[music]

What?

Hey fellow Gen Tiers, those of us who like our spirituality with a twist. So, we are in the midst of one of these little things that we love to do, a little series, and we're talking about one of our favorite psychologist, Carl Jung. And you know, for me, Daniel, he's one of my favorite ones to talk about cuz he is so obviously psycho-spiritually interested, probably as much or more so than any like major psychological figure. So, that's been a fun subject at matter for us. We're doing the deep dive into a lot of his concepts. And um we've been using different sources for this. There's a Bernardo Kastrup who's been kind of referencing here and there, who's sort of a major philosophy of uh consciousness guy who talks about Young. We've been looking a little bit at Young's The Red Books. And so, this is our kind of like spending some time with Carl Jung episodes. And we've been doing something on this one of his ideas called a daemon, not a demon, a daemon, d a i m o n, which is this idea that everyone has like an kind of an inner archetypal spirit guide that becomes sort of a force in their life. And we got to the point where we want to talk about how this compares to like one of the big Tibetan Buddhist ideas, which is the idea of a yidam. We're going to try to kick that around a little bit. We're going to freestyle it a little bit. Um cuz it's a it's a deep subject matter and we'll explore it as best we can, and that's kind of our notion here. So, okay, but before we get to the good stuff, I'm going to do the usuals, which is if you can do the stuff that everyone asks you to do every single podcast you ever listened to, which is to like or subscribe or share an episode or like a write a review. That would be awesome. You know, as we always say every week, this is a labor of love for us. We really care about all this spiritual stuff. And whatever you can do to maybe help get our material out to more people would be greatly appreciated, and we appreciate all you for uh listening, too. So, thank you so much. Um all right, I don't know what the question of the week is. I guess it's kind of like what is a yidam?

Correct.

does a yidam mean sort of like psychologically? So, you know, I was thinking about talking about this and it's really funny cuz if you're a non-Tibetan person, you go to what would be called an empowerment. In the Tibetan it's called a wang. It's like a little bit of like an initiation ritual into a practice. Daniel, you know, we were talking off mic about the lack of rituals in the Western world, right? You were sort of like making that point. There's a bit of a hole with that, right? And this is sort of a Tibetan spiritual ritual that introduces you into doing whatever practice it is you're getting this initiatory ritual in. When you're in like I said though, when you're a non-Tibetan person, you go in and you have no idea what the [...] is going on at all.

[laughter]

They do a lot of stuff in Tibetan. You're completely confused. You go through the ritual. It feels good, right? But you're also like I have no idea what what happened. So, I thought maybe Daniel will talk a little bit about the stages in these empowerments to give a people a feeling of what a yidam is. Sound cool to you?

Uh yeah, I think before we do that though, just like uh we can we can talk about what a yidam is, but to give just cuz people are going to hear that word, they're going to have no no concept what that word even means.

Yeah. So, I mean you want to do it? You want me to do it?

No, you go for it and then I'll I'll I'll

Okay. So, yidam is like uh these meditation deities in Tibetan Buddhist practice. If you kind of look up Tibetan Buddhist art, you'll see all these different kind of images.

[clears throat]

And they're not just meant to be like uh paintings of the saints or something the way you might think about it in uh you know, Christian culture or something. They kind of carry a different role. They're They're things that you want to connect with in your spiritual practice the may the way if you're a Catholic, you might want to connect to a saint or something. But it's also the idea that you go through these rituals of like connecting with whatever the practice is that you're doing and it could be someone a female figure like Tara is a really kind of famous one, right? Then you can do a little search Tara. If you listen to us and see that or there's masculine figures. One of Daniel's and I favorites is Manjushri. He carries a sword that represents wisdom, the ability of the mind to cut through delusion. He has a book in another hand. So, there are those kinds of things. Some of them get more exotic if you do a little search and they can There's one one of the ones that's called Yamantaka. He has the head of a buffalo. So, it has a little bit of shamanic feeling to it, power animal kind of a vibe going on, big horns, sometimes all these arms with all of these different weapons that represent power in the spiritual practice of the person who's doing the thing and the ability of them to overcome obstacles. So, there's lots left to talk about with this, but you can do a little search and you can see some of the imagery. Some of them are kind of saucy. You'll have a lot of things or what they call a yab-yum, which is like a female and male couple together. You know, it kind of has a little bit more of like how do I use my sexual feelings, my erotic feelings, my romantic feelings in my practice. So, a lot of great stuff to look at if you kind of do a little search for the Tibetan art. You can see these things. And what's interesting about them is they can be things that you connect to as spiritual energies in the world, but the more you go deep into the tantras, the idea is that you're supposed to embody that yidam yourself in a certain sense. You're supposed to transform into psycho-spiritually into the the feeling and the power of that meditation figure, right? So, it takes on a different role. You know, you might be thinking about Well, I I can connect to, you know, the angel Gabriel or something. It's a little different because you're going to become the angel Gabriel in a in a way, right? It takes on a different role the deeper you get into the tantras. Okay, so that's kind of like my little short introduction to that.

Yeah, so yeah, so the the the yidam So, first of all, if you're listening to this podcast, the picture that we use for our image for the podcast itself is of Tara. So, that's that's a a way in which you have no idea if you can't find one. Like that's that's one. Right? And Tara represents a number of different things, but you know, healing and you know, purification, something like this. Um amongst other things, but you know, something like this. And so, I'll give you know, some of the you know, they say that the Yidam is a meditational deity that serves as a focus for meditation and spiritual practice. Um said to be the manifestations of the enlightened mind or of Buddhahood or something along those lines. And you know, I like I you know, Eric, you make this point of like that these are not only symbols for you to connect with during meditation or if you want to call it prayer, that's fine, too. You know, like you mentioned Gabriel, but that you are also trying to emulate what it is that these characters are meaning, what they are intended to mean in reality. So, much like all iconography and artwork, really, but iconography in particular amongst you know, basically every tradition, the pictures that are shared in the practices that they that they carry have meaning in them. So, uh wings not only mean that like someone can fly, but they can travel between different worlds, between the spirit world and the earth plane.

Well, they can transcend the mundane or something, right? You know, when you interpret it, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Um but that's the point is that there's multiple multiple interpretations for one particular symbol, right? A picture is worth a thousand words. And out of those thousand words, multiple descriptions of that picture can be given. And the same thing can be said for these symbols. So, uh there's various symbols that uh you can see in Tibetan Buddhist iconography as well as Christian iconography or, you know, Judaistic iconog- any iconography from any tradition will all have various symbols. Um I think for Eric and I and for the history of this podcast, we have been talking about primarily the the Tibetan Buddhist icons in this way because this is what we're most familiar with. This is what we spend a lot of our time teaching with on retreat. Um not only us teaching, but then also us receiving teachings. And so, these are a very uh familiar place with us because of our connection with them and therefore they are a strong source of inspiration in our life from the perspective of practice in terms of meditation focus. But then and and as Eric was saying and and I'll wrap up my point here, that we you know, as being good practitioners are trying, sometimes with more or less success, but we're trying to emulate that which we are desiring to connect to. So, for example, if we're seeing Tara as a healing figure, right? She is the the doctor or the nurse of the enlightened state, then we are, okay, trying to feel what that feels like, to connect with her, have her in our space physically, energetically, psychologically, and then trying to get up from the meditation cushion being the emanation of Tara. I am Tara. And maybe, okay, maybe I don't want to, you know, walk around feeling like I'm a uh sexy Asian lady, but you know, that's not terrible feeling, I guess. But it's the energies that she is representing. It's the psychology that goes along with it that she can transcend the mundane things and have infinite amount of skills and possibilities to help people with any possible situation. So, it is a very empowering feeling. And in order to be able to work with these uh yidams, to work with these beings, to work and understand with this iconography, you have to go to an empowerment ritual, which Eric will talk about right now.

Well, I think the thing that's interesting [clears throat] about it is you know, I like looked at ritual magic things, too, and done those kinds of things. When you get to like, you know, uh Gabriel or Michael or Raphael or Uriel, you know, you can kind of invoke those figures to become an influence in your life. You could say like, "What would Jesus do?" and wear it around, you know, and a necklace, right? You're trying to emulate the the positive qualities of a deep spiritual figure like that. Um the thing that's interesting about this is that, you know, you're not maybe thinking like even you're going to become Kali. I'm not a Kali practitioner, maybe people do feel that way, I don't know. But like the idea of the yidam is that you're going to like become that yidam. You're going to not only just emulate, you're going to transform. And you're supposed to kind of again, I think when Jung you'd say like creative imagination was one of his psychological things. The idea is this is a creative imagination technique. In my mind, I am the yidam that I identify with, right? So, I'm going to transform in that way, my mind, my psyche, my spirit into that. I may be still walking around looking like Eric, but inside, and also in the energies that inform my psyche, my spirit, I've transformed myself into the yidam that's the one that I identify with. And I'll probably even roll around in the world that way, right?

Mhm.

So, I mean that's quite interesting, That's where you get the idea of tantra is the path of transformation. That has multiple levels of meaning, too. But, you know, when you get a practice like this, it's the idea I'm going to transform myself into that figure. So, I suppose if you were doing tantra, you know, we were going to like create tantric Christianity, I would become Jesus. People would feel that might be heretical.

Yeah, oh, yes.

But, you know, that would be a tantric approach, right? And you can take that for whatever it's worth. You know, I'm not trying to be heretical to people who have Christian beliefs or anything, but that would be the tantric attitude, right? The same way I'm going to become Shiva. I'm going to become that that figure, right? That's the maybe the the Buddhist tantra twist, which is if you're not familiar with it, it's kind of different. If you've never heard that before, you're like, oh, okay. I'm going to become that thing? Yeah, that's the idea, right? And, you know, if you again, like a lot of the tantric things in you know, India deve- developed kind of counterculture, right? They were things that developed, you know, as responses to other religious things, and they would incorporate things from the major religions, and they were obviously meant to be things that were helping people who maybe grew up as followers of other religious practices, and they do this twist. And the twist would be spirituality with a twist. The twist would be gin and tantra. Uh the twist would be, okay, now you're actually going to imagine that you become Jesus, right? That's how strong your identity is with this figure. So, in that in a way of like belittling the power of that spiritual figure, but like I'm going to become that thing myself. I'm going to take on that thing of becoming that, right? So, I I have had the thought before like if you had a like a movement like that, if you had a real tantric movement in the United States, you'd have to take the figures that people identify with, and you have to say, okay, now I'm going to become that thing. I've had that thought before. And maybe that brings it home on some level.

Yeah, no. I mean, yeah. You're You're empowering yourself with the uh I'm not going to say in a negative way, but the grandiosity of the being you know, the being in which you are I you know, working with.

Divine pride in appearance they call it, right? In the tantras. I mean, they have this feeling, okay? I might be walking around like just Eric. But, you know, in my spirit, in my psyche, in my mind, I'm like say JC, right? And that's what I'm embodying. Or the one that I like, you know, has a lot of like kind of Shiva Shakti kind of vibe to it. So, you know, then it was it's pretty obvious they were like, okay. Well, you know, you're going to become the divine figure now, right? And that's that's a twist. Especially what they call highest yoga tantra. The different levels of the tantra. Sometimes you're more connecting to the external uh spiritual figure. We're used to that, right? This is when they you get to the what they call the higher levels of tantra. Now, now, I'm going to transform myself into that. And again, I've wondered about if we could ever get I mean, again, it feels heretical. I don't know how it felt to the people back in India when these things were being developed, whether it felt heretical to them. I'm going to become Shiva? What are you talking about? You know, but it's a bold position if you really think about it.

But, Eric, it's it's it's also important for people to, you know, who are listening to this who are like, well, what does that mean? You're not only appearing as that being. You are acting as that being. You are performing as that being. You are feeling as that being. You are thinking as that being, or at least making the attempt to do so. So, that it's it is not just an It's not only a mask. It's not Halloween. It is in It's taking on the nervous system of that being. It's taking on the mind process of that being, which in order to be able to do that, you know, the practitioners are consistently and constantly familiarizing themselves with the state of being as that being. And so, in one sense, you are loosening the grip on your own particular set self, on your own sense of self. You know, as Lama Glenn so wonderfully puts it, uh temporary localized phenomenon, meaning you as Eric, me as Daniel, listener as yourself. You begin to loosen the chains, the knots, if you will, probably better said as knots. You loosen the knots of the individual individualized self, and then you can kind of morph yourself into this other being. And And, you know, I heard I forgot who it was who was talking, maybe Lama Yeshe, but I'm not quite sure cuz it's a pretty somatic view of things, and they were saying that you are upgrading your nervous system to be a greater source of sensitivity by taking on the nervous system of these deities. So, it's not just like, what does it feel like to have two arms? No, what does it feel like to have four arms or eight or 32 or or 16 or whatever or legs or how many faces Do you know what I'm saying? Or to be two two beings at once. How does it feel like to be bathed in passion or to be an emanation

practices where you're imagining yourself as a couple in embrace. Like, you're trying to embody the feeling of both members of that couple. You might be identifying with one more than another then depending on your object of attraction and how you identify, but you're also trying to feel all of it.

Yes.

You're trying to feel all of it.

Yeah. And so, in this way, you're you're increasing your capacity to feel, period. Mhm. Right? Which which pushes your limits more and more and more. And I think, you know, pushes your limits for everything. Pushes your limits for compassion, pushes your limits for intellect, pushes your pushes your limits for sensation. But, you know, it pushes your limits.

Yeah, and when they say nervous system, sometimes what they'll mean is like not just like the the more gross level nervous system that connects back to your brain, sometimes they mean like the subtle nervous system, the part that you think of as being chakras and channels

Mhm.

in a yoga tradition. And there are definitely our practices. Again, we're freestyling this episode just to like do a conversation, so we're flowing different things, but you know, um there are practices that I do, you know, are my main ones that have to do with like transforming all of those different chakras and channels into divine images.

Mhm.

So, if you take those as being equally real to the nervous system that connects back to your brain, you know, then you say, "Well, this is just as real. Chakras and channels just as real as acupuncture is as the acupuncture channels that flow through the body. We take all those things as being real. We'll take the chakras, we'll take that nervous system, and we'll transform that into all of this divine energy. So, you're transforming that aspect of the nervous system, too. And that's a tantric practice, right?

Mhm. Mhm.

And I think that was I mean, if we talk personal, that was very interesting. I really wanted to do those

Yeah.

as someone who came as a medical person, you know, cuz we spend so much time dealing with like the physical body.

Yeah.

And uh I wanted to do the things that dealt with the more subtle energetics. It was fascinating anyways, you know. Our day jobs were acupuncturists, herbalists, right? Traditional Chinese medical people. So, that was fascinating. But, also the idea of like, you know, when you spend a lot of time just working with the physical body, you know, it kind of carries a lot of weight, so to speak.

[laughter]

Uh sometimes it like for me it's carrying too much weight. But okay. But it becomes very real. And I was interested in the idea of like, okay, you know, what's it like to tap into this more subtle energetics? And to feel those things just as real. That was very meaningful me for me as a TCM you know, traditional Chinese medicine person, you know, thinking about the body, but then thinking about those more subtle aspects of what make up a person. That was pretty fascinating for me. So like I I tried get those practices. They're also like in the school of the Dalai Lama, which is kind of like my home base, probably say Daniel, one of your home bases, too.

Mhm.

Um, you know, those practices are really emphasized, you know, that they're very important to do cuz they have these very strong transformative effects because of transforming this subtle nervous system.

Yeah.

So, Eric, in in, you know, for brevity's sake, how did how did you want to tie this into uh, Jung's idea of the diamond?

Yeah, so we can and maybe this is going to be a little two-parter for us. You know, we only got a few minutes left for today. We got our time limits for the day. Um, but I think that the diamond thing is interesting and I'm you know, we're not the only people to make this observation. People have written whole books on this.

Yeah.

The archetype and the diamond thing are both interesting cuz people do see the connection to this kind of spiritual practice. And uh, things that Jung was talking about. So maybe we won't be able to do all of it, but we can do some of it. And maybe we'll do a little continuation for another short episode. But the idea is like, well, you brought up Tara, right? As a figure that you can resonate with as a kind of a like a a spiritual uh, a spiritual meditative deity, but also like a force in the universe. So they're both internal and external in a way and Jung is playing with that. But also they tend to have when people look at this through the Union lens, they have like archetypal properties to them. So, we haven't done full archetype in a weird way we started talking about the diamonds first. But, Jung has this idea that there's all of these archetypal images, too. The We've mentioned it here and there, but the archetypal image of the mother or the father or the female, the anima or the animus, or like the lover or a trickster or a power animal spirit of like a buffalo or, you know, a bird or whatever. These are all archetypal things in Jungian thought. Cuz he got very interested in like anthropological stuff, traditional cultural attitudes, astrological things, you know, and so he was interested in all these very primary images. And so, when you talk about someone like Tara, to bring it back, you know, you can think of her in different ways. You said a nurse and a healer, also the great mother. This kind of like the connection with this. She has a maternal feeling. And I do a little Tara every day, most people do, you know. Um and I got some you know, there's different kind of versions of Tara that you can get connected with. But, in any case, um you know, that's people would say, "Well, that's connecting to something from a Jungian point of view that's archetypal as a mother energy." Right? And so, that's kind of how it ends up connecting to Jung, too. This idea that you have these archetypal figures in the Tibetan tantra culture if we're kind of taking that, but across the world, right? Where you're tapping into these figures that have like an archetypal resonance with them. So, if we were to put on our Carl Jung hats, we would say, "Okay, what's happening here? We're tapping into the power of the archetype of like the mother when we try to imagine ourselves as Tara." All loving, all healing, all nurturing, you know, willing to like, you know, exude all of this love, compassion, and concern for like everything is being her child or something, like embodying that. And that's very interesting then. You know, like I know um uh people who really connect to Tara, who are you know, again, like practitioners. And you're like, "Okay, that's their archetype." Cuz that's the one that they feel most deeply. And so, in that sense, part of it's the idea that you'll find the archetype that has a resonance with you as you go into this, right? You tap into the one that really speaks to you. So, maybe if you're really into the idea of like power and strength and perseverance, maybe you'll connect to that buffalo-headed Yamantaka. That might really speak to you, right? It has a very strong kind of power animal feeling to it, right? It has a shamanic feeling. You could feel really connected with that. That might be the one that might be your home base. It's likely that you'll do a number of these, right, when you're in this tradition, cuz you want to tap into the feelings of these different archetypal sources, being Jung, right? But then, you know, the idea is also that you'll probably have ones that will resonate more that you're probably like, "This is my home base." You know, this is the one that I really feel. With the diamond then, it becomes like, "Well, isn't that kind of ending up a little bit like a spirit guide for you?" In the sense that you're trying to embody it, as you said, Daniel, or transform into it, right? But also, there becomes the idea like it's not entirely just you. You also have connection to this outside force. Whatever this means, this is obviously very tough when we're talking about Jung, right? But like that yidam also, in a way, becomes not only what you're transforming into, but also kind of a spirit guide for you, right?

Right.

And this is, you know, Jung in his active imagination parts would be like, "I'm going to journey internally. I'm going to use my creative imagination to do this, and I'll tap into these inner figures." Which, in many ways, Jung thought were what are they? They're psychological on some level, but he also thought they transcended even his own psyche. They were things that were transcendent of himself, too, that he was tapping into. And that's something for us to explore in future episodes more. But, you know, really famously, he kind of connected to his inner spirit guide, who was a character called Philemon. And Philemon was like a wisdom figure, appeared to him like an older guy. But, he also had part of what you were talking about, Daniel, features that were if you want to say shamanic or whatever, he had wings, right, of like a kingfisher. So, he wasn't entirely just a human figure. He was something that also embodied these symbolic elements that you were talking about before. And, you know, however Jung thought about that, you know, he had these wings. He could transcend the mundane, or he could go between the worlds, or whatever's going on there. And so, you know, that was Jung's, again, very personal experience of this. Ultimately, he shared this in this text called the Red Book. Right? And it becomes part of like what he personally experienced and what he was trying to share, right? And that has, again, a kind of like a a yedam-like feeling to it on some level, right? It's a spirit guide. Um and then maybe I again, it's interesting. We'll go a little further with him in future episodes, what he thought about the transformation process. But, in a certain sense, you could identify with that Philemon, feel it personally as a spirit guide for you, and then also feel that kind of strange transcendent feeling that that figure is not just something that's a psychological thing inside of you, but it's also a sort of like something out in the world that's like a spiritual force, too. And Jung's willing to go there, ultimately, right? He was nervous about going there. But, I think as he got to the end of his life, he got more and more sharing of this with patients and colleagues. And now, of course, we have his stuff now, where he really We have all We have access to all of that material. He was obviously really exploring what this meant. So, there's some of the comparisons with the diamond.

Perfect.

Yeah, okay.

a I have a a a little story.

Awesome.

Um so, you know, I've hosted some retreats, uh some medicine retreats, of course, outside of this country in lands far, far away where they're that those situations are totally legal and totally culturally acceptable.

Yeah.

Um and [clears throat] in in one of these, uh medicine ceremonies, I was assisting and uh one of the participants, who himself was a veteran and had seen uh combat and was really working through some of his PTSD with uh various plant medicines, which, you know, are really great for that kind of trauma. So, obviously in a you know, in a controlled setting and and with proper integration and so on and so forth. It's not just, you know, we're not just ripping out in someone's backyard, you know, taking a bunch of random things hoping for the best, you know.

You're a real advocate of like you do it in an authentic setting to where you

Do it in an authentic setting with proper preparation.

wisdom behind it and so on.

Yeah, and and assistance afterwards, you know, is the key. If you look at the totality of someone's experience, these moments are few and far and between and can actually be quite transcendental if they are properly held and then that space is properly cultivated moving forward. Much like anything else, you know, you're given a great piece of advice. If you don't put it to use, it just, you know, something that you know, falls off the wall. So, anyways, he the next So, you you do this you have the experience at night and then the next morning you come back together as a group and you talk about your experiences the night before to kind of help the the facilitators understand, you know, how things went for you and then how to adjust for the and upcoming ceremonies and so on and so forth. So, uh one of the participants, this again, this guy was a veteran, talked the next morning after uh ceremony and said, he goes, "Daniel, every time that I looked at you, I I couldn't see your face." And I was like, "W- What What were you seeing?" He's like, "It's kind of weird, but I saw you as like this like bull with these horns and these like burning eyes." And he's like, "And sometimes it He's like, "I know it was dark and I know that I was out of it." He's like, "But I couldn't tell it was you." He's like, "And it was kind of scary actually." And so, I showed him a picture of the one character that you were mentioning earlier, Yamantaka. And his eyes just got so big. He's like, "How'd you know?" And I said, "No, not how did I know, how did you know?"

Yeah. Yeah.

That's the bigger question. How did you know? So, it goes to show that was one of those really deeply synchronistic moments. Um, where you know that you that we have connections, karma whe- whether you want to call them karmic or you want to call them mer- like a meritocracy, meaning you've done enough practice that this thing is in and around your uh existence or maybe you are a manifestation of that thing. I I'm not quite sure where one starts and the other one uh ends, but that other people can see it or they can feel it. And I've heard this a couple different times in some various settings. Some with medicine and some with meditation only.

Yeah. Yeah. Um,

to to see that and to hear that and to to feel that as it occurs, it's a really deep sense of like, that's cool.

Yeah, it's cool. It's cool.

Of all the things that somebody could have said, they said that.

[laughter]

You know? Like

they that that a- that's more than a coinkidink.

Yeah, it's far more than a coincidence. He didn't see it was a squirrel.

[laughter]

Or as a dolphin.

Nope.

Nope. Yeah, it's very interesting. It kind of like it's complimentary to everybody involved in the sense of like and and then that divine figure too to be a presence, but like he was in a head space to see that. You were in a head space to manifest that. And then, you know, the the figure is also making itself presence in the lives of the people who are get to benefit from it. So, it's like a

Yeah.

triple whammy or something. It's quite interesting. Yeah, that one was always very interesting. We have a teacher you mentioned earlier Lama Glenn, Glenn H. Mullin, one of our beloved teachers and he's like a real Yamantaka person.

Mhm.

He has that vibe to him. And I remember uh you know, you and I known each other for a long time. We met way back like I don't know. How long ago? 15 years ago or something? But I remember we were talking about these things and I was like trying to get a feel of like if you know, is this something Daniel may want to do and then what would be a thing that he would identify with and we would be out. I remember

[laughter]

we were out just grabbing some brunch or something.

Mhm.

And uh the Yamantaka isn't my main practice though I've done retreat on it. You know, I've been thinking maybe I should empower in it cuz I've done the retreat, but anyways, uh maybe I should do that again at some point. Uh cuz you can if you've done a retreat, you can kind of do your own empowerment ritual and I do two a month. Right for the retreats that are close to my heart, the practices that are close to my heart. But anyways, we were out. We were having our brunch and I was like every once in a while I would imagine these horns appearing and they would be on fire or something and you kind of had that vibe. You could tell I was doing that. [laughter] And I was like, okay, yeah, this is Daniel's, right? This is going to be one of the ones that's close to Daniel's heart though we might have multiple obviously.

Yeah.

Okay, this is something that is has a the feeling of the shamanic power, you know, the shamanic transformative power, you know, that's you know, part of that particular figure. I was like, "Oh, that's a Daniel one."

Mhm. I think, Eric, the other part about this that's cool, and then we'll we'll wrap, is that like, even though there are very clear images that are drawn and described, so the drawings come from the descriptions that are the texts, because drawings are subjective to artists and so on and so forth, it doesn't necessarily mean that the way that something is drawn or presented by a different artist means that that is the only way that that thing presents to you as the practitioner. So, there might be some, you know, kind of features that they want you to focus on as a in the practice, cuz they're helpful for you and and for your attention, but that you ultimately your sense of creativity and ownership of the practice is going to alter A, not only the way that it appears, but B, the the way in which that you connect with it based on its appearance that is an emanation of how you see it. You'll have a familiarity with it, and I think that personalization of this practice, of this medicine, really, is one that is very unique, and I don't even know if it's shared with many other traditions if I'm thinking about, you know, Christianity, there's so many arguments about, you know, what Jesus looked like, and you know, you and I always talk about our Gnostic Jesus, and I like to say that my Gnostic Jesus is like a 6'4" Jamaican man with dreads. Like, that's, you know, who's just chilling, smoking some weed, like likes to surf, you know, like that's it, cuz it's chill.

That might be like the flexibility of that spiritual figure, whatever Jesus is, right? We can all identify or connect with him in different ways. But what for every reason there's a flexibility that and people saw all kinds of different

Yeah.

versions of that, right? That could be one that you could resonate with.

Mhm. Mhm.

Um I mean like as far as Jung goes, he connected to this gnostic philosopher inside of him, Philemon.

Mhm.

He saw him as a gnostic philosopher with these extraordinary feature of these wings and all of this other stuff that was sort of transcendence of the of the mundane, obviously, or whatever way you want to look at that. But he was like he was a gnostic figure that he found inside of him, you know, that became this this diamond for him.

Yeah.

Right? And like Yeah, I don't I Yeah, it's there's something about that. And then it's very personal, obviously, but also like it's not personal in a way, too, cuz he's a gnostic figure. It's not like he's not uh you know, also like tapping into something. Philemon and Jung both tapping into something that's transcendent of just maybe a smaller kind of identity of himself. He was tapping into something that was bigger.

Mhm.

It's trippy.

It is trippy.

It's very trippy. But anyways, that's that's kind of the Jung connection and and we can we can take this forward as we go in different ways, but it's there is one, you know, and we're not the only people who pointed it out, but I think we had a really good conversation exploring it. So

Yeah, I think so, too. I think so, too.

Yeah.

Good work, my friend. Thank you.

Thank you, Daniel.

Audience, thank you for tuning in. Uh as do all the things everybody asks you to do, right? Like, comment, subscribe, share episode with a friend, leave a review. Uh everything helps out, you know? So this is a labor of love. We We do enjoy doing this. We uh love to hear from everybody. So please uh send us an email if you'd like to, talking [...] or giving compliments, or just, you know, whatever. Uh ginandtantra@gmail.com. Find us on Instagram at the ginandtantrapodcast. ginandtantra.com coming to very soon. Uh Substack coming very soon. So, uh, be on a lookout for, uh, a little bit more from us. And we appreciate everybody. For Eric, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys at the next one. Peace.