[Music] hey fellow G and tears those of like those of us who like our spirituality with a Twist um so we're wrapping up this relationship series I think we're doing we took a little twist in this as we like to take a little twist and the idea was to really think deeply about what it means to design a life of your own and we're kind of using Carl Jung a little bit as a case study we're also throwing I think parts of our own lives in here to talk about what it means to build a life of your own and whether or not the life that you want to build agrees with the life that I want to build or Daniel wants to build up to you but we're at least going through the process of what it feels like to do that you know so we've been kind of like going like step by step in these like Roundup episodes we're doing at the end just to talk about okay what are the values that you know a little bit I I wrote These up uh uh our team in Chicago the Bel love Chicago Bears were getting their ass kicked on a Sunday I was writing this up thinking what do I actually think what does Carl Yung think I was kind of jotting these notes down about this kind of knowing that Dana would own would uh you know put in his own thoughts on this too and U it's just kind of this interesting thing thinking okay what does it mean to really try to build a life that reflects your own point of view which is really the mission statement of the whole podcast Adventure that we're doing I was thinking about it Daniel you know sometimes when we talk about this in text between one another and we talk about this g&t thing we don't go g and T like an and sign we go g n like T N or we put a little exploding Emoji behind it uh because I guess that's how I sometimes think about this you know like a little explosion of spiritual thought or something but also like this idea of this ex like what would happen here's the thought expand we're doing what would happen if you just blew up all the these rules you just blew them up for yourself bang what would happen then like if you just wanted to start rebuilding things from the ground up what would that even look like and I was just thinking about that imagery right you just exploded it and just said okay now I'm starting from scratch what do I really think about and believe in so I you know g&t boom yeah I'm sorry it would so so like I know that's sort of a rhetorical question but I think it's one worth tackling no it was definitely a question for you okay yeah right at the outs so yeah you know it's a good question right because that's essentially what we've been we're kind of always asking this thing so yeah if you have a fear of loss and that like that is a dominating feature in your life then even the sort of thought experiment of doing that would be harrowing you know but maybe beneficial too partly beneficial but depends on how you view that depends on how you view that you know so if that's difficult for you then you might see this opportunity for Freedom as we might say on one hand as a huge opportunity for there to be like a a large gap in experience or that the the wheels were falling off or the floor was giving out or all that will be around you will be emptiness and not in the kind of blissful fully containing emptiness but like actual V vacuum you know like you'd experience a vacuum of that that state and I think as we've discussed before like you know anthropologically um if you were looking at it from an evolutionary perspective that the loss of one's Community or the loss of a a tight Bond or something like this would feel very detrimental to the success of your own uh light living right your own livingness if that's even a word because you might be ousted from it would feel maybe evolutionarily that you would be ousted from the place in which you get your nourishment from and therefore you might starve or die or you know that's kind of where our minds go to any anyway so there's maybe some physiological response to that that would be uh that would cause you not to do those things from that perspective right specifically physiologically but then I think on the other hand and again it really comes down to your perspective which is what we end up talking a lot about as working with that you might feel that there's large opportunities for you to do something different or do something similar but with a new mindset and I think you know and I'll certainly let you hear what you have to say but I think that's the one part of this that we maybe say but we don't say it enough is that like if someone was to do this or or or step into this arena in parts of their life maybe not all of it that there has to be wholesale change that's not necessarily the case you could do things similarly but as we've mentioned numerous times it's not what you're doing but how you go about doing it and so if you approach it from a different perspective but it looks externally like it looked yesterday the change doesn't have to be reflected in the outer world the change only has to be experienced on the inner and that's the really important part for people or you know you're doing it because you really want to do it as opposed to you're just like sliding along with some momentum that's just carrying you as opposed to you saying okay I'm GNA seize control of this well actually I like this I don't mind doing this but at least I know I'm doing this from a different place or something like that yeah a place for my own really wanting to do it it's a like you know yeah um I guess part of it's like the exhilaration of this just going and saying okay you know this is exhilarating to do this to find that spot in yourself and then all I I you said this multiple episodes all I can say is like this is the one of the most important things I ever did so in a weird way for me this is like a culmination of these whole set of podcast episodes that we've been doing over these years I mean we'll keep doing more yeah I won't just like okay I'm done that's it I'm rolling it up no yeah but uh I this is kind of the culmination of what I actually probably think about this deep down yeah some of this has been pretty personal for me too I have um sort of a slight real life example I have a a client of mine who is not that close to retirement age what we would consider retirement age but she's in her mid 50s and um she had wanted her between her and her husband their kids are in college and so they're thinking about what retirement looks like and they had she had said to me when we started working a couple years ago oh once I get to x amount of money she never shared the amount of money that they she needed but once I get to this amount of money uh we're good we're we're set we can live off of our investments and what we have and you know whatever okay fine well she ended up early getting that money early she said that she got a huge bonus and she had met her goal and I said well when's the retirement party uhuh and then she pulled out a second card and said oh I also had a secondary goal of being in a a career position to be able to be on boards at at other companies and I was like oh we never mentioned that before she's like well that was kind of a secondary goal the financial one was the important one I said well now that you've reached your goal and you can do whatever you want what are you going to do and she's like I'm not sure I'll keep working until I figure it out but for me I'd be like you reached a goal like I guess the question is whether or not once she's on the board with her there's a secret tertiary gold and another card comes out that's and that's what I'm saying is that that's the question right this is what I'm talking about is that when when there's this this chance to pull the Band-Aid off and go okay hey now let's do something else you like it's like the American dream right work until you can retire maybe retire early and now you could do what you want with your time news flash you haven't been doing [...] with your time for the last x amount of years but you know raising your family and and enjoying dinners and and some travel which is beautiful but the this the flame that has not been tended to you know so your passions for hobbies or meditation or whatever music it doesn't matter those haven't been stoked so you're St starting a lot of things when you haven't been tending to them at all they're not they're they're NACI inside of your experience yeah all I can say about it again is like this was the most important thing I ever did in my life you know so the extent that we're trying to talk about what the important things that you know you feel like you've done like this was it you know yeah yeah and and a lot of different variations on that theme like this yeah and again it's the whole thing like even you talk about I was using this g&t metaphor that's kind of an inner thing to do as much as what you're saying as an outer thing yeah you know it's an inner thing you're sort of like let me blow these things I have to trash my whole life around me that's kind of being the drama mama anyways but I could at least do this inside and then start thinking okay what would I really want this to look like which is really also saying what do I truly believe in yeah like what do I really believe in you know and let me look at that you know from a perspective of like okay now cleared the entire decks of this um and then you know we'll start from there and I'll say what it is that I truly believe in which okay now our previous episodes partially was okay points that we did we did like Enlightenment as kind of a goal whatever that means to you and Carl Jung he talked about the idea that he wanted to kind of like understand his own inner World his own unconscious and bring it out and make it expressed right so that was one of his big things he also realized and he saw that as being partially a Buddhist thing he got that it was Buddhist he also said well maybe not maybe for him it's not going to be absolutely Buddhist but he saw it in that context for sure and we kind of talked about him in previous episodes his experience of that um and then he started to realize like I guess I'm G have to come up with my whole own way of like thinking about my own myth because he sort of realized like once I blew this out you know this was gone for him he realized well the myth that I grew up with you know very yian way to describe this my but okay the story The myths I grew up with don't apply to me anymore and so now I'm going to have to come up with new myths to guide my life which I think is a great thing to ask all of us too you know what's what's the myth you would write for yourself you know uh that's kind of like our secret thing anyways because roomie talks about that too write your own myth right um and uh he also realized that there might be points of conflict now between himself in the world around him but he took on the challenge of dealing with that realizing that you know uh my attitude my goals my myth and he uses this like ethics and morals thing he said well okay I I wanted the morals of this don't apply to me as much anymore because I don't believe in them in the same way I used to so I'm gonna come up with my own ethics my own way of how I'm going to look at and value my life and then we got to the idea of like love because we were ending up on the love episodes and this was obviously a big part of yung's life and for him it got to the point where he no longer had a like I guess some a traditional way of looking at how he thought about love and relationships in the context of his life we'll explore that more again as we kind of go along in this one too and so probably the more traditional judeo-christian way of thinking about things he grew up with that wasn't going to work for him anymore he also wasn't like a biological materialist either like maybe like a Freud was or like a lot of people might be that didn't work for him either so I guess it put him in the position of having to go okay I'm have to figure out whatever my own value system of this is right and part of that was um changing the meaning of how he thought I'm trying to see like I think it was like energy before form we talked about a lot this idea that he felt like he had connections with people that were deep and he wanted to come up with ways of living them according to his own terms as opposed to being boxed in to what might have been the way he might have seen things before or what might have been sort of like the cultural attitude you know um and obviously for him that led to something that you would call a polyamory but whether that's a polyamory or in a real sense or not I guess we can explore that idea too but that was this idea right that was the kind of the the energy before form part of this which I think gets to the idea of we also talked about like two different levels of reality sort of the level of reality that's more like the social reel level of reality and the spiritual level of reality and those two things may or may not be in sync so those I think are the main points we've done so far I know anything else you think you like you wanted to add to that one or does that seem like that's a good summary of what we've been talking about that's a good summary all right so what did he think about love and relationship then because I think that's getting to the Capper of pulling a lot of this stuff together and so because it comes from this energy before form level of reality on the one hand it's not going to necessarily follow the rules of this world and on the other hand it's has a kind of a mysterious quality to it and Yung really got this this has been my experience too I'll interested in hearing your experience with this as well is you can't predict how this is going to happen and then there is something Transcendent about the experience of this when it does really appear in your life oftentimes in unexpected ways so Jung gets this I kind of took a couple of his quotes here just to give his feeling for this um and so he would say things like who can exhaust the mystery of love I fter before the task of finding the language which might adequately Express the incalculable paradoxes of love in some ways he also sees it as like the problem of love seems to me a monster of a mountain which for all my experience has always soared still to Greater Heights whenever I thought I had almost reached the top because one of the other quotes from him what occurs between the lover and the belover is the entire fulfillment of the godhead so he's framing this in VAR spiritual terms both are unfathomable riddles to each other for who can understand the godhead kind of the same way who can understand these kinds of things that magically can happen between people and you know one of the really famous things it says is like whenever two me two people meet it's an alchemical reaction if it really is something and that means both people are going to be transformed by this so that's sort of his attitude towards this and uh for me uh I think I think about things that way I do sort of see things through the idea that there are going to be people with whom you have something a little magical it doesn't always have to be romantic it doesn't have to be sexual but there's magical events that happen between people I suppose we can go back to our roomie and Shams of tbr's example that you know is kind of a good one here whether they were romantically involved or not who's to say you know two men in um the Muslim world at time of room's life tradition says no who knows but in any case they deeply transformed one another and uh I guess I'm a big believer in that so all right I'll throw it back to you Daniel what do you think about what Yung is saying yeah I think yeah I mean I feel like this is an ex an extension of that kind of exclusion exclusion or exclusivity versus unique oriented discussion that we had episodes ago you know that there are going to just be some people that you know touch you in some kind of a particular way and if you allow the exploration of that relationship in whatever way that it manifests it doesn't you know we're referencing it as a relationship not not exclusively sexual um but that the exploration of that relationship there's power in that and that doesn't necessarily even have to be at the cost of your traditional monogamous partnership you know but that will go back even further to the willheim Reich stuff and that the repression of that even mental exploration you know let alone in reality that the actual exploration of that potential Bond can make somebody feel some kind of way some kind of tension some sort of repression there's an energy an act of binding in this case that keeps those two things separate and if we're going to use the kind of I guess quote or thought from Carl Young in this case that if it's uh you know sort of a holographic kind of reflection of the relationship with the divine or the godhead as he calls it then one could make the argument one being me in this particular moment that that that is similar to you restricting your own relationship with the energy before form so the energy of love right as a representation of divinity that you yourself are wrapping yourself from that you know and again it doesn't have to be at the behest of your monogamous relationship it's just to say that like those things exist and saying that they don't exist is a repressive thing and then ackn not acknowledging that you yourself are feeling that then is again a continuation of of repression and that doesn't allow yourself I think to express the full gamut of what you could you know and again like I said earlier that doesn't mean you have to divorce your partner and leave your kids because you know you had a good conversation with the waitress at Applebee's yeah that would be a big extreme yeah you know like that' be that would be an extreme but it's also to say that you if you have a good kinship with somebody that you've known or you don't know or whatever but there just seem to be a bond there that you can't explore you know some kind of like emotional intimacy or you know something along this line right that allows yourself to be open a heck of a question because I got a little bit more on this I want to talk a little bit about zen master EQ and some of his attitudes about this similar feeling of connectivity but I mean it so I like to do that too before we get out of here today but you're bringing up something that I think is really deep and I'd be curious you know for people who are listening who we you know we have listeners who are international and like just to see what attitudes are in other cultures about this but yeah all I can say about this whole thing I'm gonna hold this belief no matter what I'm GNA say I believe in this whole way of looking at the world and I'll give my EQ version of it in the second I get my Carl Yung version of it I'll kind of like talk about what I think me this means to me in terms of the way that I would frame and view the world but I could say American culture in my experience of it overall really hates this like it really doesn't like it at all so if you have a different opinion you can let me know yeah I'm always doing a little bit of research in our episodes and um I gave another listen to like some of the Esther Perell stuff and then you know there's Dan Savage who another person who comments on these things and um and all I can really say is that this idea of like uh exclusivity is really really strong and my experience at least has been even when you say like okay well this has to be platonic but we could still be emotionally and intellectually close a lot of times or maybe the most of the time as far as my experience is no way no yeah the exclusivity principle is so strong in this culture yeah and again you know we're all have our own if we frame these things as orientations we all have our own orientations and that's not to judge anybody on this but all I can really say is it's strong and I had an interesting conversation you know Ryan dport Anthropologist on call uh and we were talking about this on demand yeah or even on tap yeah um so uh I I brought this up and I can't remember if we talked about this or not Daniel but I've even had this with like male friends where it's just been like no you know uh you know they'll get involved with someone and they have to cut those close male friends out of their life it's that strong of an exclusivity thing you know and it's like straight male friends we ain't doing nothing with each other gone you know and so it really is very deep and I don't know what to make of that I've thought about this a lot in my life because this has been a kind of repeating theme of my existence you get close with people and you have and they cut you know they're's boom they cut based on this and they're gone and uh and I I have to say for myself I think partially because I'm not really a creature of this culture for whatever reason I kind of frame it in the idea like I must have reincarnated from someplace else and I don't really get this place um but you know that part was has been shocking to me at times where I'm like I can't believe it like you can never you can never satisfy this demand for this you know exclusivity thing and it's with dudes I knew where their wives would just be like no this guy has to go you're too close with him no I thought and intimidating and they've jettisoned you know like one of my best friends growing up this happened like he cut me out of his life because was that just you or was that other people in general because I find it pretty much just across the board yeah that's what I'm saying I find it across the board it just cut people out amazing thing and again I'm like kind of like talking about my own experience this and with yours too but like I if there's anything I don't understand I really don't understand this like I find this and I I'm a I'm uniqueness dude or whatever but this I find very very hard to understand I don't know what that is inside I've tried to ask people about even like what's going on inside of you where you feel like this is necessary or why you would even want to do that because for me when I think about this coming from my mindset I'm like I don't even understand why someone would want that you know having a partner I wouldn't want them to cut off their experiences or cut off other people I don't need that and even if someone offered it to me I'd like like no keep that I don't want you to do that for me you know I so I have I I have to be honest I have no I have no access into that I don't know what that means but let me throw it over to you you can kind of share your own experience I guess what the question I have then is your assertion here is that the strength of this person's exclusivity requirement is such that their partner cannot have deep connection with anybody outside of their family or even to include their own family I mean I guess it must maybe include the nuclear family with their own kids but you know a lot of times it becomes a very narrow yeah becomes very very narrow have you had that experience uh no it would never happen I mean you mean Ian have have I had that meet personally or with friends of mine with friends who have done that um yeah yeah but there there were looser connections so it wasn't I I found that it was it was a two-parter that like when people were single they had more time to hang out right if you're seeing them more you're building this connection more then that energy inherently has to be shuffled into their relationship because they're wanting to build and so on and so forth and so there's a natural bit of a separation but I do think that what you're bringing up is an interesting proposal and one that makes sense when you use that I guess ideology more ubiquitously amongst the population that there are some people that prefer to draw their Partners away right we call them whipped right those people would be whipped right right you know what I'm saying like it could be really anybody doing it right it goes both ways I'm not saying it's it's not only women to men it's only men with women too you know yeah yeah yeah it's all over the place yeah it's all over the place and so yeah so that's I have never I have never really thought about it in general like that but it is it definitely makes sense it makes sense you know yeah it's been interesting because even if you're like okay this is a platonic relationship it should be fine yeah even if you respect that boundary we could still be emotionally intellectually close no gone yeah and stun me I've been like legitimately multiple times like kind of like shocked and I'm not the dumbest person in the world so if something happens I usually will pick up the pattern but this has been so outside of my own nature that I'm like a little stunned yeah you know by this feature it's very strange to me it's just I guess we can all think about it for ourselves but it's something that's so um alien to my in world that I just I can't understand it I can't understand I can't understand doing it if someone asked me to do thatd be like I don't think I'm doing that not like I don't love you but I'm not doing that and uh and even if someone wanted to do it for me I'd be like please don't do that so I can't understand it from like either end you know right but I guess that is Esther perel's Point If we're honest about it she says this is the specialness vibe of people they want the other person to have experiences they want the other person to do these things it's interesting you know yeah really interesting and the interview that she does that I used to kind of like tap into this idea of exclusivity and uniqueness because I like her framing on that yeah uh she kind of like talks about with the person who's doing the interview it's a curious interview Daniel I'll pop it out to you at some point it's a guy named ta rpui the backstory is so great so his mom went to Italy at some point had a love affair with some Italian or like aristocrat nobility he was 50 I think she was maybe late teens early 20s or something he was the product of this relationship so he's like a uh uh Italian nobleman by name you know but he's also like an American dude on some level he's very interesting guy and then he was apparently he married there's an actress named Olivia wild does that name ring anything to you at all yeah yeah okay he was married to her so they married when she was 18 he was like in his mid 20s or something and they were married for 11 years and the reason he's talking that super foral is he's doing a documentary film about relationships because he he made it apparently after his divorce with Olivia wild she was like I'm ending this relationship and she did it I guess because she was like I didn't experience enough of the world I didn't get a chance to do the things I need to do so you have to go and as I was watching it I had told the story of my own experience with my first love Susan and that same question came up and you know she proposed something different you know that we open up the relationship and do this in a different way but he'd gone through the same thing and apparently this experience drove him it's also a documentary filmmaker and a philosopher so he started asking all these profound questions about the nature of love and uh and so it gets to a point where they're talking about this and Esther Perell says there's also this thing called emotional emotional infidelity have you even heard about this so she's telling this guy yeah this do you even get this concept and she kind of like has this puzzled expression on her face like that's a thing can you believe it and I was watching going yeah Esther I have a hard time believing it but it's a thing for sure people really feel it so anyways I wanted just you know we're going into this thing because you brought up this whole issue of like I don't think it should be something where you feel like you have to give up your primary commitments and all that you think there should be space for this but for a lot of people there really isn't if I'm going to be honest about it so I don't know how much that's an American thing Esther Perell seems semi- shocked about it still you know as a yeah so I mean for our you know our International audience right if if you know hit us up I think we have about a third of our audience is is international so or even if you're from the US but you have connections with people outside ask them you know see what they see what their thoughts are I mean because I mean we're gen genuinely curious yeah I really am no I know a lot of people from other cultures and there's different attitudes in other cultures that's for sure you know I know a certain number of people from Eastern Europe and there's lots of open relationships and part of the the culture that I know right yeah um especially from Russia you know and at some point I got curious about this and I looked up like which cultures are the most fine with people you know being open in this way and the big winner was drum roll I still remember number 38% it was Russia okay 18% was Bo like was uh Czechoslovakia yeah and uh our Anthropologist on call demand or tap rport has Bohemian Roots so I was just like saying how do you think about this Ryan yeah yeah but he's a married guy so um but any case you know like do you have do you feel like you have Bohemian roots and that's up to him to talk about um but now he's a married dude um but in any case it's interesting cultures do have differences but America this is very very not tolerant of this and like again it's been a shock if I'm honest about it I've been really surprised in my life people I was very very close with gone and then some cases that's been with women I've known where I'd been like okay well we could we can be platonic that's fine you know but I like the emotional intellectual closeness no sure U and then even with dudes it's very strange do you do you understand it personally like I have I don't have any spot to get that I just don't have it in me so it's hard for me to even intellectually I mean I can understand intellectually but like the emotional stuff I I don't get on some level I have two there's two thoughts that are sort of parallel one is that it takes two to tango and that like yeah I don't think that somebody proposes that as a means as a rule of Engagement you know I think it sort of happens with times some people are more needy than others and that's a function of their person so it might be unconscious of course you might have somebody who that that is conscious with and they're sort of manipulating a little bit in that way uh but then the other part is that like depending how people view relationships if they view this you know partnership as the primary most important thing in their life then they will likely prioritize it as that and remove resources from other relationships and funnel it towards that and and I don't know that that's necessarily wrong either you know what I'm saying it's just it gets to the the the question for me really lies in like on the inside side right and your heart of hearts like are you cool with that are you cool with the shedding of the strength of you and and your community around you you know is that is that your because your actions are saying that that's a priority that that this is a priority but I'm wondering are you even aware that that's happening and I'm gonna maybe play uh or put more faith in the people and saying I'm not sure that they're conscious that it's actually happening you know that like oh I'm just hanging out with this person oh they have a huge friend group oh they have a huge family and I have you know like my obligations are now changing and therefore my buddies or my girlfriends or whatever they're just I'll see them when I see them they're always going to be there we have a history blah blah blah but this is where I want to be and what's important to me and so people doing prioritization is just a natural function of life in general but I don't know that like people are aware of this particular point they're that it it appears as if you have chosen this relationship not the person the relationship because they're different you know they're linked but they're not the same over all of these other ones and that's okay that's your choice I just want to be I think it would be if you like for for example if you and your friend had a conversation and your buddy was like hey Eric sorry man you know I'm just not going to be talking to you as much you know what's the weird part about that you really can't even have that conversation already getting to the point of like hey I don't want to sound like I'm criticizing this guy's wife or something right you know that's gonna put him on the defensive right but it male friends you know it should it should come from the other person actually yeah yeah it would have to be that way have to be that but I don't yeah you're right I don't even know if they necessarily even frame it that way and it would be awkward to do it because then you really have to say oh my partner wants to cut me off from other sources or or connection and so therefore or they want to do it themselves or they want to do it themselves that's I'm saying it might bit of both on a certain level if you're an exclusivity person for as exclusive in this people out there and this is what you want to do rock on do you fine you know I mean I think the point that I've always wondered about is whether this is compulsory in the sense of like there's a expectation that the culture has that the partner has that you're going to do this and so people feel kind of under a pressure to do this that I really wonder about you know especially for other people you know when you talk about elements of where I don't know this could be you know like a person where there's deep feelings between you know two people um even if the feelings can be like put in a platonic space you know people will demand that people cut right you know because they you know so is that compulsory or is that voluntary I don't know the answer that I think there's a cult there's a cultural I I'm going to take the position the point of this podcast there's a real cultural pressure around this because if it happens if it seems to happen a lot then you start thinking this is beyond just maybe each individual's personal decision this is like a cultural thing that's deeper and I I guess I'm be curious to hear people like from other places do you even have an emotional infidelity concept Esther Pell's point in part is like not only the other cultures don't necessarily have the physical infidelity idea they kind of go more like okay we understand people aren't going to be really monogamous okay let's just you know but American culture is not like that American culture is like okay we're GNA say we are though we know people really aren't American culture is monogamous in all kinds of ways it's sexually monogamous for sure because that's a as Dan Savage likes to say that's an extinction level event for a lot of relationships for people that's gonna blow it up you know yeah not for me you know so it depends on your perspective you know I mean I mean it was you know it was my mom who we had on the podcast before you you guys could check those episodes out Nadia's Journey which is you know fun episode to do with my mom definitely learned more about her in that way I love I love the fact that I got to do that one as the interview because Daniel was like you interviewed my mom I was like I don't even know your mom but it was really fun that was the point because it was like it was like getting someone who didn't know her and you know I think it was interesting for us both you know all three of us yeah all three of us yeah but yeah she brought it up to me and this is probably like I don't know maybe seven eight nine years ago maybe 10 years ago we were just talking about just stuff in general and I was like oh well Mom what if you know this is her ex-husband now I was like oh what if he cheated on you she's like I mean she's like would he still want to be in a relationship with me or not and I'm like yeah no he he would he just had a you know he had a fling with somebody or not she's like couples can work through whatever they choose to work through that's their relationship to deal with and the outside people what are we going to say if that person makes them happy and they're good for each other he did this thing okay I'm going to beat the guy up over he still wants to work with me okay we go get to go do some work on our communication we work on things I hear out what he has to say he hears what I have to say and we try and make our relationship better for it she's like but people make it through far worse things than that yeah yeah and so she's like the point is like well that's nucle your mom is already probably in a you know a much more small group of much more small minority of people but that was for she's already kind of like an outlier you know that was one of the first times that I you know that's coming from my mom who's a you know you know serial monogamous person you know um and that was her and maybe you know she's a little bit she's older obviously she's older than me and she's had more life experience and relationships and whatnot and she's been you know a psychologist or you know seen patients in this way and I just think that shaped her opinion but it was I wasn't a was we weren't having a conversation about this particular thing so the fact that she said that was more I don't know it it changed the way that I saw relationships in general number one on that particular topic number two but then it also made the Rel ship like a thing that was alive that is sort of like forward moving that can take on different shapes and can be of different strength and of different colors and different looks based on what you put into it you know so it's not just like a rigid thing that stands firm like this so as we have these conversations like this that whole thing it's not just binary right it's not this one this one and then two magnets pull them in and now they're stuck together no because actually in reality the one person has a community all around around them and attached to them and the other person has a community around them it's attached to them they both together as a couple have friends that they know as other couples that are attach to them and so on and so forth from work and play and wherever else they're into and so you're never removing people from it actually you're just asking them to change to ones that have more I don't want to say this in a mean way but superficial connections so that they can be you know pulled from one to the other and whatnot because it's going to happen again everybody has friends like it's it's going to do what it's going to do yeah I mean like I think it's a very all I can say is I think there's a cultural exclusivity Paradigm yeah when we could talk to listeners from other places I think Esther perel's point is something like that's very that the extent of that is very uniquely American that's her opinion the degree of that is like very strong in this culture as opposed to like from her being a cross-cultural person she just doesn't feel like that's as strong in other cultures you know and American culture as she points out if people feel threatened if people feel like even I guess we're talking about emotional infidelity as much as other infidelities people will divorce yeah you know rather than you know what your mom is talking about right so anyways it's interesting I all I can say is again from my point of view I think at least from my attitude and I'll take myself as the uniqueness person you know like I would want to see a partner have the connections that they want to have and I would feel bad cutting them off from those people if it seemed important to them I would have to respect their point of view yeah and I would respect the fact that they have their own lives I mean you know uh when I die I wouldn't expect someone to toss themselves in funeral fire you know they have their own life they have their own existence and I wouldn't want to cut cut someone off from people who they think are important I just wouldn't want to do that but I mean that's really I think in my trying to do this in these episodes is just to like present like okay I maybe I do have a certain orientation to the world maybe I'm far on one end of this uniqueness Paradigm or something right right and for me that's how it feels right you know and I could acknowledge like if someone else comes through that someone feels deeply connected with I'm gonna like respect it I'll say okay that's what you need to do that's what you need to do but I don't think that's American cultural I really don't you know I think that's an outlier position I also think that like it it looks at the way in which you view life in general which has part been you know how we which is the underlying theme of the episodes yeah yeah how do you look at life yeah how do you look at life and if you look at and and not just for your not just as it not just like exclusively not relationship wise but not exclusively for yourself but for your intermediates right your partner your kids your close friends or whatnot if you view them as also walking on their path and doing the same thing that you're doing then I guess inherently you'd want them to have as full of an experience as as you as as they would with I me that's the core of the uniqueness idea right right if you want to get to a core value there yeah that is it but with with the understanding that like you're both doing it voluntarily at the same time together you know so you're in these kind of like we're we're doing the same thing we're just doing it together it's not that like I have to squeeze your hand and drag you and you have to drag me and we're kind of like it's not like it just it's just a different view a different long-term view it probably say something about like people who are strong and uniqueness and people who are strong and new exclusivity are going to have a hard time like yeah harmonizing their worldviews because it's a it's a different thing for me in the epodes I think it's like trying to explain like what I mean what is this what is what's the underlying view of reality behind this and I suppose the idea I would have is that there's deep karmic connections between people that are going to come from all kinds of places and all kinds of directions and then the richness of life is fed by not just this one thing with this one person but the richness of all of these connections is what feed right you know and I obviously and you know the word Karma fits into this you know and if we look at Yung and then maybe EQ is we kind of maybe have the last 10 minutes before we have to wrap up today or something because it's a good it's a good subject matter to like kind of do it and kind of do it and close it out but he obviously gets the idea that he thinks about say his connection with both his wife and then you know one of his romantic uh Partnerships the Sabrina and he talks about her as like it's a reincarnation driven thing he really thinks about her that way you know and uh you know even when he writes in some of his Memoirs he could still see he's still thinking about her decades later and he thought okay we had some karmic thing between the two of us right and um and you know he he feels this way you know that it's kind of like this it's a it's an underlying sort of semi- mysterious but karmic thing between like two people and uh eek's thing is similar right as a zen master he says there's this red thread of passion that can't be cut part of that is talking about like sexuality he basically says okay you know you can't cut sexuality sexuality is gonna like be a thread through all people's lives a lot of times he's read that way but I I like to make the point about him uh you know as one of my kind of personal favorites on Masters and Poets that there's clearly so much more that he's talking about he's talking about the idea of like when you have a deep connection with someone that's kind of uncuttable in its way too you know that's the red thread of passion it's not just sex it's something more than that because he talks about that even with his daughter you know that threat that binds the two of them he has like this great little verse where he says watching my four-year-old daughter dance I can't break free of her that's the red thread of passion right connecting two people together and then he talks about it obviously in his more sexual love and romantic life you know where he talks about you know uh uh he says a woman is Enlightenment with when you are with her and the red thread of passion uh you know binds the two of you together or something like that right it's not just sexuality you know uh both of your passions flare inside you when you see this isn't just like swiping left you know on some app he's talking about something deeper U towards the end of his life he's really famous just throwing a little bit about him in here you know because it gives you another perspective besides just the yungan one um but he you know developed this very deep relationship with this blind musician and singer at the end of his life and uh he said something like I was I was like an old leafless tree until we met green buds burst out and Blossom now that now that I have you I'll never forget what I owe you so he's talking about something that like just brings him back to life and it's interesting because I thought about that Esther Perell thing with this too where she says the people that she knew who came to life again again after the Concentration Camp experiences were the ones who like reignited the red thread of passion to use eq's thing so anyways you know it's kind of an interesting thing I wanted to kind of share those like the yian thing because he obviously thought about this in some karmic way it looks to me like yeku is thinking about this in this deeply kind of karmic way and all I can really say is I I guess I strongly strongly believe in that to the extent that we're like creating a worldview this is part of the soup of my worldview this is going into the pot right this is a you know ingredient in the thing and um anyways I don't know you got uh you know at the end of this part you got something more I what do you think about all that I mean how's that manifest in your life and you know what what do you think about that you know the the only thought I've had in my head for the last four minutes I'm gonna I'm gonna share it now and it's it's related but um you know I asked this question like what you know what what are some of the benefits in in monogamy and you know I apologize to our listeners for me taking such a long time to come to this but you know whatever I feel like that was this the thing that you asked like episodes and episodes and episodes ago yeah I did I know I know you know it comes you asked me this like literally like Eight Episodes ago and I you asked me it and I was like dude I don't know what to say because I hadn't had this conversation that's right because I don't I I don't believe in it as much as other people do so anyway I didn't know how to answer it at the time I was like I'm gonna come back what what is in my head there's there's a whole bunch of images playing in my head but basically what I see is like the original Arrangement right like an arranged marriage was done for bonding building ties connecting communities very likely right nobility families together and nobilities and these things strengthen these ties and so that's one that's one part and they were arranged which is you know still how many marriages are in the world and like we talked about last episode sometimes that works out really well like it's great you know other times it's totally miserable and usually the woman gets the short end of the stick on those deals also depends a little bit like in talking with Ryan dport uh Anthropologist on tap um the idea that like as as he was confirming to me like 60% of Indian women not that these are all arranged marriages anymore but it tells something about the culture within Urban centers are like having Affairs so that also matters too you know a lot of those arranged marriage things they were sort of like marriages and name but wasn't yeah based on the idea of an ideal love or something like we have in American culture right American culture is this is based on some more idealized version of love right and that that which I mean that could be your attitude and your value system there's no no judgment even on that but you yeah so having that as like as the you know source of sort of background to the argument then that like that tradition then moves forward and and instead of somebody else telling you what to do you are the one who's choosing it you know and then you recreate the large banquet of putting two different F you know same family or two different families or Clans or whatever together to have a meal to get to know each other so that they feel like maybe there'll be a less chance of war between them you know or whatever the case is you know or they can cooperate in life right yeah yeah so there there I think there is there in lies the uh there in lies the benefit but then the in actuality once that the moment of the you know the nuptuals is is completed then you have to go about in living right and that's the the more difficult part and that we live longer generally speaking life has more ups and downs there's more influences on our time and our attention and everything else um and and we're more separated at the same time that we have more opportunities to explore various experiences in life should we choose to do so that then these these types of relationships become a possibility actually and that that that in itself may be scary for some people who have yet to arrive to that sense of potential as a um as a I don't know as an opening for something different you know and that different is bad regardless of what what that different is you know what I'm saying yeah yeah so if something seems different or threatening then it's like your car goes up your go up and yeah you feel threatened or intimidated by it right and so that's that's the and I feel like that's the resistance is you know and that and that's okay like that that's we you know I'm I'm okay with it it's kind of a funny thing all I can really you know say as we get to the Capper of this is just to say if I'm writing my own view of the world yes how I it works for me and we're all going to do this for ourselves yeah my own experience of this has been that you're going to meet people in your life who are extremely special for whatever that magical or chemical thing is that happens between people something like this happens you know and um I haven't had the experience where it's been like a unilateral thing and been real my experiences has been if you meet someone and it's and it's a chemical right then most people tend to really feel it people know it you know you could have like a unrequited love or something and these things happen but my own experience this has been more like when two people who are really bonded in this way what EKU is talking about or what Yung is talking about when that or like what roomy is writing about you know if this happens both people seem to know it somehow you know yeah and it's real and if you want to call it the Red Thread that binds the two people together or something that starts to starts to zing and vibrate between those two people something meaningful is happening there yeah and I suppose for me and again I'm coming from this uniqueness perspective but for me I I like the idea that there there will be space for those things to happen you know and I you again I think after my experiences with Susan back in the day I have had this conversation where I've said like okay you know we're close but if there's someone else in my life who I think is important I'm not going to cut them out right because of you I'm not going to do that so don't don't think I'm going to because I'm not you know but it's because of this underlying value system which I think for what we're trying to do here I think relates to a certain metaphysics actually yeah a certain way of looking at the world where you say yeah there's certain kinds of karmic threads between people that are so powerful and so significant that they should be allowed to be right but again that's not going to be you know necessarily everyone's attitude okay and it's I don't think it's the cultural attitude either I think the cultural attitude is kind of hostile towards this if I'm honest about it yeah yeah well even if you know even as we come to the end here you know I'm just thinking about like even current um occupational Tendencies for the population is to have five to seven careers amongst the time that you're working you know ah yeah yeah whereas before it would be one to two right you know like previous you know up until 19 20 yeah probably for my dad it would because you got fired from one and you got forced out or something like you would probably try to stay at the same place forever could and before that it was a skill you were a blank farmer you were a trades person you were whatever Courier whatever you were you know that's what you did that's that's all that you did that was your life yeah you know and your kids probably inherited it and so you know whatever you you know what I'm saying and so there's just the the openness is is is an ever increasing uh facet of I guess I could say modern living you know in this way and and this I wonder about that a little bit we can pick it up the next slot I didn't mean I mean that I don't want to kill your flow or anything like that but if I look at like my grandpa he worked in steal mills his whole life but he was a pretty wild dude he was like uh promiscuous as hell he had a lot of people he knew you know he was always out doing something so I don't know it's an interesting question I don't know if this is like you know I don't know what that means you know uh just to throw it out there I kind of in an episode to dump something like that out but anyways I don't know yeah well like Tucker Carlson all we do is ask I just ask questions yeah I think that's the one point of commonality you have with Tucker Carlson human male the overlap yeah I guess so okay two two points yeah you both be there too I suppose that's right yeah well all yeah that goes in the human Humanity part of it yeah yeah yeah so I don't know I'm not trying to like you know you're kind of talking about there's more openness maybe in some ways but I don't know it's kind of an interesting question you know yeah yeah um all right anyway so to be continued I suppose is you know I'm sure we're stretch run of this you know know um but uh I think it's good questions you know I think the underlying thing is like asking to the people out here like what do you believe yeah we're showing like a way of thinking about a certain way of looking at the world you'll come up with your own way but yeah it's an explanation of that yeah yeah yeah uh hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com you can leave a message on the Instagram or just feel free to pop it in right in the YouTube video however you are consuming our media these days we appreciate all of the the love and the views and the you know the contacts we definitely you know the conversations that we have here ring and echo through my week you know and I definitely bring them into my other conversations and sometimes you know people who listen to us will hit me up and be like hey you said this thing and made me think about that thing and um you know it's really wonderful so you know thank you to everybody who's you know who's been rocking with us for a day or a year or you know whatever we appreciate everybody so um yeah hit us up hit us back share our work we love it thank you everybody for listening Eric thank you so much my friend thank you yeah of course and for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch youall on the next one [Music] peace