foreign ERS those of us like our spirituality with a Twist we are back in our series of episodes exploring the Mysteries and structural details the psychology of relationship and uh as we're doing it we're taking the chance to talk about some of the really interesting psychologists just based on kind of like a little weird turn of serendipity that we got like three people we can talk about who all have a different I know Focus or theory of relationship or something so we looked at Freud and now we're going to look at the mysterious and interesting and controversial I'll be fascinating Wilhelm Reich are you familiar with him at all Daniel what's your a little bit but we also looked at you know we touched on uh Esther Esther Pearl Esther Peril with Esther perel Esther perel yeah we did her last time and actually surprisingly when I mentioned her name there was a number of people who were very familiar with her oh yeah she's really popular yeah so gotta give her her and we could do uh I mean I mean if it comes down to it people want us we could do even a separate episode I wouldn't mind diving back into making captivity a little bit more but I think we captured kind of the essence of it yeah I think so too so for if you're listening to this yeah like a 10 10 minute 10 Ted Talk version of it or something like that yeah pretty much so if you're listening to this and you and you haven't heard that one and you're interested in in Esther perel's you know our take on kind of her stuff you can check out uh that episode I think I called it the uh antidote to monogamy yes that's herbating in captivity thing right yeah yeah antidotes alchemical antidotes to monogamy yes that's right yeah we'll do more of that as we go yeah it's kind of like yeah and doing this is to kind of like share some stuff and then hopefully also talk about things that could make people's lives better including ours correct right yeah so um you know what really struck me about doing this one and I talked about the beginning of last episode I just mentioned again because I did another kind of deep interview I've been actually really talking with people you know so this has been kind of a fun one for me one that I've been thinking about for a long time because we knew we were going to do this series maybe since the very first time we for the very first time we sat in front of a mic that we're eventually going to talk about a bunch of stuff uh and we talked about a lot of interesting things along the way getting here so it's been totally fine but um I've been really talking with people kind of deep and I realized that in a lot of ways you know I'm a clinician and so case studies are really fascinating to me I like the idea of understanding who people are and I realize how much that influences how I think about what we do here you know whether you're the case study or I'm the case study or we have people on who are the case study or we talk about people who are the case study we're all trying to like maybe learn from each other's experiences right and this has been like really kind of interesting for me just looking this realizing yeah I really want to learn I want to see other people's experiences are and it's a case study way of thinking because you know we're clinicians at heart right yes and uh I think that's the reason why you know uh I thought about check off the great writer who is a writer and a doctor you know that's what you see when you're a doctor you look at people's lives really deep right that's when they're like a real powerful way to learn plus it's kind of fascinating so so I interviewed one of my favorite um self-proclaimed serial monogamous the guy from uh like I hit we had talked deeply in the past so we hadn't talked in a long time and he's kind of someone from my you know previous free traditional Chinese medicine life and I thought okay he's a fascinating person to talk to because it's one of the people who really like identified with with the role he was like Yep this is me I thought okay cool I want to talk with him about this and luckily enough I got a chance to have a really long conversation with him last week prepping for this so I'll save that for our little case study okay right for this one because he had a lot of interesting experiences to share yeah and that guy you know I said like okay it's cool for me to talk about this and he was like yeah well don't mention my name and whatever and I was like I'm not gonna do that obviously yeah like I'm not going to mention yeah I wouldn't give even his initials yeah if they happen to be uh you know uh TR I wouldn't do that I'm not doing that crazy sorry Teddy Riley slicking through my old high school yearbook there is right there um all right anyway so the person of the day is this Wilhelm Reich who's not as famous as the other people we're going to talk about I don't think like a Sigmund Freud or a Carl Jung those are the two main people but you know still a really interesting person and really fascinating I think for those of us who are also interested in like the psychology and the connection to the body which I know is a major interest for both of us especially you Daniel right so um so I'll give a little background on this and you jump in however you want right yeah so Reich was a protege of Freud's he had like all these people around him back in Vienna and like Carl Jung was one of these people too reich's interest though was really ultimately in the end in how the psychology the person the psyche the person and the body interact would probably be a way of summarizing what he actually came to came down to and what comes up with some of his other ideas as we go but I think that'd be the main thing you'd have to say it was like fascinating about him he also got to the idea that he was really interested in sort of what we would call Chi or Ki if you want to be a little Japanese or Prana if you want to be a little uh Hindu or something like biological energy right so he's one he's a rare person who just from a totally sort of European point of view Without Really apparently talking about anything from east of wherever you know he never went East at all in his life he just kind of realized like oh there seems to be this biological energy who knew so he's really fascinating for that he seems to come up with it just as kind of his own idea and he was just like yeah there's energy in the body there's this biological energy and it's just a thing and we don't necessarily recognize that in Europe but uh it's a thing so you know kind of amazing dude right so we'll go through and we'll kind of look at this whole thing but it definitely fits into the idea of some of the things you brought up in recently in episodes Daniel like the body keeps the score and all that he might be the original like scores body keeps the score guy yeah the original goalkeeper of this right um he's also you know as we've been talking a lot interested in the repression of emotions yeah but maybe in a wider range yeah we've been on this on on this for a minute actually we've mentioned this in a number of different episodes well you had the whole uh existential Guardian operating system thing where it comes up a lot there right yeah I mean it comes up and actually then like even when we were when Christian and I did the episode on our kind of men's Retreat we talked a lot actually about that one of our uh one of our listeners uh our our sort of you know good people uh texted me and had sort of brought brought up the fact that like you know she was really proud that we had brought this up but that in addition I was talking about people's way in which they act socially is modified on probably unknowingly by their ego in some way their defensiveness in some way oh yeah for sure right yeah and so like it it it's interpersonal and that like we're doing this kind of a press repressive thing in relationships as well as how we've been talking about it for the last couple weeks or the last couple episodes maybe better to be said that way but then that people are also doing it on a larger scale trying to make themselves fit in but probably not even aware of it actually so it's always sort of there this um this level of repression is just kind of like uh up and down depending on the situation you know yeah yeah like you know we both I think feel very strongly about this as long as that's happening it's really hard to get a good view of like who you really are yes right if the goal of the podcast in many ways like why we bother doing this and having these discussions reaching out to people and people reaching back to us is um because you know you want to find out who you are it's very hard to find out who you are if you're buried under a bunch of other stuff right yeah you can't see the Clear View so in the like the Freud thing this is the defense mechanisms right yes when people are repressing it creates a bunch of weird [...] and people will act strange and you can see that in maybe like one-on-one interactions but like why wouldn't that also be true in like social media of course people are going to act weird totally you know and probably even weirder there than they would in other places or wherever that might be you know all of this social stuff and it's fake completely fake everybody knows it you know I was talking with the students I can't remember the name of the book you might know it more off the top of your head you know part of the point of the book was just to say like everyone else's Social Media stuff is just as much [...] as yours completely you know so all those smiling pictures and all those things are all fake I mean not every I can't say everything is fake you know so there's some people you know I'm more willing to like I'm more willing to like uh uh shoot big on that particular question you're more moderate but that's cool well you know I mean some people all of it fake I'm not saying that yeah not all of it is fake and some people my son did well in the chess tournament if I were to post like by something great in the chess there you go you did great and I'm happy for him that's very strange that's very true let's not get lost on this road because we'll be here forever no I'll agree with you I I'll concede the point Bible I have a deep concern about this yeah this psych back yeah we both do I had the psych background and it's very clear you know you build up this self-concept Carl Rogers we're going to talk about him too yeah some fake version of yourself and it like runs away with the show there's a real danger of that and it's a magnet it's magnified it's magnified via social media because you can literally be in it well you are an avatar and then they offer the you an option of making an avatar of your already fake created self you know and so it's just like a fake version of a fake version of you and uh and then yeah unfortunately there's no the thing is like when you post stuff or when people write things there's no context because people don't want to write this like you're not going to read 10 paragraphs of someone's day just to get to the one good part they're gonna just post good part and then they're moving on or bad part and they're moving you know or annoyed part but there's no context because people don't they're not there for that they're there for a quick update and literally quick like instantaneous update on Whatever It Is Well confession my connection to this world is like practically nothing you know right you know so anyways I am looking at it kind of like this from an outside perspective I'm like well okay this is how it looks but you're right it's also not there's sincerity there too I'm not going to say it's all about that but I could say regardless of whether it's sincere or fake or whatever the amount of time that you're going to invest on the receipt on the recipient side is minuscule and everybody knows that so they have to do something to get you updated quick attention grabbing right exactly well you know yeah I'm sorry yeah you just so you lose the context of the thing that you're trying to connect with people on and the context is what makes the thing important in the first place yeah yeah well you know we did these episodes on uh Eric fromeman love back in the day if we talk about our relationships and you know it's so funny because he's writing in like the 1950s and 60s and he's like you know the whole problem with this American culture is people are constantly going to be in the position of selling themselves um you know it's so driven in the culture that you're constantly trying to sell you know and so you're gonna try to like uh develop some kind of persona of who you are to sell so you sort of like think of like okay what's the thing that will be I can make that we'll sell myself to other people and he's talking like in the 1950s and 60s let alone like now right there's so much like uh development of like uh artificial Persona you know avatars to sell yourself right it's confusing for people probably in the end right it's confusing for me yeah I'm confused by these people I'm never on this stuff well you know so and it's like okay anyways yeah we could talk about we could bash this [...] forever yeah anyway so the repression motion so the thing in like Reich that I think you and I will both appreciate like and Freud he has so much of an emphasis on sexuality and probably aggression but in Reich he makes it a little bit bigger where he starts talking about people refreshing not only things have to do with sexuality but and anger maybe an aggression but also fear and sadness he talks about a whole range of repressed emotions that make it I think a lot more interesting and a lot more deep you know and I'm sure we both agree that this is more of a reflection of what it is people are repressing kind of the whole range of these things right you agree yeah yeah I agree with you okay um yes we got that thing where he makes it much more interesting you know and then the other thing he does I think that's really interesting Daniel I guess it'll like see how this fits into your existential Guardian operating system way of framing this would be he talks about how this repression and the experiences that create the repression also create the person's personality like in a uh potentially like obstructive way where your personality isn't like a true reflection of who you are it's sort of creating that that ego sting or something you know so there's this repression of um whatever these uncomfortable emotions are sure it's also going to go into the body but he's like I think one of the first people to say like well this is what creates people's personalities now the personality is created this whatever we call personality this is probably what we're really talking about you know and then he kind of goes farther and he says well there's probably then types of people based on similar kinds of experiences you know in a certain culture or having certain kinds of experiences that will build up sort of what he calls character types which is kind of like saying personality types or something yes so this part of it that's kind of individual we each have our own unique experiences but because I think the what he's trying to say is because you're in a certain context you're talking about context earlier right because you're in a certain context yeah you're going to share a certain overlap with other people and it's going to develop a certain kind of personality type and this is how you get to personality types but a lot of it's based on all this repressed stuff right and so he's really interesting because he kind of takes a different psychological stance then he says well the thing is we can go back and we look at people's pasts and it's not like he's saying that there's no value in that you can get a value out going back and looking okay what happened when I was young and what caused these things and so on so that's good you know again no one's like saying that isn't doesn't have value to it but he says you know maybe what you get even more like kind of bang for your buck out of it would be to go to and look at like who you are now and look at like where your personality ticks and quirks and where the problems in yourself now and then even if those are rooted in the past okay but let's look at the now and look at how this person is presenting like in the moment now your emotions your thoughts your behaviors your physical body like in the present as opposed to always trying to look and say what what caused this in the past and we can dig around there and maybe get value out of that but let's like make sure that we don't lose track of the fact that we're trying to go through and look at the personality that was created in the now the existential Guardian operating system of the now that's the thing that we have to start teasing apart as opposed to just kind of like looking back of like how some of this stuff might have been created I thought that was really interesting you know that change of emphasis or something you know he's not trashing the idea that these things come from the past but he's pointing out like you better take apart what's happening in the present otherwise you'll just spend your time muddling around and things right yeah I mean I think you got to do both though you know he's not saying like it's it's not saying it's either or totally right right but he's just putting the pre he's putting the onus on not just digging for the sake of digging yeah I think his critique was people spend a lot of time digging around in the past and they don't look at the present that's the critique right yeah I feel like you know I feel like you kind of have to do some amount of what do you want what do you want to call it reflection or you know conscious integration of your previous you know versions of yourself right in order to see the patterns that are that are that are live with you that are affecting the present and then once you have some idea of that then you can start to I think then you could start to work because without it then you're sort of like shooting blind you know you're trying to deal with this aspect of yourself or that aspect of yourself but you don't really have some of the pieces that might be just putting the fuel to the fire you know other stuff in the past you mean yeah yeah yeah yeah so again but you but then again the the drive to look and search and try and Pull Apart oh look here's the one piece that's gonna make no it doesn't work like that it's not one thing that made this way it's like a multitude of things on top of a multitude of things that you know you have choices and Karma and and Circumstance you know that all helps so I think in order to kind of find the threads that have grown that are influencing that are talking that are being with us right now come from some place and it it's it behooves us to try and find as many of those at least major threads as possible so that you can have an idea that like maybe not all of this is quote unquote my fault you know because I like I'm I'm All About and as you are taking responsibility of who we are and how we are then again some things have totally been imprinted upon us in our genetic and you know are inherited that we are we inherit those behaviors and yes they manifest for us in this lifetime but they're given to us and so I can only take responsibility from what I'm responsible of at this particular point and the more I think for myself that I become aware the greater that I can take a Viewpoint as to how I was influenced and then make changes on an even larger scale not just necessarily my response to you know getting kicked in the balls at the age of six you know yeah yeah that's a it ended like I was ready to say something and then it got kicked in the ball into the age of six and then I froze but in any um that would be a that'd be an unpleasant experience right yeah for sure if it was on accident it still wouldn't do it still would be unpleasant that's right I was gonna say like you know I think for you because we always spend this time talking and like I think you're very worried about like people walking around with a lot of self-blane yeah I don't think that helps like you're walking around like people killing their self-esteem by walking around with self-blane that doesn't that's not gonna do you any good either so I think what maybe what Reich is doing that spoke to me and I do see this as maybe being potentially a thing if your whole he's talking to other people who are doing psychology essentially right are there people who are being clinicians are trying to help people and like if your whole way of looking at things is supposed to dig around in the past you could spend a lot of time like digging around in the past but uh uh and I you know you know practically that this happens you know like you have a friend they go into some kind of psychotherapy and they're sitting around digging around in their past and digging around in the past and digging around in the past as an outside Observer you could very easily step in and say well you got some issues like right here right how about now like now yeah you know like you can go back and talk about maybe like your mom wasn't nice to you in a certain way and whatever you know okay if that's your model you're gonna spend all the time doing that but like yeah you might we all know people but this is like I think your issue is like this your job sucks right yes ruining your life yes your relationship is terrible and you gotta look at that or maybe your relationship is okay but it has some problems or something that you haven't fixed yet or whatever so anyways you're going through all the psychology stuff it was very valuable for me so you know again I'm never meaning to be critical of it I got a lot from looking in my past and I still do even prepping these episodes I looked back in my past I was like holy [...] I never thought about that way before so I get totally what you're saying about integrating these things yeah and we'll share as we go but um but I think like in the end I didn't think I was actually psychologically okay until I felt good about myself in the present oh your present life has to be good otherwise you'll walk around with all these bad feelings about the past forever right they feel good about yourself in the present anyway so reich's thing would be the idea that yeah there's this sort of personality and character type thing that gets developed here right and it's really kind of like the repression of all these different things that are held inside people that creates who they are in a major way okay so on the physical side because here he's not only talking about what you normally think about in the psychology we've been talking about like you know your your emotions get affected they get weird your thoughts get weird your behavior can get really weird like what you were talking about Daniel for sure which is tied into your thoughts and emotions right that's all tied together but his deal is he brings it into the body right and it seems like he just sort of practically discovered this for himself he realized he was looking at angry people and how they uh you know I'm just pulling up my shoulders really tight for people who are listening or something and he was like wait a minute there's something wrong with their body I better like just I should probably just massage them a little bit you know what she did you know which is not what you normally that's the reason people hated him as a psychologist because he broke that touch barrier naughty yeah very bad very very bad but really probably not that big of a deal nah nah but he was like listen look at how your body's responding to these thoughts emotions and behavior so he pulled it together you know and this was like um quite epiphanous for me you know personally started doing Zen and I actually started doing this body work that was done through the Zen Center that I was a part of Yeah you mentioned you know uh that was a big deal because I started to realize oh this isn't just something in my mind or my thoughts or whatever this is my feelings this is something like physically too yeah yeah so then you know um this goes and talks about like how it affects the body and then you know the whole personality in this character thing is kind of like wedged into the body in this really fascinating way so on the Zen part of it I just wanted to like throw this out because you know there's a lot of the connection between the body and the mind but one of the really like most interesting things I heard about this that's always stuck with me is from the first Zen master I study with Jose roshi great zen master and he said this thing if you think your body and mind aren't connected that's obviously not true on the other hand if you think your body and mind are exactly the same thing that's not true either if they gave this like perfectly zeny answer to that which allows you to experience it for yourself your mind has its own when you get to like Asian thought your mind has its own thing going on it's it has its own existence it's not just like a you're not a biological robot right you're not uh AI you know walking around even though that's the attitude in the culture that a lot of people have but that's not how it is here right on the other hand though if you don't see the connection between your mind and your body well that's not right either correct right those two things are connecting each other so so anyways I thought you know just for I thought for the medically interested but maybe just I think for everybody because when you hear what he has to say about this you can start thinking about your own body your own feelings and stuff but even in that work even in that word Eric everybody yeah but that's like that's the English language it's the most materialistic language on the planet for sure for sure but we don't say that that's true you're gonna say something about that more I'm sorry man yeah no no it's it's inherent in the in the description of it you know every mind but we don't do that but we don't do that I mean what that means right people don't know yeah I mean like well I mean I got I got the bias I think it's a very materialistic culture no you're right it's a materials culture that also like doesn't look honestly at the body too I mean that's true too no we look only at one part of the body the outside in like the physical appearance of it correct I don't know who I was listening to they're like some Buddhist teacher they're like well they wouldn't be so pretty if it didn't have any skin you know well that's to get you to look more realistic at things right yeah right I mean that's that's the thing you know and so and it's true and so I think you know it's a body focused culture but it's only it's not actually I so when I went to get my tattoo a couple weeks ago I asked the uh the tattoo guy and the woman who was there who was selling um it's a good story actually she was selling what was she selling oh um hair she made she works at a dildo factory and so she could make her own stuff and print it there and so she made has these things and I'm not getting paid to say this so you know whatever but she has these things called scurbies and they're Furbies without any fur so they're hairless Furbies that you could tattoo on them you could Pierce them and they got like you know really weird bodies and whatever you know so people buy they're buying them life science or something to like for sex toys or something no she also had weird sex toys too stuff but like this was her own thing that she made how big were that the size of a normal Furby you know maybe oh I think she's tall and you know okay okay anyways so uh I'm sitting there talking to them talking to them and again I'm in a tattoo convention so there's all kinds of everything and facial modifications and body modifications and piercings and tattoos and like all sorts of you know whatever split tongues and just all the things so I I was like hey guys I have a question you know and he's he's inking me you know at this time and so I was like but I don't know if I want to ask it they're like well now you got it you can't I was like no I can't I can't they're like well now you have to that's what my daughter or my son I get so pissed off at me you know it's like yeah yeah and so I said okay fine I'll ask I said do you think the people that are here care about as much about the inside of their body as they do the outside and in unison instantaneously both of them said no yeah yeah only if they have to yeah they're like do you see that guy over there absolutely wrong or something right that's right and they're like do you see the guy over here of course he's Inked his his whole head is tattooed from his neck down to his toes his fingers everything covered piercing split tongue piercings in his face cheeks no all of everything right which is cool he's got a look to him you know for sure yeah that's cool and and like my tattoo guy was that he goes he only stopped drinking because he had to he was going to die if it didn't that's why now he cares about the inside of his body because that's what was brought to his attention and so yes that's a microcosm in one particular circumstance but I have a feeling that like that's a lot of people have to be scared into starting to care actually about the inside yeah I've gone like kind of like when you do the spirituality this I've kind of gone like two different routes on this which is why I sometimes sound a little funny I think when I first started doing this it was very Zen and Barry like Wilhelm Reich will share his stuff right yeah I know his stuff I was fascinated by like how my body had all these emotions in it that I had no [...] idea was there I mean that was really mind-blowing to me and you know a lot of us will have had that experience you know you get interested in spirituality get interested in these things also I'm like holy [...] there's all these emotions stored in this thing you know this physical aspect of myself right yeah and you're like it's it's incredible you know and I had gotten we talked about this before I know but I got my head shrunk and I learned a lot about myself and all of a sudden it was just total new it was this new Gateway into this other place I had no idea it was there like everything within the body it was so amazing right how much stuff was actually there that was also affecting and that hosakara roshi way affecting my mind it was like they were feeding back and forth between one another right so it was like incredibly epiphanous for me it was amazing like a whole new universe opened up or something so and I think that was part of what I would say is like the emphasis of like Chinese Japanese spirituality in major ways right to go through and have those experiences because they emphasize that right yeah that was thought yeah then thought and so on um and then I switched gears at some point I mean I have kabbalistic aspects of who I am too but I switched gears really going into this tantric Buddhism and all of a sudden it was more into bed it's not like they don't pay attention to the body they do but also they got much more mental yeah and you look at like how your mind affects your body so I've kind of like looked at this from like both sides I guess you'd say right yeah and um they both have had an influence on me so I guess it depends on like you know it's funny like it'll depend on which part of yourself is sort of talking in that moment or something right right might emphasize more one thing than another or something like that just depending on which part of your experiences you're thinking about that's all true yeah it's all true yeah so I guess like I get concerned about looking at how the mind influences the body but it's also the reverse they're both there okay so reich's take on this and I'll get I'll be interested to hear your medical thoughts on this Daniel so what he does is he thinks about the body in terms of like these bands from sort of like the upper parts of the body if you're more medical you might say superior but from like your head down to your toes there's these bands that are kind of going like horizontal and in each of these bands there's a tendency for people to get muscular skeletal tension like through that part of themselves that part of their body and he also see that those are tied in with certain kinds of emotions so this is kind of his take on things so he'll say something like repression is happening in these horizontal bands and if you go to somebody's head like maybe around like the occiput like the back of your neck right the upper part of the back of your neck if you spend a lot of time in fear there's a kind of a cringy thing where you kind of like maybe when you were young before you even knew you had some violent parent or something you know and you were like like doing this kind of cringe I'm kind of like cringing forward you know for the camera for the people on YouTube but otherwise you know if you're just listening that's what's happening and so you know he has the idea like well that gets kind of imprinted in who you are and you carry around this fear inside of you and there's sort of like this tension there that ultimately is trying to repress a lot of that fear so he sees that sort of like where the skull is kind of meeting the upper parts of the bones of the neck right the cervical bones and the occiput that's where sort of the sphere is kind of like at and he also sees it in the eyes it feels like a lot of people have repression of fear that you can see like Through The Eyes and you know there's kind of a shock or fear response to the eyebrows raising people being kind of stunned and frightened and he says people repress that too so he talks about these aspects you know in the head being kind of like repressed fear so I don't know if that's a hundred percent or anything you know you certainly could think of it in other ways but you can get the point of what he's trying to say he's trying to say that at some point in your life if you were exposed to let's say a lot fear fear-inducing circumstances and you weren't able to express that those physical manifestations of that fear are going to be kind of repressed right and then you're gonna have that kind of locked into the system and a lot of it has to do with like defensive movements you know that are like kind of instinctively kind of there but you had to repress so if you had like a really angry parent growing up as a kid or you're in other kinds of violent circumstances as a kid you have those fear aspects within yourself and if you really had to feel all that you know you'd have to like uh you could dig into those areas of the body and again he was doing kind of a Bodywork thing just trying to show people like look at see you're repressing these emotions and they're unpleasant right I mean like it's not no one wants to feel afraid right right so you could digging around and all of a sudden people like oh my God it's all this fear I have in myself because of whatever those circumstances were in your life that started that train and rolling what do you think I think that it's it's very interesting on a couple of different levels one is that like the body responds to a stimulus and that that stimulus then becomes the pattern to that response or to that to that thing right so like we're talking right now so in order and as a response to fear you adapt a body position whatever it might be whether it's shoulders elevated right but that you're protecting yourself essentially right or whatever you're doing right but you're it's a reaction and then that reaction helps you in the moment but then that reaction becomes imprinted on you and even though you're sort of fighting yourself fighting off that whatever it is that you were reacting to you now carry that with you every time you assume that position unless you clear that thing yeah yeah you know which is which is kind of like an interesting dichotomy yeah I mean yeah I think it's either like you go there so often it becomes kind of instinctive or he says sometimes your the physical thing is happening but it's not translating through into the emotional experience and it gets kind of stuck or something right and so the person really doesn't have the awareness between what the body's doing and like what's actually going on inside of their own emotions and thoughts it's cut off there's a disc I think that one I think that one is far more common yeah and it goes better it goes back to the my the tattoo Guy saying that the guy always stopped drinking because he almost died it takes something to like really rattle you to make you like pay attention to what's actually happening right because you're gonna get some some your body's not gonna it doesn't respond only to only near-death things it responds all the time it's just how well are you interpreting its expression well that guy's near death thing was a buildup of little smaller things absolutely I die too is the way that would be talked about right yeah I remember like learning the Zen body work and the the one guy had studied with this Famous Body worker involved in Christ but like they had like a little case study around this since we were talking about case studies where this guy would go into these seizures so no one could explain why it was did all the Western work up and for some reason there wasn't a really explanation of why he was going into these seizures eventually this guy looks very closely at his body and what he noticed was when this guy would move his eyes strongly to one side so he would like avert his gaze strongly and left or right whatever it was but he would turn really strong and his eyes would go it would trigger the seizure so it was like well what the hell is happening with this again kind of a quirky case but you know meaningful this was ruining this guy's life and it turned out that he was in an industrial accident where like something came flying at him from that side and he got hit and it got so wired in that whenever he would go and like kind of mimic a little bit of that movement that was there especially with his eyes I guess seeing the thing flying at him without him relieving being fully aware of it it would trigger the Caesar response in his nervous system you know and it had to do with like eventually kind of training him out of that so they had to like work through like okay let's get closer and closer to this position that seems to be the main trigger and they they cured him that way apparently you know so there's like you know acute trauma something really you know where a lot of cases you're talking about not something that acute if you grew up in an abusive household or something you're cringy you're cringy you're cringy right it's not like one particular event maybe right but but you have to unwant you still have to unwind that that's a similar unwinding process yeah yeah yeah so I don't know I'll go through where he felt that these emotions were stored because it might be interesting for people to hear I don't know if I like believe all of this like a hundred percent you know that exactly he nailed it with every single spot but the idea is kind of powerful right laid out you know yeah I could speak like some parts will speak to people yeah you know so he talks about repression around like the mouth the chin and the throat and he basically says there's a couple of like um uh sets of emotions probably behind this one part would be repression of things like sadness and grief or what you're really repressing is sort of like a crying reflex you know I had that comes up in like the men's group that you and Christian were doing but you know how many men can cry I don't know you know I mean is that something you all talked about um we I think everybody did shed tears everybody shed tears for for different reasons yeah somewhat some were what was an amazement and some was in sadness some was in uh during like breath work there wasn't like emotion associated with it just but the Deep movement of the body repetitively over and over and over for a long period of time just allowed the person to just do just yeah it'll just come out right without even knowing like what the heck it is yeah yeah yeah you might might not even have like a specific set of memories or you know conscious thoughts about what that was that's exactly what happened like they're like I couldn't tell you why but they just felt natural thing for me when I look at myself with this I can cry sometimes in things that are kind of like sentimental like my daughter's a little bit like this too we could watch some sentimental movie together I was like we'll be crying no there was the mayoral election in Chicago and the more Progressive candidate won in our local election here and she sent me this text and you could just tell that she was like probably crying about it you know because he was like so moved by the fact that this guy actually won you know who knows if he's gonna be good or not I don't know anything yeah much attention but she might be on any other reasons for lots of reasons but for her it was the thing of like you know she's very she she cries very sentimentally you know sure so we watch like uh Love Actually or something which we watch every Christmas so I can weep that the sentimental scenes or something you know between the guy and his son or something I'll weep you know um but sometimes it has to do with like some of the really sad emotions like uh with uh like you know death and loss sometimes it's hard for me still you know hard to fully Let It Go though I've tried to train myself to do it more yeah but then when my dad passed away and we're talking about my dad last episode I realized okay I'm gonna have to like get myself in a place where I could do this so I play guitar so I kind of my dad like Rod Stewart so I kind of like grabbed the guitar and I like and you do this with music you could listen to obviously too it's another way we do it but I happen to play so I was like playing these songs that he would like and I was trying to sing the songs and eventually they'll let me do it um you know it's not that easy so there's repression of this stuff right um and so he said that creates a lot of tension around the throat the mouth the chin right the repression of this that seems reasonable to me and the other part he says is a little bit more anger too and he says it has a lot to do with almost like why people grind their teeth or something they're actually really angry and they're repressing it which makes it Chinese medical sense too right a lot of stuff through the shoulder girdle has to be kind of angry too and we'll get to that in a little bit but a lot of this teeth grinding is kind of this repressed anger and he says it's almost kind of like biological in the sense that if you were really like being the full animal version of the body what it's going to be and we want to gnash its teeth at people right you almost want Nash or something and you of course you can't do that as a 21st century human being you're not gonna like bite somebody you know but that's kind of like there's that reflexive thing there right that's still kind of hovering in the background what do you think about that one that one so when I see this in the clinic for the TMJ in particular because that's just what you know I think I we treat a lot of we see a lot of that people have this you know yeah our teeth grinding at night I generally find it as one of two things things left unsaid or person still processing things they're still chewing on it oh you think it's like a uh I think both of those things can be true I think his anger thing could be true and this other thing could be true too yeah but yeah I hear what you're saying there's still like a kind of an activity of the mouth going on where the person still yeah and digesting and probably their mind if we go Chinese medicine this would be with Chinese medicine yeah this is the digestive system connected back into the mouth and it also connects to the idea that you like process things mentally so your digestive system processes food but also the same kind of energies within the person processes your thoughts and ideas about things so you might still be processing I think that's true there's probably a lot of rumination going on why people are so we could say yeah you could say rumination on one and or repression on the other side you know and like you're you have to clench down on your teeth not to let it not to let you know let the thing out like you're holding it in it's kind of interesting so what you were talking about earlier before we got on Mike there's a lot of people who have mental anxiety are kind of like stuck in this state right yes where they're like mentally processing and processing and processing and you said it kind of interesting I don't want to steal your metaphor do you want to share it no go ahead no you do it okay so we were before you know we were talking about anxiety you were mentioning your son's uh chess tournament this past weekend which you did very well at and then your daughter would tell them she's like oh well you know you just have anxiety and then you realize like [...] no shut the [...] no don't immediately don't don't feed that monster that is yeah we don't gotta feed that monster you know it's it's prevalent and a lot of people have literally in the restaurant my daughter started going well yeah like you just have anxiety and I was like shut the [...] up just like that do not [...] talk that way because you're just feeding into the person's concept that they have this thing for sure for sure he had anxiety would pay attention but he doesn't right he doesn't so you know and people can you could be anxious about something and not have anxiety right anxiety as a as as you know as clinicians we see people tons of people who have anxiety and so we're not saying it that it's not a thing we're just saying that like if you don't have it don't talk about the nasty monster you know like we don't have to encourage it in someone who's really young because they might start developing like thoughts about themselves yeah exactly you don't want to tell you what it's interesting I have a relative who was on a lot of meds when he was young that were very anxiety-inducing and he had this idea that he has anxiety and people kept telling him you have anxiety you have anxiety you have anxiety and it was interesting because more recently he's going like you know I don't have anxiety I just was told my whole life I have anxiety you know and like his work is really stressful and I was talking to them saying you're not anxious if you're anxious you couldn't just my voice is being funny you can even do this work right right yeah you couldn't even do it it would just be too hard for you so so my um I'm really honest I'm repressing some sadness and grief even right now we're an honest podcast oh yeah okay good I got sadness and grief I'm holding it back I'm doing the best I can with these pipes but they're they're repressing this mouth this jaw it wants to sob okay well he wants to grabbed the guitar and sing a sad song so yeah that's happening like in the instant right now and I [...] know it okay well you know hopefully uh we're we're honest actors we are um so so the analogy that I was uh that I gave earlier is that I from my perspective anxiety is the wind activation inside of the Mind the mind's activity that is a draining energetically right because your brain is just working on overdrive and it's literally using glucose it's the largest user of glucose in the body so this is number one right so that's going to have a physiological effect on you period and then moving moving deeper to like a energetic kind of psycho spiritual view Viewpoint that like the depths that the person might be wanting to avoid right and I call this the deep water right the Deep still water that the mind is kind of hovering right above it just just above it like a cloud right like some fog rolling Mist rolling right over the surface of the water swirling over and over again going nowhere right yeah and like the wind which is the anxiety just kind of keeping the cloud over the water so that the mind doesn't have to dip down on the inside and actually like be I guess I could say immersed in whatever is underneath the surface that's the major metaphor of repression right yeah yeah one of the guys I had back at UFC was talking about this famous psychologist kind of a dicey character in the end hurry Murray but he was like really fascinated with like the old book Moby Dick about the whale you know because he was like yeah that's the unconscious part of the person the whole book is about like you don't you're afraid of that thing that's in the unconscious right he didn't say spoiler alert kill it you want to destroy it 120 years old Yeah It's a Wonderful Life the angel gets his wings at the end what the [...] dude you're ruining the whole movie the whole movie now black and white 1943 Darth Vader's Luke's father no why would you Eric you just do it you're ruining Africa sorry man we're gonna get a lot of hate mail now because anyway so this whole thing of like uh this repression thing yeah the water imagery is is good right yeah and I like the idea of like the mental activity of the mind is like actually blocking the person from taking the leap correct let's see what's really there I mean that's the powerful part of that image I think right there's a swirling activity going on in the top it seems like it's doing something but it's really not doing anything it's just going around and then you can't see the thing underneath it's going around and the cost is that you're becoming exhausted which would be probably in the in the grinding who knows what those emotions are that could be underneath that water right sure grinding on it and grinding on it and grinding mine might be just ruminating but in a way that isn't really even about what the real thing is Right which is why if you go back to like Freud from like the previous things we were doing you would have people do like um uh free association right just let the Mind ramble and ramble and ramble because it wants to ramble because it's being avoidant right mamble let it ramble until eventually it's like well I I guess I can't ramble anymore I better look at the thing that I actually have to see or he would kind of say like when you're rambling and I guess in your metaphor would be like the clouds are going it'll get closer to the water and the holy [...] and it'll jump back up again okay oh oh closer to the water then it'll jump back up again right yeah because it's getting too close to the thing that's actually it doesn't want to see yeah but it's almost like the thing that you don't want to see has a certain like pulling power to it well a magnet underneath the water that's pulling the cloud down or something right there's an attractive Force back against it right and this is this is why like when we did the episodes on you know that I wanted to do on the ego is the egos that like that's part of that that defensive operating system is not is keeping you you know quote unquote safe by not dipping you in the water so it's not only like a defensive offensive system right like you're shooting missiles from a distance but it's also internally keeping you away from things that you want to be kept away from and maybe for some that's how they function so if there's a lot of trauma underneath the surface of that water that is unresolved and and so on and so forth and you don't have the space in your life or the tools or the opportunity to dig into it and you have obligations kids and whatever that this is keeping you on this is keeping things rolling now adaptive is what your point was and this is kind of true in psychology Chinese medicine they make like that's that similar point right these things can be adaptive yeah or a time or maybe adaptive under certain circumstances or something like that now we can make the argument that like we can't be self-limiting too and that's the yeah that's the whole point well that's it and then like if if you're not maybe the life would be better if you actually went through and did it right you went you went underneath the water and you had help and you kind of improved your life that that or improved your own internal state that you would improve everything else around you too right your children or whatever it was but we got to be honest and say not everybody's interested in that but not everybody's in a place where they're able to do that yet both yeah both you know well I guess not being interested is kind of a respect for people's individual autonomy exactly everyone's going to choose you know what they want to do they're gonna we're all on our own trip they're all they're going to prioritize their time based on what's most important and if that's you know working two jobs and paying for your you know it's also reasonable too you do those things then yeah I mean that's just what it is it's just not for right now it's not a priority for right now maybe later it might be but for right now it's not and there's nothing wrong that's like where like just to the Reich thing again that's why he was more of like a socialist yeah because he felt like what really happens is people are under these economic pressures and it forces them to not have the chance to look at who they are yeah and maybe that's not even just like a quirk of the system it's like it's not a bug it's a feature I would say it's a feature it's a feature they you're supposed to be incessantly involved in activities so you don't have the chance to really look at what's happening yeah yeah I would say that's the future and I would say that we've been saying that's a feature for almost three years yeah yeah I think it's almost our very first episode was about this exact point because we wanted to say like okay let's be because we started during the pandemic too right I just looked our first episode was in July of 20. crazy but when you look at it we were really kind of saying like Okay we're gonna do this podcast we're going to talk about a lot of introspection and we're going to be realistic that for a lot of people your lives are like our lives are really hectic right yeah yeah and really stressful so the amount of time that you might have to sit and you know meditate in the day might be very limited or get Fair try to make the point that there's still a value to do it right there is a value but um we wanted to make sure they show The Compassion of like looking at people like where where um where people are on the practicalities of their lives right yeah yeah yeah yeah let's continue well on the repression thing and functionality I guess I heard a weird thing that's kind of related to this I listened to this book on the Beatles it was all based on the one year in the Beatles lives like 1966 when the guy was kind of saying the band revolutionized itself you know and uh it was like maybe five bucks on Audible or something and I was like okay cool I'll listen to a year in the Beatles lives that sounded interesting you know so they're making the album revolver if you like The Beatles you kind of know some of these tracks and these songs they're gonna be making Sergeant Pepper next year so you know that's uh like two major you know groundbreaking albums for this group right and uh but uh he was like talking about their lives and ultimately John Lennon went into like a primal screen therapy and if you listen to any of the real powerful drawing London songs I played one for my son maybe like a month and a half ago or something he has a song called mother and his mother died when he was young and his father abandoned him so he had this all this pain in his life if you don't know his backstory it's like it's traumatic for sure and um in the song Mother he just howls it's like an unbelievable vocal performance and you can tell it's influenced by him doing this Primal scream thing he just whales you know as the song goes on and you can tell he's like shredding his vocal cords you know he's just like screaming on all of this so he was a patient of the guy who founded this Primal scream thing I don't remember the doctor's name but uh later on when they talk with that doctor about you know his experiences working with John Lennon he was like I don't think I've met anyone who had more repressed pain than that guy like I had more breast pain than anyone I've ever seen in my life and I was thinking about our podcast with that and I was like well okay he did the best he could with it though obviously and he accomplished a ton you can't say he didn't and he became a major cultural influence on tons of people so he directed that without stuff in ways that were powerful trying to help other people even though he was a troubled person himself and you know um and he he sublimated a lot of it and directed A Lot in the creative activity so I don't know I was just thinking about all this repression stuff you know and like the fact that it's probably functional in ways and then at other times you can break through it and he's kind of a good person for maybe looking at how someone did that right kind of respect that part of him even though he's a troubled guy you know but he did the best he could with it all right anyways repressed so I think to me the one thing about this I wanted to just mention was this and I was just talking with somebody um about this recently um in my teaching capacities but like the wood and the metal elements in Chinese medicine are both associated with these strong emotions the wood with anger and the metal with sadness and grief and so sometimes I think there's this really this experience of like not knowing whether you want to cry or like push somebody in the nose it's these two emotions and I think that kind of gets into this jaw mouth area too this whole thing of like what do you want to do I think the eyes too even though Reich is talking about the eyes having to do with fear there's I think there's sadness and anger in that too right you can cry angry tears right yeah yeah I remember when they first started doing Zen and really sitting my eyes would burn it was crazy and I had all this anger and sadness so I think that was really deep for me all right he gets the idea of the shoulder girl and so that's anger through there that makes Chinese medical sense because the acupuncture channels that go through that area are also associated with anger so that always made sense to me I thought like for me my experience of this personally was when I started doing my zen they had us do a lot of like Japanese sword forms and when you work with a sword you're going to have to like work with what's going on in your shoulder girdle just to work with that sword right and so it was sort of a technique of getting rid of your emotions getting aware of your emotions too and especially those that had to do with anger and I realized wow I had a lot of anger like kind of like through the shoulder girdle and that seems very true to me what do you think about that one that seems right to me yeah yeah well the the shoulders function much like the hips and that they're kind of like they're able to compact some emotional kind of things also because that that's where our arms insert to the Torso and so we're kind of like we hold on to ultimately we reach out or we're holding again we're suppressing or ruminating right it's going to begin and yang yeah but we're either reaching or holding but it's the movement is coming from the shoulder right that my hand at the end is what's gripping but as I'm doing this or doing this it comes from the shoulder and I had a guy who I still have my patient he does a lot of work with golfers he's very busy you and but he himself had shoulder pain and so you know I was working on it with him using needles and e-stem and you know it got better but like it wasn't improving even though like I was doing all the things that you should be doing right all the muscles the testing all this and so then I had him do a meditation where he brought his mind and we went inside of the body and I started to have him uh expresses pain and what what it felt like what else does that feel like in his life and then he found it he found what he was he was like I'm gripping on he you know I'm not going to go into it because it's his story but he said I was I was gripping on to something holding something so tight that it was fatiguing his arm his pain stopped then and it never returned and that's been about four months ago that's the Mind affecting the body though part right yeah it's interesting you know so but we have two sides of the thing I guess right right but we had to find it you know you had to it was it was in the body yeah but it had but it was totally rooted into mind thing so I was like there's this you know there's this play there there's that whole like interconnectivity happening between those things yeah exactly yeah I mean I think I was really struck by this idea like again like I had to learn how to like swing a sword and when you're like learning how to swing a sword part of what happens maybe with a golf thing too like what holds you back probably swinging it freely right isn't that the problem with the golf swing right I'm not a great golfer or anything but I did go with my dad occasionally you know like part of the things like can you really relax and let that go through and if you don't do it right it ticks or something I know that's that's how your golf professional would explain it or not but you know like that's how my dad was trying to teach me the guy like really let this go there's a certain zany aspect to it right and you let the club face just fall the right way without like and let the thing move naturally or something and so I I guess maybe it's a similar thing with the sword if you can't swing a sword right you start looking why can't I do this right I mean you start realizing oh it's like what you were talking about with your patient oh there's some [...] in here and me this movement go right so I think that's true in like you know like these athletic activities that can be true in yoga it can be true in dance right why can't I move the way I want and I was struck by the anger part so this this did make sense for me with Reich then he gets to like the abdomen and there he talks about things that are rooted kind of like what you might call like the solar plexus and the diaphragm so sort of like through the you know through the kind of the mid section of your body the midsection of the Torso he talks a lot about what you were talking about earlier like respiratory inhibition right the fact that the diaphragm won't fully move and then he feels like there's a couple of things happening there anxiety and then he feels like sadness is there and I do feel like you know people are a lot of times are repressing stop through the diaphragm because they want to cry does that make sense to you Daniel sometimes I think it's deeper under there too yeah I think it's deeper but yes deeper than sadness sadness is pretty deep the sadness is deep but there's other yeah I mean I guess I I look at sadness over blank yeah because I I I it's like well I'm sad okay well what's making you sad you know what I'm saying because I I just based on how you and I both believe I think the being to be is it like we're free of those things but they live with us and so like I'm just not sad as a normal everyday person if I am sad then there is a there's a causation for that and so finding the causation that's bringing the sadness up allows me to ease the sadness and look at the thing that did it and then work my perspective and feeling around this thing so that it doesn't affect me moving forward so here's the you know the practice of being present with what's happening like Reich would do but then also going back and finding the the the threat of the thing yeah yeah so I think that's a way to me that's the way to what you're saying about this one is if you just say sadness it just seems like a little too like generic or something like that you gotta go a little deeper you gotta go a little deeper you gotta go a little deeper yeah but so I guess like how many people like through the diaphragm are repressing this grief anxiety grief sadness thing like probably a lot right oh yeah super common and so then you write that then you might be like okay so what are we talking about the death of a parent the loss of a relationship you know um some other failings in your life or something wherever that might happen to be right and then the anxiety thing makes sense too because the diaphragm gets really tight and it just won't move and people feel this constriction right it creates attention through the chest right well then as a you know but then as a body responds to a stimulus could be to shallow the breath move the blood away from the internal organs to the limbs right as a nervous system responds to a threat or some you know heightened situation and then the Learned response is to stay in that space and not allow yourself to relax not allow the diaphragm to relax keep the blood flow out there constantly I.E you're always in a state of uh preparation like the flight kind of stuff right you're wrong that's interesting because he cares a lot about parasympathetic and sympathetic he says people get locked in sympathetic mode almost exactly what you're talking about so he has these kind of weird things like he has case studies where he talks about like the idea of like if you can just even find these spots in people it can be really revolutionary for them right I remember there's one he's specifically talking about someone who just had all of this tension about three centimeters below the sternum so if you can just find like you know kind of the bone in your chest and go down but it doesn't even matter he's talking about something like kind of in the area of your stomach right and this person had all of this tension here and just pointing that out was like again like epiphanis for that person to realize like oh I have all of this stuff here that I'm physically holding in this place that I thought was independent in my mind right well like you could go either way right if you talk about like semantization that's when you feel the body thing but you don't feel the emotional thing kind of like your golfer right or sometimes it could be like I feel the emotion but I don't see how it's rooted in the body right you can kind of Miss either side of this thing right that's kind of fascinating I guess right yeah you could kind of be missing either side you get all the physical Sensations but you don't feel the emotional component or you feel the emotional and mental things but you don't realize what it's doing to the body fascinating um so anyways this is kind of like your breath work thing because you thought this should mobilize by respiration right and then the movement would you know towards the respiration would sort of trigger where the tension is and eventually she pushed through it you'd probably feel a lot of where these emotions are kind of blocking up on the physical side getting ahead to where it's going to go the relationship thing and we're not going to get to it today because we need to talk about the medical thing but that's cool right this is sort of an interesting thing for us to do even yeah people to get what he was about and then you'll see why he talks the way he does but he does feel like you know there's a lot of like when there's a lot of tension in the system it's hard to feel a lot of pleasure so when the system is all blocked up it's hard to feel we can talk about sexual pleasure but we can even talk about like the pleasure of like love and connection it's hard to feel it because the system is so tight and blocked it can't feel the natural Pleasant feelings of those things so as long as there's this tension and in this case you know maybe block through the diaphragm or something but wherever it is it blocks and then the natural flow within the physical part of the system can experience the natural pleasure of things you know well we could say that the tension Blocks Your receptivity of experiencing positive things yeah I think that's right yeah I think captures what he's trying to say you're boxed up on those those pleasant Sensations and those pleasant experiences can even like have a chance to go because everything is too blocked right yeah yeah and he makes it like very physical right like you you can't feel the joy of like closest with someone because your body's too tight right yeah which gets to the pelvis okay so now you can get like kind of like the sexual parts now to the pelvis now we've been walking slowly down we've all been waiting to get there we knew where we started at the head where we get there eventually the moment we've all been waiting for okay so uh you know in the pelvis area um he talks a lot about what he calls like kind of a dead pelvis where people have so much tension in the abdomen the pelvis kind of the the you know the the buttocks the pelvic floor that it represses a lot of feeling now sometimes this might be repression of like sexual feeling itself whatever reason that might be for that person right some of this might be even deep things like sexual trauma you know some of this might be things like I don't know what's occurred to me like relationship pain and people have had painful experiences in their relationships and then sex gets kind of hard for them right they've got so much of this emotional connection pain like whatever this might be for that person right you can repress that but the other part he says which is really interesting from our sort of Chinese medical land as he talked about the idea of um feeling um feeling fear right and that the pelvis is a place where there's a lot of fear involved yeah and so in that fear which is like it's interesting because it that's basically kind of what Chinese medicine says you know this part of the body is kind of associated with that emotion of fear when Chinese medicine tiles it ties it into the internal organs it talks about with the kidneys and kind of the urinary system right getting in the bladder that's where the fear lives kind of but um uh yeah there's a sphere aspect of this right and then everything gets kind of like tense through the pelvis because of this so I thought that's very kind of observant of him do you buy that too yeah I mean this is similar to like the chakra system right like the first chakras you're like Vitality health and if you don't have that then you are going to be scared for your existence you know yeah yeah yeah yeah it's like the the the primary fear of every organism about just its Security in its own body or exactly yeah yeah exactly so the whole idea that you can kind of have this cut off from the from the pelvis right in Chinese medicine we like to say like the lower jhow the learner the lower Elixir field or something like that right sometimes I use that language so this lower jowl thing um you feel this cut off from like sexuality and he also feels like when people get cut off from their sexuality and somehow it like it's kind of being cut off from a major part of your identity um so he feels like you know being cut off from sexuality is kind of damaging to your sense of self or something and it creates kind of a rigidity and kind of a loss of pleasure or something like that which is probably why in a lot of these taoists and tantric meditations then they make sure that you tap into this right so you don't lose the sense of that pleasure right part of the system or if you are kind of blocked up there you learn how to like unblock it or something right so you can feel more free in this part of who you are yeah because otherwise it's all rigid and it's kind of very hard to feel yeah the pleasure of this part of the universe or something lost here right so what do you think about that anything else you feel like you want to add to that part of the system or something no I mean I think that's totally right you know with the uh different systems of meditation that you know both you and I are familiar with that's the sort of ground right that's the very beginning of the practices is the reconnection with the lower parts of your of your body you know around the pelvis the first and second chakra is the lower Dan Tien whatever you want the pelvic floor however you want to look at it but it is a lot a lot of work with this area and I think to your point it is it's con it's reconnecting someone with a sense of pleasure it's reconnecting someone with a sense of Joy it's reconnecting someone with a sense of uh positive feelings from being cut off by repression by tension by not living in that way and the one of the things I remember from you know doing the training with my teacher a few weeks ago or like now a month and change ago was that he's like you can have experiences of pleasure essentially without mediation without any other thing without any other input actually it resides completely within you and that's yeah Taoist tantricy kind of an attitude right that you can find this pleasure like within yourself yes like we're going to do stuff on like uh toxic masculinity at some point right yeah and like when the things that can go wrong there and I guess I've had these conversations with llama Glenn too would be the idea like if you're so dependent upon like an external partner as your only way to know how to feel that pleasure and connection with this part of yourself well that's very hard right because then that puts a lot of pressure on another human being right they have to be this source that allows you to connect to some part of yourself which can happen right it's this partner this sexual partner that allows me to connect to me well that's a that's an unstable situation right you have to be able to like find these things within yourself too and then you can share with your partner right but you two can both you know uh or three or whoever they are right we're being very liberal in our attitudes around things right yeah with all kinds of people who love all kinds of Lifestyles but um you know like however this works for you you can share this sense of pleasure and Reich is very aware of this he's like yeah once you can kind of free yourself more then you can share more love you can share more creativity you can share more uh sexuality and pleasure with you know other people because you're comfortable with this within yourself right but as long as it's so hinging on like necessity of another human being holy it's the only route you have well then you know you're going to have a lot of potential problems with that right yeah all right so then what he's saying is that you have these bands that run through the body so he's kind of saying that there's this like all these horizontal little places where things can get caught in a certain sense what it's really doing is it's like cutting your flow right this system wants to flow and these little bands of tension all the way through it aren't allowing the flow to flow right and it gets all blocked up and then this starts to create you know all kinds of weird internal feelings and distortions the emotions and your ego your existential Guardian operating system and all that will flow out of this thing because you're just cut off from this natural flow within this part of your being right but the weird thing is it's not just about the body it's about that interconnection we've been talking about you know because when the body's doing this you can't get the full feeling of the flow of your own emotions you can't get the full flow of the feeling of your own thoughts and kind of your own sense of like pleasure and enjoyment those things are kind of getting like damped down it's like you want to have waves going through a system that are going to be enjoyable that's always hitting against these little Breakers everywhere right the waves can't flow or something that's kind of his take on this what do you think about that idea I mean it makes sense right like there's like there's vulnerabilities in the system right it's not a it's not impervious which obviously we're not impervious or else we would have a very thick exoskeleton around us you know yeah which is probably good that we don't because then uh you know we wouldn't be good at yoga that's true yoga would be pretty difficult if you're like a a crab right yeah it's harder for the crab to do that also that's a really perfect way of putting it Eric as ambiguous I don't know if you meant it that way but it's definitely true it's also being a crab like you're a crabby person that's right yes yes that's true crap it's gonna be crappy um so this is the thing and this is basically how this list stuff with the body will ultimately connect down to what he says about relationships which would be our big subject matter of our next episode we kind of figure we're going to have like maybe two episodes on each of these people right yeah a little feeling of how they think and then we'll give a little bit about what they actually say about relationships because he really feels like you have to have the joy and pleasure of your life and if that gets bunched up it it goes in multiple ways like it isn't good for your psychological Health but also it's going to be damaging for your body and so how does relationship fit we're going to get to it yeah now so we looked at hysteria and we'll have a good chance of like looking at like what it what it specifically means all right awesome perfect that's an episode that worked out well that worked out very well it's good to talk about his stuff though in general right so yeah no doubt well and it's for people who've never heard this before it presents it in a different way that is not like East Asian theoretically related yeah yeah it's more like relates to psychology that we're probably all more familiar with right yeah yeah we get a lot more conversation about repression and our thoughts and our emotions and yeah it's good when I learned it when I was just like sex psych students psych students also working at myself all right cool awesome well announcement yeah thanks Daniel Eric as always thank you so much my friend thank you pleasure doing this um and thank you to our audience whether you are watching us you know hello if you see me there it is uh and if you're listening to us also hello but you're not seeing us you're only listening which is totally fine if uh if you are doing either of the two listening or watching uh please you know like subscribe share if you're on YouTube if you're on Apple leave us a review it definitely helps the show uh you know and send our work our you know message if you will out to people who you think might be interested uh the audience is always growing I certainly uh want to thank our International audience because it's always interesting to me you know people from different cultures who are listening to us and it's probably about a third of our audience's internet I do want to hear that from the people from the other places too so hopefully we'll get more we do yeah I had a we had a guy who reached out to our differences yeah we had a guy who reached out from South America when I mentioned the uh he experienced it and he's like no I totally know what you're talking about um so it's really cool so whether you're local or far hit us up uh Jin and Tantra gmail.com or just leave us a a comment in the YouTube video you know totally uh up to you or Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace