one.

Hey fellow G& those of us like our spirituality with a twist. Well, we for this episode are talking about suffering. Quite a grabber for an episode, right? So that's what we're going to be talking about. It is part of our ongoing discussion on narcissism and its features, especially compares with other Christianities and maybe other spiritual beliefs. Um, we're doing this because in part the situation in the world where obviously there's a lot of what they call in the Buddhist world dooka or dispass, satisfaction or suffering kind of going on um lots a lot of this at work and uh we have this desire to ask this kind of the big questions like essentially about like what the [...] is happening. So that's what we're going to try to do. We're going to talk try to talk about this issue uh primarily from a gnostic point of view but also looking at it from other points of view too. So, a very deep and philosophical and metaphysical episode to come. But first, we'll ask you to do all the things that people always ask you to do, which is the like and the subscribe, maybe share an episode, maybe write a review. Um, we're all ultimately trying to escape from the suffering of the algorithm. So, if you can help us out doing that, that would be awesome. You know, as we like to say on this little pod, it's a labor of love. We're trying to sp share things that we think are psychosspiritually meaningful. So, if you can help us out, that would be greatly appreciated.

And on that note, yeah, if people would do me a favor, do us a favor, leave a comment uh on here, even if it's just a letter or something like this. I I feel like since we've been on this um topic of Christianity and history of Christianity and then moving in here now are not that people care, not that we are totally attached to it, but like and I we I didn't talk about this Eric earlier, so I apologize. Uh, our views are way, way down,

way down. And it's interesting because as soon as we started talking about this, that's when it happened. So, I'm not saying maybe people just aren't interested in it, but our content has been relatively within the same band over the last couple years. So, anyways, audience, enough said. Thank you so much for listening and tuning in. Leave a comment or a thumbs up. That that helps us. That's it. So what you think people you think people don't like talking about Christianity?

I I I don't I'm not saying it's the people.

Ah interesting.

Anyways

interesting. Okay. Um interesting. Okay. So I guess to like be considered as we go.

Yes.

All right. Well okay. So uh we'll see if this performs better in the algorithm. Talking about suffering. Okay. Okay, we'll see.

That's right. Yeah.

Uh, all right. So, well, I think like, you know, what got me, you know, like as a starting point for this would be just really getting to how important this question is, right? like the fact that uh this whole question of like what's the source of human suffering is probably I think one of like the quintessential like religious psychosspiritual questions you got in the whole world right

and what one thinks about that why does this even exist and then you know to the extent that it does exist what do you do to fix it and like how you source it then really kind of matters Mhm.

So, you know, I think that, you know, one of the biggest promises of like spirituality, tantra, Buddhism and all the other things that we have as sort of our home bases are like what this is about. And it made a big difference to me like even back in my 20s when I was first getting into these questions and I was like going to study Zen and all that. That was really one of the main questions that certainly in the Buddhist world like people are saying that they're trying to address. you know, the Buddhist thing was like, how do I deal with the problem of like the suffering of humans and other living things? Like, what do we do about that? I'm taking that problem really seriously. Do you see that in the same context, Daniel?

Yeah. Yeah, I do.

Okay. So, then you might wonder like I'm going to use like the Buddhist conversation about this just a little bit because then you end up with this thing of like, well, what is, you know, like what is this this word dooka or what gets translated as suffering? Like what do they really mean by that? And uh I think the tantric Buddhist world being as it is, especially the parts that we're coming from, they're willing to like say, "Okay, here's what they mean." And they're really willing to spell it out. So, you know, quick, but just these are the things that you're trying to solve. Birth, aging, sickness, death. These are the questions that you're trying to grapple with, right, as a human being.

I would also add relevance in there.

Well, I mean, you could put that in if you want. Yeah. meaning

well people have I I I think it and I say this because I think people who are seeking for relevance especially in positions of power do tons and tons of damage in the process for them trying to hold on to to relevance in one sense you could call it power in another sense but I think re I think relevancy you know how do you and then especially people in power dictators and things like this when they get to the end of their life. It's they they rarely turn into like more positive people. It ends up being like, okay, how do I leave my legacy? How do I leave my mark? How am I going to be remembered? And this ends up having detrimental effects, which causes all the other things that you just mentioned.

Well, I guess I mean I was doing the technical aspect of this, but we can put other words in. And I guess you know you're saying like relevance means like

I guess the way you're framing that is something like you get to the end of your life and you feel like what like what do I do to like again leave a mark or something like that.

Yeah. Essentially I guess I could say maybe it's it's a it's a relation to like trying to overcome death in a sense like I'm live on forever, right?

Yeah. I guess people tried to do that in different ways, right?

Yeah.

Some people tried to do that through family things, right? I have my kids or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

As a way of trying to cope with this idea of like life ending, but I I guess so there's like eight of them. The four are like it's hard to be born. It's hard to go through the whole process of growth and development. You watch kids, it's not that easy. I suppose you can flash back on your teenage years and go, "Wow, that wasn't pleasant." You know, parts of that

you're going through all those changes and how it

plays havoc with your emotions and havoc with things. Uh, sickness of course unpleasant, aging, you know, as you see the body isn't going to work as well as it used to, you know, that's like not a good thing.

Yeah. And I get what you're saying with death and it's like then you're talking about almost like I guess what you're bringing up is like coping mechanisms around that.

What do you do to cope? Yeah.

Yeah, I see it. Then they give four others and maybe it fits into what you're talking about here too, Daniel. So they'll say, I mean, just to give the technical stuff with this, right? And you know, this part of the educational goal of this podcast, but you know, uh, dealing with unpleasant situations is a kind of a dooka, right? You're stuck with something that's unpleasant. Loss of connection to things that you love and you want to be close to is kind of an unpleasant thing. So, they kind of observe that, too.

And then, uh, this idea of really not getting something that you deeply want, like that's particularly painful, right? So, you know, if someone really wants to be a mom or something and it just doesn't work out for them, like those kinds of deep feelings. I want to be an artist and no one recognizes me and it's painful. You know, these kinds of deeper pains.

Um, and then the last one they have is dealing with the flaws that are there within the body and the mind that they're kind of erratic and unstable, right? By their nature, the body will go up and down, the mind will be up going up and down, and you have to sort of deal with those things. So, those are the four. I know what you think about the relevant stuff. Do you feel like that kicks back to some of these other things, too?

Well, yeah, for sure. You're talking about not being recognized as an artist.

Um, I think even the familiar one, there's there's like obviously a large genetic component to this. I mean, you have children, Eric. I know many of most of my friends and family members do. Uh, so, and I think most people agree that they they've enjoyed that experience. Not easy. Um, but there is a bit of a legacy in this case. I mean, without the children, we wouldn't be here. So, I'm someone's child, you're someone's child. There's the ne necessity to continue the species, you know, which we we rarely we rarely look at ourselves as a part of a species together. We're very focused on how we're different, not how we're similar, right? But I think in that sense there's its own idea of legacy you know left passing trying to pass on the better qualities that you know parents have for their children as a way of maybe not staying relevant but addressing your uh impact on the world after you're gone.

Yeah. We were talking before we got on Mike about like the deeper things that drive people and this is just you know hits me on a personal level and we'll see how it hits other people but I didn't have any real connections to like being a parent. I didn't really care. Mhm.

Uh, which seems like it could be a painful thing for kids to hear, but it's actually almost ends up being the reverse because I can say to my son or my daughter like, "Well, I wasn't really even that into this, but you're so awesome that you've made it a joy." Which is true. Like that's actually the truth of the situation. So, I don't feel much of like the legacy thing though connected to that

which I think goes to show that there's like these deeper driving impulses that we were talking about before Mike and people. And I suppose if you do feel like you really didn't get those things that are feeding those deeper impulses, then you'll feel a a vacuum or something. Right.

Right.

Especially at the end of the life or something like that, this can feel like a real hole.

So, all right. So, I mean, that's I, you know, just to do it, you know, if you're like, well, what are we even talking about? At least that's a way of trying to frame the question, right?

And then what do you do about that? which I guess it's bold to say that there should even be an answer because as we were talking about a little bit last episode, you know, if you get to like the more scientific materialist kind of way of thinking about things as we were kind of kicking it around last time, there really is no answer and really no problem per se, right? because you know there's no underlying you know um there's no underlying like deeper thing that you have to crack within that essentially you know you live in a universe like we were talking about that's kind of statistical kind of random kind of chaotic you know it doesn't necessarily have some underlying thing that has to be solved things are go up and down it just is how the [...] it is you'll ride whatever the waves are of your life and there's no so in that sense there's nothing really to be solved It's just okay. That's just life. It goes up and down and you deal with the problems of the world as they present themselves. But you there's nothing it wouldn't make any sense on some level if you have that worldview to try to crack some deeper problem because the problem doesn't sort of really exist, I guess. Does that make sense to you? How do you think about that?

No.

But people think that way, right? It's a cultural phenomenon, right?

Yeah. Yeah. But no, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. I sometimes wonder what do you think the percentage of folks who kind of feel that way because it's such a deep thing at least in American culture to think this way especially because

say explain it a little bit differently because I don't I'm I'm not grasping what you're putting down.

Well I mean if you really believe that like I'm a end product of some evolutionary thing uh there's no particular thing for me to solve. I mean, a lot of my friends who are like that, they're like, "Well, what you what problem is there even to solve, you know? It's just [...] happens,

right? Forces play themselves out. Maybe my life will be good, maybe it'll be bad." But there's no deeper

like nut to crack or something. If you think like a Buddha or something, he's like, "I'm going to try to solve the problem of human suffering,

right? So, I'm going to meditate and explore and I'm going to try to crack this thing." Right?

So, your approach is a very very materialistic. You're talking about a very w, you know, western-minded uh spiritual materialistic person who looks at life as a collection of random occurrences and chaos and entropy and negropy and it just is what it is. So you ride your do your best. If you want to be a good person, that's good. That probably feels better

um and gives better to the world because you're doing good and that's nice to help. We all want to be helped. But ultimately there's nothing else to crack because it's a quagmire inside of a puzzle inside of a Rubik's cube being digested by an an ant. So why bother?

Yeah. There's nothing really to do. You know what I mean?

Like that worldview doesn't lead to like you can solve relative problems. And I'm not saying that people who have this mindset, you know, aren't like kind people or something. They don't want to help other people. They do. But it's like there's nothing. There's no deep philosophical, metaphysical, spiritual thing to crack. There's nothing there, right?

The question is moot, you know?

So, I mean, it's hard to get your mind around, but I mean,

if you're looking at it from the point of view of we're so devoted to these things and that's kind of our jam, but for other people, you know, you kind of like I'm like, nah, you know, like it doesn't make sense from the way that they look at the world.

I got the book with me. I just grabbed this off the shelf.

Bruce philosophy. Yeah,

Buddhist philosophy. So, what it really is is it's a book about at least in part all these different Buddhists trying to understand their own different ideas within Buddhism because they know there's different people have different ideas, right?

But also like just trying to understand how a lot of other people in India think because it's a book written originally in India with comments

later from Tibetans. I guess that's what I'm trying to do here a little bit too to say okay how do people really think

right

and so it's part of that that tradition within Buddhism Buddhism they go okay how do people really look at the world and I guess I really believe that that's an important thing to do to try to correct okay what are people actually thinking and my friends who are maybe more from this mindset I think when you dig into it

I guess you're being philosophical this would be phenomenology true trying to get heads of how people think I think this is sort of how they you know,

yeah,

say to my friends, you know, like, okay, there's something here to crack and be like, well, there really isn't. You know,

it's a good question. Even if there I mean, forget the answer for a moment. I think it's a good question to ask oneself. What do you think about this?

Yeah, I agree. Even if you don't come up with anything or come up with some answer that changes every day or every other day or every week or whatever, just the uh you know, you and I talked earlier about remembering remembering things, remembering to ask the question,

you know, it's almost like I I feel like it's almost one of these daily things that people should check in with themselves and ask like what's important, you know, is is putting 20 seconds or 30 seconds of my day on larger philosophical, existential, universal, you know, questions in and around humanity worth the exercise in and thinking about? I would say the answer is absolutely yes, because it it's a it's very challenging for your conceptual mind. And I think it's even for a very western-minded person, it's probably a nice doorway into non-conceptual thinking. And I feel like there is so much to be um had and experienced in non-conceptual thinking especially for people who are very western-minded. I know I was talking with our uh resident anthropologist one Ryan K. Davenport on the uh telephone the other day and we were talking about meditative practice and things like this and he said that um his partner you know is is not from the US she's from you know from Eastern

yeah from Asia

Eastern Asia

and and and he said they just think different their mentality is different from birth and so what we find like astounding in some philosophical philosophical ideology to them it's like oh yeah of course it it's no other way than that because that's how it is but because they've been conditioned in that way they are able to to grasp some of those maybe more fantastic tales and for people who don't know what I'm talking about there's many stories that exist in different traditions of um they're they're anal an analogy stories, analogical stories,

parables.

Yeah. Like any tale that we tell people, you know, that to to teach them a lesson or something like this, but often times they tell these great tales that are hard to conceptually understand. The um the Upanads is is one book that it's in this way. There's other ones, too. And he was just saying that they're they're taught this way from very young. Westerners are not taught this way. We're very based on you know dear is like the you know the king I think therefore I am.

And so it's very much rationality 1 plus 1 is two. If it doesn't fit that line this is you know what they used to call mansplaining right? You know logical this and then this and then this and then this. But that is not the only way of thinking. Math is not the only subject in school. People don't get in their car and turn on math. They get in their car and they turn on music most of the time. Music, of course, there's formulas for music, but music is an art and art doesn't always follow structure. So I know this is kind of a bit of a tangent, but I think for people who are listening, you know, thinking about this kind of question, takes you outside of your normal way of thinking in a in a way that can help you to have new perspective on things that you might a have never thought about. And then if you can use that in your own life, this is a way to kind of like I don't want to say unlock productivity, but really change your perspective, you know, in a subtle way or maybe even in a greater way. Well, I think at the very least you can figure out what it is that you actually think.

Sure.

Right. I mean, I think that's something too to dig around with the attitude of going, okay, what do I actually think?

Mhm.

Do I think that there's some like, okay, if I go back to myself doing Zen back in the day, if you really don't think that there's something to be solved, you probably wouldn't do that thing.

So, you have to believe there's something that can be solved. Otherwise, why would you bother? It doesn't make any sense, right?

And you know, even if I had friends who were I have lots of like sciency friends and you would say, "Hey, you know, you want to do this thing and you know, they probably would to themselves be like, well, there's nothing to solve. Why would I bother doing that?"

Where if you really get into it, if this speaks to you or if you find that you have that quality within you, however you want to talk about this, you know, then you could be highly motivated to say, "No, I want to kind of try to crack this problem. Buddha did it. Maybe I could take a tumble at it, too, and I'll try to solve it as well. And maybe I'll use some of that guidance from people who have thought about this as well.

But, you know, it's discovering that

yes, I believe there is something to be solved within this. And I'm going to try to put my energies into doing that. You have to believe that on some level.

So, I guess I'm, you know, like maybe part of the thing is figuring out, okay, what do what do you actually think when you dig inside yourself? I think that's a good question. Since we're being philosophical, I did think of like the great philosopher Albert Kemu, you know, when you really get people kind of trying to like address this through this like the framework we were talking about before. Well, there really isn't any deeper meaning, you know, if you look at it as a historical thing. People are challenging the religions around them. Kimu, great existential philosopher, right? And he's like, yeah, you know, what do you do when you if you do come to the conclusion that, well, okay, we don't believe in Christianity anymore. We're going to let that go. We're dropping that right now. We're going to really fully embrace a view that's more uh rooted in the kind of things we were talking about kind of a scientific materialist rationalist world, right? But then we find out that there's no deeper meaning in it. What do we do? So Kenmu kind of called this like the absurd, right? And he has a really profound essay on it where he's like, you know, if you just feel like there's no under other underlying meaning, if that structure has fallen away, if that was given to you by the religion of your culture and you don't believe it anymore and that falls away, then what do you do? And you know, there's a very famous essay of his where he talks about like the myth of

Seephus, talking about myths,

you know,

where you push the rock up the hill and it rolls back down again and you push the rock up the hill and it rolls back down again. And he's like, "Well, that's absurd on some level, but you know, how do you if that's if you don't think there's any other deeper purpose, you're kind of like that." But he kind of tries to frame it in the more like, okay, so you have to find, you know, uh, you know, your meaning within the absurdity of that or something. He's really willing to embrace that. So, I mean, as far as like the extent that we're being philosophical, there's someone trying to address that question in that way. And he said, "Yeah, well, you have to like what was the old David Bowie line? turn and face the strange changes.

This would be like turn and face the absurd,

you know, and you could take that attitude, right? But it's it's interesting because it was people trying to, you know, again, we're being philosophical for the episode, right? It was people trying to address that question.

Right. We've lost the we've lost the meaning as a, you know, a culture that maybe a certain kind of religiosity gave us. It's gone. So now we're facing a world where okay, maybe this is what we believe about the world and then you know this is sort of his way of trying to talk about that. So all right, a little uh little education around that stuff for our little pod. Um what we also talked about last time and I like I wanted to add possible to go on the deeper tangent about this and I'll skip it for now but I like to double back maybe at the end of the episode if we have time. But, you know, there's also like the other what I would see is the other big side of American culture, which is sort of like your standard orthodox religiosity, And I we were talking about it last episode a little bit and it was sort of like a lot based on punishment. Why is there suffering? Because you pissed off the deity and it's going to punish you. That's true. That's that way of thinking. Um, and there's also that kind of the feeling of like the Lord works in mysterious ways,

right? So Argo, you know, I'm just going to have to accept the fact that they're suffering. And you know, this is called like the theodysy problem philosophically, right? If the creative force, the creative god is all powerful and all benevolent, why is it such a [...] show? That's the problem. And you know, as we talked about last time, even like one of my favorite scholars on this became an atheist around this point, Bart Airman, and he talks about that pretty honestly. He was a very religious fundamentalist person. And eventually he moved away from that in stages. But what really turned him into an atheist was he couldn't get around this problem. It broke him on some level,

you know.

But I was having a conversation about this with, you know, someone I know who was like a Soviet Union kid. And um so she said, "Well, wait a minute. Isn't it supposed to you're supposed to go to heaven and then the suffering is supposed to end there? Religion is the opiate of the masses, I think, was how she was brought up." And I was like, "Oh, yeah. I didn't even think about that. But that is like another option on the table, right?

That you know, your life might be suffering now, but if you have the right belief system and believe in the right deity, then you'll go to a place where you won't suffer anymore or something like that.

And it was weird for me because I didn't actually when I was like brainstorming this out, I just didn't really even think of that thing. But I think that's probably what a lot of people who are kind of like orthodoxy religious kind of have as their belief, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So, that's another alternative, I guess, on the table. Yeah, it's suffering now, but I'll die and I have the right belief system and I'll go to a good place or something.

Yeah, there's even some churches that will sell you plots of land in heaven. You could buy them here, though. It's great.

Is that the case?

Yeah, you can buy plots of uh plots of real estate.

Is that like a Joel Olstein kind of thing?

Uh I don't know exactly who did it, but I remember uh I remember that I was like, whoa,

interesting.

That's a hustle. Yeah, get your hustle on for sure. Yeah. Um, yeah, there's a lot of places to go with that potentially. It's hard to look at like uh like St. Peter at the gate waiting for you to come up with your deed.

Salvation. Salvation brought to you by at Properties.

Here, I I bought this thing.

Yeah, dude.

You're staring at you like what?

I hate this guy. He's my neighbor. I thought this was heaven. Yeah. But the point that's when it turns to flames and he's like, "Who said it was heaven?"

Yeah. Surprise.

Oh, you missed the elevator. What? The elevator came back down. Sorry.

So, I was like thinking about like the apocalyptic view that we were also talking about, too. And like I went down a bit of a rabbit hole around this because I was like, "Yeah, that probably is what I thought when I was like Catholic when I was a kid. I probably had some idea like that in my head, right? I'm supposed to go to a heaven." But we've been talking a lot of like, you know, part of the problem that's going on is we have these very apocalyptic kind of toxic Christianities that are in so much power now, right?

And even like if you look at like the war going on now that we're it's obviously both painful for both of us, you know, is such a tragedy. um you know there's lots of reasons for something like that but at least in part it's driven by people's desires right I mean that's part of the picture right

the people ideologically driven towards it so I was kind of like well how does that sort of fit

right into this like whole picture and so I don't want to go through the whole thing of it but it is kind of interesting the idea is that people will um oops this thing did something kind of weird on me um people will go through and you know there'll be a rapture and I was wondering about what happened to all those folks up in heaven. Where are they supposed to go? So there's an answer. They're supposed to come back down again. And uh it's a whole long thing. And I think at some point we should talk about but maybe not now because we're supposed to talk about gnostics for a little bit. But you know with the rapture there's supposed to be a uh a kind of a reconnection to all the bodies of people. They're all supposed to rise back up again. It's a whole big whoop-dedoo.

That sure sounds like zombies to me. And from all the movies I've seen on zombies, it ain't good.

Yeah, that's supposed. But that's the like, you know, honestly, that's kind of what this is about. So maybe save for another time, but I got curious about it. So I did do a little research on it. And it's interesting to realize like again, people who are in really dominant pictures of power, this is what they're trying to trigger. this sort of more endgame end times rapture type thing going on, right? And then, you know, there's going to be u this rising of the spirits and then the people from heaven are going to come down and they're going to have a a kind of a party up in heaven and everyone's going to get resold again. It's a whole thing. So, anyways, to be continued.

Well, it'll be exciting when Prince and Michael come back. They can do some concerts and stuff.

That would be part of the heavenly thousand-year reign afterwards. We're all gonna

get in our boogie on.

Great.

Um, and the part that hit me about this, and I would like to talk about some other time. I don't want to get too like tangent about it, but what really hit me was again holding up my little Buddhist book, the thing of like really understanding how people think, you

and uh I think one of the things that's happened, you know, in our culture is like say you're trying to understand the evangelical mindset and you've never been around those kinds of people before. They're they're thinking is so different than yours. Almost like you were talking about with Ryan. They think so differently

and you if you don't really understand them, you don't understand their mindset, you don't understand their language, you don't understand their beliefs, there's this huge cut off and everything, you know, I think it's part of what's [...] things up on some level from my vantage point. There isn't enough of this like really understanding of what this is about. Um had kind of interesting conversation with again like one of my I would say more scientifically materialist kind of friends and I was like you really can understand these people. I can sort of understand them. I was raised Catholic. I'm around a lot of evangelical people within my family. I get how they think. This is impossible for you to get how they think. It's so different for you. But anyways, I don't know. Do you think that that's true, Daniel? I think it's true. Human beings think a lot. Yeah. In general, they think a lot. We think a lot. I think a lot for various reasons. Um, you can't drink your own Kool-Aid sometimes. I think it's important to challenge all the things that you believe to be true. You really have to dig into them. I think that faith gets weaponized and it really uh invades people's thoughts and makes them question the the internal voice that is not like infinitely accepting of every single thing that they hear. and it sort of like smooths everything over. I don't there there's negative to it and so there's a lot of influence I think conditioning is what they call it, right? That happens. But people think all the time whether they're using that attention to investigate how they think about things and how they feel about them. I don't know that that gets done a lot. I think it does get done. I think people do they, you know, I'm I'm thinking about people who are firm believers in X, Y, or Z. People who are firmly liberal or firmly conservative, if they even exist anymore, or firmly right-wing or firmly racist or firmly whatever, you know, they they've gotten to those those places over longer periods and experiences. And I feel like their thinking is circular once you've sort of gotten to a place where your identity of what you think and believe and feel are now sort of unified that there is not a whole lot of uh discrepancies between the various beings that that reside within us. And so I I feel like asking yourself what you actually think is an important process in order to shake loose some of the things that are still alive and questioning the some of the things that have yet to be uh beaten down or smoothed over by the conditioning of society. We meaning western people assume that this is the way that it is all over the world. It's not. News flash it is not. And so the the influx of outside opinion is not a sign of weakness as some might think. You know, in my opinion, it's a sign of strength because it allows you to take someone else's view of what it is that you believe and then you get to pause your beliefs and hear their critiques and then be able to determine whether or not this still holds true after you hear that. This is critical thinking. This is what is lacking. This I believe this is what is lacking.

Yeah. I guess like I I hear what you're saying. I suppose in part for me it's something like like let's say a war starts like what we're talking about or all the stuff that's happening on the bigger picture level of things. because I'm advocating for this like hold my book up Buddhist point of view where you try to understand like okay where are these people actually coming from

you know so I can actually understand you know why they're motivated to do things that they do you know part of my motivation is I'm trying to trigger an endgame time apocalyptic rapture stuff I have to like take that seriously that this person actually believes this

yes of course

you know

and like I really have to try to understand and if I haven't like made the effort to really try to figure out where where are these people coming from, then I'm going to be perpetually shocked.

When they act out what they actually believe.

You might be shocked anyways, even if you know what they're thinking.

I I might I might be like confused, but I won't be shocked.

I'm not a huge like Professor Jean guy. I'm not big into him. I think maybe you spend a little bit more time with him than I have. You know, he's kind of like this guy out there who does a lot of like historical analysis and socioultural analysis.

Yeah. a lot of game uh you know game theory is his basis for his Yeah.

And other things too you know like cuz I was listening to him and like at least he's taking this seriously. He's like listen these people are ideologically driven.

You have to understand you get people who are ideologically driven they don't have the same on and off switches that you have and if you don't understand that you can't understand them.

Correct.

Yeah. So okay. Okay. So anyways, we got some kind of feeling about this and my my feeling of American culture is divided up between people who have this religiosity and people who are a little bit more scientifically materialist. And then into that we can plop some gnostics,

you know, a little bit towards the end of our podcast. We're supposed to talk about narcissism too, you know, after we set the stage.

And the gnostics sort of have their own theory of why things are going to be suffering. And part of the reason why this is happening in the Gnostic worldview is because you got this corrupt force, this corrupt demi-urge deity that's dominating the planet. it confusedly thinks that it's the highest power and um and so uh you know it's the definitive force of the universe and uh it has all these archonic figures these kind of underlings that are like emanating out into the world and they're like this oppressive force. So if you get to like what the problem of suffering is, what are you supposed to realize in a lot of like gnostic thought? You're supposed to realize this feature of things, you know, that there are these corrupt oppressive forces that are weighing everything down, especially psychosspiritually, keeping things entrapped and you have to be able to escape out of that, right? So they put like a different a different place where they're putting where this suffering problem comes from, right? And it's like again kind of a uh you know a different kind of way of like thinking about you know why is there suffering? Why is there suffering? Because there's these oppressive forces that are working in the world around you that are trying to crush things and that's why they're What do you think Daniel?

Yikes. What to do? What what is their practice in order or you know what I mean? This is an observation of a what they would say is a natural phenomenon. But how do you h how how is there what do they do to address this?

Well, I think first the idea is that you have to have a realization that that's the case.

Okay?

You know, until you realize then you're going to be stuck. So then you have to realize like this is actually what's happening, right? You have to have the insight. And then in doing that, you have to like flip your worldview around. For most people, you're stuck in worldviews that are like that are tied directly back to these obstructive oppressive spir spiritual forces. They're directly tied back, right? Either because they're presenting themselves as religious things and spiritual things that are false or they're trying to make you I guess if you get to the other side, they would probably trying to say that they're going to make you feel deluded by thinking that there is no deeper game of foot. It's just all random blah blah blah and then you're stuck. Right. Either way, they got you,

right?

Yeah. What's the old line from uh usual suspects? The devil's greatest trick is making people think he didn't exist or something like that,

So then you're in that kind of thing. So the first thing I think is supposed to be the realization that this is the situation that you're finding yourself in and you're going to have to rewrite your whole way of thinking about like what's going on in the world around you. Obviously this is a very like Keano Reeves moment, right?

You have to figure out like this problem first, right? To recognize the situation that you're actually finding yourself in,

right? And then the next piece is to realize I guess if you go through it and this does have correlations back with sort of some of the stuff that's maybe our home bases like uh you know Buddha nature ideas you have to realize that you have a divine spark within you and part of what's trying to be done here is to like stop you from seeing your own divine spark. the forces of the world around you are trying to discombobulate you

in a way that um that blinds you to like what your situation actually is

and then what your own nature is as a being. You know that you're a divine spark trapped in a material shell. Now there's a lot of like Buddhist dowist stuff that gets to the same space. So I think in that sense to my mind at least I see an overlap between these ways of thinking but I mean do you see it that way too?

Well I just you know just we'll just continue on that thread because I don't like I don't want to lose that that piece. Um so so their their view then is that these archons and these negative factors these forces are wanting to suppress the divine spark within the people so that they are subjugated and can be I don't know harvested for their energy or better subject or something like this.

Yeah. It's kind of a little parasitic thing too, right?

And so then what is their what is their so recognition? Yeah. Uhhuh.

Yeah. rec recognize that first that that this is happening obviously connecting with the divine connecting with your own spark as the kind of next phase of that and then you know what what what else is there

well I mean then you have to connect to the true source of everything too so in their way of thinking there's uh a false kind of artificial deity right

or deities you know artificial worldviews that are designed to keep people entrapped.

You have to recognize that that's the case, that you're really under a kind of an attack until you can see that. Point

Point two, you have to recognize that you have a divine spark within you that has to be realized. And then you have to realize that you have to connect to the true force of where the divine power is, which is outside the context of the normal channels that you think it runs through. That there's a transcendent source, a pure and transcendent source that you have to connect back to. So that's the project.

Okay.

Well, I mean you can say that about anything, Daniel. What is Buddhism about? Ba ba ba and then what?

Right. Well, but I mean that I mean

it's the same thing. It's the same. It is the Buddhist story. It's the same one. You have to realize that you're under this thing. You have to realize that you have a divine spark, a Buddha nature, and you have to reconnect with that and connect it back. It's the same thing.

And then,

right. Well, but

I don't understand the question. The question is from the audience who's the question is from the is for the audience who will be listening who will want to know that.

Well, I think that's that's the project,

But yeah, no, I I understand. Well, people are watching this. They're going to want to

Well, yeah. But the whole point is like it has this feeling of like, okay, and then what? And then what? But, you know, they obviously are putting forth a program

of spiritual freedom.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But for people who've never heard of narcissism before, if this is their first go through, then that's going to be that's going to be revvely.

Yeah. I think it is revvelatory on some level.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what do you think about it as a project?

No, I mean it's it's it's reminiscent to many other uh schools of thought. I think the the one the one part that narcissism has that I

I don't know how many other I mean Buddhism talks about it a little bit but it's not as oppressive you know the gnostics are very much um very clear about highlighting that oppressive force the the sort of false god the you know they can call it the old testament god or the the vengeful god or the you know that one that has this kind of like uh like you said like a parasitic kind of relationship with the with its subjects. This part is is kind of different because they do emphasize that as like one of the key components of their their beliefs and that really separates them from other practices because they're sort of embracing I don't want to say negativity but they're embracing this oppression right out of the gate. They're like yeah no this thing is not this is not a real thing. I think if you you know think about the Old Testament there is this um we've talked about this before this kind of anthropomorphism of uh divine of divinity and that it's vengeful it's angry it's can be provide great things for its people but then also is like no I'm going to punish you all now here's here's this next thing here's this whole like you know years and years of suffering um but they end up the people end up going back to because it is this their sole creator and the Gnostics go no that's not the sole creator it wouldn't do that we don't believe that it does that we believe this other thing that and I think that the acceptance of that deity at least you know what they believe like the the false deity is one of corrupt nature um is just it's a it takes the problem of suffering and it moves it directly in the sense center and says here is a reason that that they believe is the is the cause for suffering or is at least a causitive factor of suffering whereas I'm not so sure that you know outside of the word sin and the the the nature of humanity's desire to sin and Adam and Eve and whatever you know they're just like it's like oh well this programming is bad human programming Bad, not good. Eve ate apple. Bad woman. Now man, bad too. Kicked out of Garden of Eden. You live in the streets. You know, you're forever doomed. That's it. Maybe one day, uh, things can work out for you. Follow these rules. Oh, you didn't want to follow these rules? Okay, I'm going to send down a child who's going to, you know, martyr himself for everybody. Oh, now you're all safe. Just believe in him. But you're still full of sin and still bad. So, just do this one thing and now you're good. That is not that still doesn't address the suffering that still doesn't address you know like you said earlier the the randomness of the universe and it that because it highlights the the people who have a materialistic scientific materialism view of the universe that things come and go and who knows I don't know I'm not worried about it you know but this addresses the problem of that and they have for a really long time and they were considered you know heretics and killed killed and you know persecuted for you know500 to 1,800 years or whatever it has been. Um but it it it takes the problem of not understanding of not knowing which is why it's called narcissism because it's knowing. It takes this problem of not knowing why things are the way they are. And we can be maybe more specific, why they are [...] up as the way that they are and says, "Well, here's a reason why." And it's not just that your programming is bad because human bad because human sin because human not divine. And it says that's actually partly true, but there's a reason for it. And that reason is different than what other people believe. So I, you know, I I like that part. I don't know if I necessarily believe in it in that way, but I do think that it, you know, it gets you to question what you think, which is kind of the theme of the episode, which is supposed to be suffering, but it's this.

Well, I mean, I guess part of the answer is like question what you think to see whether how it connects back to the fundamental problem.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That ends up being like how it's sort of like woven itself together, right? Mhm.

I like this is the part of the episode I guess where we get kind of personal on these things too, right? Where this does something for me kind of interesting,

I'm not sure where I draw the line either in terms of like, you know, uh do I think that there's a demi urge in a very literal sense or do I look at that in kind of like a poetical way like we talked about a little bit before, you know, but I can see the problem, right? And then when you look at it from the point of view of someone who's trying to do, you know, a a kind of a Buddhist or tantric Buddhist project, which is like you ultimately want to see all beings be liberated, right? You want to see everyone kind of like escape that implies that you're getting to something that you're supposed to escape from in some way, right? I suppose in a more like standard Buddhist tantra view, the idea is that spirit has gotten trapped sort of in matter, right? Alchemical Dowist views too, these kinds of things. You're trying to figure out how you get to this more transcendent thing, you know, so that spirit is no longer trapped in matter. The Gnostic thing has a similar vibe to it where you're supposed to realize, yeah, I have some kind of divine spark in me that's trapped somehow and I have to learn how to liberate it or free it, right? You know, in the Buddhist world, we use the word like mocha for that, right? I need to find a freedom.

Yeah. Freedom. Yeah.

They've added like a piece to it, which is like, yeah, it's not just that the problem is that this spark is like trapped in matter in some way, but there's forces that are trying to keep it that way,

right? And I suppose as I think about it for myself and I look at the, you know, like the world around me, I think, yeah, there's something true about that. Whether it's like literally true or poetically true, right? It does have this feeling that there are a lot of like oppressive forces that are trying to keep people psychosspiritually subdued. That does make sense to me and that does resonate with me. I know it might not speak to everybody, but I think there's a truth in that on some level, right? Mhm.

And uh then it's a question of can you free yourself and help you know others free themselves from these oppressive forces that I do buy.

So do you buy that there's like oppressive forces that are holding people down? What do you think about that Daniel? Are you not in that or you feel

at this point

with all the Epstein [...] that

is out and continues to come out?

Can anybody really like hate or say anything to anybody else who believes in what might be considered a conspiracy at this point? Like for me, I mean, [...] anything's possible. You know what I'm saying? Like in the middle of COVID, the government was like, "Oh yeah, by the way, aliens are real." And everyone's like, "Okay, cool." Yeah, that's cool. All right. We got videos. We got testimonials. Yeah.

And then people were like,

"Yeah, that's true, Daniel. That actually happened."

Yeah. Nobody gave a [...] They're like, "Oh, all right. Awesome." All the, you know, millions of people who were like, "I [...] told you. I told you." And everyone's like,

"Yeah, okay. Yeah, you were right." Uh-huh.

Anyways, what's for dinner? Like, it didn't You know what I'm saying? So, like I think on on some level for people who are looking, you know, are hearing this for the first time and they're like, "What do you mean there's this like large oppressive force that's spanning the globe trying to keep us down?" Oh, okay. I can see it.

I mean, that's kind of like the archon idea, too, right? That there are these sort of like uh there's a corrupt power structure full of these archons. It's hard to argue.

It is hard to argue.

Yeah. Yeah, I was having a kind of a weird conversation with, you know, again, one of my friends. He's much more like a scientific-minded dude, but he like we've talked about these gnostic things in different ways over the years, so he knows something about, you know, the u at least the belief structure. And he's like, "Yeah, you know, there's something to that." And he said a weird thing. He said he has nightmares sometimes about like archons now.

And he's like, "Yeah, they probably do exist and they're probably trying to mind [...] me." And I was like, "Yeah, probably." So

Eric, just did we give a little context? So you have the they, you know, the false god they considered, they call it the demi urge, and we've done this before in the episodes on on our podcast, but we'll do it now. And then below that, you know, kind of like secondary god, the the false one, the the bitter one. Then then it has archons which are

you know we can call them like negative angels

that sort of that rule over is it like parts of the earth or is it parts of the universe or they have like region I I don't know exactly how they

I think how do they get different things with that but they're supposed to kind of spread themselves out like a matrix you know and they're kind of spread out in different ways probably having their little fftoms or something but I think if you draw the parallel down to like

if we try to make it really real like what you're doing then this would be like a way of talking about the Epstein class right

okay

and they're the archons you know what's weird about it and this is a terrible thing you know as we get to the end of an episode where we're kicking all this stuff around but what really hit me I was listening to some lectures on Gnostic stuff prepping for this there's a guy who's a scholar on this named David Bracka and so he has like a great course thing on it you know where they do lectures on things and uh yeah you can just listen to the lectures And I was listening through it and it's like weird because they talk about you were bringing up myths earlier, right?

And their mythic structure. And so, you know, in the myths there's like all of this sexual violence that's kind of bizarre.

And I I was thinking, wow, that's very Epstein class, too, in the sense that like they talk about these arch type figures. Again, we're talking archetypal now, right? Let's be Yian. There's an there's an archon archetype out there and there are certain people that will be possessed by that archetype and act that out, you know, like a Jeffrey Epstein, right? Power-hungry, wanting to dominate others. And then there's a sexuality aspect which is like horribly toxic. And there's always this rword stuff going on. So, it's almost like

this weird thing where they talk about them being drawn to female beauty, human female beauty, and then wanting to like kind of crush it on some level, but then at the same time try to like steal the spark of the beauty out. And I was like, "Wow, that's super Epstein class 2, right? this obsession, you know, with female beauty and this obsession with, you know, the, you know, the power of female beauty, but also this desire to like crush and control it and also like steal it somehow, right? Steal the spark. And I was like, it's like, damn, that's really like that that is an if we put on our young hats as an archetype, man, that's really on point, right? Once you got what you were talking about, all of a sudden, you see all this Epstein class stuff. It's about power. It's about sexual dominance and like sexual violence and control and like stealing the spark. I was like, "Yeah, it's hard, you know, not to see that piece too." And I was, you know, as I was saying, I was prepping for the episode. I was like bouncing this off a friend and he was like, "Yeah, you know, there's something about that if you make it archetypal." Again, you know, like what we were talking about. I don't know if you have to metaphysically believe every little piece of it, but as a framework, you know, and maybe that's what Carl Jung as a thinker saw in this too, as a framework, it's, you know, I don't know what Jung would say now if he had to see all of this explosion of this archetypal Epstein violent archon type stuff, but I'm sure you would call it out that way. Does that make sense to you?

Yeah. I'm just thinking like if you know slightly not a tangent but yeah it it's uh it's something where you can't deny the uniform uh evil that runs throughout anytime you mention that person's name and what was done. And it's not normal evil.

It's not like, okay, I robbed a bank. I punched somebody in their in their nose. I uh

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Did vandalism. This is not that kind of criminality.

No one stole someone's cryptocurrency or, you know, scammed some old lady out of her car or some [...] It's not that.

It's not even like Godfather movie type evil either. It's not even that. It's something else. You're right. That's a good call.

And so when you think about, you know, so that, you know, that's I brought it up for this reason because then, you know, if you're listening to this and you're like, "Archons, what what do you mean negative angels? That's strange. It doesn't that doesn't make any sense." But then, you know, you look at something like this, which is not a small thing. And I'm not cherry-picking this example. This is a very large example, right? that has been that was literally going on for I don't know 25 30 years you know all all over the globe that it touched all kinds of people from all different walks of life and not even necessarily only rich people but you know the intelligencia or intellencia if we want to be you know highulutin about it touched many different kinds of people

praying on poor people right are like poor girls

and I was like man this is like the opposite of Jesus's teachings. Like for sure, for sure. And so then you think about it and you're like, how could people be like this? What's going on? Is there is it that much of a sickness? Because I mean, dude, Nam Chosky went to the island.

Did he go to the island or he did did he just meet with him? I don't know details of that.

I don't know if he went but he definitely met with him. He they were they were trading emails. They were connected after

they were certainly cordial, right? Yeah. And they were in conversations.

Yeah. So, it's just something where you're like, "Okay, well, why what's attracting people to this thing?" What, you know, again, if you're if you're looking if your mind goes, "Well, this is just random [...] Humans are [...] up. You know, the programming is off. That's how it goes." I that that doesn't satisfy my that doesn't satisfy my curiosity. And I don't think it satisfies anybody's curiosity really given the traction that that that this has and has had now for many many years. So if people are willing to question the validity of how it is that this is all connected then I think it's it's only like a one step away from questioning if things are connected in a universe as well. And and from the perspective of the Gnostics, just wrapping it back into our conversation, this is absolutely influence of the archons on reality, you know.

Yeah. I know. I think like even like when we were talking earlier, it makes me a little huffy. Even when we were talking, I got a little I got a little huffy.

But I think the reason it makes me so huffy is just like, you know, I've been doing this this spiritual stuff for decades now in my life. You care a lot about people freeing themselves from these structures. I mean, we both care about that

and it like strikes it makes me so impassioned, right? You know, I've only had a couple episodes where I feel huffy, but this is one of the ones where I was like and I think part of like why does it make me feel so strongly? It's just because, you know, you spend your life trying to say people, hey, we got to like snap out of this, y'all.

And part of that maybe is a gnostic statement. We have to stop following you know these toxic structures that have again if we want to be archetypal yian have this archonlike structure to them. We have to get out of this you know as a collective and then on an individual level there's something like we we have to snap out of this as people

and maybe take a different perspective on this like maybe the things around me and we do this a lot on the pod obviously but the things around me that I think are just innocuous and benevolent really aren't. Do I got to like snap myself out of these things

and begin to think, okay, maybe what's really happening, and again, not in a way to be paranoid about it, but to be realistic about it. Maybe what's happening is like the forces around me don't have my best interest at heart. Is that that radical of a statement? No, I don't think so. And I guess that's asnostic as you get on some level. Just the recognition like, wait a minute, these forces around me don't have my best interest at heart. And maybe what they're trying to do is they're trying to keep me from realizing my own spiritual power and my own spiritual truth. Maybe that's what they're up to.

Not that far-fetched of a thing to say, you know, whether you buy, you know, all the metaphysics totally. I don't know if I buy it all either. But, you know, as a structure, you're like, huh, there's something to that. And maybe it gets personal. Like I think about people I love and I know we get to the very end of this episode.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, where I'm like, hey, snap out of this, please. you know, and maybe start reframing this because it's people you really love and you really care about. I think it's why I get so emotional about it. You know,

they call that an intervention, Eric.

Well, I would be the intervention of one, me,

against no one else who wants to intervene.

But you know how it is. And we all have people where you think about the people that you love and you really want to see them like grow and thrive and

and do this and you're like, "Snap out of this, please." You know?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I think that's the reason I get so [...] emotional about it. It really hits kind of deep, you know, and part of it is this Gnostic stuff is in part correct.

You know, to recognize this, this is in part correct. And again, you bring up things like the Epstein thing, these big collective things where you're like, "Oh, that's creepily accurate."

Well, the other parties wide shut part and then some of it's personal. Oh, I love this person or that person in my life. We've known each other for years. I want to see them go forward. and that seems like they're stuck. And a lot of what they're stuck in is if you're being gnostic about it, the forces that are at play that really don't have your best interest at heart and probably want to hold you stuck. Yeah. Anyway,

on the on the the Gnostic piece, just before we wrap it up, you know, narcissism was in response to Christianity and Judaism

or it's like one of the earliest Christianities, too, depending. Right.

Right. Yeah.

Right. But it's it's in response to that. So it is looking at th it is it is playing off of those belief systems. Now today we have many other belief systems that we can pick from and learn from and weave together and see the the correlations and the differences and all this other kind of stuff. But at the time when it came out, it was you know antithetical really to the beliefs of the people who were in uh its vicinity at you know in its nation states and it was

it's going to be in conflict with more orthodox religious system or they're going to be in conflict with one another. Yeah,

that's what I'm that's exactly what I'm saying. That's where it's born out of that. So it resembles stuff that we're familiar with now, but for many people this was, you know, heresy and they lost many people lost their lives and were tortured, you know, because they believed something that was not the orthodox view, which today we, you know, are not killed for this. Uh, and that's great. But for a long time,

you know, people who were exploring their own internal workings, it's uh they were they were persecuted, they were killed. And I think you know correlations to today and we don't really talk about this very much so we're at the end here but you know people who are exploring their sexuality or people who are exploring their identity you know there's always been scapegoats for every society because they represent the the kind of evolution in exploration whether or not they end up being that way for the rest of their life or whatever but it helps humanity evolve. in order to push the envelope. So, it wasn't that long ago that people that the society was disgusted seeing an interracial relationship. Society was disgusted.

And most people now it's not a big deal. I mean, you have a right leaning um African-American Supreme Court justice married been married to for a long time to a white woman. Mhm.

But when they got together, that still was a little taboo, you know, only in America, as they say.

Yeah. I guess like I guess to be continued. Yeah. There's this thing where there's like a tension even within the culture of like can we get to more progressive free ideas or are we going to be held down by things that are more reactionary?

Yeah,

that's true. And it affects like overall or can it affect us on an individual level too?

Right. Yeah. And yeah, it makes me emotional.

Oh yeah, that's okay.

Gets all my feels going.

Passion is good.

I think I think it's the kind of the idea that what makes you want to be uh like a let's say for example a tantric Buddhist. Why you want to do it? You want to not only see yourself free, you want to see all living things be able to transcend these things.

That's the motivation.

Yeah. I mean, of course, it's other people's choice whether they agree with you or not. You can't impose things on people in ways you know better than an archon. But the passion is there. The passion in the fire, as you would say. As the coach would say, you need the passion and the fire.

That's right.

All right, brother. Well, thank you for Thanks so much, Daniel, for sharing your passion. Audience, thanks for tuning in. Uh like, comment, subscribe, hit us up uh jinantragmail.com or on the podcast on the uh Instagram at the Jin and Tantra podcast. Uh you know, we love the comments and feedback and and all that kind of stuff. Even if even if you're talking [...] we we like that, too. Uh, so thanks for tuning in for Eric. This is Daniel. We'll catch you guys on the next one. Byebye.