[Music] what's going on everybody uh welcome to Jin Tantra spirituality with the twist uh today you have Daniel kind of driving the ship and uh we have one new friend with us uh Rory I forgot your last name I hiltbrand hiltbrand Rory hiltbrand whom um I have just met recently like in the last half hour um but I I saw Rory give a lecture um about a month ago getting some uh continuing education for my acupuncture license and I just said this dude is super interesting and I think we would be friends and so I sent him an email and uh here we are and for those uh wondering uh who are you know regular listeners who are wondering where Eric is he is off tonight on Retreat so uh we wish him well in his practice in his meditations and I'm sure he'll be sending all of us some uh kind of psychic love and you know hopefully not the creepy kind you know um but anyways Roy thank you for coming on today man I really do appreciate it I one of the things that's unique about having a podcast and we've been doing this now for like three and a half years is that you know I get to send an email to somebody who I've never met before and been like hey I'd like to have a conversation with you and record it you know and like okay that sounds cool but if I didn't have it and I'd said hey I want to talk to you on the phone or on Zoom for no real reason at all it's a little Weir man you know what I'm saying so so thank you thank you for coming on and being open to chat and you know most of our audience doesn't know you but maybe some of the people you share this this podcast with will but for those that don't um tell me a little bit about yourself what you do and then you maybe more importantly kind of like the the story that that got you that got you there sure so I'm an acupuncturist like yourself um I have been doing a lot of lectures lately and and the content of those lectures the subject matter has been mostly dowst numerology which I have learned from a Korean DST lineage for the past 10 years I've been studying with their current uh head of the lineage grandmas song Beck it's a um dohong Clan which translates to Eastern Scholars and the way that I got into it I was actually a mathematical economics major back in the day and um but really I was always really fascinated with being on the frontier of of what we know and what is reality and what is our place within it and so I really wanted to study Physics when I was in uh in undergrad but at the time um I was pretty good at math so I got into this undergraduate research fellowship with the NSF and so they just let me left me in a room and I would you know be on a computer doing math research Chaos Theory research um for hours at a time and I just racked up all these like highlevel math credits and so it was just really easy for me to get a math major and I took some economics courses as well and some of the research was applying uh Chaos Theory to certain economic models and so um so I got this math econ major and and I took a couple physics classes but but not really which is what I wanted to I still loved math too but there's something about the physics which is it's interfacing with reality a little bit more yeah yeah so you and I were talking a little bit before we started and I was you know you know telling you sharing with you my uh my love of physics from my undergrad days and how if things had turned just just slight be slightly different that I definitely would have been a physics major for sure so I'm glad that uh I'm glad that we uh we have that it's hard you know for me it's it's it's a it's conceptually like beautiful to see when you get it but for me get getting there is a difficult part but I love personally I love things that bring me great challenge you know in life I really I I do and there's not I'm not going to say it because I don't want all of a sudden to be like all of a sudden fire starts falling from the sky but you know some things challenge you in a particular way so I'm it's it's cool to hear that yeah well if you ever want to talk more math or physics or anything I'm I'm always happy to do okay okay um so okay so I guess one question I have is just for now and then I'll let you continue just so we can keep people kind of caught up like DS numerology which is what you've been lecturing on more recently for people who don't know what that is which I'm sure is not many I'm sure you know people know but for you know the the newbies um how how would you explain that how would you explain that to to people who've never heard of this before and and and then why why are you drawn towards that now sure sure so what was really appealing to me and and I'll tell you how I got there or we could skip it too if it's not that interesting you but I uh eventually met my My DST um master and um when people ask him what is dosm his answer is always uh multi-dimensional math and so uh that was really appealing to me because it was always something you know nebulous and mysterious but this was and this photo behind me was actually from my my master it's like my doctor strange map of the multi-dimensional structure [Music] um and so essentially you can think of dowst numerology as really the source code of life it's the the numbers which are correspond to the geometric underpinning of this conscious substrate of reality and so there's so much going into it and you can think of like uh it's so embedded in in Chinese culture but it's also really gotten into the the global Zeitgeist of like the yinyang symbol the taii symbol which represents yinong and um like the the Chinese coins they're circular with the square in the center um but so you know in the DS Classics like the na Jing it talks about you know the ancient people knew the way to live they followed the patterns of Yin and Yang and the numerical symbols they apply the numerical symbols to life so it's this book on Chinese medicine but it's really these Dows numerology understandings are you apply to life and so Chinese medicine is just one application of this understanding of this uh energetic phenomena multi-dimensional phenomena and its Dynamics and interactions um and so Chinese medicine is one facet you could you could argue even taiichi is is another facet and in these balances of Yin and Yang and the flow and and these patterns divinations stems and branches fun funu um and so on and so forth really I call it the source code of reality it's the underlying like Matrix that's going on yeah yeah and I so I you know I definitely I get that and I from my understanding of this you know I agree I guess I'm the question I have though is like have have you in talking about this and getting questions from people have you found any kind of like Western correlates to this I guess I could say like recognition or application of this multi-dimensional math in imprinted or not imprinted but kind of like poking through right because to me you know taiichi in particular and the way that people move is is very it's geometric it's not like straight lines per you know like not for people who are thinking of like triangles or something like this it's not straight lines like that but it's it's working within the Matrix around the body and and I I don't know just something I I'm fascinated with is like is is there anything that people have found in different cultures that represent something from another culture without it being like necessarily related cuz then like how we talked about before we started recording you see something in one culture you see it in another culture and a totally different Paradigm and you're like to me now I have found a very deep truth that that tells my rational mind to shut up and you know what I'm saying yeah yeah no totally that's that old adage when you see the way deeply you see it in all things it's like you see the Dow deeply you see it in all things and I really everywhere I look I'm always relating it to that and I think that's really the power of it is you you interpret your reality through this map of this understanding of the numerics and then as you bring it back to Medicine more and more as a practitioner you know you become so much more sophisticated or even I mean a big one for me was like I've studied all these things and I you know uh I go and I I went I was cooking for this big meditation class we were having there's like cooking for like 35 people what kind of meditation was this Rory so I I do uh Sida yoga have you heard of it i' never s like s i d DH I like Sidi or S Sida okay so um it's specifically a lineage that was brought to America by Swami Muk danda okay and it's currently um under uh Swami chid vinanda okay and it's really been uh in addition to the DS practices I do it's it's it's been really powerful for me okay um and so you were cooking for this meditation so I was cooking yeah I was cooking and one of the fellow uh people helping me cook added about six times she calculated the salt to go in she added about six times the the necessary salt so so obviously I mean it's way too salty sa Savory Rory very very Savory and so uh we eat it and you know we're like oh God and I was like wait I know what to do so went in I used the five elements I first I add a bunch of honey so I use you know the uh Earth element to control the salt and then I add um and then it really it balances out like pretty quickly and it's all it's palatable at this point and then added uh between them I I added some more uh spice to it and it was actually quite good after little more that's just one example of like in everyday life that the five elements really does work and then 6G is even more incredible but I do want to get to an example of that I've been thinking about a lot is um in Western culture maybe yeah in Western culture is in jiujitsu okay so in a lot of positions where you're like lock and maybe I might lose a bunch of people who aren't familiar with jiu-jitsu but a lot of wrestling okay grappling yeah there we go um in a lot of positions where you're controlling someone you make triangular figures like a kamora or a or a triangle with your legs or you know there's all these other positions hole um you know even a rear naked these are all triangular things which are locking in positions when you do uh certain like back takes like a rolling back take or a baron bolo or you know a samurai roll you're making like a Taurus movement to rotate yourself and this other person to take the back and so that's just another example of like everyday life where I really see it but you know you also see it in all these other Traditions you see these same truths at the core of them yeah I mean I yeah it's Japanese but iido comes to mind for me for sure yeah um yeah definitely and then obviously all the Japanese Traditions right like uh Beyond just the calligraphy but the the I don't want to call it sword play that sounds like laring or something you know oddly sexual you know what I'm saying but you know you know working with a sword or something like this is they're they're moving through space in in you know curved and and straight lines simultaneously um so that that's super interesting that really you know because I think we hear numerology right at least I hear numerology and you think about the more contemporary ideas around numerology or like oh she's a three and I'm a seven we'll never get along you know what I'm saying or you know something like this there's this um you know like anagram is that we yeah yeah like there's like there's like personality type and things like this around around numbers and you know it's just it's funny to me that there's so many various permeations on things that I wanted to you know I wanted you to I'm glad that you went into it that way because I that that's what I found one of the things I found super interesting um with your with your uh with your talk so I guess you know you you have this as as as some of the the way in which you see the world right it kind of influences that and I guess you know just like a kind of like a practical question I have like how does that influence how you make decisions in in like for your for your life you know just as a you know as a practitioner as a as a husband as a I know how it affects your your you know your Jiu-Jitsu your your wrestling practice you know um but it's also you know one more boxing you know at least in the way that I the way way I understand boxing is is you're within a square but you're moving circularly within um kind of a square anyways H how does this how does how being conscious of it in the way that you are how does this affect the way that you think about the way you approach life or your practice or design in your home or making decisions you know how how does this work because I think we're all affected by things that we were influenced by coming up within our families and the cultures and the particular ethnicities that we have but then as we grow up and start to forge Our Own Way in the world we get influenced by things that we're kind of like we'll say karmically attracted to and that you're karmically attracted to this so I'm just I'm interested in in hearing how this kind of helps to form you as as you're into your you know adulthood and and having this kind of like outpouring of desire to to share things that you find that have value yeah well I the thing is I not only find it so intellectually fascinating but so practical that it really uh enlivens me and it makes me really want to share it and talk to people like you that I can see in their eyes like yeah they're really into this too and yeah um so the big I think the most tangible that that um that people can just take right away from this too in in their own lives is in my own emotional experience okay yeah so we talked about in in my lecture in dosm you come you come out of life like a branch from a tree yeah you didn't come into life you were an extension of life so everything that's occurring within you is part of life and it's part of these five elements and it's part of these six G and it's expression of this one da and so in your emotional experience every day I think about this so if I'm if I'm you know I might use the control cycle like from chapter 67 it goes into detail and I think a lot of people will sleep on the five elements but if you really grasp it it's really profound like uh it says you know anger is of the wood element so you can sedate it with um grief so if you get really upset about something and you're really angry you're holding a resentment and you're Petty about something if you get a like oh this person that you were close to just died like quickly that will dry up that anger you know like it it uh it puts things in perspective it gives that metal element sobering metal element or if you um you know you can use the we talk we have the different perspective in the Dohan we talk about our five elements a little bit differently um so like the Earth element is the center of this tetrahedron which I don't know if we'll have time to get into right now but basically it's the great harmonizer and processing and everything and if you don't have a solid Earth element you feel like something's missing yeah so I think for for our audience you know for who who aren't familiar with the Chinese kind of stuff the Earth element as the center you could consider it like your digestive area you know like we could just we I'll just make the correlation that sure people for people who are unfamiliar we can call it we could just say it's you know it's your ability to digest and break things down and and turn potential into kinetic turn food into energy turn material that you're listening to or learning into more digestible bits that that you can break down and assimilate into your own being so I I just you know I'm going to do that occasionally great great and also on on an energetic level it's our ability to digest our our reality and narratives and taking the harsh edges off of all of these chaotic emotions and you know giving it some body so you know a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down so um you know you can think about if you have a relationship for a long time and that becomes kind of like your ground and your Earth element and part of like how you've built your your narratives around and your life around and suddenly you break up that will quickly sedate that controls the water element of fear so if you're if you have this you know energy this negative energy of the Earth element it will control so like if you have a bad breakup and you're so heartbroken and you have that missing that like pulls on the heart you you're not afraid to you already want to die so you're not afraid of anything it's it's hard for your adrenal glands to be stimulated when you're in such like a depressive State like that can also be from the fire element controlling as well um and so you know you think of the generating cycle too like often we experience getting spooked into anger so like if you know you're driving your car and someone cuts you or even if you you know make a mistake you can get mad at the other person because you get spooked the water the anger will spring from yeah the fear and then if you express outwardly enough especially in a close relationship it moves into sadness and then it's processed in this Narrative of oh I'm a bad person you can go into this you know grief and and regret and you know oh I'm a bad person have I damaged this relationship into fear and so you see all if once you see these patterns in your own emotional self and see these these these karmic Cycles which are just uh unconscious patterns and you see the patterns of it and you can map it to this geometry and watch it they become less personal yes yeah so it has less grip on you and and that's what we call Dow Ren it gives you more dowst view which is essentially more zoomed out from the person I can say from myself that having an understanding of the psycho emotional aspects of the elements in the own my own way that I see them because you and someone else could take the exact same lecture from a teacher and the way that you interpret them and the way that you apply them is going to be slightly different so everyone's going to have a slightly different relationship with these things but I could say that taking this into my relationships and taking this into the clinic I have a much better ability to dance with people a much better ability to dance with people and sometimes I also have a understand when I say dance I don't necessarily mean literally dance so some you know excuse me sir Let's Dance um but what I mean is I guess I could say engaging in meaningful conversation and sometimes difficult conversations or vulnerable conversations in a way that I am able to see where someone is coming from what element or what psycho emotional state they're tending towards and then kind of play with my um energy in the way that I address them so as to complement what they're doing and not feeling like I'm overwhelming or I'm controlling them or I'm being like a petulant child or something like this you know um and then also simultaneously knowing when someone resonates with me naturally being myself because there are some people who we interact with they just kind of don't we don't get along well with them and a lot of that time is that's personality and it's not personality like oh I like NASCAR and you like you know whatever knitting you know it's not that kind of personality I know you know that but I'm just you know making Point yeah yeah yeah yeah um that your personality type whether you're more Earth or more water more metal more fire more wood those are the five just in case for you know those who haven't you know aren't familiar that you might be more you know more Earth in one in one setting and somebody might be more water in another and as your interaction together they might feel like you're just too much for them that your your sweetness and your giving is just like overbearing and like just taking too much of the to up too much space And so there's a natural tendency to be like no I I don't want to even be around this person and this doesn't really have much anything to do with the way that someone is interacting with you it's just who they are and having this information to me has become extremely valuable and dealing with not the people who I get along with well but in conflict resolution in particular communication and then with with patients because people come in we don't know them and we're trying to you know Foster an an air of communication and compassion and to be able to leave what I where I normally operate from and take a different position for the betterment of that person even if it's slightly uncomfortable for me I can oh okay that's where they are all right now I at least I know now that like I can I can change myself a little bit or change my Approach maybe that's a better way of putting it I can change my Approach in order to foster a bridge with them but I I don't think that many people have that ability and it's not that they can't they haven't been introduced to that as a possibility because they don't have the frame of reference so this over the last couple years as I've kind of dove into this kind of ideology a little bit more has really been a fascinating kind of Psych logical foray into combining you know you know yian style kind of psychology and Five Element um psychoemotional approaches to treatment the kind of marriage of those things two things together has been very very deep for me and um so I'm I love to hear you talk about it because I'm like oh yeah sweet yeah yeah I I totally agree with you and I've I've thought about this in myself in the clinic as well it's like in in terms of like five elements like you learn to sense what element like each patient needs and it could be it could change dayto day too you know it's like okay does this person need more of a wood out like an aggressive like look you have to make these changes or else you're G to have these consequences do they need more fire like are do they need just some love in this moment and like care do they you know does it need to be sugarcoated for them for it to go down or do you do you just need to like reference some studies and give them like really dry intellectual facts yes or you know any all of those things you know you you might the urgency I would say is more uh water like but um and and just kind of circling back so that we don't leave people like with their minds hanging so you were at this cooking you were at this Meditation Retreat oh yeah yeah yeah oh yeah there there's there's the meditation because I you know you keep that you keep the thing so you were you were cooking it was too salty you added some some sweet and probably some acrid and uh and it was good and then and then from there because I wanted to I wanted to hear how you kind of got into this yeah yeah so that that that was it I mean go and go and uh you know experiment for yourself how the control cycle can make for really more delicate FL flavor so you can you can add more um add more flavor and make a richer you know whatever you're eating dish without having to water it down and so how did that how did that get you into the the kind of like the DS numerology as a as a thing to start that you were or were you already studying oh no I was already I've already been studying a long time okay so how how did you I guess how did you first get into it then I mean how did you go from I mean you're you're a number oriented person you know which you could say probably is a metallic quality um but so how did you go from like being very proficient in math and you know having all of this kind of like those Tendencies towards processes to taking yes another process oriented kind of view of the world but it's far more holotropic and holistic you know and it's it is it's just a different it's a different path I guess I could say you know um so H how did you switch from kind of one life path to not something totally different but it's definitely a pivot like that is not when you first were I'm sure when you were sitting in those rooms doing that research for the NSF that they were not like you were not thinking you know what I'm gonna do in a couple years yeah I'm gonna start studying transition yeah yeah how how did how did that come about um so after school I went and I did um Insurance underwriting exting my God you are an Iron Man dude um and you know I just I wasn't that into office politics you know I still loved numbers and making models and stuff but the whole um you know climbing the corporate ladder and all that just was not not appealing to me and so I finally decided you know I'm gonna all right I'm gonna quit and I at the time um the movie Interstellar it just came come out awesome movie yeah and so I saw that and I was like oh yeah I was thinking about all right what am I gonna do and you know it's funny to think back but when in your 20s and you like you don't have a job it's like oh my God one of my it's you know a crisis yeah and so I was like oh yeah I've always loved physics this was like my my first in high school I made like a Mysteries of the universe club and we'd talk about uh you know particle wave Duality and Quantum tunneling and and all these interesting phenomena and so I went and I started to get some I needed some more prere uh at Villanova University and so I was taking some courses there and I was loving it and I also I started to learn how all of these physicists from the the quantum Revolution like Tesla Oppenheimer bore you name it yeah they were all really into Eastern thought yes and so I started looking into Eastern thought more and I saw you know how did these forest dwellers of antiquity know about time dilation or and it just really touched it was just the perfect timing of everything and I I um I was really open for it at the time and I ended up through um just by chance I met this DST Grandmaster and and through one of his students MH M and I went to go study with him and what I saw him able to do when I he was treating some patients and he would treat like stage four cancer patient what was he what was he using as his treatment method moxa herbs but they were also doing chemotherapy okay okay um and but what that because you can't really see much I mean you hear about the results but yeah what I was able to see from his pulse diagnosis blew my mind he he would take the Pulse and he was just frantically writing on this page and he'd have like eight or nine pages of notes wow uh with like you know he was writing in Korean so I couldn't translate it but like some shapes on it too and all this stuff and he um he would just unpack the person's entire life and say this happened to you at this age and it affected you in this way and now you have this condition if you don't make these changes it will continue along this course so so let me do two things one let's just talk about pulse taking for those who don't take pulses so people who go to the doctor which I don't suggest but if you want to okay but if you do they're going to take your pulse and they're generally going to probably put their fingers on your neck and or maybe on your wrist and they're going to get your heart rate that is not necessar that is not what you're what you're talking about right now what Rory is discussing is the sort of Chinese medical way of taking the pulse which is at the wrist you know and there's various ways of doing this but you generally you're feeling someone's pulse and it's not yes it is the heart rate but it's far more than just the numbers of beats per minute there are like anything far more subtle qualities that that pulse has and it it tells a story and that kind of pulse taking reminds me a lot of some other Chinese medical pulse taking systems this the shangan Lan in particular which is called the tretis on cold damage which we are not going to get into because that is way too deep in the weeds even for acupuncturist so we're going to leave it alone but uh needless to say it watching him do that and and and being able to get basically someone's life story from pulse taking from putting his fingers on their wrists and feeling some beats and you know whatever um he and was he right I guess is my next question was he correct yes I mean it I knew that he was different at that point that I it wasn't just some system too that he was tapped into to something and at that moment you know I knew that I was I was making the change to still being on the frontier of mystery but in a much more embodied way and um yeah I maybe after the show I I have uh I could show you a brief recording of yeah doing my father that's so cool yeah I like that plus that plus that line is cool being on the frontier of mystery I'll probably title the uh podcast that I always every every title that I have from a podcast always comes from the episode you know there's always something cool that comes up um all right so so you saw this person and you said I'm I'm sold and you started to and that's how and that's what that's what Drew you in yeah yeah okay I like that and then you have uh currently a clinical practice outside of Philadelphia with your wife is that correct that's correct and you you practice this style of yeah we we we practice uh the Dohan clinical style and are you able to do that also no not like that I was hoping for a different answer yes I I wish I totally you ate eggs for breakfast again you know better three days a week it's most that was crazy one time I did see him be like you ate this a week ago and it caused this uh reaction um anyways uh what we can do is so I learned the system of how to do it it it requires a different dimension to map the entire uh life and in doing that you're you're following the 6G instead of just for people who don't know about pulse diagnosis I think about it a lot like signal processing in mathematics okay where you're referencing sign curves like in in us talking right now it's yeah it's traveling through electromagnetic you know it's traveling in the these sign curves and then that's interpreted uh discreetly and so there's all these different types of ways to interpret the sign curve and they have their efficiencies and deficiencies and there's many systems of taking the pulse as well yes um and so but the pulse isn't just a laminer wave like there's no like body like in a river there's all types of curls and everything so that's what you're looking at so sometimes you'll feel something medial or lateral to the pulse itself and and you can generally you can see something coming within within a number of days or something that's we call it a guest energy which is in the Yuni so it's still influencing the system and it could be something in their mind that's already happened and that they're they're stuck on or something that may happen and sometimes a lot of it's just you talk to someone and you change the the way that they're processing something and that guest energy will will shift in that moment too yeah yeah and there's well we're getting too deep into there but there's a host in guest treatments that you know can then right but I that last point that you have I think is a very important one and one that you know we haven't had actually this deep of a Chinese medical discussion on the podcast the entire time I okay sorry I can no you're good bro don't even trip because we haven't we haven't done it you know so I think for students of Chinese medicine which we have a good number uh because I I taught and Eric still teaches at Pacific College of Oriental medicine or what do they call Pacific College of Health Sciences now teaches as the as they calling lovingly call it you know uh so we have a number of those people then we have I have patients of mine and hello people who are listening to this and and I'm sure that you'll probably share this with some of your patients as as a way to drive home you know the the the things that you talk to them about in the clinic which is what I totally do things that I discussing here are are with me they're present for me as I as we talk about them and then they come with me into the clinic and they help to inform what I am sharing with people and then I go hey you know what go listen to that uh that episode called uh not enough jesuses that's what you know which was one we did a couple weeks ago that I've been quite fascinated with but um that to to your point we are feeling what the body is communicating without words and it has to be interpreted via our perception of you know as you said lamin or flow or you know waves in in a sense you know what I'm saying but that we can have effect physiologically not just psychologically but physiological physical effects on the body via change in perception or even via like very light touch very light touch and case in point I we had some um medical students that were doing some I guess alternative medicine rounds for their you know for their degree and they came to Pacific College when I was in school and I was the the head intern at that time for that for the shift and so they were following me in my in my rounds you know and I said okay well let's take the Pulse and they're like okay so they just grabbed their they you know brutishly grabbed someone's wrist and squeezed it like a you know soft apple or I you know whatever um and they're like okay what am I feeling for I'm like well that is not how you you know that is how a gorilla grabs a banana that is not you know so I kind of taught them where to put their fingers I said okay I am going to take not even a needle but just like a metal a tube known in Japanese as a ttian and it's used to to kind of have like an effect like a needle but you don't insert anything because Japanese acupuncture is very much about as as light and as little input as possible but intentional but very slight and so I took and I just touched a couple points on the body and I just held and waited till I felt the chi come and then I said okay take don't touch them while I'm doing this and then go back and feel again and they did and the eyebrows were on the forehead they're like oh wow I said yeah it doesn't it doesn't have to take that much and and and I love the point that you bring up that like you can do the same thing with conver via conver conscious conversation you know and and helping to someone to kind of take what they're uh what they're thinking and more importantly how they're thinking and and give them a new opportunity to think differently and see something from a different perspective do you have um an example that you could share of of of that with somebody that you've worked with that you've you know when you see the light go off in someone's mind and and we're lucky because we're practitioners and so we have the opportunity to do this every day if maybe sometimes we talk to a friend or a loved one and you know we get to do that for them once in a while but I mean literally we get to do this on a daily basis if we're lucky uh well it just makes me think of I'm trying to think of a specific example but then I'm thinking oh I wouldn't want to yeah yeah do this to anyone that I'd be sending this to okay okay did it happen how about when you were a student and when you were learning with with a Johan like was somebody able to to do that to you and how did that moment feel even let's just call it an aha moment you know you know and that aha moments also have physiological changes you know you know happen to your you know we we'll throw I don't know if you have a sibling that you want to throw under the bus or something like that we well I mean it could sure yeah we could whatever you're comfortable with Rory it's all good brother well I'll start I just want to get to a larger point of of of um something that I learned early on in Dohan is that anything can be medicine yeah when you really study the the numerics you learn that it's all Just Energy manipulation and being a Healer is almost like the same position as being a magi I know that might bring up too many uh weird connotations or or subconscious connections but you you are manipulating energy for a specific result and in you know probably for health and happiness yeah and so anything can be medicine so sometimes it's it's uh you know just a couple words to help someone process something better sometimes it's it's a a spiritual understanding sometimes it's you know you need more bone broth in your diet sometimes it's just you you know you need more Vitamin D it can be any of these dimensional uh levels and I I use this all the time with patience and it gets back to what we were talking about with the five elements too it doesn't even have to be just five elements it can be the way that the way that someone's approaching something which fundamentally is you know the numerology but I was with someone in the car and this person was they had just had a breakup we were talking about and so they were really uh you know they were wounded and so they were really prickly they had a lot of wood energy to kind of make a force feel around us and we were all suffering uh because of it so I start looking for uh a song that'll help the generating cycle along and just move it and I found like uh Alicia Keys Some People Want it All and yeah then she started crying and this was a family member she started crying and then she was like I just don't get you know and then was much so what Rory for people who are just wanting to take a little bit of a that that piece right you're looking at you're looking at the wood element you're looking at like anger frustration irritability as the Primary Emotion in the moment right and that that needs to that needs to move that that that B that that sense of b b binded boundness whatever the right word is English wasn't my first language so you have to forgive me you know it was goooo Gaga that was my no but you know so you have the sense you could you could feel someone's stuckness right and then you you and and so what was the what was the emotion that you were looking to kind of help move that through like when you you found song what were you looking for yeah so I was naturally just trying to move that into the fire element so like sadness and in in the Doan perspective I never saw this in Chinese medicine school and I thought it was really fascinating is that it applies yinyang Theory to even five elements so each of the organs not only just has one emotion to it but it has its its yin and yang nature so obviously the heart is is love and it's also heartbreak and and that joy and sadness and so let's do all of them Let's do let's do all of them just for people yeah yeah and to so it's not just theoretical like in in anyone who's listening your most tender moments like the moment you get married or maybe a proposal or you know a baby born whatever it is like your most joyful tender heart opening moments you feel this like this heartbreak in there simultaneously the sadness why do we cry in these moments of pure joy and we feel like this like it can almost the love can be like almost difficult to Bear but because the yin and yang go together they're always together so yeah then we go into the so and then W would we talk about um anger anger is also uh creativity so it's like frustration and your ability to like problem solve this this thing if you think about on the organic level like the blood has has two elements of the the white blood cells and the red blood cells the liver stores the blood um and then uh the kidneys are also um like a fear detector so they are our fear but we also learn that our our jure or Spirit of that yeah our will is from the kidneys so it's it it requires there's no Adventure movie without the sense of fear yeah too so you need that to have like drive and uh my friend calls that like being at the top of the roller coaster you know you're excited but you're also scared it's GNA yeah yeah and for a while when I first started doing lectures I would like use I would think about like oh when was the time when I was like really sad if I was like really anxious to do to do like a lecture in front of a bunch of people or something like that and and um yeah and so you think about the the the metal is also grief but it's also like letting go like holding on and letting go you think about your large intest your colon and your your lungs it's this inhale and exhale and um the Earth element is worry and then it's also processing healthy digestion of whatever the sit situation is and so in this specific situation like the liver it's not just our our physiological detoxing but it's also our energetic detoxing yeah and so when that gets overloaded with a negative emotion that will the diaphragm will get blocked off to prevent that pathogenic Chi from from injuring the heart and so if someone so people will get prickly and they'll they'll be stuck in their liver their diaphragm will be stuck a lot of if you're stressed overly stressed you may notice that you and you're like thinking about this thing that's stressing you sometimes you'll stop breathing you know you'll notice need to breathe yeah my diaphragm is blocked off that's people tend to breathe they breathe up a little bit higher yeah up in there up in the upper part of the chest and then I see and I'm sure you do too tons of like tight neck scalings and trapezius muscles occipital and lateral headaches because of how this is here and then tightness in the jaw and and all of that is from from suspended breath you know Waiting to Exhale literally yeah yeah absolutely also a movie with Angela Basset for those keeping score I haven't seen that one yeah no me neither but I remember the poster okay um so back in that specific example it was to um move that pathogenic Chi into the heart feel the injury that she was feeling and um just get some get an energy an environment a you know a Heavenly energy a surrounding environment that would facilitate this movement uh of the generating cycle forward so you wanted to kind of create an an an atmosphere of sadness if you will in order to let the anger bleed out into it and be held by that yeah to naturally progress into so first injured and were upset about it and often when the diaphragm blocks that pathogenic Liberty move it it uh you know controls the invades the Earth element and then it all of our we get all these resentments and narratives that kind of bind us into that anger and so by creating the sadness it can naturally you know Bloom into the into the heart region and and what you bring up a good point and I don't know if you're doing it consciously or not but like being the the Earth ele you know talking about the Earth element the the the breaking down of the stories but also the creation of them right it's like the yin and the Yang of it that like the narratives in our heads are often highly inaccurate yeah and that like the the but they're required because they hold reality in place M even if it's incorrect some part of them was taken from something that's that's the seed then the seed gets planted and that grows a tree or bush depending on what you're into and then that that yields fruit and if that fruit is coming from an inaccurate seed then that fruit is then going to be inaccurate and our stories that we tell ourselves and then um recapitulate and then redigested digest and break down over and over again is just this looping kind of you know and uh what is the word that they use that this in Chinese the Chinese medicine uh not excessive pondering but uh rumination yeah yeah yeah you know what I'm saying and that's that's how that goes so I I just I found that as you were talking about that I was like oh yeah that this is one that's one word that has been more I guess present for me over the last year is trying to interrupt that trying to cut through that narrative that unhealthy narrative that people have and provide some language to that to be able to help them change physic you know not just mentally but then into the physi into the physiology as well because they're both you know um related and some of the some of the meditative Traditions don't give the body enough credit for its presence because it is breaking down and decaying and we have to you know definitely have to you know polish our our Shen our Spirits you know our souls um but we are product of embodiment at the same time and it does have correlates that are influenced by our ancestry and what they've been through and we inherit Tendencies even if we have no idea that they're influencing us and so I think that like this kind of thinking is a different form of empowerment you know of unlocking some of the you know what we call Mysteries which to other people call a system of study of Being Human there there is no operate operator manual owner manual for this most advanced piece of equipment and we ride it every day without knowing how to use it you know what I'm saying yeah and so to me this is like part of my own um life's mission is to figure out how this thing works before I have to get into another one you know what I'm saying and maybe I could bring some Whispers of it with me next time and get it a little bit sooner and you know figure the the game out a little bit more easily that if that you know that fits yeah I'm I'm right there with you I would say that's my my main objective in my heart that spiritual development's really the only thing for me that's what it's all about and and uh and I'm blessed to be able to I don't know if you share some of those insights with your patients in the clinic but I do you know I definitely do and people appreciate it not everybody does sometimes it turns people off but I I don't know if you get a chance to do that with some of your um there's an art to reading like when when it's appropriate for sure but yeah I do and and I never try and you know I think a big switch for me was when I was so determined upon a big switch in my own practice and maybe not that's not the same for everyone but when I shift the objective from improving myself and uh developing myself to an act of devotion when I could really like feel um the life inside me and like really connect with my you know not to be to cheesy but like connect with your your own heart like when when your heart really is connected to your soul it's like that's the Fulfillment of Life there that's that's really uh what it's about for me no I I'm with you I mean we didn't get a chance to talk about it today so you're gonna have to come on again and we'll have to do a a DMT episode sure sure we just didn't get a chance to get you know that's how it works but one of the things I I heard in in my very first um iwasa ceremony was um the way to the cosmos is through the heart like within the first 10 minutes you know and I was like oh okay sweet you know I guess I'm good now I don't I don't have to sit here and puke in this bucket right like I'm good no no sorry you got a you got an early key but there will be more coming down the road but I agree with you um yeah yeah that that's a really that's a really nice sentiment Rory actually like changing that changing the mindset from self-improvement to an act of devotion I think that's um and and when you say an act of devotion is that an act of devotion as an expression of gratitude or an act of devotion as a a means of embodying divinity like how does that part this would be the last kind of thing that we probably talk about before you know but like how does that what is break that down a little bit more because I am interested in hearing I I like this mindset I think you know when you have for whatever reason you have those experiences you go into a ceremony and like you said you you have this deep truth and it sounds like a you know a a platitude and but you feel the truth you feel it in your whole body yeah and so um I think um I I got I got lost in my own train of thought can you repeat the question yeah sure no problem so it's it's okay it happens once in a while um you said moving from self-improvement yeah an act of devotion right and so I I understand the self-improvement part and and it's it's an important piece of life you know for sure because we we should be getting better at things it shows it shows devotion devotion on the side of dedication meaning it's important and the more that you do it the more that it's going to yield to you something like you talked about we come from life like a you know branch on a tree right and so the more that that tree goes the deeper that's going to get but an act but an act of devotion is is is a different expression of life than than or a different expression of spirituality than what gets sold as self-improvement or self-help and so I want to do expound upon this a little bit well I think it it it shifts it it is a gratitude but you have you have an experience and you see your own nature and you become so the it's so intoxicating the feeling that it's not about I I have to do this thing it's that old you know saying it's not it's you should shift it from you have to do this to I get to do this this and so it's it it's a transformation of like determination and grit to uh excitement and love and like I love to do these things you know I love to teach and I feel like I'm I'm a better teacher and I'm a better practitioner and I'm I'm much my spiritual practice is much more fulfilling because I'm so uh in love with it because I love it because I'm going to do it all the time that's what I want to do and that becomes your nature it's like a natural expression and and in my own experience meditation is the focusing of the ministerial fire to the chongi but it requires the Imperial fires consent so in layman's in non-chinese medicine terms these medicines yes it's it's as we all understand it's bringing the mind to the present moment but it requires the fire of the the heart's consent it really requires that peace and so when you can when you can do that and feel the fruit of that it it's just that's the biggest Boon I I agree with you I tell people on a daily basis that not showering nor brushing your teeth is more important than making time for meditation and we have the time we just have to do it there is not a thing you know I I'll do these um cacao ceremonies which are long things and we're doing all kinds of holotropic and meditative type breath work and people have very very deeply Transcendent experiences uh one coming up this weekend but by the time this podcast comes out I won't be able to plug it so I'll just you know talk about it whatever and um I I I will have people give a little bit of an introduction because it's a communal experience I could have anywhere between 15 to 30 people at at these things and and I often will say some you know I say introduce yourself tell us what you'd like to be called and then give us your favorite cartoon as growing up or tell us what you do or what you like to do and this last time I said tell us tell me what you do in this life not your job but what you do in this life life and I think I it got to me at the end because I I can't think about it I'm trying to come up with a question I can't you know I can't lead first I have to come back to me at the end and uh I gave them my a name that was given to me upon an empowerment uh a Buddhist empowerment and then I said I teach meditation and I believe that to be the greatest thing that I could do in this lifetime and I mean that you know wholeheartedly so um I I hear what you're saying and I and I I love the way that you put that you know I think that's it's the greatest gift if you can connect someone to their own Divinity the Dow within that's at the center of everyone that is the greatest humanitarian service I think you can do that that is it that is it I'll tell you one DMT story because I think it's relevant if we have time do we have time we got we got whatever time you want you know it's all good I I want I sure we have I want to make sure we have all of all of our stories set for next time too though you know what I'm saying so but go ahead okay well it's just very relevant to the whole you know work then let's we'll we'll we'll finish it right here you go ahead and and take take it okay so the the shift from uh self-improvement to to devotion and joy and and like the Fulfillment of life being in in what you love that that is the feeling of fulfillment of life and so uh I had this I have a very at the time I still do my Chong and everything but the mindset was very different and so it was very militant and I would push through and I would hold horse stances for like 10 minutes and in this one Dohan style and I smoked DMT prior to doing this horse dance and I encountered these beings which I had never met before a very different space very like neony and these these beings were approaching and I was like kind of like energetically coagulating like a little afraid of them I wasn't sure what the interaction was going to be and um and then when they got close they were really playful and it's all telepathically you know this Gets Lost in Translation but they they said to me like um so uh why are you doing that and I'm like uh like I think it's a good idea and they were like all like poking fun of me like are you having a good time like you know and then they're like come on let's show you this like like the fun and the joy is like where the life is at and that's not to say that hardw work isn't important in everything but yeah it was just a lesson that was important for me at that moment and um that that wasn't what totally made the shift there was a lot of events but uh I thought that was just fitting that that is that is very fitting I like I'm always down to to end or begin on a d on a DMT influence story you know you know you know you're just so um psycho energetically emotionally vulnerable in those spaces that the lessons that come through are so uniquely personal and deep that they are more valuable than the most precious metal you know on this planet and and and those are Peak experiences and I you know they're they're worth it they're they're totally worth it so um anyway thank you for sharing thank you for sharing that and thank you for sharing everything my friend this was this was really great uh I'd love to have you on again we we there there there's so much more to to cover and uh you know you're passionate speaker and and have a lot to share so um I was definitely uh educated and entertained I asked questions uh that were just for my dumbass so you know that's you know that's all good with me um before we before we part out of here and I you know do my little closing thing is there anything else that you would like to share in particular particular about you know yourself or you know anything you got coming up or you know I know I asked you this earlier but I figured i' give you you know just a moment to to say a little parting shot to our audience that you might know or you know will be familiar with this after this uh not I don't have anything really to I think I'll just say you know thank you so much for having me on I've really enjoyed uh speaking with you and I enjoy I enjoy you as a person so thank you yeah yeah yeah yeah your enthusiasm and and your all of that shines through so yeah thank you a pleasure talking to you yeah no this this was great thank you for coming on and and you know again for people who are I I've been saying this now but like if you've listened to the end you are your attention span is within the top 10% of the population of the United States so uh congratulations for for getting here and for for you know whoever is listening to this to Rory's audience thank you guys for tuning in um for my audience as always uh I want to say thank you to everybody uh for listening I want to thank thank Rory for coming on for sure um you if you like our work obviously like subscribe share uh if you want to send us an email uh Jin and Tantra gmail.com or leave a a like or subscribe or leave a comment in the YouTube section you can hit us up on Instagram Jin and Tantra podcast we post all of our stuff up there as well uh if you have any questions or you know anything in particular for Rory uh please feel free to email me that I can uh put you in contact with him um if you're interested or if you're in and around the Philadelphia area and you want to make an appointment with him I'll be glad to hook you up uh Rory does actually have some uh lectures that are recorded that if anybody is interested in um in in purchasing or accessing those I will give you the link to that as well uh they are totally worth it I you know did one with him live about a month ago and um you know despite his useful appearance he has a lot of wisdom behind him so I I find it to be uh entertaining and and authentic which uh for me those are very important things when listening to conversations like this is that people got to be real and I definitely feel like you know you're you're being real um with all of this which is so awesome and you know so empowering to see other people live this kind of life and pursue these kinds of things even as Society does what it does ass backwards with attention spans that are you know four seconds or less you know like I want mine to be you know more and and more and more and more to be able to be present and and have questions and and dive deep into things that you're saying and um so yeah that's uh that's our mission one of one of many here so uh thanks for coming on again thanks everybody for tuning in for Eric and Rory this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one [Music] peace