[music] Hey fellow G&T, those of us like our spirituality with a twist. So in we're in the midst of doing one of our little G& type series. We're talking about Christianity and we've gotten to the point of talking about the Gnostics. So really interesting spiritual stuff and definitely in our sweet spot. The whole thing is part of this bigger series which is kind of our America what the hell tour kind of looking at what's going on around us uh you know why America's gone down the tubes and with the acknowledgement that part of the problem is a kind of a toxic Christianity unfortunately um so on and our style of doing things rather than dwell on just the news of the week or just the downsides of the now we decided to kind of have a deeper discussion about Christianity and all it all of its various varieties just as a way of trying to explore the subject in a way that we can all can hopefully get into. Okay, so nostics for today. But before we do that, uh if you can do the things that everyone always asks you, which is like, subscribe, share an episode, do all the great things.

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we got your back. You can have ours. So, uh, all right. Uh, Gnostics. So, um, this is the last of like sort of like these four early branches of Christianity we're trying to cover. This one is really fascinating because there's just so much depth within it. So, we'll try to like share some ideas and then Daniel and I like obviously we're going to kick this around because there's so much to say about it, right?

Yeah.

So,

um okay, a little context. Um so, this is a really really complicated group and there's lots of questions about it. If you get to like the pure scholarly point of view, people debate whether there's even like such a thing as like gnostics. Is that a right thing even to call this really diverse group of people? you know, uh, we don't have to have that debate, but it does show how [clears throat] like how much diversity there is within this group of like early Christian spiritual practitioners, I guess you would say, right? Um, but they are amongst like the really earliest people too. And um, you know, as we talked about in different ways, really big in parts of like the Roman Empire and part of the parts of the Christian world, like really big in Egypt, maybe even going back to like some of the more mystery cult things that would come out of Egypt and things like that. Um the other part about this is that um uh they're kind of attacked and wiped out. To me, Daniel, this fits into the whole question of like those aggressive parts of the Christian tradition that want to turn on the other parts. It seems like that's always kind of been the thing for better or for worse, right? There's a really aggressive aspect of it.

In fairness though, Eric, multiple religions are like this. So it's not only the Christian one. There's there's a there's a toxicity if we would like to use that word. There's a animosity in numerous religions. And specifically I'm thinking of you know Islam at this point. You know the that people are really unaware of waring factions within Islam currently at least the West from you know what they talk about on TV anyways right which is basically

like Shiites and Sunnis right?

Yeah exactly. you know, and then and Kurds and and you know, Sufis and there's just not a whole lot of uh discussion on this, but you know, high amounts of animosity and much of what we're talking about with Christianity is is present in that also. It's like, I don't like you, I'm going to kill you. God will also punish you because of course we're right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I see that as part of um the way I'm thinking about this for this podcast. I see that part of what we're calling proto orthodoxy in the Christian world.

Sure.

Orthodoxy. Like I'm willing to go to the point of just saying, okay, you got orthodox mindsets, orthodox traditions that have that

that need to like attack those who are not them or something. And that's like that's a core problem. But fair enough, it's not just within Christians, right? That's true, right? Mhm. But you have like a real paradox within this then because you have the parts that are very kind of, you know, beautiful and tolerant, right? And you have the other parts that are kind of shockingly hostile, right?

Yeah.

So I think you feel it. I think you can feel it in any of these traditions. That's true, right?

But you can really feel it here because it seems so jarring, right? To have that under like one word or something. Um, so the big thing that happens with this because they're kind of attacked and wiped out ultimately initially what's known about them just comes from like the protoorthodox group who would accuse them all of being heretics, right? And then um uh eventually you know uh texts are found as far as the history of this goes in a place called Nagamadi in Egypt and then you know all of a sudden there's this revelation of like these people within their own words right

that come out. So that's kind of like the historical backstory.

Do you have the story on that how that how that guy found those texts?

I can't remember all the details. I wasn't prepping it for this one but he kind of just stumbled across it in a cave. Right. And because it was the desert, they were preserved like really well.

Yeah.

But there is a bigger backstory behind it. And I don't remember all the details. I know. Do you remember it or No,

I thought that um he he had a dream.

Oh, I don't know about that. I don't I don't think I've heard that part.

Yeah, I thought I thought it came from a dream.

I think he was scavenging actually to be honest. But if you if it gives a little bit more lore, it could be from a dream, I guess.

Yeah, maybe not. But it was it was I know it was by a farmer.

Yeah. It was just a like it was just a guy, right?

Yeah.

And he stumbled across these like canisters with these like really ancient texts inside of them.

Mhm.

Yeah. As far as people that we like on the pod, Carl Young is kind of involved in this too because he was involved with like getting some of these things translated and there's some of them were actually I think even gifted to him, you know, as like obviously there's some money going around

of course. young but you know uh so he was kind of an important figure in all of this kind of stuff. Um so uh we can talk about the philosophy of it unless you have other backstory stuff. I guess the only other backtory I have would really be like narcissism is very complicated because there's so many groups with so many different beliefs and some of it's pretty technical. So, I know my goal in this, Daniel, was just to go through and say, "Hey, here's the here's some of the key ideas that could have resonance with us now and

maybe help us think about

even how we think about some of these types of Christianities that are more aggressive or yeah, more narrow, you know, more dogmatic."

Right? So, that's what I sort of had in mind in this. Do you got other preamble stuff or should we start kicking around?

No, no, we're good.

Okay. Um, okay. Okay. So the first thing of this I guess [clears throat] what we'll have to explore is narcissism is going to emphasize this thing called nosis.

Mhm. And the big thing is going to be like well what does that exactly mean right in terms of when we talk about Nosis and so it ends up being like even when you think about someone like uh you know Jesus and Christianity you know he's a salvation figure but more as a person who's like a teacher here sharing knowledge about how to gain insights into the nature of reality and you know how one is like sort of spiritually saved and spiritually progressed but not in the same way you get in other kinds of Christianity is it's a you're supposed to have some kind of insight or some kind of knowledge into something deeper about reality. It isn't based on like I have faith in this person who was a sacrifice for my sin or something like that.

Yeah. So um and I think that's like such a an important point in Christianity because it ends up being to my mind so different. I know what you think about this, but to me, you know, to look at like this as being something more about knowledge and insight and nosis as opposed to this idea that we're all here because someone is going to die for our sins or something. It's such a flip. The switch is so different.

There's this like meme [clears throat] out there. There's a woman who's explaining like what we might call like our proto orthodox or more conservative kind of versions of Christianity

and uh you know it's her talking and there's a lot of reaction videos to it where people are kind of just sitting there with like puzzled expressions on their faces

when you hear the actual thing because it's kind of like God loves us but hates sin. She's explaining so he makes us sinners so then we're all going to get damned. Oh,

but then he sends his son and then he kills him as a sacrifice.

Oh.

And if you believe that uh that he was killed as a sacrifice, you're saved. If not, you're just potentially damned again.

And then

yeah, it's really a twister. And then in the end, Jesus is gonna come back and like in a big fiery [...] show to punish everyone who didn't get it, you know, and you're like, "Okay, uh that's pretty crazy sounding." And uh you know, so when you get to the Gnostic part, I don't know. I think when I first started here, like because I was raised Catholic, you know, and uh you know, when you get to like the Gnostic part, it's I don't know. It was sort of I remember talking to a friend of mine from grad school going there's this thing called gnosticism and it's a completely different version of what all this means and uh I found it to be uh I don't know very refreshing or something to me I know do you have a reaction of how it felt to you when you first got into this? I felt very like you know some of the emotional connection I had to the tradition like was able to kind of like be framed different and it felt very good to me. Well, I I'll take a a a slight detour to where when you first started talking about Nosis in general and how the kind of aspects of insight were present at the very beginning of, you know, Christ's teachings

and how that sort of faded, as you could say, over time. Yeah.

And there's uh there's a book that uh one Eric Baker sent to me for my birthday uh the the the au Zen the authentic gate that that talks about something like like this and and he calls it like a uh the ladder of I don't know if he uses the term ladder but like the steps or or foundations of spiritual practice. And I may not get it perfectly right so forgive me author if you ever listen to me. Um the first part is faith. The second part is actually practice. The third part would be realization. The next part is like actualization. So the sort of stabilizing of one's realized moments. And then the fifth part is is assimilation. If that I believe I believe that's I believe that's correct.

It sounds like that like it's a good list anyways. It sounds like it would be something like that, right?

Yeah. Isn't perfect. It makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah. And so faith is is the beginning of these sort of steps in the in what they consider like a spiritual practice overall. But that's the first step. It doesn't really become a practice until you start to practice. And you know what any tradition, not any tradition but the Zen or the Buddhist tradition would consider you know meditative practice as the next practice which would then give you uh opportunity for direct experience or what I was calling realization. They would call direct experience and then as you have this you know kind of regularly then you will have a stabilization of this. This will be your like actualized process of of being in that state more often than not. And then once it becomes more solid then you assimilate it into your life your direct experience of oneness if you want to call it this or God or whatever and then you live it essentially. And so I had been sort of uh walking around with this in my mind is like faith is kind of like the foundation because you do need some motivation to get you to to get you to the altar if you will. However,

maybe a different word in that might be like

God, faith has such a particular meaning, but it might be like confidence.

Sure.

You know, or the willingness to take a tumble at something.

Yeah.

You do in life, you're going to need that. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to kill you.

No, you're good.

I'm using faith in this sentence because we are talking about faith in particular. faith around this this person being

the the way to heaven, the way to salvation, the way to oneness, the way to realization.

And that is not the end all be all. It it takes the onus off like we've said many many many times before. So, we apologize for the continued beating up of this uh thoroughly dead horse, but you you do need your own autonomy within this as a thing because that's how it becomes part of who you are. And you know, maybe we have we should have somebody on and you know, let them argue with us that faith is all that you need. But I just don't know how we if we are given uh rationality and choice and everything else that you would just disregard those things and rely solely on belief only.

I just

obviously doesn't fit with me.

Yeah. Obviously in a way like all these questions have been there from the very beginning, right? Mhm.

That's the thing I guess that's kind of fascinating to me as someone who like cares about spirituality and so this this even these very early questions with people kind of like debating this you know is it just because I believe a certain thing you know well that's one thing to say is it because I have to like participate in acts you know that are like rooted in that faith and make it more about practice people have been debating this now for like 2,000 [...] years [laughter] you know and it's Like again one of my favorite people in the scholarly world of this is this B airman and he points this out too from the very beginning it's almost like there was this debate around these questions you can

almost again like again I've talked about a little bit I made a trying to make a point of like listening to all the gospels I don't time to read them but I can listen to them

being read you know and I've gotten up to like half I I skipped Luke [laughter] so I did Mark Matthew Luke I'll get back to because the first three are kind of the same you know So I'm like doing a little bit of John but I'm like yeah you can feel the tension in there between like am I just supposed to believe something you know and that's the critique of the now almost you know like okay I said I believe something and I walk around acting like a dick [laughter] you know okay you know what because I believe something that's all I have to do

weird call yeah but apparently it's been there from the beginning yeah and then when you get to the gnostics it's obviously that it's more like in in a way that would resonate I think with more of the kind of spiritual ity we talk about here which is like okay now we're talking about the word you like to use teachers and teachings that are supposed to be there to help people progress in some way right

now you have something different so yeah

well like I said before for me this was like a fresh glass of water into something you know that uh that you know I had like an emotional attachment to on some level I think we talked about this before too I think if you're raised in a certain tradition you have your emotional feelings about it right and I have emotional good feelings about JC. We kind of like there's we want to feel good about it, right?

Yeah. Um, more on this before we look at like what you're supposed to have not nosis of.

Yeah, we'll go nosis.

Okay. So, the real question is if there's going to be some nosis, some kind of knowledge, some kind of insider or understanding of something, what's the thing it's supposed to be nosis of? And as it turns out, one of the really big ideas is that of like this idea of the demi-urge versus the true divinity. So there's like a split. Again, we've seen this in a couple of these branches of Christianity, but it pops up again here in a very particular way, which is there's this demi-urge figure who's the creator of the universe and uh that we live in and he is deluded and foolish and a screw-up.

So, it's a very weird statement. It's this idea that we're living in a universe that is kind of a mistake created by a deliluded divinity is like what you're supposed to realize on some level and we can explore what that might mean. I guess we'll present it and then we can figure out what we make of it Daniel. I guess right

that's one of the ideas. So there's kind of like a creation story where there is a true divine source and I think this has like a universal feeling to it where you could use the word Dao for this if you were a Dowist or you could use uh you know if you were a Greek person you might say this is like the pure intellect or the monad or something but some kind of true source that's pure and good because the gnostics were also influenced by uh Greek philosophy Sometimes they'll use like you'll see this in Greek terms like they'll say like the plleoma right so but the idea is that this is like a pure source and then creation starts to emanate out of this pure source and at some point something goes wrong. So there's like this branch off where something goes wrong and then there's this demi-urge figure that's created and this demi-urge figure is kind of parallel again which is a question a lot of Christians had in the beginning of like this demi-urge figure is kind of correlated with the god of the old testament who's kind of angry kind of bitter kind of jealous kind of possessive kind of vengeful you know this divinity and they kind of go like there's something wrong with that. So we've seen that in a couple of these branches of early Christianity, but this one is very strong point. And so something has just gone wrong and then we as living things are living within the world created by this demiurge figure, right? And we can figure out what we think that means. I got some thoughts on that. So this is sort of like kind of an addressing of like a perpetual spiritual problem. We live in a world, the world is troubled. If there's a pure source to it, why is it troubled, right? The theodysy problem. So that's sort of [clears throat] the gnostic take on this that there's this something went wrong in the flow of creation and then we got into this branch which is again corrupted or something being dominated by this demiurge figure which is a kind of a diluted divinity. It feels like it's all powerful. It feels like it's all this stuff, but it's like this troubled diluted being. I know. I'll throw it back to you, Daniel. What do you think?

Oh, I mean, what would what they say? You ain't all that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I I mean, I think there is good evidence to support their belief, especially when you're using the Old Testament as the foundation for that,

right? that that version of God looks very different than in the New Testament. So, okay, fine. I think my only issue with this overall is that like they they really stand on there is an imperfection and I don't know on a relative level. Okay. On a relative level, we can say, "Yeah, shit's [...] for sure. There's lots of suffering. There is lots of discrepancy in power dynamics and subjugation of minorities, colored people, you know, the more color more colors you have, the worse off it is historically for you, for sure. um you know separation of powers and and ability people that to live good lives and okay fine but I also don't understand everything so I think it's hard even to make a very clear statement by saying there was a mistake and that mistake created this thing and then this thing did this but there's something that is still mistake free that's on top of this other thing. I I that part never really it doesn't it never resonated with me even though we've talked about this before. We've had on Miguel Connor from Aon Bite which is a good conversation. Maybe we get him back on to argue with us again. Um but you know I that that part just never really resonated with me being maybe being more of a dowist person. Um I just don't

Yeah, I do hear you. I'm processing. Yeah. So part of what you're saying is like kind of two parts. One is I don't know how to judge that because it would like imply a level of knowledge that is like more than what I'm willing to say, right? You know, how am I going to judge whether this is like a total [...] or not,

right? Um then the other part is you know um the Dowist vibe which is like no I should be able to look around the world and see that it's a more of a direct expression of something that is uh from a more like pure source or something like that right

yeah all right let me do like a little bit more and then like uh I'll give the next like layer on this and then we can talk it through because yeah this is very thoughtprovoking to me right

there is something deep to think about this. It does seem like it's a way of trying to describe what's going on in the world in kind of an incisive way because you get this demi-urge conversation, right? And then the idea is that the demi-urge also has these kind of power centers that emanate out into the world which is like kind of the next step of the logic of this, right? again editing it down a little bit. But you know like the other major point is that once you have this sort of like toxic spiritual source this power then emanates down and creates these thing called archons and the archons end up being kind of like the rulers of the world. So the demi urge is sort of the source of this and then this this kind of corrupted power flows out over the world and then these kind of corrupt forces end up kind of ruling the world. So that's the archon idea and you can get the feeling like if you were living in like Rome or something the world would look that way to you right there's this sort of like corrupt toxic thing. Mhm.

The provocative part for us looking at this now is kind of like again we're perpetually in this like Philip K. Dick said you know the great writer the Roman Empire never ended. It just kept flowing on. Right. And you know we're not going to do news of the week or anything but we're in the context of all the the pain and turmoil around like the Epstein class concept. Right.

Correct. And as much as any time, you could still walk around with that feeling like, yeah, there's something wrong and that there's this corrupt like network and locus of power that seems to be like this oppressive doineering force. And every time you you dig into it, you seem to find that happening over and over again, right? So, I just wanted to throw that as like sort of the next piece of this

and it gets into what you're saying again too that you end up with this thing of like, well, there's something whether this is entirely true, you don't know, right? I agree. But whether there's something that's provocative about it, that's kind of true, right? because you start scratching away at the veneer of things like in the way it's happening now and you're like, "God damn, it's still this rot, you know, uh this aronic archonlike rot. You still find it, you know, in this kind of nexus, too. That's one of been one of the bizarre things with this. Again, we're not doing news of the week or anything, but you know, when you look at like something like all the stuff that's been erupting out, like how interwoven it is, too. with all these like archonic type figures, right? So, yeah, I know I know what you mean. I don't know if I can buy it as like a literal description of reality. I I feel the same way, but then there's something powerful about it because it does seem to capture stuff that's still going on 2,000 years later. You still have that same phenomenon. And what do you think about that part, the archive?

Yeah. So there I have uh one is that we say 2,000 years as if it's a long time. It's not. So the other part is that the the Gnostics while I I I am definitely into the idea of knowledge and practice also are coming at this from a more recent perspective and sort of retroactively fitting things. You know even from the particular even from the perspective of the Old Testament not everybody was Jewish. there were far more pagans in the world, you know, than there were people who practiced Judaism. And so as you had the I guess you could say the evolution of Christianity into the Roman Empire and then obviously then across the world, you had as as we've talked before the the patriarchs, the head of the households or the head of families if you want to call it this really. You could say probably head of corporations is probably a better terminology for in today's words that ended up converting and then everybody down from them had to convert. That was just how it that's how it worked. But there weren't that many patriarchs. It's there weren't that many. There's you knowif I don't know 50 or 100 main families and that was the main shift. So then now all their kids, all their concubines, all their kids, all the workers, and then that from that all worked all its way down. That's a huge swath of of people who converted. But simultaneously, the patriarchs themselves and the the nobility never really, at least, you know, from my studies, never really took it very seriously. They weren't rolling around with their crosses in their hands and like praising Jesus at the altar, you know, that was more of the, again, from my understanding, the the religion, the practice for those that needed it, their workers, to get them to work harder, to give them something to hold on to, to say, "Hey, listen. I know life is bad because you're working in my fields and you're my slaves and you're all this other kind of [...] but don't worry about it, dude. Don't even trip, bro. You're going to heaven, dude. It's awesome up there. This here, who cares? This is nothing. I mean, you know, I know it seems bad now, but don't even worry about it. You're good. Just keep doing what you're doing. So, it's sort of a selling them kind of a a hope in order to keep them to continue. But meanwhile, this this upper this we're going to we'll use the ter um modern terminology, very modern terminology, the Epstein class, they got nothing to do with it. They're they're they're off in their own. They're studying their own occult practices. They're in, you know, they're in mystery schools. They're they're still keeping up with their pagan traditions. They're still doing all of these, you know, if we dare say it, like dark arts at that time. And that's continued this entire time. And I don't know how long I don't know how far back that goes. It goes back at least to the beginning of Christianity. At least, if not further. I don't know how much further. My my knowledge of history is okay, but not that good from from the occult perspective. And so what I'm saying is that like this idea of the the Gnostics's idea of the demi urge I think is a description of a phenomenon that was already happening and okay you can label it as as this particular thing but it might have be it might even been even before that in which case we can label it as anything and what I what I tend to label it as is a perversion of human behavior because as we've as The saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And when you don't have the rules, limitations or uh moral obligations of other people, you find yourself in an area where you are confined only by the environment that you put yourself in. And if there are no uh confinements in those environments, as we've seen, do what you want. Who the [...] is going to stop me?

Yeah. Okay. So, like so much in this. I'll try to like give some reaction. We can kick it around, right? Okay. So, what I can't tell about this, and this is like a, you know, one of those hard points is like to what extent do people believe in a sincere way in things or not? Like there's some evidence that like even if you get to like a Constantine and we'll go deep history, right?

Emperor who converts Rome to Christianity, right? Um like there's evidence that like he did believe in it in some way or another whether he cared about like small points of theology or something. He probably didn't. But you know that's the weird question. To what extent do people believe? And then you get to the point of like what exactly do they believe in? Like my person I like to call out as like a massive [...] and bag of dicks is like Russ vote [laughter] who's like kind of the economic mastermind behind the current political structure going on now right author of project 2025 or one of the authors of that thing. Big voice within that and a real like economic schemer. I mean in in terms of like probably one of the main figures to like behind like the economic warfare part of what this is is like comes from sort of his mind [clears throat] seems to be the where it's coming from and he's like a Christian nationalist right avowedly so he just says yeah I'm a Christian nationalist I want Christianity to take over all these things right so authoritarian in that sense right so I mean he believes what does he believe. I don't know. So, I find that interesting. Maybe it's like a the psychologist in me too. I don't know what people believe or don't believe on some level, you know, or whether it's like I get what you're talking about. You were sort of talking about the idea of like the opiate of the masses. Oh, this is for you. Don't worry about it. You might be down in the gutter now. You'll dice at some point. It's going to be really awesome then.

So, don't worry about this time. I mean, there's a truth to that, right? Mhm.

The opia of the masses part, but I also don't know when you get to like a character like a Russ vote, does he? What does he believe? He seems like he believes he seems like he's a fanatic. He believes in something, you know, doesn't seem like it's always pure cynicism, but you know, I don't know. It's an interesting question, right? When I look at like the proto protoorthodox people, which for me is like the part where like you can kind of trace a lot of this toxicity back to, I think they believe in what they're saying. I don't think it's all just a question of like manipulation to my mind and to my ears. You could debate it, I suppose, right? But then that raises the weird question of like they believe in something, you know, obviously in the end it's a belief that

justifies the fact that I should have power over other people for various reasons.

Always that one

flows back to it.

Yeah.

Quinka, [laughter]

it always finds its way back to that,

you know. But anyways, I don't know what I think about the whole thing. I'm I I have like two minds on this and you know, we can get like the other part of what we're supposed to have nosis of, I guess, right? You know, when I look at this, I find something very provocative in this, right? In that I don't know if I would take this story literally. It's hard to know if people who are gnostic are taking the story that literally either because a lot of what they write is kind of deliberately provocative, you know. Mhm.

And maybe we like we'll do details on this in some follow-up episode. They write stories that are like kind of poking at people a little bit, you know. So to go and to say that thing that you're worshiping, it's actually a demi-urge and it's a clown

and it's trying to entrap you. It's being a little bit provocative or something. It has a little punk vibe to it or something, right? You're purposely doing something that's a little tweaking of people. And I don't know how literally you're supposed to take that or not. You know, as someone who's trying to learn something from this tradition, I don't know if I would take it absolutely literally. But when you look at it as a description of something that you're supposed to realize, there's something within it, right? Where part of what you can recognize is that there's something wrong with what's happening around us, right? And there's a lot of like power centers within this that are trying to be oppressive of like you could even say like the human spirit. It's trying to be crushing, right? And so part of what you're supposed to come to realize is that yeah, there's these forces that are trying to crush and oppress people,

right? So I think that's a powerful message, right?

And to me, I don't know if like the same way you were talking, I don't know if I could say it goes back to like an actual divinity, right? that is this. But I can get behind the idea of people made up a divinity [laughter] that is an oppressive figure

and then other people got involved in this idea of these this divinity that they've made up that's an oppressor and now you have a whole network established that is oppressive.

Oppressive. Right. Right.

That I can get behind.

Yeah. And then part of the nosis part because there's different parts of the nosis, but part of the nosis is to recognize that

like, oh, I better wake up to the idea that a lot of what's being presented is to me as being like hunky dory and even good is actually coming from this source that's kind of toxic. So maybe I wouldn't believe this as like an absolute metaph metaphysical description or something, but as like a description of like the human dilemma. I'm kind of into that.

Sure.

And then part of the recognition is that I find powerful is that part of the other part of the nosis is and maybe we'll talk about this a little bit more. Uh maybe we'll do a follow-up episode on this, but like you're supposed to recognize that you have your own spirit. And part of what this demi-urge and these this archonic kind of structure is trying to get you to do is not see that.

It's working really hard to not recognize your own internal spirit or if we're being Buddhist about you might say Buddha nature

or your original spirit. It's trying to get you not to see that

because in a certain sense it's parasitic on it. It lives on your human energy. It lives on your human spirit. So it has to like mind [...] you not to see that truth about yourself. And I find that powerful too if that speaks to you, Daniel.

Of course.

Sounds like the sounds like the greatest movie ever made. The Matrix.

Yeah. And The Matrix is a Gnostic movie.

Absolutely.

Like deliberately so. Right.

Yeah. So I mean that speaks to me, you know, and then it's something like there's like to me then I see like two sides of the flipping of the switch. You're supposed to say, "God, a lot of this stuff is presented to me is like good or right or should be. I better recognize that that's wrong.

This is coming from a toxic vision of divinity." And then the kind of toxic power structure that comes out of this flow that I'm in on. And then the idea like, okay, what I also have to recognize is that these forces are trying to stop me from seeing my own true nature. And I better like also then withdraw from that or figure out how to get away from those toxic forces and recognize my own true self. That speaks to me. You're both processing it.

Yeah. No, I mean that

that's [clears throat] right.

Yeah. That I mean that Yeah.

Yeah. I mean I think that's Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's not I don't think there's much argue. I I mean if you're into reflection, introspection, you believe that the world is more than just gears and balls colliding with each other. That sounds funny. [laughter]

He did rivalry.

That's right.

The great the great hockey show. Gay hockey show. Yeah.

Yeah. Um but if you believe

me [...] because every time anything comes up I say he did rivalry. I can't let it go. [laughter]

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I I think if if yeah if you believe that there is more than than how things appear then this is absolutely the undertone for that drive to see beyond it's like okay well what else is there externally right so e you know even for conspiracy-minded folks which at this point I don't think how anybody can really say what's not possible anymore

right

it's hard to know where the conspiracy would end right you I don't know. You know, oh, aliens aren't real. No, they are. Oh,

okay. All right. Sorry. Never mind. All you people are totally good. You're good to go, by the way. You know, um,

yeah,

that all this stuff. But there is a drive to know. There's a drive to know. And the hope at least for me to I don't know to find more common ground with those people would be to get them to take that external drive and turn it back inwards on themselves. Then we would be the same really.

Yeah. I guess I you know you're being like even a little bit more ecumenical than I'm being I guess. And you might be right. You know, my gut reaction to some of this stuff is like there better be a major rejection of like toxic philosophy, toxic stuff, you know, like I'm getting to that side of it, too. And you know, like some of the episodes we were doing last year were around the idea of cult. Just to feel like, wow, I'm in a [...] cult.

In a certain sense, this whole thing is like a cult.

That's part of their undercurrent, too. You're in a cult. [laughter]

The you've been presented with this idea of this is how the world works. It's a cult, you know, and it's a toxic cult and you better snap out one part of a project. And then what you're saying too than the turning inside

and find this more true thing. And I guess you're being on the optimistic side. You're saying, well, yeah, more people can turn within in this way

and feel like a gnostic person would say, the spark of their own spirit, right? that's kind of trapped in some way, right, within the the oppressive aspect of these forces. Well, then maybe all kinds of people can convert their mindsets, right? Right.

And I think that's a very optimistic attitude,

you know. And I think that's right for a pod like ours because I think that's at the heart of like something like a Buddhist tantra or the kind of things that we're into that ultimately we'll all recognize our Buddha nature on some level. Right. Well, and the other part, Eric, is that people feel the the the cult actually is attractive because of how isolated people are now more than ever. So if if you are wanting to align and which everybody is wanting to align with someone or some group of someone's if you can align over your disbelief of reality as it appears to be well then now you have a very clear kinship about people who literally think and believe the same way. And there in my opinion there is no closer kinship than that. I mean, look at any rally for any particular political ideology. You they they're all going to have the same Yeah. You know, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they're going to they they they pump each other up. It's only when you go to one of these places and you start to be like talking [...] that you figure out where you fit in comparison with the rest of these people. So, um, the the group part is a really is a really important piece because we don't want to feel like we're alone. But at this point, and this is just me talking now, I feel like we do need to embrace the fear of aloneeness or of singularity, you know, of of ending of your existence. Yes, from a place of impermanence, but also from the idea that in order for you to truly let something go, in order for you to move forward, you have to embrace that thing kind of fully. And so if in order for us to transcend the limitations that we have of our own individuality, I have to accept that I am an individual and that I am I'm connected to everything on an ultimate level, but on a relative level, I'm still me. You're still you. whoever is listening to this is still them and understand that my time here is limited and it is going to end. And once I can kind of do that, then I actually have the opportunity hopefully to let that go while I'm still here. Because if I don't accept it full like it's like you talk about very regularly about uh being your most authentic self because if you're not your most authentic self, there is no real growth because you're not allowing yourself to be fully in your own capacity. You can't change something if you're not that thing. And so what I'm saying is that you cannot let go. You can't move forward. You can't come together. All those things until you embrace all of it is that who you are. And that comes that starts with your personality, all the other and your beliefs and everything else. And so if you can do that, then there's a hope that you might be able to turn turn your attention inward. But it's just not a large group of people who do that on a on a on a society on a societal level unfortunately from my from my viewpoint. So for audience members who tune in to us, you know, we kind of get meta for a second. If if you guys are doing that on your regular basis in your own life, man, like kudos to you. It it's not an easy existence. And I think, you know, we try and and share our own experience and how we see the world because we we're wrestling with things just as everybody else is. And this is s sort of our you know living dialogue of our interaction with the world as people who really want to and I don't mean to put words in your mouth Eric you could speak for yourself but from my interpretation as people who do want to find unity as people who do want to experience the interconnectivity the egolessness of of of of existence on its fundamental level and the last thing that I'll say is the the other part that we don't have access to is infinity. And I don't mean infinity as in the infinite. I mean infinity as in time. Because what we find now as time is a drop in the bucket. And time from something that lives for 10,000 years, a 100,000 years, a million years, 10 million years, whatever. They think time is very different. That's it's just the the dilation is so different. So, you know, them going into the 21st century is like that's their morning. You know, they haven't even had breakfast yet. Like, it's it it's nothing. And us, it's it's the ups and downs of all this madness. So, it's hard to say what it what is good or bad from a a societal humanity organism perspective because we're so drawn into the second by second es and flows of things. I just I would love to know what it feels like to be a being who lives for a million years to see the beings below me who are popping up and coming o out of existence like electrons. You know, it my my existence and my understanding would be infinitely different than than those uh beings who pop up and and erase themselves seconds later.

Well, maybe I won't touch the time part. [laughter] that's so uniquely you. [gasps] But I do appreciate what you're saying and I think, you know, as we close this one out,

I think I really, you know, like I definitely vibe with the idea like this, we do this little pod and it's kind of a reaching out to other people who are wrestling with the same questions, right?

Totally.

You're not alone, right? And uh maybe what gets me about this is like time goes on flittering my fingers here. uh but maybe some of the stuff has a perpetual quality to it. What I feel like I've learned in talking about this podcast and then talking with different people that I love and care about with these issues, you know, is the one part is like uh there's an authenticity question, right?

You were using that word. I like to use it a lot earlier. So, you're kind of say, hey, you like to use that word. That's true. It's kind of like this idea of how do you become uh the most true version of who you are? And there's always going to be these forces, whether we say demiurge or archon, that will try to oppress that. That's a thing, right? And maybe no matter how we flip through the times of things, you know, whether we're galactis or something, is that the Marvel character?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eating universes or whatever.

Yeah. Yeah.

Or we're like, as the Dowist would say, a sparrow flying tree to tree. [laughter] Uh, this problem is probably the same, right? Maybe it's a perpetual problem and maybe what we can learn from the Gnostic kind of perspective, the parts that we've looked at so far would be like, yeah, it's being identified as part of the problem. There'll be forces that will try to delude you, right, Keano Reeves? And then the other part will be that I think underneath that there's this deeper spark, which I think you were getting to two, the the metaphysical spark that you believe there's something more than just billyard balls on the table and molecules that are flitting around in and out of existence. Mhm.

Little quirks that are turning on and off. You think that there's something deeper, our favorite Chinese word, shen or spirit, right? And then that's the other spark you're trying to find. So your own personal spark of your own expression and then the universal divine spark that's in all living things. We're trying to find both of those or something. But either way, these [...]

archons are trying to stop you.

That's right.

You know, that's powerful to me. All right. Awesome. Great conversation. Thanks, Daniel.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. As always, Eric, thank you so much. Audience, thank you for tuning in. Um, you know, if you've made it this far in the episode, your attention is amazing and you deserve a break from uh all of the words that we've been talking about here. But if you would like to share any of your words, please feel free to leave a comment in the YouTube. I definitely do read them. Uh, positive, negative, or indifferent, you're we're welcome to say as you like. If you want to hit us up, uh, please feel free to do so. the uh Jyn and Tandragmail.com or on the uh on the Graham at the Jin and Tandra podcast. Uh we're also open to covering things if somebody has a a question or a good idea. We've done a number of episodes that have been inspired by our listeners before, so please feel free to uh tickle our fancies, if you will. For Eric, this is Daniel. We'll catch you guys in the next one. Peace.