idea of trying to build something for himself that would be sort of an enlightening lifestyle um I all I can say again you know and I say this kind of a lot here is I think at least as far as my own little life this has been like the most important thing I think I've done to kind of set my own values try to say these are the things I think are important this is what I believe in and just try to continually work towards that it's made all the difference for me and I think led to whatever happinesses I've had in life have really flowed out of that and again I feel that's the same probably for someone like Yung right so we can kind of watch how he did it so there's Enlightenment everything sort of working towards that also it means that you might have to break with Society end points because Society will want you to do things that might not always drive with your own uh values your own what you're trying to do your own beliefs about things that certainly was true for Yung it's obviously that he got at points where it was even scary for him because he realized he was going to be breaking with elements of what you might call like judeo-christian Society the kind of place he came from came from a very religious family and he he felt like he had to break in ways right that weren't small takes a little boldness with that which got to the point of like talking about things like love in relationship and um here I do feel kind of an empathy with what Yung was trying to do because I think he decided that relationship and love were a kind of alchemy and the point was that you would meet people who were important and special and then you would develop these bonds with them that were very deep and they would be kind of mutually transformative and so you I think this was his vision he came to in the end maybe not even on purpose we'll talk about like maybe how he came to this a littleit as we go through but that he came to this kind of way of thinking and this led him to a kind of like maybe polyamory you might say now right kind of an early stage polyamory looking at love and relationship in a different way certainly than the people around him probably in major ways you know which led him to have these very long-term intense relationships with multiple people his wife and then especially another woman that he was with for really decades named Tony wolf um all right so that gets us to like a little bit more on what these what these relationships are like this is kind of like the new stuff for us and what he kind of talks about with this and I'll be curious about what you say about this too Daniel is the kind of obviously is the kind of the mystical synchronistic sigh qualities about this that when you meet people who are really important these things will tend to like leap to the Forefront and Yung seems to know this he says you know think he re recognizes that you know when you have a very deep connection with another person probably synchronistic things will start to happen and there'll be a whole sense of like something in transcendently important happened happening uh happened and happening so it's synchronicity you know which is Jung's idea that things in the external environment will start to match things that are happening internally this is his idea of meaningful coincidence right and he does say that this has a lot to do with when powerful emotions are involved and I think if you could boil it down to the end probably things like love you know so when this happens the synchronistic phenomenon will happen and I you know if you've had this experience in your life it's kind of incredible to go through this you know you can meet someone and all of a sudden all of these stunning synchronistic coincidences start to happen right and you're like oh like this that's in a certain sense I think what Yung is trying to say is that's the universe of saying something really important happening between you and this person let me throw it out to you because I did my little intro so what do you think about that stuff Daniel let me throw it back to you yeah I mean I think just touching on the synchronistic part I feel like people's relationships you know depending on however you look at it whether it be from an exclusivistic perspective or a unique perspective which we've gone into uh defition of those previously but you know one being a more One toone exclusive type thing as in like you're the only one for me this is the only way I can experience love and the other one being I can experience love in many relationships you know simultaneously they're they're unique they're not exclusive um but either way the experience is about connection it's about connectivity and we can say that you know maybe we're trying to have a more complete experience you know we're trying to have other people who make us feel more full in certain ways or not even that we feel empty but they add to our experience they add to our feelings they add to our minds our hearts Our Lives I of like the spiritual alchemy that you have in like a suic thing Sufism or like a like a tantric thing Bo just tantric or tantric otherwise that something happens special between these two people right yeah and it's it's beyond what it is that you would have been able to I think perceive for yourself you wouldn't have been able to conceive how somebody would affect you you or how this touch might cause a positive emotion or negative you know what I'm saying like it's beyond what you would be aware of and that person continues to do that those are the good relation my you know quote unquote good you know the good relationships that they're tantalizing not just physically but they're tantalizing for you mentally and spiritually and otherwise providing you with you know support and whatnot and ultimately what I think it's doing and at least one one level is giving you that sense of connection with the Divine that like your energies and and spiritual spiritual journey if you will are giving you a sense of connection because your energies together are higher or they're greater we won't call it higher we'll say greater and that gives you a sense of feeling like you are also connected with something more than just yourself because it is with more than just yourself it's with your partner but then together there it gives it even more meaning as if like you are connecting with the divine right it's kind of like yeah sorry go ahead and then and then in this way your ability I think to to feel different states you know because you're you are becoming more sensitive because you're more sensitive to your partner whether it be sexually or emotionally or all you know physically all of it right you become more sensitive to things like this to the universe speaking to you so synchronicities I think are always occurring but when we're with part you know good partner or new partner or you know the energies are higher because of partner we are far more in tune with seeing and experiencing the things that are already happening and it's because of their influence on us our influence on them and then all ultimately our influence together it's weird for me because when I this is like kind of like one of the I don't know one of the Crux like points of this whole thing which would be I think secret is happening all the time true but I also think something does happen experientially where the universe kind of bends a little bit to say hey this is an important thing and I think that was like a big thing for Jung he kind of started to think you know normally when people think about things they think about themselves in the universe in a more separate way sure but maybe that's not really what it is at all maybe was really happening is the way that we're entwined in our activities with the universe is much more iMed right and sometimes when something special is happening between two people there'll be the like kind of a bending of the universe and the external World won't just be this kind of neutral biological materials place or something if you were just looking at from like a scientific Viewpoint or something right it's going to like it's going to bend you know to kind of show hey this is an important thing that's happening because you know we're more entwined it's a powerful idea and I I think that's a big thing of how he got to this synchronicity he started to think wow I'm having these really intense experiences with people very important things are happening meaningful things are happening in the universe it's like feeding back in a way that we don't normally think about it behaving you know there's a more of a feedback loop happening where my internal world my emotions my experiences in this case in love and relationship with important people that are very deep is like part of this resonant pattern I guess we kind of kicked it around like there's a sort of a societal level of way of thinking about things and there's maybe more of a Transcendent thing so I don't know if you think of it exactly in that way I tend to think of it in that way you know and then you you do tap into maybe more that Transcendent space which I think echoing what you're saying then like brings you closer to the source brings you closer to the Divine because you're kind of stepping out of the you know the TC thing is like to be trapped in mundane appearances and mundane conceptions right the the everydayness of the world is kind of like an obstruction to be overcome right it's a bit of a set of blinders or something very Zen very doas very tantric right you know very suic the whole thing everybody you know so you step out of that and then you have these experiences that are more Transcendent or something could be kind of amazing really yeah yeah all right anyways I know that's how how I think about anything else you got on that no feel similar yeah yeah no I think at least in a sense like your relationship with your partner is a means for you to have a deeper relationship with yourself and a a deeper relationship with sensitivity to what it is that is already in existence partner or Partners sure yeah yeah um the people in your life who are important the people in your life are important friends lovers spouses kids relationships yeah I think we you know we have talked about like romantic relationships that has been at the Crux of of the last you know this series of episodes that we've been doing for the last couple months really but I think that's a good point actually it's it's relationships period yeah yeah you know and we talked about that as we started out with my kids and stuff we talked about like our friendship is a deep thing we talked that too we got very sentimental about it was one of our most tearring moments when we got to like yeah talk about how much you changed my life Daniel because you really have but it's um it's a good reminder for people that like it's a relationships but maybe a larger s larger word is community you know in that can be I guess right yeah because it's can be if it's if as soon as you leave from this part you know soon as you break the idea from just a one-on-one romantic partnership it's your friend it's good friends it's family it's you know co-work you know people who who influence you it's opened up a little bit more and it it shows the importance of having people around you you know who can who can influence you and obviously we can't control the whole world so you're going to have mixed interactions with people all the time but it is to say that like relationships are extremely important and I mean my public service announcement is that if you have good relationships with people or not going to say good let's just say important relationships with people in your life it's going to take effort to continue to have them you know and that whether or not you know somebody's a pain in the ass or easy to work with if you find that they bring you something worthwhile in life then you're gonna have to work you know that's just how that's just how it goes that's how is true I I don't know that was it's a being community that everybody has to sit down at the one big family picnic together or something but like you know you can have connections with people very deep yeah all right the other thing he gets to and we had Dean Raiden on to talk about this just to plug a previous episode yeah of course plug all of them the S part of this right the psychic phenomenon part of this which J was very fascinated with too which I think again grew out of his intensity of his experiences you know he was like a like working with Freud and Freud's a very darwinian biological materialist person if you look at why they broke up with each other you know there were internal politics and whatever else were the clashes but a lot of it had to do with like a different way of looking at the world and it seems like young was probably thought these things anyways but as his life went on and especially with the people that he found were important he started to realize like uh you know I'm having like psychic Phenomenon with people my mind is in some way entwined with this other person's mind and we're feeling things about each other we're knowing things about each other like he was a real strong believer in that yeah which you know um uh is an intense experience so we talked a little bit about his relationship with like Sabrina SP rine I think the first experience he went through like this and their you know some of the complexities of their things together but um I mean he's very obvious and she talks about it too there's letters between the two of them where they seem to know each other's thoughts right their thoughts will seem to parallel each other or their ideas will seem to parallel each other not perfect they think different things they're still individuals right but there are ways in which their thoughts and ideas are happening and he talks about this as kind of like a blending of their we probably say in Chinese medicine like their shens in daas culture their shens but their Spirits their souls are having some kind of connection with one another that's you know um has that again that Transcendent paranormal quality to it you know he got really famous for doing paranormal stuff but I think it grew on part of like wow I'm having these psychic experiences with people he thought that anyways but I think it got more and more enforced to him and then yeah this became a really big deal for him right right so I think if you've had these experience it's like pretty powerful like you can know like oh wow this person is experiencing this emotion I can feel it now right sometimes can even feel like things in their body right I can feel that they're feeling something right your body almost seems to mirror it or sometimes you just read people's minds you know it's crazy but I can remember with like the first really intense relationship I had and this is the person who kind of got me had a big influence in me in terms of like we were together for seven years probably not destined to be forever together but you know we had a lot of B impact I want to know there and there are times when I would like it was crazy and I know you've had these things too where you just read like the person's mind you would just know no MH remember we were studying or something just as a brief anecdote and we were in you know we were in undergrad and uh all of a sudden I just said to her well don't worry your Aunt Linda will take care of that for the party or something you know some party they were having for a family member or whatever and she looked at me and she said I hadn't asked you that question yet and I went what and I was like I thought you did and she was no I didn't and I was like okay I just I knew you g to ask me that and we had nothing to do with what we were talking about I was working on some physical homework or psych homework whatever I was doing she was working on something else it was just one of those things when you've been sitting together with you know someone like that and your mind's just go oh you know then you just give the answer I don't know that [...] happens between people like this you know and young started talking about these things that he was having with people that there were these elements of like interconnectivity that went beyond kind of what you might think is the mundane sort of right materialistic ways of thinking about things yeah Y and so I know yeah with other with kids with friends you can have this too obviously right you kind of know what's going on with them um and so I think it get got into a view that fit into kind of a spiritual view too where he started thinking well my mind my Consciousness you like to use probably the word Consciousness conscious and unconscious yeah is more than what people think it is and in this way it's it's a little bit beyond how people any when your fa favorite things you're talking about lately space and time right space and time is different for it right Daniel's been fascinated by this lately you know and here his ziness right it it's it's not governed by the the kind of rules that the way we think it might be no like he got to think about this and so some I think even that Collective unconscious thing was partially an internal thing in the psyche of a person but also like I don't know connected to the external environment in like unexpected ways right that allows you to do these kinds of things trippy you got a good story of reading somebody's mind or some other thing like that I got there's so many of them but yeah oh man I I just one there was a a friend of mine who and i' known her for a long time oh no it uh yeah and we we were working out next to each other this is a couple years ago we're working I'm still friends with her now and she listens to the uh podcast all the time so good what's up my friend in Iowa um she knows who she is she was doing some exercises near me and and I for I don't know what she said I couldn't hear the words but she said something and I looked over her and I said oh what did you say say she's like I didn't say anything I was like yeah you did she's like no I didn't say anything I was like well what were you just doing she goes oh I was thinking oh well I heard you I heard you hear the person thinking yeah you know yeah yeah yeah like from afar too yeah we weren't even that close I me we're 15 feet away but like I mean but sometimes it's like you the person's like in like a different part of the Town not even the same place you know yeah yeah those are that's good it's like Mother's intuition you know that's I think part of the unfortunate uh um part about like growing up is that like you know we are placed with schedules upon us and places to go and things to do and you know like kids are getting older faster but adolescence seems to be moving closer to 30 than it yeah yeah yeah yeah you know but adolescence actually is moving down you know it's getting smaller and smaller you know people have devices and and things like this and there's not anything wrong with technology in particular but you know it you're training yourself to not get lost in in imaginative thought and daydreaming in just you let the device kind of take over that part of your space or something anytime that you would sort of sit and stare off into space and just let your mind wander you reach for your device and when you you know feed the the the young one that device you're training them to say any free attention that you have you should put it here and allow this thing to dictate where it is that your mind goes as opposed to you doing that for yourself and so it just makes it more difficult and I think it removes some of those like intrinsic intuitive qualities that we're more prone to having when we're younger I mean obviously some people a little bit more prone to having it than others there's Bloodlines there's you know if it's cultural whatever talents but I think just general individual karmic talents you're being shamanistic Bloodlines I'll be individual karmic talents there we go right but I think just you know we could say intend children have a little bit more of that kind of like auspiciousness to them they're they're they're more willing to engage with that part of their mind because they haven't been told that's not true or they haven't been conditioned yet but when we pull them into the world sooner sooner sooner sooner sooner those Tendencies tend to go away and it seems to be it's moving more towards black and white rational thinking tends to end up much at an earlier age and you you lose that you lose the Gap you know yeah I just sent somebody like the old John Lenin song called remember which is not one of his super famous ones but if you want to like you know just kind of look it up Spotify it or even YouTube it up or something and he does talk about that whole thing like remember when you were small when people seem so tall and you know your mind was just different right yeah yeah I just had that like today and it's interesting you know like you can have these experiences like it just happened recently with someone where I just happen to be able because you feel like you really feel the person you know yeah and so I was going to text and I was going to say wow you know I'm feeling something like around you this need to reach out to you like I can feel it like in my like in my abdomen like in my gut you know yeah this really strong need to reach out and I got the text you know I was I picked up the phone to like send the message like I don't know why I'm feeling this but I feel I just need to reach out to you you know I feel this like right in the pit of my my my my my gut right I just feel that you know that abdominal aspect of yourself right that part that thinks in its own way and uh and the message had come through and it said you know I'm feeling kind of down and it feels like my heart is like sinking into my abdomen they came like right and I was like I was just gonna text this thing with exactly this feeling you know this kind of little like sinking whatever this this thing was so I think this is what yung's point is I mean I believe in this too you know we I think both of us do you know this idea that yeah there's something happening between people that has that sigh quality that has that synchronistic quality and has you know shows this other dimension of how people like intermesh with one another yeah any other examples on that before I mov it along no we go ahead move on okay so um okay kind of something that you were talking about before obviously you know uh and some of this if you're saying but this is really a very deep level of human connection that we're talking about right and um one way of looking at this that I thought was a little you know DST Chinese B Be You could think about this in this thing they call the the three Treasures right so you can talk about the Jing The More Physical aspects of the body you can talk about the chi the energetic aspects of the body and then you can talk about the Shen the Consciousness the soul the spirit of the person and there's no doubt that for Yung even though you could think about this you know we'll do things on Tantra and sexuality I think it's important to do that now that we're talking about these things but I think in some ways he's really talking about Connections that are more of the Shen right the spirit of the two people kind of connecting together and I think you do see this in his especially if we look at like what happened between him and Sabina spine the example I'm using for now because it isn't really obvious what happened between them even physically she talks about like she uses the word poetry she's a Freudian person I think it was sex she would probably say sex there's debates about this you know but you know whatever happened between them it does seem like it's obvious transcended of anything that's just sexual certainly we're talking about something that deeper than sexual and we talked about this examples with roomy too in these episodes right would every roomy felt with Sham of T breze that's a spiritual connection you know whatever happened between them of course the tradition will say as we talked about before nothing physically happened between them as two men who knows but in any case certainly something profound happened between them sure and there's this terminology I thought was worthwhile throwing out here which is just uh uh uh saposexual demisexual some of these words right that are kind of used now um kind of capture this the whole demisexual thing meaning like the idea that you want to have an emal connection with someone it's not so much even just about the sexual connection it's about the emotional connection or the emotional connection is certainly a necessary thing before anyone will feel like a sexual connection so Jung certainly seems like he's talking from that space right and it's very weird I was going to say this in some of these episodes but he gets judged in these strange ways that are very odd because it does seem like on the one hand he's like feeling I'll do both of these sorry I should do it in different order that the demisexual feeling and then this saposexual thing is kind of more like the intellectual connection between two people the connection between their minds and there's no doubt with it seems the the people who were important to his life romantic Partners probably other people too but certainly just talking about romantic Partners they were in deep intellectual connections you know and that's what Drew him together so even though there may have been with sub SP Rin hard to say Tony wolf is obviously a sexual relationship but um you know it's the whole root of it really seems to be this emotional interconnection and this mental intellectual interconnection right as much as anything and that's what he was searching for more so than just like um just more so than just things from the Jing things that have to do with sex not that there's anything wrong with that but you know that's a kind of a special thing we're gonna have people on from the PO world and again it's an interesting like sub Community people have different values in there um I have you good friends within that world one good friend in particular who's you know G to come on and talk and um and you know I don't know I think it's a lot of people exploring their sexualities right A lot of times they had interest in things like BDSM or you know uh King things and so on you know whatever those things are for that those uh that particular person and they find other partners and they explore themselves in that way is there anything wrong with that nope that's awesome right but on the other hand I think you know there's this other component of this you know and like different people will be driven probably by different aspects of this you know so some people may be more by exploring their sexuality and maybe some people more by these factors right right not that they can't be entwined but some people like are probably looking for something different and I think it took me a while to kind of come to these terms with this because I think that I think that that's sort of how I felt deep down you know more so than anything having to do with sexuality I was interested in like the mental emotional connection that was the driver and probably the driver on a personal level of whe where I'll feel eroticism in my life or something right and that's something to figure out too maybe it's something if you're listening to think about when I when I got one of my Retreats and I had mentioned this in one of the previous episodes earlier I had done this long uh Buddhist hric Mantra Retreat and I came out feeling uh particularly frisky and I talked with one of our teachers you know one of my beloved teachers Daniel's beloved teachers llenn Mullen who's like a real friend and Confidant and I kind of shared this with him and he was like okay you know it might be that you'll have people who will ENT into your life you know um and I was feeling it more in kind of like a like a that Jing level but in the end I think I realized that that wasn't really what was what I was thinking for seeking what my Shen really wanted was something maybe more roomy like it wanted to have this experience of intellectual connection emotional connection that's why I wanted as much or more so than anything that was sort of sexual Different Strokes for different folks no judgment in anybody and especially with the people I know who are BDSM people and stuff like that they're exploring their sexuality okay cool you know but for me it was like you know I I realized this was a more Deep thing for me this part the other part I was going to say was that Yung gets judged in these odd ways because he certainly gets treated as my daughter might say as like the [...] boy of the universe in these in these EP in these books but like when I read the real biographer the one who was really serious um you know um she went through and she really looked at his life big biography on Yung and I'm forgetting her last name so I can't say it now but maybe we can like include it later on or people have questions about it I'll I'll clue people in should probably do just do a little book revieww of it at some point but in any case Sirius biographer looking at him it isn't obvious that he had sex before marriage with anybody probably didn't you know so you wonder where this stuff comes from and it isn't obvious that he developed his first relationship you know beyond his uh his uh wife seems to have been like seven years or eight years into the relationship so I don't think he was with anybody else until the age of 35 but some of these books they kind of talk like about like he was in Paris and he was going to these brothel and she was looking back at this there's like no evidence of that at all you know there's nothing and uh and the other weirdest part and I talked with a couple of you know other uh women in our field about this just to get their reaction to it it does seem like he was sexually abused as a teenager oh and he seems to have been abused by a priest who was a friend of his father something like that but in the couple of the biographies I've looked at and like not just one a number of them they say well by the time you was this age he was probably almost six feet tall so it's not obvious whether this was abuse or not and you're like what the [...] is that you know why would you what what is that supposed to be like if he wanted to he would have been able to fend off the abuser no I don't think it they mean that I think they mean crazy I think they're making homosexual accusations well they are but it's also like it's a bizarre thing to do like I don't remember in any of the the uh uh priest of abuse scandals in the United States that we were looking at like the bicep size of the victims to see whether or not they could have been fending it's victim shaming number unbelievable and it's it's the use of a Trope you know to quote unquote you know belittle somebody right to kind of like tarnish their their image but like even if he was in you know in that of that we'll say persuasion yeah I mean but he doesn't talk about it consensual he talks about it as abuse then I mean he doesn't say it's consensual right they're saying it's consensual yeah because he should have been big enough to fend the person off you know and just giving a shout out to one of our previous episodes we had very brave episode with Johnny Osborne yeah and I happened to like you know I caught her on the phone we were talking and um friend of the show and personal friend and I just mentioned this thing with Jung and she was like I rate really yeah you know because that's what people say about you know well that woman was 5 foot n you know how come she was a victim of this crime shouldn't she couldn't she have stopped it you know like this crap it's unbelievable I just bring it up danting because it makes you wonder like what did you know like obviously there's when we talk about the conflict with the culture right obviously he's doing things that are pissing people off somehow yeah oh yeah in general and he's just saying things that are pissing people off his spirituality maybe his psychology maybe his way of thinking about love relationship whatever it is he's pissing people off and they're going after him weird ways really bizarre you know it's like three or four of the books talk that way that I've been trying to do research I'm like that's just crazy you know anyways so I mean I I asked Ryan Davenport Anthropologist on retainer for GNT and he was like oh yeah you know when you have conflicts with society when someone starts proposing things about sigh about psychology yeah but all these things that the society doesn't like you potentially it's going to go after you yeah if you become famous enough right so it's I know just being honest about that part too but this part to me was sort of more like a I think it's it definitely seemed to him it was like intellectual connection and emotional connection I don't know like that was kind of meaningful for me and looking at his life because I definitely found that that was probably the truth for me too in terms of what I I really wanted as much as anything you [Music] know and then I guess we'll do our sexuality episodes coming up more with the tantric stuff but sure we've talked about this a little bit where in some ways with tantric sexuality you can generate a lot of internal Bliss just through your meditative practice your your relationship to sexuality changes you know and it's not so much like it's about just the sexual things themselves and on just a physical level you you start looking for deeper things probably because you don't feel as much of just that kind of drive to feel like you need to have somebody to help you satisfy just a physical thing does that make sense what I'm trying to say yeah yeah it changes all right so and you got anything else about like uh any of that kind of stuff I mean you agree with all of that too I suppose anything you want to say about that before I move along no you go ahead you feel good okay um I guess the other part of this that Yung had certainly in his life is it's really hard to predict where how when this is exactly going to happen it just seems to sort of appear in your life that you meet people who are like karmically spiritually emotionally intellectually important right and you don't know how that person's going to show up or when exact the roles are going to be yeah when you know and you could really sort of see this I think in yung's life too as he kind of like wrestled with this now sometimes this will be you know not in romantic Partnerships and things like that but he was wrestling with that part too for sure um though he seems to have like powerful connections that would flip through his life certainly Freud was too you know was a mentor but you know he had these really powerful experiences of uh you know this with romantic Partners too and I think the big one here is Tony wolf right who um again we could kind of debate aspects of how he handled things she was a former patient he had broken the patient the the the relationship was over the therapeutic relationship was over like he hadn't seen her for a year and a half or two years or something like that and he just started having dreams about her and it does seem like he had like you know questions about you know ethics and what he should do with this you know I thought about this a lot in terms of thinking about his story and I sort of like I suppose you could look it through a harsh eye or like an empathetic eye I don't know we can all think about that for ourselves ey For The Straight Guy um uh anyways he had these dreams about her and he sort of felt this calling with her and he really agonized about what to do about it you know he had gone through a similar experience with Sabina Spiel Ry as kind of like patient then a colleague you know both of them being professional people but he really agonized what to do you know it wasn't obvious and he talks about eventually you know having this almost near drowning incident it reminded me of like Cat Stevens and I forget what his his Muslim name became Daniel do you remember it off the top of your head no okay anyways great folk singer Peace Train appropriate song for the times you don't know the song Peace Train no [...] okay well you might want to like give it a give it a tumble it's folky I don't if you're like folky things you like folky now you're just like no just like no Daniel's just like just like a shake of the head a grimas a pain pained expression anyway there's a song called peace he saying wild world baby baby I know you're GNA sing it don't sing it it's notna it's not going to help you no that's one of the things you do you go you never heard it oh okay hold on let me sing it for you that's what people do you know you heard the youever heard that that's like [...] dizzy glesby or something that I know DIY gasia I know you know Night in Tunisia should we sing a few we'll let it go let it roll let's Let It Roll anyways he had this near drowning incident and he was like go if I get he's like swept being swept out into the water and he was like okay okay here's my thing if I can make it back to the shore I'm gonna I resolve I'm going to reach out to her that's my resolution with this and so ala he made it back to the shore and he did reach out to her but you know he kind of like had to figure out what to do it wasn't obvious for him right and um any was the Cat Stevens thing you haven't heard of him you know he went through a similar thing Daniel where he was like drowning in the ocean he was a successful like you know pretty big- time singer right I know who would be a parallel to him but like a BigTime folk singer you know and I think pretty good songwriter but in any case you know he had this thing and then eventually he said well if I make it back to the shore I'm gonna I'm gonna like reframe my life and my religion and my spirituality and could referred to to the Islam yeah so anyways you know uh uh this is Young's experience though right of almost like drowning like fighting his way back to the shore and realizing okay yeah I promised the Universe I would reach out to her if I made it back that was my resolution that's what drove me back and so I'm gonna do it and so he did you know and they end up being together like 40 years or something after that so um so I you know I think it's kind of like a a deep thing for me just to think okay you know I don't know you don't know when these things are going to happen right all I could say for myself is I think it was important that the design my life to allow space for things to happen sure that was a very important thing and I've had this conversation really like for decades with people that I've known various way it's like okay one of the things I'm always gon to make sure is I'm Gonna Leave space if something important happens I'm going to recognize it and leave the space for it to happen whatever that may be you know I mean I'm not going to make my life so constrained that I don't leave space for what's possible and that doesn't have to just love that could be whatever it is I'm gonna leave that space open make possible have a patient who's you know going through a real rough patch for sure and uh we're just plugging away you know I don't try and overstep my explanations of what he is or isn't experiencing you know and um he said the other day he goes well I still leave open the possibility for miracle yeah and um or instantaneous healing if you will and it was just kind of a profound statement you know from somebody who generally is very kind of flat a little bit downtrodden kind of you know trying to hold on to hope but not so joyous in their presentation but that uh he came up with that that kind of came out of the blue and I was like okay so this is somebody who is actively keeping even if the darkness is is in or overwhelming or whatever there's still a dry spot in there that they're saying no I'm sticking the hope flag right here and I'm allowing for the possibility that something out of the ordinary miraculous if you want to call it is possible I'm not saying it's going to happen but I'm holding space that it's possible and so I'm going to I'm going to to be open to that in addition to whatever other methods might come but I think it's an important it's an important place to be in right to leave yourself not so closed off at every turn that like you have the answer for everything right I think that's the kind of like the rationalistic side of our mind to go no not that because of that and no not that because of that and that only happened because of that you just sort of like reason away all the things but if you don't put reason on something it leaves open possibility as opposed to closing it you know yeah I'm also like a you know the way I always feel about this obviously I'm like a a tantric Buddhist doist and guy and I think like a lot of this has to do with like there are a lot of narrow rules about how you're supposed to live your life within a social framework yeah and they can be really strict you know and uh you know and then if it's too strict if it's too narrow if it's too whatever then there's no space for new things to appear you know and there has to be space for new things to appear obviously we're talking about like what Yung was experiencing that's extreme thing of like okay fall in love with some other person and you know that's deep but you know I think you're also kind of bringing up the bigger picture which I agree with really there has to be space to allow things to happen right and if life gets too rigid yes I tend to think of this like you're rationalistic I buy it you know I also think like has a lot to do with like rules sure sure you know like the Chang's a Dost thing about the rules you know the rules will like come to dominate you if you let them right yes and you have to be open to like say okay you know this is a turn didn't expect my life to go this way but now I'm going to have it go this way I was just talking about somebody about the artist Kandinsky oh yeah his book about like spirituality in art I actually that's probably the only Art Exhibit I've ever seen no [...] okay did you like it I when I was in New York some years ago we went to the whatever one the famous Gayla whatever whatever the or the famous arim or the met or something like that probably right the met and they had a Kandinsky when we went there that was the what' you think bro I don't remember made that much of an impression I mean you know you're talking I was still I think I was an undergrad at this point so it's like probably 2006 2007 so it was quite some time ago which in my world doesn't feel like that long ago but then for people who are listening to this that probably is like a milon years you know back there was dinosaur I wrote a dinosaur all the way to New York on the before like that was before Instagram like how did they even live right yeah oh yeah yeah before social media yes I think like the kitki thing is interesting because someone was telling me I didn't realize it was the backstory but you know he was like a lawyer or something and then he just saw an exhibition of impressionistic art impressionism French Impressionists and he was like [...] it this is much better way to live this spoke to him so deeply he was like n this lawyer stuff I'm jetting in this stuff and I'm gonna become a painter and he did you totally off off subject but like still in this I just thought can Kandinsky was a great name for like an undercover cop in an 80s movie you know oh that could be true yeah so I the whole time we were walking through it I was just making up like get out of here Kandinsky Kandinsky you you have to follow the rules you're a loose can Kinski where's the evid ksk yeah anyways I know it in my gut sir Kinski you can't just go half [...] that's right you gotta go full on your wild goose chases that's right so that was just the perfect name for that so so why I don't remember the artwork is because I was creating my own story in my mind your own pilot for like a new TV series yes yes yes yes exactly uhhuh yeah Kandinsky Chicago cop yeah yeah because it sounds like it could be from Chicago let's be honest he's a southsider he's an Irish guy you know like be Bish right kand Polish Polish Irish yeah yeah R from it's a lot of Polish Irish people so that's that's perfectly reasonable I'm a Polish Irish person who the [...] am I kidding Irish it just occurred to me now wait a minute hold on hold on me that's I'm a Polish Irish guy must be someone like that oh wait a minute me yeah um all right so anyway so I think there's this whole idea you know and like for young it obviously felt like he had to break the rules yeah I think that felt very stressful for him to have to do this you know it had to do probably his background his family I think he probably felt risk involved with this but obviously he made the Comm to do this and I think and the example of like Tony wolf you know he's drowning making his way to the shore he just decided okay this person's really important and I'm have to figure out how to get her into my life yeah um so uh yeah so I think this is like you know obviously like a you know like really deep thing as we get to the end of all of this I mean I don't know like to me this is some of the deepest stuff that we'll talk about right you know it's Enlightenment you can have these spiritual connections or deep spiritual connections with one another some of them may be platonic some of them may be nonplatonic but they're things that are going to be part of the alchemical fuel of our Enlightenment right uh you know and this is I think I don't know all I can say for me is that this is the the kind of things that and the people that I'm drawn to spiritually is there's like this element they address maybe in different ways but everyone like addresses this they don't Dodge this question you know so I don't think Jung Dodges it I think he like looks at it straight on right in a kind of a way that I find fascinating and you know certainly speaks to me in ways right even though maybe we all don't do everything perfect but you know there's I get parts of what he's doing right roomie speaks to me the zmaster EQ speaks to me the buddh tantrics speak to me I think I they just kind of get this idea you know that there's um this specialness of connection that sometimes will appear in surprising and unexpected ways and this is part of our fuel to Enlightenment I guess with the time we got left I thought the last thing to do is which is kind of the closer of this whole deal I thought and you were we were talking about this along the way this idea of like historical and cultural analogues as being kind of important here you know what what happens when you see things in a cultural perspective historical perspective and this mattered to Young in kind of an interesting way where he thought well I'm thinking about things in ways that aren't vibing with the culture I'm from but are there other cultural things where you know this is like this wouldn't be so controversial or this is within the possibility of human beings or within the possibility of life so he sort of looked at it's kind of interesting I didn't really think about this aspect of his thought process before but part of what he was doing was he was going around and he was saying okay let me go cross-culturally look around the world and I'll see whether or not there are empirical analoges for my way of thinking that maybe I'll find in you know belief systems that aren't the ones I inherited from my family and my culture maybe I'll find things coming from other places right and uh it's a very kind of interesting twist for me I I hadn't thought about his work totally that way but that's what he was partially doing he was saying I'm having experiences my mind is changing I'm being you know yeah I'm being affected in these ways as there are other people in the world who have these experiences you know who maybe think about this stuff differently I I never thought about that before what do you think about that whole idea Daniel in particular what what particular idea I don't know I mean like I do you ever think about that I guess I I guess I have thought about that I never thought about his work that way but this idea of like searching the world kind of going like okay I'm thinking in what seems like an unorthodox way for my culture but in this other culture this is like totally fine and he went around kind of looking for this purposely I never thought about his work that way this is a new way of me thinking about him in particular yeah think like like I never I never put it through my mind in that way yeah I think because you know we've talked about this via other cultures um and I've traveled quite a bit and maybe not got into like this level of spe specificity with how other cultures operate but I guess maybe because I've been exposed to so many different places around the world that and you know how cultures are so vastly different with so many things it doesn't surprise me that you know there might be vast differences you know for example like I was talking to somebody the other day and I was like you know there are countries now that if you get caught you know you know having an adultress type relationship like they'll kill you now homosexuality homos right you'll die kill you you'll die they'll kill you so I think because I'm aware that like that's an extreme on one end that there might be other ones that are on the other end where they're like okay yeah do whatever you like no big deal I think he looked at it was like kind of like an empirical validation to say all of these things were like in the collective unconscious sure I think that's with his idea you know what I mean yeah yeah that that makes sense what I'm saying I was like oh I never thought about it that way before we okay are all these things different things possible you know what's the range of what's possible in the collective unconscious and he said okay people are living in different ways that means these are possibilities within the archetypal field of the collective unconscious maybe that's the way I should have said that initially yeah that captures the Nuance of it maybe a little bit different yeah because you looked at it being empirically validating so anyways I thought I would mention just a couple of things you know um certainly like I think the Buddhist Tantra cultures are different you know right and they have like a you know sort of a different attitude about this we had talked about toet itself before right and toet itself I remember reading llama Glenn's book on the dolly llamas and certainly the six Dolly llam sort of like a a famous person for being sort of a I don't know very like a Don Juan figure amongst the doy llamas or something at lots of different partners but uh uh anyways so the chapter there on that and he was saying you know in tobet though there really wasn't really any expectation that women or men would be vagous it just wasn't like that you know I think the idea was that you'd have the family and the you know the family structure would probably say stable so kids would have a stable environment right but the the lives themselves could be non monogamous so it was a sort of a different flip totally and we talked about this a lot with like Esther Perell you know when our episodes are on her where American culture for sure went the totally opposite direction American culture said we'll break the family up and if people aren't going to be like with this one partner we're not going to like you know we're going to went the exact opposite and then divorce is the natural result of that so it almost looks like it's a different kind of cultural Computing going on right where that culture kind of put stuff through the the computer and just came up with a different solution right where American culture is not like that at all American culture is very much so like uh you know the minute it becomes something where the person doesn't want to be just with that one partner anymore then they have to divorce you know or they don't want to be with yeah it's just divorce and then the kids get kind of Tor apart so I'm not saying there's any right or wrong in that to be honest not judging anyone for going through divorces but it's not an easy set of questions for sure the Tibetan culture Ed it in a different way you know I think that's my only point on this yeah it's yeah yeah it's it's definitely very pervasive you know I think my mom like I mentioned in episodes previous you know kind of changed my mind on some of that stuff just as an adult you know she was talking about something and she was like you know because she was married to somebody who lived in Singapore oh she Liv in San Francisco and she's like you know someone's like well you know you guys are a part A Lot what would you do if you found out that like he had this or had that she's like I mean we would talk about it of course and if he wanted to pursue that as his primary relationship then that's what we would do but I mean I can't be everywhere all the time and if you know depending on what we wanted to do with our relationship we'd have to address it at that time but she's like that is not the death nail for any relationship she's like it's just it just isn't she's like people get over all kinds of things things alcohol drug abuse neglect gambling like she's like are are those things that much less bad than than this she's like are we what are we where where do we draw the line between what's our scale of like Badness what's tolerable and not tolerable yeah for me the answer is is abuse that's yeah that's the line but I think like the point Esther Perell is making and then like Dan Savage is another person we mentioned here and there is that like cultures make their decisions on these and they draw their lines correct you know it's interesting you mention your mom because my mom is like I've had conversations with her about this because it was like it seemed pretty clear you know that my father probably had other partners you know and my mom had said things like well if I like if I really had thought about it that way I would have done the same M's like 83 she's like I don't know what was I thinking so now she's looking back at her life we have great conversations now she's like I don't know what the hell I was thinking gotten it out with this guy all these years should enjoyed my life more but anyways that's my mom she's cute um uh okay I wanted to mention uh the moso culture what is it which is another uh it's moso muo okay uh I sent our Ryan Davenport Anthropologist on retainer to go out and like kind of get a little bit more about this for me but I've looked into them and I've kind of sometimes talked about them in classroom situations just to show relativity of ideas so when I talk about Buddhist philosophy I usually go and say hey cultures can be really really different and Buddhism points this out and what is like very like real for one culture what seems like absolute values absolute Norms absolute ethics absolute morality is nothing for another culture you know there's that much diversity right so in this culture what's really fascinating about it and I think I don't know if Yung knew about this but I'm sure he would have been fascinated by it so they have a deep shamanic part of their culture right their shamanistic culture up they're in the Himalayas they're probably more related they're they're a TC Buddhist culture so probably more related to Tibet but like within China right and it's not a small group of people you know it's like 70,000 people live in this community but it's probably like much more towards like the the the matriarchy end of the spectrum of things right and it's like radically different so certainly it's shamanic there's like ancestor things there's mother godess things there's Tibetan P Buddhist uh tantric aspects of things but the way the culture works is um the women kind of control all the money I think the men have a little bit more influence in the politics but the women control the money and they live more together and take care of the kids kind of together so it's the kids being taken care of more by the women right there's no uh marriages what happens instead is each woman lives independently each man lives independently if a woman choose the women makes the choice of who the partner is going to be so if she chooses that she wants a partner that person can come and be part of her life some of them will be longgo ongoing relationships they call it like walking marriage or something but they can you know she can be with multiple people if she wants the man can be with multiple people and because it's really strange because there's like or interesting because there's no concern about fraternity there's not a big deal about this because all the kids are going to be raised right way it's kind of like to take a takes a village to make a child thing push to the maximum right um so you know um they talk about these kind of nighttime visits where you know you can get together with a partner but really no one necessarily knows who your partner is it's not like doesn't have to be a big social thing right so there's none of public marriage aspect that was one of the things people relationships are very private and uh and kids get taken care of like in a communal way when we did those um kind of femininity episodes like two years ago or yeah Johnny was part of that osor yeah mentioned yeah that was in in the book I think the book was called if God was a woman which the book itself I mean probably needs a better editor and a different publisher whatever but you know some of the concepts in there were so different like including that one and the author talked about like pre-implementation of Judaism which as we know precedes Christianity that the theory is that it was a far more like you're talking about female dominated society and that it was a communal raising of the children and that people you know that there was a group of women who kind of you know were sort of in charge men were kind of laborers dealing with resources a little bit differently you know and that people had different partners for a year a season two years you know but it wasn't it wasn't exactly public knowledge wasn't necessarily even monogamous either no no no it's interesting like too because Christopher Ryan which I think we should do a whole thing on him right he's the guy who wrote sex at dawn and and I like his civilized to death is really interesting which one civilized to death okay I think would that' be and I sometimes have referen back to that book I think when we did some of our stuff on uh psychedelics and stuff he has whole chapters on considering okay why are psychedelics so taboo right you know but you know his point is something like before you have property before you have private property there's nothing to pass along right right and so people aren't concerned about paternity in the same way right because you don't have to like give things on to your to your Offspring right you have to pass it on to Sons or something you don't have that concept yet you know he has this great quote he says uh amongst these kinds of cultures the saying is one of the sayings is the B best place for my leftover food is in my neighbor's stomach right because I can't eat it it's gonna go bad I can't keep it so I'll share with you and then later on when you have some you'll share with me or something and you'll build bonds with people based on this sort of community thing but he has kind of like he makes the argument that this was like sort of before you get agriculture property and probably the social systems that grew out of that and probably the religious spirit systems that grew out of that right you know that you get this sort of much more different kind of vibe of how people think about these things it's kind of amazing to think about actually I know your inner Capricorn is probably a little bit like huh okay different societal structures right well there's even you know some uh more indigenous languages from South America that I'm aware of that when they describe things there is no uh firstperson possessive yeah yeah yeah they don't have it's not it's it's the land not my land they don't have the concept probably in the language right no they don't have I I don't know I don't if they have I or maybe they have me but like it's different they don't have this kind of you know um but but it just goes to show you that because of the lack of specificity of something that we take for granted that their mindset is totally different like I know one of my friends actually Remy who's been on this podcast oh yeah yeah Remy yeah yeah yeah three times he was saying in uh I think it's in ketua which is the language that they they sing uh in shapo or shapo native language there is not like they don't have a a word for bad oh amazing so they have to say like non good which is a different vibe right which is different means you're always tilting towards the positive yeah there could be a little bit more good right right but like bad has like bad obviously in like Judean Christian language has a connotation like it's pretty close to evil yeah that's veering towards evil yeah so they don't they don't have that you know but again the language is important because it shows you their the concepts in their mind and he said he goes he likes to think in in that native language because it changes the way he sees the world well I think it's like you know I went from you being raised Catholic to going into all these Zen things and all that like it's just a different VI there's no original sin right there's no force of evil trying to like [...] you over and pull your soul down into a pit you know like it's just you don't have that you could like screw some stuff up you know you might say well I didn't handle that you handle that in a non- good way right been a better way that's right but it's not like you know I as soon as we're doing it I have like Dr Kim tall Bears or someone else I thought might be good to do an episode on I think I'll try to invite her on but she's interesting in this too maybe as we get to the Capper of these things where she was a Dakota like raised amongst the Dakota Sue and then she became an academic she has a a website that used to be called critical polyamory but I think she changed it you know where she was blogging about her experiences and her thoughts but you know coming from more like the indigen indigenous peoples of the Americas right she ended up in Academia and she describes this really powerful personal thing where um she eventually had Married An American man you know and she's American too but you know to cendant I know how she thinks about herself I guess now she's in Canada so she probably thinks off as Dakota soup not as American to be honest you know but um you know she was married to this guy and he was she says he was a very nice guy you know very open-minded very accepting you know like uh it wasn't like there was a problem with him at all but she was like perpetually unhappy and uh she couldn't like even put her figure on it totally what it was so she eventually got divorced uh you know they had the daughter and I think they separated pretty well it wasn't like vitriolic or anything like that like a lot of divorces can be could be pretty [...] ugly this was even pretty good in terms of that and she was like what was it that made me unhappy and she said that like boiled down to like what she felt and maybe you would appreciate this from the shamanic point of view what she felt was actually her Roots because she felt on the one hand it had to do with the land that she was in that she wanted to be more in like a Dakota Sue kind of space and she says like how much she loves like the plains right of the dtas which are you know if you haven't been to those places you're not from America if you have for they're kind of rough a little bit right they're rough Landscapes and she didn't want to live in a Bay City by a little ocean with a bunch of like walruses flittering on the Embarcadero she wanted to be with the thunderstorms and the clouds you know like she loved that powerful landscape and she was like so happy to get back to that kind of space and it also had to just do with the fact that like this way of living this kind of like I mean from her point of view it would probably be what she calls settler sexuality this kind of judeo-christian thing that was kind of put on the people of the Americas right indigenous peoples were here she didn't feel comfortable in it didn't speak to her spirit and So eventually she got out of it and um and uh you know started Living in a way that I think she calls it polyam but the way I think she sees as more a reflection of what her ancestry would be going back to her to K suit peoples so so it's interesting you got a couple more minutes one more section maybe we do one more got five okay then we'll wrap this whole thing up and moving along so I think the one thing I wanted to close with for this it's almost like a couple last things would be like modern examples um I'm interested also in this idea of what they sometimes call relationship Anarchy which are probably words that Daniel really hates because he doesn't like the sound of the word Anarchy they don't really mean Anarchy they just mean like uh it's it's a it's a it's a philosophy that's worthwhile maybe doing something out in the future too a little bit more but it comes out of like sort of the gay communities the queer communities of like scand Scandinavia and was it was the idea of like sometimes for people who are you know in gay commun ities and Creer communities they have to kind of make their own families a lot of them have been kind of rejected by their families so they have to build their own family structure their own network structure their own sense of community so the Anarchy here isn't like we're not GNA like make connections everything's going to be like free-for-all it's more like we're going to rebuild things in a new way and one of the points they make is just allowing all kinds of relationships to exist that's the primary point right it doesn't have to be just like one person is like the sole person in your life right you can have like a kind of a a sense of like a range of people who are all important right and maybe for some people it's your best friend is the most important person to you and that's the person that you want to like have as your family and the person that you would want to raise a kid with and for another person it's um you know uh their siblings and for another person maybe it's their spouse but for another person maybe they're poly and it's more than a couple of people so they're saying like it really should be flexible to allow people to design a life that more sort of fits whatever the truth is for them right so I find that to be kind of a powerful idea to was like a modern version of this and probably you would be fascinated by this too I think you had had all of this interesting he kind of wrestling with these things right so that's a relation a thing with this and I don't know um yeah not forcing things into certain forms so I don't know this this GNA happen with Gen Z but I'll tell one less genen Z tale and then we can get out of here because it does seem like maybe genen Z is changing on this I have a friend whose daughter was going to do the heroic dose of psilocybin so you can maybe explain what that's about Daniel that was put forth by Terence McKenna and is five grams that is yeah Hero's dose where you go through and you're really taking a good dose to really be have it be transformative right an INT yeah I mean but that but the number is arbitrary I mean based on the potency of what it is that you're taking I've I've I've seen people have transformative doses with a half a gram so and you've talked about that with aaska too it doesn't have to be some huge dose right sometimes it's just as powerful with a small dose right yeah without a doubt you have if you're open you know um and sometimes you do need to be hit with a hammer there's no doubt yeah yeah and you do need to have your defenses lowered but um yeah anyways well the anecdote is that I this friend of mine had um someone who was coming in who was sort of did like kind of mental health work with cybin and the idea was they were going to do this together and I don't know the the known of this person but I know whoever the person was this is their area of expertise yeah yeah so went through the the dosing thing and apparently it wasn't that tramatic or like nothing really too amazing happened that's not the point of the story point of the story at the end is they were chatting and um this guy the psilocybin therapist was kind of like talking about his relationship with his uh now I guess to be ex-wife or something and he was saying well you know she wanted to do this polyamory thing and he was very derogatory towards it and very derogatory towards her even thinking about this and what was interesting is my friend's daughter heard this he left and then she turned to my friend this daughter and said that's so judgmental of that guy you know like I don't think I like that guy anymore I think I've totally changed my opinion of him because of his judgmentalness I thought well that's interesting you know so I wonder you know maybe just as a Capper to this like where this is going to go with people in the future because I you know things are evolving and I was like that's a very interesting like genz story my friend told me you know and she knows how I think about things too I mean she knows she we're doing these episodes and she was like huh you know uh when she told me I was like yeah there's like maybe there's Evolution and jenzie will take this in new ways that like other people wouldn't have anticipated you know I guess we'll see where it goes yeah fingers crossed yeah fingers crossed I mean in any case I think no matter what you think I think the main idea at the end would be like to be able to like design a life that suits your own Spirit right I think that's the goal of everything right whatever that is for you and not feel like it has to be compelled right I think that's the ultimate goal okay thanks so much Daniel for letting me do this series and you stay the exra couple of minutes here too so we can finish up so thanks a lot Daniel and thanks for everyone for listening on this this has really been a really like deep to my heart set of episodes yeah yeah I think that's the appropriate title for this relationship Anarchy yeah okay I'm into it yeah well Eric as always thank you so much my friend thank you much Daniel audience whether you're viewing or listening or doing both perhaps you probably would do both at some point uh thank you for tuning in thank you for listening thanks for rocking with us you know whether this is number one or number 300 whatever we're at right now um you know we definitely appreciate all the love feel free to hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com leave a link in the YouTube if you're watching it uh if you're listening it you know you could leave um a review on Apple podcast it definitely helps out the uh the podcast same thing if you're you know whatever however you're consuming it like subscribe all that stuff uh if you're on Instagram send you know hit us up send us a message we do uh we read the messages and we respond generally speaking you know uh we appreciate all the feedback I know since our last episode I got a bunch of feedback on the previous episode that we did uh and it really great um good feedback a lot of good conversation starters for for me and for these kind of folks and um you know we do it because we love do way to think about it a lot like a lot of conversation starters hopefully I haven't thought about that phrase with this but we're trying to do conversation starters that's true yeah yeah for sure and um yeah that's it that's it so you know we love it we appreciate it all the feedback that we get from everybody and uh you know we hope to continue to do so and yeah that's it so for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you on the next one bye-bye