[Music] hey felly and tears those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist so we're into another one of our little series that we like to do and we're working through this subject that we've actually kind of held off a long time talking about we did a lot of spiritual stuff but we haven't really talked much about Tantra in the sense of karma mudra what it really means to work with a partner sexuality and spirituality in kind of a different way than we've done we did a lot of relation a lot of relationship and love kind of stuff especially 2023 so if you want to go back and Peak those and last week we started our like really talking about more the Tantra Tantra Karma mudra part of things and if you're following along last week we kind of did kind of the the what is it and the wise of why you would do it I wasn't sure if you had anything else you wanted to say about that Daniel before we click this along you're good okay I wasn't sure if the end anything else that you want to add to that well we did a lot on kind of the reasons why you would want to work with the sexual energies either as part of your own meditative practice or you know with a partner right and so we did a lot of that kind of stuff uh and this week we're going to work through Dr neidas and I'm going to hold this little book up here for the camera right ideas of six misconceptions about sexuality and meditative practice and Tantra and Karma mudra specifically so we're doing a kind of a traditional Asian cultural thing we're kind of using a text in this case Dr neat and we're kind of taking him his stuff as sort of a starting place and we're going to do some commentary but whatever D and I Daniel and I want to share as our ideas about this right to compliment what he's doing all right cool so I think my thought on the six six misconception things would be something like he'll give us a chance to look at what he's saying and then um you know I guess I already said it anything that we want to add you know around that you know I think that's kind of an interesting thing to do so okay cool six Mis six misconceptions so the first one um is this whole question of secrecy yeah so should these things be out in the public domain or should they be kept more on the QT and be more secret I was kind of thinking about this whole set of episodes earlier and I was thinking how interesting it like again we try to be personal on the podcast and I was like you know it is interesting for me because I never really thought I'd talk about this stuff in a public way I always thought I thought it would be more of like things that were private but I do think there's something good about going out and having these conversations at least I can feel it for myself talking about these things in a more open way it feels good yeah at the same time I kind of thought wow I never thought I would do this and yet here we are so I don't know how it feels for you Daniel I mean there are not really I know many Traditions hold things secret but I don't know I think it at this day and age like there's so much information out there it's hard to find things of real depth in general just because you're sort of like drugged down so many different Pathways with people who know tiny bits of of things that then sell you on something else and so you know we talked about this you know maybe a month two months ago you know one of the obstacles being like false teachers you know just kind of charlatan type people and so that's a that's part of the problem but the other part is that like there's many things that are kept secret and I just feel like if you are for whatever reason attracted to particular teachings you're going to find them and whether or not someone wants to keep them secret or not I don't know I'd rather have things be out there and even if they get bastardized and whatever people who are interested and who are going to practice you know and not looking for just like a quick fix or a talking point uh they will they will make their way to it and having this information available I think gives a little bit of a wider net for folks who might not have normally found it so I'm a little bit less on the taboo stuff I I I do realize that it was used previously as a uh as a filter right to find more dedicated students and to hold these things in high regard it's like you know um we don't ever talk about this but like I I taught raiki for many years and you know one of the things that you learn in the course is that like when it came to the states in like maybe the 60s I think I remember when it was they would charge back then like $10,000 to learn it oh wow okay right like this you know in today's money that's in the 1960s that's like yeah yeah that's probably a hundred grand now you know so it's like imagine you're going to learn something that you you don't even know who's going to use it but you're going to char you're going to get charged $100,000 to learn but what it does is it creates a very very high value because it's taking your value system and and maxing it out and saying this is so unique so special it's going to cost this much now obviously there's a high amount of scarcity to that so that this elastic kind of uh economic relationship between that and its availability makes it such that you can charge that but what I'm I'm just using the point of that's very expensive but it was also very rare however it is not that case anymore it is not even 10,000 now not even close to that and anybody could learn it that you know stuff is all out there they still want to try and keep some things kind of secret but most of it you can find on you know Google articles or new you know whatever internet articles you know what I'm saying so I just feel like say what you're going to say teach what you're going to teach and those who are interested are going to practice it and in in today's age where the attention is so diffused diffused um as much as you can kind of throw a little flare uh along someone's potential algorithmic Journey throughout the internet because it's not you are not free to choose what it is that you want to see on the internet as much anymore it's like what's handed to you based on previous search history location demographics like you're being sold stuff as soon as you go online you know it's like you're the political perspectives of Elon Musk for example there you go yeah I mean and they say about you know everybody their [...] is that they all stink you know yeah oh I'm sorry their opinions yeah um you know so I'm just for me I know a little bit longer tiate but like I I I'm I'm very Pro open it up open the floodgates the information is here the philosophy is here the the tradition holders are here that there's texts being written there's stuff being talked about like if people are interested you know as they say in Arabic yell it's kind of like um it was partially like a little astrological in the sense that we're going into the age of Aquarius sure uh the age of Pisces and Pisces was going to be things were spiritual but secret right and now you're in the time where everything's going to blow up and become more public yeah right and I was struck by this over the last the course of my little spiritual life right that all of a sudden things that you'd have to climb to a top of a mountain to get you know or you'll wander in the desert for many years you can just like get that thing like online and have it delivered to your house house right yeah I can remember when like I was listening to the guy who was translating the Zohar which is one of the big cabalistic books uh you know not even just a book but like a whole set of volumes you know real elaborate cabalistic very deep stuff and I remember like just go was translating it and I was listening to him giving a lecture about and I was like this is wild this is a wild time to be alive because you can read like the most mysterious Tantra and the Zohar and the Sufi teachings and all this I mean that's part of what our podcast is about too right we're in this time where all this stuff is now available and in one lifetime you can read all that [...] who could do that before you know you know have that much exposure to so many things right if you get to the um the with whether it should be secret or not I mean the Dal Lama agrees with you and I think he's been a real positive influence in this right because he basically said okay if we don't put these things out we're just going to get a bunch of shoddy stuff that goes out so we better put out things that are authentic to otherwise it'll just flood with a bunch of stuff that's kind of like me you know to like not good at all maybe not just me but like and uh you know that will be bad and he shares this anecdote where he said he was in India you know and there was kind of a guy who was a supporter Indian guy he was like a businessman or something nice guy generating good karma by supporting things and he was at the Dal Lama's Place wherever this was and there was a manuscript there of something secret and tantric and uh the guy just started flipping through and reading it and the dalama was going okay this probably wouldn't have happened before right where some person would just come up and read these things and then the guy said well I can read those words I have no idea what the hell any of that means and the Dal was just like okay good that's how it's going to be going forward you know we're going to put these things out you know that otherwise would have been kept very much on the QT and um you know people who want to find their way to it will get it right and it's better to have that happen in the situation where where people who are searching for things that are real can find them right and we'll do the best we can to be respectful of that while we're doing this episode yeah so maybe some balance I think G rache was really big on the idea that you should keep some things secret so I think there are things that I L of respect for him I'm going to do but other stuff we're going to talk about though I I guess I thought I'd never talk about any of this so I'm glad we have this podcast it feels good to share some of this stuff okay misconception number one misconception number two is this a lost or dying um so I think what Dr is trying to get here is that it can be kind of difficult to do some of these practices if you try to do them in the most demanding ways right you know you could turn these things into really difficult either meditative exercises or like sexual uh acrobatics or something and it could be maybe in a way that like you they could feel like well you know that's kind of daunting but I think what Dr Nita is trying to do which I think is our goal to emulate would be like do this in a way that's sort of more accessible to people so it doesn't have to be so absolutely difficult or something we can kind of try to keep it real but also make it like available or something so that's his misconception number two you got thoughts on that at all Daniel um not really okay okay you know like I remember like the first time I met llama Glenn he was talking we were talking I said like I don't mind doing really complicated meditations I don't I kind of enjoy them you know but like I also can recognize that they're not for everybody kind of right yeah and you have to you know you got to break things down and give it to people in in a in a way that is you know digestible and so even now like my own practice is still growing you know even in we haven't even talked about this you and I a little bit but like you know even in in the last month there's been there's been like a lot of progress and I'm not sure where it's came from you know um so I think you really have to try we have to in interpreting these things provide context right but then also understand the audience and that like we're providing commentary on a text which which means there's a text that they can go to and that there's texts that those texts comes from and there's traditions and stuff that follow them so we are a bridge we're a gateway drug if you will um and and I I want to ensure you know that that people understand not that not that anybody really says anything a whole lot about this but I want to consciously Express that I am aware of my role in that part I didn't create anything we are sharing things that are useful for us and have been useful for many other practitioners for the last at least I don't know since padan sbaba so I don't know when he was around 1100 well you talk about like yeah probably you're going like a thousand years but like even more so right because these things probably go back deep deep so at least a thousand years so you know we're we're the entrance towards that so I kind of gu and you know if we talk about honestly between the two of us I don't mind going to things that are deeper more challenging when we're talking here and you are usually kind of like pulling me back yeah and we have our own little dynamic in this right one or the other of us might go kind of deep and the other person will go kind of like well then let's make it accessible correct and we go back and forth on this right and it's kind of like a little bit of like okay let's make it real you know let's make it deep and then also at times whether it's you or me sometimes it's you saying hey dude pull it back which is fine right and uh uh you know or it's the opposite you know whichever one of us is going into the place where we also try to balance it out by going okay let's also make sure that we have a range of things for people who want to go into the dive into deeper waters we got some stuff there but we also people who are hey I'm like learning how to swim I'm getting into things where I want to see if this fits me so I'm putting the toe and the water here and there and that's all fine and all good all right so that's his his misconception number two that seems fine that probably means more in the context of someone coming from a Tibetan place too because there might be all kinds of ideas you have to have all this very advanced stuff with this um but you know necessarily have to have this okay misconception number three and I think this is one you've been wanting to talk about for a while Daniel so I think I'll throw it out to you first uh because to me I think you brought it up oh a bit ago this is the difference between what you might call Karma mudra and what you might call K Sutra yeah so I don't know if you want to take the lead on that one or if you want me to like yeah you start it and then you know okay I all right so the idea is that these really aren't quite the same thing Kamas Sutra comes more you know it's more a thing about like The Joy of Sex or something like that right trying to go and get something that's more about sexual enjoyment sexual learning about sexuality learning technique within sexuality these kinds of things to optimize one's joyfulness of one's sexual experience or something right this is the Kamas Sutra thing when I was thinking about this today I recall that we had a copy of this in my house growing up and I was never quite sure why I wasn't sure if it was my mom's that maybe I should ask her and she would answer that or whether it was my grandpa because my grandpa was a little bit of like a he was a little bit of a [...] boy so it might have been his I don't know but we had it and I remember peing it as like a teenager or something right uh so there were definitely like books like this in the house there was like the Karmasutra and then like the old Su classic was like The Joy of Sex You know and you know reading those things it's more about again the enjoyment of sexuality uh you know so you know that's one thing but it's not quite the same as um as um doing sexuality for the purpose of like spirituality those aren't quite the same thing right yeah now I was interesting in you know reading Dr Nita he kind of talked about this thing of like as far as toban cult goes there was like a kind of understanding that these aren't quite the same thing and yet at the same time they're not fighting each other right you can have the karma Kamas Sutra enjoyment of sexuality and the sexual spirituality uh together and one of the people he referenced here it's a it's really kind of an interesting Tibetan character we might have to do some episode on him later on just characters in the spiritual World he's really kind of a fascinating guy named uh gendon trupal hope I'm doing that totally right but he's like he has a book that's sort of like a little bit Kamasutra a little bit Karma mudra kind of like integrated together definitely read that one I thought this is interesting you know he's trying to like bridge the gap between these things and you know Dr Nita and his book that were using kind of talks about this and he's kind of a wild rebellious character I have a soft spot for those kinds of people so I definitely like liked his whole backstory which we can tell another time and I kind of like reading his work and he definitely went around and talked to like he was doing funny stuff inbet he would go and talk to bunch of toat women like what do you think about sex maybe asking them things and probably a little bit maybe um a little bit more challenging the modesty of people or something but you know he did all these things and he's interesting character so he's a you know guy read his book and he's he's a curious cat uh or then he mentioned lamam who's kind of this really like another person I have a soft spot for because he's this really brilliant uh kind of commentator on uh the tantric tradition in the nigma you know there's these big schools of Tibetan Buddhism and one is the nigma and he's like really great for talking about how you experience reality as Bliss and things like that Lama meam and I was reading him a lot during my little Retreat that I came out of a couple of weeks ago right so lamaa has been on my mind so I was like I and he apparently wrote something like this too where he was like let's pull the K Sutra and the K mudra together and make it like a thing so I like that idea you know so that's sort of what Dr presents on it and some of my feelings about it I think maybe what so maybe the problem maybe have slept to say about this might be when people get these things confused yeah when the K Sutra thing becomes everything and you lose the idea that there's a spiritual part to this or something that might be the problem in America does that make sense to you or fit into somewhat you think about that yeah so I I'll I'll First share um How I Learned the How I Learned what I know about the practice of Kamasutra Kam from from what I learned Kamasutra was taught as the yogic meaning Yogi those who practice yoga not and I'm I don't mean like I don't know Core Power no offense to Core Power but like I don't I'm not talking about like Lululemon yoga I'm talking about yogis from back in the day right people who are trying to work towards Union right mind body all this kind of stuff fine that this was a school that that this was a a practice that was developed that it was the yogic approach to sex meaning the scientific approach to sex and what is the goal of sex pleasure Bliss right Union so this is sex yoga okay and so what do yogis do they try and break things down scientifically really to get to the core pieces of things and then put them then then reassemble them back together in in a system that's going to be more effective right or or higher effective with a higher rate of Effectiveness all right fine so you now have this practice of love making right this practice of sexuality of sexual Union on both the male and female side and the again the way in which I learned it is that it was primarily it was definitely taught to all of the debutant is the wrong word but we'll say the the Regal class of people yeah as a matter of their just education right however because it was a it really was kind of a patriarchy even at that time that the male practition the male kind of you know upper class if you will would take concubines right and have a herum of women but they weren't just going around picking CU they can have any woman they want right these are nobility yeah yeah that that they wanted women who were knowledgeable in pleasure and so then you had these schools who were teaching and now these were run by women they were teaching other women the practice of Kamasutra all right so that's how the techniques were developed all the techniques were developed like he doesn't take that attitude Dr NE and you don't hear that tale told that way in the Tibetan world that much so just out of the intellectual curiosity so did you get that through sort of more your yogic background training that version of it okay okay cool I just want to like get context because there's some kind of little distinction being drawn that like you might not be drawing as tight as some of these Tibetan folks are and there's nothing wrong with that people have different Slants on this story but okay interesting okay cool and so yeah so that was how that went right that was that was to maximize the pleasure of the prince or the D duke or whatever okay fine but then you had the pra then you had practitioners yogic practitioners who began to learn and practice themselves again what is the goal of yoga the goal of yoga is Union right or you know essentially the the the removal of the fluctuations of the Consciousness uh yoga CH which is from you know patang Sutra the goal of yoga is the calming of the fluctu a of your mind of your Consciousness but the goal of again sex is bliss is heightened States and so the practice of Kamasutra is that you and your partner a do not share beds you do not share beds you have a a room for engaging in this kind of thing or a place where you engage in your sexuality in and then you engage for your I think it's three days two nights three nights something like this and that's all for the month ah yeah yeah okay so you build up more like polarity and tension then then gets sort of expressed in this more intense period yes right and then you know what's funny I don't want to kill your flow but you know Esther Perell talks about that if you want to go back to our relationship episodes from last year and she says you need polarity between people to build up sexual energy and tension she kind of like it's interesting from a sort of a relationship point of view yeah so anyways just kind of hit me yeah this is the common uh this thing now is this idea of polarity is quite common now and it's all over the board as to how to do it and when to do it and who's doing it and whatever I've heard I haven't heard that many people estal talked about but you're hearing it from a lot more people yeah I've heard it from a number of different sources a lot of um like male M driven teachers you know teaching men in particular so anyway so you got these you got you now you're practitioners now people you you myself our listeners right or our Watchers audience whatever you want to call people who watch this okay so you then there there's two aspects to it there's the there's the leading up to it and then the actual practice to it and then the then that kind of After Effects right um leading up to it you are to make yourself as attractive as possible so you wear Absolutely Fresh color fresh pressed fresh nice fitting everything not you're dressed to the not you're dressed as as nice and sexy as you can be dressed you are smelling absolutely perfect right which again if you think back in the day that would require a lot you'd have to go to bath houses you'd have because not everybody has they you know hygiene wasn't as as much as is now so you're you're perfumed up and you're bathed up and all this and you then you will greet each other you will present offerings to each other again because this is your you're looking at the other person as this like person who is going to lead you to the other side the Bliss the Bliss side of life so they are your your Guru they are your dhini they are your consort they are your you know they're your female partner they have this idea in like the secret assembly Tantra where they're talking about uh practice with elaborations practice that's elaborate right and so you can do the elaborate version of these things which have a lot of positive aspects to them right and then uh you know part of it also is the idea like you're leading this as a person who's helping me realize this Bliss so you appreciate the partner right and then if you get to the Tantra Tantra part of this sometimes you're seeing them as an element of the divine right or you're seeing them as an aspect of like whatever goddess you think of right you know you kind of in your mind you you see that person through that filter right yeah yeah yeah so similar kind of a Vibe but okay yeah cool yeah interesting so you give them gifts right this is physical offering for the body you read them poetry right so you're supposed to write and read them I mean you're you know you're in love with this person so you're supposed to express the way you know so you have your aura your your I'm sorry your your uh fragrance by how you're smelling your physical Gifts of of offerings and then your offerings of the heart via your via your speech then you are supposed to come together and then you know kind of like hug Embrace kiss just like your your everything is is very much sensual you're you're you're heightening you're increasing the tension you you undress each other and then you are supposed to again according to the the discussion I got uh quote kiss every inch of their body with your mouth and tongue that's kind of like uh yeah that kind of uh is a good sexual technique very good sexual technique all the whole body the whole body yeah that's how it is yeah yeah everything um and then once you start and then that gets over feelings of like Purity and impurity too and those kinds of questions too right yes yeah you get over it uhuh yeah you're supposed to touch every part kiss every part plus it's kind of plus it's hot it's hot yeah go for it do it you know whatever man you know what I'm saying it'sot yeah yeah so okay so you have you have that part and then the the the next part is is that like it it is there are numerous techniques again according to my yoga teacher I don't know we we we don't do a lot of vulgar things here but we'll do a little bit it's not vulgar this is just description um so you know if this is enticing you then there's more but if you're turned off then turn it off because I'm going to continue um this is not mansplaining this is just xplaining okay yeah all right so um the male has the responsibility of making the female orgasm from the various places right so clitorally vaginally and then cervic cervically essentially and there's different and and so the Kamasutra like we see different sex positions they are they are there in order to connect in different ways but they are also to maybe more specifically elicit orgasm from the different places of the of of her sensory you know inputs right and you do them sequentially and they are bringing this person oh the the dude does not ejaculate until the very very very end that is the last thing that happens right yeah and I mean after the three days yeah yeah building up all kinds we could talk about the whole Seaman retention thing it's kind a weird question my teacher told me he's like he's like absolutely you are not coming do not or sorry orgasming you are not he goes I don't care care if you have to bite your arm the answer is no and and after so then you're doing this and then in between sessions you know because people going to have to take a rest you are to be in be in lovers embrace you know continue the continue the the the the the the moments from before you know and then after the you know how two or three days I don't remember exactly um then you are you know you kind of you you break you undo the the binds that were done right so you come you dress back together you you give them offer you know again thank them for the their time and things like this and if they're your if they're your your partner then they're your partner but you go back to your separate bedrooms um for sleeping at that point but not during that time and the reason is that like you want to be intermingled and the reason why it is that you spend time apart is the polarity but specifically it's your auras are not touching MH that you have time for you to be an integrated being do you know what I'm saying oh so you're kind of like like processing this in a more separate individual way and then you'll have the shared aspect of this transformation will happen then you go back to your own space to like process it through right yeah yeah outside the context of another outside the the context and confines shared with another human Okay interesting I haven't heard it that's true there's a thing about that right you're creating like a ritual space too this is a yes so it's kind of gets into like sex magic things in a certain way too right create a ritual space and now okay that ritual space is now dissolved we're dissolving that Mandola space and now we go back and we'll open that Mandela ritual space again yeah when we do this again and my my teacher said he is had you know he has had some students some of his like couple yoga couples over the years who have practiced this because he's more teaching Karma mudra but people are interested in Comm who have partners and interested in doing this interested in Kamas Sutra so he took the last two hours of The Last Retreat we had together he's like okay we have two hours we can add extra practice or we can do lecture on Kamasutra who wants what he said okay raise your hand if you want you know practice nobody said their hand nothing who wants karma sutra everybody was like he's like okay fine and I don't know sort of tangent but funny that afternoon before we went back to practi before he went back to lecture and practice and everything I said you know I've heard I've heard this my teacher say many things but I've never heard him talk about his father and I've never heard him talk about I've never heard him say the word penis uhuh he said the word penis a lot that afternoon and any the story about his father um so the last thing that I'll say about this is that he said that the the couple couples that he has seen who've done this right people yoga yoga practitioners people who Le lead the life of th of who are who whose life is in support of their practice and their practice is being supported by their life um the the women in particular 10 to 14 days of absolute Bliss he's like you could feel the the joy and the the like happiness and the sense of satisfaction radiating from their bodies he's like and he's like it it did it was it was he's like he said it was sort of not hard for him to believe but almost unbelievable that they were doing this as regularly as they you know for as many months along as they were and they just kept the experience kept getting they kept up they kept up they kept up with the practice they kept it going yeah and then it just it continued to get better and better and he's like these people were in they were just in such states of bliss afterwards that was their pre you know of course they still did yoga and medit they did all those kinds of things but this was their practice and so I think in a in a larger so that's Kamasutra in but in a larger in a larger scale thing what what he tries to bring forth and I think we didn't discuss this but for me part of this is making having an intentional practice of bliss in your life yeah yeah yeah do you know what I'm saying and however that is however you're drawn to it you are making your own sense of bliss of Happiness of pleasure a priority a prior a daily priority even if you're not even if you practicing Kamasutra in the way that I just mentioned you're preparing for those three days of of ecstasy coming up in a few months you're thinking in a few weeks you're buying gifts you're writing poetry you're you know collecting whatever new clothes whatever it is you know what I'm saying you're you're preparing for those kinds of states and I think it's really really important to find pleasure in as many things as possible it's like yeah there's so much like in that I don't know if I've heard uh I know if I've heard the common suure described in all of that way but I and I'd be curious like if you know his take on it is really interesting so yeah you know um but the whole idea that like in my own experience of this I would say you know um first started doing Zen like I said last episode then got into doing sort of things that were more the Dos aspects of working with the sexual energies and it was like the Bliss just goes whoosh right and then you start to realize profound things about that right yeah a personal level of happiness but also like the Deep stuff we were talking about before which is like the world is a big container of bliss if you can get to that space of experiencing it that way right and then you know if you make if you make that that element of shared sexuality so deep you know and you build up to that there'll be all of that anticipation expectation all and then the residual Bliss from the previous sessions of it right and then you have that experience and then it will keep going deeper and carry out that's some you know like it's hard to get those practices to always work perfect like that but if you've done some things like that it is kind of amazing you know that you can find those Blissful spaces in that way right yeah so I suppose the Zen thing and the DS thing brought some of that and then you know from my uh kind of teacher uh Master Wong you know my TCM teacher and she young Mentor he was talking about that just that Bliss and happiness that's to pervade your life right so I know these things sort of start to integrate for me in this way that probably we all have our own stories of you know how these different messages and pieces get put together for us right yeah but very much so true and then I suppose like the daily practice would be if you work with your sexual energies with another person like that in this very intense way then that knowledge and awareness of that will carry out and then your practices when you're not in the intimacy with that person will get more profound right and you'll still be doing your your solo meditative practices that tap into those sexual feelings and those sexual energies and carry you through right okay very cool yeah very cool thanks for sharing all that Daniel yeah we've been meaning to do this for a bit and I knew there was like you know like you had that to share I wasn't sure it was going to be so you know very cool and thanks for sharing all of that yeah um it's interesting to watch Grown you know older man who was a monk celibate Monk draw positions draw stick figures you know I'm used to I'm used to seeing him drawing stick figures for yoga but now he's drawing like two stick figures like having sex with each other you know like we'll have to probably do like the da stuff of this too we haven't done that probably will the da like sexual alchemical practic yeah yeah but they have like their own kind of like sexual like sexual manuals for like not for people who are being like necessarily the most serious like they're more Kamasutra part you know yeah which is just for like sexual enjoyment sexual health and so on but they had the whole idea that there's like these different sexual positions that are good for the different Chinese acupuncture channels you have this position it's good for this one and you have this position it's good for another one and it's Chinese stuff so it's always named like in these really funny ways like you know a woman L works a loom or monkey like climbs a tree or whatever the [...] it is you know like is that really what that looks like I'm not really sure but you know you're like wheelbarrow I see that that one I I definitely see the wheelbarrow for sure yeah yeah yeah anyways it's it's really they have these like Chinese names that are always after some you know bizarre imagery that you're not quite sure if it makes any sense um all right okay cool so you know we'll probably do some of that stuff too in the offing you know since we've gotten into the subject matter might as well do it yeah um okay misconcep C four which might be the last one we do today uh because there's a lot to say about it so it really you know he brings up the issue of like in doing Karma mudra you know do you have to have a lot of sexual partners do you have to have one sexual partner like what's the question of like sexual partners that comes up in this or even talking about sexual partners like spiritual Partners maybe so kind of have a deep question right um I think one of the things he's trying to get to from sort of the Tibetan perspective on this is that people might think well maybe I'm supposed to have all kinds of different partners and maybe I don't want to do that and so the answer is you don't have to do that right and um and then he also gets into the question of like problems and a potential sexual abuse around that you know that can be a problem right and we've already talked about this issue a couple of times we did it when we talked about the episodes of teachers and things like this so um you know he tries to be honest about this and he says well you know if you get anyone who's trying to say that they're they have to be your sexual partner because it's their karma mudra and they're putting pressure obviously that's bad right whoever that person is you know and I think you know in these circles I think you know you do know people who found themselves in situations that you know are not good around this right I've talked with people about this who felt these kinds of pressures and obviously that's pathological so he addresses that but the bigger thing I thought was you know like this is important to say we've talked about it before the other part of this though that gets brought up is it's really not a question of like number of Partners it's a question of like fit between the partners and he talks about that a lot which I think is you know a deep and very important subject matter so I think on the one hand it's like it's Tibetan culture so you know it's not a monogamous culture you don't have to have one partner in this cultural setting everyone canide what they think about that for themselves but in a in a in a tantric culture you tend not to be as monogamous because there's this idea that you can have contact with other people and it's okay okay so it's not a Judea Christian culture but on the other hand you don't have to feel there's a pressure to have lots of Partners either the most important thing of all of this is kind of the fit between the partners right and um you know that's the kind of the deeper question in this I was reminded of a couple things about this you know one of the things I first read about this which was very interesting for me was a book by someone named Miranda Shaw she's a you know academic PhD person who did her research on uh you know female teachers and fale practitioners historically right and she was talking about the book's called passionate Enlightenment and maybe we'll do a conversation about just that one at some point because it's kind of cool to do it we can just do a little quick overview on it but her point was that sometimes think and you know Dr Nita talks about this too the guy who wrote the introduction to Dr Nita's book talks about this as well there can be this idea that female Partners weren't held to be equal or something almost like you were talking about the K Sutra thing right you know you might have nobility and they there's a power Dynamic that's toxic or something right and she was saying no it really is a lot of female teachers within this Traditions right that are the ones who are passing things on and that raises the question of like you know who are your partners and then how do you start thinking about someone who would be an appropriate or good or bad partner for you to share something like this with so okay I think we're building to that let me throw it back to you Daniel first before we kind of give what sort of talked about what kind of qualities are good in Partners but I thought let's go back to the whole issue because you might have a lot of stuff you want to say about this so let me throw it to you first you're so sexual partners and your your own spiritual practice right yeah yeah I don't know there's so much to say and but you know we've we've also said it we've also said a lot about it over the last year and a half realistically about relationship structure societal acceptance um consent um personal preferences traditional versus non-traditional relationships you know like whether sex is involved or not right um yeah emotional intimacy physical intimacy like you know all of these things become the lines become blurred when you start to take off the lens of the structure of Western society that we have and it's just very interesting because some people prefer the singular partner they do prefer it that's their preference yeah yeah yeah you know uh we talked about like uh exclusive and uniqueness right way back when with Esther perel's view of this thing and I thought that was a really good way of breaking it down and I feel like that goes here as well you know so you can have people in your life that serve as different roles that serve in different roles you know for you but ultimately um I think it's a personal I think it comes down to personal choice and sometimes fits and if you know in into society's rules already and sometimes it doesn't and if it doesn't then you'll have to find a different community that holds that view the same as yours so you can operate naturally and authentically as yourself within that Community right um the difficult part is and this is in every community and does even in the acupuncture world and Eric you know you you still you know teach for various schools uh I just do something for a little bit because I'm slightly curious and then I go ah it's too much responsibility I don't want to do that um you know yeah but amongst many communities regardless of how they look at things spirituality is not a common thread even amongst like alternative kind of uh educational processes or Pathways like acupuncture or you know massage or something like it it's it's slightly more prevalent but it's not like the overwhelming you know top topic of discussion yeah I could say like and I think he'd be fine with us sharing this but I know one of our anthropologists on uh on retainer or on call is Ryan Davenport right along with Mary K Ryan and uh he was really pointing out that very strongly within like the alternative medicine communities that for the most part people really aren't that spiritual and I think he we've had conversations about this and I think he's even tougher on that point than I am you know he's quite like nah you that was always my experience about this as someone who has probably in his own way a very high standard about that so we've had conversations about that too yeah yeah I mean so that's my point is that like that sexual partners and your own spiritual practice of course if you could blend those two things together that's then that's the amaz that's that's very good very good maybe I'll double back and kind of say what they say in the traditional things and maybe we'll work our way into some of these other questions as we go sure so um from sort of a traditional point of view there's this and I you know I had this Retreat over the break and so I was going back and looking at some of the old tantas some of the stuff I was talking about before you know uh not so much based on sexuality per se but how do you experience the world as Bliss meditatively and some of them it was like you know one of the particular tantas I was looking at does have that more sexual conversation to it so I was kind of flitting around in my interest uh it was a tale there there's the secret assembly in the secret Essence the guya Garba and the guya samaja and that so my retreat was sort of a tale of two guas or something and I was kind of going through that and that was the retreat so um the the non-meditative part the part where I was studying and learning which was pretty good so anyways they kind of give this opinion where they kind of go it's nice to have someone who has tantric initiation if possible that's a cool thing they have right right you know because then you sort of share a spiritual bond especially if those are shared initiations that's kind of a bond between people right it's kind of like I think in the tantric world how you say that people develop kind of a s connection to one another yeah communal a communal Bond yeah and they're brought together for like karmic reasons it's you know not a coinky dink when you end up in the same initiation with somebody right there's some connection that's there drawing people together right so it creates kind of a bond between people and then they talk about you know it's an interesting thing because you can get people who have initiation of things but they're still not that into it and I think that happens like in the west I think that happens in like a place like Tibet too I'm sure yeah anywhere you do the thing and it's kind of like a cool thing you did you know and then but you're not that interested so obviously the more passion and interest people have in this the more you're going to get a connection with a partner you're gonna be able to share more with right because you're going to share that passion and interest and connection around this thing right and then they talk about kind of education meaning you know the person wants to learn the person wants to learn spiritually they want to learn more about you know the different parts of spirituality maybe they have specific interest in Bliss and yogas around Bliss and things like that right so they're trying to learn they're trying to develop themselves right and then the other thing I talk about is freedom like kind of a love for freedom and then also probably a love they say interesting they say kind of a freedom from pettiness right you don't want to have like Petty qualities in you you want to have partners that like don't have Petty aspects because those are all always would be a problem so it's kind of an interesting word to choose and they mean a couple of things from that they mean you don't want people who are un comfortable with sexuality for example as a thing and or you don't want people who are really overburdened with like taboos and they use the word taboo Ryan Davenport and I have talked about maybe him coming on and the three of us talking about the anthropology of taboo right but you want to have people who are free of like confining notion of taboo you know and there sometimes you know we're not talking about this exactly now but sometimes in the tantas OR in some of these spiritual stories like I like the roomy stories where they challenge the taboos you know right because it frees the person up more you know to be more psychos spiritually free so they mentioned things like prudery and taboo which are kind of interesting and then like the claas you want to have kind of minimalized too right so the person isn't dominated so much by like negative emotions right as much as possible some of those things are ones that are related back to some of the things you were talking about Danielle you know jealousy and possessiveness are such tough questions socioculturally or in our culture too you know those are deep questions and I was trying to talk about that a few the Tantra got us was really edgy on this point and I was trying to like Channel a little bit but you know those would be examples of claas but also you know um unhealthy attitudes towards attachment you know um the desire to overcome ignorances and you know become you know have more profound visions of things so they kind of had this really interesting thing of like going through these things and um and kind of trying to say well this is sort of like qualities in people that you'd be look whatever role they're going to have in your life these are the people that you want to add in these are probably the people you want in your life just anyways to be honest on some level of your spiritual person does that make sense what I'm saying there too Daniel yeah to you yeah yeah you know so they have this kind of list it's interesting so they talk about you know these kinds of things competitiveness isn't a good quality either you know so that's kind of like maybe the qualification aspect of that that you get in the tantric literature these kinds of things that they'll lay out right um again the CLA are really interesting because they relate back to the energies of the system so if you have a lot of like ignorance you know um you're not seeking wisdom you're not seeking to transform your understanding and knowledge then you have problems with your Earth Energy and that's going to create problems in the whole system right if you have problems of like possessiveness it's going to create problems with the water energies if you have problems with like attachment and ways where you can't manage the emotions of attachment while you're going have problems with the fire energies if you have problems of jealousy and envy you're G have problems with the chi energies or The Prana is going to be have a problem you know if you have problems with anger it's just not good for Consciousness overall so we kind of done these claes and these Aggregates before but you know it makes sense in the context of really trying to build a bond with someone emotionally but also like physically sexually you don't want to have as many of these claes dominating people right it's not even good energetically right on some level so I think that's a way of talking about it too and then what Dr Nita does as well is he just kind of gets to the point that I think certainly I find really important I think you do too which is the idea that sometimes there's just special bonds between people you know there's something in the two people that they're bonded in some way you know some like if you're doing Tibetan stuff you'd say the uniqueness of the karma between those two beings is really powerful right and that can manifest in not only like people's you feel bonded in like oh we have similar aspirations we have similar interests we have similar passions you know you can feel that connection with another person in that way right that will unite your your spirits right your Shen but also the idea that like when it really gets powerful for two people and he does mention which I think a lot of us have had these experiences there's it's almost like the the inner enject of the two people resonate in some powerful way right we're gonna talk later on about the idea of like the vajra body this is the way in Buddhist Tantra they talk about the shakras and the channels around the chakras and things you know and they say that those energies and those they use the word drops interesting phrase llama Glenn sometimes llama Glenn melon will sometimes compare those to like neurotransmitters and hormones and things the equivalent in the push push it till later yeah yeah well we'll talk about that deep later but that's not the point the point is that like the point is that these aspects of who you are will resonate with this other person yes right yeah so you know this idea that your your energies within who you are the things that make you up will resonate with this other person and they talk about these experiences you know the feeling resonant with another person and also feel feeling like which a lot of us have had the feeling you can even feel that person from afar right you know just very naturally you're your being in the aspects energetically that make up your being will very naturally feel that other person yeah right and it's a powerful experience you know so I to me what I found really kind of profound in that was the idea that you're getting to um that bond between people that is kind of special you know and those more than like even how you number of Partners or you know these other questions this is kind of like the core question on some level right do you have a resonant thing with another person he kind of tells this interesting anecdote in the Dr nid in the book where he's basically saying there one of the people who was I think one of his teachers and he said well you know this teacher of Dr neidas said something like if I'm honest yeah I've had different Karma mudra part but if I'm really honest about it for the most part it doesn't work as well in a lot of these situations because you need to have something really resonant with another person for it to work you know and I think that's really important for us to say here too it's not just a question of like you know like just having sex or something right it's a question of finding someone else that you can get resonate in the space with and then that's what's going to make it powerful you know yeah yeah yeah well I think there's a lot more to say about this but maybe we'll cut it here I think so and pick up on it yeah and then on a ending on an interesting note to be continued yeah what is it that makes people resonant with one another and then you know how can you start thinking about how to do this practically in your life I think is maybe the continuation of it yeah I think it's perfect yeah deep okay cool Daniel awesome well yeah thanks thanks for sharing all the stuff from your teacher too that was yeah yeah this is a fun this is a fun subject matter so uh you know yeah yeah it's good it's very good to be continued as always always Eric thank you so much for uh you know riding the ship uh to our audience thanks for tuning in you know whether you're watching on the whatever platform you're on or listening uh we appreciate your attention your uh you know your time and your effort to to listen to what we're having to say and we know we really do genuinely hope that it has a positive impact on your life um if you want to you know share the love please you know send us an email at jand Tantra gmail.com uh you can hit us up on the Instagram at the Jin and Tantra podcast or if you're watching on the YouTube you know feel free to uh comment even like subscribe do all the things and share our work definitely uh we appreciate it and you know anytime anybody subscribes it's free it helps us out in the algorithm you know it just tries to get our work out a little bit further uh that it already has the hundreds of thousands of people who you know take consume this these products that we creating anyways uh yeah thank you for tuning in you know as they say uh from my mouth to God's ears but you know I don't know if he can hear or whatever but maybe he might or she or they or them or cake or whatever it is anyways uh for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]