mythology and tears knows also like her spirituality with a Twist okay if you've been following along the last few episodes we are trying to do a completely crazy thing we are trying to talk about this idea of the three kayas or the three bodies of a Buddha or the three levels of Enlightenment or aspects of enlightenment it's this fundamental idea in the uh Buddhist world for sure it's a fundamental spiritual idea and it's crazy that it's like really ridiculously hard to talk about and as we kind of mentioned before this is one of our ideas and having on Bob Thurman the great Bobby T to talk about this and it's such a complicated subject that you like ask the question and then 45 minutes later Thurman's still talking what's happening because it's so complicated and he's trying his best so uh but anyways we do not shy away from the deep end of the pool at GNT we try to do our best with this so we're going to try to do our best here too um we got here really by wanting to talk about what enlightenment means you know acknowledging that this means different things to different people yeah and um but it can really mean this kind of like Enlightenment state um so that's what we've been trying to talk about and I also occurred to me Daniel to just to point out that it's another way of looking at like looking at reality or it's another way of how reality can be looked at yeah we definitely have done episodes where we've talked about shinyata and the illusory nature of things so we've done episodes on that subject matter right and uh how the world around it and then in some ways is fundamentally illusory and yeah we can do that too because that's not just like a Buddhist idea or an Eastern idea you know uh I was thinking about like across the hall in the shower curtain of wisdom the bathroom across the hall I have the shamanic quote about that Ayahuasca goes through and one of the main things you learn is that you learn to lose their nature the illusory nature of the world around you or you seem to be real and we've done episodes on the physics aspect of that too you know Einstein and the optical delusion right that the world exists as we the world exists as we actually think we think we see it on a daily basis or something which is not true so we've done illusory stop so that one we did and so and the way it occurred to me like really in the midst of the other real major way of looking at things you know home basing it out through a Buddhist point of view but you know to people just to think this way obviously and this goes back to India and Asia all over the place where you can look at like uh you know this idea that reality exists on these multiple levels of subtleness or something like that that's kind of like the take-home idea right you can have like the more gross level physical things around you right that you can kind of perceive on the body level and then you can get to sort of like an in-between subtle level where things are more energetic right and then you can see things from this very subtle point of view of like mind or Spirit or Consciousness or something like that you know and it like exists on these three levels and again it's like a just a primary idea and we've been I think to my mind we've been trying to take our time to talk our way through this because it's just like the other real one of the other really big Ideas right and we wanted to spend some time really kicking it around right yeah and it applies to like an individual person we have our physical body we have the more subtle energetic aspects of us and we have our mind and our spirit you know our Shen if you want to be Chinese medicine about this our Buddha nature um and then we also have like that and the reality around us things exist kind of physically but then things have these energetic levels and maybe even they have this more subtle kind of spiritual level behind everything too so anyways we've been trying to do this and we've been kind of like okay we're working on it uh and I don't know it felt to me at this point that we can at least say what we did a little bit so we looked at this idea of the killing of the Buddha concept right the whole episode on that which was the idea like don't get fooled by the physical stuff around you make sure you go back to the deeper parts of things you know the Buddha thing being symbolic of like uh the physical stuff around you that could like run away with your mind right go to the deeper source and that's the idea that that's what dharmakaya means this idea of this reality body or truth body or something like that right when you go to like the formless pervasive Blissful level of reality all around you right uh and then you know you're not you recognize that and then you can kind of see the other parts the energetic manifestations and the more physical manifestations of things but you also kind of know that there's this other part there so we did that and then we did the part where we were talking about the sixth grade gen zen master uh Hui Nang sometimes called the sixth patriarch patriarch maybe a dated word right so maybe we'll start to think while going calling him the great great Master of xender the great sixth great zen master the sixth person in line and uh I thought that was a cool episode from my point of view because I learned a lot thinking about it yeah he kind of said this idea could be really abstract but if you go back to the deeper source of who you are you're tapping into your Dharma Kaya person when you look at the world around you and how you experience it what's manifesting around you then that's kind of your pneumonicaiah part of Who You Are and then when you kind of try to generate internal thoughts that are positive love compassion for other people you know these kind of like uh more positive states of Mind well that's sort of your enjoyment body or some bogakaya right I thought that's that thought was really cool because it kind of talks about this really abstract idea but he tries to ground it in something that you can kind of do within yourself in the very immediate way so I thought that was cool for me I hadn't really thought I had thought about it but I hadn't you know when you tried to put something in words you think about it deeper right yeah which is like how this podcast helps us right yeah yeah um all right so um I don't know anything else you want to say about any of those you know you had reactions to doing those episodes what did you think of doing those yeah I mean it's all it's all great and even if you even if you're familiar with it every time you hear it something else comes out yeah yeah or you can re-grasp something that you might have forgot or something that you know it's it just it just sinks a little bit different every time you you hear it again and again and again and again and then time goes on you don't you know you're not it's not we I mean I think about this stuff on a regular basis I'm sure as do you but I'm not like always deeply contemplating you know because we have regular lives and you know things like this but like you can lose it in the reality of your everyday life and that's known a known problem yeah but then moments when you're practicing and then in your everyday life you kind of like lose the thread for those moments right yeah but then when you you know make the effort we make the effort to to prepare the stuff to have the conversation to to you know and then it's it's live right like not only are we recording it live but the conversations are live picking in you know back and forth and whatnot and then hearing from people you know the the questions or the you know the things that they're wrestling with or just the hey thank you for bringing this to my attention it then has a different kind of meaning because now you're not just thinking about it for yourself you're then passing the torch forward to other people you know we've definitely talked about this before but you know doing and having these kinds of conversation doing this and having these kinds of conversations further cement those things even though they're already kind of like deep parts of Who We Are they can never be deep enough you know it could never really be to the point where like you said it and forget it it's effort it's work it always can be this way because you know I mean we're both we meditative kind of guys who live lives of our own choosing fortunately right yeah but it doesn't mean that I can't easily I couldn't easily get caught up in my bill paying and working and making money and trying to survive dramas of everyday life right yeah and just put this stuff I don't have time for that I had a guy that I met with the other night I was at a at an event and he goes you know I never forgot when you did this talk from my company that you know you said start the day with some deep breathing and just relax and Center yourself he goes and I do that every day and I said oh so are you going to start meditating he's like when I retire then I'll have time in five years I'm gonna have time I said oh that's a pretty big assumption he goes what that I'm going to retire I said no that you're going to be alive he's like oh wow and I was like well it is isn't it he goes yeah I said okay so you could die tomorrow I'll start today you know yeah yeah that's like first point that's first point in the lamrem right stages of the path they count because yeah yeah so and because of you know because of conversations like that it just it reminds me of of these kinds of things that we're doing as as passing it forward so whether this is your first time hearing this or your 10th time listening to us or you're listening to this for the third time still trying to figure out what the [...] we're talking about you know um the struggle is for everybody you know but you will get it I promise you don't get it hopefully it's a it's a funny thing and we've referenced it in episodes here and there but I can go back and look at like notebooks that I have from like Galaxy and then Arbor thank you rinpochet and uh you have those moments where you're like I wrote that [...] sentenced out six years ago I obviously stood enough to write that sentence down in that notebook six years ago why the [...] do I keep forgetting this thing yeah so funny being a human being yeah all right whatever we do our best all of us we're trying okay we're trying our best A for effort yeah yeah uh yeah we'll try to come up with what the thing would be for the D for the results but okay um but we do our best we do our best that's for sure all right so so in that we were really talking about like high and low versions of talking about this subject matter because the sixth zen master Hui Nang is trying to talk in a very practical level to people you know right he's kind of reading the room probably too or the text is reading the room whether this person existed or not you know right right but you know he's on his platform for the platforms which are it's called the platforms so he's reading the room from the platform and uh he said okay let me give something practical to these folks right here's a very concrete way you can kind of see and work on these different aspects of who you are because these are aspects of who you are right so if you kind of like keep your mind on the big formless part you're going to be working on that aspect of Who You Are if you keep aware of how the physical world is manifesting around you you're involved in the creation of that that's part of who you are and then when you generate these positive aspects inside yourself that's part of who you are too and this will eventually lead to you know the achieving of these lightning enlightened qualities all right so he gets it real practical and then you have versions that are really big and uh I wanted to make sure that we did a really big one so uh you know before uh we went on you know now you and I agreed on this before we went on to talk about the Dalai Lama which we want to do we want to do one more little thing with this right which was to talk about this idea of real high enlightenment and I'm interested in this episode you know again jotted down my notes from my side you kind of like what you want to talk about from your side this is a hell of a subject matter Eric if if you know for just a several hundred thousand listeners that we have well real quick we're talking about this kunjid galpo or the Supreme Source oh that's what we're going to talk about yeah yeah yes okay this guy right here that book yeah and and one of the few books that both you and I have copies of you know uh like uh you know dual camera version so that's I I find this to be interesting right if you're listening to this and you would care to share I would abs and I'm being very genuine right now I would love to hear what your view on what you think Enlightenment is right so anybody who's listening to this please email us at gin and Tantra gmail.com it's probably the most easiest way to get a hold of us in the long form sense you could certainly do a uh you know uh DM on Instagram at gin and Tantra but you know this is probably the best way and it just it just out of just curiosity hey you know the dog dog yeah so anyways that that's my it's naturally part of Enlightenment too yeah that's right the dog wants its Buddha nature explored that's the first that's the koan does a dog have a food in nature the dog just answered yes yeah it's like yeah I want to explain what I think Enlightenment is to me that I was trying to communicate it to us the answer is keep digging yeah in the carpet it's down there somewhere the Supreme Source that's right very wise you know polishing a mirror as we talked about last episode right stick it in the all right yeah so yeah I want to hear that too and yeah again with full acknowledgment it means different things with different people right it's natural but it would right people have different ways of seeing things yeah okay so for this real high idea of yeah I got the order you were doing this we were talking about this idea of the Supreme source uh and we haven't done too much on this kind of thing before it's a little bit different for us so this is the thing goes that goes back to this we'll do a little context right we always do a little context and then we'll try to tell a tale yeah so um this goes back to this thing called the zolk trend tradition means something like great Perfection yeah and um as we go through what this text is saying what this Tantra is saying you'll have a kind of a sense of what they mean by great Perfection okay as far as like the schools of Tibetan Buddhism there's four major ones one is the nigma school which is sometimes called like the old school and uh for me I like I had my first empowerment from Enigma uh teacher you know very grateful for him and um and uh so there's some connection I have to this in some way or another you know so I feel something about this a really interesting conversation with Gala karimpichay about this you know it's one of the ones he's just such a kind person and he would listen to you with such respect so I was kind of asking him about this thing you know something about how you know the Zog check thing is I think something like that too I think I was asking something a little bit more technical but it boiled down to like a joke checkpoint so there's these four schools of Tibetan Buddhism and you know people are going to talk about things in slightly different ways and Gala krippachay said oh he had a thought for a moment and then he said yeah for you you have something going on like this like he kind of like did his like feeling of who I was and he took a moment and he said yeah for you have something like this and he said you know the Dalai Lama has that too and I was like yeah I always have really admired that and the Dalai Lama you know that he has this incredible openness to different strains of thought you know and sometimes even with you know even though he's the head of like the whole thing it's not like everyone's always going to like that you know just because the person is that is the head of the whole thing thinks some way doesn't mean everybody else agrees with him you know in their hearts so I think it was this interesting conversation so I have something going on with this this speaks to me personally you know there's something about this I love I love I love these traditions we talk about I mean I really love them yeah it's hard to explain how much I love them hopefully the love comes through because I really love this stuff but yeah this is something like I do feel something close I want to do something that's kind of within this framework and then you know I also love the stuff from the school of The Dalai Lama too so anyways we'll kick this around but that's kind of my part of my personal story around this yeah and it was like probably one of my more meaningful conversations with gallery you know like when you talk with the teacher about something like that and they kind of are like okay that's cool you feel like oh great you know you feel kind of a little bit Vindicated right and how you feel about things and it was probably like that with the Dalai Lama too and then they were talking with a Dalai Lama in my life obviously if I read his works and you're like yeah he's supportive of this kind of way of thinking so yeah all right so our we like to tell a story so the story on this one uh last episode we told the story of the sixth Zen master Hui Nang um uh so this is the story of Padma Samba and I we won't have the long version we'll tell the short version but he is very famous yeah person within the certainly the Himalayan Buddhist world right the tantric Buddhist world this is a famous cat um so the name itself means Lotus born and then there's this sort of like is this a person or not who knows right we're back to that place again but in terms of the stories of his birth sometimes there are these kind of stories of like symbolic mystical verse and he would be born out of like a lotus probably out of the lake of wisdom or something like that of course although this is really important thing in Buddhism because it symbolizes the idea you can have something that can grow in the mud but then flower out on the top right so Enlightenment can come out of the world and even though the world might be a muddy messy place Enlightenment grows within that you know that's the lotus it also gets associated with like uh Bliss right they can be associated with the combination of wisdom and Bliss and it's probably a feminine image so it could be like thinking about things kind of like a womb or something like that also the symbol for like the fire phase you know so anyways it has a lot of different meanings to it and so that's one kind of story of his birth but other times he's considered to be born from a queen from some loyal Royal lineage and that happens a lot in Old Buddhist stories so in any case he goes on to become this great tantric master and I think if you just look like uh in a cursory way which is what I did with this you don't get a lot of tales about how he achieves this really you know but he becomes this great Master but the real famous story about him is that he's the person who comes into Tibet um there's uh already the king of Tibet has indicted Buddhist Scholars and teachers to come up and they're trying to propagate Buddhism in Tibet and uh the idea is that there's all these negative forces and uh uh demons and Devils that are up there in the Tibetan mountains that are stopping this from happening so Papas comes in is sort of not likely that the great tantric Master but sort of like the shaman who comes in to like purify the space to allow new ideas to grow or something like that so this is like the real famous story you know uh we had on the show guy Newland and he just uh talks about this a little bit I don't think he talked about in our podcast episodes with it I want to have him back at some point too because yeah I I love him he's really funny and really insightful and very articulate a lot of great stuff to say but um anyways he kind of has his whole thing like what did that exactly look like was he just there with his staff like walking through the mountains smiting things like you know but anyways that's the tale right that he goes and he does this and he maybe even just by his presence being there and maybe by doing rituals or whatever he's doing he's like clearing a path so that's like one of the real famous stories I think the other really famous part about his life for sure is that he's supposed to have these five consorts so that's kind of the tantric side of the tale right he has these consorts one of them is really super famous which is this princess yesterday uh Sagal um uh and so knowledge like empress um and so she's considered to be you know one of these consorts and um and uh you know uh it's very interesting uh for yessi sogal because she has this um kind of a female figure you know a female Enlightenment figure which is a big deal obviously so that gets back to some of the kind of interesting Parts in this culture you know as I was putting this together I would never want to say that like this isn't like us that there isn't a sexist aspect to like Tibetan culture that's obviously not true right right um but on the other hand you do get these female Enlightenment figures which is kind of awesome so you know that kind of like fills in a different space and she's very famous and there's like biographies written of uh yeshi sogal and uh and uh I actually have it on the Shelf I've never like read a cover to cover but you know uh she's a very important figure you know very important Enlightenment figure right um and then there's this the whole idea that there's these five consorts and that's kind of an interesting thing too because it's obviously written in kind of a symbolic way they're seen as being from different parts of you know that part of the world and when you put the parts that they're kind of uh on the map that they're supposed to be from it looks like it creates a little mandala shape you know it looks like it's a little suspicious that they would be coincidentally from those places so in some level this is written as being a little bit symbolic of the idea that they're all different aspects of the feminine Divinity or of the goddess or of the tantric goddess especially probably bajr yogini and so they represent like the five wisdom aspects of Baja yogini or something like that so there's a tantric symbolism in the story too going back to these uh you know female figures which is kind of nice right and uh so there's not only just the fellas but the ladies are involved and like uh like uh perpetuating this tradition and creating this tradition which is good right certainly for us it's like 21st century people are like a good you get female figures who are there doing their thing too and that's awesome um and then this is supposed to spread all throughout the Himalayas too so there's references to Pablo Samba but kind of like everywhere right as far as I understand it Bhutan and Nepal one of the conference I think is supposed to come from Nepal so he has this sort of influence over this whole region and it's important figure for everyone there especially as it comes down to this idea what they call the term of tradition which has come up a little bit in some of our podcasts this is the idea that pamasaba secretly left all of these spiritual texts to be found by people later on you know um and whether they are considered to be magic eliminations that appear in the right moment or whether they're supposed to be like kind of physically there hidden away for someone to stumble across you know I don't know but in any case it's kind of an interesting idea you know and the whole it gets us something I think you like Daniel that the teaching will appear at the right time or something it'll pop out right yeah now whether or not you just write a book and say probably wrote it oh it's impossible as a historian right but anyways it's an interesting part of tradition and uh it's cool you know it's very cool so uh all right so that's a little bit on Papa Samba but anything else you want to say about him no what do you think of the shamanic aspect it's interesting I like that part of this too yeah I mean well I mean a lot of the Tibetan stuff is shamanic I mean it's based on shamanic practice I mean it's yeah yeah all of this is really to be honest I mean how the lines between these things really blur and so correct that's the point of our show we drink some Gin and Tantra you get drunk enough you can't see the lines between things anymore yeah and I think that like the people who or the beings who you know pass forth different practices like they came from somewhere you know they were contacted by some being or some you know in some deep Visionary State and were you know learn how to do something or we're told how to do something and that's like the that's the whole like kind of like shamanic Crux is like divine uh interaction for the individual right you know and then to be able to take that and and do something with it uh is the manifestation into reality as opposed to just some kind of like Vision that you have in a dream or you know on your meditation cushion you know or during a psychedelic trip or something like that the the kind of bringing forth from the pre-manifest into the shared reality you know so uh all of these things have a a very you know interesting and particular place in my heart and mind as this kind of practitioner because it gives me I don't know I'd say like like a good kind of pat on the back kind of feeling that you can you can take something or or absorb something and learn something you know and practice it yourself but then totally be justified and encouraged to see how it works for you and how it is that you might have your own sort of like Twist on it or your own experience with it you know to not just to make it your own and some kind of like American ideology you're gonna flip it into something else repackage it and sell it you know no not like that you know but to actually like make it work with your own mind your own personality your own genetics your own teachings your own ways of being so that it can actually benefit you towards your own betterment in your own life that's that's like that's like the real practical application of it and that company other people too yeah yeah that's kind of funny because when you really take a step back there's like multiple levels that are potentially empowering in this you can see things is like a manifestation of your own inner psychospiritual qualities right so you can own them as your own so that's empowering right to say yeah you have the ability to do this right on the other hand you can see that you can make connections with spiritual sources outside of yourself so that's empowering right and you can do that you don't have to have someone else do it you can do it right right like uh you don't just need like a priest to do it or something you can do it yeah and then the other part is you're also free to like interpret those things in the way that makes sense to you right it's been a subject matter over and over again in some of these recent episodes right yeah you get to interpret your vision for yourself yeah and you can always learn more and like change your interpretation as you go and all that it's all kind of empowering yeah that's what we're trying to do at least yeah how we think about it that's become clearer and clearer we've done these episodes too you know over these few years it's been like yeah this is very kind of an empowering thing if you frame it in the right way it's very empowering on another personal individual level right yeah yeah I guess okay I don't know where this exactly fits in these notes but I wanted to say this too and we can see what you think about this Daniel but it was occurring to be like pre-episode this stuff also kind of depends on the idea that you see something Beyond you just your limited physical body just you have to see something that there's more to you than that right right which is a hard sell in this culture it's like American culture and I don't know other people live maybe live in the listening in other places can let us know from their own experience but it's hard here right it's hard to get well it's not just America it's not just American it's yeah no it's a it's a this whole way of looking at the world is it like post enlightenment you know yeah yeah right I mean that that's the kind of idea that the world you know post Enlightenment pre einsteinian I guess on a on a large scale mathematic philosophic type of viewpoint right yeah like I got the thing where I would say this is post-darwinian okay I would go I would say before then you know but that's you know we can argue that that's not a point either way that life is not just a bunch of like large-scale objects banging into each other I mean Newton didn't think that way and he's supposed to be the dude that started it exactly well that's what I'm saying right but that was did not think that way the influence at the time made it such that that was the pervasive thought I think like most of those okay this is uh we're not supposed to debate this now I think most of these physicists probably didn't think of themselves as being like darwinian they didn't have a they didn't have a darwinian sense of themselves sure no one thought that right sure you know I mean now they're trying to just trash on Darwin or anything like that though I like to do that you know we all have our things that we want to like you know yeah yeah shoot Roxette uh but the reason why I want to shoot rocks it is because of this thing because of this idea that you're only your body or something it's obvious when you get to this conversation about these different levels of who you are right these different levels of reality that you have levels of yourself that are beyond your physical body yeah right and I think that's however yeah we could debate it wherever this got lost you know this idea um but uh in a case you know like I think that's a big point you know and I was thinking yeah go ahead the the I think part of it is that the western or maybe we could even I don't even call it Western maybe we can call it like medicine materialism it's a materialism yeah but like but like even even pre even pre that the the the North African Mediterranean India like groups Greeks and Romans and stuff like that yeah yeah like this comes from this comes from then you know it really starts to begin to be in this in that and that that influence on the world that colonization practice colonization matters in this that's right and so then like you have essentially philosophies that will spread much further than they would have normally because of the interlocking nature of the societies that were that were put together artificially right and so some ideas moved more quickly and have a more staying power because the way that the societies are woven together do you know what I'm saying and so the way that we have the way that we're viewing things is from this you know like new new Roman Empire right the United States you know yeah yeah a couple episodes coming you were in Italy right yeah exactly the Empire never ended it just kept moving it's like uh moving its home base around the world right that's it you know sits juxtaposed to some of the Eastern philosophical ideas which are really juxtaposed to it and that they're not exactly they don't Vibe totally but they don't Vibe really at all they're just kind of different and we can kind of go that's foreign and what they do is weird and different so we don't have to worry about anything to believe in because that doesn't follow what we believe right and this is how it kind of works and so I you know bringing it back to where we want to go so we can get back on track um that that fits this fits this this you know this Indo-European Western whatever you want to call it idea fits very nicely with this idea of the the kunjid galpel or the Supreme source because it is this almost like fee it almost has a monotheistic flavor to it in in a sense you know so when we talk about it it's shockingly theistic yeah yeah it really with this work you're like oh this is about as theistic as a Buddhist work could possibly sound you can get more theistic than this one and it shows the oh but it shows the openness of the traditi it shows the openness of the tradition that like it's like okay here's all these various things when you think Tibetan you know you think Buddhist what you know we think probably monk person maybe meditation I don't know Bells bowls to you know gongs you know whatever but you don't but I mean I'm gonna guess that most people probably don't think of open-minded philosophical and religious belief oh I see where you're going with that do you know what I'm saying Bulls bald heads gongs and open-minded philosophical beliefs yeah yeah and yeah that's and yet that's exactly I mean look take the words of the Dalai Lama I don't want to make any more Buddhists I don't want no more I don't want converts stay whatever you are just being open-minded you know compassionate open-hearted individual be a better Christian be a better Jew be a better Hindu you know you're not looking so like to me this is the Crux of what it is that we're doing it's it's a tradition in and of itself but the tradition is not pigeonholed into one particular belief at the center it's actually like a little Mandala on the bottom you know kind of manifesting in different ways for different people at the right place for the right individual okay I didn't want to kill your flow yeah I got one thing I wanted to say about it which is just there's a weird thing if you go because I teach classes on this even you know I do want it Pacific College you know where I teach where if you go back in the time machine and you look at a lot of these physics folks they're not necessarily minded like material materialists right A lot of them are pretty mystical yeah Newton's a Mystic Kepler's a Mystic Einstein himself is Mystical very much you know so it's hard to say exactly what changed in this because I try to make this point to people but it's not it's not you don't get that way but looking at the fundamental nature of reality probably if you look at the fundamental nature of reality like a like an Einstein you probably get more mystical you probably get mystical as [...] because the universe is a mysterious place and it probably brings out those qualities but I really like I hear what you're saying in the idea that like if you didn't have this element of like let's push our culture everywhere for economic and political power reasons this [...] couldn't spread the way it it does yeah so yeah we live in like America so we're living in this place that has this disproportionate influence its culture will spread out like wildfire through economic power uh Power Within media you know political power and so on so it's getting kind of dumped out all over the place and you really could have like a really shallow reductionistic version of reality kind of from the dumbest parts of this culture they kind of get like shunted off everywhere are we we're in accord on that I imagine you and I right yeah yeah yeah and this is a problem right this is like a genuine problem because it's usually like you know when you get to that thing and yeah you don't get the deepest parts of things that go out you could get deep parts of American culture and beautiful parts of American culture but you know it ends up being usually not that that kind of finds its way out you know into the marketplace of ideas right yeah there you go you know it's always like the stuff that like well this is kind of [...] and you know not so good but like this will probably sell so okay let's let's put this one out there all right anyway so we agree you know I just I I we both agree we don't want to blame this on the Sciences no you know and I definitely don't want to blame it on like some Physics or something like that so okay we're in the same headspace all right so we'll start on this kunjab uh galpa we probably won't finish it but at least we'll give it a start right because you got cut off yeah yeah I got like 40 minutes oh do you okay so yeah Oh I thought you had like more of a a 3 30ish Chicago okay cool let's rock this out yeah okay so this is a yeah we're talking about this one and this is a really fascinating Buddhist to work and Tantra and like what Danny was saying it's like about this close to anything theistic as you could possibly imagine right the title of this thing is relating back to this kunjetpo is the all creating King though to get rid of the sort of uh masculine yeah gender bias within that they you know they've translated as a supreme source and this will make sense as we go through when we see what this thing says so it's like personified in this really um shocking way right it's a it's a text that we'll talk about from a a tantric Buddhist perspective but like that there's this source and it's really personified so if you were to ask well what is this all creating King Supreme source of which you speak this book is going to tell you because every chapter is uh this supreme Source speaking out over and over again about itself every chapter is that going let me tell you about myself you know and like a lot of times reiterating the same ideas but it's like let me remind you what I just said on the previous page that's right that you forgot about that it was on the page before that too yeah so here's what it tries to say it's present it's presented as a dialogue uh and a very uh intensely deep one very deep and intense one and from our conversations previously it's also a very high version of what would constitute like the three aspects of the of the Buddha or something like that like it's a it's a very high high version like we were talking about no christologies and high christologies when we started this whole subject matter out some people see Jesus is a prophet some people see Jesus as a Divine figure some people see him as like God it's uh God uh in himself you know so anyways high and low this is pretty high so the streams Source says over and over and over again really every chapter on every page uh he is pure and total Consciousness so sometimes you'll see this idea like pure and total Consciousness this phrase shows up again and again and again and so there's a way in which this idea of pure and total Consciousness is going to be the source of everything I'll also talk about use this phrase self arising wisdom so in like just existing already on its own as this wisdom force and energy so it's kind of like uh uh the ground of everything is this pure and total Consciousness this pure spirit and Natural Insight wisdom everything is this you know if you can see things properly so he's then therefore seen as the source of everything but in a very funny way I wanted to pull this like this this kind of quote out specifically because it's very interesting so he says he himself is the womb from which all phenomenon originate so it says he is the womb okay so right away you can kind of get like the gender busting nature of this statement right and why they would say Supreme source as opposed to something but maybe a more masculine pronoun because right away you can see that it's like the the feminine masculine quality is being blurred in this right and I don't know it occurred to me that like you know there's a lot of questions around this in our time now you know people asking all these questions about what gender really means you know and this is gender obviously like and the ultimate level of reality this is like gender busting in a major serious way so um so the womb for which all phenomena originate and yet at the same time the source and substance of everything like right now so part of the meditation of this one is if you look around you no matter what you're seeing you're supposed to also be on the more gross level physical ways things appear you're supposed to see them as secretly a supreme Source right and it's really a question of optical illusion uh that you don't see that on some level which is exactly kind of like what the bit here was saying you know when we were talking about that from the Kabbalah it's the same kind of a teaching so there's a real Universal quality to this I think right so when they talk about things coming out though and I'll throw this out to you Daniel again I'm curious to see what you'll think about this but from this Source everything comes out so in some chapters he'll this supreme Source will be kind of explaining okay this is how everything comes out of me and so I'm all pervading like all space I pervade everywhere at all times like space right so there's definitely analogy during the times between like space later on there'll be like meditative things like thinking like the sky um and we'll talk about that when we get to it but then from that all-pervading space things start to manifest out within that and some of this will be undifferentiated unit the undifferentiated unity paraphrasing kind of what's in the book and the way that will you know speak to like what we've talked about and this will be like a mind of black appearance you know the unity before yin and yang differentiates itself and then it'll be red and then it'll be white and that's the uh the Yang and the yin of the universe appearing right and then out of that eventually we'll come from those three the Supreme sources body speech in mind but that will manifest as like the three levels of reality that we all experience very subtle subtle and then more gross level material reality which also manifests and Buddhist thought we've talked about in previous previous episodes it's like sort of the three levels of reality of formulasness form and then the more desire realm stuff that we've talked about right in other episodes the more physical world that we live within all three of these levels of reality are coming out of the Supreme source and uh and then into all of us as our bodies and our energies and our minds right uh like a big picture level but in each individual little uh uh aspect of reality which is us a little aspect of reality We're All manifesting in This same way right holographically um and then the idea that there's these five his five elements or the Supreme sources five elements from the womb of creation him her who knows will manifest as uh the five elements will manifest as the uh well literally say like I have five aspects and those appear as the five elements that make up nature and that will become the Aggregates that make up a person too our form our feelings our Concepts our deeper drives our Consciousness with their basic five emotions so it's like this manifests out from the Supreme source and as it differentiates itself kind of on different levels of reality eventually you'll get human beings we have all these five things within us too right tracing their way back to this source so we have Earth fire water wind or Prana Consciousness right we also have related to that Earth and form water and feelings fire and our conceptual aspects of how we think inside wind and our drives and goals as we talked about in different episodes we've talked about these five Aggregates and then Consciousness we have those things in US because they're manifest of the template from the Supreme Source right we have that same stuff in us and in a way that can also lead to like emotions that can go good and bad ways but you know this is where you get the problem of problematic emotions too like ignorance with form and then you know um sometimes they'll say Pride you know with feeling and then attachment that can go wrong with fire and the concepts and then um uh you know uh jealousy envy and then anger right but you know it's like a kind of like anyone who has heard anything about Asian culture will immediately recognize this as some big chart of like correspondences that are happening but the point in this like idea uh of this text is that this is all coming out of the Supreme source and then it's just manifesting in each of us isn't that a trip it is a trip and eventually in the end what will happen is it eventually says like no matter what you are when you're a teacher are you presenting a teaching or if you're a student you're all me too no matter what it is secretly it's me you know so anyways that's kind of like the way to kind of talk about what this text is trying to say right so for me interesting in your reaction obviously too but for me I you can't help but notice on the one hand how Taoist this is if you like Taoism because in Daoism you'll say there's a Dao and all these different things manifest out of this doubt and that's how you get all the the elements of reality I mean obviously the doubt the Taoist tradition will say from the Dao comes a Unity this will become yin and yang this will become the five elements or phases and reality will keep going along this way right until eventually it like differentiates itself and then you and I are sitting here talking about this this stuff but it's supposed to be like really because math isn't out of this source um and then also like how theistic it is yeah but in this really interesting way because it's like it's goddess it's God it's mind it's spirit it's like not one thing it's like you know um it's not just saying I'm this particular I am Zeus hear me roar it's not exactly saying that doing something else sometimes it uses the the it'll talk about my nature is like this and it does this and this and this and this so sometimes you'll see the pronoun it there you know so it's really like flexible on this point right it's really not trying to say I'm uh I'm a a goddess or a God or even a pronoun it it's like all over the place with this stuff actually you know and it keeps saying Consciousness right keep saying Consciousness mind Spirit it keeps saying that wisdom uses that phrase a lot it's interesting so it's theistic and yeah it's kind of not all right because I was talking for a little bit let me throw the mic back which parts jump out at you that you want to like know I without prepping at all I had uh a page book marked oh in this thing okay you read the wrong I will I will write but I didn't I haven't I haven't read it yet what's going to happen is going to fit just perfectly the trippy thing is if we had the same things bookmark but let's see well we'll see that there's there's about you know whatever uh 300 pages in here so that's you know yeah one out of 250. odds are against us but anyways here I'm still interested go ahead okay I am the core of all that exist I am the seed of all that exists I am the cause of all that exists I am the trunk of all that exists I am the foundation of all that exists I am the root of existence I am the core because I contain all phenomena I am deceived because I give birth to everything I am the cause because all comes forth from me I am the trunk because the ramifications of every Sprout come from me I am the foundation because all abides in me I am called the root because I am everything yeah yeah so yeah when you're reading that so we had a great Sufi episode on and the guest was uh uh not so secretly Daniel's mother no not Secret at all so what's funny about that is like couldn't that be something absolutely for sure 100 for sure right yeah 100 you know as we're as you're talking I'm thinking like what would you call a religion that's Christian without Jesus being Jesus just you know like another prophet that's called Islam you know what I mean yeah yeah like removing essentially removing one particular you know deified Prophet right having prophets having Saints having great Masters and beings of of great Enlightenment and great influence but not raising one up which to me it always seemed counterintuitive because if there's supposed to be one you know according to the teachings these teachings in particular and those teachings in that in those Traditions there is only one source right but there's only one you know Allahu Akbar meaning God is the great there's only one you know but there's only one God but God and you know same thing in Christian in Christianity there's it's not monothea it's it's not polytheistic it's monotheistic so if there's only one God why is it that we would Place something closer to it than we would be it just never it never jived it never jived right so you know when we when I read this and as we're going through this again it's yet another reminder that it's like oh yeah the seed of everything is the same right the the manifestation of everything is this is this thing is the trunk is the seed is the branch is the leaf is the air around it is the soil that it grows within it comes from the same it's like if we're all carbon-based life forms then you know we're all carbon but if everything is in carbon bases there something that makes the mat and it makes matter what it is or makes energy what it is or makes mind what it is and the answer is yeah probably and it's this whatever this is you know well I think it's like I think that whole story of I mean it's attributed to different people but I think it's supposed to also go back to Rumi this idea that you have an elephant and everybody feels a different part of the elephant right somebody's hugging the trunk and other one's like feeling the tusks another one can feel the you know the the nose or whatever they call it right they call it drunk trunk thanks uh yeah you could feel the tail um or whatever depending on like how fortuitously placed you are relative to the elephant I suppose you get a different grip on something but you know you all feel different things but I don't know I mean I think if you said like there's a system of thought that says that like everything is coming out of some One Source you could say that that's Islam or Sufism but you could just as easily say that's taoism why not right or different versions of Indian takes on things yeah or different versions of like Tantra right why not isn't that the point right yeah yeah so the only thing about this which is kind of and I don't know and then I don't want to like say something that's like uh you know like uh well look maybe we do want to say things that are controversial but the other thing about this is just the idea like you can get this vibe like in Islam at least as an outsider to it on some level do I love Sufi things right I love Sufi poetry and Sufi poets and stuff but you can sometimes get within their cultural setting that there's like the Divine source and everything else is just sort of like underneath you sometimes you can get that strong Division and the thing in the text and I don't I'm not saying that's representative of how Islam is supposed to be or something but that's the vibe that you could get you know I mean and at least within something like this book the idea is that everything around you including you is also the same thing so it's not like there's this big divide between this awesomeness thing and then a bunch of things that are relatively speaking lowly you know again I'm not trying to say that that's what it's supposed to be in any of these like traditions but that's a lot of times what people walk away with you know what I'm saying um I know what do you think about that is that fair to say uh yeah I mean and I would say probably that it's not I don't think it's just Islam though I think you know I'm not trying to I'm not in any way trying to like specifically put the Target on any particular belief system in this you know what that's I was gonna say I think it's all of them actually and and not only is there division between uh unmanifest God Divinity however you want to call it Supreme source gunjit galpel and then everything below but also so that's within your own box but then your box is inherently better than that other box over there that box over there is even below your worst your worst of the worst because that box believes in another thing that is not this good thing but we're not as good as this hop top thing and so and then it just keeps dividing all the way around you know what I mean there's an absolute like hierarchical aspect to it yes it's like infinitely hierarchical yeah and that's the whole but like this work in particular pokes a pin right through that balloon and says why I'm all I am all the same I am all of it so thereby you know how can how can that be different than this you know at its truest Source that's right the Eraser on the tippy tip of this pencil to the greatest Archangel right and I think you know to the point about roomy's thing I think uh I don't does he I don't know that that's that story but is he talking about blind people touching an elephant yeah yeah yeah yeah I think okay I didn't clarify the blind thing yeah I don't know the tail right so you don't know the story yeah part of the story is they're blind yeah so a bunch of blind people touching an elephant all are describing a different thing and yet it's still the same elephant and the extrapolation to that is us is that all of us experiencing Divinity as something different still experiencing divineness as beings with perception yeah because like part of the text this kunja giampo was trying to like say no you have to recognize this this is the secret thing that's you're supposed to get you know yeah and it's not like outside of you or outside of anything it's everything like all the time it's everything everywhere all at once Daniel's favorite movie you know so I don't know like in terms like in terms of my own uh different personal experiences with this you know there was a certain moment I think we were already doing the excuse me I think we were already doing the podcast and I got like boy this hierarchy thing really bothers me sure you know and I had never like hung a word like that on it you know but once I it's like when those things once you hang the word once you see it well you cannot see it right you know and I mentioned it here and there in different episodes but I was like oh yeah this really bothers me and these things that start doing these massive hierarchies you know because you do start to see it's like really hierarchical it goes from the Divinity to the priest to the king to the this one to that one and then down somewhere at the bottom is the rest of our schleps you know under this massive hierarchy and you're like well that's something to be [...] suspicious on the minute you got a world view like that then like some alarm should be going off in your head going I I think someone's getting shafted yeah and wait a minute I'm looking in the mirror oh and I'm seeing the big shaft sticking out on the backside might be me who put this collar on me yeah yeah it's like that there's something wrong with that obviously but you're right like the ubiquitousness of that idea right then coupled with the ones like okay they got their own hierarchy over there that one's completely diluted so we gotta trash that one that one has to get destroyed because that's messing with our hierarchy right right it's wrong with those people has to be destroyed it has to be destroyed don't they understand that all their hierarchy [...] is way below ours yeah they should know better and the hierarchy of hierarchies their hierarchy is like way down at the bottom of the hierarchies arms is up over here that's really [...] up so [...] up dude yeah then it's a hard thing to unsee you know what I mean it's a really hard thing to unsee and it did affect me a little bit the extent that you could have aspects of spiritual Traditions that are like that I just was like I can't I can't stomach that I cannot abide that because I think that's like a source of like we don't throw the word evil around you know but it's a source of evil not in the devil Halloween sense for heading into Halloween but uh maybe look like a moose there you go yeah Rocky Bullwinkle yeah mirror mirror on the wall um uh well Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoons so uh but you know the idea like uh yeah that's a source of like something really really toxic that's about as toxic as you can get to me you start doing that you're on the road to toxic towns yeah okay so we we've bitched about the few things that we thought that we really don't like yo Daniel I didn't finish it let me say it real quick the thing about the body and seeing that there's things beyond the body I wanted to talk about it this is a definite tangent but I wanted to do it real quick and then we'll get back on target but let me see what you think about this sure so what sometimes has bothered me even with our own little field of like traditional Chinese medicine sure you know I've had conversations with students where they're like I want to put people back in their bodies I want people to be back in their bodies and they know what they mean when they say that you know I'm not unempathetic to what they're saying they're saying I want people to be I want people people have their minds are running all over the place and what I want to do is I want them to get rooted more somehow so it stops the running around of all their minds of course yeah the grounding the grounding of the grounding yeah that can remember like I was like it's so ubiquitous and at a certain point I could remember talking to a student and she would say this over and over again I want to ground people in their bodies and ground people in your bodies and at one point they said to her well why do you want to do that like why do you think that's such a great idea in the sense that like yeah I get what you mean I'm being empathetic to what you're saying you want to stop people from like running around with all their crazy thoughts sure okay I got it but like but like there's more to people than their bodies so you don't get people saying I want to ground people in their Shins in their highest Spirits nobody [...] says that ever they all say they want to ground people in their bodies and like the point I was trying to make was something like that's part of the like the limiting views that are causing people so many problems because on the one hand of course their minds are running around like crazy I get that on the other hand beyond that all they think they are is their body you know and so your whole idea even when you say that to them I want to ground you in your body you're kind of reinforcing this idea that all you are is a body and if all you thinking of yourself as a body you can't see the Supreme Source because there's more to you than that you get what I'm trying to say oh yeah no I mean it's like such ubiquitous language and when you I remember telling her this I'm sorry I'm talking about I apologize but I remember and she looked at me with this shocked expression and then she said well listen what we're supposed to be doing like grounding people in their bodies and I was like no no no no no you know from a certain point of view don't again empathetic to what they're trying to do okay let me let me hand the mic off sorry I just wanted to like yeah I think that like with it all you know the right the right medicine at the right time for the right person you know yeah so for some people because I'm going through this program now where it is body focus you know it's it's body focus and one of the lines I took away from this program for sure is we're in these bodies not for nothing you know okay which is which is which is a way of looking at it and I think that the dissociation from our bodies whether it be from and I have two kind of thoughts on this one as a defensive mechanism right so fight flight I'm not saying that's not true that's right so so there that's one part but then the other part is that like we use our eyes and Minds more than we ever have in the past and yes we could say oh we always work with our hands and our eyes but not to the level of screens and outward motion that we do on a regular basis as we do today there's just no comparison in history I don't care if you were if your great great granddaddy was a blacksmith and you still run the shop as a four-year-old do you know what I'm saying like when the one when the sun went down the only light you had was fire you know and now TV never stops T right TV used to go off now TV never stops right your phone you're all this so I think this is the other part this so there's kind of like trauma aspect of it and then the sort of like the the Chinese medical the Hun the the liver component the eyes leaving the body kind of part um and and I agree with and I like the idea because I think people are people are generally dissociated from themselves like for for a lot of folks you know and the body is a source and I talk about this with a lot of my patients and you probably do as well but the body is a source of of like shouting I'm really I'm hungry so you feel hunger pain I gotta poop so you feel uh you know the the rush to move somewhere I'm horny you know I'm thirsty I'm in pain you know what I'm saying but there is not this more subtle uh dialogue that occurs between what are what we're thinking about and what we're experiencing as a as a being and so that there is there is lessons to be taken from the hardware because the hardware is storing our experience that we have in this life and if we're using this life as fuel for fire for our our our uh you know not I don't like to call this over word oversold but if if this life is an experience for us to grow from and I can't remember everything the body like the book that we've talked about before the body keeps score the body that is imprinting all the things that we have right that we've experienced and some of it sometimes gets locked in and thereby we recreate the dialogue between the mind and the body but to your point this is a conscious approach right this is me using the Hun me using the the the wood part of my Shen my my soul the one that goes out and sees and dreams and turning that back in and finding that the parts of my body that are speaking to myself not just you know quote unquote grounding but then also on the other hand and and related to your point if that's where you stop if that's where you stop then you're missing the whole thing then you are grasping onto a finite piece of Machinery that is albeit perfectly built still is finite and to your point the aspects of ourselves that are infinite are being missed out on yeah I mean like I can be empathetic to the idea that someone undergoes a physical trauma sexual trauma and whatever and they have these dissociated aspects of what happens so definitely we all see patients like that right and part of it is sort of you might say healing some connection of the mind to the body or something like that right then we can't can't forget about inherit you know the inherited stuff along right because if inherent you can pass trauma in your lineage okay you know what I'm saying so sometimes it's sometimes it is a an acute thing that happens in someone's life sometimes it's accumulation um there's a book now that I'm reading uh I think the the myth of normal by gabarmante which is a really great thing and he talks about a lot of the traumas that we just have in in modern society with working parents and the negative influence of Dr Spock's books and like the 50s and 60s about letting the kids cry and not giving them the opportunity to just be held and cared for he talks about there's some cultures who he's been influenced by in Canada native cultures they and they said that their goal is to never let the infant or the baby touch the ground until they're three always being carried by somebody because they don't you don't have a fully developed nervous system so you rely on the adults to kind of tell you what's safe and what's not safe because you don't know you're just this weird little you know fish with legs right um and so there's this there's these other kind of things that are maybe like sub-acute traumas that we might you know maybe that's not even the right word for them you know um that are are kind of laid in inside of our physicality and I think from the you know from the defense of the other side is that there they would want to unlock those now whether or not someone would come to you and say I want to put people on their bodies I think they're just referencing the grounding in their mind but there is also here something for for us to unlock without the hardware the software is somewhere no that's all wrong now I'm just given [...] in a way that I shouldn't really give [...] to you it's not I just an explosion of emotion Technologies no because I'm willing to die on this [...] Hill right well I'm gonna charge up this [...] Hill and die on this hill sure okay the thing is uh uh and yeah sorry this is like we very rarely have moments of emotion emotions are good when you say when you say something like the hardware and the software the the image itself has this is the reason I reacted the way I did yeah I'm not a fan yeah so so the the the image that image itself is a 21st century image sure of the idea that the buzzing of the computer produces the Epi phenomenon of the Mind and if I take away the hardware there's nothing left sure once the hardware is gone and I guess the thing that bugs me Daniel is like we're living within this cultural setting this is the thing we were talking about earlier this is the view of the world yeah Hardware software you know uh and it's the hardware that buzzes and words and it produces this thing you know but the software doesn't exist the side of that it's just like a something that comes out of the hardware you know that's the reason I like I'm so emotional on this point because it's like no no no no no because you can't see this right from that point of view it's very hard because you think I'm just some whirling buzzing apparatus you know and I guess from my point of view it would be something like everyone is living probably and Bobby T makes this point too and we both know it everyone's living within this Paradigm right yeah you know this is the Paradigm and when you start saying I want to put people in their body or we're going to go back to the body you're already kind of in a certain sense reinforcing this Paradigm that everyone thinks potentially right sure of course there could be positive virtuous aspects like what you're talking about too yeah not believing those at all and then the thing is it makes you wonder whether or not like even the all clinical fields are so ameshed in this paradigmic way of looking at the world that like the people practicing don't even see that you know what I'm trying to say sure sure because I could very easily say you know my goal is to like really like root you in your Buddha nature no one ever says it ever yeah and why because they don't believe it right they don't believe it exists because they think their Hardware producing software and they think their patients are too you know what I'm saying yeah yeah so anyways I know it's such an emotional thing yeah no I I could see it I very rarely just like blurt out well yeah I I know but that's the part that bugs me that one part about like even the hardware software that's such a 21st century analogy right for sure but yeah you know we have to be what is what is that book that says the book is called meditation as medicine uh and we've talked about it it's been a long time though but you know the guy opens up he's a neurologist and he opens up the book with you know a little prayer he says before he meets with his patients Lord let me speak to them in a language they'll understand stand and so even though it's dualistic in nature right Hardware software it's our we are we're already outside of the Supreme Source right we've already split at least one time right well it's even different than that it's because you're denying that there's another aspect of reality you could say oh yeah there's some heart there's a body going on yeah but the minute you say Hardware software everyone knows that without the hardware of this phone [...] ain't happening right it's just hardware and you know so that already eliminates a whole aspect of reality you know it eliminates the other two bodies they're gone they're disappeared I'm gonna I'm I'm willing to die on this hill right what I'm just saying is that like but at the same time in order to be able to walk people through to that there has to be a shared language you know and so this is this is that shared language and yes they talk about hardware and software but at least the software is acknowledged and I think for a long time the software was not acknowledged actually it was only Hardware yes we're Hardware we're Hardware dominant but you could there are far more people who who you see and who I see now who are willing to acknowledge that work has to be done on the software in order to have a change in their physical experience in order to have a change in their life whereas before and I'm talking not even that long ago you know maybe 20 years ago that like it would only be take a pill do this thing and now the ideas of like mindfulness meditation breathing the spiritual side mental health breaks for yourself whatever retreats to work on this you know quote-unquote software are far more accepted right FMLA is you know is far more accepted now than it was before unless you literally like your wife died and who was going to raise your kids because you're the you know what I'm saying like you these things are are far more prevalent than before so to your point yes I agree without the hardware what is software I don't know what's the cloud there is no Cloud it's a bunch of wires and servers hooked up to some wall somewhere plugged in you know but at least people have this idea that we can we can you know take apart but but it is an existence do you know does that does that yeah I mean it's like one of these things where I'm not sure I'm not sure you know it would question the question would be like when someone uses this analogy of hardware and software how does that sound to that person do they actually think oh I have a Shen that transcends this body or do they think oh yeah I'm like a computer you know because the dominant image is like the computer right and the computer is like uh uh I mean this depends on how this image hits people right so I don't know the answer part right it's whether or not you go when you hear the word software you go oh there's something Beyond just the hardware that then can change the hardware you know okay then that that then that analogy doesn't even make any sense anymore well this is so this is but this is the question that I asked earlier right what what do people think Enlightenment is the the answer to that question is inherently built into this idea right here is inherently built into this argument depending on how some people believe they will answer that question different so again I'll ask the audience again what do you believe Enlightenment is and based on and and the answering that question you can think for yourself do you have this view you know what do you think of the hardware versus or not versus but hardware and software you know immersion is there software without the hardware because essentially if you could to me by asking somebody or no but like in the computer there is no software without the hardware there is no software without the hardware but the software is an Epi phenomenon of the hardware I mean that's what the analogy would actually mean you know what I'm saying yeah for me I I look but you're saying it differently you're saying it differently yeah you're saying I'm saying I get that I'm just saying like what do people think when they hear that analogy oh yeah people yeah people if you hear that when people hear this analogy please and I'll and I will do it and I will myself take this upon myself as a clinician to when I will I'll intentionally bring this up because this comes up every time and you know we talk about this in Chinese medicine the psychospiritual aspect of a being that has physical manifestation somatitization right but there's this crossing point between the two that occurs where someone's brooding over X Y or Z will have an effect on their digestion you know what I'm saying yeah yeah that's very very true yeah so so we're looking at this from the but that means then like I said you have a psycho spiritual aspect and if I can get to someone to admit that well then that means that there might be there might be more there for them right and what you're basically saying in the end is that this tool of saying software and Hardware is a way of tapping into how this person is maybe thinking about the world a little bit already and you tweak the image for them yes that's what you're saying and I get it yes you know I mean yeah but I also kind of like I'm again it's this point of like it's it's been a point of concern for a long time because I could see this thing in people sure there's in the culture and again Robert Durham talks about this when he first went to India they're like you're not gonna get enlightened his teacher tells them right but he's like why why are you saying it to me because you don't believe there's anything in yourself Beyond just this physical body you think you're just that you know and then it's you know so anyways that was that's my point of concern right so it's a funny thing to bring up in the middle of an episode on this but it does it's part of the conversation but I mean if you can't see there's more to yourself be honest and you can't enter into this world of these uh other aspects of reality in these other aspects of who you are you can't get into that space you're just locked in this little box yeah of you know your uh physicality yeah and that's the point but that I mean that's the much of the point of this book right it's yeah yeah yeah yeah the source of it all is the same Source the source of the hardware the source of the software like that the same the same source of of all of it is there and so to be able to to see that experience that understand that you know whatever it's a weird way in an episode like this would come together because we were talking earlier about like you have this view of the way of looking at the world that's like been spread out you know yeah because there's this sort of political economic colonization yes happening and so this view becomes more and more pervasive and uh and it is shutting up and like hitting against other views that would potentially be different right but it's there you know and it's like in a certain sense so pervasive that it's like um it's like the fish in the water it's hard to see the water anymore yeah it's so pervasive you know and I think a lot of times in people's own minds they don't yeah you'd have to really look like what Bob Thurman is talking about from his experience you know again we told the story in different episodes but you know from this moment of going why is this Tibetan man telling me I can't get enlightened yeah you know and he's saying it's because of the Paradigm you come from and the way you look at the world you think you're only your body and and again I you know I I would look at people within our little field and go how many of them actually honestly believe there's more to them than just their body that becomes the question because we've all been raised to think this you know what I'm trying to say oh all right anyways that's part of the conversation for sure it's kind of funny I didn't think we're gonna like talk about it with that much richness but it's great that we did right no I I I got all emotional no it's just makes me emotional I really care about this subject matter I mean we know each other no and I think though that like it's a good but here the the point that I would you know that I would leave with people is that like just having that discussion there allows for further discussion so to bring this point up with anybody you immediately open the door you know to say okay where are we going and then if you if you say something like Hardware software then you can then then you do the follow-up thing we can't make the assumption that they automatically assume that with no Hardware the software is just could put that might not be the case you know and so you open up and you say okay well tell me more about your particular software you know what are the inner workings of your mind and then it opens up the dialogue for meditation yeah so like in Zen you call this expedient means you try to go and say okay where's this person at and what way is going to speak to them everyone knows this kind of Hardware software thing some way or another yeah so let's use that as the uh the starting point of a conversation yeah and let's give them a chance to think of what it really means to have software yeah maybe it means more than what they thought of before that's your point kind of that's it and then thereby the Supreme source is the source code for it all the ultimate ones and zeros behind everything all right cool so I guess next time we'll finish up on on Kucha galpo right yeah Boogie right yeah okay so next time we'll figure this out we'll finish up on this and we'll talk a little bit about the Dalai Lama the DL yeah the dlama um and uh and we'll uh we'll figure this all out uh by the end of all of this but up into the ball in the pre you know ready to skip off for you know no more no no one ever has to talk about this subject matter again it's done these four or five episodes nailed it so perfect perfect literally yep Diamond Sutra uh contemporary Diamond Sutra yeah just done uh the the the the the auditory Diamond Sutra that you can just like plug into your earpods yeah while you're washing the dishes yeah all right cool so I'm glad I'm glad we talked about that part I'm glad I brought back around to this body thing because that's a that's an interesting conversation relative this yeah all right cool all right brother well thank you so much as always uh audience thank you for for catching us on the video on the audio uh you know whatever we asked a couple questions today on on what people think I'd certainly love to to hear from people so hit us up at gin and Tantra gmail.com that's gin with a g g i n and Tantra the words all of them at gmail.com or you can hit us up on Instagram at uh Jin and Tantra or leave a comment in the YouTube you know definitely I I make sure to to check those so you you can you know let us know what you think Enlightenment is and when we do talk about the hardware and the software what are your what are your thoughts you know on on this kind of you know Philosophy for yourself or you know have you never thought about it I mean all of it's interesting fodder because I think it it adds to the conversation between us and then between the people in their community so um definitely appreciative of uh Eric your effort of you know our continued work together and of people tuning in listening to us and giving us feedback and and all that kind of stuff I definitely appreciate it for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace