[Music] a g and tear doph of psyr spirituality with a Twist so we're doing obstacle number five we're doing the Deep dive into obstacle number five which is dealing with the problems of the mind that inflicts suffering on itself for something uh but what it really kind of ended up being and this is our working towards our project of uh things that could [...] up your life right uh really talking about how do you handle this right not to just leave it as an observation like hey the Mind does things to mess up the mind or mess up the person but go through and actually talk about like what would you do about that it started this exploration and and you were saying last time Daniel this is something you've been waiting to do for a long time to go through and really kind of have this conversation right yeah yeah you're fascinated about this idea of like you know the different like kind of techniques around this so got a couple episodes last one was really about the idea of Mantra yeah in like more like the way we probably would normally think about Mantra like a series of syllables that you say right but you did bring up the idea of like the meaning of Mantra is mind protection right this notion and it kind of naturally kind of leads into the next idea which is talking about aspects of like tonric meditation for maybe like me and for you maybe like certainly for me my home base would be sort of like in Buddhist Tantra so that's kind of one that we're focusing on here um and then specifically this idea of like this thing called the yidam so do you want to take a tumble at to finding that or do you want me to do it you brought it up so I'll pass the Baton back all right so the Y is one of the more more like interesting things I know when I first heard about it I was like okay how do I think about this what am I supposed to think of what this thing means right like what is a so on the one hand it's kind of like um they'll sometimes call it like meditating on yourself as a deity too and this is where you get to some of this Buddhist iconography of the Goddess Tara or mandre Shri or some of the highest yoga Tantra figures have these ideas of different levels of Tantra right so some of the ones that are more common maybe aren't like the more secret on the QT highest ones but then you get the things like yamantaka or Shakra our K chakra and they're like these Divine iconographies and it's interesting to say what they really kind of represent and the way they kind of represent like the enlightened state right and they have all kinds of symbolism within them that tries to capture different aspects of what it feels like or what it means or talents and abilities of being enlightened so they look like they have like all kinds of arms and legs and heads and all this other stuff but each of those things are supposed to be symbolic of some Talent OR aspect some feature of like ultimate enlightened State and again that's very interesting right just the way that whole thing works right I think if we you know we did our stuff on Yung and you might say they're archetypal on some level and I suppose if you're a union you would kind of like make a point that they're archetypes but I think you know the the deeper ideas not just to say that they're an archetype but to say that they're enlightened forms or something right they're images of Enlightenment that you meditate on yeah and so when you go through so you got like okay I want to go through and I want to like do do Tantra or do buddist Tantra so what would happen was you'd go and you get some kind of empowerment especially with these things that are a little bit more advanced the highest yoga ones and you know part of the daily meditation is to kind of convert yourself into this Divine figure you meditate on yourself as this Divine figure and the Don Lama talks about that and he basically says what you're doing every day then is you're practicing your own Enlightenment your own Enlightenment process so you go through and you do a series of meditations where you kind of reach back and you tap into the deepest part of your being your clear light mind of bliss your Buddha nature your Ruan Chen if you want to be a little DST about it or whatever and then you emerge out not as like say Eric or Daniel or whoever you are but but you emerge out as Tara or mandri or abigal tesara or you know yamantaka if you're doing High yoga Tantra and you have that initiation or Shakra Sara the wheel of bliss or car Shak kala Shakra The Wheel of Time or whoever you're into you know what I mean and so that's kind of how it works and I thought that was it took me a while to kind of figure that part out when I first got one of these it was a little bit spontaneous for me I don't I mean I knew something about it but it came up as an off offering a possibility there was a student who said that one was going to happen and I was like well okay uh if I'm ever going to do this I might well do this now this opportunity just fell in my lap so I took it totally not understanding maybe what it would mean as far as a daily practice or what all those kinds of things would be about and when I got to the Dal Lama kind of explained like what you're really doing is you're rehearsing that meditation is your rehearsal of your Enlightenment and every day you do it right and so it's a way of kind of like thinking about what the end state will be but it's also as you go along you get closer and closer in your qualities to the enlightened qualities that are represented by this Edom because you're constantly kind of contemplating them and meditating them and and transforming them that's kind of the idea you got something else you want to I mean there's more to say about that yeah but uh anything in the immediate Daniel I kind of did a little bit of it you want to pick up and throw in there what you think is important too yeah I mean so it it it is those things but I think it could be and you know we're we're kind of inclusive of O of other practices as well it could be any aspect of the Enlightenment form that you feel is an an enlightened form right so if that's Jesus or what you know the problem is the the problem and the benefit I don't know it's a little bit weird is the personification you know and I talked last week about de anthropomorphizing the deities you know or some of the yams right but the on the other you know in in in human body form that is kind of shunned as a general practice to see yourself as someone else we could emulate right you can be like Mike right remember that that advertising Michael Jordan thing yeah right right that's probably dating myself a little bit you know kid of the 90s but that's all good yeah um but they never say be Mike you know what I'm saying like that's yeah yeah right you know what I'm saying like you ask yourself like what would Jesus do that was a popular thing for a little while they would put that on little wristbands wwjd you know yeah necklaces um but the they didn't ask the question what did Jesus do so you know what I'm saying like it's a little bit of a difference so you're not exactly able to imagine yourself as another person because then you'll think of uh Persona personified right you'll think of them as a person and not as like an embodiment of the enlightened form so it makes it a little bit difficult Translating that into to humans but essentially anything that you like you could emulate that as a you know whatever you're you're visualizing as an abstract for enlightenment with those abilities like you were saying those like special powers if you will so like I think what you're trying to do is you're trying to make it like okay there's this very specific Buddhist tantric way of doing this but if we generalize it out you can take it and be other things too I can imagine like myself as St Francis of Ace or something like that right I can myself as whatever yes right yes yeah and you're doing it as a doorway to tap into that enlightened form and if I can go maybe a little bit even further you see it's it's also rehearsing yourself seeing you as something other than you right yeah that's true which which loosens your grip on yourself you know because we're so used to seeing ourselves as ourselves that we're very attached to that thing you know yeah but at but but seeing yourself as something else in my opinion connects you to other things because now you can identify yourself as something else even if if that thing is you know shamanic in nature right I'm thinking of all the different you know visualizations that people have of themselves flying like a eagle or walking like a bear or running like a tiger or a panther or a leopard or whatever you know you in those moments you feel as if you are one of those animals like it's there is no separation between you and them and I think that you know there's many other things that that that does to change your perspective but in the immediate sense again Capricorn uh Eric if you want to show us your mug on on screen Eric has a Capricorn mug which is always interesting because you know that's there we are um but it does I think it helps to loosen your your the hold of that that your mind has on this temporary localized phenomenon as our beloved llama Glenn likes to call us and everybody Ian I almost want to like get back to that because I'm thinking about that in a really deep way but maybe we'll flesh out some of what this is supposed to do in terms of helping you deal with the emotions that are difficult or something right which is part of the theme of the deal right yeah okay so it's really funny or interesting funny is you know when the Daly Lama talks so first of all the thing that stuck me is the Dal Lama explain like what is this about and the idea is that you're rehearsing kind of an Enlightenment process right and that also can relate to kind of things that you're talking about too I can let let go of aspects of myself and embody the quality of eagle or bear or wolf or something like that right yeah yeah yeah so and there's a like a I think that's part of it right to do this it's also this reheal part so that struck me really deep and then the other thing was when he talks about you mentioned this last week you know which is really great that you did what does Mantra mean right because sometimes I'll call this whole set of practices like secret Mantra right and Mantra doesn't just mean like the syllables like when you take it apart one of the interpretations is like mind protection right right to protect the mind and so when the Dal Lama talks about you know you start entering a practice what's your commitments on the practice right sometimes when you do a ritual like this they'll say okay here's the commitments but the Dal Lama says when you boil all down really there's only like really one big commitment right and the one big commitment is to overcome mundane conceptions right and mundane appearances and to replace them with extraordinary or you might say Divine uh conception and appearances like that's the one that's the one thing you know and I thought that was really striking when he said that because sometimes when you you get involved in these kinds of practices you start doing rituals you can think well there's all kinds of rituals to do that responsibility to do yeah that's a common not fault but a a common description you know I've read in books that they said oh that I want to go see the the Tibetan Buddhists and they did all these rituals and then I went to go see this one and they did this you know they performed healing and you know but it gets a cribed to the Tibetan Buddhist for sure is the the high amount of ritual yes yes yes but what's cool is he boils it down and says like well you really boil it down like when you enter into the tonas this is the main thing you're taking you're you're doing right overcoming mundane conceptions and mundane comp appearances and that has a lot to do with what you were talking about this idea of thinking of yourself as kind of like a mundane thing right thinking myself as Eric or you're thinking of yourself as Daniel or whatever it is right you know then you have the that's the mundane version of ourselves or something and you don't want to be like overly amhed or overly absorbed in those things and basically in the Tes them what they're saying is that that's like the main obstacle that's like the main problem if you want to boil it down that's the thing that will like if you want to look at what's going to [...] up your life that'll probably [...] up your life the most right going through and attaching to mundane ideas and mundane conceptions about things that's going to screw you up the most right so in the Yen practice they kind of give you this thing where you're supposed to go through I mean it's a shamanic culture too so it makes sense right right totally where you're like getting in and you're kind of reframing yourself exploring what it means to go to the deepest parts of who you are the clear light L mind part of who you are right the formless part of who you are and then having the form part of yourself manifest out as this yum thing right and then you kind of change your object of identification if you do it serious to this more uh enlightened version of yourself right popping out and then you replace the mundane thing with the extraordinary thing right if the word divine doesn't work I could see that too Divine pride and appearances bu conceptions appearance some people might feel a little bit like that word makes me uncomfortable right sure yeah maybe it's enlightened or maybe it's extraordinary right so you place replace the mundane with the extraordinary right and so you know that's the that's that's the move right and then in the process what I agree with you totally Daniel what happens then is you kind of break some of the power of that mundane way of thinking about yourself gets a little bit broken each time a little bit or something right the question stretched a little time the question though and maybe this is just uh psychological in nature I'm not sure how many people view themselves simply as mundane I you know like I feel like a healthy psyche and I'm not talking about an unhealthy psyche person that is definitely deep into like a depression or delusion or something like this I mean arguably we all have our own delusions but like a person with a healthy ego well we would what society would consider a healthy ego and a you know stable psyche I feel like they fancy themselves quite unique quite individual quite uh special maybe not an outward sense but inward we think were quite great individually and when you get the opportunity to experience something else that uniqueness is equally as great so you might do you know what I'm saying it's a kind of a interesting question I think you I think you feel this way about American society and American folks in a different way than I feel like that's a western that's def I think Americans think of themselves is pretty mediocre okay okay and pretty bad you know uh so let me do the Llama yes thing because it's interesting let me see your reaction okay okay yeah because it does talk about he gets hits on what you're talking about so llama yes we haven't talked about him as much he's another one of these sort of Tibetan Buddhist teachers uh he WR wrote this great book called introduction to Tantra so if you need like a kind of a book that you might want to say oh this is interesting what could I read more about this he's it's a good one that's a different one but like yeah that's not his that's the other guy's I forget the name of that that's one of the uh Tashi that's yeah searing yeah Tashi searing yeah yeah yeah uh no he's like solam yes wrote this book called introduction the time oh it's a blue cover with the yeah I have that one they're both good books right yeah yeah I like that I like the one e too because that's it's part of a whole series I used that when I was first really trying to learn this stuff very seriously I thought he does a great job of taking these things apart right yeah yeah yeah um Bo I'm forgetting the degree what they call it but he I think has one of those 18year degrees that people in Tibet can get where they study all the philosophy oh um yeah yeah yeah [...] I can't remember the name of it but it'll hit me it'll hit one of or the other of us at some point right yes ah [...] sometimes you forget like I forgot the other day like the OM myti pad May hung you know I forgot like it's the jewel flower thing and I was like what what do those words mean again sometimes you forget In the Heat of the Moment when we're doing this podcast um and I felt a little embarrassed afterwards I couldn't come up with it in the moment you're looking it up anyways I'll do the L thing you so like he talks about this and you know he was a guy who came from Tibet and started working with Western people and he basically says you know if you look at it when you look at like what he calls the so-called realistic mind the mind that people have he says when you poke underneath it in people's realistic Minds their mundane conceptions and appearances of themselves they think of themselves is pretty bad and in general his observation was that most people had pretty low self-esteem and self-esteem this low self-esteem plagues people and he says this is kind of like a ubiquitous feature regardless of you know and he goes on to say regardless of your religious or philosophical beliefs people tend to think this way when you poke underneath they feel like really kind of crappy about themselves and their opinions of themselves are really pretty low and this is why people have so many like psychological problems from his perspective right because their opinions themselves when you really poke in them they might have inflated versions of themselves that are compensatory or something like that right yeah but when you poke underneath people probably feel pretty crappy about themselves and he says you know this is this this is the strong deluded self-defeating View and these kind of self-pitying Concepts he says he uses this kind of language right ping Concepts low self-esteem lowo diluted self visions of who you are right and that underneath this is how people feel they feel themselves to be pretty bad pretty pretty mediocre and they have hold a pretty low opinion of themselves and he basically says like you know that and I I guess he's talking about Western people and I suppose in a certain sense that Vibes with how I see Western people I don't see them as looking at themselves as being all unique and wonderful I tend of see them as thinking themselves as pretty pretty lame you know and um with all kinds of like problems of self-esteem and depression and anxieties and you know a whole slew of other kind of things like this we might have a different view you know what I mean yeah no I mean I think generally I I would probably agree with what you're were saying you know yeah and like and so and then like very limited ideas of what they think is possible you know sounds pretty bad I mean he calls it I'm like yeah it seems true seems true he hits it really hard like he doesn't go I mean I was doing some research on this for somebody and um he hits it pretty hard like he doesn't uh he doesn't softball it you know he talks about it he pops right and he says okay here's the issue you know I'm gonna call it for you there's this very limited perspective on who you are what's possible and probably real problems of a sense of like low sense of yourself right that makes you feel very limited anxious depressed defeated afraid he just calls it that way you know and so then he says well this inner thing is what has to be transformed on the one hand he says everyone has that deep Buddha nature the formless clear light Bliss part of yourself you know that you can kind of get to a meditation in the samade states right where everything kind of Falls away and you just feel yourself as this kind of blissful clean light feeling or something you know I think a lot of people who meditate hit that thing at some point or another right maybe you don't have a word for it right but you hit it so you know he says everyone has that that Buddha nature thing so that's kind of a basis but then also when you he says like the fascinating point he tries to say is when you emanate out in some more extraordinary form like aara or a mandri or if you want to get into the highest yantas a yamantaka or chakra Sara vaj oini these kinds of figures right when you're doing that you're you're doing this exercise of transforming this sense of yourself right and he says this amazing thing Daniel I'll bounce it off of you and then I'm curious what you think about it because he says he says when you're emanating as a deity or you know a Buddhist enlightened figure he says and open up a little bit emanating as a deity make that a little bit more clear for people Eric because I don't I don't I mean well I mean like to be honest if you get a high conser thing you do a ritual and it's partially an invocation so it's ritual magic and shamanic too right sure when you go through you take yourself like apart you go to the root of who you are and instead of coming back as Eric or Daniel whoever you are you imagine yourself coming back as this Divine figure yeah yeah and then a moment in the thing where you invoke and so it's sort of like you imagine like any kind of ritual like this right know you like you were talking about the shaman who tries to connect to the energy of bear or wolf yeah yeah whoever it is jaguar or you know you're you're feeling that energy and you're invoking it into you so that you imagine yourself rem manifesting or emanating out as this Divine form as opposed to the mundane person of Eric or whoever you happen to be right that's the emanation idea so quick so we didn't plan on this but we'll we'll do it so they at least from my shamanic practice which is you know 12 years running those those an when when you first engage with those animals they they come to you you know what I'm saying like unless you're in a lineage or or something that where where it's like we work we're Eagle people we work with eagle like that's what we work with for the most part though from what I've seen in terms of like Western contemporary shamanic practice which is what I have to be in because I'm a western contemporary shamanic practitioner from all the students that I've seen all the years and all the story that I've heard it the they come to you those those spirits come to you they sort of arise out of where they are you know arise from and then they they make themselves um known and visible and then they them and you come together and once you have a relationship then you can kind of call upon those you know those Spirits if you will you know and from my experience with the Tibetan you know empowerments you I mean maybe I could say that they're calling to you like if somebody is listening to this and they go yeah maybe this sounds interesting you know maybe I want to check out one of these empowerments as they come I guess maybe that's that that emanation that deity that practice calling to that person and pulling them in um and it's our illusion of free will that we go and choose it you know what I'm saying but maybe I answered my own question now for me like all I can say from my own personal experience the first time this popped up as a thing where it was really an opportunity to do it it was one of these more highest yoga Tanta things and it specifically had to do with relationship and love and I was like well if I'm ever going to do one of these things this is obviously the part that I'm working on karmically so this is the one for me right yeah and I think they would say that karmically speaking that's how it works you know one of them will pop up as an opportunity and it's the the practice will find the person and vice versa right and that's then maybe what you'll take the step to do it the weird thing about it was this particular practice is also supposed to be what they call the power of magnetizing pulling things towards you that you will need in your life for Spiritual progress right that's one of its special powers too right magnetizing so it was the first one I did and then it had this magnetizing thing and what happened was at that particular thing which I thought was a great experience you know I haven't really had a relationship with that teacher he's from Bhutan and um you know he tra happened to be traveling through and there were people who had put together this event you know but he wasn't someone I had a long-term relationship with but I thought the experience was pretty powerful but what happened was at that same event they said oh there's something else you can go to where you can meet this other guy this French Canadian guy who's gonna do this other thing and I was like oh that what I'm really into what he was teaching and he seemed interesting and that was llama Glenn right right he's one my dearest teachers and spiritual friends so I think that's how it works you know I think the I think that's how they'll talk about it you know the the karmic wheels will turn and the fortunes will shine and you'll cut the connections where the connections kind of appear you know yeah yeah and then you know the the the events will overlap but okay so on the L thing so here's what he says it's it's because we're talking a little bit you know pre-ic off mic right preo on mic about these kinds of questions so he says this thing he makes this fascinating point he says it like super strongly he says emitting as an extraordinary form as an enlightened form or whatever has nothing to do with a particular culture or belief it's nothing to do with that he goes on to say you are already self- emanating you're already self- eminating and Eric or you know a Daniel or whoever you are you're self eminating that you have some conception in your mind of what that is and you're already emanating and you're emanating probably some version of yourself that's way too narrow way too limited which too truncated missing impossibilities way too anxious depressed afraid and so on you're emanating that you're already doing it so don't think you're not emanating you already are is his point right and it's interesting then because he says the point is you're already doing emanating and you're he also talks about the culture and he says you're probably like you're probably already emanating something of your culture so when you when you self emanate he calls it like your self-pity image but he's talking about just a more narrow limited conception of who you are you not think of yourself as being involved with a particular culture you just do it and then he says stop doing this ignorant habit exclamation point stop doing it and then you know when you stop doing that then you can start overcoming the mundane and ordinary ways ofing things I think it's strong and I think it's awesome the way says it but so let me hear your reaction what do you think this um it's interesting because it reminds me of one of those uh quotes from like Alice and Wonderland I think the queen told Alice at one point sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast yeah yeah you know and that like our Poss the possibilities of what we can even imagine get limited as we sink further and further down into whatever kind of hole that we're into or limited belief you know they thought limited beliefs or false beliefs you know and that like when you can take on the perspective or the you know I've even heard I I don't know if it was a Dal Lama or somebody else when they when they said that you when you imagine yourself when you visualize yourself when you emanate as one of these beings or animals or whatever that you're you're changing your nervous system in a way because you're seeing yourself with more than one pair of arms or with a tail or with another eye or with a much larger heart you know what I'm saying that like you're you're changing the way that you relate kind of to yourself and that opens up for possibility and even if someone doesn't even necessarily believe in in these kind of emanations I think it's a worthwhile practice just to change the way that you see yourself the way that you interact with yourself and to open up the possibilities that things are beyond the way that you perceive them to be yeah I had this a former student who sent me something about like she was interested in Neuroscience right went on and get firmer like a education things around this right and uh she sent me meditation research where they just say like well you're changing your brain structure for sure when you do this right yeah you want to get to those kinds of things that was part of what you were saying I know that wasn't to yeah part of it you know so you have to really believe in anything in particular about that you just know that you're doing this and I think one of the things she said originally was like you're she said to me like a little text that said like it's funny because I talked with her today a little bit the text she said like you're thickening your white matter you know and you're like okay you know uh you know that's part of the thing too right you will change the neuro structure by doing this right totally totally that's like kind of sometimes I'm G to think it's like the two-way street of this sometimes we work the body to change the mind but you can work work the mind to change the body you can go either way right this is more of a way of sort of working the mind to work the body I think sometimes in our Chinese traditional Chinese medicine we think working the body to work the mind is a thing right yeah totally but you know this is a little bit different this is more the idea I can't get this thing to do what I want to do here hold on ah crap all right there it is that what you really want to do is you want to work the uh the uh mind to change the body too right which we do yeah yeah [Music] yeah so okay so that's so I mean are you in with what you say what do you think about the cultural thing you're basically eminating a manifestation of your culture too yes unless talk about off mic earlier I if you want to do that or not but that's that's what's happening you're manifesting some cultural version of you right some cultural version what do you mean well he says it like you think you're not emanating from a culture but you are you're emanating an American person oh yeah yeah in terms of American person you're like whatever whatever the limitations of that are you're that right sure yeah right so the onus is on the individual to overcome yeah those limitations which is what we you know we're discussing on a regular basis yeah yeah yeah you you know what I'm say I mean and I know you and I but like on this podcast and you know some moments sometimes you and I are having a conversation we know we're being recorded and then other times like in a moment now I'm speaking to whoever is listening or watching like that is literally the [...] point you know and and I speak bluntly on purpose it is to overcome our own limitations mine included you know my own limitations on me totally 100% most of the time believing that I am a separate being than Eric a completely different person when we talk about it I'm like oh yeah no of course we're in the realm of teachings right now we're in the realm of you know our congregation of our you know we're we're in the the the pulpit you know the gospel Pulpit if you will and so I'm reminded of all the things that I try and embody and yet once we leave here you know when I'm just walking down the street somebody bumps into me you know I'm like hey man what the hell watch where you going you know what I'm saying like it's just it's those but it's those those moments so as we talk about this and you talk about emanation we are embodying of something that we probably are not even fully aware of so instead of just going through the world and being people that we're just being maybe we can enter that consciously enter into that with something that extends Beyond just an American extends Beyond just a man or a woman or a father or a mother or a partner or a European or whatever you know and carry around some of this what they call Divine Pride you know and carry that off of the meditation cushion carry that off of you know outside of your compassionate engagement with your loved ones and extend that in in all directions you know and that is definitely part of what Eric you and I are are doing very mindfully as we are talking about this yeah if Divine doesn't work you can say enlightened sure that works for you better right how about how about improved but why not go for it Go enlightened you know you want to meditate like some mediocre deity like you know 50% better Tara you know there you go that's not B 10% happier Tara I 10% happier yeah that's it right at the margins you know yeah like just like a barely squeaked fast over no I think they wanted to do something extraordinary right yes yeah yeah yeah there's uh okay so as far as like what we're talking about with um you know the mind being difficult and painful stuff right yeah as we talk kind of honest like I got kind of an ass kicking over the last year by anyone's definition I would have to say that would count and as I thought about like you know we started doing these episodes or this one in particular where we started talking about like what do you do when you're getting your ass kicked right and the mind is g to be going through a lot of like turmoil around that so you know I started thinking of like over the years what have I done you know that's what that's where I went with this in the way Daniel you know I started thinking okay what have I done over the years because I've learned different things over the years like when I started doing Zen it was counting your breath and doing these special breathing techniques that built up a lot of like internal what they call internal yang right internal will internal drive that was the technique and that's probably what I was doing if I was getting my ass kicked I was doing that did that help me yeah it did right sure at other times could talk about like doing a mantra right at times you know because I learned some cabala you can meditate on letters right that have certain qualities of energy and maybe we'll do that at some point too right not but you know those are all things I I look back and I thought yeah at different times I did different things from my teacher uh Mr shenl Wang he said you should connect to the true energy of the universe and that's how you'll overcome things you know so I've done different things at different times right but when I when we got to this one that we were going to talk about today I thought this one was kind of important but not my mind a lot because it's one of the most powerful ones actually I found for myself right you might have different experiences but for me I realized this is really strong if I really talk about getting over internally inflicted suffering right this one ended up being like particularly powerful right from my perspective that that was one of the ones that was the most powerful for like eliminating the suffering like of the moment right the mantras do that too in a way but this one's very strong for this right when you kind of go through when you like you say okay I'm gonna and this is the part that kind of bothers me and I want to talk through it because I think it's part of this whole series of episodes right sure definitely interested in your perspective but I realize like okay if I'm getting like I'm going through a hard time and I'm going through a hard time in my way I realize like okay this seems to be the practice that's the most instantly Curative right I I do the thing where you know we each have our own ones that we love I have one of these particular items that I love right that's the one that I most identify with and I manifested that and that's the most powerful thing right and kind of shockingly so it like really takes me out of my own parts of my mind that might be the things that would be causing me difficulties you know in the moment I can do it right then of course I practice it when I'm doing my meditation too like you were talking about last time right and this time too I you practice it but in the moment I can do it right when it's very strong and um so that struck me as kind of like an interesting point of what that means for that to be so strong even in of itself you know what I mean but then it got to like parts that are really kind of deep questions that I thought I would throw out to you and the audience for people to think about right where I started thinking okay what's the total meaning behind that right and I'm really wondering about this Daniel because it goes along with all of these obstacle things for me too to me and we were talking about this off Mike to me when I look at these things they don't have to necessarily be obstacles they could be points of benefit sure but they're listed as obstacles because mostly they're G get [...] up by people most people are gonna screw them up right you start to realize that and it's been like kind of one of the running themes of this whole project even going back over all the years one of my ambitions in this project was to go into to say okay it's a samsaric world but we can go and find our nons samsaric things within the samsaric world and I wanted the podcast to be a lot about that right yeah and I still don't doubt that but what's been interesting if I really look at it honestly and it's a point that I've made before and we've talked about already but to me if I look at it honestly I don't think it's that you you can't blame it on the Universe I think the universe actually gives lots of opportunities for people to do extraordinary things I honestly believe that that's true you know and in a certain sense I think the universe is almost like crying out for us to do this or the enlightened forces of the universe are reaching out to try to you know catch us and say hey do this extraordinary thing you don't have to do this mundane conception appearance thing you don't have to do it I'll help pull you out and the universe will do that but if I'm honest about it and this bothers me a lot because it goes to the theme of this whole podcast for me in a certain sense right and I you know I want to be authentic of what I'm saying and you know we both do if I'm honest about it my feeling is more like yeah the universe does that but in a lot of ways people people are the problem people are very samsaric and the universe will throw them the ball and the person will miss the ball and let it just bounce off their face and that's my honest feeling you know and watching it you know and looking at this over decades I've been like no there's lots of opportunities you know there's always these doors opening to do these things but when push comes to shove I think the Lama yesi thing will happen I think people will do the mundane thing right they'll do the mundane conception the mundane appearance probably because of their own limiting views of who they are what's possible you know uh um their self-pitying minds their deluded self uh defeating beliefs their so-called realistic mind all these phrases he uses I think that's kind of the truth of how it is and I wish the [...] it wasn't like that oh fellow Gan tears I wish I could say something different I want to so badly and I'm still gonna try not giving up fellow G and tears but if I'm honest about it that's what I actually think you know if I'm really really honest and it raises a kind of a weird question I me something you want to say about that I don't know I don't want to keep blabbing about that but you have your own reaction to it too we may not feel same yeah well I just think I just realized both of us are wearing maroon so I like this you know yeah know so that's something that's a thing um I also think it is right the sacred Blissful wine yeah yeah yeah I I think it's also influence man you know that not everybody has the influence on them to take that step to even know what that step would be to recognize that that step is there so like missing an opportunity you can only miss it if if you realized it was there yeah yeah yeah you know what I'm saying and for many people fortunately that opportunity is there it really is and I agree with you but I think there is also a large crosssection and that probably tends to be lower socioeconomic type folks that may not have as much influence to open them up to that you know like the influence may actually be moving them away away from that thing away from those kinds of personal development um types of opportunities that's obstacle number five too right exact that's that's why I mentioned it so I IO yeah and I and I do but I legitimately feel you know because then and and I just think of you know some of the places that I've lived in like watching you know children of V of of various races um you know just Cheetos and Pepsi and Kool-Aid for snacks it a a life like that when you're when that is your nourishment at a young age that is going to remain a staple in your diet unless you are really hit with something deep you know to force you to change and and I'm not picking on those particular snacks but they are not good food for your brain or your body you know what I'm saying and so those kinds of influences over people over a long periods of time really move you away from I think these possibilities you know and and I like to call them possibilities because it's anything is there if you decide to go down you know that road I I don't want to kill your flow on it but the only thing about that is I don't know people who have a lot of money do a whole heck of a lot better on this no no question I think their opportunity I think they I I think and I'm not it's not again it's not a clear I'm not saying it's clearcut I'm just saying I think those people who have more means are exposed to more things just by virtue of their zip code you know yeah I mean I don't know if they do that much better I think they do by by this standard by what llama yes is saying I think D do just is crappy sure I'm just saying there one of them has a little bit more we agree that there's more opportunities for people who have more yeah more you know money exposure yes yes right I'm not saying that that's not true yeah yeah that's what that's what I'm saying is more like I can't say people who have a lot more resources are doing a heck of a lot better I don't think they really are by this criteria Yeah Yeah by this criteria so I mean I guess at the end at the end of it it's like if you get if you're here if you're listening and you're hearing and not that you know we're any kind of great anything um feel pretty lucky you know feel pretty lucky because that these kinds of conversations don't fit into the the normal discourse of you know blame Republican blame Democrat you know Trump bad Biden bad you know whatever this President bad this you know look what this one did you know whatever that fits we could do a podcast on this and we'd be very you know I definitely would have some hot takes Eric would have some hot takes you know we would have um you know 700,000 listeners as opposed to just 100,000 and that would be you know that would be something different 600,000 more yeah right it's it's you know it's a big it's a big jump but that kind of like discourse is already avail ailable so we don't people don't need to turn to us for those kinds of conversations to stimulate their mind in that way but this is the kind of conversation that stimulates us that brings us you know deep passion in exploring further and then having a discourse on you know well okay listen if you get all you we like to go personal so from my point personally definitely I wouldn't be saying you know if someone has economic limitations or you know like obviously we have a lot of compassion for all of that so it's no way like looking at that but I don't that's why I think it's important to say that I don't think that like Again by this criteria anyone's doing that much better but the thing is I really care about this thing of people getting enlightened I really really care about this a lot if you ask me like what's one of the most core things I care about it's that for myself and others right I mean that's the thing that I care about if I incarnated here for a reason it was to do that right like that's the only reason for me to be here other I got no particular reason to be here you know personally and so if I look at and then I don't want it to be this way but if I look at it honestly I do have to like this is the the doctory part of me this is a diagnostician you know I mean as opposed to someone walking around trying to like give a bunch of [...] to people that's not my intention at all yeah yeah yeah this is diagnostic just going hey it looks like this is what's happening you know if he had to ask for an honest diagnosis I would say this is what the diagnosis is I suppose in the same way that like Lama yes is saying the same thing with his diagnosis he's making a diagnosis and I'm like yeah I think there's like truth in your diagnosis right and M is I think what I've been thinking about and are doing these podcasts especially over the last year or so has been like I don't think it's that the opportunities don't come from the Universe I think they do right I think the universe is trying right hard to help us find things I don't think you can blame it on the universe you have to like you know point the fingers back at us right the fault is not in the Stars oh that's so America you it's so American of you to own it to own it I know it's American or not but it should be owned there you go yeah I agree I agree I it should be owned right I think we have to like look at it like say that it's like it's like that and that's not again it's not like any more judgmental if you're just making a diagnosis as a clinician this is a Clin clinical thing it's not a it's not hey let me like give people a hard time or whatever that's not the point at all if I look at it honestly I wish it wasn't [...] like this but I think it is yeah I mean I think I think it's because like people are so like it's it's the people are so amhed in the samsaric ways of thinking that it's just it is what it is and I don't like it I wish it wasn't the case but it's painful for me to have to like sit here and say yeah that probably is in many ways the case and it makes it a lot harder for me to complete the mission project of this project for me which is something like yes you can build a life within the samsara within the difficulties of the mundane world you can build an extraordinary world for yourself it's not that easy if what's really happening is everything's being limited by subaric ways of thinking all over the place it's hard so let's let let's maybe move our conversation in a in a in a slightly Forward Motion here Eric I to say about give me your thing and then if I want to I'll double back yeah yeah so okay so somebody is they agree for a sake of argument they agree with what you know the premise of this right that there are opportunities in people's lives that they they they they don't take they choose not to take they're unaware of whatever the case is but let's just say we can't talk to those people we're going to continue to do this and hopefully they they hear it from us or somebody else whenever their time that the the light bulb goes on that's when the light that's the time that it's supposed to happen for them okay fine but now we're talking to the people who are who the light bulb is on and they're walking down a path with their little torch their little light bulb right and they're wanting to go somewhere what you know and they're saying okay you know Eric like I understand I hear what you're saying about Society I feel this pressure to be something that I'm not to do things that I don't want to do I understand the necessity to eat food and live and whatever but like outside of those require of those you know basic requirements what else can I do what should I do what are the next steps right we've talked about you know various Tech techniques of like using manttra using using visualizations ym or you know I call them yantra um of using kind of like you know the aspects of mind ofen control of your attention moving of your attention to change your perspective and give you a a new sense of of being a different sense of being like what what out like what what other steps or what other kind of mov make you answer that first you frame that whole question you answer it okay I'll give an answer like from my but like you framed it so you got to answer that one first not give you my opinion afterwards but like you said whole scenario so yeah so where basically where does someone like where does somebody go once they have desire to begin and I don't have a really great answer I think it depends on your personality right first if you are a very um structured individual than I would say creating a structure in your life life where you can create time and space to practice these things probably seems like a logical step I mean I would say that for anybody but you know depending on where people are I will sometimes let them experiment with different times a day different lengths of time meditating or you know whatever and let them find the place that they settle at Naturally um I think personally it's best to have set times because it just you you build your life around it uh if you leave it up to chance then it it might go to chance but know some people don't want to be told what to do so I understand there's difference in personality but I would say first is finding a time finding a time or creating a time and a space to be able to practice this and then the other part would be um to pay attention and if you pay attention via like journaling if that helps you you know then you could do that if you pay attention via like creative projects you know to see I know so many of my like friends and patients uh have been doing like Pottery you know over the last couple years they really like Pottery but what's really beautiful is that like we talked about this sort of spinning technique in the mind we talked about in the first episode I think we call that the mischievous mind and then we talked about it again when we did the Mantra um that this kind of twirling this whirling but and people who get involved you know again because it's the the wheel when you're doing Pottery is spinning and so they get they get trapped into that meditation of seeing the wheel spinning and so when I introduce some of these techniques to them they're like oh yeah done I got it like they they totally feel it and and there's a physical sensation to it you know what I'm saying so they can relate to that very easily so finding something that can help you be reflective that can give your mind uh an opportunity to be present on one particular thing that is both naturally flowing from you like like in writing like in artwork or something like this and Crea and creative at the same time and so you know you talked Eric a while back about like the three sort of pillars of like Zen monk practice right having a meditative art uh creative art and a martial art and and I've mentioned this to many people uh and of course we could take numerous uh different tracks on on those three things your your Martial Art could just be some exercise or walking or something like this you know but something to do for the phys physical body the meditative art can be practiced in numerous different ways like today we're talking about yantra or about you know yidm last week we were talking about Mantra the week before we're talking about like controls of controlling the raise of your attention something like this or or some Zen practice that we've talked about in years past or like you just mentioned meditating on um syllables or connecting to the energy of the the pure energy of the universe however and then the the creative art allowing yourself to be uh closer to a flow State and maybe even if your art is you know decent enough and you've been doing it for a while you could be in a flow state of just sort of you and your expression are simultaneous like you happen together so this is probably what I would say yeah it's like I um can't disagree with any of that right oh good I suppose the idea is I those are all great things to do right yes I suppose the idea that's being raised here is like where are the mundane conception and appearance are those so maybe the thing to figure out is to look at your life and say okay where is my life being limited by mundane conceptions and appearances yeah myself or the way that I think of the circumstances around me or the choices that I make that like emphasize those right it's a hard question but maybe that's the other one that has to be asked with it are the exception appearances right that's a good point yeah so because I mean if you get to where the doam is saying he's saying that's the primary question right are you going to overcome those or not right and I guess it's almost like two different levels of answer which are both good right right one hand it's like okay let me let's get let's get pragmatic like which I think is like what you're saying right let's get pragmatic what are pragmatic things do right so I would say okay find whatever it is as a spiritual practice that you happen the love right you know go through and then find the aspects of that that speak to you and follow them right and keep following them keep digging like don't stop keep going right even have to have to keep moving keep moving right yeah you know keep searching for the things that actually speak to you and you know so you know that's part of like the Practical answer of things right you might have to go and go and try a Zen thing and be like n that wasn't for me you know I'll go and I'll go to some you know like a Buddhist thing well the other thing that wasn't for me maybe I'll do something else you know whatever it is you have to do you have to keep exploring in right but like the thing that's being brought up here is the mundane conception and appearance thing like that's the thing that's being brought up yeah you might have to ask yourself like and where is it in my life that I'm being limited by con mundane conception and appearances that might be the thing that's being brought up right because that's the thing and we're talking about the Yom right yeah yeah that's the thing that the yam's trying to overcome right so I mean if the theme of the episode is about the ym then the thing would be like okay so you can find a ym that you like and like get an empowerment in that you know but the thing that got so the thing that again like if I get to the part of it that's kind of bugging me and again it's like by wanting to be honest and doing this this thing that we're doing I really want to believe that it's possible to build a nons samsaric existence within the samsara that can be an enlightening thing and like we're all chipping awaited but I have to like again be kind of honest about this and say yeah it's it's not this it's it's more difficult because I think there's so much of the limit Inc conceptions and appearances that are going on for people right does limit the possibilities of what can get done and I wish it wasn't like that and I like I had one other thing about this that was kind of deep I'll throw it out and it's sitting at the end of the episode I suppose yeah yeah but it's a tough one so I'll throw it at you down you can tell me what I think and then people can hear it and I don't know what else to say about it but it is a difficult thing I would say on some level what I'm really contemplating again going super personal on it is like I spent a lot of time in my life kind of building up this Eric person that I am right I came from kind of like an abusive background I came up from a pretty tough background I was like sick a lot I didn't come from like a privileged the place you know uh so you know it was a lot of scrapping right to kind of like Get out of my teens into my 20s and so on so I started doing the Zen I started doing the psychology and I started working at like who I thought I was right an authentic version of myself and I chipped away at that and in the end I felt like okay I I know what I think about life I know what I think about the world I know what I believe is true I know who this Eric person is right but if I'm honest with myself about it and this is tough if I'm honest with myself about it has that solved the the dooka problem to what extent has that solved the Dua problem and it solved parts of it you know what I mean but when I think about it in all honesty it's also it's a tough thing because because I like this Eric I made an Eric that I like I emanated something that I like a personal version of myself that I like but hasn't really solved the dooka problem if I was like being totally Buddhist honest as it solved the Dua problem and then part of me would have to say no Dua meaning suffering suffering and the reason why is because this Eric person that I became is a very true version of myself and if I'm like I'm H about a probably pretty openhearted loving caring kind of a person like a person I could be proud of you know what I mean and that was the result of some work it wasn't like you know I was like that kind of person before it was actual work to become a person that you feel good about yourself we all do that right we can all relate to that I don't feel so good about myself the way L is saying I work at myself I feel better by myself right but the person that I became who I believe in who I think is true doesn't fit in this samsara very well right it doesn't fit necessarily that well with SAR quality of you know what life is like what the culture is like these kinds of things it doesn't fit very well right yeah so it hasn't actually fully solve the problem in a way and when I had to like look at myself kind of tough and I don't even know where this goes and some of the things we've been talking about because it's such a deep question but what I kind of I'm starting to realize is like no you know probably this Eric person has to go too right and probably in part I have to become the ym even more so right and that's probably like the point now on some level that even this person that I became that I like you know because I didn't always like myself and now I do even that person probably has to go to really get to the root of this you know and that's a deep thought it's a little bit scary on some level right to have to think about that but it's been on my mind so I thought I would just throw it out for discussion right and it's so deep I don't even know where it we go with it totally but it's something I have thought about related to the yam because what I realized was that you when you become the yidam then the Eric problems disappear and that's a weird and deep thought but since we're talking about what you can do to overcome the suffering of the mind which is what we've been talking about I have to realize like yeah that is true on some level and I think that's what llama Y is talking about I think that's what the Daly Lama's talking about now that's a deep point and it's not like something that everybody's going to Vibe with but it is like it's a deep thing and in all honesty I think like yeah that's something I really have to think about and that seems to be the more ultimate the more ultimate answer to a question right it's hard right now maybe on the more like everyday level it might be more like boy like I'm this version of whoever I am I like that version of who this is I better like transition this forward and transform this forward I think that is a noble Enterprise to do and maybe we all can relate to that I look at myself in the mirror now I've had this experience too right looking at myself saying I don't like this Eric nah I don't like this person you know and feel like you have to transform and make yourself into a better version of yourself that may be something we all can relate to you know what I mean I'm finding myself in a different point where I'm saying like Okay well I worked on this Eric for a long time I like this Eric but still I can't say that if I was being honest and I was trying to emulate what budoo was doing which was putting the challenge of like how do you end suffering right that's the challenge he throws out to us how do you end suffering in a real way becoming this authentic version of me feels a lot better you know I'm not gonna lie I would recommend it to everybody right be who you are right become who you are look at yourself in the mirror and if you feel like I don't like that then work on yourself and become a better version of who you are something that speaks more truly to who you are you're going to feel better I think that's 100% true you what I mean so if that's a piece of advice that's a piece of advice that we can all start with wherever we're from you know what I mean if I look at myself then I feel like okay I tried to do that and I tried to be honest with what I thought about the world what I thought about myself what I thought about different parts of life and I I try to manifest I try to emanate that in the Lama yes sense I'm going to emanate that but has it solved the the total problem I have to be honest like it hasn't right and that bothers me too if I can come up with a better answer G in tears I will just being honest you know and so what I realized was like yeah part of the thing is like this TARC demand that you in in an ultimate sense you have to do what L yes is saying probably even that version of yourself that you like you might have to like okay I'm gonna let part of that go and I'll try to become Tara right I'll try to become mry you know it seems to be the way it seems to be the way the cookie crumbles you know what I mean and it bugs me I wish it wasn't totally like this but I have to admit that in parti I have to say that that's true you know and I don't totally love it I like Eric even though other people think he's an [...] I like him that's right you know I worked on this [...] dude for a long time to become this person right I help I do help people and I do do things that are good and all that I mean I like I could say my life is paid off in that way but if I'm honest about it there's still a problem this Eric doesn't fit in this culture he's a different kind of being doesn't VI that well I've tried to go through and say well let me go through and build Special connections special things build a special life that's much more outside of the cultural frame but it's very difficult right and to the extent that that causes difficulties I have to admit like oh yeah maybe the thing is you have to become this yidm in the way lames is saying otherwise this [...] doesn't end you know I don't like it but it might be how it is so anyway I threw it out there it's the deepest thing I can say about the UNM thing from where I'm at because I've worked with this for a while for me this Eden practice has been probably 17 18 years you know if I get to it now I'm like yeah you know there's still this thing this weird little buddhy problem right where even if you become a person that you like you clashing with the environment still difficult you know so I'm I'm posing the question I will I will get feedback on how I think it goes fellow G and tears I wish I could give you know like I it's part partially a positive take you know this partially like build up a good version a healthy version of your own self sense of self and then also keep transforming it it's probably the underlying message for me and then maybe the ultimate transformation is what lames is talking about but anyways that's how I would think about the ym it's a deep thing but I thought I would share it it is a deep thing yeah yeah it's also a showstopper it is definitely a showstopper there's like nothing to say about that no I mean I have I definit have thoughts but we I don't want to you know that's a that's a completely different topic one one that one that needs its own air so we'll leave it I mean it's it's a certain sense of saying like you got to get enlightened yes you got to get enlightened until you get enlightened there's going to be problems you know and like it's it's uh I wish it wasn't like that I really do you know but myself that's the honest answer let's leave it as a query for folks and we'll see if we uh pick it back up next week a little bit Yeah well yeah it's it's it's tough question but I wanted I wanted to be honest in this episode because we were talking about and I've been thinking about this question of what the EDM does it's definitely an antidote for suffering it really is you know but it also involves this weird thing of like recognizing like well you know it's a it's a it's a very strange Act of transformation yeah but probably how it's probably true right yeah which basally means get enlightened right let's do that together folks that sounds like a good time let's all [...] get get enlightened sounds good to me sounds good to me all right thanks it's kind of a weird subject matter but I wanted to bring it up yeah no it's all good well Eric thank you as always for being on the ride with me my friend uh and to our audience thank you so much for tuning in whether you're on H YouTube or uh whatever audio platform you enjoy we uh definitely appreciate the love like comment subscribe share our work uh hit us up Jin and Tantra gmail.com or on Instagram at the Jin and Tantra podcast uh drop a like or slide to our DMS you know we appreciate uh all the mck loving um and to our International audience what's up we we definitely hear from folks from time to time so we appreciate the the love from all over the globe same issues man just you know different zip code I don't know if they have ZIP codes in other other countries country codes maybe area codes I don't know whatever um there's a song by ludicrous that you know I could bring up but we won't right now but if you know it then you could sing it to yourself um but uh until we see you guys next time this is Eric I'm Daniel that's Eric you know how I say things backwards once in a while it's uh it's it's a it's a staple we're like all like a big mish mash interc connectivity that's true I'm human for other humans I am you and you as me as we are me and we are all together I think that's right we are the wusu yeah there we go there you go yeah but uh either way for whoever I am and whoever this guy is we'll see you guys in the next one peace yeah [Music]