thanks for tuning in to jin and tantra in this episode we discuss not following god's rules the battle of your internal instincts against your own willpower the difference between natural and moral evil religious structures and spiritual practice free will and the energy of activation enjoy the episode apology and tears those of us who like our spirituality with a twist we are back in the midst of our series of episodes on suffering dukkha uh you know we kind of like discovered as we were doing this podcast so we kind of end up doing these things in groups so sometimes we have a whole series of episodes on a certain issue or a certain set of issues like a certain theme and we're in the middle of the duke episodes because we're really kind of you know if part of our home base is to do uh buddhist tantra uh then you know this is part of talking about buddhist tantra for sure for sure but it's kind of like a big question anyways so we decided to do a big picture view on it and we talked about different traditions and how they think about this the other occurred to me daniel is that there's something really interesting about this i wasn't thinking about it when we were prepping it but there is this like a buddhist thing that they would do where they would kind of just describe other people's ways of looking at the world and uh you know i have some of those texts at home they kind of even go back to india all the way back to these big buddhist centers that they had north of india where they would just go like okay here's what brahmanas think and this is what the followers of shiva think and this is what this philosophical school in india thinks so they just kind of like lay out this whole set of ideas they're describing the view of whatever group of people it is and i thought you know that's actually kind of what we're trying to do here because like the original version of like a gathering of whoopi goldberg megan mccain barbara walters and he got the that's right it's so close to that yeah almost identical i really feel like you know that show might have been inspired someone in hollywood was like yeah or not perhaps not uh anyways you go through and you describe all this stuff but then you walk away with an idea of like okay what do christians think you know and you try to like do an honest presentation of that uh non-judgey hopefully right oh yeah and then in the end you kind of go like okay well this is where you might have points of agreement or disagreement or whatever you know so it is like we are tapping into a longer buddhist tradition of doing this right i thought okay that's cool that's ultimately what we're trying to do for people and then you know people can listen and you can go oh yeah maybe i do have some of those thoughts in my head to do you know especially i think in our in uh western culture because we're raised in kind of a christian culture anyways right so even if you're not christian you kind of sort of are you know just culturally yeah i mean it's really kind of true but we can debate that in future episodes that's a planned episode where we got to debate that question are you christian yes no or you cannot say no well it's kind of like it's kind of like uh in my mind part of the uh neoliberalism and you series we're gonna have to do a couple episodes on that because it's like this is the this is the water that you're swimming in whether you think about it that way or not it's kind of like how it is so anyways you know so we did the christianity thing um yeah we're going to do the rest of the big three they're kind of similar right in terms of where they think things come from but we'll kind of try to give them each a fair shake right i did do a little research on the joel olsteen prosperity gaskell thing uh which i don't know if we'll ever do anything on that more so then it'll just pop up occasionally it's just yeah it's head what was interesting is i i there's a lot of christians who don't like it too yeah i think it's a lot of crap from multiple directions so you know i thought that's interesting you know i was listening to some christian podcasting people who were like they were trashing joel i'll stay much worse than we would and you weren't you weren't you didn't go you didn't go mild on your criticisms like you went for it right it's fair but i stumbled across this story which i had no idea about so this is just uh news of the world somewhat dated but i know if you ever heard this but like apparently back in like 2012 maybe if i'm getting the dates right six hundred thousand dollars went missing from their safe mega church in houston 2021 if i had the dates right a plumber was doing some like uh work on a toilet in one of the facilities and there were six hundred thousand dollars [Music] in envelopes like in the wall wow behind the toilet and joel osteen's church and the question i don't think from what i did i didn't like past a certain point didn't research it you know but i don't think there was ever uh like a satisfactory explanation given as to exactly what happened there it was initially reported as a robbery from the save so i don't know what kind of robber would be motivated to steal six hundred thousand dollars and then like embed it in the wall behind the toilet and where you stole it from neatly take down the drywall you know and probable tile behind the toilet and then put back up said drywall and tile i don't know what the story means but i was just like okay that's interesting that makes it makes a person wonder if it does i guess if you ever rob that means you should just like investigate behind your own toilet you know see jin and tantra giving you helpful advice for your life you're welcome there first you're welcome might be the joy oyster oh scene thief you know just rip out to rip out the toilet maybe all the stuff that was stolen falls out again you know you find your iphone and some other [...] literally i know interesting story you know so i thought i would share it yeah with you and our g t audience i don't know we'll have fun joe hallstein but there it is the other thing i discovered is they have like a little joel osteen cube where you can like buy it and then you can just get his voice telling you inspirational things for the morning it just comes out or it's like you know you could do whole sermons it comes out of this little box so you have to go to church yeah why would you need to just spend money every month or every week just send your money in your tithes and uh yeah i think it's a deep tradition yeah yeah you don't need to go just that's all they really want anyways no i was like okay that's interesting i didn't know those things but the toilet story was like thought provoking all right as human beings we are uniquely subject to the magnetic pull of cultism you know i think this will come up even later you know like the teaching i had from the dalai lama in washington dc you know i talked about before on this i promised i was going to do it to the monk and uh and non-golan up in new york and so i did it i went and there is this thing of human beings like we can generate a lot of knowledge yeah but we also have a way of getting hypnotized by our own yeah ideas yeah it's one of the flaws of being a human being specifically we like our own ideas we like our own kool-aid yep yep it's a good point yeah all right well that's my that's my end of the christianity thing unless you have something else to say on it you know i'm i'm over probably come back up again the only thing i think maybe we didn't do fairly last week we did talk about the idea of like why is there suffering in christianity what's the explanations and we did do it we said you're not connected enough to god or christ as a connection to god or an or an aspect of god or whatever you want to say about that complicated question um because you're not following the instructions this is all going to repeat with the other big three obviously right that suffering is part of just the mystery of creation and there's a higher intelligence working behind it you know and so you may suffer in this life but in the next life you'll be rewarded right okay and there's a plan somehow um there are other explanations depending on like the christian perspective and it's the same in islam i think in judaism where you could see it as a test sure right which gets you to like the famous abraham story of abraham and is like the binding of isaac where um you know uh abraham is instructed by an angel to do a sacrifice and the sacrifices of the isaac people don't know the story you know so abraham does actually bind his son you know down as you're gonna execute them as the sacrifice which is like kind of a weird story on so many levels but also like if you really kind of know that story like abraham was longing for a son like forever that's part of the whole story so he's gonna give up his son is the thing he really like was most longing for in his whole life and the last minute the angel appears and says hey don't touch a hair on that child's head and then a ram appears or a sheep or something you know in the in the thicket nearby and then you know they sacrifice the animal so you're like okay complicated story but you know there is something like there's a test going on there and it goes back to that we're talking about judaism and islam and obviously so that story has to come up and do you think about that story ever or no no not unless it comes up but i'm not like rolling around the world going like man that abraham yeah that's a hell of a story i should think about that more in my daily life yeah exactly heading over to the whole foods now we might not think about that too much probably not but it's a deep story yeah i can't remember young carl jung this like like yeah famous psychologist psychiatrist has some stuff on that and maybe when we do young we'll talk about that because he's interested in these christian stories uh in any i don't know what does joseph campbell talk about it because i don't know he has a lot of words i haven't read them all yeah yeah i wonder what he would say about that maybe i'll do a little research for next show um all right and then the other part of it is like it could be a lesson to be learned yeah like we didn't specifically say that maybe we should because as i was doing my little research at least to try to present things at islam which i like again you know full acknowledgement in the beginning this is what i probably know the least about of the big three that we're gonna be talking about i know if you have feelings about too so i'm curious to see if you have thoughts on it but obviously in islam you'd say okay sometimes it's a test right which is the abrahamic story right why abraham is so important like in the islamic tradition too you know founder of the you know this whole tree um and then sometimes it's like a lesson or something right right so i guess we'll do those things as we get to that but anyway so that's it i thought that maybe we probably should do some justice at least mention those other ways of thinking about it yeah and probably like your average like follower of the big three probably thinks different ways at different times about that right i'm not trying to go back to my catholic roots what did i think you know how good of a catholic was i i don't know but when i thought about that what did they think did i sometimes you know that just would have been when i've been like like a boy into my early teens or something like that you know i probably thought different things about this at times you know like sometimes i probably would think okay i'm supposed to learn something from this you know maybe it's supposed to be some kind of a test or something i probably had those kinds of thoughts do you remember them at all i remember no i don't remember that because i never i never i didn't ask those kinds of questions at least regularly when i was a kid i i just remember though you know hearing it's it's not in accordance with god's will you know and so and i don't know where that fits along with god's rules or learning a lesson but like to me god's plan or something yeah yeah something like this plan but i just that word has always stuck with me you know god will you know like in arabic even in in christian arabic tradition and in the muslim arabic you know tradition you know that there's a word that says inshallah or insha allah right god god willing so if you say if if i was to say hey eric um let's get together this weekend saturday sounds good you'd say yeah that sounds good god willing yeah yeah you know and not christian you're you're saying you're saying allah right you're like yeah and you know oh god right yeah so inshallah is how it would pronounce together but but so it's like this kind of idea of like god's will as if it's like maybe it's a path or maybe it's but there's an intentionality that that sort of i don't know is is implied by that word and then it if it doesn't happen it's because it's not in god's will yeah yeah and if you're not in accordance with god's will then you're then the consequences would seemingly be logical at that point because you're not in in accordance with that but how would one know god's will i don't know i guess the rules that were laid out but you know like are there are you even talking about something different because there's no real rule against about us getting together on saturday or not getting together on saturday right that's more of just like an event right correct but if if there was a some if we weren't supposed to get together or there was something else that was supposed to happen then that would not be against god will god's will and neither one of us knows his will therefore if it didn't happen it was against the we're just making it into something you know we're playing a logical it's kind of like sometimes what the dalai lama will say like the way tibetans will talk about karma they'll just go yeah that was the karma that was either in favor or not in favor of that thing which is a little bit more arbitrary in the sense of like it wasn't like we were doing something that like was covered by the rules or something like that right right right right i can't remember if i thought that way as a kid you know like you have those little explorations yeah we try to be autobiographical on that sure podcast and the one thing i can remember for sure my parents got me this waterbed it was just like a bladder like just one of those plain water beds that just like a big like like rubber bag [Music] when i was like getting the point where i was going to be losing my virginity that was a hell of a thing to try to have sex on just be like sloshing everywhere sweet or if you're really drunk it could be a problem on the water bed stumbled back home drunk teenager water but there's a problem waving and we call that a vomit comet yeah so i had like it had this headboard on it and i remember at some point we had this huge family bible big red family bible i think by by probably my parents got it as a wedding gift or something you know like old school wedding gift that you would do that and my parents brought the wand of atheists so no one was using the bible so i remember taking it that might i grew up with my grandparents too and they like that they were the ones who took me to church all the time and i can remember reading the sermon on the mount you know and being like oh yeah this speaks to me you know blessed are the you know the sick they shall be healed blessed are the downtrodden spirit they'll be comforted i thought this is this is pretty great so you have those moments and i must have thought about some of these questions i'm pretty sure i did you know because uh i mean i like had some belief in something beyond the material world which translate later on in the buddhism or something that's my recollection of those kinds of things right the quran at all when you were young no no because my you know i wasn't introduced those complicated things partially catholic partially yeah yeah i wasn't i wasn't introduced to islam until probably i was about maybe 14 and before that you know i had some of my family that was you know sort of eastern orthodox or catholic really for all intents and purposes and then sort of my mom who left that and was searching and so would take us to various temples and things like this so on sunday mornings we would read like uh esab's fables that would be okay that would be our bible study you know so you know the story of like a fox who needs to try to get the grapes out of the tree or something like that yeah yeah that was that was that was that you know and she fought all different kinds so i i was aware of different like indian gurus and things like this from a very young age like it was like you know one was sai baba or something you know oh sai baba i think he might be the dude that uh pete townsend followed from the who might be i mean he was super i might have heard of him yeah for a while very musical i think yeah yeah so there was so i was introduced there's a who song called baba o'reilly oh well yeah that's like i don't know you have to know the who to know what this even is teenage wasteland oh yeah anyways that's the line from the song if you don't know who you'd be like what is this guy talking about but anyways oh i think that's a that's a bob o'reilly yeah it's bob o'reilly yeah yeah and like you know the store accelerate this is like total gnt randomness but the backstory of the synth line on that is he like i think he put in like astrological data for like this baba sai baba and like it just produced that little melody in the background wow and he used this as the backing of the track wow a little musical trivia for y'all man there you go but i remember like yeah i like that i like the who a little bit when i was a kid and i remember like i like that song i think it's a great track and i just heard that thing about that track and i thought well that's kind of interesting you know that yeah would do that so he's considered to be his guru so he tried to like get a whole idea that you would just put in people's information and it would produce melodies and so he just did that for that and that that little synth track i guess popped up and whatever the computer did that that's cool story yeah so i was fortunate enough to be able to be introduced to things like this when i was younger so i was just sort of like absorbing i didn't really i wasn't really yeah your mom was spiritually searching obviously right yeah and we had the great episodes with her talking about her sufi experiences so yeah yeah but you know that's that's part of the whole point with all this is to get people to be you know who are either searching or actively in a search right you know to be able to kind of find those um pieces you know the pieces that stick well i think in our gnt psychology then then you were kind of like introduced to this whole idea of being a spiritual seeker when you were a kid for sure mm-hmm for sure yeah and i'm like yeah yeah i know that and i'm unlucky for because of that i'm i feel lucky because of that i mean it's just two ways you can talk about that kind of thing you can say okay that's psychological because you were raised in an environment where people were doing that but you can also say that's karmic right if you want to be more boost about in the sense that you know you needed to be a spiritual seeker in your life and you had a mom who had that quality in her mm-hmm right she probably wore like buddhist tantra about it yeah all right very cool all right all right so islam i guess right try to talk about and see if we have to say and obviously i think i'll turn to you to the extent that you might know more about this than me but actually you know we'll see what you feel about this stuff all right so yeah again full disclosure this is the tradition that i am least versed in my interest in this really came through being interested in these great persian poets people like roomie and hafez those are the people i really like i love their poetry i think it's awesome i think it's fair to say those are some of the best poets ever created on this planet oh yeah i think many would agree anywhere it's the most beautiful poetry you got and so i'm like okay yeah they really speak through the power of their poetry and just the power of their ideas the power of their emotions and it's it's beautiful stuff so i like that and you know so it leads me to want to understand more about this um so i don't know you know but like it is an area where it's not like the thing i know as much about so i'll lay out what i got in terms of the research and you can give your impressions and like corrections as it goes or whenever you feel like you're sure yeah so the thing that came up was this idea of like uh natural evil versus moral evil it did come up a little bit and we haven't talked about that thing just that there can be suffering caused from you know natural disasters and things like that what you sometimes call acts of god in english right things that just happen because they happen like there's a tsunami or something or an earthquake and you know stuff just happens so these are natural sufferings i think the buddhist stuff we were talking about before birth aging sickness death those are just natural sufferings right just like part of like nature itself if you go farther then then they talk about this idea of what they call moral evil and moral evil is uh human beings causing suffering for themselves or for others and those things in theory would be preventable people would behave differently so i guess that's a framework we hadn't talked about too much but it did come up here so i thought i should like like put it out there that seems useful on some level if you can talk about human suffering to make it yeah i think these two and i think they you have it in the buddhist thing even though they make don't make it like super clear it's kind of there like hovering around right yeah i think the the the difficult part is that is then when you put a society in that in on top of that you know yeah and there's like the systems that are that are in place that are more favorable to some and less favorable to others what which one is that is that natural because it's man-made but it's not like that system is out to get you in particular but yeah but it the weaknesses of the creation of the system perhaps inadvertently or hope target some more than others therefore it seems man-made well how do you talk about it like it's not like it's it's not like it's not particularly out to get you mm-hmm because you're part of either a particular group that it's out to get right maybe it's just out to get everybody in certain ways you never know right because you're part of everybody mm-hmm you're gonna get got yeah you know and if you're part of a subgroup that specifically is being targeted then you're gonna get got even more so yeah yeah yeah it's so okay i haven't gotten the society sucks rant in a while and i'm going to save it we talked about that i'm glad you brought it up because i feel i feel satisfied like uh vicariously yeah from here doing that you know well i had to feel i feel voyeuristically satisfied watching you do that i had a client who went to uh scotland for a couple weeks and she just came back and she's there for maybe three weeks and she just was mentioning on how like in scotland in particular but in france as well and some other european countries that she's been to recently that like they make a seemingly good effort into integrating small business and big business in small business like they have to have a percentage of their food that comes from locally grown farms and they have big business but they also have a ton of small businesses and things like this and that the growth of one doesn't have to mean the stamping out of another one and she's like they have it right you know she's like don't get me wrong i'm capitalism has been the greatest uh driver to lift as many people up and out of poverty as possible across the world so she's like i'm not poo pooing on that however uh in its raw unadulterated form you know how we have it kind of it's perverted you know because in order for some to have others cannot they just work together and then like i talk about some of the systems that are implemented people who can will you know skirt out the rules and those who cannot are bound to them and they can be oppressive because especially if you're trying to compete you can't compete with those who have you know some ability to get away from the rules like paying taxes amazon for one example you know or move your money offshore which numerous corporations have done so uh a mom and pop doesn't compete you know in this case and so then we're looking when we type back into our conversation around suffering somebody might have had their business and their livelihood you know as something and then you know pandemic happens or there's some economic shift well what is that god's will is that is that a natural evil is that a man-made evil i i mean it seems to sort of run the gamut between all of them really well first of all daniel you know obviously what you're talking about is heretical because the free market has to work by its own devices oh sorry ease las vegas we haven't done our neoliberalism in you episode it's coming and uh um and uh yeah so we'll get there mm-hmm yeah um but uh also i think okay so on the natural evil moral evil there's no doubt that they say that like moral actions of human beings can make natural things like much worse okay and we just lived through that in this pandemic at least as far as it goes in the united states it was an opportunity for a bunch of people to robber baron a bunch of public funds and vacuum a bunch of the money upwards yeah which of course is part of like uh uh neoliberal philosophy and therefore obviously the good [Laughter] otherwise uh you know it couldn't have happened that's right if it wasn't the market's will it wouldn't have happened you know so in america we probably could say let's get together on saturday if the market wills it fine nice we can do that right yeah the market wills it all right so that's that question i wanna i mean we're gonna do the society thing a lot when we do the taoist one and maybe we'll do that big picture and maybe we'll do the personal one again you know and talk to it um so then they had this like is it shaytan so the way it works out as you might kind of expect is uh you have shaytan and shaytan temps adam and eve that story again um uh and i guess he was originally and i said this is just backstory because i just found this kind of interesting so the original name i guess was iblis is that how you pronounce the angel that used to be shaytan i don't know anyways that's what they said it's like they when it is ib lis you know how you would pronounce that in arabic all right anyways and they said he was an angel or a gin and i wanted to ask you about this jin thing because i didn't think shin were are jin sometimes good sometimes bad usually in the usually negative right yes usually negative yeah so maybe he's an angel who became a jinn or something i wasn't sure but they said he was an angel or sometimes a gin and i was like yeah i heard jin being described positive right there usually no pretty negative right yeah yeah so anyways that was the backstory of that and so there's this sort of like typical biblical story with this right going back to the old testament and uh torah and so then i guess in muslim thought everyone has sort of a natural instinct within them of right and wrong and the terminology they use there is something called like fitra but maybe you can correct my pronunciation on that too does that work familiar to you what's the word f i t r a h n it doesn't doesn't sound familiar some kind of like ins like it might also mean instinct i guess but some kind of internal um uh moral sense right probably implanted by the divine you have an uncertain internal moral sense because like i know i think you've referenced your inner gemini cricket have you done any episodes i have done a few episodes yeah you've talked about your inner jiminy cricket so this is i guess your inner gemini cricket yeah i know like in the what they'll they'll talk about like haram and hadith and haram meaning like you've gone against god's will it's like shame you know yeah i think english speakers sometimes know that word yeah and then and then to do something within god's will following the the rules you know like having sex with your wife or husband that's hadith this is this is good so you know you can kind of you can work your way back into the good graces of the lord by having intercourse with a married person who's who's yours apparently hopefully otherwise you're kind of like you're kind of like playing with the lines yeah i have no objection to it's up to you but okay yeah um so there's this internal instinct and also kind of a free will is implied there and we'll talk about the kabbalists like that god bless how they talk about this in judaism and the kabbalists would think the same way i guess um so you have this in your sense of right and wrong and this free will but then there's the shaitaan the evil jin trying to like lead you astray okay so most religious like big three religions this sounds pretty similar right life on earth and i guess is seen as being short so just this little respite uh there are going to be trials there are going to be sufferings they're going to be tests you can talk about why that would be in a little bit but eventually this is leading to a more paradisical existence of paradise type existence if you find your way through it so pretty similar right um and then i think the way allah is talked about here allah on the one hand will lead you right but then also and this is always the mystery in the big three is also going to test you right and whether that is for educational purposes right it's part of making you a better being or whether that's as a fair retribution for acts that you've done that are kind of like not so good right or whether that is a test to be handled with like patience and faith like kind of like the book of job or something like that right um like this is kind of like the the the kind of options here for how this would be talked about does that all make sense to you from um yeah that seems pretty accurate right you still get the same question which is like okay and this is the buddhist objection to this this line of thought for what it's worth right they would just say well why would the divine being that had all power and always do that right like why would it do that and they keep asking that question and i guess that is the question that's not to be you know uh negative to anybody who's like you know a muslim or a christian or you know uh following judaism it's just it is the question that's always going to be hanging there like why do that right like what's the point of that you know and so i don't know it's an interesting question i mean that you you know we'll talk about the free will thing obviously right yeah yeah i was gonna say yeah that's gonna come up with the judaism thing a lot obviously but in all these space so okay uh the other thing that they brought up too was that and this goes with uh obviously like what would jesus do you can imitate the qualities of allah right so when they're suffering you're able to generate compassion able to help others i mean that's kind of an explanation of sorts i suppose right there's gonna be suffering in the world and part of what it does is it leads you to develop compassion and empathy and like the ability to assist others and i think that's a big deal in the kabbalah for sure developing those resources inside yourself i guess the question still remains yeah i mean that's why i do it why not just give the people the qualities in the first place but free will or some [...] i don't know but i think that helps it helps with one's perspective right in a means to change the way that you're viewing why things would occur right yeah right is it like okay well i don't know why they're occurring but what can i do in the midst of the occurrence if i'm not able to like i don't know i guess i say like intervene in the way that would seem you know logical for me to intervene within then i would be able to kind of reflect back compassion reflect back empathy sympathy you know these kinds of feelings because they may not i mean yes to your point it could have just been imbued upon us and just flipped on with a switch and that could have been it um but without i've been looking for the switch hopefully it's it's more it's going to be more easily accessible but without that i think it does help but the only problem well not the only problem one of many problems is that that's not always a default sort of response right a lot of times a default response is actually anger yeah yeah you know and repulsion and retribution and revenge and things like this uh and i think this is might be the the pull of shaytan as they would say yeah yeah that you have some like negative polarity pulling on you which is like certainly in islam it's not like this is an even contest though that shaitan is like not as powerful as i love but i know we measure now so allah allows this force to exist from that way of thinking yeah she always had this funny question you know so okay yeah yeah yeah but i think we both agree and this is like the role that sometimes happens like and again the culture like tibet where they go like well that shit's happened it's karma let me take the positive attitude towards this you know that's always good so i mean i don't see any downside of any of that no at all it just poses this weird set of other questions but as far as like like these are all things to do you know you say okay i have this image of compassion whether it's like the divine source of a creator of allah or like a human version of that in a jesus figure let me like think about how i would emulate those qualities i don't that seems healthy psychologically right yeah all right so that's what i have on islam unless there's anything else you thought was important to say no no no the other thing i would probably do for myself is i want to look more into the roomie hafez collection and i have roomies writings on islam not just his poetry and they are interesting but i can't say like i know them as well as maybe i could but i think the other part is that to highlight for folks who are not you know familiar with with some of these other abrahamic traditions is that they're very just like all of the other traditions so you'll have traditionalists right who follow the rules by the blah blah blah and then you'll have your more spiritual side right so these would be in islam these would be like your sufi practitioners who like the buddhists use tons and tons and tons and tons of mantra you know different sources yeah yeah and practice and practice together and it's a different kind of a thing you know so like in the you know you have your your orthodox people then you have your kabbalists they're not the same the same deal no they're not thinking the same deal you know and you do have some i think it's a probably smaller number but they do have christian mystics you know and maybe people think that we did the series on narcissism right those are yes gnostics and maybe even the jesuits to some degree for sure um master uh meister eckhart that we haven't done anything on sometimes yeah right we'll do it you have you have that wing of the of the ideology you have the faith that that's sort of like i don't know for me it's kind of like the churning fire of the faith itself you know if the faith is a hot air balloon you have the structure of the the canopy and the the basket but it's the spiritual part those people who practice and study those things to me that's the fire that's the hot air you know is one of our like uh figures we really love uh bobby t bob thurman he always is making that point too in any tradition you're gonna have your mystic branch and they're gonna be different yeah they're gonna be the outliers right mm-hmm and maybe the outcasts even yeah but from my perspective that they are they keep the faith that's the yeah yeah you know there's something they keep burning which is experiential and deep and internal that might not always be there and other people who are doing this in a different way right yeah i think that's fair to say that's my bobby key point i mean i'm just sort of you know thinking out loud at the moment so i apologize if it's stupid but i would be hard-pressed i'm just running through my mind at the moment it would be hard i'm hard-pressed to think of a faith that doesn't have that that has any sort of focus doesn't have that dichotomy in it right well that doesn't have the the sort of spiritual wing you know yeah that doesn't have to be like that yeah yeah yeah because i don't and i can't think so i mean if our audience is listening if you could bring up if you have an example you know feel free to you know email us ginanton gmail.com or hit us up on instagram you know but i'm having a hard time thinking that and the reason why i say all of that is because to me that is equally if not more important than the structures actually you know yeah i was yeah go ahead and cut you up yeah because that that is kind of like the the way in which things come from that that's like the beginning of the the the manifestation from the sort of infinite through becoming more finite that's the very first place this is sort of indescribable the experiential you're just sort of jumping in the pool not knowing that it's water then we could describe the you know its wetness and its chemical structure and everything else about it but at one point you're like it's cool and liquidy you know like there's gonna be like the mystical side of things and the mystical teachings around something right yeah then you're going to have these other branches that are just going to be um you know uh this other parts ritual and cultural things and things like that i was thinking about this before we did this episode um where i was going you know that is like a big deal in my life where i feel like then people may disagree with this but i feel like then those are kind of like almost like universally within the public domain you know you have things that is universal teachings that you know are uh just human wisdom you know that we all can get access to that are different than what it means to be like you know an orthodox jewish person you know that's not the same deal right the perspectives of the people are going to be different right you know the person who's looking at the kabbalistic teachings and their you know uh you know more of a uh you're a jewish person following other aspects of the jewish tradition not just that one little like not just that one mystical uh part are gonna think about that mystical part differently right those teachings might be like something we can all benefit and relate to and like that's kind of like the major theme of this podcast but that's also a major theme of like my life you know when i went to go like do uh you know traditional chinese medicine and all that i was pretty clear like and i studied with chinese teachers and i got taoist initiations but i was always kind of aware like this is always going to be different for me you know than it would be for someone who you know would be a chinese person and they grew up in that family and all that my take on this is always going to be different but it shows a lot of respect for my side because i think these are really profound things that i want to learn from you know right yeah it's just one of those questions but i feel like those things are like kind of like um uh core sets of ideas techniques and experiences that are kind of like you know like the kind of the root of things that you're talking about yeah that's what we're trying to tap back into yeah yeah um all right so the judaisms unless you know the other thing i was just thinking maybe i would ask you did you did you or your mom feel like there's parts of you know islam uh that are just you know completely misrepresented and badly handled in the culture does that does your mom ever feel that way or she gets kind of upset about it oh yeah for sure okay yeah yeah yeah yeah there's no doubt about that you know i mean scapegoating and obviously there's been as in any as in any culture there's bad actors for sure um and you know there has been it's not a you know part of the you know sort of pc movement has been to kind of clean that up a little bit so that it's not you know whatever especially in the arts i think going there there was this sort of thing of trying to like hostility and all that yeah i'm not eleven but also like let's clean this up and yeah let's clean it up and so that you know that that's the that's it you know from that perspective there's been a positive around that there's not as much you know but we we not we because i don't care but like the society shifts its ire towards different groups you know it as time as time goes on based on who's the current baddie but this is the other ring that this culture does right and it happens in all on all spectrums you know the other ring of the these the madness of the crazy ones of the dark ones of the religious zealots of the poor ones of the rich ones like it's always pitting you against someone else to show discrepancy and how we're together with you you know um yeah yeah and it's it's it's a straw man argument it's dichotomous it's dualistic it's symbolic it's perfectly per like purposely divisive to alienate people from one another in terms of political power and things like that correct and you know look if you're born in a culture you don't know a thing you don't know anything else that's what you know whether it's islam judaism christianity catholic whatever if you're born into it and you're not gonna you're not an outside-the-box kind of thinker you follow the rules and you know you follow momentum and your what your parents parents parents have done you're not gonna question these things you're gonna live within that culture find somebody who believes what you believe marry them indoctrinate your kids and i don't indoctrination has a negative connotation generally speaking i'm just saying you're going to continue you know with what's done for you you know i'm not going to fault all of those people for following along i'm certainly not any better because i decided to go against that you know i just perspective is different you know and once once you have some shift in your understanding on things you can never shift back you cannot unknow you cannot unknow yeah yeah like once the once the the cat is out of the box the cat's out of the box out of the box sorry schrodinger yeah i was going there um i guess the only thing you could say if you want to make a value judgment what you could say is you could be socratic about it and say like if you're not really to ask the questions about your life then that's not as good i mean obviously we're taking that value in this podcast you know you want to make it like socrates we can be all greek about it and say yeah you know the unexamined life is not worth living or something like that yeah on the shower curtain of wisdom i have one from the psychologist uh irving yalum irvin urbanyalum where he's just like uh when people don't when people don't show any interest in self-awareness that's always a bad sign something like that you know so okay that's the attitude we're taking we're making some value judgment so we try to be fair mm-hmm yeah that's the value judgment so you know you can kind of make it like it's not to be judgey but it is come to you and say like well if you're not going to question what's what's the point of this i agree you know then you will just kind of like just cool a drink which could be dangerous right yeah okay so do you think it was a fair version of the way we talked about islam does that seem fair to your understanding of it yeah i think so i mean to my beginning i'm not a i'm not i know you're not like uh yeah yeah i mean i've studied that i studied in i took a uh like a graduate level course on uh history of the caliphates which was a very interesting class yeah the development of the islamic state not not isis or isil as it is today but the actual caliphate you know yeah um but it wasn't necessarily like religious in its studies you know it was taken i took it you know second like your your mom identifies as muslim for sure for sure yeah for sure so you've been exposed to it so you guys oh yeah yeah i mean i've been to to mosque i don't know 30 40 times in my lifetime and you know so yeah and i love the i love the way that it sounds the prayers they sound uh sufi's practice what is called zikr it's it's uh translated as remembrance and so you repeat the 99 names of god 99 times to help you to remember and you're remembering and she talked about this on her on her episode which if you guys haven't heard it uh it's it's good i know it's really good we got a lot of positive feedback on that episode yeah it's very it's a very moving story very touching very sincere very authentic yeah yeah very all that stuff yeah right from here but um the sufi's practice zika and it's a practice of remembrance and it's remembering your union with with god with the creator you know and having done it it's a wonderful thing you know really really is there it's a non-violence i mean i know again like in different ways i've done the same thing where you like uh you meditate on the names of the divine and stuff like that yes meditations they're powerful yeah i mean i mean something like you know we've been doing meditations periodically here we probably could do more but just like doing those meditations there's something that happens it's a very powerful experience without a doubt it's not a joke it's for reals and so it's beautiful and this you know these don't this doesn't get shared you know that's true i mean that's part of the gripe of the show if you could if you could extract the the experiential wisdom technology aspects no technology bobby t sometimes use that word no no other these things there's just so much we could learn from all of these things i mean obviously that's like one of the underlying themes of this whole thing right trying to well that's but if you if you really intellectual meditative technology that's correct and because if you talk to and we have you know you talk to buddhist or tantric or vedic or hindu yogic people they you they will regularly say that human beings are the most advanced machine on the planet by far you know and that we have untapped technology it is the software is untapped human potential is truly full human potential is truly untapped and they have sort of i don't want to belittle the practices but you know software hacks you know and try and you know develop develop the software in such a way that you can transcend beyond the normal you know transcend beyond the average worker you know whether you're talking about chakras or naughties or acupuncture channels or the energy systems nervous system i mean these are just theories you know but what we're talking about is software sometimes in daoism they'll talk about like the brain and like you get the vibe that the metaphor is that that's like a whole universe in there you have like all of these neurons which are like as numerous as the stars spread out in a galaxy right and they're all sitting there and it's like you have your own universe inside you and we just it hasn't been fully explored correct it hasn't been fully explored what the power in these things are yeah all right so that's what we're trying to do it's like a little ambitious but that's what we're trying to do okay um but like what else you got going on in your life you know might as well do this might as well it's a good time what'd you say the unexamined life is not one worth living it's not one worth living yeah but it's a good time some of the best times you're going to have you know oh i you can you can even do it when you're having sex you can yeah explore the cosmos you know you can get your brain to go and all of a sudden you're like wow the whole cosmos has opened up you know double double organization there it is yeah so i mean what better time are you going to have really honestly you know you could sit and like binge watch netflix or you could let your brain orgasmically explode and like see visions of the universe which way do you want to roll come on seriously all right in any case talking about judaism [Laughter] yeah perfect g and c trent g and t transition unless you got something else you want to say about that daniel you want to cut that thing i mean you know there's so we can go on i mean that that you know that's the eastern tradition all of them are that's the part that makes me like and yeah like western too the kabbalists the sufis [...] like that right yeah right it's all over the world it's all about this is all over the world it's all over the world people want to know what's going on inside yeah mac maybe but you know that's it yeah if you figure out what's going on all of the real people do there are people who want to do this yeah yeah all the world are people want to do this and i think like i mean maybe the gist here this is what the jin and tantra metaphor is if you get a taste take a sip take a sip you know you might like it drink the spirits you might like how it feels let's try it yeah all right so well we know where we're coming from so all right so the judaism thing what's the what's the suffering there and guess what we're back to this garden again where some people listen to a snake that they shouldn't have okay but the thing they're trying to make in judaism which is kind of like interesting and i i don't know if they always do this it's kind of interesting but you can get this conversation about like this is now an internalized force or something so the shaytan or the seitan is not necessarily something external it's also like an internalized thing i mean sometimes it talks about it it's external but sometimes it's also like being acknowledged that's internal and as i was again doing my little research around this because i want to do honest presentations they did put a more of an emphasis here on the internal staton that's what you're kind of dealing with because this got internalized and there might even be like a theology that had happened when the apple wasn't originally crunched or something something happened it got internalized so you can make that what you want but it's saying something right so you're kind of resisting something inside yourself which is what you were talking about with your own emotions and the negative aspects of your own responses that all seems like could be good and almost all the traditions they they talk about overcoming you know unconscious forces yeah for sure all of them really yeah developing willpower as a means to transcendence actually well you need some kind of willpower yeah you do need which is how you learn how to exercise free will which is the next point on this thing on this like this outline but it's free will but you need to have willpower in order to exercise your free will otherwise maybe you just get like you were saying carry it along yeah yeah whatever the momentum is of the situation or the moment of your own emotions and your own thoughts on the things are your internal world will just carry you with a certain momentum yeah and in chemistry they have what's called like energy of activation which is the the first step of a chemical reaction right and so what's the amount of energy that has to be produ it has to be present in order for this reaction to occur right and i think that the the building up of of one's willpower is sort of like a development of that your own strength in order to make that energy of activation occur you know and then if you get help from the outside world then maybe that maybe that energy of activation that that barrier right lowers even a little bit more so that you can kind of find your way through but unfortunately as you know you and i both know life is difficult and you have to constantly build this will thing like it's a constant you know from a chinese medical perspective this is the kind of the water element the kidneys the young the you know your own sort of essence that you have to consistently develop and you may it may be strong for a certain time but then based on life or what you know whatever it'll wear out it'll wear you out and then you don't have it and it can go away so these things you know we talk i talk about this in the shamanic course that i teach like if you lose some ability in your lifetime you know like if you were a very heavy dreamer and then all of a sudden your dreams just stopped you will feel like a different person you're not you know something feels it's like it's like you're missing a part of yourself and you have to kind of go back i've you know maybe you know certainly you could i'd like to hear if you had this experience but i've treated a number of patients over the years and that's one of the things that they when they get their dreams back there's just a huge smile on their face you know it's like they've been been given another life almost you know or like uh when people are able to see their dreams with the clarity that they weren't able to see them before and they can feel the inspiration i guess in chinese medicine you say that that's like the hun acting right it's an aspect of the psyche or even that you'd say the spirit of the person the soul of the person that like is um uh yeah it's like um it's associated with sometimes with dreaming especially dreams that have meaning to them in the chinese medical world in the taoist world right where the dreams are meaningful and you not just like you know there's rando dreams that you're like well that didn't seem like that was that great but there are dreams where you're like well that seems like something's being said there that's like the hun speaking yeah yeah which is i know yeah yeah no i just say after the watermelon is the water element is the wood element you know so that's right yeah you know what i'm saying so so building up so this hon thing is associated with the liver but the liver is associated with the wood element in chinese medical thought yeah yeah and it's also associated with the eyes yeah you can kind of see things you can kind of see things in your dream you can see things more clearly in your life it's like a metaphor of like you see in the world around you through your eyes but you can kind of look and see in like in your life overall see the vision of where you want your life to go vision like through the power of this aspect of your internal being yeah this hun thing this aspect of your spirit and the the fortitude to act up to act on upon these visions is your you know manifest is the will is the will the will right and that's your backside that's the spine that's what you know the all the yogis and the the buddhist stuff that's what they talk about is the activation of that you know the the channels along the spine to kind of like wake you up you know this is like you know if we go back like some episodes before we were talking about um hakun's meditation of like uh building up young yes right that's healing the body but also builds will so then when you get that will you're able to exert that within your life mm-hmm right giving credit to friend of the show and my personal friend justin key he likes this metaphor he's been using it and it's a good one it's similar to your energy of activate activation he would talk about like potential wells people can find themselves in the potential well you're just stuck in this well yeah if you imagine then you just can't get out of it yeah you know i'm kind of holding my hands to the camera here trying to illustrate it if you're just listening to the thing but you know you're stuck in this well you need a certain energy of activation to get you out of this well yeah like a literal well yeah like a well like stuck in a pitch or something yeah yeah yeah yeah like you're stuck in the pit and people can get like stuck in a pit in their lives and they're stuck there right and it takes a lot of energy to burst out of that pit but what they try to do in certainly zen uh uh taoism they do it in buddhist tantra and other traditions in their own way too right but you're trying to build this energy of activation in chinese medicine say your internal young which what you're saying daniel feeds your will right feeds this will it allows you to kind of burst out what the energy of activation you're talking about out of this potential wealth right justin's metaphor right you know you kind of gives you the shot to break out of that thing but if you don't the energy to do it you're stuck in the well right yeah that's it so the hawkway meditation if you if people are interested if you haven't heard it you can go back and kind of just you know great zen master and he has a way of trying to do this with some visualizations and things like that or you're trying to build up a certain kind of will and that's what will push you through and he says that's what will help you like understand a lot of the complexities and the zen riddles and mysteries of life because you have the will to confront them and you have to kind of drive through to look for your solutions and the will is what is going to keep you following along with you know god's quote-unquote will in terms of all the the laws and the rules in judaism in islam those two in particular have moral rules and catholicism as well you know but that's the will that keeps you on this you know straight and narrow if you if you will want to use that announcement or or the crooked and interesting yeah well depending on which side of the equation you're pushing right that's where you want to go maybe you want to walk the crooked and interesting totally fine but you still need some will you still need will either anyway you're going to need some will right to do the crooked interest that's right yeah i mean what do you think like do we have time to talk about some of the judaism thing you want to do it or you want to like yeah i got about 10 minutes so let's okay okay let's do okay so all right yeah we started in it so you're gonna need free will right that's that's what we're talking about yeah and um so from a big picture perspective then in you know jewish thought you can get this idea that you have like the other side so uh the divine has to like have what it wants you to do what you're talking about the will of allah or like the rules that you should follow or whatever right however you want to think about that but you also need other options so that necessitates the idea that there's going to have to be like choices that aren't good or choices that are outside the will of the divine so you have the free will to choose otherwise you wouldn't have any free will if the only options you could choose was the will of allah then you don't really have any free will but they kind of make the point in the in jewish thought which i don't you don't hear this a lot in catholicism they don't make this point this way this is different to my ears right if you feel this way but there has to be other options there that are like sub-optimal and not the will of allah otherwise you really wouldn't have free will so they make this point right uh and so therefore there's a choice to like violate the commandments or like dissipate disobey the divine which can lead to suffering which you'll get feedback on because you suffer and you're supposed to recognize this and learn but there has to be this option over there to do this and like it's interesting you don't hear that too much even in the kabbalah they say there's almost like the tree of life but there's also another tree that you could follow that like is just different you know that will you know lead you some other way but the option has to be there otherwise it's like otherwise to say you have free will is like not real because there wouldn't be other wouldn't be any other choices like that's interesting you know when i heard that for the first time you're coming from my like more catholic background i was like i can't remember everyone anyone ever saying that to me you know and so it's you know it's a way of thinking about you know if you do have a divine force that is you know omniscient omnipotent all-powerful and benevolent this is like an explanation as to why this would be the way it is to open up that space for people to have free will i mean what do you think about that did you ever have you heard anything like that i i didn't do anything like that no and the catholicism i studied it's always like you don't want to go that way because it's bad okay but like there's this idea like you know there's these choices have to be there otherwise free will would be a folly right you know it wouldn't be like a real thing and then you get the feedback loop as a living being now with free will that you get to explore your world and then describe feedback like well that turned out shitty so i probably shouldn't do that right so you're supposed to learn well that's interesting that's a little bit different right and so you get the idea like okay you might be in situations where it's it's like it's a punishment because you did something like you got a little zapped right or it's a test or a thing to develop empathy like the same ideas are there but it's in this different kind of way of framing it right and with the idea i guess you get this in all the three the big three but it can bring you closer to uh to the divine source too because you know you suffer and you turn to the divine so that's talked about right right or you see suffering in others you want to help and you can you can kind of like emulate the divine so it sort of has this it's a different way of thinking about like the functionality behind it right you know i mean um so even though it may be a mystery and not always clear you can still operate in any of these traditions within the framework of like i'm trying to develop compassion i'm trying to like learn how i should do things differently i'm trying to develop like uh you know uh perseverance will i'm trying to develop trust and faith that there's going to be a meeting for these things those all seem kind of positive right yeah okay one of the things i promised last time was we're going to have like uh story time ah yeah joseph campbell story time maybe this would be a good place to end so this is the story you want to do it here you want me to save it for next no no do it do it now so this is the story of rabbi uh uh uh eliza right and uh i'll tell the tale and then we'll get your reaction daniel okay so what we talked about last episode is that you do get this part of like jewish tradition where they'll debate with the divine which is very interesting you know and bobby t had talked about it in our episode robert barbara thurman had talked about our episodes together true that he loved this part of judaism because they argue and he likes to argue clearly so uh he likes to argue and debate so here's the tale and if i pronounce things wrong i pronounce them wrong um okay it's the rabbis and they're having this debate over whether or not a certain kind of oven is proper ritual [Laughter] within like the ritual purity things around food so debating this point which obviously is quite abstract so they have like an oven that consists of tiles that are separated from one another by sand but externally plastered over by cement is this still like kosher it's the debate which already strikes me as amusing somehow i don't know it's like abstract but they're debating this out and the rabbis debate and rabbi eliza argues that the oven is ritually pure and it's fine and the other rabbis especially this one particular rabbi uh gamayal i guess gamalo i'm sure i'm not pronouncing that right they argue that the oven is impure so i heard this story you know and i was like i didn't know the name of the rabbis involved which i thought rabbi akiva was involved in this he comes up later on in the story anyways rabbi eliza is pretty adamant about this that this oven is fine so he says if if my opinion is correct then the carob tree will prove it and then the carob tree like leaps from the ground and like moves away and the other rabbis argue that carob tree has nothing to do with this law it's just a carib tree and so it offers no proof in our debate over the law and so rabbi elizer gets more upset and he says if my opinion is occurred the stream will prove it and the stream begins to flow backwards but again the rabbits point out that stream like has no opinion about this law and even this stream doing this weird thing doesn't have anything to do with this law so the rabbi elizer says well if this my opinion is correct then the walls of the study hall will prove it and the walls begin to fall in and but then they're scolded by one of the rabbis who reminds the walls that they're interfering with debate so the walls freeze but they freeze in the in between position the way the story goes they're showing respect to both the rabbis because they did start falling in right to acknowledge like oh rabbit eliza is right but they don't go all the way back you know they stop so they're kind of the walls are like like showing respect for both people in the debate so this rabbi eliza is really frustrated at this point in the story so he says if my opinion is is right heaven will prove it and a voice like comes down from heaven saying why are you differing from rabbi elizer his opinion is correct and in every place that he correct he expresses opinions he's always right why are you debating him and the rabbi uh joshua responds uh the the torah is not in heaven the torah is on earth and it's up to us to debate you gave us this thing we're here to interpret it and uh we're interpreting it and it's none of your business kind of a response uh uh so you know that's what it is then they're arguing and debating and they basically the way they win the debate is to go to the divine you know to god you gave us the torah it's up to us to analyze it we've analyzed it so the tree and the walls and the stream and you have nothing to do with this it's up to us to analyze this thing and uh uh i think that summarizes the response here right i think even the torah speaks and says like uh you know if i'm not in heaven so you know that's how it is and then there's a kind of an after story where they excommunicate rabbi elizer in the in the after story for disagreeing and there's a really famous rabbi namabi akiva he's kind of one of the ones i really uh uh appreciate as a figure in jewish thoughts and connect to the kabbalah because he's the one who the way the tradition goes got the song of songs put into the into the bible into the tradition like he got the song of songs in there and it's that very kind of erotic stuff you know like he gets that kabbalistic erotic part in there and so it's rebeca who goes to rabbi elizer and said well you know they gave you the boot sorry you're kicked out and rabbi elizer gets really upset and he begins to cry and uh uh and the tradition said something like he had the power to destroy the whole world yet due to the respectful manner in which he was ostracized only the third of the world's crops were destroyed oh nice good and the story ends when um uh he's given this news and the main rabbi who had him expelled gets retribution he's out in this he's out in a boat and he's stuck in a storm you know kind of like a jungle in the whale thing if you know that story right so he's out in the storm and the rabbi this rabbi is being tossed around and he says master of the universe is revealed and known before you that neither was it for my honor that i acted when ostracizing him nor was it for the honor of the house of my father that i acted rather it was for your honor so disputes will not proliferate in israel and as with these words the storm is calmed so the point i guess they're making in the end is something like we have to as human beings be able to resolve our disputes for ourselves right using our own human and our own understanding um and then ultimately the story continues on and you know it because it becomes kind of like a teaching story in on the one hand the one side's partially right in the way the story is thought of because they have to go through and decide in a human way how to interpret the the the laws that were given to them by the teachings that were given to them like they have to be able to do that on the other hand it's also considered to be a story where they act too harsh to rabbi allies or kick him out at the end so it's a teaching story on both sides this is the story of the oven of uh achnai hopefully i'm pronouncing that right you know eventually rabbi elizer's wife sort of has the last word in it she says uh the tradition that i receive from the house of my father and his father are all the gates of heaven are apt to be locked except for the gates of prayer for victims of verbal mistreatment so in the end if you're verbally mistreated and the story goes uh his you know uh uh oh no it's actually the wife of the rabbi oh no it's actually the wife of rabbi elizer talks about this you know anyways that's the end of the story that's my joseph campbell moment scene but you know it's an interesting story you know and it's one of the ones where they debate you know and they basically kind of argue well no we're gonna we're going to decide this within our human realm but i was thinking about you and telling it though what's interesting about it is all the signs and indications tell everybody that rabbi elizer is right so that means something for our show too and that like you know you would think that you would accept the carob tree walking around and the stream and the walls coming in and the voice from heaven so i know it's an interesting story for our show yeah i know what i think it means maybe we'll like contemplate for a week and come back next week and think about it but you got i was i was thinking about daniel you daniel not biblical daniel daniel you i was like oh daniel's gonna have a weird response to the story because on the one hand they argue with the divine which is interesting but on the other hand they ignore all the signs and all that whatever which is going to be like i thought daniel's response of this is going to be kind of curious seems typical it seems typical human beings that's right just ignore all the dictates of the divine screaming at you yes completely typical but they also have their weird points and that they're going like well listen you know if you're going to give us independence and free will on the line let us do it right you know don't go like interfering you say i know i didn't learn that in catholicism not not a standard point not a standard point all right well we had our joseph campbell moment we did the next week we got on the docket suffering in biological materials and secular humanism yeah probably we'll talk about daoism and now crap on society for a while again which i love to do so i'm looking forward to it yeah daniel oh you're welcome thanks daniel for thanks in advance for giving me the opportunity to do this next week that's all i you know that's what i'm here for tolerating that part of my personality but i resisted it for several episodes congratulations i'll send you a small trophy in the mail since i'm not addicted to it well uh as always eric thank you for you know continuing our journey together uh thank you the audience for listening for watching uh for sharing if you have some you know questions comments concerns desires for the show things like maybe just to cover whatnot uh please feel free to email us at jin and tantra all spelled out jin and tantra at gmail.com you can hit us up on instagram at jin and tantra or watch some of the youtubes on uh jin and tantra podcast on on youtube always happy to do it yeah always have enjoyable as always thank you absolutely for eric this is dan thank you thank you everyone too yeah thanks so much for eric this is daniel we'll catch you guys in the next one peace