[Music] hey philan here's those who us like our spirituality with a Twist so we're uh back this is like a true um two-part episode because we're talking about attachment Theory the psychological theory right yeah um and we're looking that in the context of our bigger picture theme which is karma mudra the use of sexuality passion love um eroticism romantic stuff in the spiritual path so we're yeah we're working on that that's our theme of 2025 for shes yeah and uh you know try to go for the positive go for the positive and so you know we want to talk about attachment with that and we want to do a little bit of an Eastern side which we did we want to do a little western side psychological side that's one of the things we try to do I think a little unique in our podcast right Daniel to do some of the psychological stuff definitely yeah people that that you can also use for your spiritual edification right as opposed to just the traditional stuff so we had gotten to this attachment Theory we're doing kind of like a little primer you might say a little crash course on attachment Theory and we had kind of gone through part of it last week so uh when we were recording and so this next episode whenever you're watching it will be like part two of this however you set it up Daniel right yeah yeah so what had happened was we had talked about especially two of the unhealthy unhealthy sort of attachment Styles and uh had got to the point where we were talking about how the the original study was with the kids and how they sort of acted and then also kind of the parental situations that might kind of lead kids to have those kinds of attachment Styles right correct you know how they bonded to their parents and how they emotionally attach and how they affected how they were trying to get those attachment needs you know uh met you know kids learn this kind of young so we gotten through two of the major ones some of the kids will go through and they just can't get their needs met and they kind of give up and the idea is that they become kind of avoidant they would draw inside they're super nervous inside but um uh on the other hand they're they look quiet on the outside but they're super nervous on the inside is the idea right and you know it really has to do with like situations where the kid just has already kind of surrendered I'm not g get my needs met I give up right and then we talked about another group of kids um again in the original studies and then that kind of their parental thing was they sort of learn like my parents are erratic maybe if I make a big noise I'll get my needs met so they get very panicky and kind of jittery uh more attention seeking Behavior right and this is called kind of an anxious type and you know they're always kind of like acting out and crying out and they're trying to get their needs met through this kind of behavior we're going to follow this through to adulthood in a little bit but we got to the other third one which is um problematical and that's this thing called disorganized and this one I think you know I said last time we were talking about this I would try to get a little personal with this because I think I grew up in a house that definitely had this vibe to it and so disorganized kind is not one that they even really explored in the original sort of Psych research part but it came up later on was added in um because you got kids who were very all over the place they sometimes would seem to act like one group and with draw and go inside other times they might like try to act out and seemed like they were more needy to try to draw that parental attention to them but they were very kind of consistent erratic or chaotic hence disorganized and the way that the attachment Theory talks about them is that they never even kind of settled it on some consistent strategy like everything is so chaotic and they weren't able even to try to come up with some yeah some consistent way of Behaving to try to get these needs met it just never developed in that probably because there was a lot of Chaos in the environment so I can say for me I grew up in kind of this scary household right I grew up with like four adults in the household we've talked about this in previous episodes yeah and of that like I had physical violence from three of them I know people have had worse households than me I know when I was talking with my psych Mentor Dr Michael Schnur at some point he said to me like well you know you were abused and I was like you know I wasn't sure and I think that happens to a lot of people you're not quite sure especially if you know people who maybe have had worse experiences but you know I was physically assaulted by you know three of the adults and you know you're a kid and you get attacked it's obviously ly it's a thing and I think it was very erratic too I in the way that I think would lead to something disorganized with this so when I was like I'm basing we're basing this a little bit on this book by Jessica Fern She Wrote This Book on attachment Theory it's kind of set in the context of like more like a polyamory thing because we like to talk about different relationship Styles it's part of what we do yeah and we just head on um fedra Chantel and we talked about you know non monogamy and attachment and and everything else so it's uh yeah we're we're we're in this in this Zone here yeah we tried to like uh speak to the needs of all people yeah yeah yeah yeah right and uh yeah all right so um and so and looking at that when I first was I listened to it as an Audi book I didn't read it as a book but I was listening I was like interesting you know I come from this household for sure so it gave me the chance to reflect and say hey how much of this disorganized stuff maybe that I have in the past right how much of this has sort of been cured for me you know through psychological and spiritual growth right so I guess that's one of my goals with this Daniel I know how uh I'm sure you feel the same but i' like to hear it in your own words but for me I thought well in doing this it it gives people the chance to hear this set of ideas you know hear this whole Theory and then maybe learn something about themselves by thinking okay did I come from an environment that was like that at all maybe I haven't thought about it as much oh these are the kind of patterns that develop in kids and we'll trace it into adulthood gives us a chance to all learn from this hopefully right yeah yeah yeah because there is so much of our behavior that is patterned off of previous experience yeah and as much as we like to think ourselves unique which of course we're all unique there are also you know archetypes or Trends if you will of you know pattern behavior that and because people go through similar experiences because we're again we're all human we're not our genes are what 99.6% the same and despite how different people might think themselves to be we are all a product of the generation that came before us you know what I'm saying and I was having a conversation with uh friend of the show Aaron Greenberg who was one of our first guests way back in the day that's a blast from the past BL in the past I saw him today so we were chatting and it was just one of these you know brief conversations where when you know if you have children and then you allow your parents to watch your children you get to see how your parents parented you yeah and so people are a product of the previous generation and so pretty much around the world you know postor War I was a kind of a worldwide depression almost and so that kind of mindset was then you know input into the baby boom into the Baby Boomers and then how they treated their children I.E you know Gen X and older Millennials or whatever has an direct effect on how we are then how we would in influence our children so the the one of the mult multiple points that we always trying to you know impress upon people is that you know a the book it didn't start with you which is true and I like to mention the shamanic aspect of like it's genetic you know what I'm saying things get pass forward okay stop and then now what now the onus is on the individual which you know like probably and and this is just probably how it was you know the baby boomer generation doesn't do a lot of reflection those folks are kind of rare in their self-work you know the people who stood out and and became teachers you know was not it was not common therapy was not common the you know kind of spirituality or it's not popular now but at least it's more popular than it was then meditation it's it's a business you know what I'm saying yoga is a huge business right psychedelics is pretty popular in the Lexicon of you know uh standard discussion that people are aware of you know I mean how weed is legal in many states you know what I'm saying they use psychedelics for research so I'm just saying we're we're opening up these conversations for people to do what it is I believe our responsibility to do which is learn yourself and so by having this conversation which is yes based around attachment but then if you look at where are the first place that we had attachments it's with our parents and so as we grow in our life and we have more attachments to friends other family members loved ones co-workers so on and so forth these are different manifestations obviously of attachment but there's but the dynamic still plays out and the way in which what you know how we're highlighting it is has been you know brought about by research of many many people and so people can get insight into themselves and the way that they interact with with the world and then IE really themselves uh it's Illuminating and people I believe can be empowered to make change if they decide too yeah you know it's interesting for me because like my parents were even like preab Boomers they weren't even Baby Boomers yet they were like these silent generation people you know men were men and you know they sheep were scared everything up and what was that I said sheep were scared they probably were uh uh as long as as well as many kids yes yeah um you know baby borners maybe they had their kind of hippie Vibe you know some of the Beatles and all that kind of stuff but yeah um all right so on this thing if you relate to this at all I'll share you know what our author Jessica Fern is saying about this you know sharing some of her stuff sharing some stuff around this and to the extent that I can talk about this from my own experience I'll do it what the hey it's gin and Tantra so we do that kind of thing so the big thing about this in this disorganized thing the way this works out is that it's supposed to be the kid is faced with kind of a paradox where in a normal attachment thing uh you when you feel threatened uh afraid stressed you turn to a parental figure to be a source of comfort but the problem if you come from a household where the parents are unpredictable and abusive potentially in this way is that the main person that you want to turn to is also the person that's causing you the main problem right so it's almost like the wires are like fritzing out you know uh in these young organisms you know us as young young little beings you know you have some wiring there and the wiring doesn't know what to do correct right the extent that things are kind of like programmatic they get screwed up right like the way the Ducks imprint on the the guy we were talking about last week you know like wild wild robot yeah the whole idea of that um is just you know there's a certain programmatic aspect of this is the way this is going to be talked about and now the program's all confused and so and she does a good job of describing this as sort of one foot on the gas and one foot on the break where like you want to go to this person but you have to flee from this person at the same time but you want to go but you got to flee you don't know whether to put the car in forward or reverse maybe right be another way to put this where am I supposed to go which way should I go and uh it really creates a lot of internal kind of chaos especially like if you go flight fight flight freeze Fawn and all that kind of stuff right what do you do yeah right so the whole thing is kind of screwed up and the idea then you know what I was kind of sharing in my own house and it was like it's so strange because I think when you talk with people who come from crazy households emphasis on the word crazy it's like people like people do very weird [...] they're unpredictable you don't know what's going to set them off what they're going to do you know and uh you and I both work with patients right and when you actually have conversations with this you know they we talked about a little bit before they try to show abuse like sometimes in films and things you know but it always looks a little too stereotypical you know MH and the way it actually plays out is just weird like you know we hear stories from patients different kinds of abuse and when yeah you actually hear you're like that's just weird it's just so strange that people would act these ways it's even like stereotypical on some level that that resonates with people who might be listening you know because we all have our own backstories you have to come from a house that was difficult you know you could kind of it's good to it's good to say those things out loud so we can all kind of KN along go oh yeah it's really strange you know yeah her Tales of abuse and sexual abuse we like like that's just so odd that and would behave that way so anyways so the parents are supposed to be frightening threatening disorienting alarming unpredictable and so they're just erratic and confusing you know and uh also you know maybe sometimes they're nice and some other time they'll attack you and you can't predict what's going to happen you know so you're very thrown so that whole thing of like the chaotic and unpredictable Behavior you know that just freezes people and she talked in the book this again is Jessica Fern the author that I was sort of using for my part of these notes yeah and she was um just describing a patient where everyone was kind of afraid of this patient's mother even other adults and so they'd be at like a family gathering and all of a sudden you know the mom would start acting crazy and even the other adults didn't know what to do they all froze you know and so it's that kind of like unpredictable behavior and she said you know for her patient sometimes the mom could be nice other the mom would be incredibly hostile and uh uh vicious so anyways it really messes with all the all the mechanisms right so you know I like I was you know when I read this thing for myself my throat's getting a little tight that's real man it's real it's very real yeah so um when I uh when I was listening to this thing I was like okay you know I can acknowledge that this is the space I come from and some of it is just you know I'll share a little bit of uh something that jumped out from the book because she also mentions this thing when kids are asked to solve the unsolvable things so the kid is put in some situation where they're given a task Way Beyond their means to do it right the kid just can't do it and then the parents pissed off and uh my brother doesn't like to be talked about uh so I don't ever talk about him but I'll talk about this one time because we would get these weird tasks with my dad of one of the three people now I love my dad but definitely issues on top of his issues and uh we laugh about it now my brother and I because it's just so odd so my dad would have be doing some family project like he like to rip down walls and beat things up and rebuild parts of the house you know that was how he vented probably a lot of his anger to be honest and he'd be doing some kind of project and if you can just visualize this it's a tiny kid you know my brother was maybe you know he's six years younger than me so for him it was really impossible but it's impossible for anybody you could be like [...] Schwarz and aeger combined with like any other you know John Cena or whoever you couldn't do this task which was my dad nailed a 2x4 to another 2x4 and just put a nail in it so the 2x4s are rocking and spinning there's no stability in this and my dad would ask I can't believe we laugh about this my brother and I I can't help it but my my we' be asked to like hold up a big piece of drywall oh man with this 2x4 and my dad would be trying to you know Hammer this in and like we' be you'd be sitting there like you know shaking and like you know there's no way because there's no stability in the thing it's a single nail holding a [...] 2x4 and my dad would be screaming and you'd be like trying so hard because you know he could get super pissed and like he wouldn't throw the hammer at you maybe but the hammer might go flying across the room and who as well you would do and like that resonated so deeply when I got to that part because we were in those situations like all the time do this impossible thing you know and you know I brought it to my brother and again I think there's a certain like dark humor obviously you look back on things and you laugh but it was just it's not the worst thing we went through obviously I think my throat closes because I had one of the relatives who tried to jam eggs down my throat with a spatula my throat gets funny g&t we'll talk on honestly but in any case you know that wasn't like the worst thing but when she brought up that unsolvable problem we could give a long list of things where like you just couldn't do this right and then you have enraged adults getting upset with you yeah so you know so being uh challenged in ways and then adults getting mad at you or being undermined and then she gets to the end of this she just talks about sort of like family chaos you know is just sort of one of the big things with this and there was allot you in my family and just problems between the couples where they were constantly fighting with each other you know and um so that's another brings up to get to the end I know get anything to say about this I'm kind of going through the general theory but I don't want to no I mean there's you know no okay all right so cool I mean if you have patience or something you want to share about but yeah um so she also mentioned some in things like um you know like the highly sensitive person person kind of theory the HSP thing yeah you know where maybe you get people who are just super sensitive and um Everything feels chaotic to them so even if they maybe didn't come from the most difficult households because of their particular levels of sensitivity whatever there was of chaos within the house just they felt it more deeply and then they weren't sure how to like handle that and then that leads to something where if you're a very sensitive person in this way you're feeling the feelings of other people but the feelings of them are confusing and it disorientates you especially if you're highly sensitive to the emotions of others and then she get some final examples of people who have physical illness when they're young you know that makes you're very vulnerable and not sure how to attach to the world and um she kind of closes with the idea of like people who might have more severe allergies even where everything is potentially a danger and you're not sure what you should do with yourself should I go forward I go back do I have to be afraid am I free to just play and be easier do I have to worry so she does a pretty good job of walking through like okay here's the main idea and then like little like other possibilities might have happened to people so yeah got got a little light on this light better so you know there's um what did I want to say in in any relationship or we'll say in any attachment right there is uh two you know we we want to be dualistic but we're going to say there's two sides of things at least and what we're talking about is one person and another person and there's usually usually someone who's a little bit more of the leader and someone who is a little bit more of the follower in in almost every attachment right okay yeah there's a truth to that um and you know the percentages are going to change based on adulthood you know relationship and it could switch and so on and so forth fine but you do have there is a dynamic there and in that Dynamic there are some obviously psychological aspects at play but then also physiological aspects at play and so I'll I'll do one as a child and one as an adult since we're going to move into the adult kind of stuff here in a moment so I like I like to share this because I don't think that this is common knowledge right and so and you know it certainly didn't come from me it's it comes from many different Traditions the cranial sacral therapy being one of them but the the child uses the adult's nervous system to gauge the safety of the outer World I.E the safety of the inner world so if the adult is always out of sorts is uh what's the word we go disorganized the child then a believes that the world around them is disorganized which it is okay fine but in a different kind of a way that it's not going to be okay it's not going to be all right it's disorganized Anything could happen at any time you have to always be on edge or withdrawn right there's no middle ground because that's how the parents are acting in this way right they're reactionary so that's kind of on on on one hand as you move then to an adulthood and you are partnered with somebody and whether you're you know monogamist or polyamorous you're with pair well no matter even if we're talking about our tonric relationship you're Canna be with somebody yeah you're GNA be with someone so and depending on your relationship that is also occurring the people's energetic Fields right and the body is an electromagnetic um field that is cre there's electricity going through the body therefore there's magnetism around us right whether you want to believe in a aura or not there is everybody has one around them and that aura is innately part of your nervous system and so there therefore we are co-regulating each other right so some people have a larger capacity to co-regulate others and these are these highly sensitive people an interesting question like I don't know okay that's interesting thing I I can say about that for sure is this is a major thing like that I started to realize when I was doing Zen which was the extent to which we do impact one another in those subtle or unconscious ways you know um we talked about it before but I can remember like if you do a Zen Retreat like it can be painful sure right those are those are demanding practices you know they they push you right and I can remember like being one of the Retreats and like you know you're in this thing it can be painful it can be stressful you're challenging yourself right to grow yeah um so I can remember that I felt um this wave of calour over me in the midst of all of this and I was like God that's so inter where did that come from and I just saw hosaka roshi the Zen Master's feet just walking you know into the thing to take his seat and I was like that's amazing actually you know look at that he's like putting out such a strong you know they use the word key or Chi you know energy in that sense right he the Japanese version of energy and she the Chinese right but he was putting that out so strongly that you could just see it affected everybody yeah and it was very eye opening and then as I went through my Retreats you know doing that because I did a lot of them back in my 20s s i Built My spiritual foundation for myself yeah uh as we talked about here and there but like you know you could be in the retreat again we talked about these things too and you'd realize we don't you know they talk we we talk about oh that person's really struggling you could realize afterwards they didn't say anything right it's all new and you just start trying to dump the Positive Vibes towards them yeah and you try to help them out like it's very real it's very real yeah and so as as adults and as and I'm and I'm going to venture to say that the most of the people who are listen listening to this have some sense of cultivation some sense of self-awareness right that they are doing some kind of work on themselves so if you're doing that good for you two thumbs up um but I believe that the when you begin to do that in your own life you begin to cultivate yourself you have a larger capacity to regulate your own system and thereby regulate others and so if you find that people feel good being around around you they come to you with um problems they seek your counsel or maybe you're a Healer in some type or you are even working in HR you know that you're this kind of like regulator you're the stabilizer you know and that comes that comes from that and you know conversely if that is never developed and you're one of these disorganized attachment style kids you're going to grow up to be very likely without any input disorganized attachment style adult yeah Ian that's the thing that you try to go through for I mean for all of us I think the one part is being honest like saying okay maybe I do have some features of this and we're giving a description to learn from it I feel like every bit of like something we threw out to people whether it's a set of Buddhist ideas or doist ideas or Sufi or you know whatever it is cabalistic all these different things we talk about so that we can all like self-reflect on it and think okay what part of this is useful and meaningful for me yeah and then we psych things too right because okay we present the whole Theory here and you get to kind of go back and say what can I learn from this and you know I you know a big part of what you're saying is that the better you able to regulate whatever these needs are in yourself then aura or not AA or Chi or key or whatever your Pana whatever you want to call it it's going to like Ripple out yeah be better for others and I think when I first started doing the Zen thing I started to realize like as far as the nervous system you know goes everyone's talking about their nervous system now everywhere you know uh to regulate your nerv nous system but um I know when I was doing Zen I thought wow this is just I thought about it almost like electrical magnetic thing yeah I you can I can handle more and more charge kind of sure right and the charges don't freak me out yeah by having more and more of this charge I'm okay you know my it's almost like a a capacitor if you want to get like electromagnetic or engineering or something I can handle more charge which means I can handle more stuff and still be fine and that was part of like Zen trading for me for sure yeah that goes to the present day right all right all right so should we do them in adulthood I think we should pause you want to pause and save it okay yeah okay cool just time wise we other else we'll have to stop and and whatnot so we'll just we'll pause here and and we'll let it roll and and next time we'll pick up with the adulthood um because it's a little bit of a longer discussion anyway so we want to give it the space that it needs so all right that's true okay and then we'll probably do like uh what this means psychologically and spiritually right so absolutely Cal ort episodes to come episodes to come yeah well Eric as always thank you for uh for rocking you know always appreciate it audience thank you for listening you know uh tune in to the things uh like comment subscribe hit the notification Bell you know we got content coming out like very regularly now so um you know we're trying to uh build a brand here a little bit um you know we have our Retreat coming up which is uh sold out in person but we're offering it online so if you have any questions about this please feel free to hit us up at Jin and Tantra gmail.com uh or leave a comment in the YouTube section uh share our work it doesn't you know cost anything but it definitely helps you know us reach more people and and you know Keeps Us motivated uh to continue doing what we're doing and so if you find use in what we're doing uh please share uh but thanks either way for Eric this is Daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace [Music]