[Music] hey fellow g& teers those of us like our spirituality with a Twist so uh we are doing the Tantra of attachment Theory that's our mission statement for these few podcast episodes we're recording we got to the point where we're going to talk about um attachment theory in adult life you know with the idea that uh we are going to work on these things inside of ourselves and it's also something where you know if you're gonna like be with other people we got to figure out these issues to make these tantric relationships work yeah for the benefit of all and uh I'm gonna do this for the first time yes do it so the first time I'm gonna do the Daniel does it at the end every time I'll do it the beginning just to say hey if you get value of of our podcast and you love what we're doing we love doing it for you so go through and maybe just give us a little bit of a review and the thumbs up or just hit subscribe YouTube and the other uh Services you use you can always find us also on Instagram give us a little TLC over there that's right that's right got Facebook stuff we got the whole deal so as you hear over and over again yes every podcast you've ever listened to ever do that thing that they all ask you to do that's right do it yeah for everybody not just for us it it costs nothing and it it helps it costs nothing it helps us out and this is a labor of love yeah right we really are trying to like share good stuff I was thinking about to Daniel and I we don't want to dwell on it but we happen to be recording this in February 2025 yeah at the easiest times and I was thinking you know it's so important to have these conversations about things that are have personal meaning right like we have to be able to find these personal meaning things regardless of whatever else might be happening in the world and probably whenever you're listening to anything like this there'll be something happening in the world always is it's life something's going on now but there'll always be something going on wherever you're finding this and it just occurred to me how meaningful that is you know even when things are crazy to be able to find that spiritual meaning back yeah it's so important yeah all right so we're doing our uh Tantra of a tant theory and we were at the point where we're GNA like look at some of this in adult life uh give some comments on maybe how you might find insights into whether or not you feel that you have any kinds of these things that you need to work through so that's kind of the next step in this whole project and I guess depending how it goes we'll also talk maybe today maybe next time about what we think this means in terms of like spiritual practice and the tandas in particular yeah all right so into adulthood you know what's really interesting about this is when they talk about you know we've been from previous videos you following along the whole thing we got four different kind of attachment Styles so it's kind of almost like some people use this almost as like personality types or something right I'm not sure that's always the best thing to do with a theater like this but you know kind of four different types of folks with uh you know potential different things around this and you know when you look at the stats on it only about 50% of the people kind of come up secure which means you got 50% of the people who are in one of these other types where there might be struggles involved and I don't know what you thought about those numbers I was like yeah that's a that's not a small issue right get some stats like that half the people are gonna be struggling with this in some way or another so and in general that would mean like you know more trouble F like creating more enduring bonds with people trouble with romantic relationships sexual relationships and so on so the secure thing is interesting too because it introduces these two ideas we were talking a little bit off mic about Esther Perell and you know we're doing uh episodes where we like to talk about relationship stuff we've done episodes around on her before and I think she references these kinds of things too in her discussions where there's kind of two sides of like healthy attachment one side is the idea of like this Safe Haven notion where you have some places where you can feel secure we talked about it last episode a little bit and then the other side is that you feel like you can have this secure base to go out and explore the world so I think that's an idea that I mean to me Daniel I know it's something I keep coming back to whenever I think about these ideas that those are two of the most important Concepts right can you get both of these set up for yourself can you get like a safe haven and also have this secure base thing where you feel like you can go out and explore I think that's like so important so from from an adult or childhood perspective talking from an adult perspective adult perspective yeah know for kids too but this is that transfer to adults right yeah I got some ideas about this I guess we'll go through the types Depending on time we have you know we'll save it for maybe for next episode but yeah I mean in in children obviously was as we discussed last episode that's of utmost importance because it it really limits the ability of the child to find themselves comfortable in UNC comfortable situations or new situations we'll even say maybe not even necessarily uncomfortable but new situations and so they're more likely to venture out and do different things try different things leave home right the world is not it's a scary place but not as scary as I might believe it to be based on the reactions of my parents and then as an adult it's much of the same thing right because we are we're grown children basically right I mean yeah well the same needs right the same needs core even though maybe what you're looking for is different right and so as a as a kid maybe it's going out and and trying something new a new food or hanging out with a different friend but as an adult that's taking the risk right yeah to open a business to go travel somewhere else to I don't know expose yourself in a different way to conquer fears you know um so these are the kinds of areas in which you can you know sort of have a a safe A Safe Haven and that gives you the the ability to grow in different ways yeah yeah you almost need like both sides of this somehow to be met the yin and the Yang of that like we talked about last time you know they both have to be there but then I'd be remiss Eric if if I didn't mention and we don't we won't have to go into it now because I know we're going to do an Esther Perell episode um and maybe we can reach out and see if she'll hop on with us at some point or we can go on hers but um the other the the the sort of the dark side to that would be compl you know would be complacency familiarity and sort of lack of spontaneity lack of Fire not having the other uh the newness if you will you have Safety and Security on one side but then like newness and spontaneity on the other and so I you know yeah I know it's like I you know I was giving it a read listen too you said you just kind of like were finishing up with you know one of the couple of books that she has and I gave a couple of chapters a listen to uh you know we'll do Esther Perell stuff even more but it's you know it is the thing that keeps coming up like can you get both of these things right or you get yourself somehow like okay I got the safe haven but I don't have the exploratory opportunity and things can stale out right yeah yeah I don't know okay since we brought it up I'll I'll pull it up like just should be right here licky splitty yeah well that that that's part of that's part of the difficulty in in in long-term relationships right is managing both of those pieces and how and how do you do it right because it's not it's not that oh it's only going to be for some people no this is a facet of every long-term relationship uh I I can't remember if it was in one of her books or uh some other piece that I was reading but they talk about like in the beginning of of relationships the newness is chemically driven right meaning dopamine so yeah you see somebody it's new it's fresh you get that hit DOP mean you're excited to see them right you know you've you've never done this you they've never worn that You' never been to this place with them this is a new environment so that newness keeps you going but actually over the Long Haul it's the serotonin right we talked about this before this dopamine serotonin dopamine short-term hit new fresh get it out of my mind oh my gosh instant gratification serotonin longer ter takes longer to build but gives you a deeper sense of satisfaction because it's more deeply grooved into your mind and into your body and so in a relationship the longer that you spend time together the more that you Bond you start to release oxytocin and then this sort of develops those like serotonin type bonds which you feel the the kinship the the sort of like I don't know how to say it like deeper Bond I know I keep saying it over again but you feel the deeper bond with your partner and that that gives you that longer term kind of positive uh withdrawal if you will okay so um I'm laughing because it's such a deep set of questions and I have some questions and doubts about aspects of that but I know if we want to run off and do the whole deal but the part that gets me all right this this is going to be a different episode but that's fine [...] it that's fine the thing that gets me is I don't know about I have questions about the serotonin interpretations you know um because obviously that's a part of like um relationship connection right but there's also the question of like is the dopamine thing only the shortterm hit and the serotonin is like almost framed is like the more positive thing right the serotonin is the thing that's going to like sustain yeah the serotonin oxytocin yeah okay well let me give a little of the hell in Fisher stuff since we're we're riffing yeah we're in Ritzville okay so there's this relationship psychologist named Helen Fischer I can't remember if she's come up in any of our episodes too much she has her own deal with this the way she talks about I think she was a leading person like match.com one of those online websites right plenty of fish is that what they said I can't no I don't I don't know I'm just bullshitting um remember if they had like a tagline or a slogan or something but uh all right so anyway she said there's like kind of it's another personality type thing that this helps you out right so she talks about there's four types of folks right and she went in with the idea that like opposites to trct when she was doing her research so her idea was like maybe she kind of divides people up in like are you more of like an estrogen type person you're more sensitive you're more emotional you know you you're kind of longing for this kind of emotional connection that's how she talks about then she'll talk this is like off the cuff but I remember this decently well and then there were testosterone people who were a little bit more aggressive and assertive and um they're probably looking for um that probably less of the emotional connection sexual things but also like they're kind of doers you know uh you know they want to be out and they're involved in a lot of activity they're productive people and then she went to the idea of the serotonin people who are sort of more stable um secure type people right and then she went to the dopamine people and the dopamine people who wanted a lot of variety and change and activity they're exploratory people so she has she has a whole deal about this right and then her thing initially was that maybe Opposites Attract so maybe the estrogen and testosterone people are drawn to one another right and then maybe the serotonin people and the dopamine people are drawn to one another that was her thing going in but then it turned out like when she actually did the research that wasn't the case what happened instead was that the estrogen and testosterone people were drawn to one another and I I remember like in thinking about it it was kind of a strange draw because they're kind of they're attracted to one another she thought right but they're they don't quite fit in a funny way where you know the one person is looking for this emotional sensitivity and connection and the other person is not that kind of person as much right and they kind of clash when I first heard the theory I went holy [...] that explains my parents like so well because my dad was this more testosterone type person my mom was this much more emotional person and they bonded to one another right they probably had a certain chemistry right and so it's just kind of like a hormonal way of kind of talking about chemistry between people too but they're going to Clash on some level because they're looking for different things from each other so I don't know sometimes you get these little theories and they help you understand something about your whole life and you go yeah aha that explains it I remember with my mom she'd always be walking in my dad would be doing something you know and my mom would walk in to make the emotional connection and then my dad would be like Judith leave me alone I laugh now but I was like holy [...] that makes so much sense but anyways when Helen fiser the L doing this research got to the serotonin and dopamine people uh she realized that they weren't that into one another and serotonin people were drawn to other serotonin people and they wanted more sort of stability and regularity consistency kind of stuff and then the dopamine folks were more drawn to each other too and they wanted more variety and excitement activity and exploratory things so anyways I react a little bit when people talk that way I go like you know there's this other p pie of this question know that this lady talks about so it might not be like a universal thing if you get like a dopamine driven person you say hey here's a bunch of Serotonin they're like no thank you right I don't want that you know that's not gonna be something that they're gonna want to do and maybe if you're listening to this that might help explain aspects of yourself too you know I think the part that that makes me like what she talks about is that like you have to con consistently insert what it is that you are lacking as time moves on so if you're a dopamine person you know in the beginning again there's you know things are new things are fresh you and this is common knowledge but again doesn't hurt to be reminded you have to consistently put in new pieces so and I remember there was something I was reading before that's like you have to see your partner in a new light which is why it's good to go out to new places because you see them in literally new Lighting in new situations or different clothes or whatever the case is so you have to add that into the relationship regardless of whatever kind of personality that you have it's a maintaining of the the freshness as juxtaposed like you talked about earlier to the security piece to that would be like the dopamine vibe from what you're saying you need newness that you have to inject into the things live like yes in order to not be um completely disarmed you know because one of the things that is is important to remember is like this person is an independent person nothing they're not yes they're you know maybe your your person if you want to claim ownership of somebody or they want to claim ownership of you or you want to give your own license away um but you are indep independent entities you know and so the opportunity for you to see somebody in a fresh set of eye with a fresh set of eyes benefits both you and them regardless of whatever you are but it does it does lead Credence or you know lend Credence to the the dopamine kind of aspects of our mind you know yeah yeah yeah it's an interesting Theory I get what you're saying I mean there has to be some kind of balance regardless correct because you need to have something like a safe haven but you also need to have something like I can go off and explore yeah right it was wild because I you know we were doing these episodes on attachment Theory so I did think of like the Esther Perell book everybody loves Lester Perell which one mating in captivity I did I was looking at mating captivity yeah you know so like it I hadn't remembered this but the very first chapter of the book relative to attachment Theory and she doesn't specifically mention attachment theory that I can remember but it kind of is always kind of woven in there some way or another feels to me you know so the very first chapter is called from eventure to captivity why the Quest for security saps erotic vitality and I was like okay all safe haven you know no exploratory secure base right it's all like the one side of the thing you know and it's interesting then because when you you I G I gave a listen to a couple of the chapters again right and you're like yeah it's so much can you get some kind of balance between these two things right yeah yeah I forgot how how it was worded I don't know where I heard it but something like familiarity breeds comfort and comfort kills AOS yeah it sounds like an estra paral line if she didn't say it she would love it right like this and and it's it's unfortunate but true um and I would just say you know for myself personally having you know being more aware of these things as time kind of goes on it's crucial for success and some people do this naturally so like I'm very envious to those people you know there's it just like they have it in they know what they they have a sense or maybe they learn it from their parents or whatever I didn't you know my parents are divorced and married multiple times so you know I'm only is successful as their as their worst one you know I mean you okay so last episode I'm not going to put you on the spot if you might want to talk about it like don't but the thing is when we were talking last episode I was like well I grew up in this chaotic just emotionally tumultuous physically violent household right yeah it wasn't all the time and then like again I'll make the same caveat there are people who had worse experiences than me sure but I was like yeah this was like there was violence and there was just a lot of this kind of stuff so you know for me learning this theory was okay I got at least I grew up with these issues around this disorganized thing that we talked about last episode right yeah and then to get to the secure attachment thing that's the theory right eventually you work through your issues you find your your your way to a better space okay but um so I kind of like was doing that and I was like well you know I wasn't sure if you wanted to talk about how you thought this Theory reflected on your experiences because ours are very different like my parents never divorced should they have perhaps right like all the time my brother and I were like we just do this already yeah so I'm not saying it wouldn't have been right for them but you know they did it the other way and they were maybe even a little bit old school sure it would have been right for them but you know you're you're bringing up now so what do you think you went through the divorces and the changes and the the breaking of attachments do you think this translated into anything of these four types for you and stuff that you needed to feel like you needed to work through in terms of the uh testosterone more like the attachment stuff do you feel like any of those things did you feel avoidant did you feel anxious did you feel disorganized did you feel any of those things I mean possible but I'm not that I can I'm not not that I can point out you know with any kind Clarity you know so you feel like a little bit more like would you fit into like the secure Vibe do you feel that way I'm not trying to put you on the spot you know it's but it just occurred to me like okay I know we know each other yeah I know the history I've been like okay is any of this app does does Daniel feel any of this applies to him H not that I not that I'm aware of to be honest I say you feel secure I guess sure yeah all right okay groovy you don't feel avoidant I know who knows I mean I'm I'm an American male so for sure I feel avoidant you know just as part of the culture you know there's always there there's a big uh string big theme of of autonomy and freedom and whatnot but I feel like that is yeah yes that's part of me but I also feel like that's absolutely part of this culture you know everybody wants to be their own boss not everyone but You Be Your Own Boss you make your own way you be your own man you're on your own path you know what I'm saying like that's I I can't take credit I don't know that I can take credit less of a personal thing it's more just sort of like okay this is a cultural thing right I'm gonna blame that anyways okay yeah I get you I mean the other part for me and I you know we'll maybe talk about this in future episodes but it's just like even when I was looking back at the Ester Parell I I'm not you know in the exclusiveness uniqueness kind of thing she has the more monogamous kind of oriented folks who are the exclusiveness and the more non- monogamous people who are oriented towards the uniqueness I'm like uh you know more of the uniqueness side of things right and I feel like that fits into the stuff that we'll talk about as I guess we wrap these episodes up you know with the tantric thing yeah um and so for me I sometimes feel like when I'm listening like Esther Perell or even you know when we're having these conversations I feel like somehow I have to be aware of like okay I don't necessarily want the same thing as other folks and so I'm partially I was thinking about it during the week you know I'm partially looking at this from kind of like the outside in you know and looking at like with a compassionate eye to go okay well you know the issues that elra perel's describing I don't necessarily feel like are my issues in some ways because my what I want is just different you know so even in listening to it again I was like okay I get it you know but at the same time it's not kind of what I'm looking for you know so I still find it interesting but it's also like well I don't know if all of this feels equally applicable to me though I want to understand it because we want to understand people and what they're going through so that that crossed my mind too I think the I mean there's a lot of things in her work that is that is very good you know she really has been focusing you know she has a and I think she has a podcast too now um where she's you know sharing actual like therapy sessions like case study sessions with like live with their and you can hear her working with her patients live yeah yeah or recorded not live but recorded and one of the most kind of like Illuminating aspects for me was simply having the discussions around what what is monogamy what is our relationship what is newness for you what is comfortability for you right having those discussions opens up other layers of our unspoken bonds and navigating through those unspoken bonds can really help to flesh out our own desires for our relationships for our responsibilities you know on both sides of this because I'm responsible to the other person the other person is responsible to me whether we're in a single partnership you know multiple partnership it's always you and one other person you know this this kind relationship so being able to go in and like do the exploration externally with your partner and then internally with yourself to be able to orate those things I think is it benefits both people immensely and it there is not I don't know of another way that you would be able to have those kinds of conversations on that level if you were not aware of doing it you if you weren't aware of these kind of um aspects of attachment and then when you get to do that you really can kind of like disarm some of the some of the fears and expectations that we have whether they're um self-created or societally induced or a combination of both but if you can own whatever it is that you believe in and share it with somebody else and have you know dialogue around it well then the the areas that are kind of gray or unspoken they cease to exist and so you get to exist in a partnership that is much more clean because the expectations and hopes and desires come they come they rise to the surface they get shared with each other consciously as opposed to just being assumed you know till death do its part the self-awareness of this then also the asking questions about the institutions themselves and think okay what do they really mean yeah and then what do I think they really mean when they're like relative to me yeah yeah yeah yeah because even even people who exist in like you know polyamory situation they still cheat on their Partners it doesn't matter even if you're you know you say you have rules okay I can be with this person you be with that person just let me know if you do this let me do they still do whatever they because it's the it's the draw sometimes you know the taboo aspect of it that you don't you know you don't want to necessarily share things so even in those cases even where the the the non monogamous folks are you know sometimes you know maybe righteously so or you know think themselves maybe a little bit morally Superior some people you know to say oh I don't I'm not stuck by this and yet they're still plagued with some of the same issues that the that the monogamous folks are so you know ultimately these kinds of conversations you get to open up the I believe the Deep layers of your psychology and your own insecurities really truly and to be able to you know hold space for someone else to do that and for them to hold space for you ultimately builds like can you know can strengthen uh a partnership regardless of whatever level you're at whether it be you know friends with benefits to you know long-term um you know married couples or whatever yeah yeah yeah yeah there's like a lot of we got like not that much time a lot of stuff to say you know I think the whole I think she does like this end up being a little bit more of an Esra Perell kind of conversation a little bit of a Helen Fisher conversation so maybe as the wrap up to me I think Esther peral is being honest I think she doesn't think there's a solution no she's very explicit about that I don't have a solution to this but I can tell you what I think that Dynamic problems areh which goes back a lot to like how do I have uh a secure base and also have like a safe haven how do I get the exploratory part of me going and how do I get the security parts of me going and do I have to give up all of my secure all my explorator to get my security I that's to me like an interesting question and again for me looking from the outside and if I'm just honest about it I would say I don't care if somebody cheats I don't care about that in my own life other could be hurt by that and I get it but in my experiences of like this you know I these these issues aren't my issues anymore but you know they're also like major issues for other folks too and I don't know what that means I think we'll get to explore that in future episodes I think that's something to really talk through yeah because I wonder what that means in terms of like spiritual stuff you know if when I was listening to spel I was like wow man if I was like still and again this is not to be like look how cool am I talking about before I'm not doing that I promise look how great I am n I'm not doing that I swear to God yeah uh uh and all the all the Buddhist goddesses too but it is something where I was looking like wow that'd be a lot to carry you know if I was like if I felt like I was burdened by a lot of the stuff that she's talking about in her case studies I would find it to be spiritually hard you know I'd be carrying too much weight at me maybe the other part just as the cappers we ending to the end because we end up talking about these two great ladies Esther Perell and Helen fiser maybe the other thing in self-awareness is to like if that Helen Fischer speaks to you if you go back and say you know I am a pretty dopamine person okay you know then you know something about yourself and you probably know like I probably need another dopamine type person I need another exploratory Freedom oriented person that's my jam that's my vibe and that's what's going to make me feel good and if you're serotonin person you need another security stability kind of person that's your that's your that's your place right that's the place you come from yeah and then and then if if the other person doesn't you have to provide your own balance because if a dop you know dopam me person might get tired or bored of this person and then because they feel bold in their life they're going to go okay well I'm going to you know I'll find somebody else no problem you know but you could you do that until eventually you run out of Landing room you know like the runway ends and now you're however old and like oh [...] I know I got in the notes too I'm not sure what it what it means in terms of like if you're and then for future episodes just previewing but I don't what it means if you're always having there's a lot of that mysterial monogamy stuff a break with this person a break with that person and I was thinking about the attachment mechanisms I like I know what it does to that over time you know if you keep having these separations you know I honestly don't know you know yeah I don't know it's a different it's a different lifestyle than mind you know right but I thought about it I thought well that's not an easy that's not an easy thing to like build all these attachment bonds and then have them go Splat you know and I to start Starting Over Again [...] you know that's not easy no I guess it gets to the sale thing there's no Universal right solution no right there's not but you know we'll we'll kick this around I that that maybe the hell and Fisher stuff helps out a little bit too you know for taking like who are we like and then the other part maybe to be continued with this would be like getting the right fit if you got it's always about the right it's always insert earlier too and I didn't say anything about it well you know jump on all of them because life is short I didn't want to like kill your flow but you're like well it's how you insert yourself and I was like maybe that's true Daniel yes it is it totally is okay how and where you know what I mean dep it's how you receive too that is correct that um anyways to be continued I suppose but I mean nice episode in that we kind of kicked some of this stuff around you know a little bit of a a freestyle that we like uh but I fun to share the Helen fer stuff too maybe is a thing that follow up on that at some point Daniel before we totally take off I wonder about the serotonin thing too because when I heard her Theory to be continued I a little suspicious about all the serotonin reuptake Inhibitors everyone's on and you know it's a little bit hostile to the dopamine and it might make people can potentially make you put on weight get more Yin and you get less Dynamic and I worry about that a little bit too let's we should start there next time be continued to be continued all right well everybody you know tune in because we're you know we're diving into the the real [...] you know and uh that's what we do that that's that is you know the world is crazy right now for those of you who made it to the end your your attention span is in the top 10% of the country which isn't that great actually so ironically enough ironically enough it is not fantastic so you're better than most congratulations uh however we are the bottom of the barrel at this point in human history with uh our attention span so uh good for you and and good for us and good for whoever's listening and as always uh thank you for tuning in uh like comment subscribe share our work we definitely appreciate it hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com hit us on the gram the Jin and Tandra podcast show some love um you know like comment subscribe do all the things we appreciate everybody's uh input their ears your hearts your minds all that stuff you know this is a labor of love and uh yeah we're grateful for everybody who Tunes in so for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace