[Music] hey B and tears those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist as you will already have heard from Daniel's introduction we have the pleasure of having on today Marvin Mendes to share his wisdom experiences and insights as a family law and diverse attorney thanks so much for coming on Marvin Eric thank you Dan thank you too for including me and letting be part of this fantastic project you guys have yeah of course no we're glad to have you as your last few episodes saids right this is the journey right and you guys are just putting it there for me so yes yes that's right well we've been doing these episodes called nine things that can [...] up your life based on the old classic DS teachings and uh it seemed like so fitting number three is you know making your personal life work right making interpersonal relationships work and you know obviously you deal with the parts when it doesn't work so um I was thinking about we talked a little bit off Mike and I was thinking with talking with Daniel about how to talk about this because I I think in the culture overall there's always an assumption that marriage is kind of like a good thing and I'm kind of thinking more I guess maybe it's the Buddhist part of me I tend to think of it a little bit like kind of a neutral thing can be good for some people it could be bad for some people it could be in the middle for a lot of people um and so uh you know I kind of take that attitude and you know uh I certainly have been in the situation where I've had people I know and love and care about where I've said I don't know if this is right for you yeah I'm not sure about this one and other people where youd say well yeah that's a good thing for that person you know con is in range but it made me wonder like what's a good first question and I thought well maybe the good first question is with all the experiences that you have what kind of advice do you give people even like before they tie the knot what kind of things do you think are good pieces of advice or bad pieces of advice or situations where you kind of go well maybe this isn't a good thing I don't know if you ever do that as an attorney I know do prenups but anyways i' thought your thoughts on that you know maybe before the process even starts you know usually when they come to me it's not really you know when people come to me it's not really a situation of looking for my advice as to whether marriage is the right fit for them uh by the time they get to me they're either trying to figure out a problem uh how to get out of a problem or how to find a solution to their problem um but you know I think more from my years of experience and my years marriage right I think you know those that are looking to get married I I you know now compared to what I used to do many years ago I tell them marriage is the wonderful thing right it's really just about do you want to get into it and then do you really want to be a part of something that's greater than yourself because at the end of the day you're you're involving yourself in a partnership in a selfless partnership that they're willing to give to each other or without any conditions attached to it um and I think one of the the biggest secrets that I always tell a lot of friends and and and clients as well you know the secret to marriage and avoiding a lot of these arguments is always knowing that whatever the other person is doing for you is never with ill intent right and I think that if you understand the foundation of that that the that there's never an ill intent that the person wants to do something you may not like it and you may not agree with how it's being presented or how it's being approached but that person when they're doing something I think they're doing something with genuine love care and a desire to make your life better which then ultimately makes her life better and not in a way that they're giving something because they're being selfish because of how good it makes them feel but because it really just wants to work things out as part of a unit as part of a whole so those are generally the biggest conversations that I have with those people that are just getting into a marriage that are looking to get married or in a secret to doing prenuptual agreements right that those that haven't received any advice from anybody else other than you need to protect your assets and that's what you need to do I look at it for more of like okay we removed the emotional component we figured out what was necessary for this now let's look at this from a logical standpoint and I think that you have that as your foundation that that person's actions are never without ill intent you can get through a lot of the stuff right even if there's nuances and Communications that the two of you disagree on how to approach it or or discuss it that's doing really interesting so from your experience of like you know doing your work with people when you boil it down I think what you're saying is um that if you can go in with that attitude of I'm building something that's separate from the two of us that we can kind of dedicate ourselves too that seems to be like is that the moral that you've taken home from a lot of your work of watching couples going through things that kind of attitude 100% right so when people come to me they're generally in a position of like okay all hell is broken loose right like we're we can't be compatible anymore but but I don't think that it's all of a sudden right it just happens all of a sudden I think it's just years and years over time or months and time over time that things seem to fall apart when you start thinking you know making things a lot more personal than they need to be and then every single yawn or stretch or burp or whatever it may be right ends up frustrating the heck out of you and and and and I think there's there's those people that just with the right foundation none of this stuff ever really becomes an issue right and the foundation a lot of that is in the communication and the openness and look at the end of the day we're all human beings right and we're super sensitive and super delegate to you know what one person may agree or disagree with how you view things um and it's natural and I think that if we can just be a bigger person and and and see beyond that and knowing that the other person's intentions are with good way well and and generosity yeah you're you're move on and that's how I how I see marriages working and that's why I think now marriage is a wonderful thing and you know like I was telling you earlier I I I never thought marriage was a wonderful thing in fact you know my wife our foundation was oh you don't want to get married I never want to get married this is amazing let's let's hook up right let's hang out let's let's have the best time ever and then marriage happened right and then it became the next step right oh you never want to have kids I never want to have kids and we had a kid oh you never want to move to the suburbs I never want to move to the suburbs and guess what we're in the suburbs um but it took time to really get through a lot of that stuff and and a lot of understanding through it and and and my our foundation generally was we just didn't have a desire me from a perspective of having seen you know parents going through a divorce or understanding that they went through it um her perhaps whatever uh lack of mentorship and marriage right uh she didn't have and and also for myself being a divorce attorney I just saw the end of it and I never understood how people ever got there until many years of experience how long were you working as a divorce attorney already when you got married was it like deep into your practice where you had already seen all of these sort of stories going wrong and it took that leap of faith maybe to go oh no this can go right yeah sure so I I I was in family law for let me see 26 maybe like five six years before that right and I've already seen a lot of the stuff and I seen just like some of the toxic stuff and not withstanding you know one of my mentors previously saying to me we're family law attorneys if we can save the marriage we can save them and we shall save it if we can't save it then we save the marital State because it belongs to them we work hard for it and I try to use that as my Foundation as much of it but it was never really that the basis of wanting them to get into a marriage you know for by that point for me was like this is broken I just don't understand it why do people even exhaust themselves in a relationship W continue to impress themselves uh in certain ways with the other person and have different points of views uh between each other but as time went by and and frankly you know a lot of The roer Coasters between my wife and I in our early years is what then later taught me the the beauty in marriage right and the partnership and and you know one of the things you said earlier you you were right right marriage is not for everyone if there's red flags there like just call it out right if there's so far apart from each other but I think there's also something about human nature that their willingness to quickly give up and not really try and figure out what they do have in common what is that common denominator and that's one of the things that my wife and I ultimately ended up looking at is what were the common denominators what were the roots of our respective issues that we had this Discord and once we started going through that whether it was therapy or in-depth conversations or moments of Silence uh do we start to understand that this was actually greater for uh for us and than us and we didn't look at marriage from a religious standpoint right or for you know uh you know any other way we really I think looked at it more from uh what did this life bring us here to learn right what are we learning from each other what did I miss in my past life that that I'm here to learn today right and and and we both found out a lot of things about each other and really discovering who we were at a core and Essence that we just became an open book to each other and then that started being the foundation of a fantastic partnership a fantastic partnership in my opinion that then taught us how to love ourselves before we can depend on being loved by someone else and then we just created this full circle of trust where it's like no matter where I am and no matter how angry we are we are mad at the moment but never at each other and that allowed us to really just be open with ourselves and that is how we created strong marriage and that's why I then started to believe marriage is an amazing thing all right once I I I knew I love myself once I knew then I she would wholly love me no matter what the argument was things just turned out amazing and and I think she needed that com for me as well right because she needed to know that no matter what she did I will love her no matter what and then from there we can then start building a future and laying the foundation for many things which then led us to a child and you know mix finances at some point right because the first few years you're like hold on I'm going to keep this bucket to myself and then later on you started figuring out how to just start merging things and knowing that you wanted to take care of the other person and be taken care of um there's a kind of a universal truth aspect to what you're saying too because no matter what no matter what the relationship is like we both have kids so that's your kids or a romantic partner a wife or a husband or you know family members you have to kind of build those things you're talking about they Universal truths of like yeah you know what what am I learning with this person together if we want to think karmically right I have some karmic connection with this person what are we learning together right yeah the marriage and we're doing that and we'll learn that way together or you know but other people in your life you're going to do that with too you know I think about it with my kids what are we learning together right it's the exact same philosophy you're outlining right I agree it's a beautiful one it is I I remember you remind me of a great conversation where I had with my daughter once where we were going through this and this at a much younger age for her through this complex conversation and she was very upset with her right or or whatever the the the issue was at the point and she was upset with herself and I turned around to her and I said to I'm like you know what I know you think upset and I know you think that I'm know what I'm doing I don't know what I'm doing you know this is my first time as a father right and I'm gonna be making so many mistakes along the road and just be patient with me and I'll be patient with you we're both going to learn a lot from each other and we're going to both learn what we're here to learn about how to to be better humans and how to be better citizens of our community how to be a better partner how to be a better listener right and whatever role we playing right there's no defined role as I'm your dad and you're my daughter right I I understand the the logic behind it but you know we we're all here to learn from each other right and so as long as we keep that an open mind that that that creates a solid relation and I I tend to use that for a lot of My Relations whether it's my my partnership at work whether it's my partnership at home whether it's my relation with our daughter whether it's our relation as as a three of us right you know daughter wife myself um just being open to the idea of like I don't know what I'm doing I don't know what I'm doing we don't know I've never been married before I've never been a father before I'm I may not I may just be a New Soul on this planet we're learning this together right and the idea is that we're going to trust each other that we have good intent right yes ABS Marvin you had you had mentioned something earlier I thought was interesting and you talked about like loving yourself you know do you let's open that up a little bit because you know people who are listening some of whom are partnered maybe some are married some are single some in between you know maybe thruple maybe more who knows depending on how lucky they are you know um yeah so I guess my my question to you based on your experience like do you and just to me just your own personal life too like do you think that that is a thing that is is uh why widely experienced in life you know because you deal with a lot of couples on both sides of the things and and do you think it's widely experienced and do you think that it's maybe not a prerequisite to be in in a successful marriage but do you think that it is uh a foundation because I don't I'll see what you say and then we'll we'll we'll go back and forth you know I I I don't see it in a lot of people I don't see it a lot of people and I can see it in the nature whether let's talk about it from you know divorce perspective right it it's always the the spouse that allows himself to be you know cheated on or walked all over or disregarded or the spouse that is the narcissist that wants things done uh and what I mean by all this is they're looking to fill a void right a void of lack of love for themselves and that's why I'm a big proponent and only after years of exper you know of experience in this right like you know being in my relationship early on I have no idea who I was what I was going through Who I Really you know I didn't understand myself I didn't really love myself and I think it's huge that to understand and see that commonality throughout a lot of relations that people don't really tend to love themselves they're always looking for someone else to love them and when you're looking for that that someone else to do something for you you then allow yourself to be controlled or walked over uh and uh feeble in the relation shall we say um and it's not that until sometimes until you go through a divorce do you finally start recognize your self-importance right start to know who you are at a later Age and and I think that also comes with time and perhaps getting married either having a strong Foundation as a youth as a child and being you know uncondition love so that you can be like I love myself and I'm fantastic and I'm great or going in life and being not married until maybe your 30s when you've gone through your education and established yourself financially and you can support yourself and provide for yourself knowing that you don't have to depend on anyone else that you then start to discover how to really love yourself and in divorce situations a lot of people are in it because it was the first thing that it seems me in marriage situation the first thing because the first person that paid attention to them the first person that cared to listen to them and they felt that that was their entire world and they will accept everything and anything including being cheated on or being physically abused and you know that was your definition of love right and like I like to say sometimes love love love whatever that is and that is to that certain people so I think but once you do have that you can have a stronger relation because then you're not so dependent on someone else and you're not willing to change yourself for someone else is at least what I've noticed and family law uh and from that perspective and from a personal perspective as well and it's been tremendous and and you know and that's what happens right in family law a lot of times Eric and Dan is in family law you have this light bulb that sometimes goes on in the spouse and says that's it I'm done right whatever that is that turns on the light bul decis be like I am done I moving on to the next chapter in the live and there's a strength that gets built into that and then the arguments start in family law because the person who is used to being the controlling partner in that relation isn't so used to the other person finally standing up for thems and the person that's finally standing up for themselves are the ones that are saying screw it I don't have to deal with this and the narcissist shall we say is then that has this Scorch Earth mentality that if I it doesn't happen my way it's never going to happen uh and it moves on just becomes this big Clash uh in in disolution of marriage cases that are unnecessary um but a lot of this could have been resolved if there would have been some respect for yourself and some love for yourself at an early stage in the relation and not wait before things got so heated you know it was a what did you say in your earlier session your authenticity right yeah being authentic to yourself that's an important thing and and you don't really get to that stage until later on in life until you discover yourself yeah it's interesting because Daniel and I are clinicians and we tend to like frame things in clinical ways what you're were talking about just fits something that crossed my path recently like someone I know who's going through a divorce and it's gotten nastier right as time is going on and obviously see those things all the time but looking at the dynamic of what you're describing it seems really true to describe them it looks like the one person always felt rightly or wrongly that they were being put into the more powerless position right there was some kind of power and balance between the two people that at least they felt whether the other person felt it or not I don't know you know sure I know better the one person who's being accused of being the twoo powerful person not the you I don't know the other party as much but relationship is now in divorce right and uh I mean that seems to be the underlying thing and it looks like from his point of view I know the woman in the couple basically he was like yeah this whole time I've been sort of the powerless person that's first time I'm standing up to you you know yeah almost exactly what you were describing you know this is his moment of rightly or wrongly I don't know you know I'm not in their worlds but it's the first time where he's standing up for himself in this way it's a beautiful thing it's a beautiful thing to start to know yourself to um understand that you're not just something to someone but you are part of something greater you know like you I I have sometimes for example women that come to me and and and they think that they're not worth anything or I have men that come to me and say well I'm not going to give her this or do that and and I always remind everyone particularly those that have families particularly you know uh The Narcissist person where they're trying to say this person shouldn't be entitled to anything and I did everything and it's only me me me I always say was like did the dry cleaning walk itself to the cleaners right did your kids just all of a sudden grow up and go to a fantastic University because you were while you were working 80 hours a week right did the food just magically appear did you attend a lot of social events by yourself no so everyone played a role in the relation right and sometimes the person who's more dominant in the relation doesn't recognize that and then once you start going through this process the person who is sort of the Wallflower shall we say just shines bright right just reflects bright and it's a beautiful thing to see that I think the thing is you got to find a sometimes because in family law what ends up happening is the person who was hiding in the shadows the whole time all of a sudden becomes this big energy of the explosion the other person disagrees and it's a scorcher of policy on both ends and the only ones that end up benefiting are the attorneys with the massive amount of fees that they end up getting paid on it um and it reminds me of this quote in a Netflix show that my wife when I were watching Enola homes where oh yeah yeah there was this one part where I think the brother said you're being emotional it's understandable but unnecessary right and I deal with a lot of that stuff in family law and and people are driven by emotions it's you know if the one if there's one thing that's predictable in family law is that emotions tend to drive the decisions and until they burn through their savings and retirements and whatever it is that they have do they start to become more rational in terms of like uh wanting to have a case settled and but but time also has been one of the factors right uh you know time is a construct and you know until they realize time has gone on things have healed for them uh do they start to settle down and start to be more realistic and how to move forward and and and emerge as a stronger independent person right one scales it back and recognizes that they've been too stubborn and too you know hard-headed and the other one brings it up a notch and says I got this I'm a strong person and we move forward from there you feel like a certain amount of time you're trying to spend kind of like cooling people's Jets and like taking it Taking the amps down turn the amps off to 11 and bring them a little bit ler yeah you know I I wear many hats in this Ro as a family LA attorney there's the the friend there's the therapist there's the attorney right there's the mediator um and you got to learn you got to know how to balance that out right you can't just ahaa every single moment and plate them but you do have to give them some room to like let it out right a good cry is always a good thing right I always encourage her like cry it out I'm a big fan of crying let those emotions out once you've relieved that out then you come back and start talking some reality and some sense to everyone you know in my line of area generally there's um people with parents and and and excuse me parents with children and and you understand this is I always refer them to Dr Seuss is in the waiting place right I don't know if you read that story to your kids off was about you know the people just waiting waiting for the train to go or the bus to come or the plane to go and so forth and so on and everyone's just in the waiting place and I always tell them while we're going through this process this is where you are emotionally right the very next page is that somehow you'll Escape that place all the waiting in the stain and you'll move on to a place where boom bands are playing right and I just have and and that's really more for an understanding for them is you will be in that place and you have to go through those emotions because now you're going on to the next stage in your life and you'll move on and things are going to be fantastic they always turn out fantastic that's kind Chinese that's kind of like the idea in the old Chinese books like the the the the Dao and you know the yin yang goes up and down and so okay now you're in a down place if you can get to this down place you're G to get to the up place that's the only place he can go right and also like encouraging let's stop looking at the past let's not get what we're going to cling to the past and what this person did or where the resentments are would be better off if you just go forward right 100% right I you can take the philosophy of you know scorched earth right approach like I've said earlier or you can take the philosophy of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind right I I rather avoid the former and make sure that they understand the latter so that we can just move forward effectively right and I think a lot of the new things that I'm seeing now because perhaps people are willing to work at out and there may be different reasons right maybe they're just like man if I leave here I'm financially screwed or if I leave here I'm too old and I don't want to start again or if I don't fix this I don't know what's going to happen and so what I'm seeing nowadays is people attempting to salvage their marriage by removing the financial components out of the way and similar to a prenuptial agreement we're doing a lot of postnuptial agreements I'm not feeling you right now is usually the conversation things are a little bit off I don't know what's going to happen i' rather dedicate 100% to us repairing a relation without having something over my head that I don't know where it's going to go so people come in and say look I want to post up that says if we divorce this is how assets are going to be divided this is what support's going to be paid this is how we're going to move forward and so if that stage comes up we just ask the court to affirm terms of this agreement and we move forward but right now doing that it gives me peace of mind that I don't have to worry over the threat that I may be left with any without anything or over with the threat that you may take something away from me that I believe I'm entitled to and it allows people then to then just focus their energy on building their relation and saving their marriage right because some people do believe marriage is right for them they just don't want all this ugliness attached to it and so that you know in connection with therapy the history thing is interesting because it was kind of like an economic thing probably at the root but the idea of it's evolved to now like no now we're talking about something different we're talking more about love and partnership and building this thing where it's almost like there has to be a transformation of something that probably was an economic concept historically to now we're like we people are almost like Reinventing it almost in like the Time of Our Lives almost right you know where like the economic things let's look at this differently let's not look at this just as an economic partnership let's change the framing right which is almost what you're saying yeah absolutely especially in in a world where you're right you know marriage historically has been you know from the little bit that I know in terms of its roots uh here take my daughters or son right and and you take care of them financially so you can support them and an exchange I'll take three goat whatever that was right once upon a time oh that's a good trade man you got robbed you got robbed I got nine for mine but you know you know three is good three is good you could have got her for a goat and a pig if you would have like whatever kittens yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and so you know people are seeing it a lot differently now right it's no longer rooted in you know staying te because of religious requirements or staying te because of finan responsibility in a world where both men and women men and men women and women you know regardless of the relation or Dynamics behind it where they can all support himself and provide for each other right they're willing to say let's work this out right there is something tangible here there is something um greater than us here right or as my wife likes to say you know a transcendental kind of love and I think once you know that right look we're always stuck between life is short and you only live once so like so how do you maximize it in either occasion right and find something that really gives some meaning if that's something that's important to you right if it's not important to you yes I've had those folks that have come back for prenuptial three times or four times because they just love the idea of starting something new right of the new journey of something you know that's at the beginning stage when they're just sharing them M El with someone else and learning someone else about something new you know that always that little spark that you get of a beginning of relation that sometimes that that's that's what they chase most of the times um and that's fine too and that's fine too right I think that's always a beautiful thing too if that's where you find your your happiness you we've done episodes on sort of that kind of Serial monogamy too I was using a friend of mine as the case study and he says that there's a timer on it and old friend that he says yeah it goes about seven seven to 10 years by your seven or eight n I'm starting to feel like you know okay I want to like have that experience again I can't blame the guy it's his way of you know you know his way of being in the world I guess right I guess you see people like that what you were describing they they go into I do and I've always been curious to know what drives that I I don't think I really put my finger right because you know from my perspective right a person who loves marriage and advocates for marriage from a you know from a higher understanding a relationship understanding right A partnership with true you know partnership uh that concept just sort of seems to be something foreign to me to because from what I see it it's like okay you're just you're resetting yourself over and over and over and you're going through the same thing over and over and over and at some point you're just a glutton for punishment right if you know you're going to end up in that seven year AG or 10 year AG because you know whatever physicalities exist they're the same from person to person right there's nothing really different unless you find a higher connection and I think that's sort of where the marriage component Falls in that partnership and the tax benefits right why not I definitely think that higher connection makes sense that's for sure Marvin let me ask you so in this process of relationship we're we're talking about the the people who are involved in the relationship the the adults in the room if you will right and you know I mean we we've looked at some of these studies before but about 50% 49 51 whatever of marriages end in divorce so that means that a large number of our audience members parents are divorced probably half right right uh if if they're an average sample size you know but what we have yet to mention is the children and and from the child of parents who were divorced and I don't know about your parents Marvel we never we've never discussed this um are your parents still together are they no they're Happily Divorced Happily Divorced okay so so from Children of parents who are divorced we always go oh yeah our parents got divorced when we were blank years old right you're you're dating somebody and you talk about their parents and they say okay when I was two when I was 10 whatever it is but that's kind of the end of the discussion the one person that gets that gets forgot about or the people who get forgot about are the lawyers who made that divorce happen but the lawyers never forget about the children that they're working with even if they never meet them they're working with the parents who had them and in some cases the idiots who are going to run these kids through a life of difficulty so I'm going to ask you a difficult question now um and maybe we'll record it and you can put it on your LinkedIn or something like that would you would you be interested in uh verbally Penning a letter to divorce children on behalf of the lawyers who do the Dirty Work in separating uh what once was done with good intentions as you have said I think there is certainly a poem to be written there right the the Forgotten ones shall we say um but I do think that you know his I think up until a few years ago you know the children were sort of the consequence of these divorce actions of these two Knuckleheads that just didn't seem to grasp that their actions had uh tremendous consequences on other peoples other than themselves and they were just so focused on their you know those battles or War of the Roses shall we say between the two of them uh and until recently I think there's been a tremendous shift and really focusing more on the best interests of the children and ensuring that they succeed and I think a lot of the younger attorneys and the newer generation is more in L to uh you know bring more light than heat into these divorce proceedings um and ensure that the ultimately the kids are the benefactors meaning all right we're not going to spend their money and all these legal fees because we know that there's College expenses that need to be paid Camp expenses Lifestyles and things of that nature I think that a lot of attorneys now are always inclined to say to one parent by example that is continuously saying no I've the primary caretaker of the minor child I'm the only one that did this and attorney's heard saying okay that's fine maybe you were the primary caraker but let's really break that down and figure out what that means did you make the self decision no I talked to him okay what did you talk to him or her about what generally we wanted to do and what were the things okay and when and when you consider these options that were available did you just make these decision on your own or did you look at well is he or she going to like this or he or she going to like that or are the kids going to be enrolled this and at the end of the they really blows down to always telling his parents you never did anything alone everyone played a significant role so now because you know you think that you're the better parent or you think that there may not be the best parent let's just be realistic you may not do things the same way there's a different approach to something but at the end of the day there was always the combinator that both of you always wanted what's best for the kids regardless how you got there you may have gone a straight line any the other knucklehead may have just smelled the flowers and chased the bees all over but still got to the same point um and and I think that's sort of what we're focusing now on ensuring that these kids lives don't get damage right because back in the days you know myself you know give you an example you know I was you know a victim of my mom's unnecessary angst towards my dad right because of his irresponsibility shall we call it but I had nothing to do with that to me my dad was still my dad and I loved him with all my heart and my mom was still my mom right but that's just that it wasn't it wasn't like that historically it was like Mom had to take care of this and this is all and those sort of thought processes are sort of moving we moving away from them in reality and the law is becoming a reflection of reality because now the law is more coning set of like look unless you're absolutely a danger to the minor child there's no reason why you shouldn't have at least equal parenting time right you may fight the other person for it and you may increase the cost of litigation doing it but the end result it's still the same of maximizing both parents time with these children and so I think law is very reflective of what Society is doing nowadays and I think that our future is pretty bright because these children are seeing different role models in their parents and they're avoiding that visous sidey go that perhaps you and I right and I'm just assuming here right if if you guys went through the same process in your you truth but you know we're ridding ourselves of that vicious cycle where it just had to be one way and like I always tell parents too in situations is the way for example if I have a a father right the way you treat your wife assuming you have a daughter if you mistreat your wife that way your daughter is going to be like yeah well that's how I'm going to accept that right because that is what I know to be love if the father has a son and he sees his you know and his son is seeing a father mistreating the wife beat little him or the wife beat little him smacking him around whatever then that's what he's going to Define as love and I think nowadays we're really really separating ourselves from that by really encouraging people to just say you build your wonderful relationship with Mom you build a wonderful relationship with Dad you may not agree on things long but everyone back to our initial point right there is never ill intent in your actions may not think about it and May be the wise choice of how you approach it um and maybe a knucklehead Cal in her mood but it's never with any harm right or intent to harm your children and I think people need to realize that and people are realizing that and I do think that the next generation is going to have a different I think it's going to have a better future in parenting whether they end up divorced right they may end up divorced themselves but they're not going to be divorced with the idea of like I'm going to keep my kids away from this jerk uh or this knucklehead and weaponizing the situation again against the spouse that you're angry with and all that kind of Stu you you know Eric that's just just a disgusting thing to bring the children right like these kids you you you bire them you brought them to life you were there from the very moment and regardless of how you feel for your other partner now once upon a time I mean think about Wedding Crashers that scene right you guys used to love each other you guys to go out in the back of your you know Chevy whatever it existed Once Upon a Time remember those days and embrace those and then just learn to be like you just W compatible for one reason or another or you gave up that doesn't mean you're giving up on the family yeah like I mean you're saying a couple like I'll just put some psych terms and other things in it this whole thing they call it social learning theory you know like how you see someone treat someone else you're gonna learn how like that's an interesting I mean I was like oh yeah that's really profound because if you're right if a daughter sees the father treating the mother a certain way they're going to like take that upon themselves is that's going to seem like how you're supposed to tolerate Behavior if it's something nasty that you're just taking it out on this person that you used to love and now you don't anymore you're angry with yeah yeah I was say so my poem would be like you're gonna be fine right you're going to be fine right obviously a little more articulate right fashion but I think off the C that's what I'm trying to get that you've also done this really deep thing that like is very Buddhist so I'm just GNA throw it out there because sometimes that's my job on this thing to do this stuff you know the psych thing or the Buddhist thing and Daniel does this Shaman thing and you know but it's like there's a very Buddhist thing of like having gratitude for what people did and they make you do these meditations that are like hey other people have done a lot of nice things for you your spouse has and in this case we're talking about that but you know you know your your family did nice things even they did bad things they did some nice things so make sure you see that side or you know the people just in the community around you just have that gratitude because you didn't you you said a number of times you didn't do that all on your own right this other person was contributing it wasn't just you maybe you have resentments toward them now but look at all those things that they did you know and it kind of turns down some of the resentment a little bit right it's a Buddhist meditative thing almost yeah well let me ask you this you know for for my own personal edification right and perhaps helping folks going through these tough times Eagles are huge in family law right especially when you start right how do you or what do you say to someone to recognize that that gratitude right to to Really embrace the good things that someone else did what would you be your advice to you to say hey take it down a notch you know well it's almost like you were saying the things that are so right hey remember back in the day when you used to love this person so much look at all the great things they did for you look look at all the great love experiences and uh I mean even sexual experiences experiences they helped you do this they helped you do that just to remind the person they do this kind of meditative exercise you that's big in Tibetan Buddhism where they ask you to like kind of visualize Iz the person in front of you and take in all the negative experiences and energies and pull them into you and then clean them up and then send out the Good Vibes back so they ask you almost to do that sometimes to see if that won't help you to feel maybe energetically different with the other person but along with this feeling of gratitude while you're doing that remember the good things that person did for you right yeah by with that little meditative thing I don't that helps at all but you know that is something they ask you to do visualize the person in front of you you know it does I think that really that is actually quite important and I see it from from a family law perspective that you know the clients are never really talking to each other they're only talking through the through the attorneys or they're talking through this other application that the court has created to monitor this is how sometimes bad there's an application that's out there that you know the courts require the parties to communicate through this application uh and it sometimes measures your level of toxicity and it tells you you know like you're at this level right eight n whatever take it down before you send it out um it's a good getting thing or how does that work what is it I I think it's the verage that you put in there you can either start with deer us SLB versus okay back space back back space you know the level starts coming down I've never heard of that before have you heard of that Daniel I've never heard of it no but by the time you're done it's like hey babe uh I'll be home tonight thanks for everything honey that you owe me know it helps right because you're like you're letting your anger out in these messages and you're typing away and then by the time you get down to it it's like oh I could have said a lot more with a lot less words and then allows me to start you always tell my clients like start your email write your poison pen letter whatever you want to do do not hit set do not put anybody's name in the two section do not any put any anyone's name in the BCC or CC section just write it down come back to in the morning digest it right once you fully digest that then you realize okay I need to calm down because if you don't it just triggers a response and a negative response and another one and another one and then unfortunately you know in family law sometimes the attorneys take on the ego the alter ego of their client and they're the anger translator yeah yeah I I mean or or or or the one add to it to be honest Dan like there's moments where's like oh you're talking to me and you're like hold on no this is not about you it's about these two scale it back but there are EOS out there that need to be fed I guess I have to ask like I was asking Daniel if he watched it believe it or not I watched it with my 10-year-old maybe he was that age uh marriage Story the Adam Driver Scarlett Johansson thing because it kind of I me you're talking about your ethics from a very high place and the very spiritual place but that kind of gets into the whole I don't what you call it the business aspects of that too and the I don't know it's I mean if you haven't did you see the movie no no no but I I've heard things about it it was on my list and I think I did get the gist because when it came out you know there's these family law chats right and so people just started saying how on point a lot of things were and how people should extract information so my knowledge stems from you know all these chats that were going on about it but I I'm I'm I'm B familiar over it though yeah you think I mean like the obvious question and you're again you know complimenting you you're coming at this from a very highminded place right what do you think of your peers in the profession like you know do do you like your attitude is represents the ma majority opinion or a strong minority or how do you see that because obviously you're we can all tell you're talking about this from a very high ethical place so so I think that my I I'm now Eric that is been doing this for a long time to really understand you know we're just humans and and I don't need to bring you know more heat into this process right like my goal is to scale it back and that's really My Philosophy but there are a very small portion of family law is a very small um group of people in Illinois and so everybody tends to know each other so you're always your first set of questions when you know someone calls you for potential representation is who's who's the other attorney and who's the judge right and then we can clearly be like okay it's going to be fine we're g to mediate we're gonna go through this process here's what I can expect to go through but there are some that really thrive on you know taking on your client's personality or or or pounding their chest right because they feel like someone needs a bulldog right or pitbull whatever you know choice of spirit animal you need at that time to represent you and um they they go through that stuff and and what do you do right you know do I sit there again like I said earlier ey for an eye leaves everyone blind right sometimes our clients are like you're not being too aggressive I'm like what is my aggressiveness going to result other than just a heftier bill for you I'm more of the we can either go to mediator present our positions have the scale of back go to trial present our musicians let the judge decide rather than feed into that um in fact you know I think I received one of the best compliments from season attorney a few months ago where we hadn't had a case but we have heard of each other you know in crossing paths through other attorneys Etc and my reputation and he said to me like the most impressive thing is I can tell when you're mad sad happy but you're very straightforward and don't let those emotions really guide you in your argument for going on because there were some heated moments in some of in this case that we were at and I chose to just continue to talk like this with the acknowledgement of like I'm not going to pound my chest for anyone I know I'm a great attorney I know what the law says and I know what the facts are and I'm also a parent so I can understand where people are coming from an emotional standpoint and I'm not going to feed into that but a lot of people are I think more and more headed towards this direction of keeping things calm and cool and not having that uh what's the word I'm looking for not having that image that people need that they need you know a bulldog or Pitbull right to come represent them it's just it's unnecessary in fact a lot of people you know nowadays come to me and are like I don't want to fight I don't want to fight how do we keep this cool and then they test out your personalities to see if that's the person that you're going to work with you know and it turns out fantastic that way so do you feel like you have people who maybe are looking for that more bulldog and then you're kind of like well that's I'm not the right person for you or they just decide that you're not the right person based on me I think it's a com combination of both right I always encourage people to go interview attorneys to see if you have the right personality interview attorneys and then come back to at a later stage to see if that's really what you want and hear from different sides hear from me who's going to tell you I'll listen to you and I'll hear you but I'm never going to Plate you right and I'm not interested in that relation I will give you my advice you can make your decision on your own you're a grown person at the end of the day or they can go interview someone that it's like yes I'm G to kick his or her bot we're going to take everything that we're going to take and you know and the client's like I want everything I want the house the car the kids and everything and what what did they say to them yeah exactly that's what and sometimes that's what they want to hear half a million dollars later in legal fees right they realized that's not what I wanted to hear yeah yeah yeah that's the Laura D character I think in marriage story and she does job and it's Scarlett Johansson who's you know the you know the couple Adam Driver and and her and it ends up being a big fight over kids so it is it's painful to watch you know it's the kid that's really it's money and kids in the middle of this you know which I'm sure you deal with all the time right sure sure but there's a scene where Lura Duran I don't want to ruin the movie you know no major no I'm okay for for endings but you know it's sort of like um she kind of like Scarlet jeansson goes in with the initial attitude of like okay I'll try to make this as as expeditious as possible and it's almost like Laura dur kind of does this Great scene of like going well we can go farther you know we can get more we can get more maybe you deserve more and she like it's a great piece of acting I don't know how it true it is to life you know that there's Tris does that yeah yeah there's a lot of truism to that Eric there's a lot of people that feed on because you think oh you're entitled to it or you deserve it that's kind of the way she frames it yeah and you're you're fine right and that's the beauty of the law right the law is right there just to give you guidance right like worst case scenario this is your tiebreaker but mediation is the best thing because it allows you to figure out what you can do what you can live with and how you're going to continue that relation here's one big example so in mediation always tell people you're you're GNA have to preserve this relationship right your kids are only 10 eight five whatever me you're here for a longer term right you you get more you know we bees with honey than with vinegar and frankly people are receptive to that and open their minds and hearts to want to have a cordial relation in the process and figure out how to balance it right sometimes people say I want this I want the kids 50% of the time that's it and the other parents so adate there's no way you can do it your schedule you're traveling or you're busy Etc and so you give it to that then the other person realizes you know what I'm glad I kept an open door I can't do it it's not feasible you stay at home and you help me and then you renegotiate that and it's it's it's wonderful that Avenue but there are those people that truly and genuinely feed into you deserve more get more yeah that's right you know get him or her and and I don't get it right just because it's there doesn't mean you need to take it the best thing seen because it doesn't seem like it's only totally about the money or something it's a lot about like you deserve more and like look at all the ways the opposite of what you were saying look at all the ways this person caused you wrong look at all like emphasizing that as opposed to what you were saying okay at some point you love this person they did a lot of good for you you know frame it more that way yeah yeah yeah and and it always comes turns out really well when people do recognize on their own like you're right I'm not going to screw anybody out of certain things right I'm not here to screw anybody it's fair it's fair it is what it is I'll make more she'll make more we'll do well we've saved enough we're establish you know things are going to be fine it's fine it's fine the kids are fine the house is fine we're fine we're established um but when you do have people that give you that that feed into that ego that you deserve more and think about the person who's going through divorce may be going divorce for the first time so they don't know any different right they're not you know a person going through like their eighth divorce and understand that they can tell the lawyer no person who's going through the first time you're at your weakest Point you're at your most sensitive point you trust no one but your lawyer and you assume that your lawyer knows what's right for you but I always tell my clients like look I will give you advice as to whether something is a good or bad choice I will tell you what the law provides for I will tell you where you need to go for this and what options you have what your exposure is and what our strategy is going to be whether you choose to accept that or not it's entirely your choice like I can't force you into that that and many people appreciate that right and a lot of people there's many times when they come up with some deals I was like this is the worst deal I've ever seen but it's your choice you want to move on and you think that you're ready for this go ahead take your time it works out well yeah yeah I think like a real good piece of advice that you just like gave a little bit ago was you should really see multiple attorneys and find the one that actually sits fits with your personality and philosophy and I thought about that was like olist too Daniel and I have talked about that a little bit you gotta find somebody who fits you yeah you have a bad fit between this person and you you know find the person that you know resonates right I think that's a great piece of advice too right and you know the beautiful thing for example in family lives you know when you're first choosing your lawyer you may think this is the person that I want but like anything else you can always change your mind and go back to the other person I've had those situations where people come back you know months later they're like I'm sorry I I went down the wrong path and my case is a big mess now let's just scale it back to what you initially suggested we would do and let's just go down that Avenue right often when the person's trying to get more and they realize wait a minut if this wasn't worth it I better come back and yeah right now now my kids won't talk to me uh my wife isn't talking to me I'm bleeding money I'm tapping into my retirement account my friends won't even connect with me whatever it may be right like things just fall apart um and and people realize later on into the process that maybe it's just better to take a different approach yeah I think if they were doing those nine things to [...] up your life that we were talking about before they had a tenth one which is like being vindictive in these relationship ending things right yeah yeah yeah yeah it doesn't do anyone any good I mean from my experience you don't get anywhere family Evol tends to be a very predictable uh it's almost as plugging in something to Ai and I can tell you exactly where it's going to go right it's just in in the minutia right of like you know tracing specific numbers and moving some numbers here and there or figuring out what sched are but generally speaking it's nothing Earth shattering right we just know that parenting time is a dynamic concept as kids grow up they're needs change and as you probably may or may not know now your your kids probably aren't talking to you as much anymore because they're you know interested in hanging out with their friends instead of being entirely dependent on you and the older they get the less they want to hang out with you and sometimes parents don't see and so you could always you know go with the flow right you know and change it as much as possible if you if you could um but but but it's it's it's it's it's it's an interesting process and I think soon as people start to um understand the effect that it has on their kids or themselves do things start to settle and and yeah it goes back to you you can go look at different attorneys and decide which is the best Avenue for you at that time I if I ask you just to a couple of case studies are you cool with that Daniel I got a couple of ones I thought yeah yeah yeah we'll do that and then we'll wrap it okay I don't know much time you have go for it I I I can keep talking you guys can edit as much as you want so okay no no there's there's no editing here Marvin we're we're busy people my brother we you know realize how low Tech this is no this isra up low Tech brother you know what I'm saying this is this is a this is a cut and paste at best you know I mean low key low Tech that's it yeah for sure yeah well so I mean like Daniel like said hey we're having on Marvin I was like okay cool so what should we you know I was thinking about different things to ask you about and just again like Daniel and I being clinicians we have these cases that we've seen so I thought I'd just get your opinion maybe on a couple of these yeah if I can the one that jumps out to me you know obviously in the end you end up paying to the one pay attention to the ones that go badly or the situations that turn out badly so I one person I knew for a really long time and she got to the point where she wanted to get out of this marriage I think she had a lot of doubts going in she was one of the people I knew who I said are you sure you want to do this yeah you sure I'm not sure this is right for you and I don't sure I'm not sure this person is right anyways we knew each other for a long time eventually she wanted to get out of this relationship but what happened to her was she felt she felt two things and I don't know if they're relevant or not so I was just curious to see what your opinion would be because maybe it help other people who might be in these kinds of situations too so she ended up staying but the reason she stayed was almost entirely like kind of pragmatic she felt like she didn't have the financial freedom to leave which is one of the things you brought up earlier if it's if you're too financially entangled you know so she found herself in that thing and and I think she decided in end her husband was a very litigious person and he would never let things end it would go on forever and she was very afraid of that and she had some problems in her mental health history and so she was afraid okay if we get into something where there's going to be a legal fight all of my issues will be trotted out M and he'll like never stop and I'll end up fighting this person really over the most important thing for her which was custody of her kids sure like for the rest of my life I'll be going over this and his family came from another country so she was worried okay well I you know will I what will be the implications of all this so I know I thought I would just throw it out to you because it's it was really painful to watch her go through this and again not being an attorney I I tried to help her get connections with attorney but attorneys but I think you know she was so afraid of the whole situation sure di what would you I mean just as a case study what would you think of something like that do you have advice for people who yeah I I think well I'll address the Financial Freedom component first right because that always tends to be you know not withstanding the importance of the children you know the number one topic is what am I going to do I depend on this person entirely I have nothing it's not my name and I think that a lot of the folks that come in scared because of the Financial Freedom or lack of financial Independence just never have an opportunity to understand saying that there are options that are available to that right so for example you know some people come say to me well everything is in his or her name period so in his or her name uh we didn't have a pren out but he's tied everything and he's always told me he's going to screw me out of everything um only after understanding to them that regardless of how it's titled it's considered a marital asset and she'll have an interest in it and she'll be fine once we discover what's out there and what the support is going to look like and what the status quo is going to be like during the process do they then start understanding okay maybe I can borrow some money from my parents to start the process just to get the ball rolling and then everything else is going to you know fill in in the back end and I'm going to be fine you know if you know my questions always like are there retirement accounts yes okay you'll at least get half of that is there a house okay we either stay in the house or we buy out or we refinance or we um you know take other steps to ensure that you can assume the loan right and get some Equity out of that or you're going to get some income from this other source if there's children child support you're going to be fine right and that's really the big thing it's going to be fine if your hesitation is I rather say in a relationship that's abusive because I don't know if I'm going to be able to financially afford it then you're going to be stuck in that rut forever and you're just never going to get out and that will be your legacy that is your entire life and what lesson did you learn in this life then if it's not it's going to be have to be pushed on to the next life but my advice is like talk to somebody right there's a trades that are willing to give you you know free free time to like tell you what your options are and know what's on the table and I get a lot of those calls I've been thinking about doing this I don't know what I want to do how am I going to do and I just say hey just Snoop around gather some basic information tax returns bank statements I can give you sort of a high level of what to expect in that matter and you'll be good and they leave with that satisfaction they come back right on situation where I'm trying to interrupt you I'm sorry was there any situation where you know say an example of this person I'm talking about with her husband is there any situation where she could say you have to pay for my attorney to get this going or does he have the right to block that or how does that work between people yeah think she's very afraid of that so there's very various Avenues right and obviously you know attorneys are always going to you know their attorneys and their businessmen right so you got to look at what cases you take on but there are for example some Financial legal uh entities out uh some legal entities out there that provide um support you know for spouses of limited means or there are some uh entities and lawyers out there that will give you some preliminary advice and sometimes what ends up happening is this person may want me they're like you I Need You Marvin you're exactly what I'm looking for this is the step that I need to take how do I retainer and I give her my retainer mom my engagement letter the money but they go borrow the money at least to start off from their parents from fronts once you're in that process the law does allow you to petition the court for for the person who has a primary income to provide for the legal fees throughout the process and it's not necessarily he's paying for it or she's paying but rather it's coming off the top of the marital state so he can't say it's all my money you you're not getting anything like no that's her share you're just holding on to it and so they'll get it but there are steps right to that once you retain a lawyer for whatever it is some lawyers are willing to do it from the beginning ask for a feed petition and have them contribute to their retainer some lawyers are going to say pay me first and then I'll take the care of the rest on the back end and so those are options that you don't feel that you're always under the pressure be like I can't afford to stay in this process and so what the courts have the authority to do is this thing called leveling the playing field right whatever you getting she's entitled to both parties are entitled to representation and there's nothing that would create an impediment that prohibits that person from being able to get competent conso to represent them and that happens more often than you believe than you think but she was really scared of the whole thing you could see and then in the end she didn't do it and it was you know it was sad to watch what about now you're there yeah you're right and now now the kids think that that's that's what love is right yeah you know like Tina Turner said What's Love Got to Do With It in those situations yeah what about her concerns about custody and mental health things and things like that is that so that is it gonna come out yes are you going to deal with it because somebody wants to play dirty yes the question is how do you deal with it do you front it or do you hide it I'm a big fan of fronting it right and my my my thing is always unless there's a serious endangerment to the mental and physical well-being of the children it's worth nothing it's just you know throwing mud at you throwing mud at you and it's going to wash off and you see that more often than not to prevent the other person from getting custody or being in aent in the child's life to prevent the other person from making decisions but the court has all these tools in place that allows a third neutral party to investigate the veracity or the seriousness of the questions or the allegations that are being presented and most of the time they're not as bad as everyone thinks it's going to be I mean I've seen people come in with DCFS claims against the other person I've seen people come in with bipolar disorder the question is how does it affect the kids right if you left the kids with me before and while you've been gone and doing your things you you have nothing on me like the situation is almost like you're willing to be for me to be the mom of these kids when we're living together but all of a sudden we're not leaving together and not in danger but before yeah and it goes nowhere it goes nowhere like you just toss it out unfortunately you're just on the side of Defending defending or addressing frivolous CLA vacuous claims not even frivolous just vacuous right just unintelligent claims that just have no no bearing no weight whatsoever and spending thousands of dollars on something that really isn't worth it but the likelihood of success of their allegations are generally very little I mean like it needs to be very serious right like maybe your parent that's been in rehab for 13 times right you know three times sort of the normal but 13 times like okay there's no way this is happening like it's all and and even for a person that has have had issues right that I've seen whether it's mental health issues or bipolar whatever it may be the court is not inclined to immediately cut you off of the kids' lives right the kids recogn I mean excuse me the courts recognize that kids love their parents in whatever Incarnation there you see them yeah kids have a bond right kic yeah so I guess like her fear was also what you were talking about he'll get one of these Bulldog attorneys and he'll Hound me forever do you see those kinds of scenarios and how do you help defend people from that kind of thing because that was probably one of her deepest Fe this will never end F this person legally for the rest of my life he's that kind of guy and that's possible Right what ends up happening is that's where you throw in that remedy of okay you want to do this you're paying for the fees right I'm coming after you you're paying for the fees and look I I I've had a case that has been pending since 2018 right where we went to trial for an entire year where they settled the case from the a few months went to trial on the remaining issues started appeals we come back from an appeal court and we're still going through this process on how to resolve stuff because he is at the mentality so it's like I'm just never going to let it go because how dare you leave me yeah consequences pay fees but you still got to move on with your life you can't let that consume you right just live with this parallel to what you're doing still continue to date still continue to hang out still continue to be with your family still continue to Vacation live your life as normally as you possibly could this is just going to be a thorn on your side but that's about it but you can't I can't stop stupid from being stupid and I can't stop him from filing F his allegations yeah the response to that is how do you react do we file for petition for fees to get him to pay for the stuff do we seek sanctions against him and at some point his credibility is going to go down the drain right because the Court's just not going to entertain their nonsense anymore but you got to go through it at first but you can't let that be be the fear to not doing anything you know so like I always tell my daughter like you know every problem has a solution every problem is an opportunity for a new Solution that's what I try to encourage with folks as well you have to still in the kids like don't do things out of fear to right I mean that's a kind of a parental thing don't let things be afraid you might have obstacles you have to fight your way through them don't be afraid it's a parenting thing right it is yeah you've never done this in your life before yeah I agree yeah well that's that's that's a good that's a good place right there Eric okay yeah yeah don't don't don't be afraid because because I think there's people who because there there's people who wanted you know who and Marvin you and I talked about this on the phone a little bit you said there's people who be in relationships or marriages and you say well how long have you been thinking about this and they'll be like seven years 10 years and you're like you know okay what what you been waiting on you know what I mean like and I I I mean I I'll let you respond but I feel like it's it's fear not doing it is is out of fear and sometimes that fear is founded but at other times I I mean if you were to tell somebody hey I want you to make some of your most important decisions on your life out of fear people will be like why would I do that and you say I don't know why would you I agree and you're right it's exactly the conversation we had before whereas you know I was thinking about this seven years ago I was thinking about this 10 years ago now my pensions gone bigger and now I got to share with him or her right and and it's always well I don't know maybe the kids the kids are going to be fine as long as you're willing to cooperate in a parenting schedule yeah yeah um any any last kind of uh parting shots here Marvin before we uh call it an evening uh I just want to say it's been a pleasure uh it's been very therapeutic for me right uh I'm usually the one that's listening to you know imagine having 30 clients with you know their kids with 30 other attorneys on the other side with you know judges on the other end on a daily basis and you know this has been very helpful to like voice it out and and look at it right and just even hearing myself talking to you guys it's like okay I I still made the right decision I still love what I do I love law I love helping people out I'm doing right by making sure that everything's like just very chill and even focusing on the big picture and at the end of the day I think marriage is still a wonderful thing I can say like it definitely listening to you head the vibe to use our favorite word of being authentic this was an authentic VI yeah yeah you were speaking from a true place right thank you yeah thank you you guys very comfortable I really appreciate that too yeah no we and normally we start off with a little bit of the origin story but we kind of just like went right right right in hot and heavy right out the gate so um you there's too much important stuff to talk about with yeah exactly out there yeah maybe we'll have to have you come back on and talk about how you got into it in the first place and um you know because like I said like 50% of marriages end in divorce and so you know you being a divorce attorney you having parents who are divorced I'm sure that there is a little bit of uh one feeding into the other uh in some way shape or form even psych even subconscious that uh would be interesting to hear because like I said it affects so many people and if not us personally then maybe your partner it affects almost you know well half the people 50% you got odds it's going to affect somebody you got you got for sure right yeah you're 100% right 50% of marriages and a divorce the other 50% is in death right till death to us part you know rooting for the latter right where love and and and partnership conquers all but there are those 50% that then go and get married again and then they end up in the same Rod right and and still The Continuous divorce process um because whatever it is that they're trying to satisfy and I think you'll never realize that you're not trying to satisfy something you just hav't really gotten to know yourself I agree with that but you know what they say Marvin third time's a charm I I was thinking more like fo me once shame on you fo me twice on we got a staying down in Texas isn't that our former great president the stuttering and the confusion on that yes yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah Daniel when we were talking about the episode we were talking about okay well we'll talk with Marvin about how you hold on to your personal property but also hold on to your personal Integrity right and your personal authenticity and you're kind of like outlining a way to do this so you don't Lose Yourself processing these things so people can walk away with the feeling of like still feeling good about themselves feeling good about the world right if you're going to go and be all bitter on other people you're going to walk away a bitter person yourself yeah you are you're absolutely right absolutely I agree thanks so much Mark yeah thanks for thanks for coming on thanks for sharing thanks for being open um we found that like having people on it's it's um it's an interesting listen you know for people who are Outsiders and and and whatnot but then for the people who are who are on find it like therapeutically tell their story you know in this kind of a way and whatnot so it it's a benefit for all really and I think that uh when people listen to this they will they will see and feel your authenticity and the work that you're doing and trying to bring a stabilizing force in a uh of chaotic scene you know situations scenarios for people as they go through this part of their part of their existence if they have to uh and it's good to know that there are people out there who are trying to bring as you said uh light not heat yeah yeah that's that's actually a big thing right how do we figure out to bring a way to bring more you know light than eat to already compated process yeah I like that so uh yeah thanks for coming on thanks for chatting we'd be Lov to have you again uh in the future at some point uh Eric as always thanks for uh you know driving the ship with me brother thanks to our audience uh you know whether you're watching us on the YouTube or or listening on Spotify apple or I don't know whatever pod addict I don't even know there's so many different you know places that you people get us uh but if you have any uh you know questions comments uh concerns we don't take criticism at all so you know but you know but feel free to hit us up at a special app that just edits it out right just changes all the language and the compliments that's right your show sucks is awesome a but feel free to hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com or hit us up on the Instagram at Jin and Tantra podcast or uh leave a comment in the YouTube section like subscribe do all those good things that help out uh our show and our work in the algorithm uh and share with people who you like and people who you don't like and if you're getting divorced share this episode with them so that might uh loosen them up a little bit so they could stop being uh an ass so you know anyways or knucklehead I think was Marvin's language Marv be a knucklehead right yeah that's right myself yes with that choice of words but yeah that's okay you know someone to go to if you need someone Marvin right yeah take you through it in a spiritual way yeah Marvin thank you so much for coming on thanks again audience appreciate it we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]